When You Know Better, You Do Better (with Dr. Traci Baxley and Kelly Krout)

On today’s episode, Rachel Vindman, Amanda Weinstein, and special guest host Malynda Hale talk about social justice parenting. They discuss how you first have to acknowledge your own inherent biases and your discomfort before you can have meaningful conversations with your kids about social justice. We hear more about Malynda’s inspiring tweet thread about interracial marriage in response to Senator Mike Braun’s comments at Judge Jackson’s hearings, and everyone expresses their disbelief and outrage over right wing hypocrisy regarding Ginni Thomas.

Then Kelly Krout joins us to talk about parenting, fostering kids, politics, and more. Kelly has become a sensation on TikTok for her relatable videos about running for office in Arkansas. She’s also written children's books about the foster care system, proving once again just how important it is for kids to have books that reflect their lived experiences. Kelly is funny, energetic, wise, and an all-around delight.

After that, Rachel sits down with Dr. Traci Baxley to talk about her book, Social Justice Parenting: How To Raise Compassionate, Empathetic, Justice-Minded Kids in an Unjust World. Dr. Baxley and Rachel chat about what exactly social justice parenting is, why sheltering our kids is the wrong approach, and how the only way to really get social justice parenting wrong is to never even start.

Finally, Rachel, Amanda and Malynda raise a glass to family, to finding time for an at-home date night, and to meeting Dr. Fauci in this week’s “Toast to Joy.”

If you’re  tired of extremists banning books, you should check out Red Wine and Blue’s virtual Read-In on Thursday April 7. The event will be hosted by Stella Parton (that’s right, Dolly Parton's sister!) and feature some amazing authors of banned books, including past pod guests Lesléa Newman and Brad Meltzer. More info and registration can be found here.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 12

Rachel Vindman: Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman.

Amanda Weinstein: I’m Amanda Weinstein. 

Malynda Hale: I’m Malynda Hale, filling in for Jasmine Clark.

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. Welcome back to the podcast, Malynda. We're so happy to see you again. Amanda interviewed you last year so I'm glad I get the chance to chat with you today also. 

Malynda: Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Rachel: Today we are talking about social justice parenting. I sat down with Dr. Traci Baxley, the author of Social Justice Parenting: How To Raise Compassionate Anti-Racist Justice-Minded Kids in an Unjust World.

Amanda: Ooh, Ted Cruz would lose it if he knew we were talking about this. 

Rachel: I mean, just reading the title, I feel like I am just completely triggering so many people. I absolutely love saying it. I was reading it on a plane and I wasn't reading on a Kindle and I wish I had like the real book because I just wanted to carry it around, like seeing what people, like their reactions if they saw the title, because it's that kind of a book. And I'm that person.

Anyway. Later we will be joined by Kelly Krout, a mom in Arkansas who's gone viral on TikTok for her videos about what it's like to run for office. Kelly has fostered kids, adopted kids, written children's books, and now she's running for Lieutenant Governor. So I have a million questions for her about how that works. But Malynda, you host the #WeNeedToTalk podcast. And you were also a guest on season one of our pod about combating burnout. Um, so how's life been treating you since the last time we saw you?

Malynda: Oh, I haven't really combated burnout since then.

Amanda: It's a goal.

Malynda: There's never an end. It's a goal. I don't know if it's attainable, but it's definitely a goal, but things are good. Keeping busy, you know, with my podcast, with music and with the company that I run and all those things. I have pared, all jokes aside, I have pared down some of the, my responsibilities because you know, I have a daughter now she's two, and I want to be able to spend more time with her. So I'm not traveling as much as I normally would have been being a singer, being a performer. So it is nice to be home and working for myself from home. So I've reined it in a little bit. 

Amanda: Oh, that's not easy to do. I love that Connie Schultz on our podcast talks about like saying “not now.” I really love that. I was like, oh, I can say not now. That's nicer than no. 

Malynda: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think being able to like do my podcasts from home and then have her be here, it’s been the greatest thing. But the podcast in the last couple of years for me has really grown a lot just in the conversations that I've had. You know, I love that we’re having a conversation on social justice parenting, you know, being a mom and being a part of the social justice movement, that’s something that's very dear to my heart. But it's funny because I wouldn't even view it as social justice parenting. I just view as this is just good parenting. Just teaching your kids about other people, teaching them how to love, teaching them how to be compassionate and all of that. That is just good parenting without the social justice attached to it.

But I talk about things like that on my podcast a ton, and it's called we need to talk because I focus on the things that we truly do need to talk about. I don't really shy away from any topics whatsoever. 

Rachel: Nor should you.

Malynda: Exactly. 

Rachel: So I think that is like, that's part of what I would define as social justice parenting, because, you know, when I was growing up, I was kind of taught to shy away from a lot of those subjects, if they make people uncomfortable, or if there's going to be some disagreement that you just shouldn't talk about it. And that it was, I mean, I was taught to do the right thing, but not to talk about it. We've changed that conversation and I'm glad we have. 

Amanda: Well, I think that's also a Republican strategy to not have that conversation. Right? Look at the Don't Say Gay bill. They want us not having these conversations. So even just saying, we need to talk about something is hugely like social justice activist, like pushing against Republicans because they want us not to talk about all of these things.

Rachel: Right. They want us to go back to where we didn't talk about it. I mean, to the eighties and before, I mean, really like that would be a perfect world for them because then that's, that's when I grew up, that's when we didn't talk about these things. 

Amanda: And they don't want to talk about too, cause they don't want to be held accountable for the times that maybe they showed their biases and made it very clear to everyone when they said the quiet part out loud. They don't want to be held accountable for being a racist baby, if that's what they happen to be— ahem Ted Cruz. 

Rachel: But you know, I don't know. I don't understand this. We can remember people, both my parents have passed away, so I can't even discuss this with them, but I have a grandmother who's alive and she's 95 and I talk about it with her. And it's not like I'm saying, “you’re a horrible person for believing what you were taught and what everyone around you believed.” But when she learned about things, when she thought about it, she did better and she changed her views. So I think that actually requires a lot more growth. So I don't understand why they don't want to talk about it. And part of me wonders if it's just… political theater. Apparently people don't like that term political theater, but—

Malynda: It's true though. I agree that it is that, but I think in just like with your grandma, I think that's a really great example because in order to get on the other side of it, you have to fully acknowledge that you even have it within you in the first place. If you don’t acknowledge that it's even there, then you're never going to get to the point of being like fully anti-racist for example. And they're not willing to do that work because it is a lot of inner work to acknowledge, “I've had these racist thoughts. I've had these, you know, homophobic thoughts. I've had these misogynist thoughts.” I want to be a better person. Let me figure out how to erase all of those, those mindsets. It's just, they don't want to do the work. They're lazy. 

Amanda: I think that's such a good point because you can take implicit bias tests, I think it's Harvard or something where you can take these tests and you can find out where your implicit bias are. And I love that. I think even when we had Cory Booker on, he talked about how he has implicit biases. We all have implicit biases that we might not realize. And knowing that we have these biases and they might show up in ways we don't recognize. I feel like as a way that people can do it more comfortably, but I love how you brought up Malynda, how you brought up the importance of knowing those biases exist.

Like you can't do anything about it if you don't admit to these biases existing. And research shows, the more you think that you're unbiased, the more biased you actually are, which I find pretty interesting. 

And this actually really applies to my field of economics. So economists tend to think of themselves as the purely rational, unbiased thinkers. Right. Data-driven and it turns out, economics as a field is, uh, one of the top fields for exhibiting discrimination against women and minorities. And it's in part because they think they're so unbiased. When you think you're so unbiased, that's where the bias is going to creep in and creep in and creep in and creep in and economics has really been facing a reckoning because of all the biases that they show. But they think that they don’t.

Rachel: Again, so much of this work though is on ourselves and it's our values. Our values that we take with us to the ballot box, who we vote for, and the little humans that you raise, they’re going to go out and be part of those movements as well. 

Amanda: Oh, speaking of little ones, Malynda, I saw a picture of your little one on Twitter recently, who is adorable. Malynda, you should tell us also about the tweet you did after Senator Mike Braun’s comments. 

Malynda: Yeah, so, oh Lord. Okay. So Senator Mike Braun, um, you know, during the confirmation hearings with Judge Ketanji Brown Jackso, who is in an interracial marriage, you know, he brought up how he didn't want to have a Supreme Court Justice activist. And that, um, you know, certain things shouldn't be left with the Supreme Court— like abortion and interracial marriage. He thinks those specific things, those are the two things that he said in his statement should be left to the states. 

Now, of course, I disagree with him. I've been in an interracial marriage for the last 10 years. Been together 12 years. We have a biracial daughter. Um, she's, you know, obviously you're going to be a Black woman, but she is biracial. And so I did a tweet on Twitter and I said, you know where are all my interracial relationships and marriages, I just want Senator Braun to see something. And we got, I got thousands of replies of just these beautiful relationships that were based on love and committed to love. And every single one of those was an example that Senator Braun was basically against. 

And so it's, it's, it's interesting to me, his comment because one, it was very offensive to say, when the judge that you are confirming or doing the hearings for is also in an interracial relationship, it was completely a direct blow to her.

And I think that that was very obvious, but also I just don't understand the point or the reasoning behind it, you know, and I wanted to turn it around because it's easy to get upset and it's easy to get mad and it's easy to tweet something, you know, responding to him in a negative way, but I wanted to do it that in a way full of love. And I think it gave a lot of people encouragement. And it, I love that, you know, the thread that just seeing all these different couples and all this diversity in love, and it's such a beautiful thing. And it's just, you know, that's the type of thing that I've always stood for. So I was really happy to have so many people respond and feel the same way. It was really a beautiful thing.

Amanda: I loved it. And I loved seeing all of the pictures of all the couples. It was so awesome. I looked through it—

Rachel: Me too.

Amanda: And it was so easy to share, and I love that you combated what was pretty hateful, I thought, with a huge amount of love and it was awesome. I loved that strategy to combat that.

Rachel: I, I still can't believe it was said. I mean, I just can't believe it. But speaking of interracial marriages and Supreme Court Justices, I would like to talk about Ginni Thomas. 

Amanda: Ooh. Yeah. 

Rachel: So this is such like a gymnastics thing that they do. I don't understand it. I guess it's okay because she's on their team of trying to apparently overthrow a free and fair election? And I'm rarely speechless, but I mean, to see her text messages to Mark Meadows, the president's chief of staff, talking about all the stupid QAnon stuff and Stop The Steal… 

Malynda: Yeah, I'm in the same boat. It was something else. I was surprised just like you.

Amanda: She believed it though. Like you can tell she believed it. 

Rachel: And here she is married to a Supreme Court Justice. Everyone's acting like, oh, it's fine. It's no big deal. I mean, they just separate what they believe and, or he doesn't listen to her. And I don't know, again, lots of, lots of just mental gymnastics to justify what they want to just. 

Malynda: I, yeah, I think it's always different when it's for them. You know, I can't even imagine if this were on the democratic side, what the response would be and how people would be acting, but because it's, for them, it's, it's completely fine. And not a big deal.

Rachel: This past weekend, Alex and I were privileged to be invited to the Gridiron dinner and it's like kind of a journalist thing and they have skits that are quite funny. And I mean, some are funnier than others, but they do skits, bipartisan, making fun of each side and they try not to be too pointed. Well there were lots of skits and jokes about Ginni Thomas' text messages. I get it, and it's funny, but it almost felt like it was too soon. And we should not, we should, we should be taking it seriously. Not making fun of it. If that, if that makes sense. Like, that was kinda my, my reaction.

But it was a fun evening. I have to say, I was thinking when you were talking about stepping back and you know, doing other things, Malynda, I was privileged to meet Jen Psaki. And also, um, I sat next to the First Lady’s deputy comms director, and both of them, I had to, I got to have a conversation about the decisions we make as women professionally, and how that affects our families and our career. And I told both of them, separately, you make the decision that's best for you right now and I really do think it will be the right decision. Even if it's hard later, it's still going to be the right decision. 

And I think we need to, you know, have more grace for ourselves and also fellow women in the choices that they make. Because some would, you know, continue keep climbing that ladder and girl do it, like go for it. But if you want to step off and stay home, that's okay too. You know, we are looking always, always looking for good normal people to run for office. And I personally think that women are very qualified to run for office as you know, um, no, I'm not running. You don't even need to ask. I'm not running for anything. But our next guest, Kelly Krout, IS running for Lieutenant Governor.

So on that note, let's bring in our troublemaker. Kelly, welcome to the podcast!

Kelly Krout: Oh, that's the most fun intro so far. Okay! 

Rachel: So, okay. You're a mom, including a foster mom. You work for change in your community. You've written children's books. But that wasn't enough and you decided to run for office also. Where do you get the energy?

Amanda: Is it a lot of coffee? 

Kelly: It is. I do drink an excessive amount of caffeine, but I, I find energy in the things that I'd love to do. Now to be fair, we’re no longer an open foster home. We did foster for quite a while. We adopted a few kids out of the system.

Malynda: Just a couple! 

Kelly! Not even half of them, you know! But yeah, we, we find the energy though in the things that we like to do, at least at least I do. So I don't say yes to every single thing, but I do say yes to the things that I really love and I find, I find it to be gratifying. 

Amanda: I love that. So I have a friend who says, she only says yes if she 90% wants to do a thing. And she's like, that's a pretty high bar if you think about it, like if it's an 80% want to do it, she says, no. 

All right, Kelly, today, we're talking about social justice parenting and you have seven sons, I believe?

Kelly: I do. 

Amanda: And even more kids you've helped through the foster system. What kinds of conversations have you had with your kids about social justice?

Kelly: You know, we've, we've kind of followed along with things that happen in the news and then with things that were happening with foster children at the time, and just tried to kind of answer questions, um, as they, as they came along, you know, so foster parenting opens the window for a lot of conversations about social justice.

You know, what's going on with this family? Why do we even have these kids? And I think the gut reaction for a lot of people, when they realize that a family is having a hard enough time that their children have been removed is to judge that parent. And so being able to pause and be like, you know, what, why, why do you think that they were having a hard time? What, what situation are they in that allowed this situation to happen in the first place? And so the, the lifestyle that we've kind of chosen has allowed us to get teed up for a lot of these conversations in a fairly, fairly graceful way. 

Malynda: Has there been a specific conversation that was the hardest to have with any of your kids?

Kelly: Um, you know, there's, there's been a lot of, of scenarios, you know, when you, when you're dealing with any kind of physical abuse and, with a child, that can be a really difficult thing to explain. And that's one of the harder ones to understand what a person is coming from. But we, we say all the time, like in foster care training type circles and it applies to any, and every situation: all behavior makes sense in context. So is it ever okay for an adult to hurt a child? Absolutely not. Can we understand where this person was coming from? Yeah, we can actually, if we, if we step back and can take off a judgmental lens and realize this person was incredibly stressed, they don't have the kind of supports they need, they were maybe struggling with addiction. You know, it doesn't justify things, but we can at least step back and be understanding and gracious in that. And then start looking for solutions.

Malynda: And even just kind of picking back on what you said, you know, a lot of those elements that foster kids go through in the system, it deals with, it's a lot of trauma that they're dealing with. And you've even written a few books about that. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Kelly: Yeah. So after we had been fostering, and then we adopted a couple of, of younger ones who were not quite at the level of understanding yet to really get, like, why am I not with my other parents? You know, what's going on here? I wanted to write some books that helped explain things on an age appropriate level and to help my own children understand my, not only to my adopted children, but also my younger kids that were still part of our fostering. You know, it, fostering is a family thing, you do this altogether. And so helping my biological kids understand, Hey, these kids are gonna live with us for a little while, while their parents get some help and then they might go back or they might not. And here's kind of some of the options as to how that turns out.

And they were pretty well received. Like people were like, oh, well this is not a resource that we had access to. And I'm really honored, they’ve been used by, you know, school therapists and counselors to kind of help, help kids understand what they're going through and just see themselves in a book like, Hey, there are other families that are walking through. I'm not the only one not living with my mom or, you know, things like that. 

Rachel: This is our favorite topic. Kelly. We love for children to see themselves represented in books. Even if there's no one they know right around them to see themselves in a book is still very, very powerful. Now, speaking of children, you are what my 11 year old aspires to be in her wildest dreams: A TikTok sensation. I don't ever go on TikTok, I must confess. So I have to ask why TikTok and then why do you think that your videos resonate with people? 

Kelly: So, well, okay. Fair question. So why TikTok is a solid question. I downloaded TikTok at the beginning of the pandemic, like half of the world did, cause I was depressed, honestly. I was like, I'm stuck here at home. You know, what are we going to do? And I was a new candidate. I was running for state representative at the time and I was just sorta trying to figure out what, how do I be a candidate in the first place? And then how do I be a candidate during a pandemic?

And I'm scrolling around on TikTok and I'm trying to kind of figure out what we're going to do. And I realized, you know what, nobody knows how to be a candidate during a pandemic. So I'm just going to go rogue and we're going to do what we're going to do. I'm going to meet people where they're at, because where are they? They're at home on their phones. And so I started making some TikTok content that I was mostly just putting on other platforms, honestly, cause nobody was following me on TikTok.

And I noticed every time I was having conversations about the second amendment, they were always going the exact same way. And I was getting kind of frustrated with some misconceptions and misunderstandings. And so I made this video of like me talking to myself, like a conservative version of myself and, and myself and presented a conversation in a way that I wished it would go. Like, "oh, I thought Democrats thought this. And I thought so-and-so thought this. And then, you know, actually all I really want is this.”

And the video kind of took off. And I told my campaign manager, I was like, I maybe didn't mention, I've been campaigning on TikTok, but maybe like a million people saw. So you should know I was wearing like gym shorts on my closet floor, but whatever. And, uh, it, it allowed me to start having conversations like that in a relatable way. 

And that's why I think it has worked. That's why I think it takes off because people find politics to be kind of inaccessible and a little bit elite. And when you can kind of make something digestible in a short form and make it educational and give people action steps, people want to be involved. They just don't necessarily want to do all the work of who to follow and what do I need to do and where do I need to go? So I'm able to bring it straight to them in a way that is not overwhelming. And I think that's why it's been pretty well received. 

Amanda: Okay. I need to look at this TikTok video because my husband recently tweeted about how you have to have a license to fish in Ohio, but you don't need a license for concealed carry and man did the second amendment people come out for that tweet. And I was like, whoa, hi, hey, nice to meet all of you. I haven't talked to you before. 

Kelly: There’s always going to be some haters. I was just telling somebody this morning, it doesn't matter what kind of positive light content you put out there, someone will find a reason to criticize you for it. So there's certainly some downfalls of using social media, but the vast majority of it is, is really positive and uplifting. And people seem really thankful to have access to it. 

Amanda: So as a political spouse, I love when I can involve my kids, because sometimes with the campaign schedule, it means that there's a lot of times where they have babysitters or at my mom's house. So anytime I can involve my kids, I love it. So I know on your videos, you've also been able to involve your kids. So can you talk about involving your kids in your campaign? 

Kelly: Absolutely. And, you know, I try, I do try to be careful with it because I we've spent a lot of time teaching critical thinking skills here. Like, I don't want you to think what I think, just because you heard me say it. And if I hear my kids spouting off something political, I might say, hold, hold the phone. I want you to back up and tell me why you believe that. I want to know what the other side believes, and I want you to be able to back it up because the last thing I want is my kids spouting off things that they don't actually understand.

And so I am choosy about what I include them in as far as campaign stuff that might be stating a stance on something, because should they grow up to disagree with me—which is fine. I'm like as long as you can disagree respectfully and back it up, that's fine— I don't want them to be bitter. Like, did she really put me in a democratic commercial when I was six? You know, like that kind of thing. So I, you know, we share family photos and things like that. And my older ones will sometimes participate with me, just so I feel like they've got a little bit more consent in the process and they've sort of started developing what they, what they really think. 

But, you know, I am a mom. That's a big part of my life. There's a whole lot of kids. We're going to basketball games all the time. That sort of my part time job. And so you can't help but include them to a degree. And thankfully they're really, they're really supportive of mom running. So that's been fun. 

Amanda: I love that. I want more moms in office.

Rachel: If you win Lieutenant Governor and Sarah Huckabee Sanders wins Governor, talk me through your day. 

Kelly: That’s a solid question. And actually one that I get quite a lot, because in Arkansas, they're separate, they're on separate tickets. I'm not running with the democratic governor, like, um, you know, a partnership. But I think what's, what's kind of unique about my campaign. 

And another reason that people find it fairly relatable is that I have not always been fairly liberal. Actually I used to be super conservative and I've kind of gradually shifted over like a 10 or 15 year period and ended up on the other end of the spectrum. And so I very much understand how conservatives think, and there was a, there was a point in my life where that was very much my framework and I absolutely thought I was being the most loving and the most accepting and doing the right thing. Until I started to be exposed to people who were not as protected by some of these policies that I supported as I thought they might be. And then I started kind of questioned like, oh, that's not quite what I thought, what else could be wrong? And so I sort of re-evaluated everything, but that said, I can very much understand where people are coming from because I did, I did think that way, and that's not in like a judgmental way. We're just able to have a conversation.

But, uh, a lot of my platform revolves around prevention rather than reaction. And that's where I think Democrats and Republicans can really get along if we'll try. Cause we're never going to agree on the reaction, but a lot of times we can agree on the prevention. So to answer your question, I think maybe, maybe me and Sarah could be a little bit more mellow than what she is right now. Maybe we could meet in the middle on some things and focus on prevention of some of these issues rather than reaction and yelling about the radical left and, and things like that.

Amanda: And I think in reality, politicians work together more than they let on. But what do you say to people who tell you, why don't you just move to another state? Right? If you're a Democrat, why not move to a state where there are more Democrats and you can get into office easier? 

Rachel: You can move next to Malynda!

Malynda: Ha yes, you could come to California!

Kelly: If I had a dollar for every time I heard “move to California!” It’s ridiculous. 

So the first thing is, and what so many of the candidates are saying right now, we're not a red state. We're a non-voting state. Arkansas is 50th in voter registration and voter turnout. We literally are the worst. Okay. So we had a million people who could have voted in our last election that didn't, so you can flip anything there. So I'm like, let's wait to pick a color. 

And then second, the privilege in being able to just pack up and move because you don't feel like being somewhere where people don't agree with you. Like that is not something that just everybody can do. My family is rooted here. My kids are rooted here and I want to be a part of change in the community that I love. And so I'm not going to just like pack up and leave to find people that agree with me. And there are people that agree with me here. So it's just a matter of finding them. 

And that's another one of the neat pieces of the social media aspect is that that finds you ways to connect with people and empower people in their own communities to connect with other people that feel the same way. So I feel like we're really building kind of a grassroots movement where we're like, Hey, you're not the only one in your little town that thinks that way. We've actually got 15 other volunteers that have signed up that are in your same area and we can kind of help connect these people and get them plugged in. And so I really think we're going to start seeing things shift back soon. 

Rachel: I love that. I think that is so, so important. I mean, just huge, huge to highlight that, uh, we don't move from state to state based on our political beliefs. That's not what the United States is. It's people living in communities agreeing or disagreeing with each other, but finding a way to make it work. Like, I don't think everyone's gonna want fish tacos tonight, but you know what, that's what I'm making and that's what we're going to have. And tomorrow night we can have something else.

Amanda: I mean, I want fish tacos every night. But I think that's very much the story of the suburbs. They’ve been blue for a while, but when you don't know there's anyone with you, you don't come out of the cracks. And then when you see other people, and I think over the pandemic, I think part of what happened to suburbs is we had was our phones and social media, and suddenly it gave us a way to meet people. Just the way that you've done, Kelly, through TikTok and other social media. Like I didn't know there were people like me living just in my neighborhood, just down the street from me, who think like I do! I thought I was the only one! 

Kelly: And a really fun as part of the campaign, you know, we've got t-shirts and we got merch and stuff like that, and people will buy them and then they will bump into each other out and about and be like, “You follow Kelly? Like, oh my gosh, we can be friends because like, we probably think about things the same way!” And it’s so cool to hear some of these stories of people connecting out in the wild because they recognized my stuff! I’m like, I’m getting to be a connector! And this is the neatest thing. Cause I know what it's like to feel like the only person that thinks the way that you do. And so having found these people’s really empowering, so to get to be a part of that for other people is really neat. 

Rachel: Thank you so much for joining us, Kelly. If our listeners want to find you and support you online and buy your merch, how can they do that?

Kelly: I’m pretty easy to find. So you can search Kelly For Arkansas and I'll turn up February. It's Kelly with a Y. And I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and then of course, TikTok is my favorite. It's the most fun of all of them. 

Rachel: Well, everyone should look for her. We'll put the information in our show notes, and now we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have my conversation with Dr. Traci Baxley.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today as a speaker, an educator, a cultural coach and a mom. She's the author of Social Justice Parenting: How To Raise Compassionate Anti-Racist Justice-Minded Kids in an Unjust World. Dr. Traci Baxley, thank you for joining me on The Suburban Women Problem. 

Dr. Traci Baxley: Thank you, Rachel. Thank you for having me.

Rachel: It is truly a pleasure. I just cannot think of a more relevant topic to discuss. And I feel like we should probably talk about this almost every week, because the more we talk about it, the more we demystify these things, the more it becomes part of our regular conversations, the less scary it is for everyone and the more people are used to just talking about things and having those conversations. And then it doesn't have to be hard. 

Traci: I a hundred percent agree with that. 

Rachel: I mean, you know, cause we all want to raise empathetic kids who care about equality and justice. And I just love the idea of social justice parenting and I highly recommended to everyone read your book. It is very readable, lots of relatable subject matter. And I'm excited to, you know, incorporate that into my conversations with my daughter. But can you explain exactly what social justice parenting is and what inspired you to write this work? 

Traci: Yeah. Social justice parenting is really a way that we intentionally and purposely raise our children.

Right. Raise them in a way that they love radically, they show up for other people, they should know how to lead, learn how to show up for themselves. And it's a way that we want to really be proactive and teaching kids to be more compassionate and kind. And I think it too, it requires us as parents to really move through our own fears and move through our own experiences and do a lot of stuff, reflection and honest dialogue about how we create these safe spaces for our kids to be change agents really when they grow up in the world. 

Rachel: Yeah. We need to say that louder for the people in the back. It's about us getting over our fears. And I think part of us getting over our fears in some ways is admitting that we made mistakes along the way. And we don't know everything, but you can still teach when you don't know everything. Like a lot of times I have to Google even fifth, I have to Google fifth grade math. 

Traci: Oh yes. 

Rachel: No shame in my game. I don't know how they're doing it. I don't remember, but I look it up and then I remember, and then I teach it and maybe I'll do better next time I have to divide fractions. And it's, you know, it's been hard enough, I think for all adults to process the last couple of years, or I don't even want to process it, but how should we talk to our kids about something like police violence or the war in Ukraine? How do we have conversations that are honest, but also age appropriate? I know a lot of moms struggle with that. 

Traci: Yeah, I think the first thing we have to recognize is that our kids are absorbing these things whether we talk about them or not, right. They're absorbing stereotypes, prejudice, attitudes, misinformation, um, they're getting it from all over. So if we are allowing kind of the fear of not doing it right, not knowing how to do it, prevent us from speaking with our kids about these hard topics, we really should be more afraid of the messages that they're receiving out in the world. Right? So studies show that children are really kind of, they make assumptions and they make decisions based on the limited knowledge that they have. And so the more that we are giving our kids and we're engaged in those conversations and, um, giving them things to support our values in these, these situations or issues, the more informed that they are going to be. 

And I think instead of denying that these things exist or trying to protect them from it, I think we really need to lean into them more because kids really, they want to know about the world. They want to know how to make things fair. They want to know, their natural curiosity really is about, how do we fix things? So I think what I would say is when we introduce these difficult topics, we make sure it's age appropriate, we try to connect it to something that's familiar, familiar, or relatable in the context, so they can better understand it.

Um, and I think there's, it's always important to follow up on it. Right. So we always want to ask kids open-ended questions. Like, can you tell me more, what do you think about that? Tell me what you know, where did you learn that from? So that we know that what we have to plug into you know, bridge the gaps between what they think they know and what reality really is. But we have to lean in because they're picking it up and we want them to be able to get it from us.

Rachel: I think that's so true. I, I I've been, my daughter is at a different school now and we do a carpool and someone said something in the carpool. And I didn't know how to respond. It was actually about the efficacy of the flu shot, but she did. And I was so proud of her for saying something, but I noticed my fear, my fear paralyzed me because this was someone else's child, you know, and who knows where they got the information. Parents could disagree or could, they could have just heard something, they were repeating it, you know, but, but she, you know, the question she asked is “where did you hear that? Where did you get that information?” And I was like, oh, wow, I love that. 

But, um, you know, what would you say to something more specific? Like, okay, so I'm a white woman and I'm trying to, and I grew up in Oklahoma in the eighties. So not a lot of social justice. So it feels a little inauthentic to me sometimes to have these conversations with my daughter, because no one had these conversations with me. I mean, what do you say to, to a mom like me or to someone who didn't grow up in that world, but wants to do better?

Traci: Yeah. I think the first thing is to give yourself grace, right? Because we’re human more than anything else. Right. And, um, and, and to recognize that it's a journey, right? It's not a linear path, our entry points are as diverse as we are. 

And I think the first thing you really have to do is thinking about going back to that idea of self reflection. So you, you really need to know where your own experiences are and how they have impacted the way that your parent and the way that you're navigating the world. And I think a lot of parents, especially parents where they didn't talk about race in their homes and they're trying to start that now. So I think going in going into that with a little bit of grace for yourself and knowing that you're going to make mistakes and know that it's a learning curve for you and your kids.

And I think when our kids get to see us vulnerable and us learning, it really teaches them the lesson that they don't have to know it. All right. And that on being vulnerable is a part of growth. And it's a part of, of getting better at something. And I think, um, also it's really important that we expose our kids to, to the things that maybe that we fear the most. Right. It could be the simple things, the low hanging fruit, like reading and discussing children's literature with your kids. Um, talking about differences in your own family. Talking about what's fair and unfair in the world. 

So I think there's a lot of ways that we can start, but I think where you start is there's never a wrong place to start because we are in different places in our journey. But I think that not starting is the only way to get it wrong. So I think creating the safe spaces where our kids can have those conversations is really important. 

Rachel: Ah, I love that. Not starting is the only way that you do it wrong. Um, so you've mentioned the doll study and interviews before where Black kids were asked to point to a doll that looked like them and it became part of the Brown vs Board of Education. What can we learn from that study about social justice and parenting? 

Traci: Yes. The doll study is a study that was done by two Black psychologists, they're a husband wife team, and what they did was they brought out different colored dolls for young Black kids from the ages of three to seven years old. And they asked questions about, um, the dolls, like which doll is the most beautiful, which is the mean, which is the ugly doll, which is a doll that looks more like you? 

And all of the students, all of the kids that were a part of that study, they did not want to identify with the Black dolls, right? All the positive traits, they would point to the white dolls, the dolls that were dark, dark skin, um, were the ones that they chose were mean were ugly. And even some of those kids, when the researcher asked them to point to the doll that looked more like them, these kids started crying. Some of them ran out of the room crying because they didn't want to identify with the dark skin dolls. So that is that whole idea of racial socialization, where kids, they realize that being Black was not something positive. And they internalize internalize that even at the age of three, four, and five. 

I think the doll study really showed us, uh, the realities of racial socialization. So that there's studies that really talk about how different groups of parents socialize their children based on the racialized world that they live in. And so there, there, there are five main categories of messages that. That the studies show that parents talk to their kids about. So it's this idea of emphasizing racial pride. Uh, the second one is warning kids about the idea of racial inequities. There's a third message that de-emphasizes the importance of race. So it's more like the colorblind approach to talking about race. The fourth one is mistrusting of ethnic groups. So they're talking about there's that there's some mistrust, whether it's on other people's part or that for them to not trust others. And then the fifth one is that parents are not talking about race and racial issues at all. 

So I think when you looking at the doll study, pick the one or the two of these things that really are a part of how these kids have been socialized around race issues. And so I think we should think about how we are socializing our kids around race and that really silence doesn't work. So when we realize that we're socializing our kids whether we say something or not saying anything. To be clear about the messages that, that that's sending our kids and that the silence of it is also sending a message. It's also teaching our kids. And so I think, um, the doll study shows us that the more we talk about it and the more that we really showed that the importance of Black excellence in the world and not seeing Blacks as something that's just negative, right, to counter some of those messages that we, we lean into that a little bit and we teach our values of about inclusion, acceptance, celebration, and equity in the world. And we have to do that in our practices every day. 

Rachel: I like that so much. So I know you do diversity equity and inclusion consulting for companies, which is, um, pretty popular in a lot of companies today, are there any surprising, like, overlaps that you found between talking to kids and talking to corporate employees?

Traci: Yeah, I think, I don't know if it should be surprising, but it is, but it's the most obvious overlap is really this idea of belonging, right? The need to belong. This idea of a sense of belonging really is… people want to feel accepted and valued. And that's, you know, when you look at it from a racial identity, when you look at it from any identity, right? Adults and children want to be their authentic selves. They want to be heard. They want to be understood. Um, and the, the common thread really is wanting to know that your voice matters and that your unique experiences and your strengths are recognized and they're utilized and that you have intrinsic value.

And I think that's a throughline, um, that you see working with families, that I see working with corporations. That the need to belong, um, and the need to provide space where people can belong is really important. And I think if we can internalize that in our homes and on the job, in the workforce, it really will change the dynamic of our country. If we all felt like we were the providers of spaces of belonging and that where we showed up, there was a space for us to belong. 

And I will say too, one thing that I've found that's changed, I don't know if it's as a result of the pandemic where people's home lives are really kind of more present in their work lives, and this has been like a positive surprise change for me… A lot of the corporations and organizations are not just hiring me to do DEI work, but they're really hiring me to do social justice parenting work with their employees. So it's been really nice to be able to use do anti-racist parenting and social justice parenting with groups of people and in the workplace. So I think employers are really seeing the need to embrace the whole whole person. And that includes them being parents. 

Rachel: Oh, that's wonderful. That's that's yeah, I love that. Well, before we go, we would like to do some rapid fire questions. Hopefully they're easier. Um, are you ready? 

Traci: I’m ready. 

Rachel: Okay. Well, the first one's very easy. What is your favorite comfort food? 

Traci: I would say generally it's French fries, but I also like lean real, real hard into my macaroni and cheese. 

Rachel: I was just with my niece who is a, uh, macaroni and cheese aficionado. So I know all about macaroni and cheese. Um, what was your dream job when you were a kid?

Traci: I always thought I would be a pediatrician. 

Rachel: Well you still work with children. So I guess you weren’t too far off. 

Traci: I do. Yes. Yep. Exactly. 

Rachel: What’s one thing you always have in your purse? 

Traci: If it's my small purse, I would say my chapstick, if it's my big purse, it's always something to read. 

Rachel: Okay. What is your favorite place to take your kids on a family vacation?

Traci: We normally try not to do things more than once, but we do love New York City. So we've done that a couple of times and generally it's any place out in nature. It's our happy place. 

Rachel: I like that. Um, what is a great book about social justice that we can read to our children? 

Traci: I think right now I've read a few times lately that I'm enjoying is, uh, Amanda Gorman's new book, Change Sings: A Children’s Anthem. It's a beautiful book. 

Rachel: It is beautiful. 

Traci: Yeah. That can be read several times with parents and kids having conversations about. We have that book. It is an excellent book and she's just incredible. 

Rachel: It is really great, especially because I have a daughter. So, um, I feel like it's just so powerful. And her voice is powerful. So, all right. That is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work? 

Traci: I think the best place to follow and to be a part of what I call the social justice parenting village is on Instagram, @socialjusticeparenting, or you can learn more about some of my offerings and a little bit more about me on my website, which is socialjusticeparenting.com. 

Rachel: Awesome. It has been great talking to you, Traci. Thank you so much for stopping by The Suburban Women Problem.

Traci: Thank you!

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I loved your interview with Traci. She gave so many good pieces of wisdom in there. And one of my favorite things has always been just, you know, when you know, better, you do better. And part of our journey is learning that we might not always know better and to give ourselves grace and other people, grace, when you know, we might not know better, I think.

Malynda: As a parent, if you admit that you don't know something, you can go on the journey of discovering it with your child. You can do that together. And I think that's something that if you take that route, then it's really a beautiful thing. So parents shouldn't really be afraid to say, “no, I don't know the answer to this, but let's find out together.”

Rachel: You get to see the reflection of what you're teaching and how this mini person with their own personality is interpreting it. And how they're taking that into the world. And I find it the most rewarding part of parenting to be quite honest, not that I'm trying to shape her views, but I'm giving her the tools to shape her views. And I see the values that she holds dear. 

And on the days when the sass is at a 13 at seven o'clock in the morning and I'm losing my mind—

Amanda: Excuse me, those are leadership skills. 

Rachel: Hahaha. But it is like the yin and the yang, you know, it's that she is comfortable expressing her ideas. And some of that means comfortable pushing back at me. Seeing that I think is, is the most rewarding part of parenting.

Amanda: I love hearing the things they say too. And I think some of parenting you have to realize, like, you're not always going to know because, like, I don't understand things from my kids' perspective because I'm not a six year old right now. 

And even when we've been thinking about representation, how much representation matters…. so I took my daughter to a doctor's appointment and it was a female doctor, I think it was, was my, my gynecologist. And then we had another appointment with an ENT who was a male doctor. And my daughter said, “Mommy. I didn't know doctors could be boys. That's so great for boys that they can be doctors too.”

Rachel: Oh, I love that.

Amanda: And then I thought about it. All of our doctors at the time were women, and I just hadn't thought that she had never seen a male doctor before. Like her world is something I didn't think about, that in her head, only, only women, only girls could be doctors. And I was like, let's have this conversation, but it was a different conversation than I was expecting.

Let's have a conversation that boys and girls can be doctors, lawyers, whatever it does, you know, your gender is not determining of what you can do and what you can be, but it's not the conversation I thought I would have with my daughter. 

Rachel: Oh man. I mean, see that's the thing is their world is so much different than ours than ours was at their age. And that's a great reminder of of just how much different it is. Well, these are very happy notes, but we do like to end each week before we leave on something positive that we call our Toast to Joy. Um, so Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Amanda: Well I got back from spring break feeling very calm and having a little bit of spa brain thinking the whole world was wonderful. Um, and, uh, you know, I came back to some news and it's been wasn't as wonderful as I thought, but we did get to afterwards go to Houston to see my husband's great grandma who we call Gigi. And we have not seen her since before the pandemic. So it has been a while since we've seen her and she has never met our son Brady. So it was so fun to get to see her. She got to meet Brady and that was super fun for us to get to meet Gigi. All right, Malynda, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Malynda: Yeah, I mean, there's several, but the simplest thing was just that I got to sit down and watch a movie with my husband. It's the little things like that. We did watch it at home, but sometimes we just don't get the chance to just sit down and just be like, okay let's watch a movie. So it was nice to just be able to spend time together, Sienna went to bed, there wasn't any issues, we just had a good at home date night. So I was really grateful for that.

Rachel: Of all the things that I'm ready to leave behind from the pandemic and the quarantine, I actually like watching movies at home. It's kind of something, it's an option that I enjoy having.

Amanda: You can pause and go pee!

Malynda: Yes! Yes. 

Rachel: So my toast to joy was meeting Dr. Fauci on Saturday. He doesn't need this, but he does this for us. And I think that's such an example for never stop. If you have a gift and everyone does, you know, you can use it for very long time. And you never know when it's going to be your moment to use your subject matter expertise or the gifts that you've collected over a lifetime to help one person or, you know, millions of, billions of people around the globe.

Malynda. It's been amazing having you join us today. We are so honored. And, um, thank you everyone for listening. Again, if you're enjoying our show, please share it with someone, you know, and don't forget to check out Malynda's podcast, you’ve heard how amazing she is. If you're not already listening to it, it is #Weneedtotalk and I highly recommend it because we need to talk about these issues. We need to not shy away from them. And I mean, we just cannot lean into that enough. So we will see you all again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.