Uncaged (with Marlon Peterson and Barbara Gaskins)

Today we’re tackling another difficult topic: the criminal justice system. But before we get to that and other important issues, like what’s been going on in Ukraine, we have something positive to celebrate! Last weekend, hosts Jasmine Clark, Amanda Weinstein and Rachel Vindman finally all met each other in person! Amanda and Rachel attended a fundraiser for Jasmine’s re-election campaign but they also all made time for meaningful conversations and just getting a tour of Jasmine’s neck of the woods.

After discussing the prison system amongst themselves, the hosts are joined by Barbara Gaskins, a mom in North Carolina who founded a non-profit dedicated to incarceration re-entry. And on top of that, she’s also running for Congress! Amanda, Jasmine and Rachel talk to Barbara about her own experience with the criminal justice system and how difficult it is to move on with a clean slate, even decades later. They also discuss the overall injustice of the system, from the paltry charges given to the January 6th insurrectionists to the constant fear Jasmine and Barbara have for their sons interacting with the police.

After that, Rachel interviews Marlon Peterson, the author of Bird Uncaged: An Abolitionist's Freedom Song. Marlon faced a difficult childhood as an immigrant in Brooklyn and ended up spending over 10 years in prison. He has since become a speaker, an author, and an activist, fighting for incarceration reform. Marlon and Rachel discuss his book, his work, and the connections he sees between the “skin-peeling work” he had to do to face his own past and the bans on Critical Race Theory that stop us as a nation from facing our past together.

Finally, Rachel, Amanda and Jasmine raise a glass to their fun weekend together in Atlanta in this week’s “Toast to Joy.”

If you want to join the conversation, head over to theswppod.com! You can share your thoughts with us, find out how to join our Facebook group SWEEP, and more.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 15

Rachel Vindman: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine Clark: I am Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda Weinstein: I’m Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. We've been hitting some controversial topics lately from affordable housing to legalizing weed, and this episode is no different because today we're talking about the criminal justice system. It's a hard topic with no easy answers, but I had a really meaningful conversation with Marlon Peterson, who spent 10 years in prison and is now an activist against gun violence and mass incarceration. He wrote a book called bird uncaged and you need to read it as soon as you can. It is hard to read, but don't put it down, keep reading it. But before my interview with Marlon, we'll be joined by Barbara Gaskins, a mom in North Carolina who founded a nonprofit dedicated to incarceration reentry. And on top of that, she's also running for Congress! 

But let's start with a check-in. How are we feeling? And we don't need to talk about our group chat because… we all saw each other! 

Amanda: Yeah! We got to see each other! 

Rachel: We’d never all, I had never met Amanda and we'd never all been together. 

Jasmine: I had never met Amanda either. 

Rachel: So we all got together this weekend for a great reason, a fundraiser for Jasmine, for her reelection campaign and, you know, it was so special to hear the people that Jasmine works with. One of her jobs, not all of her jobs, because we didn't have time for that. We were only there for like a little over 24 hours. So that would have been impossible. But in her job as a legislator, it was so inspiring to me to hear the things that people said about her, but I just want to share one. And then I'll let everyone else talk. But there was someone, Dewey McClain— he told me afterwards, he went to the same college as my grandmother. 

Jasmine: Oh, wow. Oh yeah. He is from Oklahoma. Yeah. 

Rachel: Yes, he is from Okmulgee, Oklahoma born, but you know, he talks to his Republican colleagues and they'll say, “oh, Jasmine had a great speech. That was a great speech.” And he's like, “oh yeah. Are you going to vote with her?” And they’re like, “oh no, no.” “Oh, did it, did it, did her speech change your mind?” “Oh no, no, no, no, but it was a great speech. It was great.” And man, if that doesn't just sum it all up right there. 

Amanda: But I loved seeing Jasmine in her element because we actually got to see a little speech that she did, right. At the fundraising thing. I love seeing her in her element like this. And I loved hearing this perspective about these great speeches, because she is up there speaking truth to power so that when they don't vote for this really great bill, she is making it on the record of exactly what they're not voting for. Or when they do vote for a bad bill, like she's making sure that everyone knows exactly what horrible thing they just did. And they cannot say they didn't do it. And I loved that. 

Jasmine: I was just really excited to have you all there. And to, for you all to see the campus where I do my full-time work, as well as to meet some of my colleagues. And it was just, it was a good weekend.

I, I have to admit that when, you know, the people who are giving their speeches about me, they were talking, I was like, I don't know what to do with my hands! But I appreciated hearing it because sometimes I don't know that people are listening or I don't know that I am making an impact. I just know that I'm doing it to make an impact and I'm hoping that it's landing. And so to hear people say out loud, oh, this definitely lands, and we hope to see our in leadership one day, you know, that means a lot to me. Because it means that what I'm doing is not in vain and I am on the right track. 

And so that kind of motivated me to just keep on. Cause it kinda is like you realize people are watching, they're paying attention. And if the people who are on my side are paying attention, I know that people on the other side, they hear me. And like you said, Amanda, they cannot feign ignorance and be like, “oh, I didn't know I was voting for this thing.”

Amanda: Oh, you knew! Cause Jasmine told you so! Oh, I love it. So it actually reminded me of my grandfather who was actually at D-Day in World War II and he helped to liberate a concentration camp. And one of my earliest, most frequent memories of my grandfather was hearing this story about how he did this. And he said to me, his unit in the army made sure everyone in the town— man, woman, and child— marched through this concentration camp. And he said, the only thing that separated this camp from the town was a chain link fence you could see through. 

But they wanted to make sure that every single person in that town could never say that they didn't know. And I thought about that as you were speaking, because that to him, I think that was probably the most powerful thing he did in his entire life. And I feel like you are doing that every day. You go into the Capitol by saying, no one can say they didn't know, like, because I'm going to make sure they know. And that to me is like what you are doing at the Capitol. 

Jasmine: Well, speaking of wars, Rachel, is there any new Ukraine information? I, I feel like it's, this has been going on long enough now that other things are starting to dominate the news cycle a bit more. And so we're not hearing about it as much. And so you're like our resident Ukraine expert!

Rachel: I just live with one. It's like by osmosis. But you know, what's interesting is at the beginning of the war, my husband was really advocating for Ukraine to have more sophisticated weaponry. And the response to that was often, “well, it takes too much time to train them on these systems and the war is going to be over.” But now we see it's not.

Jasmine: It’s not.

Rachel: It’s not over quickly, you know, it’s… I think one of the reasons why we're not talking about it so much, in addition to like just the craziness of the news cycle in the United States, is, you know, a lot of the news that's coming out is really, really hard and we don't know how to process it. And I'm going to admit just for me sometimes if I see it in my social media feeds, I scroll past it because it's going to take up a lot of, you know, emotional energy. And so I can't allow myself to see it all the time. But there are extreme war crimes and human rights violations. We know this is happening and I mean, it's just, I don't, I don't have the words. I mean, you know, you can see the pictures for yourself if you want, but we know they've murdered, the Russian military has murdered Ukrainian civilians and put them in mass graves. And these are atrocities and it is, it is difficult. And I think a lot of the media in the states doesn't talk about it. They also know their audience really doesn't have an appetite for it and their ratings based as well. 

Jasmine: Yeah. That would be hard for a lot of Americans to swallow that that is happening because I just don't think that they can wrap their head around that as actually happening. To take that in and process it enough to be like, I cannot believe this is happening, like right now, today, because the things that are happening that I've seen are these human rights violations. These are things that we like read about in books and we're like, that is insane. I can't believe someone would do that.

Amanda: Or that nobody would stop them. 

Jasmine: Yeah, exactly. I know. 

Rachel: Oh, the other thing about this, I think is that, I mean, slowly, not as quickly as we would like, and this is again this has gone on for a long time, but Russia is definitely being worn down. Really their capacity continues to be reduced and I think there’s some light at the end of the tunnel. In addition to that, the really crippling sanctions are going to have a huge impact as we continue on, we just need more time. 

Amanda: It’s still only April. So it's like, it's like, if you lose your job, right, if you lose your job today, you're not going to feel it. But in a month you will feel that. In two months, if you still don't have a job, you will feel that. And so economic sanctions are kind of like that, where they're not going to be able to do do this for very much longer, if they have really severe economic sanctions, but it also means like just the war itself. 

I feel like we focus so much more on inflation and gas prices. That's part of why we have high gas prices right now, is Russia is a huge producer of gas. And so here I feel so much here's, everyone’s complaining about gas prices, but like, put your anger in the right place. Right? The right place should be on Putin. That's who the anger to be placed on. 

Jasmine: When we think about things that are happening to us in America, we automatically assign blame to someone in America. Because we just assume that, you know, we are the center of the universe, but isn’t inflation happening across the globe?

Amanda: Yes!

Jasmine: Like this is not just something that's happening in America. And Joe Biden is not responsible for inflation in random country X. 

Amanda: Yeah. In Germany or England or somewhere. 

Rachel: But I am going to say that I have liked some of the stuff that's come out of Germany of their Chancellor talking to people and be like, “Hey, this is going to hurt. But this is the price we have to pay for freedom. Like it's either pay now or pay later.” 

Amanda: I do think that helps. Like I think every politician from both sides need to come and be like, “man, inflation sucks because inflation does suck. And at least you're like, yes, it sucks.” Not just ignoring it, I think acknowledging it, like, just like, "look, this sucks” helps. But like the blame thing too… I'm sorry, you don’t need a big old truck to commute to work.

Rachel: Well, I mean, think about all those flags and the drag. I mean, they just cause a lot of drag and you're going to get horrible gas mileage because there's no way that you can put like a giant flag, like you're not going to be aerodynamic. So maybe take down your fricking Trump flags and then it would really improve your life. 

Amanda: You think about like our bandwidth being taken up other places, right? So today we're talking about criminal justice, right. We incarcerate more people per capita than any other country. And it isn't close.

Rachel: Isn’t even close.

Amanda: In Ohio, we have tripled the number of people that we put in prison since 1980. Tripled. Our population has not tripled, right. So Ohio is contributing to this issue. And if you think about like our bandwidth, like how much money are we spending to incarcerate a massive amount of people. And what could we be spending on instead? And is it helping? Like, I think that's the big question. 

So my mother-in-law has a saying that I love and she says “stingy pays twice.” So I think about this with our spending on kids on pre-K. On K-12. If you are stingy on those things, you're going to pay again and you will pay with higher incarceration and things. Stingy pays twice. We are paying for it now by not investing in our kids. So I don't want to hear any, especially, oh my gosh, you cannot be fiscally conservative and be okay with our incarceration in this country. You can't be fiscally conservative, be okay with not investing in our kids now, and then spend twice as much on incarceration. 

Jasmine: Another thing that came up at my fundraiser!

Amanda: Yes, Pre-K! 

Jasmine: An issue that came up at the fundraiser is like investment in early childhood education. And then on the one hand, you've got constituents asking these important questions. On the other hand, you have our chancellor of our university system saying “Enrollment is down. No one is going to college. What can we do?” And I'm like start investing a lot earlier instead of just making speeches and not actually doing something about it. 

Rachel: Jasmine, the gentlemen at your fundraiser who brought up the issue of early childhood education… One thing that I thought was so great about that, and that question was, it was someone you wouldn't necessarily expect to care about early childhood education. 

Amanda: I was just thinking about that! It was not like a mom with a young kid on her hip. 

Rachel: No, no. I mean, you know, and, and when I arrived at my friend's house, I stayed with a friend when we were in Atlanta on Saturday night. And when I arrived at her house, they had a neighbor come by and he was collecting email addresses and information because there was something in their neighborhood that was kind of a noise nuisance. Like someone had a permit for something, but it wasn't being used for what it was supposed to be used for. And it was like really loud. And I heard the music on Saturday night and it was really loud.

And the guy made the comment, because we kind of started talking about politics and why I was in town. He was like, “wow, you're really plugged in. You're so involved in politics, I'm not involved.” And I'm like, “what are you talking about? You're going around collecting names for this thing. And you also just said, like, you've been talking to people and everyone you talk to says, oh my gosh, I thought I was the only one, I thought I was just like old and crabby and I didn't like loud music. But really you have organized people together who feel the same way, but they thought they were all on their own. They didn't want to say anything about it and you're doing this good thing that is politics, like a very basic level.” So we've made politics like a pejorative, but it's not. It’s making life better for everyone. 

Amanda: Right. And think about which party did this. Who who made politics a pejorative? Who made government a pejorative, who made activism and organization a pejorative?

Jasmine: Helping people, public health, literally everything.

Amanda: Yes. So in my family, so my family has dealt with some deals with, with some interactions with incarceration, I will say. So I won’t go too much into it, but I just learning about it through my family members, I did not realize how much we stigmatize it. And my family is white. And even with them, like, I didn't realize like, some people can lose voting rights forever.

Like, what? like, I don't understand that. Once you put in your time, I've done my time, I've paid my penance, why should I be punished from there on out? And it is, it was really eye-opening to me that when you don't interact with it, you kind of don't realize how bad the system is and how much we punish people. And I've really had my eyes opened through my family of like this. 

And even as a mom, like if my kids do something wrong, like yeah. I talk to them about it and they get punished, but not forever. I don't punish my kids, like, you know, I don't know, when they're getting married. “Remember that one time you hit your brother?” Like, oh my God. Get over it. Like, we don't punish people forever. Once they, you know, paid their dues.

Jasmine: When it comes to higher education, this is another thing. So if you get in trouble and you end up getting incarcerated, then when you apply to go to college of any kind, you have to like check the box that says like, “have you ever been convicted of a crime” or “have you ever been convicted of a felony” or whatever. And a lot of times checking that box, basically gets you thrown in the trash pile of not getting accepted. And also you can't get any federal aid and you can't get a lot of scholarships. Like there's so many barriers. 

Amanda: It’s like, once you make that mistake, it's going to follow you for the rest of your life. And it should not be that way. If we are truly talking about restorative or rehabilitative justice. And we want people to rehabilitated, but I think we all know our system does not rehabilitate and I don't even think it even tries to pretend it does in a lot of cases. Like they're just punishing people for ever. They're not rehabilitating in a lot of cases. 

Rachel: Although in some cases, I think we've talked about on the show, like, in some cases, the only way you can get access to health care sometimes or access to the meds you need is the prison system.

Amanda: So I've also dealt with this in my family. That's the only way you can get the help you need is through the prison system. Like that is bad. Stingy pays twice! That's not good. 

Jasmine: The prison system is the largest provider mental health as well. 

Rachel: Yeah. So this is a complicated issue that needs real legislation if we're ever going to make meaningful change. So I think this is the perfect time to bring in our next guest! Barbara Gaskins is a mom to three boys. She founded an organization dedicated to incarceration reform. And now she's running for Congress in North Carolina.

Amanda: Barbara, you actually got arrested when you were rallying for voting rights in DC. Why do you think you were arrested during that rally when so many insurrectionists as we saw on January six were not?

Rachel: Well, she went to a rally and they went to a tourist event.

Amanda: Hahaha.

Barbara Gaskins: Hahaha. Yeah. I mean, that was amazing that you know, it was the ticket is, is called incommoding. And so what I was doing was standing in front of, I was inconveniencing a fence.

Rachel: What were you inconveniencing?

Jasmine: The fence.

Barbara: Whereas, you know, we saw what happened on January 6. We saw, you know, our capital overtaken and, you know, I think the largest charge was like six years. So that was really interesting. Whereas, you know, I actually fight in my community and work towards helping with reentry efforts here in North Carolina. And there's literally people incarcerated for pretrial detention that, you know, have been in there about that much time, you know, that amount of time. And, you know, still have not seen a judge still just, just waiting, I guess. 

Jasmine: Speaking of justice, criminal justice reform is one of your main issues on your platform. So can you just tell our listeners about your own experiences with the criminal justice system and work that you've been doing on the reform?

Barbara: So at the age of 17, my brother and a friend of his actually found my aunt’s calling card. My brother being 15 at the time, he and the other gentleman involved they didn't get charged. Me being 17, I was that chargeable age. And what they did was they actually held the case, so I was charged at 17 and I was convicted at 18. Now, granted, it was a misdemeanor, but, you know, just trying to move forward, even at the age of 39 now, certain jobs are hard to get. Just because, you know, seeing that paper and seeing I was charged with every, every call. So my criminal background is 37 pages because of that. 

Amanda: What! Over a calling card?

Barbara: And you never outlive that, was my problem. And so, you know, trying to move forward, you would think that, you know, after, you know, obtaining a bachelor's in behavioral science, obtaining a master's in justice and security administration and a host of certifications, you would think, you know, you kind of live that down. But it's like, the truth is, you never live it down. And so I took it upon myself to just start researching, you know, what works.

Rachel: What connections do you see between the, the criminal justice system and other issues like racial justice, mental health and the economy? 

Barbara: We see how disproportionately Black and brown people are incarcerated, due to not being able to pay for bail, you know, something that simple.

Jasmine: You are not just a mom, but you are a mom of Black boys. So I just want to know how much of that experience or perspective plays into the work that you do? 

Barbara: Oh my God. My oldest is 20 years old and I saw a statistic and it may have been some years ago, that there was like a huge potential for him to be involved in the criminal justice system. And so that right there was just really scary. And then just having to, you know, have that, the dreaded Talk as we call it. You know, when you get arrested, you know, or when you get stopped, you know, you turn your car off, you turn your lights on, you know, arms on the steering wheel, no sudden moves. And it's just having to have that conversation. And like I said, my, my 20 year old, every time he goes out you know, I'm frightened. 

Barbara: I empathize with that a hundred percent. I have a son that is just starting to learn how to drive. And while I'm all about making sure he stays in his lane and uses his turn signal, I also dread, you know, interactions with law enforcement and just hope that number one, he doesn't have them, but if he does, he's equipped with the information to, you know, get out of that situation safely. So I completely empathize with everything that you're talking about. 

Rachel: Well, thank you Barbara, for joining us. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work? 

Barbara: To learn more about me, I'm at www.barbara4congress.com. 

Rachel: Okay. And we'll have that information in the show notes. Now we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have my conversation with Marlon Peterson.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is a speaker, an activist and a writer. He's the host of the Decarcerated podcast and the author of bird uncaged and abolitionist freedom song. Marlon Peterson. Thank you for joining me on The Suburban Women Problem. 

Marlon Peterson: Thank you. Thanks for having me here, this urban boy on the suburban women podcast.

Rachel: I have to say, I, I read your book recently. It is a fabulous book and I just, I will start and end with that because it was such a compelling story. I grew up in the suburbs, I live in the suburbs now and, you know, I personally have a lot to learn in this space. And I thought you were gentle with readers like me, who, who need an education, but also didn't pull any punches.

But what I most appreciated, Marlon, is your willingness to talk through your journey and you give so much hope for people who are dealing with those issues of complex trauma. Could you just tell us a little bit about how did you end up in jail, you know, in the prison system? And let's start with that.

Marlon: How did I end up in prison. I went to prison at 19, here in Brooklyn, New York. Well, the incident happened in Manhattan, but here in New York. I was initially facing a life sentence, essentially eventually sentenced to 12 years. I was a kid with a bunch of friends, the youngest of five people who thought it was a good ideas to try to rob a store. And sadly it ended in tragedy and terrible, with people being, with loss of life. 

So that's the incident, but I think, you know, when you, I think the question, the way I like to answer this question is more like, how did you end up there? Right. I think that's the more important thing. It's again the deeper insights of what has happened to certain people or some communities, et cetera. When you have traumatic experiences as a young person, when you access to a lot of danger… there was a series of those things that happened to me as a young person, but also I want to say to my community. I mean, my experiences were my experiences, no question, but I think there's so many parts of the way I speak about things growing up and the people around me, how so many people experienced these things. They may have made different choices and that's true, but it just, I want people to focus on the “why” more so than the “it.”

Rachel: Just stepping back a little, certainly your experiences weren’t, they didn't just happen to you. It was, it was your community's experience in so many ways. And you, you moved schools a couple of times because you were attacked. Not your fault. This happened to you. 

And you talk a lot about that experience of hiding it from your parents. I mean, this is something that I think is relatable for a lot of people on a lot of different levels. We don't want to burden our parents. You were embarrassed, you talked about that a lot which broke my heart as an educator and as a parent, myself of not wanting to carry that on. And I think that's kind of the idea of compound trauma is you wanted to hold it, you know, to yourself. You talked a lot about your independence as, as a young person, but I think it's trying to alleviate the burden that maybe, you know, that your parents felt.

But you've actually said that we learn more from questions than answers which I think is really true. What, what questions do you specifically wish that people would ask about the criminal justice system? 

Marlon: Does it work? I mean, just ask that and ask it objectively. Right. And people say, well look at you, you went through it and it worked for you, et cetera. Well, if you read the book, you'll see that, yeah, I went through it. It didn't work for me. I did what I could to make it work, but literally right before I was released, it was trying to keep me in there. 

So does it, has it worked? For our community, particularly the community, sadly, that it services the most. Cause the criminal justice systems services primarily Black and brown, poor Black and brown communities in this country. And you got to look at the communities that they go back to, because the idea is that you go through the system, and you get better. But what are you coming back to? 

I mean, I think the simplest, the ultimate objective question I would ask is like, “do you learn? does it actually work?” Because when you ask that question, you get into more questions and you get into more questions. And I think that's the way you learn the best, by the type of questions that we come up with. 

Rachel: So when you were incarcerated, you started a letter correspondence program with a friend who was a middle school teacher. Can you tell us about that, how that came about and why it was such a lifeline for you? 

Marlon: The program meant a lot to me and to say why particularly… because at the point I was probably halfway through the sentence and I was in a rut. I mean, just like, “what is my life going to be after I get out?” 

And when this person reached into the prison with a letter, obviously, and, you know, asking me to help her with the students, or I won’t say help, but to be another source of wisdom for her students initially didn't make sense. Like, why would you ask me? Like, what I can say? I felt I'm worthless and hopeless. What can I contribute? I got in here as, you know, as a kid, at 19, I left at 19. So I'm like, what can I offer? But then once I did it, I got the responses from the young folks and it like, it's like a light bulb went off. Yes. I was needed. I was, they, they, they saw me as worthwhile resource, that they needed me. They saw utility in me and my, my, you know, my wisdom. 

But it also helped me. It was the first time I began to realize that things happened to me. Like things I had to go through that should not have happened, right? It was like, I, I, I suppressed a lot of things and I focused on the things that I was a part of, that I had participated in. And just that kind of guilt was the thing that I saw every day in front of me, and prison encourages you to see nothing but guilt. And so for me to see like, oh, wow. You know, for the first time, you know, in my mid twenties, at that time, I was beginning to see that things that happened to me when I was a child that wasn't, that's not normal to happen.

Rachel: Yeah. When you describe, like, when you are first taken into, I guess jail, not prison, but you had no idea where you were. You didn't even know what questions to ask or what a lot of things meant, the vocabulary, all of it. And just that it was meant to be disorienting. I mean, it's like a punishment before a punishment. And I think that goes back to what are we, what are we doing here? Is this working? You know, and I think it's not working for a lot of people on both sides. 

Marlon: I think about what happens to correctional officers as well. I just want to throw that in there. Like, I mean, as much as I speak adversely about them in the book, they're dealing with this too in a different way.

Rachel: Yeah. It's dehumanization on both sides. Both sides are dehumanizing each other and just absolutely nothing good can come out of that, whenever we stop seeing people as humans. 

So I mean, I think most of us agree, the American prison system has a lot of problems. It's difficult, I think probably impossible to get people to agree on solutions. As someone who has experienced it from the inside and also done a lot of work on the outside, what are some baby steps solutions that you would see? 

Marlon: Yeah, I think at some point— it's interesting as I still deal with this now, I've been home now 11, over 11 years or so I think— at some point, we need to be comfortable with saying that person's finished a sentence. What I mean by that is even as, even to this point now, I've done a lot of work, you know, to, to help other folks and communicate with other people. And I still have to deal with it. I still have to answer that question, explain why the conviction happened. I was terminated some Airbnb before I got to do an Airbnb because they found out I had a criminal conviction, right? I think at some point we need, not only in the public sector, but also in the private sector, needs to be able to, at some point we need to be comfortable saying, that person finished a sentence. They get to have a completely new slate. 

The second thing is, another thing I think is it's very telling about a society that incarcerates children. Right. I always think, generations from now, when we are long gone, a hundred years, 200 years from now, we’re going to look back at this point in time and be horrified that we incarcerate children. We incarcerate children here. Right. And so long, sometimes for life sentences, right? 

And without, not, not absolving the people who have done egregious things, we're not saying that what you did wasn't wrong. That what you did traumatized other people for years also. That is not what I'm saying. But it is telling that we incarcerate children. And if we know anything about ours, we can reflect on anything about our childhood, there’s so many things that we did, good or bad or different, that is so far from who we are now. Right? 

I mean, there's so many things I could say, you could Google a whole policy list of things. But I don't want to tell you what to do. I want you to think about what we do, right? Why as a nation, do we incarcerate children? 

Rachel: Yeah. So we, on our podcast, we talk a lot about book bans and bans against Critical Race Theory. And in your book, you also talk about how we have to first acknowledge the worst parts of ourselves and our history before we can move past them. Can you talk a little more about that? 

Marlon: Here’s the thing, a thing when it comes to the, I think we, as a nation, we’re just warped what we think is important at times, right. For me to be able to see all the parts of me, and be honest enough to express that, that's that's, that's, that's, that's being critical about who I am to. Right. I had to do some introspection. I have to see the worst, but also see the good, right. As opposed to acting like parts of me don't exist, like as is none of us have negative desires and negative thoughts at any point in time, right?

This is not about the dissolving the harm. But it is very important to me, it was important for me to be able to get to the point where the last words of my book is “happiness is next.” Right? That's the last words of my book, despite all the hard things I have to do. I had to look into myself. And to be clear, it was hard to write this book. It was hard, right. Because cause things were coming up that I didn't know. That I forgot about, that I buried. Right. And I was like, it was necessary for me to put it out there, it was necessary for me to heal. 

So that's on a micro level, and I think the same about like American the nation, you know, on a larger level. It's the same sort of work that needs to be done. But it's hard and it doesn't look good and it will make some people sad and disappointed inside and it’ll uncover some, some, some lies that culturally love to believe in, participate in, all those things.

We want to be able where all people in this country can say, you know, “happiness resides here.” And I think the only way that gets to happen, it will be do this really, I can call it like “skin-peeling work.” And you know, skin peeling work, I mean, it bruises. It hurts. But it replenishes, you know, and I think that's ultimately, I guess that's like one of the purposes of this book, right? Like everything's possible for us, despite all we've been through. 

Rachel: Well, I have tears in my eyes. That is beautiful. This has been a very meaningful conversation to me. And thank you so much. Now we are gonna end with some rapid fire questions on a little bit lighter note because I like that, “happiness is next.”

So in your book, you write a lot about playing the steel pan and it has always been really important to you. What is your favorite song to play? 

Marlon: It’s called “Like a Boss” by Machel Montano. And you can just Google, just Google it and you'll, and you'll find it. And you can find steel pan versions.

Rachel: Okay. So if you could be a guest star on any TV show, what would it be? 

Marlon: Oh, wow. On any television show right now? What would be, oh, it would be Abbott Elementary. 

Rachel: What do you do for self care? 

Marlon: What do I do for self care… Well, right now I have an almost eight week old daughter.

Rachel: Congratulations!

Marlon: So she's my focus. I mean, she's yeah, she’s, she's what I do for my self care now. Just being with her, that's it.

Rachel: You're making me cry right and left. Okay. So your family is from Trinidad and Tobago. What is your favorite thing about Trinidad? 

Marlon: Carnival. We have a yearly Carnival around February, right, which is, you know, around a lot of Catholic holidays. This is branded as the best greatest show on earth. I strongly advise every human being to experience it at least once— or five times!— but at least once. It's the most liberating experience you can have. 

Rachel: Love it. What is the last thing that made you laugh out loud?

Marlon: I can't remember. I think the sleep deprivation thing is kind of—

Rachel: Well, you have an eight week old daughter, so a lot of sleep deprivation. So it's hard to remember like what you have for breakfast this morning. I remember. 

Marlon: Yes. I, I will say this much. I think it had something to do with my my niece. My niece is seven, she just came back from Disney World. She went with her aunties and whatnot and she has so many stories about Disney World. Right? And she seemed like she, you know, we all had this fresh spirit in our lives when we were young. I remember when I did this, it was the best thing when I was a kid, I feel like she just had that.

Rachel: Aw. Well, that is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people find out more about you and your book? 

Marlon: Yeah, of course the book can be purchased anywhere online or local stores. My website is marlonpeterson.com or just follow me on social media. 

Rachel: Well, thank you. It's been great talking to you and we really appreciate you stopping by The Suburban Women Problem.

Marlon: Thank you. Thank you.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I loved your interview with Marlon and I especially love the very simple question of like, do we think our criminal justice system is working? How's it working for us? And I think most of us know in our gut, it's not working. 

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I, as I said earlier, I really urge everyone to read this book. It's heavy, you know, it is, it is pretty heavy, but it was a lot of food for thought. It's not that long, but there's a lot of food for thought and it. 

And I think back to when I was in college and a professor said, you know, “when you go into your classroom every day, it should be a clean slate. What happened yesterday happened yesterday, but you know, everyone should have a fresh start every morning.” I think that's really true. It's, it's, it's sort of impossible for us as humans to do, but if you make a conscious effort to do it… and I think, you know, as individuals, if we were wronged, you know, should we have to do that? I mean, that's your own choice. But you can decide as a society though, we can have laws and policies that sort of legislate this. So that people have a fair shake. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. 

Rachel: But this has been a bit of a heavy episode, I know. So we want to leave with something positive. Jasmine, would you like to start us off with your Toast to Joy?

Jasmine: Absolutely. So I'm glad I get to go first so y'all can't steal my Toast to Joy because my Toast to Joy is to see you all! Having you all fly down and seeing you in person and just, y'all getting to see my slice of life, my neck of the woods. And yes, you all came to my fundraiser and I really appreciate that, but I also appreciated, you know, hanging out, having conversations. 

So Amanda and I went to the Braves game, we got to try some new beverages and eat tacos and everyone sitting around us was like, “oh my gosh, where'd, y'all get those tacos?” And you know, going to brunch on Sunday and having mimosas, and I don't know, it just like, it was a really good time. And so I think we talk a lot about having that opportunity to kind of just like unwind and just be with your people. And this last weekend, I got to meet with my people and it was really great. So I appreciate y'all coming to the fundraiser, but honestly, I also appreciated just getting to hang out. It was all of it was really fun and yeah, that's my Toast to Joy this week. 

So, Amanda, what is yours?

Amanda: Ahhh Jasmine you're right, that was totally going to be my Toast to Joy. But it was all just so much fun. I loved the game. I loved brunch and it was even fun getting a hang out in the airport and just have like a long leisurely dinner that, you know, usually it's like eat and run type of stuff. But it's nice to see people in person and to chat and to just talk. And it was so fun. And I love seeing Jasmine in her element.

And I will say at the game, Jasmine knew so many people. And I was like, “ooh, look, I'm here, I'm here with Jasmine Clark, look at me” And I was like, “yeah, she knows all these people!” So it was a lot of fun. Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: Okay. I guess I'll go with something a little different. It's been really busy in my house, like since the war started Alex has been super busy and I really fell back into the… I'm not trying to make myself a martyr, I’m not gonna wear a t-shirt that says you know, “Army spouse, toughest job in the army.” But I really fell back into that role as army spouse when he got busy. But I have a lot of stuff on my plate that I'm doing now that I wasn't doing when I was an army spouse. So it has been hard to juggle everything. 

And I went away for the night, the dog got sick and Alex handled it without, you know, he didn't complain and even I got home really late and he took care of everything this morning. And I realized maybe some of the pressure I'm putting on myself… I’m putting on myself. It's not totally someone else. Like, I mean, it's not him asking me to do it. I've just stepped in and tried to take it away from him, but it's not something he wanted me to do. 

Anne-Marie Slaughter, I posted something about our dog on Twitter, and Anne-Marie Slaughter, like quote-tweeted me and said, because I had made a comment about “mom guilt is real even for fu babies, fur children.” But she said, “It shouldn't be mom guilt. It should be parent guilt." And Alex stepped up. And I was like, “ooh, I love the way she reframed that.” So that is my Toast to Joy, to getting away, doing something that was special to me and meaningful to me, and not like putting it on the back burner because, you know, because I thought what Alex wanted to do is more important. We just got to figure out a way to make it all work. 

Jasmine: I love that. 

Rachel: So thank you so much to everyone who has joined us today, and we will see you again on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem!