Can The ERA Save Roe? (with Kate Kelly)

On today's episode, Amanda Weinstein, Jasmine Clark, and Rachel Vindman talk about abortion. Yes, again. We’re not going to stop talking about it until we all have the right to choose in this country. We also discuss some of the primaries that happened last week - extreme right candidate and ethical nightmare Madison Cawthorn lost his election, and so did extremist school board candidates in Durham, NC. But we still have a huge fight ahead of us in November, so it’s crucial to keep having personal conversations with the folks in our families and neighborhoods. Talking to the people in your network is the most impactful way to influence voters.

And speaking of personal stories, ever since the news about Roe v Wade leaked, the women in our Facebook community SWEEP have been sharing so many personal stories. Almost 1,000 women have shared their abortion stories, so this week we’ve decided to highlight three of those women - reading their own posts, in their own voices.

After that, Jasmine sits down with Kate Kelly of Ordinary Equality and author of  “Ordinary Equality: The Fearless Women and Queer People Who Shaped the U.S. Constitution and the Equal Rights Amendment.” Kate and Jasmine discuss the history of abortion and how it became one of the pillars of the Republican Party, the history of the Equal Rights Ammendment, and Kate’s favorite quote from “Legally Blonde.”

Finally, Amanda, Jasmine and Rachel raise a glass to taking a break, the beach, birthdays, and getting dolled up for a gala in this week’s “Toast to Joy.”

Now is the time to create and uplift pro-choice content and support movements that are fighting for abortion rights, which is why we have joined the Listen To Women coalition! You can buy a t-shirt today to support the National Network of Abortion Funds.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

Please note: This episode was recorded before the news of Tuesday's mass shooting broke, but unfortunately mass shootings are common enough in this country that we talked about gun violence just last week. Shannon Watts joined us from Moms Demand Action, a grassroots movement of moms fighting for common sense legislation to prevent gun violence. You can join in their fight by going to MomsDemandAction.org or by texting the word "Ready" to 644-33.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

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YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 20

Thank you for listening to The Suburban Women Problem. We were all horrified by the news on Tuesday about the mass shooting at an elementary school in Texas. This episode was recorded before that news broke, but unfortunately, mass shootings are common enough in this country that we talked about gun violence on an episode just last week. Shannon Watts joined us from Moms Demand Action, a grassroots movement of moms fighting for common sense legislation to prevent gun violence. You can join in their fight by going to momsdemand.action.org, or by texting the word ready to 644-33.

Jasmine Clark: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jasmine Clark:

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Amanda Weinstein: I’m Amanda Weinstein.

Jasmine: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. So first, Rachel, welcome back. We missed you last week and although we love, love, love having Katie Paris on the pod, it is good to see you again. 

Rachel: Well, I really missed you guys. And it was an episode that I was sad to miss, but you guys did a really good job. 

Jasmine: It’s really been a lot of difficult topics these last few weeks. It’se been a little heavy. 

Rachel: It's just, it's a lot. Every day. It's a lot. It's exhausting by the end of the week. 

Jasmine: So speaking of, we are talking more about abortion this week and you know what, we're not going to stop talking about it until we're guaranteed reproductive rights in this country. 

Amanda: Good point. Like, men, if you want us to stop talking about this shit, give us our rights back.

Jasmine: Yup, exactly. Exactly. So I've had a chance to sit down with Kate Kelly of Ordinary Equality, and she gave me some really interesting background on the history of abortion and why she thinks that the Equal Rights Amendment might be one way we could save Roe V. Wade. 

Amanda: Can’t wait.

Jasmine: But first let's start with a little check-in. So how are we feeling this week? What's been blown up our group chat?

Amanda: Oh man. We've got all the primaries happening, a lot of the primaries. And can I first say one of my favorite primary results is Madison Cawthorn who lost his primary as an incumbent Republican, in a safe district. This is not often something like this happens.

Rachel: No, it usually comes from out of the blue. I will say I'm annoyed with the people who are saying, well, this is not a victory and another Republican won. It could be a more competent person. Okay. But I mean, to say there's a line, and Madison crosses it, I think we can celebrate anyone who recognizes that. 

Amanda: Oh yeah, no, I'm a total economist about this. I want a good competition. My husband and I, this is where we disagree, I'll tell you right now. He is like, “I want the easiest candidate to beat.” I don’t. I want a good competition. Cause I want to see that Dem work hard for it and win it and be a spectacular Democrat. That's what I want to see, a good competition.

Jasmine: At a certain point, yeah, you can say, “oh, well he would have been the easier candidate to beat” or whatever. And maybe he would have been, cause he's got a lot of baggage and a lot of videos and a lot of, just a lot of things going on over there. A lot a lot of, you know, issues that he needs to deal with. But I think that there nothing is guaranteed. And I think that a lot of people thought the same way about Trump and look what happened in 2016. 

Amanda: Exactly.

Jasmine: So I think, you know, we let these elections play out, but we still work hard and we fight, and we don't assume that anyone is the easy person to beat. So I'm glad he's gone. But the person who did win we're gonna have to fight like heck against that person as well. 

Rachel: Madison Cawthorn does not deserve to be in Congress. 

Amanda: No!

Rachel: I’m really, that’s— that's I mean, ladies c'mon. If Madison Cawthorn can make it, you can make it and do a much better job. 

Jasmine: I know! I'm just like so mad about imposter syndrome. Cause I like have had it and I'm like, why, why am I like this? 

Amanda: Oh, Jasmine far, far above, you are far, far above Madison Cawthorn. It is like miles and miles. 

Jasmine: Another exciting primary is actually one of our past guests won her primary as well. So we had a Barbara Gaskins on the show and she ended up winning her primary. Super excited for her. 

Amanda: I know. So we also had, in Durham, we had some extremist school board candidates who also lost. And I think, you know, a lot of this really shows you have the conversations, right? You don't ignore the conversations, right? I don't think Democrats should be ashamed of any issue that they stand behind. And if you're not ashamed of that, then talk about it. I'm not ashamed to be supporting my kids and their schools and for them to be getting an honest education. 

Jasmine: I think we learned a lot of lessons from Virginia, and I think that's one of the lessons we learned after the Virginia election. I think Republicans were like, “oh, this is the winning message.” And I think Democrats were like, “we can not just continue to let them, you know, say all this stuff about CRT,” and you know, just be ridiculous and let it go unanswered. And so I think when we finally decided, you know, the new strategy, we're not going to just let them say whatever and try to write it off and just assume that no one believes that stuff. We're going to actually fight back. 

I think that we see that more people agree with us than agree with that. And so I want them to keep running on that. I want them to keep believing that that somehow that's a winning strategy. That is a losing strategy. And we're seeing that across the country. 

Rachel: Yeah. I, I think that I've got to talk about the issues and talk about the issues and if they're talking about them, we have to respond to it. And I do, I do hope that's something we learned from Virginia. That's why I think it's really important that we start talking about these things now. And I don't think it's too early for Democrats to start kind of putting out ads so that even if it's for the consumption of other Democrats, that they're getting the talking points and then they're going out and discussing those as we have family reunions over the summer or holidays. I mean, there's not a lot of, you know, gatherings or like big holidays and stuff before November. It's never too early. 

And some of these things you're really going against what people have been hearing and thinking for sometimes their whole lives. And you're correcting these things. So you gotta give people time and space to change their mind. It's not going to happen because you're going to be like, “oh, did you know this? Oh, you didn’t? All right.” And they're like, “thank you so much. I totally changed everything I've ever believed." It's not going to work like that. We all know that. 

Jasmine: I wish it would.

Rachel: I know, right? So we need to give people time and we need to be talking to our family, to our friends, to our neighbors. It's never too early. 

Amanda: I think that's such a good point and especially with abortion and what's happening with Roe V. Wade to really talk about… I mean, I have, you know, family members who have been told what I now know are lies from the other side. And believe them fervently! Like even lies about, you know, “well, if you get an abortion, you're more likely to give breast cancer,” right? “There was a study done.” And that's not true. And actually the American Cancer Society says there has never been any study that has linked that ever, but they really believe that! And understanding who that person is because I have that personal connection to be like, "look, here's the information. There was never a study like that done it just simply wasn't true.”

Jasmine: I think that the Republicans themselves are kind of shooting themselves in the foot because I think they think their message is like, “we have to get as, as, as extreme as possible when it comes to what a post-Roe United States looks like. And so they're saying all these things that are the things people who might have said, “well, I don't like abortion, so I'm actually okay with this happening.” And then I'm like, “wait, so you're saying you want to get rid of contraceptives too? Okay, that might be a bridge too far for me.” Or, "wait, you're saying my doctor might be fearful of giving me the surgery I need for an ectopic pregnancy that now I am not, I'm not there yet.”

Amanda: And they’re not supporting the babies who are here, right? So at the exact same time they're voting against the Biden administration and everything we're trying to do to get formula to babies—things babies need to live! 

Jasmine: Exactly! The media honestly covered Biden's response and solution to the formula shortage a lot less than the shortage itself and the whole border crap, like they made it a point to keep that in front of people's faces. But then when there was an actual solution, they were like, “Hmm. Yeah, let's talk about something else.” And so we've got to start telling people. 

Rachel: You know, for so many people in our country, healthcare continues to be such a major focus for many, many Americans, affordable health care. You know what’s not affordable? Having a child that needs, that is going to face from day one massive medical intervention. I mean, that is going to need lots of care. Who's going to pay for that? And that's something that really has to go into the calculus for a lot of people. 

I've often, you know, I've told the story of our daughter, Sarah, who was born at 24 weeks. So one of the things that Alex and I were just talking about like last week was we didn't have to worry about— we weren't going to have any healthcare costs because military insurance is very generous, especially because we lived in the DC area at the time and had access to the best medical facilities that the military has. So we knew everything would basically be covered. And don't think that we didn't discuss that in those moments when we had to make the decision about whether or not to resuscitate our baby when she was born. Because she was less than 25 weeks, we as her parents had to make that decision. A lot of women, we talk about this more now, and we need to be more open about these discussions and, and how that really affects people.

We don't, we don't offer people anything! We don't offer them affordable healthcare. We don't offer them family leave to take care of family members, whether it's a child or an adult. I mean, we couldn't pass that with this Congress. We couldn't pass that. So we're not offering anyone anything, but we're saying “have the baby, you have to have the baby.” Oh, and also be pregnant and continue to support yourself and maybe other children or whatever during the pregnancy, as if that's the most normal thing in the world. 

Jasmine: Yeah. I mean, I, that's such a good point. I think not only do we have difficulty passing what seems like common sense things, but people get so mean about it. Like they'll say things like, “well, if you couldn't afford a baby, then you shouldn't have gotten pregnant.” It's like, we don't make these decisions ahead of time! We don't know what life is gonna throw at us. And so when we do, when we, we get the information we have to make decisions. Don't take those decisions away from people, especially when you are not offering any type of support. 

All right. So lately we've been reading quotes on the pod from our Facebook community SWEEP, which stands for Suburban Women Engaged Empowered and Pissed. And this month y'all, there've been so many amazing women posting their abortion stories into sweep. Almost 1000 women have shared their stories. It is truly incredible, sometimes gut-wrenching, sometimes inspiring, but yes, so many stories. 

Amanda: So instead of just reading their quotes or having one Troublemaker of the Week join us today, we're going to listen to three of those women from SWEEP tell their stories in their own voices. Here we go. 

SWEEP Member 1: My story… I'd been in a relationship for 15 months and he persuaded me to go off the Pill, you know, “to give my body arrest.” I now realize you wanted me to do that because we're going to be apart all summer and he didn't trust me. So fast forward to the early fall. I'm 19 years old. I've just transferred to Northwestern University, my dream school. Our backup while I got birth control pills back in my system didn't work. The morning after pill didn’t work. It's now five weeks into my sophomore year of college. I'm hyperemetic, pregnant, I'm a mess. My head is in a garbage can more than a textbook. 

He paid for, and stayed with me the entire time. It was so early in my pregnancy that the clinic made me wait three additional weeks before they could do the procedure. I did it on November 17th, 1988. My dad’s birthday. I remember finding that date oddly symmetrical given my dad, a violent and abusive man, had impregnated my mother when he was 19 and she was 20 and they married and had me. My mother's had a miserable life, married to someone who cheated on her, abused her and abused me. And all because it was 1968 and she didn't have a choice. 

Matt and I stayed together for four more years, both finishing undergraduate with honors and going on to different law schools. We each married, pursued careers and had separate lives that would not have been possible if we'd been forced to have a baby at 19. It was the right choice.

My only regret is that I have lived with shame of that choice for decades. I hid this secret from my family and friends and felt like I was a bad person for having had an abortion. No more. I'm 53. I have three sons ages, 19, 19 and 21. No more will I lie at the gynecologist when I list the number of pregnancies I've had. No more will I be silent about the choice that I made. Forced birth is not pro-life. It's anti-woman. It's anti bodily autonomy. It's anti controlling your own future. It's anti leaving abusive relationships.

SWEEP Member 2: The only reason I exist is because of abortion. My mom was a 16 year old virgin. She was raped. She became pregnant and got an abortion. Had she not gotten the abortion, she wouldn't have been able to go to nursing school and become a nurse. She wouldn't have met and married my father. Me, my sister, and ultimately my two children, my two nieces, and nephew would not have been born. Seven new lives were able to come into the world because of one abortion. 

SWEEP Member 3: I’ve never had an abortion, but I've had two D&Cs, the procedure used in a surgical abortion. The first was about four weeks after I miscarried. Something felt very wrong in my women parts, so I went to the emergency room with the nearest hospital. They did a test and realized it had been an incomplete miscarriage. Some of the tissue had stuck, probably part of the placenta, and they needed to get the dead tissue out before it went septic. I had to wait around most of the day before they could get to me early in the evening shift. 

The second was postnatal. Apparently I have a sticky uterus because again, not everything came out that was supposed to. Having just given birth, I was having all sorts of pains anyway, and didn't notice there was a new kind. It wasn't until I turned feverish very early on a Sunday morning that I went back to that same hospital. This time, there was no waiting. As soon as they saw a postnatal woman with a high fever, they suspected sepsis. So they rushed me through the tests and had me on the table in under an hour. 

If I had been in a country where abortion is not available, it's not likely that my local hospital would have had a doctor available evenings or weekends to perform that procedure. The first time I probably would have been okay to wait a day or two or travel to see a specialist, but the second time, if I'd had to wait, I would have died. Now, this was not the United States. I was living in Australia at the time, where it's standard for every hospital to have someone who can perform a D&C available. Because they know that sometimes D&Cs are emergency procedures and that women will die without them. And that some of those women, like me, aren't pregnant. We don't seem to know that in the U S and I think that needs to be part of the conversation. The fact that the same procedure that's used in surgical abortions is also a life-saving measure in non pregnancy situations. 

If abortion is abandoned parts of the us, we know that a lot of pregnant women will be. But do we know how many other women will also die because they can't get a medically necessary D&C? Do those lives matter? 

Amanda: Oh man, there's a lot in there. So I think part of what this, when you think about it, is the uncomfortable conversation that people who are against abortion don't want to have. It's that it affords women a better life.

Rachel: And maybe this is the moment that people can like share their stories. Because of all, I mean, I, I read the stuff on SWEEP and this is just one of those things that women, they don't talk about it. I mean, so many people, I'm sure you guys saw that too, so many people talked about how they've never told anyone about this. We have got to continue to tell these stories so that it starts discussions and share these stories that people have kept secret for so long. 

Amanda: I mean, part of it is ignorance. When I heard her talking about how they made her wait for weeks, that part is under the misconception that, “oh, maybe if you just wait a couple of weeks, you'll change your mind because you're a flighty woman.” That is so untrue. We know as women, we're not the flighty women that they make us out to be. And what I don't get about the pro-life people is making a woman wait three weeks is not great! Right? If you are truly pro-life and this is going to happen anyway, you want it done as soon as possible. You don't want to make that woman wait three or four weeks until that baby is more developed. I do not understand the making women wait.

Jasmine: They do this because the underlying premise is that women are emotional creatures and that we should not be trusted with our decisions. So they do things like waiting periods and requiring an ultrasound so you have to see it. 

Rachel: It’s so manipulative. 

Amanda: I know. And the, and the truth is we have really great studies now, turnaround studies that actually compare women who are denied abortions to women who got them to see what the difference was. And the truth is, that it's uncomfortable to talk about… the women who are able to get abortions had better lives. Because they were able to choose when to have a pregnancy, the pregnancies they went on to have after the abortion were very much wanted children at the time. That is better for all of the people involved. Mothers, fathers, children. And that is an uncomfortable conversation to have for the pro-life people. That actually having the abortion made the women's lives better, that they weren't ashamed. The vast majority of women aren't ashamed. 

Rachel: And that's why I think it's, it's great that people share these stories. Because I think as people hear more of them, they'll be comfortable sharing theirs. Or for people like me, who sometimes can find it uncomfortable to discuss this topic. Cause I have a lot of complicated feelings surrounding it. And the more stories you hear, the more stories you read, then empathy kicks in and you see this is so complicated and it's bigger than me. Who cares about my feelings or how hard it is? I have to discuss this because it's the right thing to do. And people need this choice and the government should not be part of this.

Jasmine:  Absolutely. Rachel, I think you said the magic word. It's empathy. And I think, you know, there's a part of me, I’m going to be really honest, there’s a part of me that hates that people basically have to expose themselves and get into their private lives and private decisions and make it very public in order to, for people to understand why this is so important. But I appreciate that they do, because it does evoke the empathy that we all should have for the people that you know, are part of our community.

And on that note, let's hear from human rights lawyer, fellow podcaster, and women's rights expert Kate Kelly to tell us more about the surprising history of abortion. My interview with Kate is coming up after the break. 

BREAK

Jasmine: Our guest today is an activist, a human rights lawyer, a podcaster and a writer. She's the author of Ordinary Equality, The Fearless Women and Queer People Who Shaped the US Constitution and the Equal Rights Amendment. Kate Kelly, thank you so much for joining me today on The Suburban Women Problem. 

Kate Kelly: Thank you for having me.

Jasmine: So let's just jump right in. Obviously we've been talking about Roe V. Wade ever since the Supreme Court opinion leaked. And it’s a common misconception that abortion is some type of like modern development. But actually, women have been controlling their own fertility for pretty much all of humanity. So could you tell us more about the history of abortion before the modern era?

Kate: Yeah, it's so interesting to me that people think that because of course we've always controlled our own fertility. Women are very smart people and we know how to figure things out. And so women, since the beginning of time, have been able to figure out their own cycles and their own fertility and sought to control it because controlling your reproductive life is controlling everything.  It means controlling your destiny. So there have always been ways for women and pregnant people to control their fertility, you know, from herbal remedies to tracking cycles to using midwifery. 

And all of the above knowledge was carried down from women, mostly through community circles or through healers. You know, medicine the way that it's practiced today in modern medicine was very different. And for things that were considered women’s realm or women's work, it was largely carried down by women in the community who are considered to be healers or practitioners or midwives. And so people, you know, there's accounts going very far back using different herbs, using, you know, there’s— there was penny royalty, there were all these different things. And different cultures had different types of herbs and remedies, but they were always kind of passed around within the communities. 

It's interesting, like even in the United States, in the 1800s, it was openly advertised. So there were advertisements in magazines and newspapers. It was really quotidian. It was not controversial. It was called “menstruation restoration” and it was openly advertised. So you could get pills for menstruation restoration or you could go see one of these practitioners and it really, there were code words for it, but it was not the controversy that it is today. 

Jasmine: Gotcha. All right. So let's talk about today. So we’re, you know, now in the 21st century, but let's go back to the 20th century. How did abortion come to be one of the pillars of the Republican party? 

Kate: Yeah. So the Catholic Church is the short answer. And the long answer is, as the Catholic Church increasingly amped up its rhetoric against abortion… it wasn't always so. So there was a specific point in time where the teaching was changed. And, you know, at the time there was also a lot less information about pregnancy and childbirth and what happened and what the “quickening" was. They called the “quickening” when the soul entered the body. And there were lots of questions about when that happened. Or in the Catholic context, it was called “ensoulment.” Most people didn't think it happened until much closer to birth. And so as that teaching changed and, and Catholicism came to embrace abortion as murder, they also started infiltrating other circles with this position that, that abortion was a sin. And before that, it, it hadn't been that way. 

So fast forward to, you know, the 60s. The women's rights movement is growing. Women are learning how to control their own fertility in new ways, exploring other treatments, exploring medication, abortion, it's just getting easier and more accessible. However, in most places it was still not legal. So as states started legalizing— California, New York—they're stripping out their abortion bans from their laws, it becomes, it becomes this contrast where in some places it is legal and in some places it is not. 

And so, in order to make it illegal everywhere, these forces started joining together and also really amping up with evangelicalism. So evangelicals, like Catholics, didn't have a strong position against it. In fact, in some of their literature in these earlier decades, you can see that they had a pro-abortion or pro reproductive freedom stance. And so as abortion access keeps getting liberated, the movement against it also amps up. 

So in 1973, we get Roe vs Wade legalizing abortion every place in the country. And that's actually when the formal anti-abortion movement started. So it wasn't until that point where you see protestors, where you see people actively engaged at clinics, where you see all of the things that we kind of associate with the anti-abortion movement now. That did not exist at the time. That did not exist in the 1960s. And it wasn't till later in the decade of 1970s, when the anti-abortion movement joined up with other very conservative groups, like Phyllis Schlafly, and sort of joined together to say, “okay, we're going to create a potent political movement and we're going to focus our attention and efforts around this flashpoint that is abortion.” And so it really wasn't until the latter part of the 1970s that that crystallized as a political goal for the right. 

Jasmine: It’s very interesting that you bring that up because I just think about the fact that I've met people who refer to themselves as “pro-abortion Republicans,” because of what you just said. It wasn't really a part of their stance until more recently. And they've been just voting Republican all their life. And they're like, “I don't know when that changed. I'm still a pro-abortion,” let me rephrase that, “pro-choice Republican.” Abortion was not a part of their platform or it wasn't something that was like a deal breaker to being a Republican until much later. And they're like, “on that one thing, I just, I didn't move with them. Like, you know, I still vote Republican, but I'm also very much pro choice.”

And I'm wondering how those people are feeling at this moment in history. Where they are still very much like, “oh no, I'm a Republican, but I'm also very pro choice, but now I'm seeing Republicans being so anti-choice that I am not exactly sure where I fit anymore, you know. I don't know where I fit.” And I'm like, “I know where you fit. Just come on over here, come over here.”

Kate: That's yeah, I mean, it's so funny because that's also when a lot of political issues became so polarized between parties. So for example, the I'll use the Equal Rights Amendment. The ERA passed in both houses of Congress in 1972, with over 90%. Only eight senators voted against it. So can you imagine like a gender issue today where only eight senators vote against it? It's almost impossible to imagine. And the same was true for abortion. There were many pro-choice Republicans. It was, you know, it was, it was commonplace. There were feminist Republicans. It was a totally different party. 

This idea of restricting abortion access being a litmus test for whether or not you can run as a Republican in this country is a very new invention. And so you do have, you know, you have Murkowski, you have Collins, they're pro-choice Republicans and they're in the Senate now. But they're from this older generation of folks where that wasn't an oxymoron. That made sense. That was fine. You could be pro-choice and you could be a Republican. And so it's not even a generation ago that that was the case. There are people still in Congress today who are pro-choice and Republican, and that definitely exists. The problem is there are a few anti-choice Democrats. 

Jasmine: Right.

Kate: And so, you know, this is becoming like a bit of an interesting litmus test, but it was never that. And, and when you said pro abortion Republicans, I was like, “wow, great. I didn't, I don't know them. I'm interested to know them.” Because abortion at the end of the day is freedom. And so if you are pro-freedom, you are pro-abortion. The end. It should be accessible to everyone who needs it for any reason. And so that's why I call myself pro abortion, not just pro choice, because it represents freedom for so many people.

Jasmine: So we talked a little bit about religion and we talked about how abortion is so entangled with religion. And you talk about how you have a complicated relationship with religion yourself. So, I mean, could you tell us about your organization Ordain Women and your experiences with the Mormon church? 

Kate: Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because there are a lot of pro abortion and pro choice voices in the faith movement. But they aren't the ones that are focused on when you see the media, they're like, okay, let's get a pro abortion advocate. And then the opposite will be like some priest or something. And the framing I think is so wrong because the majority of people, even the majority of Catholics, 68% of Catholics say they do not want to see Roe vs. Wade overturned. That's a huge amount of people from the faith who originated the entire idea that abortion was bad and wrong. That's a huge amount of people who don't agree with the hierarchy of the church and want Roe vs. Wade to remain the law of the land, you know. And 98% of Catholics use contraceptives. The vast majority of people in these bodies and these religious groups do not agree and do not obey the hierarchy when it comes to these teachings on reproductive choice. 

And my own journey, I, I was raised Mormon. For Mormonism… abortion actually not our worst issue. I remember going to church and there would be protestors against Mormons for having like a pretty liberal stance on abortion. And, and it's all relative, of course, but it was because they allowed exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother, et cetera, and left it more up to the individual person and their ecclesiastical leader to really make the choice. So within Christian traditions, this is considered of course, very radical. So. They’re not the worst on abortion. 

But then there are also religions where, for example, in Judaism, in some cases abortion is mandatory in order to save the life of the mother. And that's an explicit religious teaching. In Islam, abortion is not forbidden. And I know a lot of folks from other countries, you know, for example, I have a friend from Pakistan who's like, “I don't even understand why it's such a big deal here. I got here and I was like, what is this all abortion fury?” Like, this is not a thing in Pakistan or other Muslim majority countries. And so when we talk about religion, it's very, very specifically about a specific sect within Christianity. And I think it's important to keep that in mind that this one group you know, or conglomeration of groups is really monopolizing a conversation that they have no business monopolizing. Even their own adherence do not agree. 

So, yeah, I think my, my experience fighting for women to get ordained in the Mormon tradition—which, spoiler alert, did not work, and I was ex-communicated as a result— but I think that experience really helped me to see patriarchy in a way that other people have a more difficult time. You know, people who are secular sometimes think they are free. Sometimes think women and men are equal in our society. Sometimes think, you know, they live in a place where patriarchy doesn't exist. And I have bad news for you. There is nowhere where patriarchy does not exist in this world. If it did, if that, if that place existed, I would go to that magical island and never return. You know, as a lesbian, I'm trying my best! 

But you don't have to be Catholic, you don't have to be evangelical, you don't have to be Mormon, to suffer from the political influence of these groups. And, and I think it's, it's really important to make that clear that they have a disproportionate impact on public policy. 

Jasmine: Right. All right. So you brought up the ERA, or the Equal Rights Amendment, and so much of your work, including your book, focuses on the ERA. So why is that, what's the connection? 

Kate: Yeah. So I actually learned about the ERA because I was raised Mormon. And the Mormon church played a very outsized role in the defeat of the equal rights amendment in the 1970s. So my mother and my grandmother were assigned to fight against the ERA by the church in Arizona where I was born. And, you know, Arizona never ratified. They’re very talented women, it worked. And, and the ERA fell three states short because of women like my mother and my grandmother in the 1970s. 

So the ERA went through what I like to call a lull, but when it fell short of its deadline initially proposed deadline, it went through several decades where there were no additional ratifications. But it was revived in 2017 in Nevada. So a queer black preacher named Pat Spearman. Senator Pat Spearman in Nevada got it ratified in 2017.

Jasmine: Yeah, I know that was around the time I got elected. So I remember like one of the big things that people were talking about at the Capitol when I first got there, it was like “ERA” and “ratify the ERA” and all this stuff. So, yeah, you're right. It did just kind of make a resurgence, like out of nowhere. 

Kate: So incredible and so exciting, but also points to the fact that it's unfinished business. It is unfinished business of previous waves of feminism and honestly, of the founding of our country. 85% of countries have a gender provision in their constitution. All modern democracies have a gender provision in their constitution and we do not. And so I think it's, you know, people in 2016  were like, “Oh, okay. Wait a minute. We need like major reform. We need like foundational change because this is not panning out for us.” And so a lot of people returned their thoughts towards the Equal Rights Amendment. So it was ratified in Nevada in 2017, Illinois in 2018 and Virginia, the final state needed, in 2020. 

The way that I got involved, I graduated from law school and I was like, “wait, so we're still not in the constitution? Like, that's not cool.” I, you know, I'm fighting, I'm a lawyer, it's like, “wait, what?” It's like, “excuse me. I think I was sold a bill of goods here that women are equal in this country and I'm now realizing that's not even remotely true.” Especially when you enter the workforce and you're like, “oh no, I am not going to accept this.” So, yeah. And I am just like a real sucker for a long shot, you know, like changing the entire structure of the Mormon church? Why not, you know, editing the constitution to include women. Let's do it. You know, let's see if we can. 

And so now, you know, the ERA is in somewhat of a limbo where right now President Biden could instruct the national archivist to certify and publish it. It has met the requirements. There are only two requirements in article five. The first one is to pass by two thirds of Congress, which we did. And the second one is to have three fourths of the state legislatures ratify it, which again has happened. So many people, not just me, other distinguished legal scholars argue that the ERA is the 28th amendment, that it has been ratified. It does exist and it just needs to be recognized. And so that's sort of the battle we're in now, of fighting for its legitimacy and trying to help people understand that it is the 28th amendment. It has been properly ratified. 

And not only that, but it can be an invaluable tool specifically when we talk about reproductive rights and freedom. I think one thing that can quote unquote, save Roe is ratifying the ERA. 

Jasmine: Awesome. All right. So before we go, we always like to ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. So are you ready to answer some questions? You're a lawyer, so you got this.

Kate: Sure!

Jasmine: So you actually referenced Legally Blonde in your book. So do you have a favorite quote from the movie Legally Blonde?

Kate: “What, like it's hard?” 

Jasmine: Haha. Also my favorite quote, so good. All right. So what's the best advice that you've ever been given?

Kate: Ooh. The best advice I've probably ever been given, or one of the pieces of advice, is from a woman that I write about in my book, Sonia Johnson, who was the founder of Mormons for ERA. And she said she refuses to debate women on issues where men benefit most. So they try to pit us against each other as if it's like a cat fight. And she said like, “I won't participate in creating that narrative.”

Jasmine: Oh, wow. That's actually very good advice. All right. So what's one of your favorite female politicians in office right now?

Kate: There are so many cool, incredible groundbreaking women in office right now. I'm going to, I know I already talked about her, but I'm going to say Pat Spearman. Oh, my God. I love her so much. She's like, she resurrected the ERA. She's in the Nevada Senate. She also got the ERA on the state ballot, so this November, they have a state ERA for their state constitution on the ballot in Nevada, which is incredible and groundbreaking. And it's an intersectional era. So it doesn't just talk about gender, but it talks about race. It talks about ability. It talks about national origin. It's like this intersectional equal rights amendment. So I'm going to say Pat. I would probably always say that though. 

Jasmine: I love it. I love it. All right. So social media can be a crazy place. What's the wildest thing you've seen on social media lately? 

Kate: Oh, God, lately? I don't know. I feel like the thing that's wild to me about social media is people is that really repeat bad behaviors and create a culture that is very, very exclusive. So they want to be able to slap other people down in order to get that hit of dopamine. But it's really bad for organizing. They want to go viral, but I want to build movements. You know what I mean? Like I want to build community. I want to build a movement. I want to call people in. I mean, we are at such a low point, like we're losing our fundamental right to access abortion in the United States, like now is not a time for division. So that's one of the wildest things about social media to me is it's kinda, it's kind of this competition as opposed to, you know, a tool to build community and move forward. 

Jasmine: Yeah. I can agree with that for sure. I think, I definitely think that we could use it for good or for bad. And we have a lot of people that are choosing to use it for bed.

So with that, that is the end of our rapid fire questions. You did an amazing job. All right. So tell us, where can people go and find out more about you and about your work. 

Kate: The best place to find me is probably on Twitter. It's Kate underscore Kelly underscore Esq. I'm also on Instagram. I also have a website. Also buy my book, Ordinary Equality. And also I have a podcast, same name, Ordinary Equality. So if people want to know more about the Equal Rights Amendment and especially about the connection between the ERA and abortion, listen to Ordinary Equality.

Jasmine: I love it. I love it. This has been such an amazing conversation, Kate. I really appreciate you coming here and just bringing all of your information and your knowledge and sharing so much with us. And I could tell that we could have, we could have kept going, but I really just appreciate all that you are doing and all that you are contributing to the work. And I just want to say thank you so much for gracing The Suburban Women Problem with your presence!

Kate: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I love the work that you all do too. So the feeling is mutual.

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Rachel: Welcome back. You know, Jasmine, I think with anything, if we can get more information and understand the history of something, it really helps give us context for what we're going through now. And I think that through-line helps us to see, this is not anything new. We're just understanding in a different way. But I love the idea of incorporating the ERA as a way to combat this. And we'll see where that goes. 

Amanda: Oh, man. I always hated history because it's taught by men, it’s usually written by men, but man, especially when I hear women talk about the history of things and I hear a lot of historians now, I'm like, “oh, it's so much more interesting than it was in high school.”

Jasmine: Yeah. I definitely think that, you know, tying in the history, it just provides context that I think is absolutely important. Because I think there's so many people that think, like, the things that we're dealing with, the questions that we're trying to answer, you know, this is all new. And I think if people really understood the history and really kind of saw how things developed, where they came from, they would understand a lot more what the true agenda is.

And so that's why I really appreciated talking about, you know, the ERA, the history of abortion, and we even got to sneak in some quotes from Legally Blonde. “What, like it's hard?” 

Rachel: It’s my favorite quote, by the way, that's like my favorite quote from Legally Blonde. 

Amanda: All right. So before we go each week, we like to leave you with something positive that we call our Toast to Joy. So on that note, Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Rachel: My Toast to Joy this week is that after tomorrow, I will not have really any travel on my schedule for quite a while. So I'm pretty excited about that. Cause it's been a little bit crazy lately and yeah, so that's my, it's my Toast to Joy. It's not very exciting, but I'm very in a bit of a slog lately. I'm just, I'm really tired. It's know. It's also like the end of the school year, so there's all the extra things to do and attend. So my Toast to Joy is to slowing down a little bit and working on the stuff that's been put on the back burner for quite a while. So what’s yours, Amanda? 

Amanda: Mine’s actually similar. So the end of the school year is usually when I'm completely exhausted and I'm ready for all the emails and everything to stop. And I got to go visit the beach for a week last week. It was so nice. I mostly unplugged and didn't pay attention to anything that was happening other than, you know, watching my kids run on the beach and act like crazy kids. And they can just like run around on the beach for hours! Like, don't need a screen, nothing. They, I don't even know what they did exactly. But for two hours, there was no fighting. Two hours they just ran around. I don't know what they did. It was so nice. 

Jasmine: Kids are really good at that. Like, you can just like give them a beach. They don't need anything else. It's just like water and sand and imagination and they can just go wild. 

Amanda: Oh, it was so relaxing. Alright, Jasmine, what's your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: So I have two, but they're both brief. So my first of joy was the Gwinnette County Democratic Party had their annual gala. And so we call it Bluetopia. And so because we call it that I decided to wear the super cute blue dress. And I got so many compliments and I just felt like, so pretty. And just so like, it was really good. I think I needed that boost of just like, everything is not horrible. And so for a moment, everything was not horrible.

So that’s Toast to Joy number one. And Toast to Joy number two is that my son's birthday is this week. So his birthday is always Memorial Day weekend. And this week I get to see him and we're going to do some fun stuff up in Maryland for his birthday. So I'm really excited. 

Amanda: Oh, happy birthday. That's so much fun. 

Jasmine: He’s turning 16. So like secretly I don't understand how he’s so old and I'm so young. I don't know how this is happening. It's weird. 

Amanda: Haha. 

Jasmine: All right. So with that, thank you so much to everyone for joining us today and we'll see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.