Patriotism… It’s Complicated

It’s the 4th of July and, like a lot of Americans, we have some complicated and nuanced views on patriotism. So today, we’re releasing a special bonus episode of the podcast where we discuss what patriotism means to us. Tune in to hear Rachel Vindman, Amanda Weinstein, and Jasmine Clark discuss their thoughts and feelings about Independence Day, America, and how patriotism means working to make the United States a more perfect union… for everyone.

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For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

 SWP S2 E28 - A 4th of July Bonus Episode

Jasmine Clark: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine: And this is a special 4th of July bonus episode of The Suburban Women Problem.

Rachel: This week is the 4th of July and, like a lot of Americans, I think everyone on this podcast has some complicated and nuanced views on patriotism. So we wanted to take a moment to speak about what patriotism means to us. 

For me, I grew up in a town that has one of the top ten 4th of July celebrations in the country. And we have, you know, there was always a big parade and a huge firework display. And it was just a day to spend with friends and family and celebrate the United States and always just really patriotic, you know, all the time. Then I grew up and I married a soldier and I think… for so long, I really believed, and I still believe, in American exceptionalism– in a way. 

But I say “in a way” and couch it, I guess, because the reality is, you know, the more I know and the more I seek out to learn things that weren't taught to me about my country and– or things that I've chosen to ignore, I should take better ownership of that, things that I have not explored– you know, my views have become more complicated. But I still very much believe in this great experiment that is the United States, of self-governance, which is what, you know, our founding fathers sought to do. And I believe in a more perfect union, which means just like we are all striving to be better versions of ourselves, that our country strives to be better versions, a better version of itself. Which obviously means righting wrongs and exploring where and how we can be better.

When we lived in Moscow and Kiev and, you know, representing, I would say, as the ambassador represents the President, you know, in a lot of ways we were representatives of the Pentagon and the Department of Defense. And I was so proud to serve alongside Alex in that way. I mean, you would just walk in a room with a group of people, all the military members in their uniform and were like “There’s the United States of America. The United States has arrived.” And it was such a proud, proud feeling. And it will never not be true for me, but we, I, have a lot of work.

So patriotism to me means celebrating our, you know, iconoclast past of daring to dream and do something different, even if it wasn't started by perfect people, but people who wanted something different. And that has evolved and we can all continue to want something different and better. When I really struggled with it, I thought of maybe my grandparents, who I love dearly and have the best memories of, but gosh guys, they got some things wrong. And they taught me some of those things that were wrong and I've had to deal with that myself. And it's been hard at times. It doesn't change the good that they were or what they did for me, but they weren't right about everything. And I'm not right about everything as a mom either. 

So I just want to continue to fight for our freedom, but that means fighting for freedom for everyone and being proud of this beacon of hope, the shining city on the hill, that president Reagan said, because I really do believe that the United States is that. I've traveled all over the world, I've lived in many places. The opportunity that exists here is so unique. It is like nowhere else in the world. I think what patriotism means to me is continuing to be a part of making the United States a more perfect union… for everyone. 

Amanda: Oh, that really resonates with me, cuz I was actually thinking about my parents and I think about, like, this process of growing up, like you kind of idolize your parents as these, you know, “my parents are perfect.” Right? They're the best parents. But at some point you grow up and you start to see the flaws and your parents and it isn't that you love them less, but you understand them more. Yeah. And I think my journey with patriotism has been similar to with my parents. Sorry, mom, I love you, but I know you're not perfect. Where I love my parents, right, but as you grow up, you realize they're not perfect. They have cracks and they have flaws and, and that's hard, when you realize that and you have to really struggle with it. But it's real, it's a more realistic picture of the country or of your parents or whatever, you know, it's a more realistic picture and there's kind of a weird beauty in that realism.

When I think about patriotism, so when I hear that word, like I first see the flag, I see stars and I see stripes and I picture it, right… glorious, waving in the breeze. I also picture it kind of bloodied, in the dirt. And to me, when I think about patriotism and I think about the flag, it's not just the flag, but it's what the flag represents. And when I think about the flag, I think about all of the stars on the flag that represent each state. And I think about our country as a community. And I think about it representing this community that is large and diverse and complicated and has a history, but it truly is a community of people. And you know, it's messy at times. 

But when I think about this community and what binds us together, kind of like the threads on this flag, is I think about the American dream. And I think about what the American dream means to me. And I think about the American dream, meaning, you know, that we all have freedom and opportunity to succeed. You know, whatever that success looks like to us. And that American dream is, you know, idealistic, sure. But I think when I think about this country, I also think about it as something that we somehow are, but always striving to become at the same time. That patriotism to me means fighting every day, in big ways or small ways, for that American dream, that freedom and opportunity for all people.

And to me, that's why I, you know, went to the United States Air Force Academy. It's why I commissioned into the Air Force. But it's also why I went on to teach at a university. All of these ways. And even when I think about as what I do as a mom and for my community, you know, and as a friend and as a wife, I feel like there are little things that I do every day that fight for that American dream for freedom and opportunity for my kids, but also for everyone and for everyone's kids. So it's also why I advocate for the policies I advocate for and why I fight for policies that provide freedom, true freedom and opportunity, for everyone. 

And for me, education is a big part of that. When I think about freedom and opportunity, I also think about the education and the educational system that

our country’s provided for everyone. And that was a big thing for the US, that we were among the first countries to provide a really tremendous education system. And I don't think we quite give it the credit it deserves for the freedom and opportunity and the American dream that it provides for everyone. And so I think about all of this, when I think about patriotism. 

Jasmine: Oh, all right. So when I think of patriotism, you know, my views on it have changed quite a bit as I've lived longer and I've paid attention and I've learned more. You know, when I was younger, patriotism was flags. You know, I thought of flags, I thought of, you know, the military. I thought of fireworks on the 4th of July. Like that was like my very sophomoric unlearned view of patriotism. 

And I'm like y'all, I believed in the American dream, I believed in the American experiment and I truly believed in American exceptionalism. Having traveled, I do still think there is exceptionalism, but I also believe that there are a lot of things that America gets wrong and we are just not willing to even admit that there might be a better way. And I, I can't wait for us to get out of that. Like, to pop the American ego bubble so that we can actually embrace that there are actually things that other countries do better than us, and they take care of their people better than us. 

But I also would be remiss if I didn't mention that celebrating the 4th of July feels different when I think of it in the context of slavery. And the fact that while we are celebrating the birth of the nation, and freedom from tyranny, people who look like me, my ancestors… they were not free. So while you had people that looked like me fighting in this Revolutionary War, you also had people that looked like me being enslaved and treated like an animal.

And so, when I think about all of those things, you know, it makes it a little bit harder for me to just feel the same way about the fireworks display on the 4th of July, because I'm looking at this in a much bigger context, but here's what I’ll say. Y’all talked about how you realize that your parents weren't perfect, the older you got. I think being a mom has really helped me to understand my relationship with our country, because we all have had situations where our children have disappointed us. And we have all had situations where we are like, “What the heck? That is not my vision for you. I did not teach you that. I don't know where you learned that. I don't know how we got here.” And we've been very, very, very disappointed, but no matter what, that didn't make us stop loving our children, even through the disappointment. We still love them. And that's kind of how I am with the country. I've been pretty disappointed with the country continually for a while now, but it is still my country and I still love it. And so in the same way with our children, in our disappointment, we teach them, we discipline them. There are consequences. We, we try to fix all of the things that we feel are broken.

I feel like that's my duty as a person who loves this country, is not to just say, “You've made me mad, I no longer love you. I'm done with you.” We can't do that. And so, if you really love the country, even through the disappointment, you find ways to, to make it better. So I, I think patriotism to me is loving your country, even when your country lets you down. 

Amanda: I love that. That's what I was thinking too. It's easy to love your kid when they're like getting that award and they're at the piano recital, right? That's easy. Sorry. It is. It's easy to love your kid when they're doing something great. It's a lot harder when they just really screwed up big time. That is a bigger, more important, more meaningful type of love. 

Rachel: It's really hard when people criticize my husband for being a traitor. I mean, obviously that's hard in and of itself, but if I didn't love my country, I wouldn't care. I would just leave. I have the means to leave now, I could just go somewhere else. I could live an easier life. The fact that we fight that shows that you're willing to work at it. And that only comes from love. 

Jasmine: True love. Unconditional love. 

Rachel: Yeah. True love, right. That, that you're willing to put in the work and devote your time and energy to that. So it's, it's such a silly argument and I wanna shoot it down every time. 

Amanda: No, and I don't think it holds weight with women. I feel like women, we know this, like for what we said with like our parents, our children… but I also, like, I think about my house? Which is a little silly, right, but like, when you really love your house, you fix it, right? You're like– we love fixer uppers, right? Our husbands. Right? We love to offer advice, right, when they–

Rachel: I don’t know, I’ve given up there. 

Amanda: Haha. And we do it cuz we love them and we want to see, like our house, be the best. It can be our children, our husband, right. This is natural to us. Like we, the way we understand love and patriotism is through like, we're gonna fix it up when we see it needs a little fixing up. 

Rachel: I mean, again, you only do that if you're invested in something. So when they say we don't care about our country, that's just, it, it doesn't, I mean–

Jasmine: We all know it's not true. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Jasmine: I think it makes you more patriotic to be like, “I don't like this.” 

Rachel: Thank you. 

Jasmine: “And I wanna fix it.” Than to be like, “Everything's fine. I'm not gonna do anything. I will let this whole country crash and burn just to wave a flag and be like, everything's, you know, everything's great.” You see that something is wrong, you fix it. That is love. That is patriotism. 

Rachel: Wow, your, your answers to this question have been so inspiring to me. And this is one of my favorite times of year to celebrate our country, but we can't do it if we don't remember, I think, that in 1776, when we signed that Declaration of Independence, not everyone was free.

Jasmine: Exactly. 

Rachel: We do hope that you all have a safe and happy 4th of July. We're gonna be taking a little summer break next week and there won't be a new episode of the pod, but we'll be back again on July 20th and we'll see you then. Thanks for listening to another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.