Parenting Against Extremism (with Samantha Kutner and Kyle Spencer)

If we really boil down the work we’re doing, the forces that we’re fighting against, and reduce them to one thing… it would be extremism. Whether we’re talking about January 6, mass shootings, or the fall of Roe, it all comes down to right-wing extremism. So that’s what we’re talking about today.

The hosts are joined by Samantha Kutner, also known as The Proud Boys Whisperer. Samantha studies violent extremism and the gender dynamics of radicalization. She explains how extremism in the US has changed over time, the role of misogyny in these movements, and what parents can look out for to ensure their own kids aren’t being groomed online by right-wing extremists. You can find more of Samantha’s research about the Proud Boys online at the Khalifa Ihler Institute or by following her on Twitter @ashkenaz89.

Then Rachel shares her interview with Kyle Spencer, the author of “Raising Them Right: The Untold Story of America's Ultraconservative Youth Movement and Its Plot for Power.” Kyle and Rachel chat about the origins of the ultra-conservative movement in this country, how the far right cares more about power than winning hearts and minds, and why right-wing extremists have been so successful in recruiting young people. “Raising Them Right” will be in bookstores on October 18.

Finally, Amanda, Jasmine and Rachel raise a glass to audio books, vacations, and the importance of mental health resources during difficult times in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

The midterm elections are now only 16 weeks away! If you’re ready to join the Great Troublemaker Turnout, please sign up here. Suburban women are taking a stand - join us!

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 29

Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. You know, if we really boil down the work we're doing, the forces that we are against, and reduce them to one thing, that would be extremism. Whether we're talking about January 6th or the fall of Roe, it all comes down to right wing extremism. So that's what we're going to talk about today. 

I'll get to share my interview with Kyle Spencer, who has a book coming out in October about how ultra conservative movements are targeting young people. And before that we'll be joined by Samantha Kutner, also known as the Proud Boys Whisperer. Oh my goodness.

But first, it's good to see you all again! We took a week off the pod for a little summer break. Did you guys get a chance to actually rest and we cover a little bit? How are you doing? 

Amanda: Oh, we've mostly been in campaign mode now, so we've had like parades we've done, and back in the swing of like, “Where's daddy?” I'm like, “I don't know.” Haha.

Jasmine: Haha, yeah, same. I definitely have not got a lot of rest because the campaign is in full swing and we're spending a lot of time planning. We're getting, you know, materials in and spending three hours addressing postcards. I did a school supply giveaway yesterday, got stung by a bee in the process. 

Amanda: Oh no, hopefully you're not allergic.

Jasmine: I am not allergic. And that's a good thing, but you know, we have just been like out there and we're doing things and we're meeting people. So I would say that rest is probably going to elude me for the next 16 to 17 weeks. 

Amanda: I know, there's a lot that goes into this. I think people aren't like, even just knocking on doors is like, yeah. It’s a lot.

Jasmine: Yeah. It is a lot. 

Rachel: Hey Jasmine, I just wanna say that one of our first letters from our daughter from camp, it was kind of one of those sad camp letters that, you know, they talk about on TV or whatever. One of the things was, “I got stuck by a bee on my chin!” 

Jasmine: Oh, no!

Rachel: But yeah. So we've been traveling with Alex as he has some things going on. So it has been a little bit restful, sounds like a little bit more than you guys.  but also, I just love to sit at home and do nothing, especially on really hot days. So I'm not gonna lie. 

Amanda: Oh my gosh. We went to see a Chicks concert and they have a new album, it's super great, I love it. One of the lines in there is they talk about “I'm a little bit more traveled.” Talking about compared to some of the younger model women, like, “well, I'm a little more traveled.” You're just a little more traveled!

Rachel: Indeed.

Amanda: Also, highly recommend the new album and their concert was amazing because of course they're gonna say all the things that I wanna hear. And everyone in there, I mean, like I'm in kind of reddish Ohio, but oh man, could they pack that stadium! And like just being there with mostly women that were all like, “you're on my side, you're on my side.” It was a good feeling. 

Jasmine: I bet. I think that's a testament to just the actual country. It's like, yeah. Even in a red area, the women are sticking together on this. And that is that we still want control over our bodies.

Amanda: Oh, but you know, who's not with us. Oh, that would be Ohio's Attorney General, who went on Fox News to gaslight the 10 year old who got pregnant. 

Jasmine: I'm so upset by this.

Amanda: And had to go to Indiana. So then they basically, you had all of these male Republican politicians going on Fox News, Jim Jordan saying that they didn't believe it happened. 

Jasmine: One of the things that really bothered me about that whole thing is a 10 year old–

Amanda: 10 years old! 

Jasmine: Like a little girl was raped. A little girl was raped. And as a, as a result of that rape, she got pregnant and people stepped in to help her, including this doctor in Indiana. And out of all of the people in this story, the Republicans, and specifically that Attorney General, they made the villain of the story… the doctor!

Amanda: Yeah, because then, because this is why, because then once it came out that they actually made an arrest and the guy confessed. They're like, “whoops, I guess this person exists.” So now how do we pivot from there? Because we're definitely not gonna apologize because that is not in any Republican playbook to apologize when they're wrong. So instead they pivot and say, “well, let's now blame the doctor for doing this,” even though it is very dangerous for a 10 year old to be pregnant. Like how low can you go? 

Rachel: Jim Jordan deleted his tweet, but who saw it before he deleted it? No one knew he deleted except for the people who were checking his account.


Jasmine: Yeah. You have to be as intentional about retracting as you are about saying it in the first place. 

Rachel: Yes you do. And they're not. Which means they're just not serious. I mean, none of them are serious about the truth and that includes the media and the politicians.

Amanda: But that was the other thing that irritated me. So once Attorney General Yos went on Fox News, it got picked up by like the Wall Street Journal. Who was also second guessing this saying, “there isn't a story.” And like, you know what, the doctor who performed the abortion is a credible source! But they thought this woman doctor was not a credible enough source.

Jasmine: And not just that, they then went after her. I just, I just can't get over the fact that they went after her. And the reason why this really bothers me is, when you do that, you signal to other doctors that this is what could happen to you if you try to defy us. We will put your life and your family's life in danger by telling everyone who you are and vilifying you and making you out to be this horrible person, because you did something right. 

And we know most reasonable people understand that this doctor is not the villain, but there are people who consume this right wing media. And we're talking about extremism today, and let's just be real, this extreme right wing propaganda that says that somehow this person who saved a 10 year old's life is the bad guy.

And then the, all these gross takes about, “oh, well, she would've just learned that getting pregnant was a blessing.”

Amanda: Oh no. Oh no.

Rachel: I haven't heard that. Which is probably good for my blood pressure. 

Jasmine: Oh my gosh. Some of those, some of the takes were really gross and they have literally bent over backwards, done all types of mental gymnastics, dumb gymnastics, to find a way to say, “yeah, it's kind of sad, but there's always like a blessing when there's a pregnancy involved.” And I'm just like, “I can't do this.” 

Amanda: Oh, I mean, that is less than two years older than my daughter. Like if you saw a picture of my daughter, she is a little girl. And I'm not just saying that cuz she is my baby, she is my baby. But she is a little girl. And that was all I was thinking about, like this girl is less than two years older than my daughter. And I don't currently have the right in Ohio to decide what is best for my 10 year old. And, you know, who's been very silent? Moms for Liberty, parents’ rights crowd. 

Jasmine: Oh, I know! 

Amanda: Parents' rights crowd are now suddenly very silent about my right as a parent to decide what happens to my 10 year old. Cause it was never about parents' rights. And we know that.

Rachel: It was, I mean the, every single thing they say can be turned against them because the arguments they use are never what they say they are. It's just a catchy phrase, but they never really mean it. Moreover they never mean for any of these things to apply to themselves. They never think that they will fall victim to the laws that they're passing. So they never think that it'll be their wife who bleeds out because she can't get a DNC.

Amanda: Yeah. Or, or I have read, if it's their daughter that needs the abortion. They think their daughter's the exception, not the rule. 

Rachel: Absolutely. 

Amanda: And they go take their daughter to get the abortion. Meanwhile saying, “you don't understand her circumstances.” 

Rachel: Yes. They know the reason. Yeah. They can rationalize it.

Amanda: You have doctors and legislators deciding, is it enough blood, right? How much blood till it's she's too close to death? And this is what I was thinking, when Sarah Palin talked about death panels, which weren't a thing when it came to the Affordable Care Act, all the conservatives took that and ran with it. “Oh, there's gonna be death panels.” Wasn't true. False. We've now had the Affordable Care Act for a number of years, there's no death panels. But now that there is an exception for the life of the mother, basically those doctors and those lawyers at the hospitals become the defacto death panels. They decide how close to death you are. That's a death panel, right? You can't say, “I'm too close to death for me.” Your husband can be crying, “Please save her.” And they could say, “oh no, not close enough to death.” 

Jasmine: Yeah, I, I definitely agree, which is why, you know, we're talking about extremism and I think, you know, the, the fact that you could be laying in a hospital bed and there are other people outside of the room, not in your body, you know, not even a part of your family. There are literally lawyers sitting and deciding whether or not it is okay for that doctor to save your life. That to me is extreme. 

Rachel: Absolutely. So for me personally, it can be hard to understand the appeal of right wing movements, but they're so successful in recruiting people. So I think we need to talk to someone who is an expert in extremism and radicalism. Samantha Kutner has a background in psychology and communications and studies, violent extremism, and the gender dynamics of radicalization. She consults with organizations about far right threats and also counsels people who are considering leaving extremism movements. Hi, Samantha, thanks for joining us.

Samantha Kutner: Thanks for having me. 

Rachel: This is such a timely conversation as we continue to learn more about the Proud Boys' involvement in the January 6th insurrection, your education is in psychology and communication. Talk to us a little bit about how you became an expert in violent extremism. What led you to this work?

Samantha: Well, it's interesting. My plan was to become a dance therapist. 

Rachel: It's almost the same thing!

Samantha: Haha, yeah. So I grew up kind of halfway in and out of the Orthodox Jewish community. And as a dancer, I was always kind of in between both worlds. And so some of my early research was focused on religious fundamentalism across the board. And how it reduces psychological flexibility. And I noticed at this time, right after Charlottesville, there was a group backtracking from their involvement. They were claiming that the members weren't really members if they went to this event, that the group was really just a misunderstood fraternal drinking organization. And that was how I got into this crazy world. And it's just been a series of crazy unplanned events and rolling with it. And now I'm here. 

Amanda: Wow. So you said something interesting there, that religious fundamentalism I think makes you less psychologically flexible. Can you explain that a little more?

Samantha: Yeah. So I think that it's good for people to connect, be connected to their communities, whether it's spiritual, whether it's, you know, just community based, but there is a certain kind of thinking across religions that literally interprets biblical texts. So documents written thousands of years ago. When you try to apply everything in that to the modern day with no interpretation, no nuance, it's gonna be incredibly difficult. So a lot of people tend to shut out anything that conflicts with an increasingly more narrow world view. And so I see religious fundamentalism as a way that grooms people more or less into disconnecting from their humanity by adopting these incredibly rigid posture standards and belief systems.

Jasmine: Wow. I think about just like physical flexibility and, you know, the ability to, you know… physical flexibility is really good for you, right? It's actually good to have that flexibility in your muscles and joints to be able to do things just in your everyday life. And so I love this visual of lack of psychological flexibility. It really limits you the same way your physical lack of physical flexibility would limit what you can do. 

So how would you say violent extremism has changed over time? Like the news is making it seem like there's more episodes. Would you agree? Are you seeing more episodes of violence by these extremists?

Samantha: I think it is more highly documented, but it's not entirely new. I think after the Buffalo shooting, the public was beginning to understand what the great replacement theory is and narratives and the belief that Black and brown bodies aren't just existing, that they're an existential threat. And the way that that ties back into the evolution of extremism was… really what we were focusing on after 9/11, we shifted our focus to studying foreign terrorism and we were focused on foreign concerns. We weren't investigating the networks and cells that were forming. 

And so officials involved at the highest levels of government tried to warn about the rise of domestic extremism and they were largely ignored. Journalists who tried to cover extremism were… there were things that you couldn't talk about because the fear of potentially being sued for a libel was very strong. Although people are having more collective courage these days. 

So what we're seeing now is the combination of you know, the continuity of the transatlantic slave trade more or less, combined with the isolation of the pandemic, combined with 2020, which saw race riots in every city, conspiratorial thinking, Trump's reelection campaign. So the evolution of the Proud Boys really reflects the evolution of the mainstreaming of these ideologies that used to be on the fringe, but have now become mainstream. 

So Proud Boys are more or less opportunists. And in the report that the Khalifa Ihler Institute, where I work, submitted for the January 6th select committee, we talked about how Proud Boys think in terms of what maximizes their visibility, what it's not necessarily what they believe, it is what can they glom onto? What narratives are popular? What conspiracy theories are mobilizing a strong base?

And for a long time, it was the the fear of Islamization, the fear of cultural Marxism, which is a dig at my people. Whatever Proud Boys want to glom onto they will glom onto, but if you look at the incidents, you'll see how they shifted their narratives and how they gained so much momentum in such a short amount of time by appealing to really the, the unexamined parts of the American fabric. 

Proud Boys are very good at not just optics, but identity politics. So, you know, it's just more important as a, as a standard to, to listen genuinely, listen to people and understand their lived experiences, to see where these radicalizing narratives might intersect. But Proud Boys are really, really good at glomming onto whatever the newest thing is that can generate more support. So the latest is the fallout from January 6th, the belief that the election was stolen, that anti-fascists actually committed the storming of the capital, which all data does not support. 

Amanda: Wasn't it them? Weren't they at the Capital? 

Jasmine: I mean, they were planning it or a part of like pre-planning meetings and stuff! Like, what?

Samantha: Yeah. They had a private chat and they were coordinating there. It was Proud Boys and Oathkeepers who were the largest organizing contingent. And they were in a group called Friends of Stone. And Roger Stone was actually very actively involved in that. So it's just like finally seeing it in these public hearings is very… I don't know if vindicating is the right word, but it's just like, oh, now everyone can see.

Rachel: I listened to the last January 6th hearing. We were at the airport, so I, I listened to it. Then a couple days later we had a tour of Berlin. We talked about the youth movement in Nazi Germany. So, can you talk a little bit about the, about the, the recruiting of the youth? Cuz both the people who testified Tuesday, I didn't see their faces till later, but they were quite young comparatively. I mean, they were at the beginning of their life, not so old that they were old and bitter. Not my age! I mean they were young! 

Samantha: Yeah. I mean the national humiliation after World War I and the cognitive opening that provided for extremists is really important to mention.

And there are certain parallels in our country. I mean, our society, there are so many ways that it can fail people. And there are those things that require structural solutions that take time and courage and collective action and mass organizing. And it's so much easier to find someone to blame and affirm your identity in the collective blaming of another group, if that makes sense. 

So it's, it's not just hatred of Kamala Harris or Nancy Pelosi or Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. It’s that the hatred of them… it becomes this interactive activity. How many dehumanizing things or memes can you create to collectively show how much you hate this individual? And the scary part about that is if you've built up this animus and resentment and you are not taking ownership of your problems… 

Something that I have experienced for years interviewing Proud Boys, you just continually look for people to blame and your problems still get in there. So the solution can often be... “Oh, maybe, maybe it's not just enough to dehumanize them. Maybe we need to start targeting them in different ways.” They're so amped up and they're, so they don't even have the tools to take responsibility for their lives. And I'm not calling them, you know, victims, because everyone has a sense of agency, but, you know, a lot of people are uniquely susceptible to these narratives that kind of give them a false sense of empowerment while dehumanizing other people. So it's kind of like a steady slow drip of ideology to combat humiliation, whether that's at the national level or the other. And then it's a little bit different, like, youth culture in World War I versus now, and all the social media tools that happen, but the same dynamics are there.

Amanda: Wow. So you talked about a lot of the Proud Boys, they’re othering people. Whether it's, you know, Jewish people or people of a different race. And I know part of your research looks at the gender dynamics of radicalization. Can you talk a little bit more about that? 

Samantha: Sure. There's an article, “Take the Red Pill: Understanding the Conspiratorial Allure of Proud Boys” The red pill is that Matrix reference, like Neo in The Matrix, you are opening your eyes to this new reality with Proud Boys. It's opening your eyes to this new reality of male subjugation by women under feminism. 

So it's like they see themselves like this. They want to invert this perceived paradigm, but this is what makes them really authoritarian at their core. And so once you can see politics as an emasculating force, as like some version of feminism or their mother or their girlfriend that was not really great to them. You can try to flip that and assert dominance, or try to assert that you are better than people. It's a, it's coming from a place of deep insecurity. And honestly with a lot of them, I can't generalize for all of them, but a fundamental lack of basic social skills. You know, how to deal with rejection, how to actually recognize emotions beyond anger, how to be vulnerable. 

You know, the Republican party, I can't say it's been hijacked by extremists as much as they're saying the quiet part out loud now. And I, I do hope that Democrats and suburban women and everyone who could vote for basic civil rights being protected can also be mobilized by the fear of other groups gaining momentum. If they can't be mobilized by like, it's the good thing to do, all of the Republicans and the far right contingents that are mobilizing at an increasingly fast rate hopefully can motivate the majority of the people to, to turn out and vote and get involved in their communities. Whether it's mutual aid groups, or other support services or volunteering, things that genuinely make their communities in society better. 

Jasmine: You know, we have a lot of listeners that are moms and they are moms of young boys. How do they know where this grooming for radicalization is taking place? And like, what should they be looking out for so they can protect their children? Especially as their children get older and they have a little bit more independence and everyone's got a phone and access? 

Samantha: Yeah. So this, this is something I would love to talk at length about and I'll do my best to summarize, but I've reached out to the Khalifa Ihler Institute and a little bit later this week, we're gonna compile a list of resources and quotes from extremism researchers who are also parents.

So one thing that I would suggest is reading the leaked Daily Stormer guide. In it, they talk about blurring the line between satire and irony and genuine hate speech. They actually tell people upfront, “you shouldn't come off as a genuine rage and hatred.” People should just kind of embrace the absurdism and not really know where the line is and it's how people edge into extremism. And so one thing that I would suggest is– I'll, I'll share a link to the leaked Daily Stormer guideline, and please like, if parents, if it evokes anything or it makes people come up with additional questions, they're always welcome to reach out. And if not through me, through my extended network of people, we can help come up with some additional solutions.

But in general, you know, parents are the first line of defense in this. And some fears that others have told me about is, you know, if you're looking on your kid's web browser and you find anything related to Chan culture or FourChan image boards, that is where some of the most notorious content is. And it's not that all of FourChan is bad, but there is a certain contingent of increasingly more nihilistic, desensitized, antisocial destructive figures who are actively trying to groom children. To radicalize them and try to get them into becoming the next mass shooter. 

So that's, that is a space to, to monitor, you know, cuz some stories, like Christian Picciolini, for example– you might be aware of him, former neo-Nazi– at one point he was involved in deradicalization efforts. His parents were working all the time. He spent a lot of time with his grandparents, he was kind of back and forth. And he started by, you know, being edgy to gain attention. The desire to matter to others, no matter what way they do, is a very strong thing. And it's kind of like a cry for help. But with kids, if you're noticing that they're withdrawing more or they're increasingly becoming more desensitized to things or like their level of empathy is being reduced, or like, if there's a mass tragedy and the kid starts laughing about something or references something or, you know, like that… that level of desensitization combined with humor is a big part of these cultures.

And so there is a lot that you can monitor, but really, just being as present as you can, obviously letting them learn, you don't wanna stifle them, cause then they'll probably rebel and go seek out stuff anyway. But understand that there are people in any social media space that connects people to other people that are actively seeking to look for ways to radicalize and recruit people into the next movement.

And all it takes is like one rejection handled poorly to find these online spaces that are like, no, no, it's not you. All women are like this and all women are terrible. So this is where like women you know, moms and dads can come in to show what healthy relationships look like? What healthy parenting looks like, just showing compassion, care, and being as present as you can would be a good thing. 

But we'll, we'll compile a more comprehensive list of resources and hopefully by the end of the week, we'll have everything or as much as we can provide for resources for parents looking for more.

Rachel: As if we didn't have enough in today's world to be concerned about as parents. But it is really good to have it, you know, easily spelled out for us. So, Samantha, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell people where– of course reference everything your resources in the, in the show notes, but where can people find out more about you online? 

Samantha: Sure. My website where I have research and community care resources is proudboyswhisperer.com. The really data heavy, data driven resources are at the Khalifa Ihler Institute. We just submitted our report for the January 6th Select Committee, so you can find that there. And on Twitter, I'm just @Ashkenaz89. And that's where I have the majority of media and research and resources.

Rachel: Okay. Well, thank you again so much for joining us. This was very informative, so we really appreciate it. Now we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we'll have my conversation with Kyle Spencer.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is an award-winning journalist and frequent New York times contributor. She's the author of Raising Them Right: The untold story of America's ultra conservative youth movement and its plot for power available in bookstores on October 18th. I have an advanced copy and I must say it is fascinating.

So I am so excited, Kyle Spencer, to welcome you to The Suburban Women Problem. 

Kyle Spencer: Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, Rachel. 

Rachel: You know, extremism is behind so many things that we're fighting against. January 6th, the fall of Roe, Don't Say Gay, mass shootings, oh my goodness, the list goes on and on. How, how do you think the ultra conservative movement has managed to take hold in the US?

Kyle: I would say that the movement has been, has been building up for years and years. So when I talk about it, I talk about long term planning. Well-organized organizing, extremely well, and funding a lot of the projects that ultra conservatives want to do. 

So when I think about the birth of this conservative movement, this new conservative movement, it starts around the 1950s, when you had these very wealthy folks who were partnering up with evangelicals and with anti-communists. And sometimes this is referred to as a three legged stool. And early on, these groups began to realize that if they wanted to realize their, you know, ultimate dreams in this country, they needed to have allies and they needed to have what was kind of considered sort of unlikely allies. So, you know, you had thought leaders in their camp who were working on different ideas, you had activists on college campuses, and then you had wealthy donors, you had religious folks, and they all were starting to kind of think about coming together. And as they, once they did come together, they became very, very organized in their planning and in their thinking about how to push, how to push their stuff forward and how to kind of allow it to catch on. 

Rachel: So I've read The Evangelicals by Francis Fitzgerald, Unholy by Sarah Posner, and then the book that I recommend to everyone, Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin DuMez. And they all tell this story in a different way. And that's why I'm so excited about that part of your book I think that really talks about this youth movement, which is something that hasn't really been covered the books that I've read.

But I think it's a really important element in this whole thing, in this whole movement. So again, I, as I've gotten into it, it's just so, so interesting. And I'm someone who's, who's read a lot on the subject. This is how I was raised. I was raised in Oklahoma in a Southern Baptist church. So I can certainly chart a difference in my lifetime of, you know, where, where this movement was and where it's going now.

So you, you talked about, you know, how they managed to take hold, but why do you think they've been so successful? Like overturning Roe, for example, you know, when the majority of Americans don't support this policy?

Kyle: The thing that's, I think, really important to understand about the far right is that the far right considers itself a kind of marginalized group of people. A minority. They consider themselves a kind of silent minority that no one listens to and they hold this belief system very dear and very close to their hearts because it's a belief system that allows them to then do a lot of things that are kind of outrageous and potentially illegal and violent, right? That they are being put upon at all times. 

And so, at some point early on, it became very clear that there was kind of these two sides, one side that wanted to convert and one side that said, “we don't need to convert. We just need to win. We need to win seats in state legislatures. We need to win seats in Congress. We need to get the White House and we need to get our stuff done.” So it's very, very focused on results and a lot less, ultimately, as these two sides, you know, continue to kind of work together less on converting. 

This is a collaboration of unlikely allies, but they're able to get stuff done that the vast majority of Americans don't want because they don't care what they want. They believe they're right. And that's where the fanaticism and the obsessiveness and the kind of obsessive religiousness of this movement comes in. It's like, “we know we're right.  God has told us. We're right. We need to do whatever we need to do to get what we want accomplished.” And so when you put it in that context, it's like, “oh, okay, well then they're not winning hearts and minds. They're strategizing.”

Rachel: Yeah. I always think of, you know, what's been said about Pastor Jeffress at First Baptist Church, Dallas, because he talked a lot about just wanting to win. And not a lot of people are willing to say it out loud, but he has said it out loud. That's why I think it's, why your research is so important to put this together and to connect the dots for people. 

Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that, the thing that really again, what I began to see was some of these youth activists that I was following is that religion was a little bit in the background for them. But as I continued to report, particularly with some of them, religion kind of entered the foreground much, much more and then became a really driving force for them. 

And I would say that the thing that is really interesting in terms of understanding how this movement works, particularly with young people, is that it is a kind of win at any cost thing. First of all, the philosophy that's taught to young people is that you kind of win at any cost. That winning is what matters. It's a kind of the, you know, the ends justify the means. 

And then the other thing that is, I think really interesting is one of the things I learned about these young activists and how they were taught to activate for their side was that they were taught a lot about power. Young conservatives inside the movement at conferences in leadership schools. They're taught about what the nature is of power. And I, and, and this is something that we can talk about a little bit, power on the right and power on the left. But what they're taught is that power is not about making friends. Power is not about being in the room. It's not even being close to, you know, it's not even being in the room where the decisions are made. Power is getting what you want. That's all it. Power is getting what you want. And that's what they're taught. 

And because power for the far right is, is, is really at the top of their, of their desire pyramid, that's how they operate. And what a lot of people who, you know, understand how progressives and Democrats work, they know that we get a little uncomfortable with power. Democrats aren't comfortable with power because power is hierarchy. Power gets tyrannical. Power gets authoritative, power gets corrupt. Right? We understand this and those words, “authoritative,” “corrupt,” “tyrannical”... those are words we don't like. Those are things we don't like. Those are not necessarily words the far right finds disturbing.

Rachel: You're so spot on. You have diagnosed so many issues just now. So we, we often think of youth as sort of automatically liberal and we've interviewed a lot of inspiring youth activists on our podcast, but right-wing extremists are targeting youth in different ways that are frighteningly effective. What did you learn about the ultra conservative youth movement while you were researching this book? 

Kyle: So first of all, one of the things I understood early on is that right-wingers get that most young people are progressive. So their goal is not to go to UC Berkeley or go to Brown University and convert everybody. Their goal is to shave off the edges. And it's exactly the same goal because this is an integral movement and because the youth works so closely with their elders, this is exactly how conservatives want to win Latinos: shave off the edges. Win African Americans: shave off the edges. You know, so that's the first thing. This is not about “we're gonna get everyone at a liberal arts college to, you know, support banning Roe V. Wade.” 

One thing that they really bring to the table for people is a sense of belonging. So these youth groups, when they're on college campuses and when they hold conferences, belonging is a really big part of what they offer to converts. And so a lot of the leaders understand that there's kind of a, like there's the activism and the political aspects, but there's also the social aspects. And so a lot of these youth groups will not just offer events to hear speakers, but they'll offer pizza parties or let's go to gun ranges and shoot our guns. And that’s so another thing that really works that, that they do purposefully.

And then kind of tangentially, one of the things that's worked for them, particularly on college campuses is this kind of “cancel culture” or this, this “identity politics.” What happens is you get like these sort of moderate kids on these college campuses and they're in classrooms where they don't feel like they can say certain things. And they will then get picked up by these radical right activists who often come off in the beginning as more moderate than they really are. 

Rachel: So one of the things that I think is so fascinating in your book is you, you start out talking about Charlie Kirk and Candace Owens, and it's, I had no idea that they work together, but it, its an interesting question. I mean, we hear about people of color and even members of the LGBTQ community being recruited, even though the policies would be against their interests. Can you just talk a minute about that, why that's happening? 

Kyle: One of the things that historically the modern conservative movement has been really good at is co-opting single issue voters. Finding issues that they stoke rage and fear with, so, “they wanna take our guns, they wanna kill babies. You know, they wanna silence you.” So these are all kind of a single issue, single issues that can get people to the polls. 

And so what you'll find with– always, always I found– the leaders of color or members of the LGBT community who have gravitated towards the right, which again, as you pointed out so astutely, really does often work counter to their best interests is… they get, they get lured in through an issue, right? So maybe they, maybe they are religious and they believe they they're pro-life or– which I don't, you know, they support government mandated pregnancies– or maybe they are really strong on the second amendment, or maybe they're maybe young people who come from a family of a small business owner and they've seen how certain regulations really have been bad for their parents’ small businesses.

And, and this, again, this is something the right has understood–and for a lot of reasons that again are complicated, that we haven't understood so much–is that not every voter, not every young person, not every politically engaged person identifies first and foremost with their color or their gender. Right. They may actually first and foremost identify with some other issue. That’s how they get converted. 

Rachel: That's absolutely brilliant. Yes, a hundred percent. What surprised you most about researching and writing this book? 

Kyle: So the thing that surprised me the most in the beginning was how much I actually liked these young people in the beginning. This is four years ago. I did not agree with their viewpoints, but I saw them as really driven and really committed to their cause. They also tended to be very magnetic, these were after all leaders of these movements, so I found that appealing too. They loved politics. And in the beginning, when I was first reporting on them, they were actually willing and able to have conversations about issues around reproductive rights, taxation, you know, they were able to have conversations. And so what surprised me was that I liked them. What surprised me at the end was how much I had become deeply scared of them. There wasn't like a middle ground. 

Rachel: Wow. That's a lot to unpack. I'm gonna have to think about that answer for a while.

Kyle: It was like, it was like what a lot of us experienced, but I experienced it up close. I was like, “Surely you don't believe that. Surely you don't, you don't think ballots are being stolen. Surely you don't think that the election might be stolen. Surely you wouldn't start you, you know putting up YouTube videos with young people holding guns.” Like I, I thought that, and then I began to realize, “No, surely this young person will actually do anything for this cause they're so passionate about.” I saw the transition in these young people over four years and it was horrifying. 

Rachel: So is there anything we can do in our communities to offset this extremist wave organizing?

Kyle: Organizing, organizing, organizing. Collaborating, doing a lot of the stuff that Red Wine & Blue is doing so well. Working inside communities, growing the base and, and, and, and encouraging–and this is a group project, this is a “we” project, right?--encouraging donors to really invest on the ground in groups that are actually talking with voters and talking with young people on a regular basis.

Rachel: This has been such a fascinating interview. Thank you for stopping by The Suburban Women Problem! You can find Kyle Spencer on Twitter @KyleYSpencer and her book, Raising Them Right, will be available on October 18th.

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Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I really loved your interview with Kyle. It's really interesting for me to hear these conversations about how, I mean it's especially religious fundamentalism, especially with evangelicalism, how they're taking advantage of these youth. And it's interesting for me being part of that background that I can see… I mean, I didn't see it then, but growing up, I can see where they're using this hyper-masculinity, and that is just something that they glom onto. And so, you know, it's interesting to hear that. Also disappointing. I just, I don't know, that's not the religion to me. And it is sad to me what has been done to it.

Jasmine: Absolutely. I think this is a good time to talk about something happy.  

Amanda: We do. We need a big Toast to Joy for this episode. So my Toast to Joy actually kind of relates what we're talking about. So I am listening to Jesus and John Wayne on audio book right now. It has been in my list of to-read books for quite some time. And I am now halfway through. It is such a good listen. 

And my Toast to Joy is actually to audio books. Because when I sprained my ankle, I couldn't run anymore, and I was like, what am I gonna do for exercise? So I've started walking a lot more and I've been walking my dogs a lot more, but I'm like, what am I gonna do on an hour long walk? And I was like, oh, audio books! So I listened to my first audio books. I really, really enjoy them, I've gotten through so many more books than I would've otherwise, especially as you know, we're all busy moms. It's so much easier to get through a book when I can listen to little half hour chunks, you know, walking my dogs or doing the dishes. So, oh my gosh. My Toast to Joy is definitely to audio books. I love them. They're amazing. 

Rachel: I listen to them all the time, either audiobooks or podcasts, and I kind of just smile or nod, unless I think it's really important, if someone else is talking to me in my house. And that's true. 

Amanda: Haha. That’s so funny. 

Jasmine: It's like, your escape. You're like, “yes, I'm here physically. But right now I'm in this book.” 

Amanda: Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: So my Toast to Joy this week is to going on vacation to Sedona, Arizona. And we went on hikes in the hundred degree weather, it was kind of insane. I don't know why we decided that it would be fun to go hiking when it was–

Amanda: Wait, did you do it at night or during the day? 

Jasmine: Middle of the day.

Amanda: Oh no, that was, yeah. You gotta go at like 10 at night. 

Jasmine: Well, but the reason why we didn't do it at night, I mean, we were in the straight up desert, like, so desert that where we were saying, the only place I had internet was when I was physically in the house. But when I was outside, I had no internet connection whatsoever. I had no data on my phone. Like, that's how desert we were. And so nighttime hikes would've been horrifying to me because there's no lights, no lights at all out there. 

Amanda: Scary. 

Jasmine: And it's very naturey.

Amanda: Haha. Here’s the trick. You get a flashlight and eyeballs shine up like headlights out at night. So if you have a flashlight, you can actually see animals better that way, because from a distance you can actually see their little eyeballs. 

Jasmine: Yeah, but then what? Like you see the eyeballs and then–

Amanda: Haha, yeah, run away.

Jasmine: Then you're running in the dark! Yeah, so we did not hike at night, but we, we did a hike in Sedona called Devil's Bridge. That was really fun except for the fact that we misread the map. And we did Antelope Canyon, which was probably the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in person. It really honestly looked like someone created that place, and the fact that nature created it is just amazing to me.

Amanda: That sounds awesome. 

Rachel: So my Toast to Joy is a little different than what I thought, but I have a friend from Twitter, he's an army veteran, and yesterday his daughter and one year old grandchild were in the Indiana mall where there was a shooter. And her instincts kicked in, I believe she's an army veteran, her instincts kicked in, they closed the door, they barricaded themselves inside, and thankfully they were fine. Unfortunately, I believe four people lost their lives. But you know, my Toast to Joy is that, if this can be a Toast to Joy,  that the tragedy was not greater than it was, and also that as an army veteran, you know, he has the unfortunate experience of knowing that when it started to hit her a few hours later–because you first just work on adrenaline and you react to things, but now she's starting to think about it more in depth– and he can help her through that and tell her, you know, what she's experiencing is normal. She needs to just talk with a mental health professional and help her have those resources. 

Sorry, I feel like we're not like ending on a happy note, but–

Jasmine: Oh, I think the happy note is we are 16 weeks out from the midterms. We are not in an impossible situation. We are not in a hopeless situation. We actually have power and we have the power to do things as soon as 16 weeks from now. Like there's real power in the fact that we can get out there and change the landscape and the direction that our country is going. 

But it really honestly takes not just the people who already were gonna vote, but the people who might not even know there's an election happening, cause trust me, there are people out there that have no idea an election is coming up. It's gonna take all of us. And so I think there's a real opportunity and there's real hope in that we can change things. We can send a message to the people in charge that we will not accept this as normal. I don't care if it happens every day, we're gonna do something about it until it stops happening.

Rachel: Absolutely. And one thing you can do right now is sign up for our Great Troublemaker Turnout. Visit redwine.blue to learn more. As the midterms approach, it's more important than ever that we keep having these conversations. We'll see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.