Pro-Choice is Pro-Democracy (with Dr. Diana Greene Foster and Christina Ward)

We’re now only three weeks until the midterms and today, we’re focusing on the critical issue of abortion rights. We’ve talked about it before and we will keep talking about it until we are all guaranteed the right to choose for ourselves when (or if) to become a parent.

The hosts are joined by Christina Ward, a woman in North Carolina who wrote an op-ed about how important abortion access has been for her personally. Amanda then sits down with Dr. Diana Greene Foster, the director of the Turnaway Study, which looked at the lasting effects of having – or being denied – an abortion.

Finally, Amanda, Jasmine and Rachel raise a glass to early voting, Stacey Abrams, and the Akron Children’s Hospital in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

With the election just around the corner, it’s time to organize - and who better to help us rally our squad than Amy Schumer? On Tuesday, October 25th, she’ll be joining us for an interactive event where everyone –including Amy– will pick at least 10 friends that we can reach out to about what’s at stake in this election.

And if you can’t make it, don’t worry we still got you! You can visit RWBVotes to claim the friends that you’re committing to talk to about this election and get personalized support from us. You can find more information at RWBVotes.com.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 42

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Amanda: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. It's great to be back with you ladies this week. 

Jasmine: We missed you. It was like, I mean, I feel like you deserved a little break since you have never been absent before. 

Rachel: I know, I did not know that until, yeah, we talked about it.

It was great to have Jo. She was really fun. 

Amanda: Yes, she's great. 

Rachel: And it's funny, I talked to her the next day and she was like, “Oh, I'm sorry. When we were doing blah blah blah, I totally just blanked and I didn't say the right thing.” And I was like… we do that all the time! 

Jasmine: There is no right thing.

Amanda: No. So we got to spend a long weekend at Disney with the kids, which was super fun. But not a vacation, but fun, just different. 

So our weekly election countdown is now at three weeks. Talking to the people in your life is the most effective way to make a difference, and you can keep track of those conversations by going to RWBVotes. And once you're there, Red Wine and Blue can help with talking points and one-on-one support. That's RWBVotes.com. 

As we know, one of the biggest issues that's mobilizing women to vote is abortion rights. So I am so excited to share my interview with Dr. Diana Foster. She ran the Turnaway Study, which I talk about all the time… as important as the stories women have been sharing, as we know, women aren't always believed and that's an issue. So one thing the Turnaway Study really does is it backs up what women have been saying. So it really magnifies the stories women are already telling by saying, “This holds up in the data.” And what women are saying are things like, “Hey, our reproductive rights matter for our future and they matter for our kids' future.” The data and the Turnaway Study all backs up these. 

Jasmine: I love that. I'm a data person too, so I appreciate the Turnaway Study because it really digs deep into the long term consequences of denying people access to medical care. This affects people’s everyday lives now and in their future.

Amanda: Absolutely. And I think the brilliance of this report was to make a fair comparison. So what some people do with data is they make unfair comparisons, you know, making these comparisons that shouldn't happen. And using data to say like, “Well if you have an abortion it will, you know, make you more poor. It’ll put you in poverty.” That's actually not true when you actually make a fair comparison. But we'll get more into that later. 

So before that, we'll be joined by Christina, a woman in North Carolina who wrote an Op-Ed about how important abortion access has been for her personally. But before we get to all that, how are you all doing? What did I miss? 

Rachel: Well, I don't think you've missed anything. The crazy is still happening. So, good news. You can't escape it.

Jasmine: So much crazy. We talked about–

Amanda: There were some crazy debates that happened!

Jasmine: Yeah, I was just about to say, we talked about Herschel Walker last week, but then the debate happened and I'm like, “Y'all, seriously? Why is this even like, remotely close?” Like I do not understand how anyone can take that guy seriously. The bar was set very low for him, and even with a super low bar, he still got, you know, put in time out on the stage in public for pulling out his toy badge. 

Rachel: I can’t believe this happened. And when the moderator was like, “Thank you for putting that away.” Like the total teacher voice. I'm like, I do not understand why this is even close.

Jasmine: Me neither. 

Rachel: This is just, ughhh, it just drives me nuts.

Amanda: Yes. And the things the Republicans drive into the conversation, I'm a little tired of. Like the NBC News story that they had to cover and do like a month of reporting on litter boxes in schools. First of all, it is really important to shut down that urban legend that there are litter boxes in schools for kids who identify as furries. It's absolutely not a thing. And I had no idea, like, so many people actually think that that's a thing, from Joe Rogan and politicians to people sharing it all over Facebook. And I was like, “Why are we having a conversation about litter boxes?”

Jasmine: Yeah, I mean, I think it just gets back to the point… toy badges, litter boxes, you know, all of these things are distractions. There are things that are really kind of meant to get people to stop talking about the real issues. You know, we wanna talk about everything except for the fact that the GOP is trying to take rights away from women in our country. We wanna talk about everything except for the fact that the GOP is legitimately like, “You know what? That $35 insulin cap thing that we did, we wanna get rid of that. Oh, and while we're at it, we might as well try to slowly dismantle Medicare and Social Security as well.”

They don't wanna talk about those things. So instead they put litter boxes and toy badges at the forefront. And that's what everyone talks about.

Amanda: And that's the point. Like we wanna be exhausted with these crazy distractions so that we talk about litter boxes and not talk about how can we make our schools more inclusive for kids of all different races, gender identities and everything, right? 

And they're ignoring not only what their constituents want, but also. I was really surprised when we had… so Emelia Sykes is running for Congress and she met with the kids and so many kids talked about that they're afraid of guns coming to their schools and they're afraid of shootings in their schools. Like this was something that I did not realize was as top of mind for our kids as it is. And maybe I should've as a mom, like, I don't know.

I just didn't realize how much they were. I felt like my kids were too young to be worried about that yet, and they're not. They're worried about it now. And shouldn't politicians care what our kids feel, what our kids want for their future? 

Jasmine: I had this conversation with a teacher. We were just talking about how we really should listen to children because the decisions that we make today are gonna affect them the longest, and they're the most vulnerable to the decisions that we make because they can't vote for us.

But that's the whole thing. Because they can't vote for us. They are not being listened to. So when they say, “I do not want to get shot in school, I do not like these active shooter drills, and I wish you would do more to stop the guns from coming in school in the first place.”... They're saying these things and then the people in power are saying, “Yeah, but can you vote? No? All right. Talk to me in four or five years when you can actually cast a ballot and then I might listen to you. But maybe not even then because you all do not vote in the same numbers as the 65 and older crowd who I'm really listening to and catering to.” 

So I mean, to your point, Amanda, they should be listening to the children. These children have parents, they should be listening to the parents of these children. But instead they are leaning on the fact that the people who have these concerns, the people who are most affected, are also the people that can't kick them out of their job. 

Rachel: I completely agree with you, but… if people aren't voting and maybe their parents aren't voting, but the 65 and older are voting, they will continue to have an outside voice. Because that's how it works. 

You know, a friend of mine was talking about… he's the campaign manager for Marcus Flowers and they were door knocking in Georgia, and someone slammed the door in his face and said, “I don't do politics.” Guess what, politics does you!

Amanda: Haha, it’s true. 

Jasmine: Yeah. I've had that exact experience. They didn't slam the door in my face, but they literally were like, “Yeah we don't really talk about politics here.” And I'm like, “Okay. We don't have to talk about it, but I need you to still vote.”

Rachel: And, and that's just making it relatable. That's just, you know, educating. And so many times I think we underestimate the voter. And we need to educate them. I think people have the capacity for a lot more understanding. 

I talk about this a lot, like people feel intimidated when it comes to working on a campaign or being part of something, cause they feel like they don't have the skills.

Amanda: They're made to feel like they don't have the skills.

Rachel: Yeah. Right. That's true. But, I mean, I think it's really important to communicate… so there was a story last week about a girl in Florida. It was really hard for me to even read, obviously, she was the same age as my daughter, a middle schooler who was the victim of incest and got pregnant. At first, it took a long time for them to figure out that she was pregnant. They told her it was, she was exhausted because of recovering from Covid. But it turns out she was pregnant. But she didn't figure it out until after 15 weeks, and in Florida after 15 weeks, there are no exceptions for any reason at all. 

And I shared that story with several friends with whom I've had conversations just to emphasize, I know we talked about this. Here's a real world example. And that's what we have to do, in a gentle way. Like “I know this is hard to read cause we have daughters the same age, and I know this is hard, but I need you to read this and understand this is not like a theory, this is a real thing that's happening.”

Amanda: Yeah, and I think that's a good point because you cannot legislate every example of why a woman would have an abortion.

Jasmine: Thank you. 

Amanda: It's not possible. Like we've already heard, like, you need legislation for if you had Covid and thought you were exhausted and happened to be a victim of incest, right, abortion might need to be an option for you. How are you gonna legislate that? Like, every woman's reason for wanting an abortion is different. It's personal. It is unique. 

Rachel: Yeah. It's really important. There are all these reasons and we can't talk about all of them, but, but just know this is it and it, and it's going to affect you or someone you love eventually. I promise you it will. 

Amanda: Mm-hmm. So I think this is a good time to bring in our next guest, Christina, to talk about her experience. So she wrote an op-ed last month titled “My Abortion Saved My Life. Don't Take This Choice Away From Other Women.” Christina, welcome to the podcast. 

Christina Ward: Oh, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

Amanda: So we wanna thank you for being open and vulnerable and I mean, this is a topic that a lot of people, you know, are very clearly not able to talk about and it's important that we all talk about abortion, but it's definitely not easy.

So in your article you wrote that you've had two abortions and you remain grateful for both because you know they saved your life. Could you tell us about that?

Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think I've always viewed the abortion I had when I was in high school as having saved my life. And I think I never really made the connection with my second abortion after my assault as also saving my life. But both of them, even though they were under very different circumstances, they had a throughline of it being a moment where I was in no place to become a parent. My living situation was not solid and great, and I did not want to be pregnant. It just was clear to me that had I not been able to make that decision for myself, I know that I would have considered suicide as the only other option for me.

And it's really hard to actually say that out loud. It's… sorry, I'm realizing like, you know, writing it is different than saying it out loud. But it just is a truth that I know. And I think that's one of the things that motivated me to write about my story was thinking about, you know, with the fall of Roe, with the Dobbs decision, I realized that there are girls and women facing those kind of situations right now in states all across the country, and they don't have the options that I had. They don't have the freedom to make that choice, and it's just really so deeply heartbreaking and gut wrenching. And it honestly just makes me wanna scream. 

Amanda: I mean, I think it's important like abortion's already a sensitive topic. And then you add the topic of suicide, which is often framed as this, like moral failing also, and you just have this double whammy of talking about something that a lot of people don't want you to talk about. 

Christina: Right.  

Jasmine: I don't think that people truly understand because when they talk about exceptions for this and exceptions for that, I know in Georgia we specifically said not mental health. Like mental health was not considered an exception if, you know, cause it was like “life of the mother,” but suicide doesn't count as an exception for “life of the mother.” But it's explicitly written that way. And the reason why was like, “Oh, well then women will just go around being like, I'll commit suicide.”

Amanda: Yeah. It magnifies the “us not believing women” narrative. That we can't believe women. 

Christina: Absolutely. And North Carolina has that same exception explicitly written, I think they added that in 2014 here actually. And yeah, I mean it's not, we don't make it easy in this country to talk about either one of these topics. So the idea that women would just be out, you know, saying “I'm suicidal” goes against everything we know about the way the court systems work and the way we treat mental health. I mean, if you're a mom and you have other kids, there's a risk that if you were to say you were suicidal, you could lose custody of your kids. So all of these things are just so co-mingled and tied in knots.

Rachel: So, you know, one of the things that really struck me in your piece is you talked about the stigma of abortion. Especially, you know, you said you faced judgment from your doctor, which is just crazy to me. When he saw that you had a previous abortion on your chart, he said, “Hadn't you learned your lesson about birth control yet?”

Christina: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, it's funny because I didn't even really consciously remember that moment until I started writing, and then I was trying to really put myself in the place of remembering what this experience was and what parts of it were important to share and that would like really get at, you know, something that other people could relate to.

And then I remembered that and I had to include it because I thought like, that speaks to the way we sort of stereotype who gets abortions and who gets multiple abortions. And I think people really don't, they don't stop to think like, if someone's had two abortions, what would be the circumstances of that? And so it's very limiting. It makes it harder for us to talk about it. It made it hard for me to get support because I didn't feel like I could tell anyone. 

I talked to my mom about this right before I wrote the story and shared it because she didn't know. Up until this point, she still didn't know. And I didn't actually know what my mom's feelings were about abortion. And so it was really cathartic to be able to share that with her and get support but to also realize that the stigma is what kept me from talking to her about it. And for her that was really heartbreaking because she just really would've liked to have been there to support me, and I just didn't know that.

Jasmine: So in Georgia, we have a exception for rape and incest. But it has a requirement that it has been reported to law enforcement and people just say, “Well just report it and bam, there you can have your abortion.” And I don't think that anyone who has never been the victim of sexual assault understands just how difficult that can be for someone to take your chances with the legal system and law enforcement, and then that's the only way that you can get access to care. It's just such a huge burden that should not be there. 

Christina: We, everything we know about the experience of rape victims in the aftermath of that and, and their experiences with the justice system, we know most people don't report. I mean, they don't. And so by definition, having some requirement that requires a report is basically saying, “We don't really care whether this is accessible to people. We're not really concerned about victims. We just wanna sort of make it sound like we are because, you know, the public wants us to be.” So yeah. But I cannot imagine a scenario where that would've motivated me to tell. And if I had been forced to tell right away to be able to get an abortion, again, I just don't, I don't know how I would've managed all of that.

Amanda: It brings it back to the mental health issues. Like that just exacerbates the mental health issues associated with all of that. 

Rachel: They're just taking away all of our choices. I think whether it, I mean, at every step. You know, do you wanna report you were raped or maybe you don't wanna report that. Or that you were a victim of incest. Like maybe these aren't things you, you want to report and that's your own decision, but it is not someone else's decision. People should have the space, not have the deadlines, the requirements, all made by someone else who is a lawmaker.

Christina: Absolutely. 

Amanda: So, Christina, this is a tough subject and I'm wondering, can you tell us about why you chose to open up about this subject and how does this play into what's going on with North Carolina? What's going on with, you know, the political environment there and the midterms coming up? 

Christina: Yeah, so the opportunity got presented to me cause I tweeted in response to something, just mentioning that abortion saved my life in response to some restriction that had been proposed. And it wasn't even North Carolina based, but a reporter reached out to me and asked if I wanted to share my story.

And so at first I thought like, “Well, sure I can share, you know, my abortion after my rape.” As I was processing this, it was occurring to me that I was… well, two things. One, I was avoiding talking about the fact that I had two abortions. Like in my head I could feel myself thinking like, “I'll just talk about the one, the one that, you know, society thinks is more acceptable.” And I could feel the stigma and shame rising in me. 

And I just started really thinking through, like, what can I add to the conversation that would really be impactful? And I think that is what really pushed me to do it, is realizing that I could share about having, you know, being a person who had two abortions. And they were for very different reasons, but both very strongly connected to the impact on my mental health and the risk that I would've been in.

And, you know, on the ground right now in North Carolina, we sort of have a split state in so many ways. We have a Democratic governor and we have a majority Republican legislature, and we're at risk of returning to the super majority in the legislature. If they were to get that, I think they would very quickly move to ban abortion here, and it would be a six to eight week ban. 

And so I really don't wanna be sitting on the sidelines and then it gets, you know, banned or blocked here, and then I'm thinking I could have done more. Maybe if I had shared my story, I would've changed the minds of five people and, you know, they could have talked to their friends and family. 

Before I ever came forward about my sexual assault, it was the stories of other people sharing about theirs that really helped me heal, but also just made me feel less alone and helped me understand what I had gone through through their experiences. And so you know, I think that in combination with the other things is what really just I decided to just do it and hope that it has some impact that matters.

Rachel: I know it did. I'm sure it did. 

Christina: Thank you. 

Rachel: You know, whether it’s your Op-Ed or then doing interviews around it, I think that telling your story, whenever anyone is able and ready to tell their story and willing to tell it, that it does absolutely make a difference. And thank you for doing that. 

Christina: Thank you for allowing me to.

Amanda: Christina, thank you for sharing your story in the Op-Ed and also thank you for joining us today to talk about it. 

Christina: Thanks very much for having me. I appreciate it.  

Amanda: All right. Now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we'll have my interview with Dr. Diana Greene Foster.

BREAK

Amanda: Our guest today is a professor and a director of research. She was the principal investigator of the Turnaway Study, which looked at the lasting effects of having or being denied an abortion. Dr. Diana Greene Foster, thank you for joining me on The Suburban Women Problem. 

Dr. Diana Greene Foster: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Amanda: I talk about the Turnaway Study all the time on the show and in my classes, so I am so excited to talk to you today, and in case someone doesn't know what the Turnaway Study is, could you tell us about it and how it worked?  

Dr. Foster: Sure. So this was a study run out of the University of California San Francisco, where we were looking at the consequences for women of receiving a wanted abortion compared to being denied a wanted abortion. And it was prompted by the idea that abortion hurts women and if it does hurt women, well, how would the experience of getting an abortion compared to people in the exact same circumstances who wanted an abortion and couldn't get one? And little did we know when we started it that the policy relevant question was gonna be focused not on the people who received the abortion, but the people who were denied. Because as we've grown in restrictions, many more people will be denied. 

But you wanted to know how we did it. We went to 30 abortion facilities across the United States where if you're too far along in pregnancy to get an abortion there, there's no one else within 150 miles that can provide an abortion. And we recruited people who were just a little bit too late, so they were denied, and just under the limit and received. And we followed both groups through time to look at their mental health, their physical health, and their socioeconomic wellbeing. 

Amanda: So I think it's interesting you mentioned that you wanted to look at women in the exact same circumstances. So in economics we call that, right, you wanted to get the causal effect of either receiving abortion or being denied an abortion. Why is that so important for your study compared to other studies?

Dr. Foster: Many studies on abortion don't even have a comparison group. So you could follow people who get abortions over time, maybe they're even just people who were willing to report their abortions, and then there's a selection effect of who's willing to talk about it. Here we recruited from clinics people who received and people who were denied. 

So the study design in that way was a success. Those two groups were extremely similar at the baseline, and then as one group went on to, you know, have other experiences and the other groups stayed pregnant, we could see how receiving or being denied an abortion affected their lives. 

Amanda: I think that's so important for the research we do on women, because often we study women and it's not a fair comparison. And so when you don't make a fair comparison, it doesn't really tell women anything, any information that's useful to them. 

So I'm an economist, so the economic impacts are always one of the things I think about first. What did you find about the economic situation of women who wanted but couldn't get an abortion?

Dr. Foster: So this is an area in which there were the biggest differences between the two groups, and in some ways that's not a surprise cause when we ask people, “why do you want an abortion,” one of the leading reasons is that they don't feel like they have the resources to support a child or to support another child.

And sure enough, when they're denied in abortion, we see they didn't have the resources, that many people fell below the federal poverty level. They were less likely than people who received their abortion to be able to hold a full-time job. Not surprising, again, because they're trying to raise a child. And we see it not just in their self-reported economic well being, but we can see it through credit reports that show that those two groups, those who receive and those who are denied, were similar for years before the pregnancy and dissimilar for five years after, in terms of the amount of debt they have, their chance of eviction, and foreclosures. 

Amanda: So a lot of people don't realize that the majority of women seeking abortions are actually already mothers. And when moms are denied reproductive care, when we think about those long term effects, that also affects their children. So how does this affect the children that those women already have? 

Dr. Foster: Yeah, so you're rights, 60% of people seeking abortion are already raising children, are already mothers. That's a very, another very common reason for wanting an abortion is to take care of the kids that they already have. And we can see that those kids do worse in two areas. One is, they also suffer the economic hardships when the household doesn't have enough money. And they're also less likely to hit developmental milestones. So these are things like gross motor, fine motor, social, emotional skills. They're less likely to hit these developmental milestones. And truthfully, we don't know why. Is it because they're living in a household where there's a lot of strain? Is it that, you know, the family stress affects their development? Or is it that the mother is now overwhelmed and therefore less likely to be able to report on her kids' development? But either way, it's not good for the existing children.

Amanda: So a lot of what you're mentioning is that, you know, women are making the choice to have an abortion, a lot of these effects are about resources. Do they actually have the resources that they need to take care of their own families? So it seems like another approach, if we really wanted to limit abortions, could also be to give women the resources they need. 

But that doesn't seem to be the approach of, let's say some politicians. They go for abortion bans rather than giving women resources. So I know you probably, you know, can't jump in the heads of these politicians, but why do you think we don't see more policies to really give women the resources that they need? 

Dr. Foster: It is true the states that have the worst abortion restrictions, the most abortion restrictions, also have the worst maternal health and infant health outcomes. I also think it's just misogyny, you know, the wanting to return to some traditional household where women are mothers only and the family provides all the support and the government doesn't. And that approach, whatever your political philosophy is, that approach does not produce good outcomes for women and children.

But let me just say that providing resources doesn't actually, won't actually solve the problem of unwanted pregnancy. We find very few people say that their only reason for wanting an abortion is that they don't have the resources to support a child. People give many reasons: that their relationship isn't good enough, that they wanna stay in school, you know, that they don't feel like they're in the right health for starting a pregnancy. 

So more money doesn't solve everything. People know their circumstances. Their circumstances are more complex than just whether the government provides enough support. And people have to make this decision for themselves because, it is complex and people are weighing a lot of different factors.

Amanda: That is such a great point. So there's, you know, no one factor. There's gonna be no one kind of silver bullet legislation because this is such a complicated decision and women are weighing so many different factors when they make this decision. 

Dr. Foster: Yep. That said, it would still be the right thing for governments to provide more support, governments and private groups to provide more support, for low income parents. You know, there's no reason why we shouldn't have childcare, maternity and paternity leave. These things make sense. Regardless of your stance on abortion, they would improve children's outcomes.

Amanda: Oh, absolutely. So when we think about these decisions, kind of one of the most controversial is “late term abortion.” And it's something that's particularly misunderstood. And just to remind our listeners, “late term abortion” isn't really a medical term. It's a political term. So what are some things that you learned about why women get abortions later in pregnancy and how those abortions affect their lives?

Dr. Foster: Yeah, that's a great question. It's, you know, probably the area that's most misunderstood even by people who are supportive of abortion rights. And this Turnaway Study, because we were recruiting people up near the gestational limit of clinics, we managed inadvertently to get a huge population of people who were seeking abortion later in pregnancy. So we could actually give you some facts about it instead of just judgment. 

And what we found is–and this is a surprise to me from before I started–people who seek abortions later in pregnancy are actually very similar to the 90% of people who seek abortions early in pregnancy in the first trimester. 

There are things that slow people down. Not having the money to pay for a procedure slows people down. So people who are later in pregnancy tend to be a little poorer. They also tend to be younger, because first of all, because there are extra barriers for young people to get abortions.

But also because the primary reason people are later in seeking abortion is they didn't realize they were pregnant. How could that happen? You know, there are people who are nauseated the day their periods are missed. And those people find out quick. But there are people who don't have pregnancy symptoms, who never have regular periods, who have other chronic conditions where they always feel like crap, so they don't realize that they are additionally feeling bad cause they're pregnant. And young people particularly have irregular periods and just are less likely to realize when they're pregnant. 

And then the other statistically significant factor that delays people in realizing they're pregnant is they were using contraception in the month they conceived. So contrary to anyone's judgments about people being irresponsible, if they're late in seeking abortion care, it could be that they thought they were protected and so they were slower to realize that in fact their contraceptive have failed and they were indeed pregnant. 

Amanda: Mm. That's such an important point. So for me, I totally get this. With my first child, at my very first appointment where I went in, they said, “Hun, you're, you're really pregnant.” And I was like, “I know, that's why I'm here!” And they're like, “No, you're 14 weeks pregnant.” And I was like, “Oh. So I can tell people now?” And they're like, “Mm-hmm, you're fully past that first trimester.” 

And everyone asked me, like, shocked by this, like, “How could you not know?” And I was trying, right? I was trying to get pregnant and did not know. Everyone's like, “Were you sick?” No. I felt better than I usually did. I was running faster times when I was running six miles. You know, everything that would clue you into being pregnant, I had the opposite. So that one I totally get. But whenever I tell people that, they're always shocked, like, “How did you not know?” I'm like, “Oh, it was very easy for me to not know.” 

Dr. Foster: I have two babies–two kids, okay, they're teenagers now–but when I was pregnant, both times I spotted throughout the first trimester. So if I hadn't, if I hadn't been trying to get pregnant, I absolutely could have thought that I was having periods. 

Amanda: Yep. That's what happened to me and it happened with my second, and the only reason I tested with my second, it wasn't cause I thought I was pregnant, it was cause I was trying again. And I knew that I have no indications of being pregnant, so I thought, I'm just gonna test every month no matter what. Which, like, we're not gonna expect women to test every month. 

Dr. Foster: No. 

Amanda: So most abortion ban legislation has an exception for the life of the mother. But the medical literature shows that caring a pregnancy to term and delivering a child is actually more physically risky than having an abortion, even a later abortion.

And I read that two women in your study who are denied abortions actually died after delivery. So one, I think it was from an infection, another of a, of a common pregnancy complication. So I was curious, given your research, what you think about recent abortion ban legislation that you've seen enacted across the country?

Dr. Foster: I'm so glad you asked that question. We already talked about the economic differences. The other major difference between the people who received and the people who were denied was worse physical health for the people who were denied an abortion, who carried to term. Most people are surprised by this, but carrying a pregnancy to term is much more dangerous than having an abortion, Even an abortion in the second trimester.

And what we see is it's not just the experience of childbirth, it's months of continued pregnancy and then it's actually changes to your physiology, your physical health that lasts for years later. So women who delivered were more likely to report chronic pain, hypertension, and also they reported when we asked them, you know, “How's your physical health?, this simple question to rate your physical health, they were more likely to report Poor or Fair physical health for years later compared to people who got their abortion. 

And we as a society just absolutely discount the physical health risks of pregnancy. Mother's Day would be a lot more than flowers and chocolate if we really respected–

Amanda: Yeah we're gonna need more than chocolate for this day! 

Dr. Foster: Yeah. If we really respected the sacrifice that people make when they want to bring a child into this world. That sacrifice is huge and totally underappreciated. 

Amanda: That is such a good point. So one of the things that I love about the Turnaway Study and the group of researchers that have worked on this is that you're interdisciplinary. So you're a demographer, and I know you have people from across, you know, many different disciplines that have helped with this study. And one thing I know the research says is that women tend to do more interdisciplinary research.

And what that gets you is the point you're bringing up, right? So if economists just said– as much as I love economists, right– we might focus on wages and jobs, but we might miss important questions like healthcare and mental health. And we just can ask better questions and get better research when we have that interdisciplinary research, which makes this study just. bonus points, even more amazing. 

So Gloria Steinem wrote an amazing review of your book about the Turnaway Study. She wrote, “If you read only one book about democracy, the Turnaway Study should be it. Why? Because without the power to make decisions about our own bodies, there is no democracy.” Could you talk about the connection between abortion rights and our democracy?

Dr. Foster: Yeah. Anything Gloria Steinem says is great. This, in this case, I feel like one way of arguing abortion rights is that it's constitutional to have abortion rights if it allows people to be equal citizens, equal participants in our country's economy, in our country’s legal processes, in our country's civil participation, in elections and running for office and all sorts of ways in which we wanna be full members of society. And what the Turnaway Study shows is that this small thing, you know, that one day, are you a few days too late for your abortion or are you just under the wire and got your abortion, this one event dictated by only maybe a few days, will have ramifications that affect not just whether you have a child or not, but the quality of your romantic relationships later, your ability to have stable housing, your ability to take care of your existing children, your achievement of aspirational life plans, which can include having intended kids later under better circumstances. 

So the consequences are widespread. It affects not just the woman and child, her existing children, her future children, her partners. I guess it’s not that surprising, how important it is to have control over the circumstances of your births because it really affects the rest of your life. 

Amanda: Oh, that is such a good point.

So on that note, we like to wrap up every interview with some fun, rapid fire questions. All right. Diana, are you ready for this?

Dr. Foster: I feel like I'm on Jeopardy. I have to hit my buzzer! 

Amanda: Haha. All right. Who's one amazing pro-choice politician running for election?

Dr. Foster: Okay, so speaking for myself, not my employer, it's so hard to narrow down favorites because there are so many great pro-choice candidates, right? Including my own representative Barbara Lee. But I'm gonna call out a representative Elissa Slotkin of Michigan. She's in a close race for reelection, and she has bravely spoken out really about the misogyny that's at the root of abortion bans. 

Amanda: Ooh, nice answer. 

We're both professors, which can be frustrating at times, but also really meaningful. So what's the best or most unexpected interaction you've had with a student? 

Dr. Foster: So my most unexpected experience is actually not with a student, but I recently gave a talk at a conference hotel, and I sometimes wonder like, “what do the servers think of what they're hearing?” Cause probably most conferences, hotel conferences, are about really boring topics, not about abortion, which is super interesting.

And I noticed, you know, somebody came to refill my water, but she kept coming back. Like I had plenty of water. And then at the end, she stood in line to talk to me after to tell me how much she appreciated it and that the message resonated with her. Which is so wonderful. She didn't choose to be there. That was her job. But I just love that people are willing to reach out and share. And to feel support from somebody who didn't even know what the topic was coming in really is meaningful.

Amanda: And I love that it is a group of women supporting women who maybe are in different circumstances and women, I think, are really good at that. And I think that study does that to show, like, we are trying to do what we can to bring the research to people and policy makers, to support all women of all backgrounds. I love that. 

All right. Last year you tried your hand at comedy to raise money for abortion funds. You even got to meet Katheryn Hahn at the event, who is the best. I love her character in Bad Moms, that was my favorite one. So if you remember any, could you tell us one of your jokes? 

Dr. Foster: Okay. I am not gonna pretend I said anything funny at that event, there were professional comedians there who more than made up for my lack of funniness. But what was wonderful about that event for me was that I could bring the facts and the science and other people could bring the levity. For example, I know that Shelly Slocum had a life-size walkthrough vulva on the show. So they didn't need me to be funny cause they totally had it. And together we could normalize abortion by talking about it publicly, both seriously, and then not at all seriously.

Amanda: So besides Kathryn, who is your favorite female comedian? 

Dr. Foster: There are two comedians that stand out as being amazing in being funny about abortion, Busy Phillips and Liz Winstead. But one, and one of the funniest bits on the internet is not about abortion, but at reproductive health. And Hannah Gadsby. If you Google Hannah Gadsby on the history of the pill, it's to make you cry, it's so funny.

Amanda: Oh my. Okay. I'm gonna have to see that because I actually talk about the history of the pill in my class. Margaret Sanger, one of my favorite people… Why do we not have a movie about Margaret Sanger and the history of the pill? It is such an interesting story and I have never thought about it as funny, and so now I'm very excited to watch this. 

Well that is the end of our rapid fire questions! Where can people go to find out more about you and your work? 

Dr. Foster: I'm part of a research group at the University of California San Francisco. It's interdisciplinary, it's focused on a lot of aspects of contraception and abortion and HIV care. And you can find us at ANSIRH.org, but it's not spelled like “question and answer,” it's spelled A N S I R H: Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health. 

Amanda: Awesome. Diana, this has been wonderful. We are so excited to have you on the podcast. It's been an honor talking with you today. Thanks for stopping by the Suburban Women Problem.

Dr. Foster: Thank you so much, Amanda. It's wonderful to meet you and talk with you. 

Amanda: Oh, it's great to meet you.

BREAK

Rachel: Welcome back everyone. Amanda, I think, you know, people got so much out of your interview. I know I learned a lot about the Turnaway Study. I'd heard of it before, but I appreciate, you know, just kind of the deep dive. I'm not a data person like you and Jasmine as you talked about earlier, but I do appreciate data.

Jasmine: Yeah. Amanda, you brought it up earlier and I think it's worth repeating. There are so many different situations, there's so many different stories, there's so many different challenges that individuals have when you know, navigating whether or not to have an abortion. And we simply cannot legislate every single situation.

Amanda: Yeah. Something that the Turnaway Study did, and it is not lost on me, that I think we're in an environment now where we have so many stories and women willing to tell their stories and this backs up these women's stories. So to me, this data has really allowed us to believe women. 

Jasmine: Yeah, yeah. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Yep. 

Amanda: All right, so let's transition to our Toast to Joy. Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy?  

Jasmine: So my Toast to Joy… as we are recording this, Stacey Abrams is actually coming to my neck of the woods and campaigning in my area. So I am really excited to welcome Stacey Abrams into Lilburn, Georgia. We're having a debate party, she's debating on Monday night, so we're having a debate party and then she is actually, like her tour bus is driving through Lilburn and stopping at a local Lilburn park. 

And so I'm just really excited. Early voting has started here in Georgia, so if you are listening right now and you are in Georgia, and especially if you're in Gwinnett County, please go vote. We need as many people to vote early as possible for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons is with our new voting laws, we really don't wanna leave too much to chance on election day. And early voting just kind of gives you a little bit more time, should there be an issue, there's a little bit more time to fix it.

So please, please, please vote early. So that's my Toast to Joy. I'm toasting to all of my early voters and also to Stacey Abrams coming to Lilburn, Georgia.  

Amanda: Oh yes, that's a great one. So Rachel, what's your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: Well, my Toast to Joy is early voting as well. Alex and I voted last Tuesday. We drove up, parked, he talked to a couple people who were outside, we went inside, we thanked the poll workers for what they were doing, we got our, showed our IDs, got our ballots, voted, we're in our car in four minutes. All in four minutes. 

Jasmine: Wow. I love that.

Amanda: Go early voting. 

Rachel: It was so easy. There's like the satisfaction of voting on voting day, on election day, and that's really nice, but– 

Amanda: I know, I get a big satisfaction from that, but I think we need to be like, “shit happens, vote early.”

Rachel: Yeah, I mean it was a really great thing. It was actually the 19th anniversary of our first date as well. So here we are, full circle, driving the minivan, like dropping the kids off at school, driving the minivan, early voting, whole shebang. 19 years. It's a little bit different. 

But yeah, we're actually gonna be gone on election day, so we had to vote early.

Amanda: Yeah, stuff happens. 

Rachel: It's just so easy and to know it's done. And so nothing will happen that will get in the way. And that's why I like early voting. I'm just a huge, huge proponent of it. Anyway, so that's my Toast to Joy. Lots of toasts to early voting.

Jasmine: Here, here. 

Rachel: And, and you, Amanda, what's your Toast to Joy? 

Amanda: My Toast to Joy… as great as early voting is, it’s not for early voting, but that is great. Go early vote. 

So my Toast to Joy is we got to go to an event for the Akron Children's Hospital that's like Dancing for the Stars, but it was Dancing for the Children. And it was so fun and amazing and such a great event to see, like, all of the really important work that Akron Children’s does, and we are really lucky in our area to have them. And I know they have taken some heat for offering mental health services to, you know, trans kids. It was really… I know, I shouldn't have brought that up in my Toast to Joy, I was so happy to get to celebrate them. 

So, one thing I love about campaigning is getting to see these different organizations and the work that they do and meet different people who do this really hard work. Cause I think sometimes you can feel like you're the only one fighting sometimes. 

Jasmine: Oh yeah. 

Amanda: And it's not true. There are a lot of people doing their battles and their fights, but you can feel alone in the fight sometimes. So like seeing these organizations, you're like, “Thank you for the work you do and the fighting that you do for our kids and our community.” And so it was a great event. So my Toast to Joy is to Akron Children's and their Dancing for the Children. 

Jasmine: Aw, so cute. 

Amanda: So thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. Our voting tip of the week is to selfie that sticker! 

Jasmine: Oh, I love that! 

Amanda: Yep. So fun. So talk to everyone you know about how excited you are to vote, and when you do vote, post a selfie of your voting sticker. Social pressure is one of the most important tools we have to make sure all your friends know how excited you are to vote. I also like to wear my Michelle Obama “vote” necklace and take a selfie with that cause it's like a pretty little thing. So thank you Michelle Obama for the vote necklace that I got because of you.

So thanks again and we'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem!