Equity Isn’t A Dirty Word (with Carrie Douglass, Ethan Ashley, and Maya Guy)

We’ve been talking about right-wing extremists' push for “parents’ rights” all year and there are so many ways that manifests: banning books, banning sex ed classes, banning rainbow flags in the classroom... and another thing they don’t want our kids learning about is race. This week we’re discussing equity in education, and in particular what school boards can do about it.

The hosts are joined by Maya Guy, who was elected to school board in Virginia. Maya shares some work she’s done to ensure equity for all students in her district, both as a mom and as a school board member. Then Jasmine sits down with Carrie Douglass and Ethan Ashley, school board members and the founders of School Board Partners, an organization that helps connect, inspire and support anti-racist school board members across the country. You can read their groundbreaking report Empty Seats At Powerful Tables or learn more by following them on social media.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to a big move, the Cincinnati Holocaust Museum, and raising the next generation of leaders in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Extremist politicians and outside groups are attacking our kids’ education with book bans. They’ve even tried to ban books about Martin Luther King, Jr. and Rosa Parks. One way you can stand up to these book bans is by reading and discussing frequently banned books like The Bluest Eye and The Hate U Give - and if you buy them through our new affiliate shop on Bookshop.org, you can support books, independent bookstores, AND the work of Red Wine and Blue. You can find our shop here.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 6

Jasmine Clark: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Amanda Weinstein:  I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. We've been talking about the right’s push for “parents rights” all year, and there are so many ways that manifests through banning books, banning sex ed classes, banning rainbow flags in classrooms. And another thing they don't want our kids learning about is race. Whether it's DeSantis banning AP African-American Studies, or the thousands of little ways that students of color are treated unequally every single day, we need to make sure we're providing a safe and equitable space for our students.

So this week I sat down with founders of School Board Partners, an organization that connects and supports anti-racist school board members across the country. And before that we'll chat with Maya Guy, a mom in Virginia who ran for school board to stand up for the kids in her district. 

But before we get to all that, how are you guys and what's been blowing up our group chat?

Amanda: Oh man. As you were saying that, I was like, Oprah was in my head going, “you get a ban and you get a ban and you get a ban! Everyone here gets bans!”

Jasmine: That's how it feels. It really does feel that way all the time. There's a new ban every day. I'm like, “Oh man. We're banning that today?” For a group of people that are so anti-cancel-culture, they sure like to cancel everything.

Rachel: Their freedom feels like I have less and less every day.

Amanda: You have the freedom to do what they want you to do.

Rachel: It's like they're 11 and 12 year olds who are rebelling against their parents' rules. I mean, honestly, I feel like my daughter could be leading this group. But unfortunately it's adults. But I find it so interesting that it's “state's rights,” “parents' rights,” “individual rights.” Also, your children can only read the books that we think they should be able to read. You can only get the medical care that we think you should be able to get, and we are literally going to ban the rest. You cannot even choose to do these things, cause they will not exist. 

Jasmine: You have the freedom to not have choices. That's pretty much like where they are.

Amanda: It goes back to the Civil War! Come on. Like they've been doing this for centuries.

Jasmine: I was just gonna say that. Yeah. As a Black person growing up in the South, when I hear the term state's rights, I definitely hear something probably very different than what some other people might hear. So I hear the right for a state to own my body and to use me for chattel slavery. Like that's what I hear when I see your state's rights. So I always have a connection to state's rights, like in a negative, it's like a negative, visceral reaction whenever I hear it. 

Because I feel like certain people say that… that's really where they're going with it. So this is actually reminiscent of that, right? When they're saying “state's rights,” they're saying I should have the right to control women's bodies in this state, the same way this state had the right to control Black people's bodies in the 1800s prior to the Civil War.  

Amanda: Yeah, that's such an interesting point because as someone who was not raised in the South, right? When I hear what a state's rights should be, it's, right, states should have a right to set their system of governing. To talk about, you know, their state legislatures. But that's what it should be. A state should not have the right to take away fundamental individual rights that our constitution guarantees us.  

Jasmine: Right. Speaking of states, and this is actually a really sad story, out of Michigan State, Michigan State University, another mass shooting. And this time we actually have students there that this is not their first mass shooting. 

Rachel: I mean that broke my heart.  

Amanda: We are absolutely failing. All of us are failing. Like, and it was so interesting I think cause on the last podcast we talked a lot about the stress associated with shootings and this was actually before this shooting happened. Right? And then we see like another one, which is so terrible that whatever we say about mass shootings will always be relevant. Until we change it. And it doesn't seem like we're making huge strides here.

Jasmine: So in my microbiology class, one of the things I do is I teach about microbial history and I talk about when certain things happened. Like for example, the first time someone discovered penicillin on a plate by mistake, it took 40 years before they actually said, “oh, maybe we could use that as medicine.” So a lot of times there's these long spans of time before we actually make a connection. 

And I feel like that with this. When you have students in college that were also in a highly publicized mass shooting when they were in elementary or middle or high school, that shows you that scale of time. And we don't think about these– to your point, Rachel, it's not that we don't think about them as connected, but I don't think we think about them longitudinally. We don't think about them from the standpoint of it's been 20 something years or 18 years or however many years. And we're still doing the same things. And clearly whatever we were doing is not working because it's still happening. And it's happening to the same people. 

Amanda: I think it leads to a huge generational disconnect. So I think for myself, right, and I was thinking about my life, my connection with even gun violence. The first person that I knew that was my age that died, died of a suicide gunshot wound. And then the second person I knew that died, that was my age, died of a homicide, also through gun violence. I lived, you know, an hour away from Columbine. Right? So in my head, even these three things that were my first experiences with gun violence, were pretty rare cause it was over this span in my, you know, of 10 years. 

But what feels rare to me to kids today is not as rare, right? If you look at the data, all of these incidents are on the uptick when you look at shootings, also suicides and all gun violence, right? So now if we think about what it feels like for kids today, it doesn't feel rare. But for us, it might feel rare and for our grandparents, and many of the people leading this country are significantly older than us… to them, it feels exceedingly rare. 

Jasmine: I know! If I have one more 70 year old tell me the story about how they used to show up to school with their guns in the back of their trucks…. I'm like, “Why is that relevant?” 

Amanda: Generational disconnect! Yes. They don't get it.

Rachel: I saw a great TikTok video… I don't have TikTok, sorry, but I do sometimes watch videos, I know this is very controversial. But I was watching this video and it was this guy explaining about what's going on in Missouri. Like why is there so much trans, like anti-trans legislation? In a nutshell, what he said was, “We're the bottom. We're like scraping the barrel, like 48, 49, 50 on all these different subjects. The top five elected officials in the government in Missouri are Republican. They're not giving anything to the people of Missouri. They have to stay in power. So what do they do? They create a culture war.” And that's what all these culture wars are about and it's really important to understand why. And Jasmine, I know you deal with this in Georgia. So creating the culture war creates this illusion that they're doing something or fighting it back against something.

Jasmine: Yeah. 

Amanda: Again, generational! So if you think, I feel like for older generations, they feel like suddenly now we have these woke politicians creating trans kids. Like, no, the trans kids were always there, you just made them hide. And that's where it's like, I feel like it's hard for them to see.

But I feel like kind of the opposite of this with generational thing is actually an abortion. Where if you talk to, especially older women, they’re like “Holy cow, I watched a friend who had a back alley abortion. You know, I've seen this happen, right?” So we had an older woman who, during her time in medical training, she had to treat a woman who had a back alley abortion and save her life. Like I feel in this case, the older women are like people, “What are you doing? We should not go back. Like, I do not want my friends to die. This should not be something that the government is involved in.” 

Rachel: Yeah, that's interesting. Why do we think that is? Because I've, I've had the same experience. I've had a lot of women, older women, tell me about their abortion experiences or their friends' abortion experiences. Like a lot. So why do you think it is, that that's the outlier? 

Amanda: I mean, it's a big population. If you think about it, abortions have been around as long as there have been women. And that we just had different ways of doing it. Now I feel like these older women can say, “You know what? I can essentially, you know, make up for this and I don't have to hide anymore. I had an abortion and here's why I had the abortion, and here is how this saved my life and here's how it helped the children I had afterward.” And I think that's really powerful for women who had to essentially be in hiding 50 years ago.

Jasmine: I 100% agree. I think that when we think about, for example, abortion, you have people that can connect the things that we are actually saying to real life events. Also, it wasn't that long ago, right? So like, 1950s. It was not that long ago. 

Another thing that was not that long ago, but we're still talking about today, is how racism is a part of our education system. So when we talk about Brown versus Board of Education, like there are people walking around right now today, some of them in Congress, who understand the ramifications. They were still around when Brown versus Board of Education happened. Ruby Bridges herself…. she's actually on Twitter, I believe. 

Rachel: She’s 68. Which is bizarre. 

Amanda: I know! In our heads it seems like a long time ago. 

Jasmine: Yeah. But so, so if she's 68, that means that the people who were yelling obscenities at her as she walked into that school…

Amanda: They're still voting! 

But that is a good point because I've… so my grandparents unfortunately have now passed, but like, there are questions that I never thought to ask my grandparents. Like, what did you think when, you know, Martin Luther King died? Like, I never asked that question to my grandparents. And now it's, you know, lost to, you know, eternity. I don't know what they would've thought and what they would've said. But most white people actually didn't support Martin Luther King while he was alive. 

Jasmine: Yeah. 

Amanda: And so if we're going by statistics, they probably didn't either. Just statistically speaking, they probably didn't. Which is also the strength of when we talk about, you know, equity and inclusion and doing better by our kids. Like, it lets them feel better about themselves. Like knowing that their parents or grandparents maybe made a decision they wouldn't. Man, doesn't that empower a kid to know, like, I can be better, I can be even better than our founding fathers were! Like, that's amazing. And that is something we deny kids by thinking they can't handle a conversation about race.

Rachel: Ugh. I could not agree with you more. There are things I've been open about that I was taught that I didn't really think about twice. I was probably too young to question it and, and kind of accepted it as fact. 

Amanda: I think that's natural. So even like, I think the education I got in Colorado was actually pretty good, especially talking to other people, I think it was actually pretty good. But even as an adult, I know there were big holes, especially regarding race. There were just holes. I had no idea that white people overthrew the government in North Carolina, in Wilmington. No idea that was not covered. The kind of white rage and the white reaction was not covered. It was, you know, “racism is bad and slavery is bad. And that was a long time ago. We no longer do that anymore.” And that was kind of it. 

So it did, it felt like a long time ago, like to me, in my mind, the way that I was taught about history and slavery and racism. It was like, “Ruby Bridges isn’t 68. She's 268, right?” That's how it kind of felt in my mind because that's the way I was taught. But I know now there's a lot of holes and things that just weren't said and should have been said. 

Jasmine: That reminds me of a conversation I had with my daughter because, you know, Stone Mountain Georgia is basically a memorial to the Confederacy and it was one of the meeting places of the Klan here in Georgia. And I remember, I don't know what grade she was in, maybe fifth grade. And apparently they were learning about, you know, this part of Georgia history. And my daughter was basically like, “Well, you know, the Klan was, the Klan was.” And I was like, “Well, you know they still try to meet every year.” And she was like, “What are you talking about? Our teacher told us that they don't exist anymore. That was back then.” And I was like, “Yeah, no. I think that your teacher has a lot of wishful thinking, but the truth is, every single year they ask for a permit to do their little convening on top of Stone Mountain.”

I also had a bill that would make March 10th Harriet Tubman Day in the state of Georgia.

Amanda: Love her! First woman ever to lead a raid for the military.

Jasmine: First woman, apparently first African American woman to serve in the military, according to some sources. So this day would go in the Special Holidays section of our code. And so I just read through what all the other Special holidays were as I was trying to make my case for why we should have this and we legitimately have a Confederate history month. It is like in our law. 

Okay, so I think this is a good time to bring in our guest for today. She is a mom in Virginia who ran for school board and won. Hi Maya, thanks for joining us!

Maya Guy: Thank you for having me.

Jasmine: So this is actually not your first time on the podcast! But just to give our listeners a recap, could you tell us a little about what inspired you to run for school?

Maya: I think I was inspired by a bunch of different things. I had been an, I guess an education activist for about a decade in my community, and I'm just a doer. When I see a need, I jump in and do it. I had criticized my school board for never speaking out for black children, if I’m being honest with you. We've just, we've seen so many things, but finally after George Floyd, I was like, “You know what? You have a majority minority school. And many of those students are scared and upset and in pain and they never said anything.” So I wrote an op-ed and it got published and they didn't like it. And one of them said, “If you think you can do better, you know, shut up and run. I'm not gonna run again. Take my seat.” And I said okay.

Amanda: Don't threaten me with a good time! 

Rachel: Watch this! Here we go. 

Jasmine: Exactly. 

Rachel: You know, Maya, I have to tell you, there's something you said in Season One when you were our guest that I think about all the time. I know you're a mom of five kids and you talked about, sometimes you ask your friends and your supporters that they have to miss out on some things. You know, maybe they miss out on a program or a game or something. But this is also something, you know, supporting a good school board candidate who's doing the things that you're doing and standing up for those kids… that's also doing something for your children. And it really stuck with me.

And there were actually a couple times when I went to school board meetings and I was like, but I feel like I should be home helping with homework or, or doing this other thing or just being home for dinner. And then I was like, no, this is important too. And I wanna tell you, it was really inspirational to me and I thought it was such an excellent point and something that we should remind ourselves of. But you are a mom of five. How do you find the time to do it? To do the work you do? 

Maya: I don't know, you just gotta get stuff done. But my kids know they're not the center of the world. 

Amanda: That's a good lesson right there. 

Maya: I just say I'm gonna, I'm gonna miss it. You know, I just saw your last 17 baseball games. I'm not gonna see this one. This is an important vote I want to go to and you're gonna be fine. You have a dad. Lean into that. 

But four of my children are either in college or out of college, I have one that's in elementary school, and I can tell you my adult children, they get it. And they're such good people and they do for others. And I think it's because I have modeled for them that you're great, I love you, but I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna dote on every little thing.

Amanda: That’s such a good lesson for kids. It also teaches them how to take care of themselves. If you put everything to everyone else, they're gonna do the same thing. And we don't want that for our kids. We want our kids to learn how to, you know, take care of themselves too.

Jasmine: Maya, I wanted to ask you, because again, last time you were here, you were running for school board, now you are on the school board, and so you have a little bit of experience now. So how can school boards actually address inequity in our schools? And do you have any success stories or any policies that you're working on? 

Maya: Yeah, so school boards can address inequity by enacting equitable policies, right? Because that's what school boards do. They're, they're the policy head. Unfortunately that's hard for school boards who might have a majority on the board who don't… who think that equity is a dirty word.

I know when I was running, they were dirty words. So much so that I took those out of my flyers because it was a stopping point every single time. I didn't want to. A friend was like, “Hey, we keep getting stopped at this.” I was like, “I know.” But I was like, “Nope. I'm, I'm gonna be me. I'm always gonna be me. I'm not gonna change.” About a week later I was like… “If I change, I might be able to actually get more work done.” Right? 

Jasmine: Yeah. There's that, that balance. 

Maya: And I just, I just spelled out equity as opposed to using the word equity. I spelled out diversity, so it was still authentic. It was still me. It just took 20 more words. And the funny thing is the people who were pushing against equity... love equity. And so that's how school boards have to do it. And that's how you do it. You just spell it out. You don't use the buzzwords. You figure out what the buzzwords are and you, and you still do the good work.

Amanda: Love that. So if parents want to support policies that support equity in schools and policies that are anti-racist at their local school board, what's the best way for parents to do that? 

Maya: I think it's gonna be different for each parent in each community, right? I think there's different avenues that parents can do. One of the things I did before I was on the board is I went straight to the superintendent. I did my research, I had my little PowerPoint, I had all the information that I could possibly find, and I was like, “This is why you guys should do this. This is why you should do that.” 

Or, you know, for instance, one of the things that I was able to get us to do is we call it FOCUS - screening for gifted and talented students. And in my school system, about 15 years ago, it was all white kids. Which is great, there's a lot of gifted white kids, but we're a majority minority district. So why, why are all the advanced classes white kids? Why doesn't it look like the community? And so I went and did my research about how schools could screen for students and basically got them to implement screening. So that way there's no gatekeepers and that starts in second grade. 

Amanda: Wow. So they didn't screen all students? It'd be like the teacher picking out… 

Maya: No, exactly. A teacher picking out who gets chosen. And the teachers, you know, sometimes we just have biases that we don't even know. 

Amanda: Yes. So I've also seen, like even on gender, teachers often will actually evaluate a girl's math at a lower score than a boy's math without realizing that they're doing it. 

Maya: Exactly. So if we give all the kids the same test, then we take away the gatekeepers. And that's something that we can do. 

Rachel: But implementing math and researching, doing that research is so critical. And I'm sure there are people listening to this who are in districts where they didn't even know this was a thing. And for you to go out and do that and bring that to your district, I'm sure it's undervalued, but that is huge, Maya. That is absolutely huge. 

Jasmine: And it makes sense, right? Like it saying it this way, like, “Okay. We have this program, we wanna know who should be in it. So let's test everyone and use the same set of standards to figure out who should be in this program.” When you say it that way, that makes a lot of sense, but it took someone actually saying that out loud for everyone to be like, “ohhhh.” 

Maya: Exactly. 

Jasmine: Can I just also say, really quickly, there are people on the opposite side of these issues that are doing just that, and they're doing it with a bullhorn and a, you know, toolkit. That's what I'll call it. A toolkit.

Amanda: Basically delivered to them, wrapped up talking points. 

Jasmine: From very well funded millionaires and billionaires. They are doing this, and because of that we are getting a lot of bad policy. So people who are listening today, I hope that you hear Maya’s story and you feel empowered to say “I can actually do this, but for good. I can do this to create a more equitable and just school system for either my children or the children in my neighborhood or you know, just my community as a whole.” You have the power to do this and Maya is a prime example of that. She even went the next step and ran for school board! 

Amanda: You were a mom that saw an issue, right? You don't need a PAC and all the funding. And a mom who has a real issue is a hundred times more powerful than a talking point someone heard on the news.

 Maya: I agree. I agree cause nothing, nothing gets things done like us moms. I mean, we, we do, we, we make the world go round. We do everything, right? 

Rachel: Like you see something and it's just… “okay, I mean, if this is what it is, I'm just gonna roll up my sleeves and do it.” Because no one's coming to rescue us. 

Maya: No one is gonna save us.

Amanda: No, there's no Superman.  

Jasmine: I love it. All right. Well on that note Maya, thank you so much for joining us. It's always a pleasure to have you. 

And now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Ethan and Carrie of School Board Partners.

BREAK

Jasmine: We have two guests joining us on the podcast today. Ethan Ashley and Carrie Douglass are school board members and the founders of School Board Partners, an organization that helps connect, inspire, and support anti-racist school board members across the country. Ethan and Carrie, thank you so much for joining me today on the Suburban Women Problem.

Carrie Douglass: We're so happy to be here. Thank you. 

Ethan Ashley: Thank you. 

Jasmine: I'm so happy to have this conversation. I think we actually know some school board members in common, so I'm really excited to talk. We talk all the time on the podcast about school boards and how important it is to vote in school board elections, also attending school board meetings, and even encouraging our listeners to run for school board. But sometimes it's valuable to just take a step all the way back. So let's start here. What exactly is a school board and what do school boards do? 

Carrie: Thanks, Jasmine. It is such a great question. It is a question that the vast majority of people can't answer, including most new school board members, so we, we love to talk about this question. 

There are approximately 13,000 school boards across our country and about a hundred thousand school board members, and typically they have between five and nine members, and decisions are almost always made by majority. And then the board sets the goals and visions for the district. They should be writing, passing, and monitoring execution of policies, but sometimes not a lot of that is happening. They approve the budget, which is typically hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. And finally, they should be communicating both directions with the community. 

Ethan: Yeah, I think, you know, if you're gonna sum that up, school board members are responsible for educating, you know, our nearly 50 million public school students. And they make decisions about all these critical things, and they do so normally through policy. And so, you know, if you think about discipline policies, curriculum used, or how teachers are placed, how they're paid, and so much more. I mean, board members are responsible for these things and they make policies on these issues, and they're responsible for, you know, educating our young people and improving their outcomes, experiences, and environments.

Jasmine: So let's talk about School Board Partners in particular. So you all were founded to support and connect anti-racist school board members. So how has race played a role in school boards historically and to this day? 

Ethan: Yeah, this is such an important question and we address it briefly in our new report called Empty Seats at Powerful Tables, The State of School Boards in America. You know, everyone knows about Brown versus Board of Education, but we rarely acknowledge that it was individual school boards, thousands of elected leaders that decided how to codify policies and practices across the country that really, I think, enshrined some of the inequality that exists today.

Most people hear the Brown and they remember, you know, they know that's somebody. But the Board of Education… it's a school board. And those are elected school board members. So following Brown V Board, school boards enacted policies to continue de facto segregation rather than embracing integration and racial equity as intended by the law. They built on redlined communities to create segregated school district boundaries. They developed school finance systems that provided greater resources to the wealthiest and typically the whitest part of our communities. And they approved teacher contracts that placed most experienced teachers disproportionately to wealthier and whiter schools.

Carrie: Yeah, I mean, the fact of the matter is that American public schools are grossly inequitable on literally every dimension. You know, students of color today still disproportionately attend under-resourced schools. They're more likely to be staffed by less experienced teachers. They're provided with less access to advanced courses. As a result of all of that, students of color are on average several grade levels behind their peers. That leads them to graduate from high school and complete post-secondary degrees at lower rates than those peers. And really, in short, we are not providing students of color the same caliber of education that we offer to white students. And the consequences of that echo truly throughout their lives.

Jasmine: Oh man, you're, you're speaking to me. I actually have worked with a nonprofit where one of our goals is to just increase access to, you know, extracurricular programs. I had the opportunity to both go to public and private school, and I noticed how certain programs were only introduced to certain students. And so a lot of parents and students don't even know the opportunities that they have available to them just because of the way that things are structured and who decides who gets to know what. 

Carrie: That's such a great example, Jasmine. I think it really speaks to the fact that some of these issues are really complicated and multifaceted and we're, you know, trying to address generational poverty and housing and all these other issues. And then some other decisions that we make aren't that difficult, like the assumption that… in the past, for many AP courses and extracurriculars, we just waited for kids to sign up. And we can imagine who signed up. And by just intentionally acknowledging and addressing this with a fairly simple intervention, you know, intentionally asking and supporting different students to access those, is just an example of a fairly inexpensive easy intervention. That's simply a change to the way we've always done things.

Jasmine: Exactly. All right. So what experiences in your life led you to run for school board and then ultimately to found school board partners? And so Ethan, I'm gonna start with you and then Carrie, I'd love to hear your story too.  

Ethan: Well, this is a great question. And I will say that there are probably many reasons that I got into the school board space, but I think the most important one is this. I went to six different elementary schools growing up and my mother was a single parent mother who I love to death. She is the epitome of a Black queen, all the things. My mother was an educator. She was an early childhood educator, found herself divorced, raising three boys on a headstart salary in the eighties. And, you know, that experience was rough. And so, you know, I just realized early on that education played a big part in creating better outcomes and opportunities.

I had the opportunity to actually start college before I started high school. I went on to finish high school at 16. I then got my undergraduate degree and went on to law school and finished there at the age of 22. And you know, I think it was that story, that truth of, you know, traversing through my educational journey and having had opportunities through the system that was provided through, you know, school boards, through policy, that allowed me to do that. And I had friends who didn't have the same opportunities. And so I knew that I wanted to dedicate my life to, you know, doing policy work in, in real respects. And school board was a great place to start. My grandmother was an educator, my mother was one. And I had the opportunity to run for elected office, for school board, and have had the opportunity to serve, you know, for the last seven years in the role. 

You know, we started this thing called School Board Partners largely because before we started it, there wasn't really, there wasn't a place to go when you were trying to figure out how to do the role of school board and do it with a lens on fighting for equality with a focus on race. But our organization exists largely because there is a need to support elected school board members around the country, to provide them with the support that they need to improve student outcomes, experiences, and environments for local families and students that they serve.

Jasmine: I love that. I love how basically, your own experience in the world and your own upbringing kind of led you to this place. And I'm glad that you're here. So Carrie, I'd love to hear your story too. 

Carrie: So, I am a former teacher. I grew up in Bend, Oregon, where I am currently a twice selected school board member and graduated from college and joined the Jesu Volunteer Corps and went to be a volunteer teacher in Boston. And I lived and worked in a housing project on the Columbia Point Peninsula in Boston where there was a very large under-resourced failing elementary school. 

And you know, for our listeners, if you are lucky enough to have your children attend a relatively high performing, well-resourced school in America it might be hard to imagine how that is not the story for many students in America. You know, the school was falling apart, the students were using textbooks that were decades old. And I was teaching at a small urban Montessori school, tuition free, serving the same students but in a much better environment. 

And in particular, I lived next to a family with two boys, and one of them, through the luck of the lottery, got to attend my school. And one of them was relegated to the failing school down the street. And I just watched these two lives of these boys, as their life trajectory changed. It diverged that year. They were in kindergarten and first grade and one of them was getting suspended and, you know, just discouraged from school, and one of them was in an environment where he was able to thrive.

And so here I was, a brand new teacher, hadn't really ever even thought about the system, I was just there to teach my students. But I kind of came face to face with this institutional racism. I didn't understand it as that the time. But I knew that it wasn't right. And so I really spent the next, you know, 15 years of my career as a teacher and school leader and district leader and nonprofit leader really trying to figure out how is it that we allow something like that to occur and persist?

And then really following the election of Trump in 2016, you know, like many people, I was frustrated with politics and decided I should stop complaining and, and do something about it. And so the natural thing was to run for school board. But as I said earlier on the podcast, I had no idea what school board members actually did, and two things happened. One, all these policies started coming across the dias that were the policies that I had been trying to change and advocate for all those years. And I realized, “oh my gosh, I'm finally in the seat where I can just make the change. I don't have to advocate to someone else. I can change it.” And number two, “I have no idea how to do that. I don't know how to write policy. I don't know how to be an effective politician.” 

And so, as Ethan said, you know, we really founded this organization to provide what we were both looking for, which was, you know, an organization to help us be effective at dismantling a system that just isn't working for far too many kids.

Jasmine: I love that. I think a lot of us, when we first get elected, we have this moment where, especially if you got elected after kind of being an advocate or advocating on behalf of a population or a community, you have this moment where you're like, “Oh, now I'm here. And I've gotta switch. I've gotta change the volume knob and go from, you know, advocacy and activism to governing and governance.” And I don't think that people realize how dramatic of a switch that can be because you're so used to asking for something and now everyone is asking you for the thing that you've been asking for. And it's, it can be a bit of like jolt to, to feel like, “Oh, I'm in a position where now I'm the one that's being advocated to for things.”

Carrie: Yeah,absolutely, I mean, there's holes at every aspect of the pipeline. You know, there's not enough organizations recruiting folks to run, there's not enough organizations helping folks be elected, but there's even fewer organizations helping folks after they're elected to actually govern.

Jasmine: Very good point. So my next question is, for those who are listening to the podcast today and they wanna know how they can get involved and support anti-racist policies at their local school board, where is a good place for them to start? Because a lot of our listeners, that's what they wanna know. “All right, now that I know what the problem is, how can I help?”

Carrie: The good news is that it's fairly easy to get started. We would recommend that step one is to find a friend and go to a school board meeting. You don't have to talk, you don't have to do anything. You can even watch it virtually. But just to get a sense for what's happening, what are they talking about? And ask yourself, are they talking about issues that seem important and relevant to me as a parent or community member? That's kind of the first question to ask yourself. 

The second recommendation we would make is to email your school board members or go and talk at public comment. I think people really underestimate the power that that has. And we always say a small handful of people speaking up about an issue, emailing a school board, coming to speak at public comment can really change the trajectory of the conversation. So don't underestimate the power of that. 

Ethan: Yeah. I think if you are deeply interested in learning about where your district is on the metric of being anti-racist, you know, we have an anti-racist school board rubric on our website, and so you can go to our website and be able to click on that. It'll allow you, once you've gone to a board meeting, you've had the opportunity to review and, and basically rank your district, see where you all land on, on the rubric.

And I think just remembering that some of our board members, particularly our board members of color, are first generation elected officials and, and they need support. So you know, you can support them. And the best way to go support folks is don't forget to vote, particularly down ballot. School boards often are forgotten. They're forgotten sometimes. I don't like to feel like we're a forgotten elected official, but sometimes we are forgotten. So definitely vote down ballot.

Jasmine: I love that. I love two things. You said number one, vote down ballot. I will also mention in some states the school board elections aren't in the same election as the general election. So make sure to vote in those off year elections. 

And the second thing I love that you said is just support school board candidates. The big top of the ticket races, the governor and you know, Senate and Congress, they can rake in, like, millions of dollars for their campaign. Meanwhile, these local races, city council, school board, things like that, they're struggling to just get tens of thousands so they can run an effective campaign and reach out to all of the people that they would like to vote for them. So those are two very important things. 

But before we go, we always like to ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. So are y'all ready? 

Carrie: Yeah. 

Ethan: Yeah, let's do it. 

Jasmine: All right. First question. What's your favorite thing about being a parent? 

Ethan: Beyond being able to use excuses to not go to things, which is great, I'm gonna say loving, learning and accomplishing all over again but through the lens and eyes of my beautiful children. 

Carrie: I would say my girls' humor and their naive brilliance. My five-year-old the other day, you know, said, “Mom, if cigarettes and guns are bad for us, why do we make them?” And it just, you know, reminds me of how we can hopefully depend on our young people to save us.

Jasmine: I love that. Very good question she asked, I'm with her on that one. 

All right. Next question. If you could go back to school and take any class, not for credit, but just to take it, what would it be? 

Carrie: Anthropology. 

Jasmine: Ooh, anthropology. I like it. Ethan?

Ethan: Oh, I'm going coding all the way.

Jasmine: Coding! I can do a little bit of coding, but basically I just copy and paste someone else's code and figure out what each thing means, and then I make it do that on another page. That's the extent of the coding that I can do. 

All right. Next question. If they made a movie of your life, who would you cast to play yourself?

Ethan: I am gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put this out into Ether, so if you know him, just go ahead and let him know Ethan is looking for him. I'm gonna say Michael B. Jordan. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and put that out there. Come on Michael. 

Jasmine: I like it. I like it. I wish I knew Michael B. Jordan, to be honest, but no, I don't. Maybe our producers do, but I don't. Carrie? 

Carrie: Love it. I'm gonna say Jennifer Lawrence and specifically channeling her in the Hunger Games because we are in the arena and trying to save the world. 

Jasmine: I love it. I don't even know how I would answer these questions! All right. So that is actually the end of our rapid fire questions. Y'all did a great job. So where can people go to find out more about School Board Partners?

Carrie: Yeah. As Ethan said earlier, our website is www.schoolboardpartners.org. We also would love for you to read our really groundbreaking report, which can be found at emptyseats.com. 

Jasmine: Awesome. Well, this was an absolutely great conversation. I just wanna thank you so much for joining us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Carrie: Thanks for having us.

BREAK

Rachel: Welcome back everyone. You know, Jasmine, thank you for that interview. I think it's really important to note that, you know, when we start something and we're in that honeymoon phase… I think every phase of something is important, but that's when you really understand your power. You also understand the scope of work. You know that you have a chance to make a difference. I mean, just like Maya told us, you just gotta roll up your sleeves and do it.  

Jasmine: It was so real when I was talking to them. Cause I went through the same thing. I went through this thing of like, “Okay, now that I'm elected, what next?” And I think a lot of people really don't understand what the school board does. They just don't. You know, you just know you wanna make a difference and you wanna make a difference in the schools. And so you're like, “I'm gonna run for school board.” And then bam, you're there and you're like, “Now what do I do?”

Rachel: Yeah. 

Jasmine: All right, so I think now's a good time to transition to the Toast to Joy, where we talk about something great that has happened to us in our week. And Rachel, I will start with you. What is your Toast to Joy this week?  

Rachel: My Toast to Joy this week is getting ready for my last military move. When you retire, you get one more move and we've extended it for a couple of years. They let you do that till you make some big decisions about your life. If you had to suddenly retire because the President ruined your career. Oh wait, I don't think that's everyone, but the policy is very inclusive. 
So I've forgotten what it's like to move and I've had some rude reminders, but as I used to say, with every move, I mean, in three days it's gonna be over whether I have everything perfect and prepared or not.

Amanda: I feel stressed out listening to it right now, like just listening to, I'm feeling a little bit stressed.

Rachel: So my dear friend and neighbor who's a military spouse came over and she was like, “Remember, you're in the worst part of it right now.” Cause every military spouse knows, like, you know, the stages. And, you know, the worst part is before the movers come. But we're excited to start something new and, you know, began a new chapter. It's been a long time coming. I mean, we've, we've had different starts, but this feels like the last and probably the biggest new fresh start. And definitely not giving the state away yet. But I will just say there's a lot of opportunity there for me to do good work.  

Jasmine: Haha. Lot work of work to be done. 

Rachel: They, yes, yes, they know where I’m moving. Stay tuned. Dun dun dun. 

So Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy?  

Amanda: So my Toast to Joy is actually to some of the opportunities that we do get to have with Casey being in the State House. And so we actually got a personal tour of Cincinnati's Holocaust and Humanity Center, which is a really, really important museum. It's super meaningful. The way they did it, I just really liked. And so they connected the Holocaust to the question of not “what would I have done,” but “what am I doing right now?”

Jasmine: Oh, I like that. 

Amanda: And that's how it starts. And so the whole museum is about, here's all the characteristics to be a leader. And they're, and there's, you know, 20 characteristics where you might spot like, you know, something in each of us. Especially like if you're a younger kid, to see, like, I have the characteristics of a person who can be, they called them “an upstander.” Of an upstander, of somebody who stands up and does something.

And then they also connect it to other issues. So they connected to Civil Rights and racism and LGBTQ issues. And so it was really, really cool. 

Rachel: Oh, that's an important through line. 

Amanda: Mm-hmm. I highly recommend it. And it's actually in an old train depot in Cincinnati. So it was actually a place where a lot of Holocaust survivors came through that train depot and a lot of immigrants came through that train depot and a lot of Black people coming from the South actually came to that train depot when they were fleeing the South during the Great Migration to come up north. So it's this place where you have all of these things that were so historical that happened in our nation. So to kind of have it in that place was amazing. So I was really appreciative that we got to do that.  

Jasmine: That's Interesting.  

Amanda: Yeah, it was super fun. 

Rachel: That's such a great way of making… I don't think we need to make the Holocaust relevant, I think it's incredibly relevant, but I think we need to tie it to other things, right? When we say never again, we don't just mean the Shoah, we mean everything. We mean that no one is treated and othered like this. And, and it doesn't have to be that 6 million die, othering people leads to really bad things. And we have to prevent it all the time. Wow, I'm gonna have to go to that museum. I love relating those two things. 

Amanda: So the other thing they did that I really liked was they had stories from Holocaust survivors who lived in Cincinnati and they also had accounts of people who liberated camps who lived in Cincinnati and in Ohio. So it's really this local connection to where you can see it's not some story that happened a long time ago to someone I don't know. It's to this man lived down the street from me and actually is still alive. 

And they also did this really cool thing with AI where they recorded a Holocaust survivor. And with AI you can ask her questions that she didn't answer, and the AI will kind of give you the answer that it thinks she would say based on everything she said. So I actually asked this Holocaust survivor through AI, “How do we prevent the next Holocaust?” And it was not something they actually asked her. And what she said was, “Talk to each other.”

And it was really cool to see the reaction of even the people there who, you know, that wasn't a question she was asked, but that was what the AI assumed her answer would be to my question, which is a really neat way. They've tested with children and adults… children and adults feel more free to ask an AI a question than they do a real Holocaust survivor. Which I thought was so interesting. At first that the museum director was like, “Oh, I don't know if we should do this. Like, we have real Holocaust survivors.” But then they did this test and saw, like, we actually asked them more questions and more in depth questions. So it was, it was cool. Highly recommend. 

All right, Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: So, my Toast to Joy is to doing fun things in new places. So I had the opportunity to go to a convening of people in different justice spaces, reproductive rights, environmental rights, voting rights, all convening in one place. And I got to go to Phoenix. 

And that is just a little bit of the toast. That's like half of the toast. The real toast part is that I got to go horseback riding and I went with my daughter and it was so fun. And the interesting thing was we were all on these horses and the horses moved in a herd. So it wasn't like a trail where they're like one long line. They kind of heard together. But my daughter was always in the front the whole time. 

Amanda: She's a leader. The horse knew. 

Jasmine: It was just interesting just to watch her, you know, she's 14 and we are starting to have these conversations about the world and I always wonder, like, “Is my daughter gonna be a leader?” And I think there's space for all different types of people, but she just, like, goes into the world so fearless. And I just really enjoyed watching that, you know, from afar and getting to see that moment. And I mean, after we were done, I was like, “Were you scared?” And she was like, “No, that was amazing. I wanna do it again.” 

So, yeah, I guess my toast is to maybe raising the next generation of leaders and maybe my little girl might be one of them.

Rachel: Here here.

Amanda: That would not shock us, if she was. We'd be like, that makes sense. 

Jasmine: All right. Well, thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone you know, and we'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.