Parenting Is Political (with Julie Kohler and Kate Duffy)

On today's episode, we're celebrating Women's History Month! Of course we celebrate women every single week on the pod, but this week, we wanted to take a closer look at the political power of moms. We’re joined by North Carolina organizer Tonya Martin, who’s filling in for Jasmine this week while she’s hard at work in the Georgia legislature.

We’re joined by Kate Duffy, a mom in Wisconsin who started a group to support Mandela Barnes called Moms For Mandela. And after the election, Kate turned her group into a community called Motherhood For Good. Kate shares her super relatable journey into politics and what’s so special about moms. And after that, Amanda sits down with Julie Kohler of the podcast White Picket Fence. Amanda and Julie chat about “parents’ rights,” how moms have been involved in politics throughout history, and how misogyny hurts everyone.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Tonya raise a glass to brave daughters, amazing teams, and last-minute get-togethers in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

We celebrate women every day on this podcast, but today’s episode is coming out on International Women’s Day, so we want to encourage everyone to listen to the stories of all the amazing women in this country. And one great way to do that is to follow Red Wine and Blue on social media, where we share women’s stories and voices every single day.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 8

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Tonya Martin: Hi, I'm Tonya Martin and I'm filling in for Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda: Tonya, thank you so much for joining us today!

Tonya: And thank you so much for having me! 

Amanda: So Tonya's an organizer with Red Wine and Blue, and she has been a Troublemaker, so we are excited to have her on and hear all about what's going on in North Carolina.

We didn't get a chance to celebrate the start of Women's History month last week because we were in crisis mode again with the abortion pill case in Texas. So this week we're celebrating the power of moms. I got a chance to chat about motherhood and politics with Julie Kohler from the podcast White Picket Fence. And before that we'll be joined by Wisconsin mom Kate Duffy, who started a group called Motherhood for Good. 

But before we get to any of that, Rachel and Tonya, what's going on right now? 

Rachel: We had an interesting… I don't know if that's the right word...

Amanda: Run-in?

Rachel: Yes. So my husband… you know, someone got a hold of something and used it for disingenuous purposes. He was trying, he is trying to do some good work in Ukraine and someone got a slide deck and said he was trying to make $12 million. Look, if Alex made 12 million, then I would be very excited about it and I would not try to hide it. But that is not the case. But that did not stop Marjorie Taylor Green from talking about it at CPAC and talking about it on Twitter. So that was not so much fun. 

But I got a lot of support and tweets and you know, we're, we're just moved. We're unpacking. I've barely been on social media cause I'm just trying to, like, keep my head above water. So I was pretty unaware of it until Alex even told me, like the next day, at least the CPAC little monologue speech that she did.

But it is what it is. It's frustrating because, you know, they're, they're not tethered by the truth.And that's, I think, what makes it so difficult when we are trying to counter it, because what do you say? I mean, “it's not true?” Like I mean, no matter where you set the bar for yourself, they will find a way to try to, you know, impugn you in some way. So it's really hard.

And in the middle of all this, like all families, we're just trying to live, you know? I mean, I remember, Amanda, whenever the protesters came to your house, like still trying to get your Instacart groceries and take care of your children and make dinner and do things, and so you're trying to do all of this and juggle all the things that normal people do in the midst of it.

Amanda: I think that's the point. They're trying to, yeah, turn you not human. They're trying to dehumanize you so that they can put you down. You're this terrible, you know, whatever story they're coming out with, trying to get 12 million or whatever. And that is a huge part of their strategy and has been for a long time.

But speaking of CPAC, I saw some of the shots of their crowd sizes at CPAC. 

Tonya: That was embarrassing. 

Amanda: Yeah, not good. Petty small. Pretty small, ladies.

Tonya: I think it speaks to their real audience though. I think they are a very small minority that is extremely loud.

Rachel: Girl. Shout that from the rooftops. 

Tonya: And because, I mean, I'm gonna tell you, I so miss, prior to 2016, I mean Republicans, Democrats, I mean, we could have conversations. Nothing was crazy. I had Republican friends, Republicans had Democratic friends. We could all talk. Now it is purely., you know, some kind of craziness. Like I feel like Mugatu in Zoolander. Like, “Am I the only one taking… am I taking crazy pills?” Like, seriously! It’s so weird.

Rachel: I think that all the time. Let me tell you what happened to us this weekend. I haven't said it officially, we moved to South Florida, to Broward County, Florida. That's where we have moved. We are extremely happy. We have a lot of…  

Amanda: Lots of work to do down there. 

Rachel: There's a lot of work to do. Yes. So, we're out to dinner, we have a lot of good friends here already, and so we went out to dinner on Saturday night. I talked about this on the Katie Phang show yesterday, that one person recognized my husband immediately. He bought us champagne. Really good champagne. And he was Venezuelan and he said, “You know, I'm Venezuelan and we lost our country because no one stood up.” 

Another woman, she was an older woman, maybe had a little bit to drink, that's okay, I did too. And she came up to him and said, “How is Biden able to be alive because of the lobotomy?” My husband just was like, just kind of looking at her, he didn't even really respond because it was such a weird thing to say. 

Amanda: And she was serious? 

Rachel: I think so, yeah! I mean that's, we were like, we didn't really talk about it much because, again, we were having a great conversation and enjoying our friends. But I was like, I wonder if she really believed that.

But to your point, Tonya, like you're like… do they really think that the president of the United States had a lobotomy? And if it's hyperbole, like why are you going up to someone? And Alex, guess what, he's never met President Biden, nor have I. So how the heck would we know? I mean, I'm pretty sure he hasn't had a lobotomy, but I mean, what a weird thing to say. There's no response to that because it's not a real statement. And like we used to have normal conversations, but there's, there's nothing to discuss in that. 

Amanda: Yeah. It's gone south. It's gone. Well, literally, you have gone south to Florida. 

Rachel: Haha. The weather's good. 

Tonya: Oh, I bet.

Amanda: That's true. That is true. There's trade-offs. 

Rachel: There's a lot of people in Florida that don't vote. That's all I gotta say. They're very discouraged. Gerrymandering is a huge, huge thing here. It is not as red as people think. But the gerrymandering is so bad. 

Amanda: Same here. 

Rachel: Yeah and you guys both know this in North Carolina and Ohio, you know this.

Tonya: North Carolina's horrible. 

Rachel: It makes people, it really is disheartening. But we've got to get over this. I know it's hard and it's, it's not right. But that means it is all the more important, the reason why we have to make our voices known. So that others know we're here. We haven't gone away just because they've diluted our voice. We're gonna yell louder. Like Tonya was talking about, it's this minority that yells loud at CPAC. We can get loud too. Oh, I can get loud. Just ask my family. I mean like every day.  

Tonya: And speaking of Florida and DeSantis and his attacks on public education with his new bills, it is so weird. Like the math textbook, sex education, threatening to get rid of all AP courses. You know, my dad said something to me on the 20th of last month before he did this whole AP thing with African-American courses. He said, “This is his play to African-Americans. Because now they can be like, ‘Well, you know what? I'm tired of arguing. I'm tired of fighting with public schools, public education. I'm gonna take my child out and take them to a charter school where they can study African American history.’” And this is from their playbook. Because I think that this is just about destroying public education in the beginning. It makes so much sense. But I mean, they have really let this wild animal run free.

Amanda: Oh man. So there's a piece about Lauren Underwood, Congressman Lauren Underwood, where it's talking about her experiences and life as a Congresswoman. And it was interesting cause part of it was she went in there wholeheartedly wanting to do bipartisan work, and part of what she came to is… how do you talk to some of these people, right? Some of these people cannot be reasoned with and like, where do we go from here? When you have the stuff DeSantis is doing in Florida, where's there any middle ground? They're just leaving less and less room for any middle ground. 

And I think that's true with, you know, everything we're seeing with abortion when we're going from, “okay, maybe if it's life of the mother” to, “oops, we're gonna take that one away too, and oops, we're gonna, you know, all this stuff we're gonna take away.” And when we're seeing so many restrictions, there is less and less room to have any middle ground, and most people, I think, wanna see stuff get done and you need that middle ground.

Tonya: Mmhmm. Let’s just stop being political for one second and think about why you've been voted into office. For the people. And think about the people, you know, a little bit more. I mean, as a surviving triple negative breast cancer survivor, like there are actually right now oncologists who have to sit and wait by the phone for an attorney to tell them, “Okay, you can do this procedure.” And, and that's actually, you're saying that an attorney is giving a doctor the right to save the life of their patient. I think that they just need to start looking at it from more of a human point of view than a political point of view.

Amanda: Yeah. So I know there's research even that women in politics tend to reach across the aisle, and this is Republican women and Democratic women, they tend to be more bipartisan. So when we're looking for how do we reach across the aisle, I think some of this is women. Not all women, clearly, we have women who don't do this in politics, we were talking about Marjorie Taylor Green earlier, I'm not sure she's one of those. However, women do tend to reach across the aisle and I think a lot of moms just know like, we will use what we need to get done what we need to get done, whether it's in our households, whether it's in politics. And moms can get stuff done.

Tonya: Mmhmm. We always do. We clean up the messes. 

Rachel: It's true though. We, we fix it all. Yeah. For me, my interest in being involved in politics is because I want things to be better for my daughter. I don't want her to continue to fight for basic rights, but also I want her to be able to use that creativity and that excitement to tackle bigger issues. Not just the same things that we've been talking about for a long time. Which means we codify these laws and we make it known that we're not willing to backslide and that we, we demand this so that their time and energy can be spent really solving some of the other issues. Climate issues, income disparity issues, things that are only going to exacerbate so much of what we have now, the populism that we're facing.

Amanda: No, I have thought for my daughter as a young-ish mom, I will say, what I really want for them… I would love my daughters to have access to paid parental leave. I would love my daughters who have access to universal childcare. There is a lot that I don't want my daughters and my son to go through as a parent that we went through as a parent where it just made it harder than it had to be.

And many other countries–most, in fact– have figured out better ways to do this by making sure we have, you know, universal parental leave. And we just don't seem to be able to have those conversations that I feel like a lot of women want to have because we're stuck on having these conversations that women are like, “Look, if you would just listen to us, we could solve this and move on here.” But it seems like they don't even wanna move on. 

But I feel like one of the best sells in politics for women is… so I used to love the show Fixer Upper on HGTV. And our political system is a fixer upper. Like imagine that house. That is our political system. And we need someone with a vision like Joanna Gaines to be like, “Do you know what we could do here? Throw in a little paid parental leave, a little universal childcare, and man, we could start making this thing look good.” 

So our guest today is a mom in Wisconsin who started a group called Moms for Mandela when she started supporting Mandela Barnes in his race against Ron Johnson, which has now turned into an amazing community called Motherhood for Good. Kate Duffy, welcome to the Suburban Women Problem!

Kate Duffy: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. 

Amanda: So tell us about Moms from Mandela and what inspired you to start that group. 

Kate: Yeah, so I started Moms from Mandela this past summer. It was at a time where there was a lot going on politically. There were quite a few mass shootings in a row, Roe had just been overturned, and even though I had never really been politically active before, I felt like I had to do something. So I started following more like political influencer accounts on Instagram, who were posting a lot of action items, especially as it related to common sense gun reform legislation and what we could do and tips and scripts to calling your Senators and Representatives and things like that.

So I started doing that. I started calling my Senators and Representative every single day. And even that was like something I had never done before and made me really nervous at first. But I found once I made a habit of it and did it, it became a lot more comfortable. And at the same time, this Senate race was ramping up. I knew how important it was gonna be for not only for Wisconsin, but for the entire country, obviously, being a US Senate seat with how close the Senate was. And then at the same time, I'm talking to friends of mine who, you know, were equally upset about what was going on with things like mass shootings and the Dobbs decision.

But at the same time, you know, I would start talking about politics a little bit and their eyes would glass over a little bit or just say, “I don't really do politics. I don't really follow politics. I'm not into it.” And like a light bulb went off. I was like, I feel like I need to do something to bring the two together. To make something that helps just even my friends understand why these political issues affect their daily lives and what can be at stake with some of these really important elections. And talk about it in a way that makes sense to them and is easier to digest because what, I mean, what do we all care about so much? Our children and keeping them safe and creating a better future for them. So that was kind of the angle I took with that.

Amanda: That's so important. I feel like politics, when we talk about it at this, like, high level, even like, acronyms and everything, you're like, “I don't know what you're talking about. And now I guess I can't say anything.” But I think moms have a lot to say if we speak in a way that is real and what people are really doing, and what they're really doing for our kids, or really not doing for our kids. That's what really matters in politics. So I think it's so important that you did that. 

Kate: Yeah. I mean, it was really great and I think it's really important that we all, you know, step up and get involved because it's part of parenting… I mean, parenting is political, you know? So you either get involved and kind of help move the needle, or, or you don't.

Tonya: I love the name Motherhood For Good. I love that. And so I wanted to know like what, why did you wanna form a political group for moms? Like what's special about moms? 

Kate: What's not? I feel like, I feel you guys could, you guys probably agree, but I feel like the whole political atmosphere is kind of sleeping on mom a little bit.

Amanda: Oh, for sure.

Kate: The care and love that we have for our children and our communities is pretty unmatched. And not to mention, there's no more effective organizers than moms, right? There's so many moms who do so much. They're working, they're taking care of the kids, they're handling all the extracurriculars, the doctor's appointments. And not to just add one more thing to our plates, but we have these amazing networks we can reach out to too. And this organizing work takes somebody to really just get up, pull up, get it done, make some calls, and reach out to people. And moms are so incredibly effective at that. 

And I wanna be clear, we're so aware that moms already have so much on their plates that we don't want this to be another thing that they have to check off or feel guilty. What we wanna do is make it more accessible and sustainable. So it becomes just a part of their daily life. And because it's so intertwined with our values, it then just becomes something that we enjoy doing and feel empowered about rather than overwhelmed.

Rachel: I love that. I love, love, love that. And you're so right. That's, that's how you make it accessible. That's how you make it for people to do it. 

Kate: Yeah. It's just, just a little bit every day. And if it's just kind of part of your daily habits and things like that, you can really make a big difference. 

Tonya: When you were talking, I was thinking about this, something that somebody had said to me and they were like, you know, there are two kinds of people. Like, “I had to go through it, so you should too.” And then the other type of person is, “I had to go through it so I'll work hard to make sure you never have to.” And I've always felt like that's what moms are. You know, they're gonna do whatever they should do or can do to make sure that you don't have to suffer, you know, for anything.

So I wanted to know, do you ever involve your kids in political events? Do you ever take them with you? Do you fill them in on the kind of work that you're doing and how do they feel about that? 

Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a bit of an interesting situation. So I have stepkids that are 10 and 13, so they're more aware of what's going on and they're actually… So we share custody of them. And when they're not with us, they live with their mom and stepdad in Highland Park. So when the shooting happened last summer, that was the first time we really had to have a real conversation with them about what's going on. 

Amanda: Oh wait, is that the Highland Park in Chicago where the shooting at the July 4th parade? Scary.

Kate: Yeah. So they were not there. They were not there, thank God. But they do have friends that were, and yeah, it's, it's where they live. That was the first time that things really got real for them. So they do know kind of what I'm doing and the things that we do to try to protect them and their friends and kids in general. So they have come to different things with us, different rallies and things like that. 

And then I have brought, I have a little two-year-old as well, and I bring him to all kinds of stuff. He's two, so, you know, it really depends on the thing, but he's come to rallies. I've also brought him canvassing with me. We've done some, when we do some of the open canvassing at farmer's markets and stuff, I've brought him with me. He'll help hand out little stickers and stuff like that. 

Amanda: Awww how can you say no to that? 

Kate: Of course he has no idea what's going on, but he loves waving a sign at a rally.  

Amanda: I love that. I feel like as moms we build a house that is safe for our kids and we build a house that will help our kids grow. And we want to do the same thing for our schools and our community. So our community and our schools are a place for our kids to feel safe and to grow. And I think a lot of moms are afraid to ask when it comes to things outside their house of what they want and need. So if they say like, “Look, I need an inclusive park for my kid.” Right? I feel like a lot of moms are afraid like, “Well, can I ask that? Do I have the right to ask for that?” And one thing I would tell mom is like, “Yeah, you do ask for whatever you want. The worst I can do is say no.” And then you're, you know, in the same place as where you were before. But they might say yes. What advice do you have for busy moms about getting involved in politics? 

Kate: Try to find a medium that you like that you already enjoy and see who you can seek out there. So for instance, if it is Instagram, try to find a couple accounts like Motherhood for Good, Red Wine & Blue. There's lots of different ones. Just go where you already are. And I think the more you start just a little bit at a time getting involved, it'll open your eyes up. 

The other thing I would say that's really important is you don't need to know everything. You do not need to be a policy expert on any, on everything. I think that keeps a lot of people away. 

Amanda: No! You're a policy expert on your kids! Like you are an expert on your kids and what your kids need. So if you find something in your community or in the state that your kids need, you're the expert. Tell them. 

Kate: And politics is one of the best ways you can advocate for your children. So moms already do so much of this, at the doctor, at school. This is another incredible way that you can really advocate for them and they can see what you're doing. I think kids actually know so much more about what's going on than we give them credit for and to have them see you do that and look up to that is just a really incredible way to kind of form that bond with them too.

Rachel: I love that. Thank you for what you're doing in Wisconsin and hopefully you guys can be a model for others because you started out as one thing and now you've pivoted. You haven't let, you know, Mandela's loss deter you. You've found a mission in it, which I think is very, very powerful. Maybe even more powerful than that one Senate seat is helping people find their voices.

Kate: Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. And there's always gonna be another election. The thing about politics is it's always going on right there. 

Amanda: That's true. 

Kate: The stakes are always very high, you know, as they all say. And there's lots going on, so there's always gonna be more to do and we're excited to kind of keep moving forward and keeping involved.

Amanda: Kate, before we let you go, where can people find you on social media?  

Kate: Yeah, so on Instagram we are @MotherhoodForGood. You can also, if you wanna learn more about us, head to our website, motherhoodforgood.com, and yeah, we'll see you there.

Amanda: That's awesome. Thanks for joining, Kate.

Kate: Thank you so much for having me. Love what you guys are doing. 

Amanda: Thank you. Now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Julie Kohler.

BREAK

Amanda: Our guest today is a writer, a gender justice advocate, and the host of the podcast White Picket Fence. Julie Kohler, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Julie Kohler: Thanks so much for having me!

Amanda: So on your podcast White Picket Fence, you examine the role of suburban women in politics. Of course we love this topic. And this season you're examining motherhood specifically, so could you tell us more about how motherhood has been politicized?

Julie: Yeah. Well, there is a long history of what we refer to as maternalistic politics in the United States, and that's kind of women engaging politically or being politically activated under the auspices of their identities as mothers. And what kind of got us into this topic is that we are seeing right now, obviously, a resurgence of a certain type of mother driven activism. And I think this will sound familiar to probably a lot of your listeners, but this real resurgence of a conservative, disproportionately white motherhood activism that really has far-reaching implications for our politics and frankly for our democracy. And I think it's the kind of activism that you are really organizing and uniting your community of listeners in opposition to really combat. And what we wanted to go into in this season is the fact that there's a long history of this type of maternalistic politics. 

Amanda: It's not new. It feels new, because we don't talk about it. 

Julie: Exactly, exactly. So there's a long and varied history of it. But what we also thought was equally as important to note is that it is far from the only kind of maternalistic politics that we have seen both throughout history and today. And so we really wanna explore the ways that not only that conservative, disproportionately white, women have organized, using and evoking their motherhood identities, but the way that progressive women have and continue to do the same in ways that really advance justice. 

And so we also go into the rich history of organizing and maternal politics on the progressive side. From, you know, the progressive era when mothers were a tremendous force in helping establish critical social welfare policies that continue to this day to looking at organizations like Mad Mothers Against Drunk Driving, that really incited a whole new movement and promoted not only major policy change, but cultural change in how we think about drunk driving and really making that a, you know, a toxic force really. We talk about the role of mothers in the gun violence prevention movement, and Black mothers specifically in the role that they've played in highlighting police violence and bringing that to our national attention, to the role that Black mothers are playing in exposing the Black maternal health crisis and maternal mortality crisis in our country.

And so there's a whole host of ways that mothers have been really key political actors, and we wanted to get into kind of all of those in complexities and start to unpack all of that and also to really explore, I think, a more general question on why… here we are in 2023 and the identity of mother really remains very politically potent. And so we wanted to get into the benefits and the risks of grounding women's activism in their motherhood identities. You know, who's included, who gets left out. So I think there's a lot of questions that we can really start to pose when we get into this topic that goes beyond sort of the surface levels of how mothers are activated and engaged politically.

Amanda: I think that is interesting because as a society, I think we are still a little uncomfortable with women in leadership roles and with women advocating for themselves. So it's almost like we have to use this motherhood identity and society and other people can be more comfortable if we are advocating for our children. And if we are in that mother role as a leader, that kind of makes everyone a little more comfortable with us having opinions. 

Julie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's really important that we sort of grapple with that on the progressive side as well. Like there's some real political… there's some political utility to this, right? I mean, we always hear about things like, when you try to get women to run for office, they have to be asked, I think the average is seven times. Or something like that. And that often the way that you encourage, successfully encourage women to seek office is you kind of talk about the benefits that they can have, the good that they can do for others that they care about. Their children, their communities. And so I think there is a real political utility in tapping into those identities, but there are also some risks with that. 

Amanda: There are. I mean I do think it's very clever, right? If you're gonna back me into that role, then I'm gonna use that role to, you know, make the society better for my kids and for other kids.

So I know for me, being a mom definitely inspires me and so many of our listeners to get involved. One thing we've heard over and over since Roe v Wade was overturned is, “I can't believe that my daughter is going to have fewer rights than I do.” But at the same time as moms, we're often reduced to that identity alone. And so how do we kind of find this balance while also still wanting to be very much heard for, you know, the change we want to see? 

Julie: Yeah. I think that framing is so powerful, and I think it really is kind of the framing that we're using for this whole season. And I don't know if there's an answer on what's the right balance. Like I don't think that there's exactly like, you know, “This is how we do it.” 

What I think is important is the intentionality behind it, that we're being very intentional in how we evoke that motherhood identity. And also think about ways that we, what we need to do in order to be inclusive. Because I think there is, you know, the risks of sort of grounding women's political activism only in our mother's motherhood identities is that, you know, it kind of encourages biological essentialism. 

Or it's reductive. Because many of us are moms, but we're also lots of other things. It's an aspect of our identity, not our full identity. And moreover, it also, I think, sort of tells others or sends a message that others don't have that political agency or that right to a public voice on issues that are affecting everyone. You know, gun violence isn't something that we should only care about because we have kids in school and there are, you know, school shootings. It's an issue that affects everyone and we all have the right to a public voice on a lot of these issues of, of national importance.

Amanda: Oh, I love that. One bumper sticker that makes me laugh every time I see it is… you know the baby on board sticker? So I've seen a bumper sticker that says “Adults on board. We wanna live too.” 

Julie: Exactly. 

Amanda: Like it is a serious issue for schools, but also I would also like to live too. And not die in a movie theater or something. I'm laughing and this is really not funny, but that bumper sticker makes me, makes me laugh. 

But I like that you said that there was no one right way, because I think the message that we often hear, especially in politics, is there's a right way to be a politician. There's a mold, there's a right talking point, right? And it can feel like, “Well, I don't see myself in that mold, or I don't see myself coming up with the perfect talking point.” And I love that you said there's no one right way to be a woman and advocate in politics. I think that is exactly right. 

So we've already seen this issue of parents' rights rise to the forefront of the right wing agenda this year. “Parents' rights” I'm putting in quotes here, by the way. We often question… whose rights exactly are they protecting? Because I don't often feel like they're protecting or fighting for my rights. And often when they're fighting for these parent rights, what they're actually doing is take mine away. Like when you ban a book, your kid doesn't have access to it, but my kid doesn't either, and you didn't ask me what I wanted. I'm curious how you view this parents' rights movement and how it fits into the historical context of conservative suburban warriors. 

Julie: Yeah, it's a great question and we actually have an episode where we go into this history and we kind of go back to Southern California in the 19… well, it really even begins in the like early 20th century, but in the 1950s and 60s, it really take picks up steam. And the really eerie thing about looking at that point in history is how almost verbatim the rhetoric is. The way that they talked about, and it was again, a lot of these suburban, disproportionately white, middle class mothers who started their political activism around schools and concerns of, and they used the word “indoctrination” of their children with a particular ideology that they felt was threatening.

Now the ideology was a little different than what they're kind of emphasizing today. Back then, it was tapping into fears of communism. So it was a lot of, you know, “these elites who are infusing schools with communist rhetoric and are gonna be indoctrinating our children.” And then of course, it was also really playing on fears around racial integration. But, you know, it's almost identical today. And so now the target might be, “critical race theory,” which of course we know is never actually even taught in K-12 public schools, but it's the same thing, right? It's using racial fears. And now their language is around grooming children and, you know, and fears about LGBTQ rights and LGBTQ justice in order to, you know, like you said, assert their parental rights at the expense of others.

Amanda: That's exactly right. So I saw a picture of people protesting a school being integrated and they were holding up posters. And I don't remember exactly what the poster said, but I remember the poster saying something along the lines of, you know, “you are forcing our kids to see race and you will actually make them racist.” And I had this light bulb moment when I saw this picture where... that's exactly what they say when we talk about diversity and equity and inclusion and stopping bullying. And they say “You're making kids see race when they don't see it and you're making them racist.” And I was like, “Wow, that's the same almost verbatim that you said 50 years ago.” In my mind I was like, “Oh, we're over that. That was 50 years ago.” And turns out we're not.

Julie: You know, what I find…. I say it's shocking and not surprising at the same time… is that on one level, it is perhaps really disheartening that 80 years later, we're seeing almost a, you know, complete you know, resurgence of the same exact rhetoric. And it's also not surprising because it was effective in many cases. And so they have a tried and true model that in the face of sort of new social change that they're gonna go back to and keep pulling off the shelf and keep trying to use it until we say, it's not gonna work. 

Amanda: So one of the misconceptions that we're constantly trying to correct is that suburban women equals white women. Could you talk about the role of Black and minority suburban women in politics? 

Julie: Yeah, I'm so glad that you are always taking on that distinction because I, you know, the first season of White Picket Fence looked at white women as a political force, but we by no means, you know, tried to equate those. And we really tried to, to separate, you know, how those terms are being intentionally intertwined and co-mingled by forces that are trying to evoke a certain, you know, ideology. 

We don't focus only on Black suburban women, but we do talk a lot this season about the history of Black mothers organizing and their political activism and the role that racism and classism played even in earlier progressive maternal activist movements. So unfortunately that's something that's not limited to the right. Racism was also present in many progressive maternalistic movements during the progressive era. 

And many of the welfare state protections that were established by mother's organizing…. we have a historian who talks about the fact that, you know, if Black women's voices had been more centered at that time, because there were Black mothers organizing alongside that movement, we would've seen a lot better policies be put in place. And frankly, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in today where we still in the United States don't have adequate investment in childcare and paid leave. And many of these policies, the splintering of the feminist movement in 1971 when this country was on the brink of passing comprehensive childcare development, really splintered on racial lines. 

We had an episode last season, season two of the podcast, where we talked about how career feminism, which was largely white feminism, prevailed over the Black feminist movement at the time, and especially the welfare rights movement that was led by Black mothers and could have had a very different outcome. So 50 years ago, we could have had national childcare policy in this country, but we didn't prevail. 

Amanda: Ohh my heart.

Julie: I know! There are repeated instances that had we centered Black women's and Black mothers’ voices more in our political activism, we could've seen different results. 

And I think the other thing that we really delve into is the way that Black mothers have completely reframed and brought to the public attention issues that have been long overlooked. So the use of state sanctioned violence in Black communities, bringing to our national consciousness, the, you know, the horror of police violence and how widespread it is and how decimating and traumatic it is for Black communities and Black families. The Black maternal mortality crisis. 

And one of the things we're also trying to grapple with is that, even though it's fantastic that these issues have broken through and that there's greater cultural awareness and political awareness of them, it's also problematic that so often the political space that has been made available to Black women and Black mothers is really grounded in trauma. And how can we change our political discourse so that we can also leave room, political room, for the joys of Black motherhood? Or the joys of motherhood in communities of color? So that's something that we wanna really be wrestling with as well. 

Amanda: I mean, we have a lot of research that when we have a diversity of people in the room, we get better ideas. And so it's a very like zero sum idea to think if we don't have other voices, then it will be better for me. But the truth is with more diverse voices, you get better ideas and it's better for all of us.

It's interesting, so I am right outside of Akron and an Akron is where Sojourner Truth made her Ain’t I A Woman speech so long ago, where it's like, “My voice isn't being heard in this movement.” And it's important. It's not only important to her as a Black woman, it's important to all women that these voices are heard. 

And especially for, oh man, childcare. That is one of my, I mean, full disclosure, I have young children. I think there's probably like a PTSD that comes with trying to raise small children in Pre-k. For all we talk about families and family values in the United States, we provide less support to mothers than any industrialized nation. Whether we're talking about childcare, paid leave, universal pre-K, early childhood education, pick your metric. We are not there. So why do you think we don't support moms in the ways that other countries do? 

Julie: Okay, well I'm gonna give a slightly longer answer and then I'm gonna give a short answer cause I think it's two things. So the longer answer, the slightly longer answer, is because really since 1980, but you know, it started before then, we've had a dominant economic philosophy in this country that's called neoliberalism. And what we think of it as, you know, kind of popularly, it's kind of the small government, low taxes economic philosophy that has really prevailed and that has served as the basis for our policymaking. And really up until recently, in both Republican and Democratic parties. 

And it became so politically powerful because it was kind of knit together a political coalition of economic libertarians with evangelical conservatives, even, you know, kind of the Christian right, who on the surface don't really have much in common, right? Like,  how did that become a political coalition? But they had some mutually and what they found is that their ideas were really symbiotic. You can erode the welfare state, you can reduce government spending, if you valorize the traditional nuclear family and make them not only sort of the ideal but the economic building block of our society. 

And so what they, this coalition, was really very successful in doing was pushing more and more economic responsibilities onto the privatized nuclear family shoulders. So look at higher education for example. We used to have, you know, public universities in California used to be free for all California residents. We used to have a vast system of Pell grants in this country where there was ample government support. Over the last 40 years that has been systematically eroded and more and more of these costs put on families. Pell Grants basically got reduced to almost nothing, and we have to go into privatized ways of financing these things that are pushed onto family shoulders. So parents have to go into debt. Young people have to go into debt. So we have a whole economic model that has basically made this kind of public investment in families impossible. 

So if we are gonna disrupt this and really kind of start to advocate for the kinds of investments that we know actually help families, and that by the way, build a strong economy that produces more growth..

Amanda: Win win!

Julie: Win win. Then we have to really change our whole economic framework. And the exciting news is that that's starting to come together and that's starting to take hold. But that's really gonna take all of our advocacy, not just for these different policies, but toward a whole different orientation on what a strong economy looks like.

Now here's my short answer. The other answer to this is that it's sexism on the part of our elected officials. And the fact that, for example, the Build Back Better Act, which became the Inflation Reduction Act… 

Amanda: Oh, I already know what you're gonna say and it's already gonna make me mad.

Julie: The lynchpin of that was Joe Manchin. As long as we are dependent on Joe Manchins in order to achieve our goals and not the Katherine Clarks, the Rosa Dolores, Lauren Underwoods, I think the more that we start to see changing representation with leaders who understand how fundamental these policies are for working families, the more that we're gonna see different kinds of political priorities. 

Amanda: So I think that's really interesting that their goals were about the nuclear family, right? And the mother who could potentially stay at home with her child. But what I find really fascinating is when we don't have these policies, when we don't have paid leave, that means mothers can't be at home with their children! Even if you look at the welfare reforms we made decades ago, it was really about the idea of women as workers, not women as mothers. And they actually took away a lot of the choices and the freedoms that we actually do have as mothers by taking away a lot of the resources that we would have. So a lot of women end up having to work when they would actually rather stay at home because they don't have the support that their family needs. And I think they end up chipping away at the thing that they're saying that they're actually supporting in a lot of ways. 

Julie: Well, and I think that's evidence of how racialized these political debates are too.

Amanda: Oh, absolutely. 

Julie: And based on class lines. So it's… which mothers? We have lots of cultural ideals about what, you know, what mothers are deserving and undeserving. And our policies, of course, have treated especially white middle class or upper middle class women very differently than poor women and especially low income women of color.

Amanda: Oh, so my mother-in-law, I've said on the podcast many times, she has this saying “stingy pays twice.” And man do I believe that here. Stingy pays twice. When we don't have all of these policies, when we don't give people a fair wage, especially if they're mothers, we're going to be paying for that. We're not allowing them the time to be with their children and to raise their children and to do those things. We will pay for that later and we're paying for it right now. We just don't look at it this way. 

Alright. We are so appreciative of you joining us today. But before we go, we always ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. Julie, are you ready? 

Julie: I am ready. 

Amanda: All right. If you could snap your fingers and pass one piece of legislation, what would it be?

Julie: I have to say two. Care economy policies from the Build Back Better Act and the Women's Health Protection Act, which would guarantee a right to abortion care across the country. 

Amanda: Oh, love it. I will allow that. So what's a surprising thing you've learned while hosting your podcast? 

Julie: That nothing is new. That all of these things return and return again.  

Amanda:Oh man. I know. I'm hearing like my history teacher's voice, that history repeats and you're like, in high school I was like, “No, it doesn't.” Yeah, it does. 

Alright. Who's one amazing woman that we should all follow on social media right now? 

Julie: I'm gonna say a friend of mine named Missy Modell. And what I love about Missy's Instagram post is that she bridges this conversation around current and events and mental health, through music and comedy, and she proves that it can be so fun. Funny and engaging. And I think like oftentimes we think of this as serious work. It's like, you know, intellectual and yes it is, and it, but it also can be really fun.

And so if you want a great fun follow that hits all these important topics, follow Missy. Oh, 

Amanda: I need that. Because it's also, we can get more people and realize like how fun this is and engaging and interesting all these topics are the more people. You know, come join you in this fight. So if you were running for office, what would be your rally entrance song?

Julie: Okay. So would it be totally inappropriate if I said Salt and Peppa’s “Push It”? 

Amanda: Ooh, no, I love it. All right. That is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work?

Julie: You can find me at @juliekkohler1 on Twitter. JulieKKohlerWrites on Instagram, and I have a website that has a lot of my writing and links to the podcast, juliekkohler.com.

Amanda: Awesome. Well, this was so great. Thanks for celebrating Women's History Month with us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Julie: Thank you so much, and thanks for all that you're doing. I really love the dialogue and the discussions that you're having.

BREAK

Rachel: Welcome back everyone. Amanda, you know, I really appreciate your interview with Julie and that idea that there's nothing new under the sun. The political power that moms have has always existed. And then, you know, I, I also have to say, we talk about it a lot on the podcast, I don't think we talk about it enough as a society, but we really, I think going into 2024 – I wanna clap, but I'm not going to– suburban women does not just mean white women! So when we talk about suburban women, we are not Donald Trump. The suburban women that we are talking about are not June Cleaver in their pearls making cookies for after school. 

Tonya: Absolutely. I'm a woman of color. I love it here. And you know, we are in the suburbs, I mean, every single day we're living it up and, you know, we're having our little cookouts and meetups and enjoying people. And actually we are very engaged in what's happening in the political climate. We're just always looking for ways to do things that don't take away from our already, you know, busy lives. Which I think all women are trying to do that, you know? 

Amanda: Yes. We gotta multitask. Brunch and politics. We're gonna have some brunch and we're gonna talk about what's happening right now in our state. 

I loved talking with Julie about the history because I, for a very long time, did not like the subject of history. It was not my favorite. However, I realize now it's because I didn't see myself in the history I was taught. I just didn't. And I think a lot of women of color probably feel the same way with the history that they were taught in school. That there was so much missing. 

Like part of where I think women don't feel they belong in politics is we are not taught the history of women in politics. We're taught about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. I don't see myself in Thomas Jefferson. I never have. I don't see myself in George Washington. I never have. And so it has been a place where I didn't see myself, but when you really dig into the parts that we didn't talk about, that women have always been involved. We've just been on the sidelines or we've been missing in the history books and suddenly you see, like, I do have a place here and I always have, but the way we tell our history sometimes makes it seem like we don't have a place.

Tonya: My grandmother, she lived in North Hampton County, North Carolina. She was on the campaign trail with John F. Kennedy. And you know, her life was threatened many times, you know, and that's for me, I think when I look back at history and women in history, I think one thing that women of color have had somewhat of an advantage is that our grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents, have always made it super important to share their experiences with us. 

So I've always known growing up how important it is to vote, which is something that's so simple, because I know that there are so many people that were legitimately killed behind wanting to have that right. And so that's why I feel like it's such an important thing for me. And then actually knowing that, you know, my grandmother, my great-grandmother, the work that they did in the community for social justice and equality, I think that's so important. And I think that even though we've come such a long way, I think there has never been a more important time than it is now for us to really get involved. 

Rachel: I completely agree.  

Amanda: Alright, let's transition to our Toast to Joy. So this is where we add a little Toast to Joy for something that has just gone great in our week or something we're, you know, super happy about. Alright, Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: Well, as I previously mentioned, we have moved to Florida…

Amanda: Celebration emoji! Congrats.

Rachel: Thank you. It's a big move. It took us a long time.

Amanda: You're not neighbors with Trump, are you? 

Rachel: We're not, no. But my Toast to Joy is actually to my daughter who is 12 and starting in the middle of the year at a new school. It's hard. And we all know middle school is hard. Being 12 is hard. Starting a new school is hard. And she has had some hard days. She's only had a few days of school yet. She still has maintained her optimistic attitude, which she 1000% gets from her father. She's just such an inspiration to me because of that, because she was the one, when we sold our house very quick, we were like, “Do you wanna move now or do you wanna wait?” And she was like, “No, I wanna go. I wanna do it.” And she knew it was gonna be difficult, to start something new and move somewhere. 

Tonya: I love that. 

Rachel: I do too. I'm not like that. So you know, sometimes our differences are a little hard on some days for me to navigate. But then in many of the ways that she's different than me is stuff that I envy and I wish I could be more like her. So my Toast to Joy is to my Ellie, my Eleanor, to her adventurous spirit and always keeping seeing the good side of things even when it's hard. So that's, that's my Toast to Joy. And Tonya, what is your Toast to Joy this week?  

Tonya: My Toast to Joy this week is going to be my team in North Carolina. In October, November, before midterms, we had a retreat and we decided that we were gonna create a Trouble Maven Army. We were gonna have this safe onboarding, non-judgemental place where women could come in and they could learn about local politics, local government, state government, federal government.

And we did exactly what we said we were gonna do. And so this week we're actually on our week six of our Trouble Maven Academy. So I just wanna give a toast to that because you know, it's so great when you, when you start or you think of something as a group and then you actually bring it into fruition. So cheers to them.

So Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Amanda: Alright, so my Toast to Joy is to last minute things with friends. So I feel like for a long time, I don't know, everyone was so busy and pandemic and everything else, that there was no like, “Oh do you happen to be free?” So like you just assume people are not gonna be free.

Last weekend I wanted to see the movie Emily, about Emily Bronte, highly recommend, love it. And I had this friend where I knew she would be totally into it, and my mom too, and I was like, “Hey, I know it's last minute. Do you guys wanna go see this movie tomorrow?” And they were both free. And I was like, “What? You're both free?” And then Saturday night we did the same thing with a bunch of our friends. Like, let's all go to dinner. And we were like, “Whoa, everyone's free!” I was so, I was super excited about these last minute fun movie and dinner with friends and it was just what I needed.

Tonya: I love it. 

Amanda: Alright. Thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with a mom in your life. We'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.