We’re GLAAD You’re Here (with Sarah Kate Ellis and Mindy and Lily Freeman)

This week we’re celebrating Pride Month! In a time when LGBTQ Americans are facing unprecedented attacks in legislation, on social media, in libraries and schools, and everywhere else, we wanted to take this opportunity to celebrate everything they bring to this country. The hosts are joined by Mindy and Lily Freeman, a trans high school student and her mom, to authentically share both their joy and their pain. Personal stories are such an antidote to misinformation, and we’re so grateful to both Mindy and Lily for sharing their stories. We’re also so impressed by their amazing work with the Gender Cool Project, Project Uncensored, PFLAG, and more.

After that, Rachel sits down for an interview with Sarah Kate Ellis, the President and CEO of GLAAD - one of the largest advocacy organizations for LGBTQ people. Rachel and Sarah Kate chat about the importance of representation, the unwarranted hysteria over trans athletes, “parents rights,” and what it was like for Sarah Kate being pregnant at the exact same time as her wife! You can read about her wedding and learn more about “All Moms,” the children’s book she wrote with her wife Kristen.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to blended families, school graduations, road trips, and the beautiful diversity of America in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Red Wine & Blue has been holding AMA events as a part of our Freedom To Parent 21st Century Kids campaign. AMA stands for Ask Me Anything! And on Thursday, June 8th, we’re holding a special AMA event for the Gen Xers in our community. So get your 5 disc changer ready, pull on your best oversized flannel, and head down to the rec room with Jess McIntosh for a virtual conversation about gender where you can feel free to ask questions without any judgment. You can learn more and sign up here.

We now have some exciting Suburban Women Problem merchandise to share with you as well! There are stickers, t-shirts, and even “Toast to Joy” champagne flutes to rep your love for the pod. You can check it out here: go.redwine.blue/SWPmerch.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

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YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 21

Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein.

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. This is our first episode in June, so today we're celebrating Pride Month. I'll get to share my interview with Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and CEO of GLAAD, the biggest advocacy organization for LGBTQ people in the country.

And before that, we'll be joined by Mindy and Lily Freeman. Lily is a transgender student in Pennsylvania, and Mindy is her proud mom. We even asked our online community SWEEP if they had any questions for Mindy and Lily. So I think this is going to be a really good community conversation. 

But before we get to that, what have you guys been seeing in the news? What's been blowing up our group chat? 

Amanda: Oh man. Jasmine, I think, is the biggest troublemaker of all of us I have heard. 

Rachel: I mean, apparently! I was going, that's what I was gonna say too.

Amanda: So Jasmine, you made a list. What list did you make? 

Jasmine: Oh, so apparently I get to be on Kemp's s-h-i-t list, for the PG-13 out there. And so in Georgia, a couple of years ago, Republicans brought forth a bill that would allow for the governor to create these things called leadership committees, in other words, PACs, that they could run all year round and they could fundraise on all year round, which was before against the law. There were certain times where fundraising couldn't take place and for good reason. 

Well anyway now that he's built up his coffers, he's decided that he's gonna spend a significant chunk of that money from his pack to target my race and the race of others in the house. So there's five people on his list and I made it. So I consider this the top five most effective Georgia legislators.

Rachel: I mean, not to overuse the word troublemaker, but I think that's what you are, like a legit troublemaker for Governor Brian Kemp. 

Jasmine: I mean, the truth is, in Georgia, I've been a thorn in his side. I think that Kemp has a lot of people try to make it seem like Kemp isn't so bad because he's not Trump. 

Amanda: It's a low bar. 

Jasmine: But if you live here in Georgia, you do know that Kemp has actually signed some pretty radical and pretty extreme legislation. I mean, he signed voter suppressive laws. He signed bills that have taken away reproductive rights here in the state of Georgia. He's done things that kind of put him on the same level as Trump. The difference is he's just not as bombastic and publicly. Like, “oh, I did this.” He's a little bit more insidious in his movements. And so, yeah. I, you know, to be on his bad side is kind of like being on the right side. But that does mean I am being targeted. So, yeah. That was how I, like, I literally woke up one morning and I had like all these calls and texts, they were like, “Oh my gosh. Did you hear?”

Amanda: It's like the Academy Awards, like when you get the calls late at night, like “Oh, I'm in the top five list! I'm in the top five biggest troublemaker in Georgia!”

Rachel: I do have one like, so one question, if he can use this money, can you fundraise early?

Jasmine: So technically I myself could not. However, the Democratic caucus and the Republican caucus can. But what I will say is this. I can only raise money when I'm out of session, so I can't raise money while I'm in session. However, and this came up when Stacey Abramss was running, basically Brian Kemp was made these leadership committees so that he was able to raise money while Stacey Abrams wasn't. It was like this whole thing that, you know, it was really controversial actually. 

Amanda: Oh, yeah. They changed the rules. That's like their go-to playbook. 

Jasmine: Yes, yes. 

Amanda: So we have Frank LaRose did the same thing in Ohio where we're trying to get reproductive rights on the ballot, and they're like, “Oh wait. Hmm. I think this could pass with majority.” No, they know it could pass with majority. “So let's change it to where you have to get 60%,” right? And at first, Frank LaRose was like, “Oh no, that's not what it's about. This is about making sure special interests don't come into Ohio.” As special interests came into Ohio to help fund his campaign. Then he just, it just leaked that he did admit it to donors. He's like, “Oh, this is a hundred percent about abortion.” And I was like, oh, so interesting, like there's your gaff where you accidentally say the truth. 

Rachel: And I think, you know, back to what Jasmine said about Brian Kemp… he wants to pretend like he's okay. He's like the good option. And I mean we have to admit there are a lot of Republicans and a lot of like middle the road people, I guess independents, if you will, that really want some options and they're willing to find options where there really aren't any, right? 

So this wasn't really something we were gonna talk about, but we did text about it a little bit in our group chat, and that is the explosive piece in the Atlantic. Very long form journalism–I'm here for it, I love a good meaty Atlantic piece–about CNN and their CEO Chris Licht. One of the things that really struck me, and I screenshotted it and sent it to you guys, cuz I was pretty outraged, but the idea that, it wasn't Chris Licht, it was like his PR executive, who was like, “Well, I think what Chris is trying to say here is yes, normally the things that Trump said would be an 11, but we have to recalibrate because if that's an 11 then everything is going to be an 11. And then what happens when he does something that really undermines democracy, like what do we do?” Then I'm like, how about we make it a 20? Right? 

Because as someone who, as a woman, all that stuff was definitely an 11 to me. As someone whose family was attacked and when democracy was under fire, I also think that was important. All those things needed to be covered, right? And I understand the tricky point of view for the media who's trying to talk about everything in sort of an unbiased way, but again, as we often, often say, there's really no good side to liars. And there's really no good side to voter suppression or the criminalizing being poor, all that stuff. There is no good light on it, so sometimes you're just gonna talk about it and it's not gonna flatter anyone. Certainly not Governor Brian Kemp. 

Amanda: But I think what it also did is it didn't separate the difference between what you say and what you do, right? So it highlighted so much these bombastic things that Trump said. And then when he actually does try to destroy our entire democracy, we're like, “well, that's bad too.” But as you said, that's a 20, not an 11, and we need to talk about that like a 20. So when Governor Kemp does bad stuff, that's bad too. Probably worse than saying bad stuff when you're actually acting on it. Right? 

And the media seems to have a very hard time distinguishing between bad actors and people who are just going around saying a bunch of terrible stuff. And what that does is it highlights the most bombastic voices. And then you get bad decisions of where companies make decisions on the loudest voices. You get school districts who make decisions on the loudest voices. Like in Florida, in Hernando County, where they are making decisions and letting the loudest voices be the ones that dictate the day. And then where does that leave you, if they're reporting 50 teachers are planning to resign? Students and parents who are in the majority are now defending their teachers. They're gonna have a school district suddenly with 50 teachers not there. 

And this is all because some parents on the right had a very loud voice about teachers, you know, “indoctrinating students” to be gay. And one math teacher basically said, “No one is teaching your kids to be gay. Sometimes they just are gay. I have math to teach. I literally don't have time to teach your kids to be gay.” Which I was like, yes, exactly. I don't have time to indoctrinate any students.  

Jasmine: It's not in the curriculum. It's just not in the curriculum. 

Rachel: No. Like I love, there was one teacher who was like, “I can't even get them to turn in their work or sit in their seats. Why do you think I have this much control?”

Amanda: “I can't get them to read a chapter. I just want them to read a chapter!” 

Rachel: I felt that like so deep in me as like a former teacher, but also as a parent. Like I don't have that control either. Why do I think this other person has that control? 

Jasmine: Yeah. Being gay is not in the curriculum. Reading a book that has gay characters doesn’t make you gay. Reading a book about the president doesn’t make you the president.

Amanda: I don't know. One time I watched The Lion King and I think I turned into a lion the next day.

Jasmine: Yeah. I probably turned into like Pumba or Timone, I'm not sure, but you know. But one of the things that I think that we're seeing though, like you mentioned Florida. That is a very red county as far as how they vote. So I think that sometimes the loudest voices in the room think they're speaking for everyone, but the pushback is actually coming from people that technically–I would say not all of them, but at least some of them– probably are voting for Republicans. But they're saying “you guys are going too far.”

And I, I think that's important. I think we talk a lot, we've talked a lot on this pod about just going too far, listening to the wrong voices and having a certain small vocal minority strip the freedoms away from everyone else. This is a running theme, and so that is the reason why people like Kemp wanna get rid of voices like mine. Because I am speaking for the people who might not, you know, come with bullhorns and fancy t-shirts and talking points to the school board meeting about why we should get rid of Amanda Gorman's poem from schools.

Rachel: Oh my gosh you guys. 

Jasmine: Like, I'm speaking for them and they are telling me we like what you do. That is why we send you back to the Capitol. 

Amanda: So I think it's really interesting to see in a lot of states where you have Republicans in power who are so afraid of the majority and what the majority will do. And right now in Ohio, I know they are very afraid of what the majority will do, not only with abortion rights, but also with minimum wage and marijuana and you name it. They are really afraid of what the majority wants. 

And I think it's interesting that once you give Democrats some power. Then you see they do what the majority of people want. So we saw this in Minnesota, this was huge, that once Minnesota got a majority, they codified abortion rights. They have paid family leave, they have medical leave, they have sick leave, they have transgender rights protections, they have tax credits for parents and kids background checks, red flag laws. So much stuff that is so widely viewed as things we should be doing. That's what Dems do. And we need to find ways to where we can all start talking about those wins and what those wins are. And maybe not as much on the extreme crazy voices. And we have had some wins against the extreme crazy voices. So if you look at, you know, Illinois, New Jersey are the first states to ban book bands.

Rachel: I love this. This is like my favorite. I mean, this is amazing. “Oh, you're gonna ban books? All right, then I'm gonna ban book bans.” 

Amanda: I see your ban and I trump it with another ban! 

Jasmine: Sounds like something out of a Will Ferrell movie, honestly. Like something that would happen in like Stepbrothers or something. I don't know. But it's a good thing. It's a good thing. It's necessary. But it's only necessary because of the current political environment that we're in. It should not be necessary. Honestly, we really should not have to ban people from taking away someone's freedom to read whatever the freak book they wanna read, but here we are. Yeah. And so now that we're here, I'm glad it's being done. 

Rachel: So this is, this is the force that we're working with and we have to react to what's going on. And sometimes I think that actually pushes us to do things that are outside our comfort zone. And we have to learn about things, we have to have conversations that are like, “I don't really know anything about this. And so I feel uncomfortable talking about it.” And that's okay. It's just important that you make yourself open and willing to do those things. And for that reason in so many ways, I am just, I am so excited to talk to our troublemakers today. 

Jasmine: Me too. 

Rachel: There is so much misinformation out there about trans kids. I think there's more misinformation than good information, honestly. And I am really glad to talk to Mindy and Lily so we can hear more about their experience firsthand. I cannot stress how important this is. I really think that personal stories are one of the best antidotes to misinformation. 

Amanda: Amen.

Rachel: Hi Mindy and Lily, thanks for joining us. 

Mindy and Lily Freeman: Of course, of course. 

Mindy: Haha, we said it at the same time! We didn’t even plan that.

Rachel: You guys are so cute. I knew when I saw the picture of you guys, I know this is gonna be amazing. So, Lily, I would love to hear more about your journey. You know, extremists pretend that kids are making these decisions about their gender without really thinking about it, and it's like some epidemic in the water. But this has been something you've been sure about for as long as you can remember. 

Lily: Yeah. I mean, whenever I tell my story to people, that's always like the first thing I say. It's always like, I always knew I was a girl, but I didn't know… I didn't know the words to express it. I didn't really know how to put it into words. It was just this, it's just this thing about being trans. It's like a deep feeling that you can't really explain, and a big misconception is that, oh, okay, like these trans kids, they're just like deciding to switch genders and it’s a choice and stuff. But being trans, it wasn't a choice. It was really a way for me to affirm that identity that I've always felt my entire life. 

So, of course, growing up I gravitated to the more feminine toys. You know, I always played with the Barbies, the Polly Pockets with my sisters, stuff like that, but I didn't really notice anything like off with me until I got into elementary school and day camp and stuff, where of course they started to separate stuff by gender. You know, like boys go to this side of the room, girls go to this side of the room. And it made me feel very uncomfortable with myself. Like, why do I have to be separated? I don't feel like I really belong in this group. 

And I didn't necessarily further that feeling until, of course, the human growth and development topics and the health unit started to come up in elementary school, because that's really when my peers started looking around. They're like, “okay, well Lily has all female friends, she does all these feminine things, but she's presenting as a boy.” And a lot of people when they're young and they're learning about, you know, growing up and puberty and stuff like that, it's kind of weird for a lot of people. Like it doesn't really connect in their brains. And that led to a lot of harassment throughout elementary school. And that's really where I started contemplating, well, I'm not necessarily gay cause that's like what I was being called. Well what am I? And that really made me come to terms with, okay, well what are these feelings? And it wasn't until I met trans people that I realized this is possible for myself and this is who I am. 

Amanda: Wow. It really shows the importance of having representation in books and being able to see that representation in other people. And I love that you talked about how like the, the rest of the world can see it as you suddenly making this choice, because that's how they see it, right from the outside. But from the inside, having the feelings all along, it doesn't seem like you suddenly made a choice because you had all these inside feelings the whole time. 

So I'm wondering, Mindy, what was your journey like as a mom to, you know, see everything that Lily went through?

Mindy: So, the things that Lily was telling you about from a young age, my spouse and I saw those things. Like having female friends and playing with what you would call the gender stereotypical toys and things like that. But to be honest with you, we really didn't understand the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. So in our head, even as early as three years old, my husband and I, one night, we actually were laying in bed and we said to ourselves, “We think that she's gonna tell us one day that she's gay. And we were like, cool, that's cool. That's cool with us. One day she's gonna tell us this.” Because we, like I said, we didn't have that understanding at that point.

So I mean, we allowed… Lily is the youngest of three children, we have three older daughters, so I mean two older daughters, sorry, she's our third. And so, you know, we allowed all of our children to explore whatever their likes were. So if Lily, you know, liked more artistic things, like drama or arts and crafts, that was fine. But it wasn't like she said until around fourth grade where she felt comfortable enough to come to first her sisters and then to us to be able to share with us about how she was feeling. 

And to be honest with you, we did not have all the answers and it wasn't as clear to us. But we hugged her, we told her we loved her, we kissed her, and that's where our learning journey began. And like you were saying, it began with a lot of books, a lot of reading, consulting, healthcare professionals, and listening. And listening to Lily, listening to our child. And believing our child.

Jasmine: I think as a parent, like, will we ever know all the answers? Will we ever have all, I mean, I just think that that's like there is no manual. And even as we build the plane as we fly it, all these different things keep changing. All the different parts to the plane keep changing. I think that fundamentally, we can always start with love and the love of our children and, and, and protection and wanting to protect our children and just wanting to see our children grow and thrive.

We're all moms on here and we all can probably tell like a million stories about our kids. And so one of the things that you've said is that being trans is probably one of the least interesting things about Lily. So if you could let the world know, like what do you want them to know about Lily besides, you know, her gender identity? Like what is, who is Lily?

Lily: All right, let’s hear it. 

Mindy: That's a great question. You know, I say that cause we do not… as much as the world talks right now about trans youth and trans people, that is not discussed on a daily basis in our home. I mean, Lily, just like a typical teen, 16 and a half, gets up groggy for school and she's an honor student. She's in a national honor society. She's in art honor society. She loves everything creative. She, in fact, you know, she just taught herself recently how to crochet, she made me an amazing bag. And she loves anything creative. You know, I just, my middle daughter just went to visit her at school today and noticed that she had three pieces displayed in the atrium. So, like I said, very, extremely creative. She's very funny and she makes us laugh without even trying. She's very sarcastic and, and she's really an amazingly kind person, and with everything going on in the world, she puts other people before herself. 

Rachel: I love that. I, you know, I love that Mindy what you're telling us, and I, and I think educating our listeners, is this misconception that when we say “gender identity” or “sexual identity,” it doesn't mean your actual entire identity. I think you’re right, people have focused on it so much, and I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that our listeners can say is this is just not a thing. Stop making it a thing. Stop trying to make fetch a thing. 

So every parent wants their child to be safe, and our sweep community asks Mindy, what is something we can do to help Lily feel safe? So I am happy actually for Lily or Mindy, either one of you, to answer that question or both. 

Lily: I mean, for me personally, throughout my journey and stuff, I think the most important thing that I've told people is, Educating others and educating yourself at the same time. So making sure you're listening to everybody's like many different stories because I'm just one story and everybody's story is so different. And I think, I think you can really take something away from everybody's stories. And then also educating others. I mean, if you see somebody spreading different misinformation, correct them.

Mindy: It used to be enough to have visible allyship. I feel like, you know, I mean I work for a corporation and we talk about putting an ally sticker and making sure it's out there, but I really feel like actionable allyship is so important.

Lily: Yeah. We say it’s like the difference between a company putting up a pride flag in their logo and then a company taking action to actively protect employees and stuff like that, you know? And actually show that support. 

Mindy: You know, we talked about all of these things that Lily has for her, you know, plans for her future, you know, applying to college. And these misinformed ideas prevent kids like Lily from being able to successfully do those things. Now, I’m gonna say Lily has the privilege of having a supportive home. And if school isn't safe on a given day, she can come home and tell us. But not every kid has that. So I think it's so important that your listeners, if they see something, say something. Whether it be on a local level, at a school board or on a national level.

Lily: Because really it, it affects all kids. And we see that because for kids who are affected, specifically for marginalized communities, you know, these books are mirrors to see their own stories and their own lives and to feel accepted in schools. But it's also for the students who aren't part of those communities to learn about others, and again, to educate themselves through people's stories.

Amanda: I can only imagine how frustrating it feels for politicians to come and think that they know better, who have, you know, they don't have the experience, they don't have the consultation with doctors. They don't have your child telling you what they're feeling. And yet many people out there, including those politicians, you know, they claim that they're fighting to protect these children, to protect children like Lily, and maybe some of them even believe it. But if they really care about kids, right, it seems to me that they should probably listen to the kids and what those kids are saying. So Lily, I'm wondering, what do you wish people would know or would listen to more? What do you wish would happen in schools? 

Lily: I think to establish that, like, our family is just like any other family. You know, we have discussions at the dinner table, we play games, we do s'mores on our deck and stuff like that. So our family is just like any other family and I think we just wanna be respected in our communities. We don't have to be accepted by others, but if people could see us as humans and to listen to our stories and to at least try to educate themselves from what we say, I think, I think that would be the most beneficial.

Mindy: If I could add, specifically about the schools, I mean, most policies that are made at the school level or even at the national level, are people that have never met a trans person talking to other people that have never met a trans person. So like Lily said, listen to the people. Listen to the stories. The lived experiences.

Jasmine: Yeah. It is an important point and I just wanna say like even since y'all have been on today, you all exude joy. Like you made me smile like the moment y'all got on camera, the moment we started talking to you and you know, I know right now the political environment is really tough. And I know that people on social media can just be brutally and unnecessarily mean, and I'm just really curious, how do you hold on to your joy in the midst of all this negativity? 

Lily: I mean, firstly, we do, I mean, even though we look joyful, most of the time we do feel these emotions. Like we are exhausted and frustrated and sometimes sad about what's going on in our country, but one of the things that really attracted me to activism in the first place and fighting against censorship in schools is thinking about all of the kids like me who are going through school right now and who might not even be out yet and who are struggling. And I want to do my best and do what I can to help those students and make sure that they don't have to go through any of the harassment and bullying that I went through.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Lily. That is just the kindest thing. I mean, activism, even when you come from a pure place like that, it's exhausting. It takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. But that you're willing to do that, it's really, really beautiful. 

Amanda: Yep. Kindness is your superpower, and I know your mom mentioned that earlier. I can see how that drives you. Makes you brave.

Jasmine: And I, I just wanna also point out that I think it's important for people to understand that just because you're always smiling when you're out and when you're doing things and when you're on camera, that doesn't mean that you do not feel when you are being targeted. Because a lot of times, people do think that like, “oh, well if I'm not happy, then maybe something's wrong with me.” And so I think it's important for people to understand, as you said, you are a human being. Yes, you can smile through the pain sometimes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Just like it does for anybody else. And I think that's an important message that people should understand. And I appreciate what you do. I think. Activism is hard because you really are fighting sometimes for people who don't feel like they have enough fight in them. And so I just appreciate all that y'all are doing. 

Mindy and Lily: Thank you. 

Rachel: Yeah, thank you. Well, thank you so much for joining us and I think this is going to be so meaningful and helpful to our listeners, so we really, really appreciate it.

Mindy: Of course! Thanks for having us. 

Lily: You said of course again! Haha! 

Amanda: Haha. Thank you. 

Rachel: You know, one of the things that I think of, you know, when talking to them, I mean they're just so lovely, is so was actually talking to a friend and I feel like I mentioned the same group of friends on this podcast all the time, so I'm not going to say her name, but she was talking about some of her friends' reactions to Target and Chick-fil-A and all this. And we were texting back and forth and one of the things I said is, our children see the way that we react to these events. And they're watching. So maybe it's not, maybe they're not gay, maybe they're not trans, but there's something about them that they perceive as different, that's a really big deal to them, and maybe not such a big deal to us. But they don't really have the ability to categorize and make that distinction. So, they might find something, they might see something and think there's something really wrong with them because they're not just like everyone else. So you know, the way we are in the big things is the way we are in the small things, and there are always these little humans watching us and reacting and taking their cues from us, not only on how to treat others, but how they will be accepted in our families and society as a whole. 

Amanda: I think it's really interesting how much Mindy said that, that she listened to her daughter and that Lily said she just wanted to be listened to. And when we think about how Mindy also said, you know, what a privilege it is to have such a supportive environment and that helps you get through it. And that helps you have the strength to speak out. But when we see the Target and the Chick-fil-A, you know, hubbub, everyone freaking out about their, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion, what that's showing everyone is we're not listening and what you say and who you are isn't valuable.

Jasmine: I think that that's a really important point. I think that when it comes to so many different policies and things, whether it is gender identity, whether it's sexual orientation, whether it's should this book be available or should this book not be available, to, you know, should we care about the fact that climate change is happening? Young people have been saying things for a while. And I think traditionally we have decided as a society that young people don't know what they're talking about. Like, “oh, you just haven't been around long enough. You don't know what you're talking about.” But the truth is they're saying, “Hey, I care about this because this will affect me longer than it will affect you.”

And that's all our kids are asking for. Don't discount them. Don't tell them they don't know what they're talking about. Don't tell them that what they're experiencing didn't happen. Don't tell them what they saw with their own eyes they didn't see. Like, let's not do that to the youth because you know, again, they're our future. And every decision we make now affects them much longer than it affects everybody else. 

Rachel: Yep. Alright, now we're gonna have a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Sarah Kate Ellis.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is a mom, an author, and a media executive. In 2014, she became president and CEO of GLAAD, the largest advocacy organization for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Americans in the country. Sarah Kate Ellis, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Sarah Kate: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. 

Rachel: Well, I would love to start by learning more about glad. Could you tell our listeners about the work that GLAAD does? Absolutely. 

Sarah Kate: So GLAAD is an advocacy organization. We were founded, gosh, almost 40 years ago during the AIDS crisis, and we were holding media accountable on the reporting that was coming out about gay men and AIDS. And at the same time, we opened a chapter in Los Angeles to lobby Hollywood to include us in films and our stories because we realized the media was making up our narrative and our stories weren't being told. 

So, that's still our formula, is representation in culture. It's changed as media has changed, so now we're in social media. Now we're actually, because so much of the media is focused on Washington, we're in the halls of Congress oftentimes. It used to be a one-way street out of New York media or Hollywood is now disseminated into all different platforms, and so we're in all of those places making sure that the LGBTQ community is represented.

Rachel: That is so important, representation is, is just vital. And I like it as a mom myself, like being an entry point of answering questions. It’s always easier than bringing up like a cold topic that, you know, your child may not be ready to ask about. But when they see things and they can ask about it, it's just a much more organic conversation and you can really just have a chance to have a meaningful conversation. Because it's on their level when they're bringing up something that they have seen or questions that they have. So that's where I think representation is so vital. 

So speaking of children, you and your wife, Kristen, have two beautiful children. Has becoming a mom changed the way you approach advocacy? 

Sarah Kate: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's, I think the whole reason why I got in this work. So I spent two decades in corporate America at media companies, at Conde Nast and Time Inc., working on magazines like In Style and Vogue and Real Simple. And when magazines were starting to change and morph because of the internet, I was starting to look for something new to do, and at that moment in time, my kids were four years old. So now they're 14. And I realized that I wanted to work in some place that made the world a much better place for my family. And that's how I ended up at GLAAD, honestly. 

Rachel:  Oh,that's perfect. When, when you hear attacks on the LGBTQ community couched as parents' rights, what goes through your head as someone who's both a member of the community and also a parent?

Sarah Kate: I think often it's for some parents. Not all parents' rights.

Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yes, we agree.  

Sarah Kate: If you are a parent in America today, you are scared for your children. There's social media, we just, these poor kids just went through Covid, and they went through the most divisive political moment or election that we've, that I've ever seen in my lifetime, right? So my kids were entering middle school at that moment in time, and just when they were supposed to be emerging as these little social beings, they were masked and put in pods. And then there was this political environment where these kids would come into school spouting whatever their parents felt at home. And on top of it, then you can layer in social media and us as parents not being prepared for it, not knowing how to handle it. And the companies, the big monster companies not handling it at all. 

So I feel that this is misdirected and that instead, why don't we hold the media, the social media companies culpable? Why are we picking on other parents? Why are we picking on kids? I don't understand that. So I think that there is this small group of extremists who have glommed onto this moment and are trying to cause more division and more anxiety. And the real, the real villains are getting away. And we're sitting here having these conversations about, like, parents taking care of their kids, you know, banning LGBTQ books. I mean, it's all, it's fear. And it's misalignment. 

Rachel: Yeah, no, you're, you're exactly right. I mean, I, I completely agree. Everyone is very scared, but instead of being scared at the real enemy, we are very much distracted and our, we're all paying a price, but our children are paying a bigger price for it.

You, you've been very open about your own personal journey. You co-authored a book with your wife called Times Two: Two Women in Love and the Happy Family They Made, and your wedding was written about in a Huffington Post in a profile called Here Come The Brides. I looked it up today, your pictures are stunning. Now that I know you worked for Vogue and magazines it did all make sense, but I mean it does help that you’re very photogenic people. But it was a beautiful wedding. Why have you wanted to be so open about your family and what has the response been like to that? 

Sarah Kate: So the reason why is because I know how powerful media is. And how it can change hearts and minds. I'm not, you know, I, my wife is in a rock band, and so she's always been a public figure. I am not. I mean, I am now, but it's not comfortable for me. It wasn't really what I was seeking, what I wanted to be. But I felt that it was so important to utilize the access and the platform that I had to help change hearts and minds. 

My wife and I got pregnant at the exact same time, so we called the kids twins, but they're really, they're three weeks apart. They were due on the same day but one came early and one came late. And when that happened, I was working, I was the head of marketing at Real Simple Magazine and the Editor-In-Chief came to me and said, “can we have a photographer and a writer follow you through your trimesters? Like, what is this like, being pregnant with your best friend and your wife?” Or actually, we weren't married then, we weren't allowed. 

And I had to really think about that. And what I decided was, I knew–because I was the head of marketing at Real Simple–I knew that there were 8 million women who read this magazine a month and most of them lived in the middle of the country. They never met a family like mine. And so if I wasn't introducing what families look like, LGBTQ families were, then who was? And so I thought it was important to take control of the narrative and it's, you know, how I ended up here. Because I understand that power of the media and how it can really move and open hearts and minds.

Rachel: Wow. I'm sure you did make a difference. What has the reception been like to, you know, what was the reception like to sharing that story? 

Sarah Kate: You know, it was interesting. It was before social media, this was in 2009, and I… it was really kind of positive. I mean, there was a little bit of it, a little bit of the letters to the editor, but it definitely was not, it was such a minority of voices. Most people were really, you know, supportive and loving and kind. 

Rachel: And most people had an experience from that that they never wrote in about, but it was a positive experience. And that's the part that you don't quantify, but absolutely happens. 

One issue that consistently comes up in discussions about trans kids is their participation in sports. And you were actually an athlete in your youth. You played field hockey and you were a junior Olympic swimmer. What is your perspective on the hysteria over trans kids playing sports? 

Sarah Kate: Thank you for calling it hysteria. So here's what we're up against. There is a knowledge and information gap. A severe one. 30% of Americans say they know someone who's trans. So 70% of that gap, the information gap, is right now being filled by Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott and the media just repeating what these folks are saying and so people don't know what to think. 

But I can tell you a couple of things. One is that trans kids have always been playing sports. This is not new. They didn't just emerge out of a rock or a boat landed here or a spaceship. They've been here. It was like gay people. We were always here, you just didn't see us. So they've always been playing sports. 

I think what's really important to remember too is that for elite sports there have always been rules and regulations around trans participation. It's at the kid level, and we all know as parent how important sports can be for kids. I mean, I have two kids. I know that like the sense of community it can build, the belonging it gives you, it is so much more than who gets the goal. And so I think when we are narrowing it down to is it gonna be a trans girl or a non-trans girl that's gonna get that one seat on that one team… that happens so infrequently. You can't even, like, name the times it's happened. So I think that participation is really what we're all about. And like if you're going for elite athleticism or a sport that's a different path anyway. Like, let kids play.

Rachel: No, I, I completely agree with you. We recently moved and my daughter has been doing swimming and playing sports. She's 12. It's just a completely different experience. It's a different interaction in making friends, and it's a completely different skill set than what you learn at school. And it reinforced for me what I always knew about the importance of sports and how it's so, so important because it also fosters confidence at a time when they so need wins. Wins that are sometimes not academic, there's not something you can measure. And self-satisfaction and self-pride. And I think when you're, when you're already a little different than society tells you you know that everyone is, it can add so much. And we should stop and think about that. But your point about only 30% know someone who is trans, that 70% is so vulnerable to misinformation and disinformation, and that's what they're counting on.

So, as we've seen recently with Target, corporate allyship can sometimes be a little conditional or unreliable. Do you have any tips for how we can make good consumer choices and support the LGBTQ community? 

Sarah Kate: I think Anheuser-Busch and Target, who have been big supporters of the LGBTQ community for decades now, let bullies win. And let themselves be intimidated by extremists. And I think that's a really bad precedent to set, for our country, for business. So there are hundreds of companies who are celebrating Pride and it is also the companies that you are not seeing in the headlines. Like Nike, North Face, or the LA Dodgers who have been challenged. You know, the small extremist groups are coming after them and they haven't ceded ground. They've stood up to them. 

So I say, you know, it's really important, in this moment in time when we've seen over 500 anti LGBTQ bills proposed in this session since January and we see GLAAD reported over 160 attacks on LGBTQ events in less than a year or threats of violence attacks or threats of violence… it's really important that our corporate partners who have been working with us for years use their power and influence in this moment in time and stand up. And so I, I think I'm really encouraging them to set up a support system so that they understand what that means and what that looks like.

Look, we've become a much more violent society. Way more violent. And that is something that we should all be addressing together. And, and this is a reality for LGBTQ people every day. Violence, the bullying, the harassment, and now we're seeing it amplified to corporates. Luckily, they have more resources than an individual walking down the street. 

Rachel: No, but it's, it's a glimpse into a life that, you know, or situation that a lot of cisgender straight people don't understand. But you can see, I mean, to back down from it gives into bullies, and I think we all know how that ends. It's, it's never a positive thing. And so I, and I'm sure GLAAD gives resources and helps corporations with how to navigate these, you know, tricky waters. Because when you do have social media, it amplifies everything You're able to see it. And once it happens, that gets all the attention and that's the conversation. So yeah, it becomes not about supporting the community. It becomes about the bigger picture and, and the craziness and the chaos that is being wrought. 

And then you have to ask like, well, what's the answer here? And I think a lot of people don't know the answer, but they're well-intentioned and don't know what to do. So they think, okay, we'll just stop this. But then what is, what are you saying with those actions as well? So I think anytime having an advocacy organization who can give people some direction and kind of, you know, have a longer horizon of like, “Look, we've been doing this for a long time, so here's our experience, this is what we would say” is critical. So thank you for the work that you all do. I think it's really important.

Sarah Kate: Thank you. Yes, we created a corporate rapid response for Pride which we have… we’re meeting with I think over 200 corporates tomorrow, to sort of get them up to speed. Because I do think that Target and Anheuser-Busch were caught off guard, right? So I think that they responded really quickly without understanding the situation and the context around it. And so we wanna build out that context and that, and give people a better understanding. 

Rachel: Well, I'm sure it'll be well attended because this is probably at the top of everyone's mind is how do we do the right thing but not do the wrong thing also, in this space.

Well this has been wonderful. But now we have to get to the really tricky part, which is the rapid fire questions. Are you ready? 

Sarah Kate: All right. Let's try it. 

Rachel: Okay. Alright. What surprised you the most about being a parent? 

Sarah Kate: How hard it is. I just thought it was gonna be like… oh, I'm a different parent, I'm so different than my parents. And I'm like, what is this??

Rachel: That's very fair. What's your favorite movie or TV show that features LGBTQ characters? 

Sarah Kate: When I started at GLAAD we started the Kids and Family Programming as part of the GLAAD Media Awards, because for the first time, we had enough of a body of work where our families were being shown in kids and family. So the original for me and my kids was Doc McStuffins. When they had the two mom doctors at one point, I think it was Porsche, the voice overs were Ellen DeGeneres and Porsche. So that was like an original that I loved.

Rachel: I remember. Yeah. We called it Doc McStuckins at our house, but yes. I remember that as well. So the GLAAD Awards were a couple of weeks ago, and you wore a beautiful hot pink jumpsuit. Where do you get your style inspiration? 

Sarah Kate: Well that was, you know what, that was very fortunate. Christian Siriano dressed me for that. So it was really what they chose.

Rachel: Well, again, I also saw a picture of that. You did look fabulous, but your coloring also lends itself to hot pink. Not everyone can wear hot pink. 

Sarah Kate: My mom always said, “pink is your color.” 

Rachel: We had Chasten Buttigieg on the pod a few episodes ago to talk about his new book for young readers, “I Have Something To Tell You.” Do you have any other kids' books that you would recommend by LGBTQ authors? 

Sarah Kate: Well, my wife and I wrote one called All Moms. So that’s one of my faves. There are so many now that are really great. I have to think about it more, but definitely my own. 

Rachel: Okay. Well that, that's good. That's really good. And actually my friend Brad Meltzer has a book in his Ordinary Heroes or Every Day Heroes, I'm sorry, Brad, I dunno. And it's about Billie Jean King. And it is a great book. It's been banned in a lot of places, we were just talking about this the other night and a lot of people have banned it, but he also talks about how many people love it. And that they learned something from it. So it's a great book too, if you're looking for one. So what Pride event are you most looking forward to this year? I don't wanna get you in trouble. 

Sarah Kate: Hmm. You know, I think the White House event is gonna be pretty special. It's gonna be big. I think that the President wants to use the White House as a place for the community to come together and find some joy in some pretty dark times. And so I think it's gonna be a really special event. 

Rachel: That's wonderful. I hope you enjoy it. Well, that's our last question. Where can people go to find out more about GLAAD?

Sarah Kate: Well, thank you for asking that. That would be at GLAAD.org. And that's two As, so it's GLAAD.org.

Rachel: Okay. Well, This has been so wonderful. I think our listeners are gonna learn so much from your answers, and thank you again for joining us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Sarah Kate: Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back everyone. Rachel, I loved your interview with Sarah Kate. I loved when she was talking about how she wasn't thrilled to be in the public eye, but she agreed to have her wedding profiled in HuffPo because she knows the importance of representation. And I totally felt that in a different way where, Rachel I know you know it, Jasmine too, that it's hard to be in the public eye and it's hard to put yourself out there and your family out there. But it's important that people see us all as humans and that we're all represented, you know, across the board. So I thought that it was really an interesting story that she talked about there.

Jasmine: Yeah. There's a lot of emotional labor into putting yourself out there. And I don't think that people recognize that. I actually, I'm glad that Mindy and Lily brought that up, like, you know, yeah, we are joyful, but that doesn't mean that things don't affect us. Because there is a lot of discomfort and even maybe even a little bit of pain with being so out there for people to scrutinize your every move and have something to say about every single thing that you do. So, you know, it's hard, but, you know, I feel like those who are willing to do it and able to do it, they really are doing a service for those who might not quite necessarily be there yet.

Rachel: A hundred percent. It's not easy. I mean, I think all three of us know it's not easy to put yourself out there.

Jasmine: Absolutely.

Rachel: Well, I think these were both pretty great joyful interviews, and this has been kind of a really happy episode, but we are going to end on a Toast to Joy as we always do. So with that, Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Amanda: So my toast to joy is my youngest Brady graduated from pre-K 

Rachel: Cutest pictures ever.

Amanda: I know! So fun. So Brady's adopted and so his biological mom came up and great great grandma came up and I know he loved having just so many people around him that loved him. And then even so my daughter, Amelia, who can never let Brady have anything to himself, was like, “Nope, she's my grandma too.”

Jasmine: Sisters.

Amanda: I know! She's like, “Nope, I need all the attention from whatever adult is.” So yeah. I think it's a lot of fun kind of how our family has evolved and it looks different, but I love it and I love our family and it was a wonderful time to just celebrate Brady and celebrate, you know, our family coming together. And it's okay that it looks different.

Rachel:  Congratulations on passing pre-K. It's all downhill from there, I hear. 

Amanda: I know! They're all gonna be on the bus next year. No more pre-K dropoff.

Jasmine: Yay mom!

Amanda: I'm very excited about that. No more daycare payment. Like, yeah. Oh. All right, Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy?

Jasmine: So my Toast to Joy is similar to yours. So Jayda has officially finished middle school. So my daughter is done with middle school. 

Rachel: Oh my gosh! 

Jasmine: Yeah, that was a road. I will say it was a journey. But we're done. And you know, as a little kind of celebration for, oh, you guys are like big old high schoolers now, I took her and some of her friends on a little road trip. And it was interesting. You know, they're 14, 13 and 14, and they're very curious about the world. And, you know, I love how I can have conversations with my daughter and her friends about things that, you know, like questions they have and things they wanna know. It was eye-opening for me to kind of hear what their concerns are and what they're thinking about going into high school. But I, I'm just glad I got that quality time with them. 

I'm still recovering from the road trip. I am finding that the older I get, the harder it is for me to recover from long trips. But that's okay. It was all worth it. So my Toast to Joy is to moving on to high school and also just creating memories with my daughter and her friends as she gets older and kind of, you know, discovers the world. 

Amanda: Aww, that's so fun. 

Rachel: I love a good road trip, but I agree that they get harder. It gets more difficult to recover from long road trips and driving, I think.

Jasmine: Yeah. All right. So Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Rachel: So we went on a little trip this weekend too. We went to Orlando before my daughter goes to camp, and we went to Universal, which… I like Universal a lot, but they have a lot of virtual reality rides that make me very sick. So I was, I sat out some rides and I did a lot of people watching.

Amanda: That’s what I do too.

Rachel: You know, the thing that is so… so I was just watching the people and I've lived and traveled a lot. I've lived a lot of places. I've traveled a lot of places. And there is no diversity like US diversity. We're just such a diverse country and we have found a way… we're going through a rough patch, and as Heather Cox Richardson said on our hundredth episode, an inflection point does not mean that it's only going to last like a year or two. 

But we’re learning to accept each other. And I think that's really kind of this big push that we have right now is learning to accept all these differences that have always been there, but we just see it more. And some people are really having to come to terms with that, bless their hearts. But we have all been here and we have been living together for a really long time and we've built a really great country. I think we're gonna be okay. It really gives me hope to see all the differences and think, yeah, like I said, we've all been here, we've all been doing this thing for a long time. Even if people don't wanna accept it and we just, we need to get over this hump and I really very much feel like it's a big hump we need to get over. 

Jasmine: We will though. 

Rachel: Yeah, we will. I really, really do think we will, but we have work to do in order for that to happen. But I am filled with hope. 

And speaking of Toast to Joy, you can actually buy Suburban Women Problem champagne flutes that say Toast to Joy. I recently ordered mine. 

Amanda: Mine just came!

Rachel: Oh, oh! I was a little late to it. We also have stickers and I'm Part of the Problem T-shirts. I have both of those. 

Jasmine: I got my t-shirt!

Rachel: Ah, I love it. I'm like, it feels a little weird wearing a t-shirt with like myself on it, but that's okay. If you wanna support the pod, we'd love for you to check out our merch. You find a link in the show notes. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.