Freedom Doesn’t Mean Fear

This week was the 4th of July and like last year, we have a special episode to share with you. This year, our hosts Rachel Vindman, Jasmine Clark, and Amanda Weinstein are tackling the question "what does freedom mean to me?" In a time when words like “liberty” and “parents’ rights” are being thrown around like confetti, it’s worth digging into what freedom and liberty really mean. 

Have a safe and happy Independence Day and we’ll see you next week!

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 26

Rachel: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman.

Amanda: I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Rachel: And this is a special 4th of July bonus episode of the Suburban Women Problem. Last year we did a special episode for Independence Day where we talked about what patriotism means to us. It was one of my favorite episodes, actually. I loved it. So this year we thought we'd do something similar, but instead talk about freedom. So, Amanda, would you like to start us off? What does freedom mean to you? 

Amanda: Oh man. So this is a fun one. So when I think about freedom, I think about all the patriotic stuff, but I especially think about a lot of the stuff that was that I learned or learned more about, I'll say, when I was in the military. So when serving the military, you learn a lot about service and a lot about the constitution. You raise your right hand and you swear to defend that constitution. So you probably should know a lot about what you're swearing to defend, and a lot of what you're swearing to defend is about freedom. 

And so one thing that I really learned, and we also had to memorize a lot of quotes and things and one of the quotes, I won't read it all because it actually is long, but I'll just read the end. It says “It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag.” And that quote really stuck with me because what freedom means is I was willing to fight with my life for someone else's freedom, even the freedom to do something that I didn't like or I didn't agree with. I personally don't like burning flags, but I will fight to the death for your right to do it. 

And that was something that really, really stuck with me, and I think about it in a lot of different contexts. So I think about it even with the Roe decision that even if I wouldn't do the same thing you're doing or make the same decision, I will fight for your right to do that thing because that is a freedom that you should have, and I think that that kind of freedom is something that we all need to fight for and that we need to fight for the freedom to do the things that we want to do as long as we're not hurting, you know, people around us. And that doesn't mean there aren't consequences, there are still consequences and that is something that comes with it, but the freedom to do it means it's legal and they won't put you in jail for doing it. Whether that's burning the flag or whether that is if you need an abortion, that those things are freedoms that we all should have. 

And it is very important to me and it has always been, I think, important to me, but especially in the military that those freedoms are important to us. And we need to fight for it, and we need to fight for it every day to keep it. It wasn't just that they drafted a constitution, you know, a couple hundred years ago and they're done, work is done. We're clearly still fighting for those freedoms today, and that is something that I still take with me, that we need to fight for those freedoms.

Rachel: That's the beautiful thing I think about the United States, is there's so much diversity. And there's not just diversity in the way we look, where we come from, what our backgrounds are, but also, and how we view things, how we choose to express our freedom. But the thing is, is that we think that everyone should be able to have those rights. And let me just say, I know this holiday isn't about that, but thank you very much for your service and for sharing what you learned from your service. 

Amanda: Well, so I also think with the 4th of July and freedom is like you think about the flag, but it's what the flag stands for, right? It's not the cloth, it's not the stars, it's not the stripes, it's what it stands for. And to me, that's really what you know this holiday is all about. 

All right, Jasmine, I think you're up next. What does freedom mean to you? 

Jasmine: So this is always an interesting question for me, especially in the context of the 4th of July. And the reason why is while we were fighting for our freedom from the British Empire or whatever, my ancestors were not free on 4th of July. The ones that were here, many of them were enslaved. And so I think when I think of the 4th of July, I think of the journey of the soul of America. And I really think about how imperfect our country is and how we have to work constantly towards a more perfect union. 

And then it makes me kind of sad that some of the freedoms that we were starting to see are starting to be stripped away. And I, I, I know that might seem hyperbolic, that might seem like it's a bit of an exaggeration, but the truth is, you know when I was deciding whether or not to have children, I had choices that now my own child in this current political climate does not have. When I think about the, you know, the fact that we are taking away the ability for teachers to even talk about diversity, to talk about race in a way that is just historically accurate. That to me is not freedom, that is taking freedom away. And let's be clear, we have never really truly taught history as honestly as we could have, but now it's like we're getting more dishonest instead of more honest. I think we were headed toward more honesty and then that's when people got a little afraid. And certain people decided we need to take that away too. 

When we talk about parenting, I mean, parenting is hard enough when you're just trying to do it as the parent. Everyone knows how annoying it is when you're just trying your best and someone gives you some unsolicited advice about how you need to be a better parent by doing this or that. And people on the internet are great for that. That's what I feel like Moms for Liberty does. They do not stand for liberty. They are anti-freedom because they are against the freedom to just be able to parent, to choose the books that your child has access to, to choose to say, you know, I want my child to have an accurate accounting of history. The truth is, if they were really for liberty, then they would be for “I should have the option to opt out.” Not that “I should have the option to take it away from everyone.” 

If you want to parent your child in a way where you would like them to be ignorant of the facts that have happened throughout our nation's history, honestly, that's your right as a parent. I don't agree with that. And as Amanda said, I'm not gonna agree with everything. But what I don't think is freedom is when one individual or a small group of individuals gets to take something from everyone else because they don't like it. 

And so on this 4th of July, I lament that we are losing freedoms. But I'm also hopeful because I'm watching and I'm listening, and I see our younger generation and even us and, and you know, people like us, people in Red Wine and Blue and beyond that are fighting to get those freedoms back. So this 4th of July, I'm thinking about where we've gone and where we're headed and hoping that we can get back toward a pathway to more freedoms in our country. 

Amanda: Oh, I love that. That's so important because when you think about it, freedom also means having the choice, right? So when you talk about, when you take away a choice of a book for a kid to read or a lot of things that Moms for Liberty advocates for, you're taking away choices. And you only really have freedom when you have choices at your disposal, which we aren't giving people and doing the opposite, telling people that somehow this is making them more free. “You have more liberty by not having the choice of which book your kid can read” when it's so obviously not true.

Rachel:  Yeah, I mean, I think freedom is about choice. It is, I mean, you're free to choose. If there's no choice, then there's really no freedom.

Jasmine: No. Well, Rachel, what about you? 

Rachel: Well, I, I also have a quote, one of my favorite quotes from Nelson Mandela, which is really personal to me. Just kind of where I am right now. It's very relevant. This quote is really relevant to me in this season of my life, as I kind of work through a lot of things that I believed for a long time or, or believed without really thinking about them and thinking about why I might have been taught those things at a young age.

And that is: “For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.” And that is something I, I really wanna focus my efforts on. Am I not just living my free life… because I feel like after a time when it was, you know, hard for our family and we've come out of that. But it's not just that. I can say that's behind me and that's okay. And now my life is good and I've broken free. I've broken free from Alex being in the Army, I've broken free from so many things, from living in the DC area, all that stuff. But that's not enough because I also have to focus my energy, I think, on making sure that others have the freedom. For all the things that you discussed, Jasmine. I mean that my child has freedoms that she grows up and she has the same rights that I did, which is not the case right now. That's why I'm like all of us going to continue to fight for that and to get that back. 

But I've also lived in countries, in Russia in particular, where I had friends who were not willing to discuss different things. And it's not like I discussed a lot of heavy things with my Russian friends, but there were things that even got a little bit close to something political, they would just stop the conversation and they would not have those conversations. And I saw the fear on their faces. They feared that they knew that people, you know, could be listening. Actually in the kindergarten where I worked, there were listening devices. I know for a fact that the management listened to us and they would try to mention these conversations, conversations that people had, with some of the teachers, especially the the Russian teachers. So it’s something that happens from the government and then it was picked up by regular civilian society to use against the workers. So that kind of fear, when that is between you and your ability to provide for your family, is really real.

So freedom means that everyone has freedom, and that's why I do the things I do. It's to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to live, live their life of freedom, both here in the United States. And I hope that we can get our act together, guys, and that if we can get back to gain some ground that we can return to being that… maybe I don't agree a lot with Ronald Reagan these days, but I do think that the United States is “the shining city on the hill.” I think it can be that, but we need to do a little bit of housekeeping and some work at home to get our house in order. And once again, we have been that and anyone who's traveled outside the United States… okay, maybe with the exception of Western Europe, cause they kind of have their stuff together a little bit more than us… but if you talk to people from other countries, they wanna come here. For all our imperfections. We have so much opportunity that just does not exist in any other country in the world. The opportunity to come as a humble immigrant, like my father-in-law, with, I don't know, $600 and three suitcases and live the American dream. That exists here. Anyone can accomplish it. But we have to make it available for everyone. And right now, that's just not the case. 

So we have to do that. And, and I think once we kind of capture that back, and I do think we will, as Elissa Slotkin said, you know, we're, we're going through a rough patch and that's okay, but we're gonna get over it. You know, we're five or six years in and, and we'll, we'll be okay in this last decade. But those of us who are fighting have to keep fighting. And the 4th of July is one of my very, very favorite holidays because it symbolizes to me just so, so much hope and possibility. And that's what the United States was. But as Jasmine mentioned it, it wasn't that way for everyone, and that's something we have to be mindful of. We can't just gloss over it. It's not pleasant to talk about. It's not pleasant to think about. And that's okay. 

Amanda: Lots of things aren't, yeah. Yeah. Freedom doesn't mean comfort. There's a difference.

Rachel: Thank you. 

Jasmine: Freedom doesn't mean comfort, but I also think that freedom doesn't mean fear. And Rachel, you really brought that home. A lot of the things that we're seeing happening in our country are based on fear. They're based on a fear of a certain group of people or fear of losing one's status in society. Or fear of losing one's, you know, their guns or whatever. You know, all of these different things are based on this fear. But that's not freedom. If I am so afraid to teach history because I don't wanna lose my job, that's not freedom. If I am so afraid to go to my doctor and say, “I do think that I would like to make this choice or another choice,” that's not freedom. And so, you know, I understand that fear is a part of life. But I think that true freedom doesn't involve ruling by fear. 

Amanda: That's a good point. I think there's a lot of fear of what people will do or say, or how our kids will grow up, or how our kids will grow up to vote and how our kids will think. And you really see that control that a lot of people want to control our kids, control us, control our bodies. You see that control where, I think especially as a mom, like I want my kids to feel free to be whoever they wanna be when they grow up. And I want that freedom for my kids, right? I want that freedom for every kid. 

So Rachel, I loved how you said, you know, talking about the freedom for other people. My kids, at least as far as I know right now, are not trans. But I want that freedom for other people's kids. That if they need healthcare for their trans child, I want them to have that choice. I want them to have that freedom and I will fight and speak out so that they can have that freedom. Even though that's not something that, at least as far as I know, is one of my concerns right now. But that freedom should be every parent's freedom and every kid's freedom to let them be the person that they want to be. Not, you know, the control we see from the other side. 

Jasmine: Literally the freedom to exist. That should be like bare minimum in the United States. Low bar. Let's get over that.

Amanda: Yes. Let's start with the freedom to exist. And to talk about it. We should be able to say “gay” and say “trans.” Those should be things we can say. 

Rachel: Well maybe like give yourself some freedom to not have to worry about everyone's choices falling on your shoulders. Like, girlfriend.

Jasmine: Oh my gosh. 

Amanda: Good point. And if you need things to do, reach out. I've got some things for you.

Jasmine: It's like when my daughter says she's bored and I'm like, “Oh really? Let me tell you all the things that we can clean today!”

Rachel: Yeah. Like there's so much more to life. It can be so healing. Give yourself that freedom too. You're not gonna be able to control them forever. So the sooner you learn that– and I'm talking to myself, I know I have friends that are probably listening like, “Oh really, Rachel?” But the truth is like, we can't, we can't do it. We want to, and that's okay. I mean, it's probably not, but I mean, if you feel that you're not the only person that feels that way. But just think about, like, they're gonna make decisions and we're just equipping them with what they need to make the best decisions. Because we're giving them love, we're showing them empathy. We're giving them all these tools. Then we have to trust them. 

Amanda: Exactly. And that's scary for a lot of people. 

Rachel: Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. A lot of people don't trust others to have freedom. Cause they, they're afraid of what they're gonna choose when they have freedom. It's like me, when I write to my daughter at camp every day. “Make sure you're eating some vegetables.” See, I mean, you guys, this is a problem I have. I admit it. But we have to know that when someone has freedom, we have to trust that they would make the right decision for them. And that might not be the decision that you would make, and that's okay. But as long as it's not harming others, and we're definitely getting into that territory a lot of the time these days. And I think that that's what we really need to look at when we're examining these aspects of freedom and what we want. And you see the stark reality against that. 

So it's a good thing to think about on this Independence Day, and I hope that everyone has a lovely holiday celebrating however you do. Again, it's one of my very favorite holidays, so have a safe and happy 4th of July. We will see you again next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.