Inclusion Is For Everyone (with Dom Kelly and Megan Higgins)

July is Disability Pride Month, and as we’ve learned in so many other spaces, inclusion isn’t just good for the people who need accommodation. Inclusion is good for everyone.

This week, Malynda Hale is filling in for Amanda Weinstein; she, Rachel, and Jasmine chat about recent news of teachers being fired over inclusive books and songs before they’re joined by amazing mom Megan Higgins. Megan has been advocating for her daughter Isabella and fighting for disability-inclusive playgrounds in their community. She also wrote a book called Super Special Magic Shoes to help kids like Isabella feel good about wearing leg braces.

After that, Rachel sits down with Dom Kelly, the co-founder and CEO of New Disabled South. Dom and Rachel talk about why disability rights are so personal for him, some common misconceptions about disability justice, and how Dom is able to provide paid family leave for all of his employees. We also hear about what it’s like to work with Stacey Abrams!

Finally, Malynda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to teaching, the SAG/WGA strike, and the wisdom of elderly family members in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Over 700,000 Ohioans have signed a petition to put reproductive freedom on the ballot. But extremists are trying to ignore the will of the people and hold a special election in August to change the rules about constitutional amendments. Even if you’re not in Ohio, you can still help protect democracy by signing up here for a Red Wine & Blue virtual phone bank.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 28

Rachel Vindman: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Malynda Hale: And I'm Malynda Hale filling in for Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: Thanks for joining us, Malynda. It's great to have you again.  

Malynda: Thanks for having me. I love being here.

Rachel:  July is Disability Pride Month, which doesn't only seek to raise awareness of the difficulties that people with disabilities face. It's also an opportunity for us to lift up their accomplishments. I'm going to share my interview with Dom Kelly, the founder of an organization called New Disabled South. And before that, we'll be joined by Megan Higgins, a mom in Ohio who's been an amazing advocate for her daughter, Isabella, and other children in the community who have disabilities. But first, what have you guys been seeing in the news this past week?

Malynda: What haven’t we been seeing in the news? 

Jasmine: I know. The news is getting kind of depressing. I'm like getting to the point where I'm like, do I even want to watch the news anymore? Or can I probably just assume… I don't know, not even assume, what's the word? Like, I already know what's going to happen. 

Rachel: It is. Yeah, no, it's difficult. There was an article that we were just talking about before, before we started recording, which is a teacher in Wisconsin, essentially, she was censored… the Dolly Parton song Rainbow Land, she had it in a school program, then they told her not to do it, and she was ultimately fired for this.

Jasmine: We had something similar here in Georgia. So it wasn't a song by Dolly Parton, but it was the book called My Shadow is Purple. And it's a book about inclusion and just accepting people for who they are. And a teacher in Cobb County was fired for reading this book to the class, but in Georgia, we don't have a law that says that you can't read inclusive books, but a parent tried to argue that this book about inclusion was actually a divisive concept, and we do have a divisive concepts law. But the divisive concepts laws, if you read them out, they're basically like, “Oh, you can't say America was racist” and it has literally nothing to do with anything that that book was talking about. But. She lost her job over that. 

And so this is something that we're still dealing with. I hate that we've been having this conversation for a while. And it seems like every day we have another example of why we have to continue this fight so much. But yeah, it's happening all over. People are just overzealous, like, for the stupidest things. Like why would you be against a book about inclusion when you have a classroom full of children from all stripes and all different perspectives and experiences and cultures than you? That should be a book that's celebrated, and I would love the person who challenged this book to explain to me like I'm five how a book about inclusion is divisive. 

Malynda: Well, you know what they're going to say, you know what they're going to say.

Jasmine: It's all about the LGBTQ. Yeah. 

Malynda: It's, I mean, it's the same thing as when they banned Amanda Gorman's poem. Like they didn't even read it. And they also thought Oprah wrote it. 

Rachel: That's my favorite part. 

​​Malynda: I know. And that's why it's like, well, so is it technically banned then because you didn't get the author right? Which moves us into talking about the Wisconsin teacher that was fired for the Dolly Parton song Rainbowland. And I don't know if you've heard the song or read the lyrics, but it's kind of the same thing of encouraging inclusivity. It's such a positive song. 

Rachel: I mean, it's a great song. 

Malynda: It's such a great song. And like only because you think that– and when I say you, I mean the people complaining about the song– you think that rainbows are only synonymous with the LGBTQ community. Rainbows are just about different colors coming together to make one beautiful thing. That's, and that's what the song is about. 

Rachel: Mm hmm. So recently, Virginia's chief diversity officer for the state said DEI is dead. So diversity, equity, and inclusion is dead in the state of Virginia. But of course, I think they have sights on it to be gone in, you know, the entire country. And I think that's interesting as we, you know, are coming into Disability Awareness Month, only because it can affect anyone. In my interview with Dom, one thing he said, it's, it's a club you can join at any time in your life. And I think that that is actually something really important because I could break my ankle today and, you know, I'm going to have trouble getting around. This could affect you and this could affect your friend. Their child could be disabled. And because you like your friends, maybe you'll want to help them? And I don't know, what do you guys think about that? 

Jasmine: I just, I love your optimism. So Kamala Harris, Vice President Kamala Harris, recently announced that they are going to be looking at making planes more accommodating for people with disabilities. So for right now, if you are in a wheelchair, the bathrooms in the airplane aren't very accessible. And so they were like, let's just look at this. Let's just see what we can do about this very specific issue. The number of people that were like, “This is the worst thing that they could have ever thought of. Now they're going to make plane rides inaccessible to everyone just so that handicapped people and overweight people can use the bathroom on the plane.” And I was like, you know, I thought we were making progress. It would make it better for everyone if the bathroom was bigger on the airplane.

Rachel: Thank you very much. Former flight attendant here, can confirm.

Jasmine: Why are we complaining about this? This is awesome, but people just want to complain and basically that's when the vitriol comes out. That's when they will say, “They shouldn't be riding on planes.” And I'm like, why? Why should they not? I think none of this makes sense to me. So I want to believe that, but I do think there's just some really bad people out there that just are, they will find a way to not want to include people no matter what. But I think there are a lot more people that will at least maybe inclusion for those with disabilities might be their gateway into understanding inclusivity. So I'm going to, I'm going to stay hopeful, but I just want y'all to know that those other people do exist.

Rachel: No, it's very fair. Definitely there are, I think, a lot of people who are anti inclusion and anti making things better. I want to talk to someone who didn't take no for an answer and she has really led an effort in her town to help. She's been an incredible advocate for her daughter and for all disabled kids in her community so that they can have access to playgrounds and other places. Hi Megan, thank you for being here! 

Megan Higgins: Hey, thanks for having me. 

Rachel: Well, it's too bad Amanda couldn't join us this week because she's told us so much about the amazing work that you've been doing. And I feel like I already know you, but could you start by telling our listeners more about your daughter, Isabella? 

Megan: Isabella is six years old. She's going into first grade, and she was born with a neuromuscular disorder, and she has difficulties with balance and low muscle tone, hypermobile joints. She was always delayed in her gross and fine motor skills, and she also wears leg braces. So I've been very involved in advocating for her and getting the help that she needs and the support that she needs. 

Malynda: I love that. And I know that one of your biggest projects because of your daughter is wanting to have an inclusive park in your community. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why it's such an important initiative for you to bring in a project for you to do?

Megan: Sure. So when we moved to our community of Hudson, we were so excited for the playgrounds and Isabella was three years old at the time. We moved here specifically because it's such an excellent education program, but also an excellent special education program. And so when we first moved here in summer of 2020, we, once things started to open up again, we started looking at playgrounds to play on and yeah, I was shocked at the lack of quality of our playgrounds. That there was really nothing inclusive about them at all. There's not a single ramp on any piece of equipment. The only thing we have is 1 swing at each, not even at all of our playgrounds, but surrounded by mulch. 

And I realized that there was a need there. Isabella couldn't play on the majority of our equipment because it was just too big and too complicated for her at the time. And so we would always go to another playground that wasn't in our city that was better for her and easier for her to play on. And so last summer, I reached out to our mayor and asked, “hey, how do we, is there any way we can talk about having a playground that's a little more accessible?” And so he gave me the number of the city manager and I called the city manager and left him a message and within an hour he called me back and said, “Hey, I'd really like to talk to you. Would you come in and have a meeting with my team? I'm interested in what you have to say.” And so it kind of took off from there. 

And I will say there was a lot of education that needed to be done. I think a big thing with disability awareness is that you don't always know what needs to be done unless you're in that situation. It's just, you know, kind of learning. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. So the city has been really great about let's make our playgrounds more accessible. And I think they were really surprised at the terrible quality of our inclusion on our playgrounds once I actually showed them. 

Jasmine: So I have found that inclusion is great for everyone, not just those who were previously excluded, but also, like, literally everyone benefits from this. And so I'd love to hear, like, how the community responded to these new parks that are now more inclusive. Were they really excited about this or were people upset because the playground had to go under construction for a little while? Like, I just want to know, like, the community response. 

Megan: So that is where we're still actually working. We don't have all of the support from our city officials. We have some that are, they have other projects they would rather see done. And so we're still kind of educating our city on why we need to have this. There's been a lot of people, especially a lot of parents, that are like, “Yes, we need this. Please. We need an inclusive playground, better playground equipment. All of our playgrounds are old.” 

But I have had some people say to me, “Why are you making a park for, for just kids with disabilities? Like, aren't you just excluding them by making a park only for them?” And I try to explain like, this is a park for everyone. And I've also had a lot of, not a lot, but I've had some people… inclusion can be such a trigger word these days, and I've had some people even bring that up to me. You know, “what kind of inclusion am I talking about?” And I always respond with, “For everyone. Like, it's an inclusion, like, inclusive park for everyone to play on.”

And I think the biggest thing about an inclusive playground is that if you go to a really amazing playground, if you walk into a playground and you're like, “Wow, this is incredible,” I can almost guarantee it's an inclusive playground because that's just what they are. Even my nine year old typical developing niece, I take both of the girls to playgrounds all the time now to check out different things, and my niece is always like, “Are we going to a boring one or a fun one?” And when she says boring one, she means just a typical playground that you'd find anywhere. And the fun ones are always the inclusive playgrounds. 

Malynda: I love that. I'm just, I'm also just shocked that it's such a fight when you are saying nobody's being excluded. We just want to make sure that our kids and our people can have a safe space where everybody's involved. Like we are always including everybody, you know? So I just commend you and I am sorry for the pushback. It just upsets me greatly whenever I hear that, because as we said, inclusivity truly is that. We want everyone to feel safe and like they have a spot where they can just be happy and be themselves, especially when they're kids.

Megan: Yes, yes, absolutely. It had been, I didn't expect to have some of the pushback that I've had. And there've been a couple of times where I've gotten very frustrated. There was one council meeting in particular that was very trying and Amanda was with me at that one too. And my daughter ended up having to go into the hospital a couple days later. She had some issues and was admitted to the hospital. And I remember sitting in the hospital room thinking I'm wasting my time. Like, you know, I have better things to do. I'm sitting here in the hospital with my daughter. Like, she's my number 1 priority. Like, I can't think about these other projects if I'm not going to get the support that we need to move forward on this. And I was, I was really angry and upset at the time. 

And then as time has moved on, I, you know, regrouped and Isabella actually said to me out of the blue one day, “Mommy, when we open the playground, can I help cut the ribbon?” And then I thought, oh, I have to do this. Like, now I, you know, it kind of got the fire in me again. And I've been lucky to have such a great support group within our community and then also around the country. I have reached out to so many different inclusive playgrounds and I belong to a bunch of different groups that advocate for disabilities and everybody is such a close knit group. And we all have, you know, the common sense that creating inclusion for everybody. So I'm really lucky to have so many incredible people that kind of inspire me and keep me going to when it gets tough. 

Jasmine: I can understand that. You are such a powerful mom. I just want to say that you are advocating for your daughter in so many ways. So you're advocating for inclusive parks and you're talking to elected officials and you're educating you and that's a, I'm an educator, so I understand that's a tall task sometimes, especially when a lot of people are starting from zero and they really know nothing. But one way we educate is through books. And so you also wrote a children's book that was inspired by the shoes that your daughter Isabella has to wear. The book is called Super Special Magic Shoes. And so I'd love to hear more about your book, you know, why you decided to write it, how that process went, and also like, what has been the response to the book?

Megan: So when Isabella first needed leg braces, I knew at 18 months, I was told that she would need leg braces when she started walking. And so she started walking at about the end of 19 months. And then at 21 months, she got her first set of leg braces. So I would, at that time, I was looking for a book about leg braces to read to her, even at her young age, you know, children learn best about the world around them through books. And so I was trying to find a book that I could read to her to show her “Oh, this is what you're wearing.” And at that time, I could only find two books and they were okay books, but they weren't what I was looking for. And so I thought, how strange there’s not a book out there about leg braces for kids. 

So fast forward a couple years and then the pandemic hit and we were just in survival mode the first few years that, you know, we were with her and then once the pandemic hit and life slowed down for everybody, I thought I really should write one. I should write this. And she was getting ready to go into preschool and I wanted her to have a book that she could take to school with her so other kids would know why she wears these shoes. 

And so, from the moment it was released, it just took off. And I think it's because there was nothing out there like that at the time. And there was such a great need for a really fun, positive, happy book about how lucky you are to get to wear these shoes. That this isn't a bad thing to have to wear. And so, my favorite thing is when kids come up to me and they always tell me, “Oh, when I get my super special magic shoes, I'm going to get this color and this pattern.” And their parents are like, “Oh, you're not getting those. You're not getting those shoes.” 

Rachel: But that's great that you framed it like that. Yeah. There's a great book about glasses that I love to read to my students that was Arlo Needs Glasses. And by the end of it, All the kids wanted glasses because it made glasses seem so fun. So that's great that you've been able to write a book like that. 

Malynda: I also just want to, again, just commend you as a mom, because what the example that you're showing your daughter in terms of advocating for yourself, but also including people is just going to, she's going to learn to pass that on and include people in her story and her journey as she gets older and also normalizing who she is and not making her feel like she is a child with a disability, but calling it special magic shoes and giving it something like magic that kids can connect to. I just think that that's so beautiful. So congrats mom. That's, I just think it's amazing. 

Megan: Thank you. That was my, I wanted her to want to wear her shoes. She needs to wear them. They help her. She likes wearing them. We've been very lucky to, we've never had a problem with her wearing these shoes, but I do know that there's other parents who really struggle having their child wear these shoes. So another reason I wrote this book was also for parents of children with disabilities who wear leg braces, because sometimes it can be very difficult on a parent to accept that your child isn't the way you thought that they would be and that your life is different than what you expected. And so I've had quite a few parents email me and say, “thank you for writing this book. It made me feel okay that my child was wearing like races and that it's going to be okay. You know, it's not a problem and they're excited about their shoes. I can be excited about them too.” And I've had some parents tell me they cry while they're reading the book, especially when they're going through that process in the beginning, because you really are in survival mode when you first start on this journey. So it's been, it's been really great. I love the book and I'm hoping to turn this into a series.

Rachel: Megan, thank you so much. You have just given us a great overview. And thank you so much for joining us for sharing so much with us about your work and how we can join you and other moms on this journey. 

Megan: Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. I love everything that all of you do. And I think it's so important and so impressive. So thank you. 

Jasmine: Thank you, Megan. 

Rachel: That was really great. And you guys, when we have an episode after we show up for democracy after we, you know, kind of tick all the boxes of other things we want to do, I really want to tackle banning mulch on playgrounds all together. So we can come back to discuss this. Anyone who's ever picked off mulch, particularly from fleece, I think is definitely we can get those moms on our team of banning mulch as a bipartisan issue. Maybe it could actually unite us all together. 

Jasmine: I want to say that I have a friend and he's a relatively new friend, I met him at a political event, and he's in a wheelchair and because he was shot and got a spinal cord injury from being shot. And so, you know, he has really opened my eyes to disabilities in a way that I hadn't really thought about. 

So, for example, like he drives a van that has a ramp and that ramp has to, like, come out of the car. And so he talks about how frustrating it is when people put those scooters, like those city scooters, in the little yellow lines next to the space, or they park their motorcycle in those yellow lines, or they decide that the yellow lines are the unofficial cart return. And he's like, now I can't get out of my car. Like I physically cannot get out of my car. So I think those are just examples of just how far we have to go, whether it's inclusive playgrounds, whether it's, you know, just recognizing that the lines next to the Handicap space are not a suggestion, like, they really do need to be clear.

 Rachel: That'sa really, it's a really good point. I think a lot of people just don't get like, why are handicap spaces so big? Well, you have this handy little computer in your pocket called your cell phone, just Google it and then you might learn something. And because it's okay if you don't know, but try to find out before you just assume that it's like some sort of plot to piss you off on that particular Tuesday morning.

Jasmine: To make me have to walk further. Like what? No.

Rachel: But yeah, I think it's interesting you talk about your friend Jasmine because this is someone who wasn't always in a wheelchair. So they see the world totally different, but it doesn't have to be this complicated. And there's not just things that you just have to accept because you're in a wheelchair, that there are modifications that we could make, and it would make things so much easier for people.

Malynda: There's no harm in helping. But apparently there is.

Rachel: Thank you. Thank you. 

Jasmine: But Megan brought up something that I think is important and I think it even applied to me before I met him, I didn't necessarily think of those things. I was going through my life thinking of all the inconveniences that I have to deal with and I never really sat down and thought about what someone else might have to deal with. And so that education is so important because, you know, I think that if people know… now, if you know, and then you just choose to be a butthole about it, that’s different, but I do think there is an ignorance and I'm not using ignorance in a negative way, I'm using it in the actual definition, lack of knowledge that, you know, these are issues because it's not something you have to deal with. Like if you're used to paying at the pump to pump your gas, you might not actually recognize that the card reader is actually up very high. I put my gas all the time and I never really thought about it until someone in a wheelchair brought it up to me. So just small things, but I do think education is important.  

Rachel: This is why we have these conversations. We educate the people we can educate, and we start a conversation that hopefully people will have with their friends and in their lives, and that we can really try to raise awareness. And the more we have these conversations, the more we are spreading this love and continuing to build the world that we want to live in, because we do have to lead by example. 

So we're going to take a quick break now. And when we come back, we will have my interview with Don Kelly. I'm very excited for you guys to listen.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is one of a set of triplets born with cerebral palsy and has been a disability advocate since he was four years old. He's worked with Fair Fight Action and the Stacey Abrams campaign, and he's the founder of a disability rights organization called New Disabled South. Dom Kelly, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem.

Dom Kelly: Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. 

Rachel: Well, I've been looking forward to this conversation. As I just mentioned, you've been an advocate for disability rights your whole life. Could you tell us a little more about that and why it's so personal for you? 

Dom: Sure. So I always joke that my being in this space started when my mom dropped my brothers and I in front of a room full of high school seniors and said, “good luck!” Which is a little bit of an exaggeration, but basically she told us, “you're going to learn to tell your story before someone else tells it for you.” And so she did put us in front of a room full of high school seniors when I was four. And my triplet brothers and I, you know, however we could at four years old, talked about what it was like to have a disability. And that kind of started my journey since in, in advocacy. 

I think my passion for it comes from, like many other folks who are in the disability community, necessity. You know, when I was young, I had my mom to advocate for me. But as I got older, I had to learn how to advocate for myself. I had to learn how to push back against teachers who didn't want to, you know, give me the accommodations I was entitled to in school. Being an adult in society to push back against people who would, you know, put their ableist ideas on me. And so this, me being in this space, really came from advocating for myself, for my brothers. My triplet brother, fraternal triplet brother, passed away when we were six years old and it was kind of like continuing his legacy as well. 

Rachel: What are some common misconceptions you run into when talking about disability rights? Like what's something you wish more people understood?

Dom: I wish more people would understand that we're at every intersection. Disabled people are… you know, I think especially when we're in like movement spaces and, you know, these democratic political spaces, disabled people are often left out of the equation. And I often have to remind people that there are Black disabled people, that there are queer and trans disabled people, that there are disabled parents, that there are disabled immigrants, that, you know, we really span the spectrum. So that's one thing. 

And then I think more broadly, like, oftentimes, we are, we are pitied. People see disability as a negative thing to the point where they don't even want to use the word disability. They prefer to use a euphemism. And I'd say the majority of people with disabilities prefer that you use the word disability, prefer that you see our whole selves. For so many of us, disability is a part of our identity. And I know for me, it is. It's my culture. It's my identity. It's, it's... It's, you know, a community. And so we're, I'm hoping to help shift the narrative around disability to one that's not so much about pity and one that is more about empowerment and pride and you know, power and building political power on disability as well.

Rachel: I love that. You know, I do, I must confess that for me, it is difficult to use the word disability. I sometimes don't know. I mean, it's sort of a pejorative kind of word, but it's also factual. I mean, I think it has a pejorative connotation, I should say. 

I've talked about it a couple of times on the pod, but my daughter had to do a report on ableism and it was an opportunity for my husband and I to learn a lot as well. And she often will point out to us now when we're being ableist and she's 12 and it's just so much more in her world and the words that she uses and the terms and she understands it. So it can sometimes be difficult just as an adult when you're like, have to tell these people to like, put socks on and brush your teeth to be corrected by them. But the reality is like, she has a lot to offer you know, in certain spaces. And this is one of them because she talks about things and learns about things that I never did. So it's a little bit hard to switch at 49 and I'm so glad that organizations like yours, you know, really are helping people with that. 

Your organization, New Disabled South, works for disability justice and to improve the lives of disabled people. What does that look like? Like, what kinds of things are you, you know, primarily fighting for?

Dom: So we are actually the first and only regional disability organization in the country. And why that's important is that we have an opportunity right now to build power in the disability community, especially. I will say in the midst of this ongoing pandemic where we have seen an estimated somewhere between 10 and 20 million new disabled people as a result of this pandemic. And here in the South we have an even greater opportunity to kind of find solutions to some of the harms that have been done to our community. So at New Disabled South, we're working across 14 states in the South. So we're bringing together individual advocates, organizations, activists to work together on strategy and share information and resources. We're also investing in research because in the disability space, we often do not have the data the investment in gathering that data and research to actually back up the kind of policy change that we need to see. 

And then really, like, the crux of what we're doing is this organizing to see policy change. So, like, really having on the ground organizers bringing communities together around the issues, around issues like, access to Medicaid waivers that would allow disabled people who are on waiting lists to receive care in their homes instead of institutions. So we can still institutionalize people in this country legally. You actually are guaranteed a spot in a nursing home or institution, but not guaranteed to receive the funding to get care in your own home or in your community. So we're working to change issues like that in the South where 75% of people in this country who are waiting for those waivers actually are in the South.

So, issues like that affect our community in this region disproportionately. 50% of people killed by police have a disability. That's another huge disability issue for us. Voter suppression is a disability issue. So those are the kinds of issues that we're organizing around, we're educating our community around, and working hopefully with legislators and pushing our electeds to actually enact change that is meaningful for our community.

Rachel: I love it. I do think that you've touched on some really important issues, particularly the police law enforcement angle is really huge. And I think that, you know, like it or not, I think a lot of people, we need to realize that there are regional issues and the South does a particularly poor job in a lot of ways of dealing with this. And I think it's, it's also a way to marginalize, especially on the voter suppression. So that's so key that you're working on that. 

Something that I really loved learning about your organization is that you emphasize that the work starts from within. We all need to examine our own biases and fears before we can fully show up for the causes we believe in and that's, I must say, a complicated and lifelong process, of course. But do you have any advice for people about how we might approach that? 

Dom: Sure. So, I mean, first of all, your example of your daughter kind of calling you out on ableism like, it just warms my heart so much because, you know, I'm, I'm 32. When I was growing up, this was not a thing. Like, I knew ableism existed because I experienced it myself, but we didn't have the words to put to it. Even, you know, I wasn't 12 all that long ago and it was very different in my experience. 

So I think to your point about the work starting from within, it's… for us, it's putting a price on ableism. It's helping our people in power see that when you. enact policies or perpetuate a narrative that that is harmful, that is ableist, that it, it really hurts real people. And then for not, you know, the electeds, but the everyday people, it's like educating us on why words matter, why it's important for, you know, when we talk about liberating communities, that the disability community is a part of that. Or when we talk about voter suppression, the disability community is a part of that. 

It's helping educate people to understand that like, not only are we the biggest minority group in the country, disability, but like, it's the only one where you can join at any time. Everyone knows someone who's impacted by disability and it can be anyone at any point. And so we're hoping that that introspection, that like, you know, we're gently calling you in around your ableism will help better inform you. And be able to, like, get some more people out in their community talking about this issue. So yeah, it really does start within, and I will say, as a disabled person, I have to confront my own internalized ableism all the time. It is every single day work. So there's no, there's no rush on it. There's no, like, you know, if you're not doing it perfectly, you're wrong. It is, this is a journey and a process. 

Rachel: Well, thank you for sharing that. I think we can all get in this place where it's like, we, we just have to see like the coalition building is so powerful and what you're talking about, because that's where we really have the opportunity to educate people to say, you know, we talk to a lot of moms on this show who advocate for their children and talking about, you know, going and advocating for their children. And that's really important, but it's also critical that all groups can work together and there's a lot, a lot more power in that. So I think that's key.

You've worked with Stacey Abrams, so obviously you're very invested in politics and democracy in addition to disability justice. What are some of the overlaps that might surprise our listeners between disability rights and the fight for democracy? We already touched on voting, but yeah.

Dom: Yeah, I mean, well, really, it is, like, they're, they're completely intertwined. You can't really separate the two. Our ability to actually go and enter a polling place is a disability justice issue, especially if we're talking about here in Georgia, disenfranchisement is a big problem and many of those people might be impacted by disability in some way, whether you can't physically stand in line for hours or you use a wheelchair and you can't get into the building because it's not accessible.

And I think folks think, well, we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, the ADA, so everything should be accessible. But 60% of polling places in this country are not accessible. So that alone is a barrier to our community being a part of our democracy. In the last few years, we've seen like this influx of anti voting legislation predicated on this big lie that there was voter fraud in the 2020 election.

So, you know, whether it's voting rights, whether it's any of the number of issues that people face, which are all democracy issues, there are barriers in the way for disabled people to not only be able to vote, but participate in our democracy in other ways as well. They're intertwined. I don't see them as overlapping. I see them as like, they're, it's one issue.

Rachel: Yeah. I think, you know okay, my grandmother, she's almost 97. She cannot stand in line. I mean, and so that is like an inevitability, should we all be able to live that long. Like that’s something that we're all going to face. I always try to talk to people about, like, maybe you have zero disabilities, but could you stand in line for one hour, two hours? And I think that's an important question to ask people because it's, we all know in this age of disinformation and misinformation and just like so much information, that it's all meant to twist and turn, but you've got to get back to like a really basic, like person to person question. And I like to go with the age analogy and from there you can branch out, but I feel like it's just something like everyone can relate to. 

So one thing you fought for and that you provide to your employees is paid parental leave. I was so excited to read that because we talk about parental leave all the time on the podcast. And you've said that paid parental leave is a disability justice issue, it's a racial justice issue, it's a feminist issue, it's an LBGTQ issue. Could you talk a little bit more about that? 

Dom: Yeah, gosh, so we recently updated our parental leave policy which started out as a 12 week policy at our organization, which felt progressive. It felt like, you know, that was much more than others were doing. And I had a conversation with a friend in Germany who knew that I had a baby on the way. And this friend said, “So how much time does the government pay you to take off?” And I laughed and said none. And he said, “Wow, we get paid a full year.”

And it reminded me that one of the failures of this country is that we don't have a federal policy around paid leave. And so I thought, how do we make this better for our employees internally? Like, how can we set a good example as an organization who's advocating for this kind of change? How do we do it internally? So for me, it was like, we give a full year's leave. We decided on six months fully off, paid full time, and another six months full time pay, but part time hours to transition back.

And I think it's an issue in all of those areas because we know that marginalized people oftentimes are the ones who suffer as a result of not having ample paid leave, they oftentimes don't have access to the jobs that can even offer them any set kind of substantial paid leave. You know, they are oftentimes marginalized communities, disabled people and other marginalized communities, work in hourly jobs where if you have a kid, it's like, okay, you can take off however much you can afford to take off, then you have to go right back to work. 

And so for us, like, it was data driven. It was like, I know that paid leave helps decrease poverty. Our goal is to lift our people out of poverty. I know that paid leave improves physical and mental health outcomes for parents. So, like, of course we're gonna increase our paid leave because we want our employees to have improved outcomes. And my hope is that, like, I didn't, my hope was not to brag about us being so great and having this paid leave policy, but to say, especially to our sector… the nonprofit sector and political sector burn out people so much, I wanted to set an example of this is what we can do as progressives to be able to model what we're trying to fight for in this country. 

Rachel: I have to ask a, sorry, one more follow up question to this. How do you make it work financially when no one else seems to be able to make it work? 

Dom: You know, we're a new organization. So we're kind of building this as we speak. We talked directly to our funders about it. I had a meeting with funders last week where I said, where I talked about our paid leave policy and said, “Oftentimes in the funding space, you, you all don't want to look at overhead costs. You want to look at program costs. But this is mission critical for us to be able to give someone that amount of time off to be with their families. It is so critical to the mission that we're fighting for that you provide that funding now enables us to give that.” And for us to be able to figure out how we distribute their work in a way that is equitable, that we're not dumping it on another employee, but maybe we're hiring a temporary worker. You know, however that looks. But like I'm having those conversations with funders to say, like, “you want this policy change that I want, but like, you can put your money where your mouth is right now. Fund it internally.” It's helping us advance the work that we're doing. And then we figure out the logistics. 

Rachel: Well, that is excellent. This has been wonderful, Dom. Just absolutely fabulous. But before we go, we do always like to ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. Are you ready? 

Dom: Absolutely.

Rachel: Okay. It may or may not be easier. I don't know. Like my co-host Jasmine, you live in the Atlanta area. What's one thing I should be sure to see or do next time I visit Atlanta?

Dom: So because I live in College Park, which is kind of Atlanta, but it's really the Atlanta airport. I'm a big advocate for people coming to College Park. We have a really adorable downtown area, we've got restaurants and shops and there's so much stuff to see and people kind of skip it, skip over it and just go right to Atlanta. So I want you to come to College Park. 

Rachel: In addition to all the activism work you do, you're also in a band. You've toured with the Indigo Girls, who I recently saw in concert, Joan Baez and The Bangles. So if you were running for office, what would be your rally entrance theme song?

Dom: I love this question. I'm no longer in a band but I'm still quite close with Amy and Emily of the Indigo Girls. And so if I, I would have them come in person to my rally and perform Hammer and Nail as my entrance theme song. I love that song. 

Rachel: That would be pretty amazing. What is the best part about working with Stacey Abrams? 

Dom: Two, two things. One is her incredible sense of humor. The comedic timing she has is perfect. And I always learn new words when I am around her. So her incredible vocabulary. I just always, I always learn something new to say from her and I, and I always forget to write it down and then I have to like, wait till she says it again. 

Rachel: Well, that is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work?

Dom: You can go to newdisabledsouth.org or you can find us on social media and connect, get involved. And we love to have everybody involved in this movement, disabled people and everyone else. 

Rachel: Excellent. It's been so great talking to you today. Thanks for joining me on the Suburban Women problem. 

Dom: Thank you, Rachel.

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Jasmine: Welcome back, everyone. So, Rachel, I really enjoyed your interview with Dom Kelly for a number of reasons. First he lives in Atlanta, so I think that makes him very special. 

Another thing that I thought was really interesting is something that came up in my interview with Fred Joseph and that's just about intersectionality. You know, a Black person can also be disabled. Or a gay person can be disabled. Or guess what, a Black person can be gay and disabled. So, you know, there are all these different intersections, but when it comes to disability and Rachel, you brought this up earlier, this is one of those marginalized groups that anyone might join at any time. And I just want to reiterate that because I do think that that could help with uniting us all in a way by making us understand that, like, for the things that make us different, there are some things that unite us. And one of the things that unite us is we all have a body and our body is expected to do certain things in order to do certain things. And sometimes that doesn't work out the way we expect it to. And we should be mindful that, as I said before, when we are inclusive, it includes us, because at any moment we might need those accommodations the same way we didn't need those accommodations literally the day before. 

Rachel: Yeah, I really enjoyed Dom. I loved hearing about his work and even about the progressive way that they've been able to provide parental leave and show the world these things can be done. We can make people's lives easier. And, and guys, I have to say, sometimes we're just going to have to barrel through and it's going to be hard, but we're just going to have to do it and show to people this can be done in so many ways. Even if they're not on board, even if they fight tooth and nail and they get something that they didn't vote for, but they benefit from it… oh well, we're going to benefit from it too. Again, we have to create the world that we want and the world that we want to live in. And that means that people are going to fight us and they're going to benefit from it. And it's going to seem really unfair. But as my dad always said, the world isn't fair and you should still do the right thing, no matter what.

Malynda: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Rachel: So with that, we are going to end with our Toast to Joy, we have a happy moment every week that we end on. And Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy this week?  

Jasmine: So, outside of being a legislator, I am also a professor in the classroom and I teach microbiology to college students, actually undergrads all the way to graduate students, I teach some courses. But every summer I get a chance to teach high school students in what we call pre-college. I would think of it as like college camp. And the classroom is my happy place, but pre-college is my heart place. I absolutely love those students. Every year, I have an amazing group of students. And today was the first day of class and the students were just so into it and it just made my heart smile. And I'll be honest, I had a rough couple of last days. But today, this morning, everything just felt better after I was done with that class. I love my students and I love teaching pre-college. So that is my Toast to Joy. My Toast to Joy is to doing things that I love and that, you know, refill my cup when I really need it.

Rachel: Thank you for sharing that. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. All right. Malynda, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Malynda: So mine's going to seem a little weird, but outside of me doing my own podcast, being involved in activism, I am a full time actress and singer. And my Toast to Joy is actually that SAG is striking alongside WGA. And it sounds weird that it's a joy, but it's a joy because as we've talked about inclusivity and advocating for yourself, I love that we are coming together as a community to really stand up to the CEOs that aren't compensating people fairly for the work that they do. 

I mean, the entertainment industry is a huge industry. It's a multi billion dollar industry that many people benefit from and enjoy. And if people really understood how much we are actually paid, then they would probably have less to say about us striking. And I think there also is a big misconception as to who this is affecting. We're not talking about the 1% of people that you recognize if you saw in Starbucks, we're talking about the middle of America actors that don't even make the $26,000 a year in order to qualify for SAG/AFTRA insurance. We're talking about those people where they may have five lines or two recurring spots on Grey's Anatomy and they maybe only made $1,500. It's those people that we're talking about. 

So if you are for the worker and the working American, that is who this fight is for. So I'm just, it's a joyous thing because I love seeing people come together just to stand up for what is right and what they deserve. So, Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: Well, mine is to… last week, we moved my in-laws from New York to South Florida where we live now. They have lived in the same apartment in New York for about 30 years. And they had lived in New York since they immigrated to the U.S in the late seventies. So they moved and it was a big move for them, but we can help them more and they can have a better quality of life because things were getting hard for them to live on their own in New York City. So they're my Toast to Joy. 

And then right now I am with my grandmother, we're with my grandmother in Oklahoma for a few days. So ultimately though, my overarching Toast to Joy is how the elderly people during this horrible heat wave, literally, you guys might not have known this, but you can set your air conditioner to 79 degrees and think of all the energy that they are saving for all of us. If you need me the rest of the day, I will be outside in Oklahoma and it's going to be around 106 degrees heat index, but it will still probably feel cooler. But really, okay, I'm being facetious, but it is a privilege to have people in our lives who have lived such long and full lives and they are all people who are seeking even in their, you know, last years of their life to make the world a better place and to still continue to do great things. So Alex and I are very blessed, and that they're all able to have a relationship with our daughter is very special to us. 

But thank you everyone for joining us today. Before we go, I wanted to mention that we've started posting our episodes on YouTube. We are now YouTube stars, and my daughter is still not one, so she's very upset about this. It's just the audio for now, but we're planning to start releasing some videos in the fall as well. So now's a great time to subscribe to Red Wine and Blue's YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss anything you'll find us @RedWineBlueUSA. Thanks again for listening and we will see you next week on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.