It’s Okay To Have Questions (with Jess McIntosh and Jill Jonassen)

This week, we’re joined by Jill Jonassen to talk about Red Wine & Blue’s new limited series podcast The Cost Of Extremism. Our hosts Rachel, Jasmine and Amanda are taking a well-deserved summer break during the month of August, but don’t worry - there will still be a podcast in your Suburban Women Problem feed! The Cost of Extremism is a 4-episode deep dive into the true cost of extremism… on our kids, families, and communities.

After hearing all about the new pod, our hosts are joined by one of our favorite guests of all time, Jess McIntosh. Jess hosts AMA (that’s Ask Me Anything) events with Red Wine & Blue where attendees can ask questions about gender and sexuality without any judgment. So today, we held our own mini-AMA where Jasmine, Rachel, and Amanda were able to ask some of the most common questions that come up at these AMA events - plus a few of their own! Should we be putting our pronouns in our email signature? What exactly is gender-affirming care? And what are some ways we can all think about our own gender, regardless of how we identify? It's okay to have questions, and Jess McIntosh has answers.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to travel, nature, and adventure in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

We’ll be on a 4-week break for the month of August but The Cost Of Extremism will be right here in the SWP feed. And we’ll be back in September with more episodes of The Suburban Women Problem!

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 29

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone, thanks for joining us. I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Amanda: And you're listening to the Suburban Women Problem. It's been an eventful summer with so much happening in the news and in our lives, but I hope that everyone listening right now is able to take a moment to rest a little bit before the fall. Here on the pod, we'll be taking off the month of August to do a little rest and recovery of our own, but don't worry, you'll still have something to listen to. Red Wine and Blue has created a special four episode series called the Cost of Extremism that will run on the Suburban Women Problem feed all month.

So today we'll have Jill Jonassen on the pod to tell us more about it. And after we talk to Jill, we'll be joined by another one of our favorite people, Jess McIntosh. Jess has been doing some amazing AMA events. That's Ask Me Anything. So we thought we'd make this episode our own little AMA. 

But before we get to that, how are you all? I missed you last week. And over the week, I got to see Jasmine on MSNBC. So Jasmine was like, “look, I know Amanda misses me. She'll catch me on MSNBC.”

Jasmine: Yeah! I had the opportunity to go on MSNBC and, you know, when they asked me to come on, they were basically like, “Hey can you talk about the 2024 election?” And that was pretty much what I was prepared for. So I wasn't exactly quite sure, you know, what we would be discussing. But as the host of the show started talking about what's going on down in Florida with the changing of the curriculum for Black history to include that slavery “had some benefits for the enslaved people”... once I figured out that's what I was talking about, I was like, Oh, yeah, I got something to say. 

Amanda: I got this. 

Jasmine: I just can't imagine, you know, that people sat in a room and really voted on this and was like, yeah, this is what we're going to do. Let's be clear. Slavery was not vocational training at all, like by any stretch of the imagination, and no amount of rewriting history will make it so. Being beaten, being raped, being sold off like a piece of meat or a farm animal, these are not things that anyone benefited from, except for those who were actually doing the enslaving. And those benefits have carried on into now, into present day, while the lack of benefits to the slaves and their future, you know, families, some of we're still seeing some remnants of how that took away from them, even to this day. So I am very, very angry with Florida right now. 

Amanda: Justified. Can I just say I loved your quote? “There is no benefit to being raped.” Like it was so clear and concise. 

Rachel: You beat me to it. I was gonna, I was gonna say that too. 

Amanda: Yes, it was perfect. And then you have people like Dan Rather, who's like, there is no other side to the story. I love how clear and consistent that it seems like we all are being here. Like, yeah, there's no other side. There is no benefit to being raped. There is no benefit for all the things you, that you mentioned. And it didn't take a playbook. It didn't take talking points. No, it is just the truth. 

And I would also like to say, so economics is called “the dismal science.” I don't know if you two know this and there's different stories for why, but the main story of why it's called the dismal science is because during slavery, the people who were doing the enslaving were looking to economists to say, “You guys are jerks. You probably are for slavery.” And economists were not. They said, “Actually, I think our economy would be better off if we gave people the freedom to work and do what they want.” Which I think is a really interesting story. And so they called it the dismal science because at the time the people doing the enslaving were really pissed off that economists would give no economic justification for it because even the economy was worse off with slavery than without.

Rachel: It was, it was a great hit, Jasmine, and I'm so glad you did. I missed it, but I saw the clip and it was really good. 

I would like to pivot to a story that I sent to you guys because I'm just so upset about it. And we've talked about it on the pod and that is three 16 year olds, I believe, have died in industrial accidents this summer after laws were changed. And we talked about this a lot on the pod that, yeah. They allowed younger people to work, work later, work in more dangerous jobs, and this is the result. 

Amanda: Was this to make America great again? Are we there? This is the greatness they wanted? 

Jasmine: Yeah, back in the day when we had child labor. Yeah, apparently.

Rachel: Some of our listeners, I know Jasmine, you have a 16 year old or is he 17 now? 

Jasmine: 17. Yes. 

Rachel: Yes. 17. Yes. But so my daughter's only 12 and there is no way on God's green earth that in four years she could ever do an industrial job. But for real though, it's, it's a matter of development and, you know, the frontal lobe and that children are not able to be careful. And we know that children think they're invincible and all this stuff, but all these things, but this is exactly what we said would happen. 

And I hate that we continue to be right about this. I mean, the women who testified what happened when they might never be able to have children because they weren't allowed to have a procedure that would not only give their unborn child dignity, but preserve their ability to have children in the future, and that these are being taken away from them. And we said that was going to happen, and it's happening. We said that these continued attacks on teachers and assaults on teachers are going to mean that people don't want to be teachers anymore because they're being attacked. That's happening. We have said that if these laws are changed, there will be accidents. It will not help the economy. It will make it worse. And that is happening. And three teenagers have died.

And I'm tired of being right. But the best thing we can do in these circumstances is talk about it, to highlight it and to make sure that the people in our lives know these things are happening. Because they're not getting a lot of publicity.

Jasmine: And I would also, to that point, it's really difficult being right because the consequence of being right is that there are dead children and we do not like that. However, I think it's important that we continue to talk about these things because then the more we talk about them, people might think… their mindset might be, “They've been right about things before. Maybe there's actually some credence to what they're saying. Maybe I should actually listen.” 

And you know, we all have children and you know how sometimes you have to kind of repeat yourself over and over and over again and the kid doesn't seem to absorb it. But then when the thing happens that you said would happen if they did the thing that you told them not to do… when it happens, it's like they have a replay in their brain of all the times mommy said, “Don't do this thing.” And next time they might actually believe you when you say, don't do this thing.

Amanda: I know. But again, like to be the dismal scientist here, like there's a reason why we have these child labor laws. And it isn't just because we don't want kids to die. Like that is clearly a very, we do not want these children to die. But the reason why we didn't want even like, we had children as young as six and seven who used to be in these factories, but we have a better economy when those children are taken out of the workforce. And they're educated. And now we have one of the most educated, highly skilled workforces in the world. And we have that in part because of these child labor laws. So now we have educated workers to go off and make our economy the largest economy in the world because of things like child labor laws, where he said, you know what, we should educate workers. And then they go into the workforce. 

Jasmine: That makes so much more sense. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I'm not an economist, but that makes sense to me. 

Amanda: I mean, you’re a woman. So basically we kind of already knew this. Women are basically economists by nature. 

Jasmine: But there was a woman, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who was pushing this idea that we need to get, you know, small children back on the, you know, conveyor belts.

Amanda: Oh, that’s true. But not her kids. Someone else's kids. 

Jasmine: Yeah. And so I do want to point out that like, sometimes there are just people in positions of leadership where all they see is somebody's bottom line, like a company or corporation or someone. 

And so a lot of this is a consequence of during the pandemic. People stopped working because either they had to temporarily or whatever. A lot of those people did go back to school. They did get more educated or they decided to, like, do something different. So they didn't return to some of these jobs where they weren't getting paid, you know, adequately anyway. And so the response to that seems to be from some circles instead of “Let's pay people more. Let's give people more benefits. Let's make sure that people, you know, are adequately prepared for the job. All these things.” Instead of that, they were like, “I got an idea. Let's just get kids to do it because we don't have to pay them crap. And they don't even know what benefits are.” 

Amanda: These are kids. I think the most recent child who died was going into ninth grade. Like these are kids who should be in school. And what we need to be talking about is how do we improve school for these kids? How do we improve education for these kids? That's what we need to be talking about. Not how can we take these kids out of education so that they can work?

And I loved… did you guys see Biden's most recent campaign video using Marjorie Taylor Greene? It was amazing, right? So like you have Marjorie Taylor Greene who is trying to attack Biden and it said they use exactly word for word what she says. She is in his campaign ad saying that Biden has done a lot for programs to address education, medical care, urban problems, rural poverty, transportation, Medicare, Medicaid, labor unions and he is still working on it. And he was like, I approve that message. 

Rachel: No, it was great. It just says so much about them.

Jasmine: I know. And what's really funny about the ad, like you said, she's saying this as a way of being insulting. And so I was just thinking about like, you know, as a candidate for office, we have to do financial disclosures and you have to disclose every donation given to them. And I genuinely was like, Biden should disclose on his campaign disclosures an in-kind donation from Marjorie Taylor Greene, because... yeah, the speech was perfect. So, you know, I feel like this was a donation to his campaign. I'm like, she is stumping for Biden right now. And I'm okay with that because the truth is the things that they are talking about, the things that they see as negatives, most Americans actually want these things. Most Americans want stronger education and they want industrialization.

Rachel:  And they are willing to pay for it. Like we know it costs money and we want to pay for it. These are the things we want our tax dollars to pay for. And instead they're wasting it. So I'm glad that she's talking about what he's doing and where he's spending money because a lot of people aren't seeing it and maybe by her saying it, the people that I want to see it are going to see it because I think that's been a real problem is getting that message out.

Amanda: They will see it. Yes. One of the things she said is education because we know, especially for every mom out there, like education is a big deal. It is one of the things that's top of our list. And I love that our Troublemaker this week is a mom in Ohio and an outspoken advocate for public education. She's also the host of the new Red Wine and Blue limited series podcast, The Cost of Extremism. Jill Jonassen, welcome back to the show. 

Jill Jonassen: Hello everybody. 

Amanda: Hi Jill. It's good to see you again. I'm so excited to hear about the cost of extremism. So what inspired that project and what's it all about? 

Jill: Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I think extremism is a word we're all hearing in the news. And a lot of us are feeling it in our communities. So I'm feeling it in my own community as well as many of our listeners. And we really wanted to take a project that dove a little deeper into what we're seeing and how extremism is affecting our kids and our families and our communities.

So we interviewed 16 women for four different episodes. And then, you know, what can we do? Because as we tell these stories, we want to inspire people and give them the power to do something in their own communities. 

Jasmine: I love that. I love that. We're going to get this message out and it starts with just talking to regular everyday people about what's going on in their lives. So I'm very curious because you said you did quite a few interviews. What are some of the conversations that stuck with you the most? And, you know, can you give us a little preview of what to expect?

Jill: Yeah, of course. So we'll have four different episodes. The first one focuses on active shooter drills. Then we move into school vouchers, then anti trans legislation, and then school boards. So we, all 16 people are women and they're all incredible. So it's hard to just pick, you know, one or two, but if I had to say some that really stuck out is in the active shooter drills. I did interview two young women, one that just graduated from high school, and she is a survivor of a school shooting. So her best friend did not survive but she was shot and she survived. So just hearing her tell the story as someone who just graduated high school, talking about how, you know, her friends are going to the beach on the weekend, but she's going to D. C. to lobby for gun legislation, and she's 18. And I have a daughter who's about to turn 14 and go to high school. So it kind of took my breath away when I heard her talk because I'm like, this could be the reality for my daughter, as many of us know who have children that go to school. And that really hit home. 

And then as far as the anti trans legislation goes, we talked to some incredible activists and one is Alejandro Caraballo. And you know, she was talking about how there's like 5% of the population who's obsessed with trans people, like 1% of the population. And she said, you know, they're, it's like, they're trying to eradicate us. And this is affecting youth as well. So just hearing that, eradication of a group, of people is just devastating. 

And then also when you think about school boards, we talk about Moms for Liberty all the time. Jennifer Jenkins, we interviewed her and she is someone who's on the school board in Florida and she beat the incumbent who is one of the co-founders of Moms for Liberty and the harassment that she has dealt with… you can't even make this stuff up. It's just insane. And that's why people need to keep hearing this. Like, this is actually happening to just everyday people. 

Rachel: We have to keep talking about this. We cannot let our foot off the gas of telling these stories. We just talked about that before you came on, but there's so much that we have to share these stories. We have to share this with people. And I'm sorry if it's not what people want to hear, but it is. imperative that we don't let any of this happen in vain. And I mean, as you know, this is very personal for me, but it's also important for me to tell the stories of other people who have been in similar situations. Like it's not just a few people. It's not just people who testify in impeachment hearings and their families. It's also people who run for school board.

You're a mom and you've been dealing with extremists on your, on your own local school board as well, right?

Jill: Yeah, and that's the thing I want people to understand that this is not isolated in one community, one state. It is all over nationally. So when I talk to people in my own community, I like to tell them like we are not just experiencing this on our own and our particular school board member who's extreme. The messages and the language that she uses, we're seeing it on a national level. So if you think about it, like, it kind of, like, school board stuff kind of started with CRT. And then it kind of moved into anti-trans. And now we're seeing anti-Semitic language, which is, I can't even believe it. And I'm seeing that on our local school board. And I'm like, “She's not coming up with this on her own, right? There are stronger forces here that are infiltrating, like actually from the bottom up.” And we do talk about that. 

And the other episode that I kind of briefly mentioned was school vouchers, which… they're trying to dismantle public education. So I want everybody to understand, and we talk about this on the podcast, is that public education is so community focused. I grew up in a small town, and we interviewed Jess Piper, who is executive director from Blue Missouri, who's an incredible advocate for public education, and she talks about that, like, this is community, it's employing people, people are going to the football games on Friday nights. And so that's where, you know, community, when we're seeing extremism, we can all come together and we can stand up against that. And then that's what I'm seeing in my own community, which is great.

Amanda: Oh, that's such an important point. Like we have been talking about how education is so important for so many things, like our kids need to have a solid education. It gives them the start for the rest of their lives. It's important for them. For families and also our economy. So you can't tell me you care about the economy and not care about public education. Like you have to care about public education if you care about our economy. 

So Jill, you live in Ohio as do I, and this is our last chance to tell people about the upcoming special election, which I've also been a little surprised to see how many people nationally have been jumping in to help out in Ohio to spread the word about what is going on in August. So could you remind everyone what is this special election going on in Ohio in August? 

Jill: Yeah, well, the special election is… it's unnecessary for one thing, because they just voted to end special elections only a few months ago, because it is… 

Amanda: Costly. 

Jill: Wasteful, right? Iit's like an unnecessary cost. So, you know, you just have to go in thinking about that. But we have gathered over 700, 000 signatures to get an amendment to the Ohio constitution in November for people to vote for reproductive health care. So it looks like that's probably going to go on the November ballot. So and that, I just want to say, it's not just about abortion. It's about protecting fertility care. It's about protecting miscarriage care. And that's all it is. There's nothing else. It's reproductive healthcare. 

Amanda: Yeah. It's even about maintaining a pregnancy. Like there have been court cases where people were trying to force women to have an abortion and part of language is also you have the right to continue a pregnancy even if someone wants you to end that pregnancy, which I think is the language of it is amazing. This is about reproductive freedom and reproductive freedom in all its forms. 

Jill: Exactly. Yeah. Like just look at the language. It's very simple, easy to, you know, to read. And so like over 50% of Ohioans are like, “yes, that's what I want.” So this scares people who don't want that. So in August, we're having this crazy election, you know, that we just voted to not have any more where they're trying to increase the majority to a super majority. So to get an amendment, then it has to be 60% of people to vote for that. So we are telling everybody to vote no. 

And my thing is, I don't understand why anybody would vote yes. Like, even if you're, you're going to vote no in November, why would you vote yes in August? And we're even seeing conservative groups come out and be like, “We're still voting no but this is crazy. We, you know, the community, when the community speaks and the majority of Ohioans want something, then you need to respect that.”

Amanda: Yeah, this is really their Hail Mary pass. Where you even have, you know, Frank LaRose admitting that, “Oh, this is really to try and stop November because the only way that we can try and stop November is to change the rules of the game. And to make it so we have to change the rules ahead of time so that we can find some way where the minority can be what goes and the minority can make decisions for the majority of people and it is really fundamental at chipping away democracy. 

Jasmine: I love that y'all brought up for that particular one. I love that you bring up the fact that even conservatives are like, “Wait a minute. You know, I was actually okay with it when you explained it was for November, but then what happens after November when I want to try to do something?”

Rachel: This is a forever thing. This is changing the law.  

Jasmine: Well,Jill, I am so looking forward to the Cost of Extremism. I know we're, we will be on a little break, but I'm still going to be listening in to the pod. And so I'm really excited to hear these interviews. So where can our listeners go to hear the interviews?

Jill: Yeah. So we'll have them on this feed, The Suburban Women Problem. So if you're following the Suburban Women Problem, you'll hear it. If you're not following the Suburban Women Problem, go ahead and follow it, highly recommend that. And then we'll also have our own feed too, Cost of Extremism. 

But also we're gonna be doing a lot of fun things on social media. So the creator of this project is a video editor as well. So she's taking each interview and she'll have a short video of each person that we interview that we'll be sharing on social media so you get to little know a little bit more. So follow us on Instagram and TikTok and Threads, I think that's usually where we share our videos and yeah, follow Suburban Women Problem and then you can look for Cost of Extremism anywhere you get your podcasts.

Amanda: Love it. Jill, thank you so much for joining us. This has been great and I can't wait to hear it. 

Jill: Thank you guys. 

Amanda: Thanks, Jill. Now we're going to share the trailer for the Cost of Extremism and when we come back, we'll be joined by Jess McIntosh. 

BREAK

Jasmine: Welcome back, everyone. This week, we're doing something a little different. Our featured guest is joining all three of us for our very own Ask Me Anything. Jess McIntosh, welcome back to the Suburban Women Problem. 

Jess: I am so glad to be here. And this is like a nice little full circle because we actually started doing these Ask Me Anythings because of a conversation that we had on this pod, like a year ago, about gender identity. And I wound up like telling that little story and apparently it, it, it sparked a few conversations and so it's kind of, it's nice to come back after we've been doing all of that. Thanks. 

Rachel: We're so happy to see you. I love the Ask Me Anythings, by the way. I'm a huge fan of those and I think that they have, I mean, I've learned a lot and I'm sure other people have learned a lot as well.

Jess: I have too. I have too. I, it's been, it's been really fun to be able to hear, you know, I'm an expert in a few little things, including like my own identity, but it's been really nice to hear from like, what is gender affirming care? Like hearing from an actual doctor, I feel like I am so much more empowered and ready to have those conversations than I was before. And I'm, I'm fairly high information as it is. 

Rachel: I love that. Recently we're, we're traveling and I was, we were listening to NPR and one of the things– I love NPR, big NPR fan– but I noticed they do a lot of like having a journalist come on and talk about a subject. And I actually thought of the AMAs. I thought about our podcast as well. We don't do that. We have like actual people who… this is their life come on and talk about it. And to me, it's just so more authentic and powerful. And it's not someone who studied something, which I do think gives you a different perspective, but to hear it from a real person is just so much more meaningful to me and not have that extra layer.

Jess: Yeah, think about, like, in other aspects of our lives and cultural understanding, we would never stand for that. Like, if you had a panel of men talking about the experience of motherhood, that would look very strange, like right away, we'd be like, wait, there's something wrong. If you had like four white people talking about the legacy of systemic racism with like no Black people to talk about how that affects them, we would be like, hey, wait, something's up here.

And yet we talk about gender issues and transgender experiences and being non-binary and we talk about that constantly with zero input from the people who are actually affected by those identities like and it's just it's wild that we haven't gotten there yet. That's it. 

Jasmine: That's so true. You know, but actually I would say this. I have actually seen a couple of panels and things put together where I'm like, why is there a whole panel on racism and literally there is only white people on this. And I'm like, I don't, what are we, what are they talking about? I don't, I'm so confused. 

So, you know, I've not had an opportunity to participate in an AMA or an ask me anything. So could you tell our listeners a little bit about AMA events that you've been doing for Red Wine and Blue for our Freedom to Parent campaign? And also like what's been the response events? 

Jess: It's been so much fun. So, so an AMA is an Ask Me Anything which is like language developed by Reddit, like Reddit would have an AMA day and somebody cool would come and answer all the questions that anybody at Reddit could, could ask. 

So, we have AMAs around the Freedom to Parent campaign, which basically means like, let's get into this gender stuff. Cause that is what they are focused on. That is what the opposition, the extremists are focusing on. And, and it's, you know, it's a new conversation for a lot of people and that means that, you know, everybody, I think, you know, our folks are great.

Like, like they, they want to be inclusive of everybody. They want to treat everybody with respect, which means that they're a little scared even to like ask questions sometimes, because sometimes the questions can reveal that we maybe don't already know everything that we think we ought to know about an identity or an issue. So, we've had these ask me any things where, you know, sometimes it's me. And, and all I do is talk about my own experience as somebody who identifies. But sometimes it's, it's a doctor who engages in gender affirming care. It's a teacher. It's somebody who has real experience in this. 

And also, you know, it's, it's low stakes. Like, I, I liken the one that I do to you know, in Pride Month, there are parents who will stand at the side of Pride events and be like, Hey, do you need a hug from a mom? Like, do you need advice from a dad? Like, I'm not your parent, but I'm a parent. And it's like, it's just sweet and wonderful. So I sort of feel like mine is like the reverse. Like, do you want to ask a queer kid something? Like, I will be the queer kid that you can ask your questions of. Because one, I'm not your kid. You can't hurt my feelings. Two, I'm not even a kid. I'm 41. Like, my little identity is not super fragile anymore. 

You know, like when I came out as bi to my mom when I was 15, her response was, “Well, I don't know that that exists.” And let me tell you, that really hurt as a 15 year old, like we're, we're good now. That was fine. When I told my mom that I was non binary as a, like, 39 year old, and she's like, I gotta tell you, I don't understand what that means at all. I'm like, it's okay, let's talk about it. Like, I'm not fragile. So you can ask. 

So I've gotten, I've, like, questions that run the gamut. It's basically, it's questions that, you know, parents are afraid to ask their own kids because they don't want to hurt their feelings, but also, we've got questions, and it's okay to have questions, and let's talk about it like adults. So my AMAs are only for people who identify as adults. 

Rachel: I love it. So I'm going to take this opportunity, because I'm old, and I don't know, what, what's the etiquette here? Should we ask people what their pronouns are, and if so, how do we do that without being awkward?

Jess: Okay, this is a, this is a good one, and I love this question, because it comes from a good place. Like, you just want to tell somebody that they're safe with you, right? Like, that's why we put our, you know, that's why you put pronouns in your own bio, even if you identify as cis, like, you look like a woman, the world thinks you're a woman, you identify as a woman, you still put she/her in your bio, just because you want to be that.

People who might identify otherwise to know that you care. So that's where this question is coming from. You don't really have to ask for pronouns, unless you're in a position to ask somebody's pronouns. If you think that the barista who serves you every morning is trans, you don't have to ask their pronouns. You probably never need to use pronouns to refer to the barista to say, “Can I have a latte? Thank you so much, your hair looks great this morning.” Like, you don't need the pronouns. 

If you are working with somebody, if you actually have to communicate about this person where you need to refer to them as she or he or they, then go ahead and ask. It is never rude. Like, never rude. I love being asked my pronouns, I think probably because, you know, I, I look fairly typically cisgender female, so the fact that I identify as non-binary, it's like if somebody, if somebody cares to ask me what my pronouns are, I feel very seen, it's really nice. People don't really get offended by it, but also, don't stress about it too much. You only have to ask for pronouns if you actually need to use a person's pronouns to refer to them.

Amanda: So I will also say, again, being a little older, so I don't put pronouns in my email. I've just never really thought about it. Is that something I should put in my email? 

Jess: Well, it's, I mean, this is, this is sort of a personal decision. And this is actually how I came to my own non-binary identification was, you know, I work in progressive politics, so five-ish years ago we all started putting our pronouns in our email signatures and I didn't want to. Like, I was just like, I don't, I don't know why, but I don't want to stick my little she/her in my bio, and that's weird, but I, I don't want to, and I'm not going to, and that's that. But I sat with that for a minute, and realized, like, of course I don't have a hard time signaling that I'm okay with other gender identities, I have a hard time because I don't really identify as a woman. Like, she/her was tough for me. I used the word “girl” until I was, like, 35 to refer to myself. Like, woman was just tough. And there are a thousand examples of, like, who I am and always have been, and I've always chafed at being labeled a woman. So eventually, you know, I, I realized that I, I have a non-binary identity and now my pronouns, I'm fine with she/her, I'm fine with they/them. 

And I do put it in my email signature now. I don't think it's necessary to do it, but I do think if you work with people who might be concerned about whether or not, you know, if you work in like a customer service capacity, or you work with at risk people in any way, or you work in the medical profession, if you work in a space where it's really important to communicate to people that you are a safe person to talk to about anything, you Then please put your pronouns in your bio. It's a great way of just letting, like, just raising your hand and being like, “Hey, I'm safe. I'm good.” If you don't ever, you know, if it's not so important to you that you read that way to strangers, to people you might interact with on a daily basis, I wouldn't stress about it too much. The most important thing is to just treat people with respect, like treat people the way that you would want to be treated. And I know it's unusual to have people going by they/them pronouns, but it's not that hard.

Amanda: It really isn't that hard. Like, when you see, like, a bag, like, “hey, who left their phone over here? Who left their bag?” We use it all the time. We just don't realize we're using it all the time.

Jasmine: We do. So, I know that, or I feel like the evolution of the word queer, you know, has–

Amanda: This one's hard for me. I've heard my grandpa say it in a very negative way. So that is how I hear that word. 

Jasmine: Yeah, and so I would love to hear from you, Jess, like some people use the word queer, but other people actually say that word is very offensive. And I will also add, some people say it to be offensive. And so I'm just trying to figure out from your perspective, like, is the word queer offensive? 

Jess: I use it. Queer is actually my, like, I, like, in the LGBTQ, I am the Q. And that is, it depends on how you're using it, frankly. Never put an A in front of it, okay? Never use it as a noun. 

Amanda: Yeah, that, I would say that is also true for, like, Jewish or Jew. Like, if you say, “that person's a Jew,” like, that's, that sounds offensive. 

Jess: Yeah. You know, “Jewish” is gonna be how we do that. Like, it's the, it's the exact, yes, same rules apply for queer. And it has been reappropriated. Queer was only a slur for a very, very long time. And then, and then the community started taking it back and they've done it so effectively. Like, people like me who, you know, I, I grew up in the 80s, I came out in the 90s. That word has always been a positive one for me. 

And we don't really live in black and white, the queer community. Like, there are lots of people who aren't gay or straight, they're somewhere in the middle, and queer probably feels… I mean, for me, like, I am, you know, I date anybody of all genders. I used to identify as bisexual. That suggests a gender binary. Like, “I date men and women.” Well, now that we know so much more about gender identity than we did when I decided, you know, I was going to identify as bisexual, there are so many more than men and women. I'm not saying that I would only date you if you identified as a man or a woman. Of course I would be happy to date a non-binary person. 

So my understanding of my own sexuality, my own sexual orientation, has changed quite a bit as the gender expansiveness conversation has happened. So I can't really say bi anymore. I also can't say that I'm pansexual like the kids do, because I'm too old and it sounds silly to me. “I’m pan. I’m pan.” I just can’t do it.

Rachel: Yeah my daughter has tried to explain this to me.

Amanda: I don't think I understand it. 

Jess: You're attracted to anybody of all genders. Anybody on the, you're attracted to a human being. Anywhere on the spectrum. That's it. “Queer” does it for me. Queer is… you just live somewhere in that community. Gender is fluid, sexual orientation is fluid, all of that is fluid, so queer just sort of… it's an umbrella term that we can all, we can all hang out under.

Rachel: You know what I, I like about this, is even if I don't understand everything you're saying from an experiential standpoint, I can accept it. And, and this is actually quite a bit of growth for me, not that I ever really thought about it in a different way, but I mean, just to, to say things exist in a place that I haven't ever experienced and that's all right. Like, I don't really like kimchi that much, but my husband does and, and that, that is okay. It is okay to, to not fully understand something, but accept something that you don't understand. And a person whose identity is not your own experience, but just to say, “Okay, it's just another thing that I don't quite, you know, understand.” And then, but you see people as human beings and that's really, I think what we're getting at is that dignity, that respect, and just treating someone the way you want to be treated. It's a very simple concept if you break it down to that. 

Jess: Most cisgender people, and, and I should define that term so, so the reason why we have the word, you've probably heard the word cisgender… cisgender is somebody who was assigned male or female at birth and continues to identify that way. So you were born, the doctor said, it's a girl, and you have felt like a girl your entire life, you had no problem cisgender. The vast majority of people are cisgender. That word had only existed in, like, a medical context, basically. 

Rachel: Jasmine explained it to us! From a science standpoint, I remember.

Jess: Scientists needed it, right? You have transgender people, you need a word for people who are not transgender. Doctors and scientists understood that, so they had the word cisgender. But what the rest of society did was say, “Okay, so you got trans people. And then you have the normal people.” Now you can see how that is problematic, right? Like, imagine if we didn't have a word for white. You had Black people, you had Asians, and then you had the “regular people.” Like, you see how that could be really, really bad. So of course you need the word cisgender. 

So, that is the vast majority of people listening to this podcast are going to be cisgender. And people like that, people who are cis regularly just don't think about their gender identity at all. It's a fun game, though. Like, what makes you feel like your gender? Like, think about it. Talk to your friends about it. This is one of the first ways that I realized I was non-binary, was that I was always asking my little girlfriends, like, what made them feel like a girl? Like, how do you know you're a girl? Like, what makes you feel like a woman? Because, like, we know that women who have had hysterectomies are still women. Women who have had mastectomies are still women. If you're born with different chromosomes or different external genitalia or whatever, like, you're still a woman. So what is it? Like, the only thing that makes up your gender identity is what you know to be true. 

So some of my friends would talk about a sisterhood. Some of them would talk about wanting to be moms or being moms. Some of them would talk about, “well, I'm a woman because society treats me like a woman.” I never had any relationship to my gender identity at all. I, like, I just didn't. I didn't feel like a woman, which is why I was so curious about the question. So, like, hang out with it for yourself. You're probably not gonna learn that you're non-binary, but you are gonna learn a little bit more about, like, what makes you you. And you'll have a little more sympathy or empathy for people for whom this is a real question of their lives, you know? I think a lot of people, like, they want to have the conversation. It's just never, you’ve never talked about it. 

Amanda: I love that you've talked about talking with a number of different people about what makes you feel like you're a woman and how do you identify that way? Because one of the biggest things that some of, at least I know some of my trolls like to ask me, “Can you define a woman? You tell me what it is.” Right? So I'm kind of wondering, what would you say to that? Cause they think it's like their big gotcha, like “Define a woman.” 

Jess: Well, it's, do you feel like a woman? Do you say you're a woman? You're a woman. Every woman defines it differently. 

Amanda: And they feel it differently.

Jess: Of course. Like some women are very, it's very about having kids. It's very about being a mother. Like that is, and for some women, it's not that at all. For some women, it's about living through sexism. It's like the sisterhood in the face of the patriarchy. It's, you know, we have very different… the only thing that matters is what you know to be true. That's it. And that just blows their minds. They have a really hard time with that.

Amanda: I love that. I'm going to use that. I'll cite you, Jess. 

Jasmine: I love this conversation because it's really good that you bring that up because I remember I was on Twitter or one of the platforms and someone basically was like, “you know, there's really no way to definitively define a chair without using the word chair.” And so then all these people were, of course, trying to define a chair, but every definition they came up with, you could actually use that definition to define something else. Or if you use that definition, or if you came up with a very specific definition for chair, then you left out a whole bunch of different types of chairs that could exist. And so this reminds me of this. It's like, you know. What is the definition of woman? And, you know, people do use that as a gotcha, but I don't know. I think that people just assume that the definition of woman is 2X chromosomes, has a vagina, has breasts, you know. 

Amanda: Very binary. Very binary definition. You either have this or don't.  

Jess: Of course, if you interrogate that a little bit, like, and you can't interrogate a troll, cause they just want to piss you off.

Amanda: It’s true, they don't want to have a conversation with you.

Jess: If their definition of woman is 2X chromosomes, boobs, and a vagina, and you ask them, “okay, so if a woman has a hysterectomy, is she still a woman?” They're going to say yes. If she has a double mastectomy, is she still a woman? They're going to say yes. If she's born with an XY chromosome, but she has boobs and a vagina, is she still a woman? They're going to say yes, but feel a little icky about it. Like, their definition falls apart so much faster than mine does.

Jasmine: You cannot define a chair!

Jess: If a woman tells me she's a woman, she's a woman. That's it, full stop. And we have done this in language, in history, before. Like, it's, it's a little bit frictiony when we, when we decide to do it, but, but remember the Mrs. to Ms. conversation?

Amanda: Oh yeah! 

Jess: Like, we change language when it becomes uncomfortably gendered for us. With every iteration, you know, a lot of people were like, “I don't identify as Mrs. One, it is, it literally is the possessive of a man.” 

Amanda: That's true. That's a good point. Yeah, I prefer Ms. 

Jess: Of course! That's, that's you saying your preferred pronouns right there. 

Amanda: I prefer, yes. Yeah, because I am who I am. My identity is not, like, tied up in my husband. I love him very much, however, I prefer Ms. 

Jess: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My, like, my mom, who is a cisgendered woman, really hates the word wife. It just, it chafes. It, it feels subservient to her, so she really prefers “partner” or “spouse.” And so because I love and respect my mom, that is the word that I use when I am describing her relationship with her husband. Like, I love the word wife. I'm fine with it. I think it's a little cheeky and subversive. But, like, we all define our own gendered language that we're comfortable with. We just sort of got, like, real hung up on the pronoun thing. But if you say, “Oh, no, I prefer Ms.,” you have done exactly the same thing as somebody saying, “Oh, my pronouns are they them.” We're just used to the Ms. 

Amanda: Oh. I like that example. 

Rachel: This is very interesting. I'm not even talking, I'm just listening to you guys, and like, soaking this in. This is fascinating. 

Jess: Like think about how many people hate “ma'am.” Like, they hate ma'am, they hate madam. You don't have to go by gendered language you don't like, even if you're a cis woman. Like, I prefer sir. And I tell people that.

Amanda: Oh, that's a good, that's very I feel like Battlestar Galactica, to geek out for just a second. I did love that aspect of Battlestar Galactica. 

Jess: Okay, fun Battlestar Galactica fact is the reason why Starbuck is so awesome in that show– and if you have not watched the show, everybody, it’s great– is that they wrote it for a man and then they just passed the woman and they didn't rewrite anything. She's amazing. She's incredible. It's like, “Oh, you just wrote a person. You wrote a person and then you let a woman play it and it was great. Okay, cool. Maybe we do more of that.” 

Rachel: I can't wait to go tell Alex this right after we finish this because he is a huge fan of Battlestar Galactica.

Amanda: So another thing I was gonna say, I hear some people say, trolls and otherwise, with a lot of the conversation about gender affirming care and about how you identify, is… “Well, this is just a phase.” And the connotation is like, well, if it's just a phase, then we can ignore it. We can, you know, “just a phase” comes with a bunch of other stuff. So what, what would you say to people?

Jess: This is really, this is a very interesting question because the answer has changed since I was a kid. Like, when I was coming out, we would get the “it's just a phase” thing, and we would assert, “No it is not, this is who I am, this is who I always have been, this is who I will be on my deathbed, this is my identity, this is it.”

But I was interviewing some kids for this particular podcast for Pride Month last year, and they were all kids, like, under, under 17, I think. And I asked them the phase question, like, “what do you say to people who say this is a phase,” from my own perspective as a kid in the 90s, expecting to hear the, like, “This is me, this is it, this is not a phase, it always will be.” And instead, every single one of them, the answer was, “so what if it is?” Like gender is fluid. Sexuality is fluid. You're going to treat me with respect regardless of how I identify at any given point. And I was like, “Oh, this is what they're so far ahead of us.” 

Amanda: They are so far ahead of us. The kids are alright. I love that. 

So another thing with the, with the just a phase, I think that what follows that in the connotation is like with gender affirming care, right? Why are we going to do something permanent, like a surgery, for something that I think– for someone else, again, you know, this is not me, but that someone thinks– it's just a phase, right? So how do we talk about and explain like, all right, so what exactly is gender affirming care? 

Jess: I think it's really important to note that we're not talking about surgeries, like the idea that a child could go in and request and receive a surgery. It's like, that's not true. That's not a thing. Also, this stuff is really expensive. Really expensive, like elective, like, like, a surgery like this is, we are not talking about 15 year olds being able to do this at any level, that's not happening. The gender affirming care that kids receive is really… it's a lot of therapy, it's a lot of talk therapy. Gender affirming care means a doctor who will treat you like the person you say you are, like the person you know you are. It is literally affirming your gender. Sometimes they will do puberty blockers, which is oral medication that can be taken to stop the onset of puberty, which is entirely temporary. 

Amanda: I never actually heard that before. 

Jess: If you stop taking the medication, you will experience puberty. Yeah. There is nothing irreversible about any of that. Like, like irreversible medical care is actually not given to children that way.  

Rachel: You know, what I've been thinking about this whole conversation is… I read something earlier this morning that said, we actually don't grow wiser from experiences unless we reflect on those experiences, because experiences in and of itself do not change us. We have to take that to heart and have some personal reflection. And what I'm hearing in this whole conversation that we've had with Jess is that. That's what this is. It's, it's accepting people. That's very much a personal reflection because you have to decide how you're going to treat someone. The dignity you're going to give someone is very much your choice and it has nothing to do with them and who they are. It's, it's what you do. All of this is a matter of personal growth and it's deciding whether or not you want to go down that path or you just want to stay stagnant. Because wisdom is not something that's granted to people just because just because they live to a certain age, almost 50 for me, but that's not how it happens. And so much of it is being willing to have conversations and frankly, just it's people like you who are willing to have these conversations and be so open and open minded.

So thank you. I, I always learn so much from you. Thank you for all you do. I have learned and used so much of what you’ve said, just personal conversation a couple of weeks ago with some family members and all the things. I mean, I think we're all probably experiencing that. We always talk about the holidays, but summers are kind of treacherous too, when we're getting together and seeing families.

Amanda: Oh, that's true. Yes. 

Rachel: But I mean, it kind of comes and you're not prepared for it. I wasn't. I think about the holidays, I was not prepared in the summer. And I'm like, I need to channel you, Jess. And it was helpful. So thank you so much for joining us today. But thank you again, more for just your openness to share and out of a place of recognizing We're not all where we want to be, but if we're learning, then we should respect that and each other and we should look to people's intent and and help people get to that point. So again, that's a very long thank you. But I hope you know that it comes from just my sincerest gratitude for you and appreciation for all you do. 

Jess: I just, I love that you have created the space to have conversations like this, because that's, it's so, it's so important, I mean, we're, to, to, to have new language in my 40s to describe the kind of person that I am and always have been, like, it makes so much more sense now, and I'm looking forward to, like, when I'm 80, and there is a whole new lexicon of ways to understand human experiences that maybe I don't personally identify with, and I'm gonna have to find a kid to explain it to me, because, I mean, that's just how it works. I mean, imagine how wild it would be to explain our culture where, like, women work as often as men do to somebody who lived a hundred years ago. Like, you know, this is part of the human experience and it's actually one of the more exciting parts of the human experience. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Growth and change. Yeah. 

Amanda: Thanks, Jess. That was great. Thank you so much. 

Jess: That was super fun! 

Rachel: Thank you, Jess. This has been such a great way to close out the season. But before we go, of course, we have to share our Toast to Joy. So Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy today? 

Jasmine: So my Toast to Joy is to travel to both new places and places that I've already been, but discovering newness in those places. I've had the opportunity to travel to Chicago. I just got back from Savannah. So Chicago was a first timer. So I got my first deep dish, delicious. 

Amanda: Chicago is a fun city. 

Jasmine: It really is. It's so walkable. And, and you know, what's really funny when I was there, I was like, “Oh my gosh, like everyone talks about the crime in Chicago” but I was like, “no, everyone's like walking around, eating at restaurants, going on their rooftops.” And I just loved it. And another thing that I did while I was there was we went to the American Writers Museum and we did a little exercise on creative writing. And so I got to realize that, as a left brained as I am, I'm very math and science brained. I do have a little creative streak inside of me. And I was able to do this creative writing project and after I was like, I want to write more! So it was a great time. And so I you know, I get to go to Minnesota next week for another conference and so I'm going there for conferences, but while I'm there, I'm like discovering these cities. So I'm just excited to travel near and far. That is my Toast to Joy as I bid you all adieu until the next season. 

Amanda: I love that. And I also love going to different cities for conferences because I don't know that I would always pick that city for a vacation, but I am never disappointed. And every time I'm like, I should pick that city for a vacation! Like there are so many great places in America and all over the world, but there's so many great places that we could go to that I think we often don't think about.  

Jasmine: I agree.All right. So Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: It's similar, actually. My Toast to Joy is to travel. As I mentioned, we are in Breckenridge, which is a place that's my happy place. I haven't been here in four years, which for those of you who know our story, we came here shortly after the July 25th 2019 phone call for I get a planned vacation, a little getaway. And I knew something was bothering my husband. I didn't know what it was. But I could tell something just was a little off and, but he was able to get away and relax and I think enchanted by the mountains. So we haven't been in Breckenridge since the pandemic, all that stuff, lots of other travel to do, but there's just something so healing and restorative about being in nature. 

And I also want to say to all the people out there who think that they have a lock on patriotism and love for country… I've been to some beautiful places in the world, but the United States of America is the most beautiful country, from the mountains to the sea. We have such a unique geography. And people in those places that love it and preserve it and make it amazing. And we have a lot of work to do, but this is just such a stunningly beautiful country, and I hope we can always protect this natural beauty. And that we always appreciate it. People should get out in nature and take a minute, take a breath. Even if it's in a park in your town, appreciate that beauty because it exists and you are worth taking 30 minutes to just enjoy that. And you should take that time for yourself. 

So with that, Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Amanda: I love that. So my Toast to Joy is actually similar to both yours, Jasmine and Rachel. So we are in Sun Valley, Idaho, about to leave on a rafting trip. And I am very excited. I love adventure. So my Toast to Joy is actually to adventure and to saying yes. I think women, sometimes we say yes too much but I think it's also our strength. That like saying “yes” can lead to some amazing things, whatever that adventure is, whether it's a rafting trip or, you know, a new thing to do or a new way to be involved. I love a good adventure. So my Toast to Joy is to adventure.

Rachel: Have a great time, Amanda!

Jasmine: Yeah!

Amanda: Thank you! I'm excited. All right. Thank you all for joining us today. I don't know about you, but I'm very excited to listen to the Cost of Extremism next week and all throughout August. So the three of us won't be in your podcast feed again until September, but The Cost of Extremism will be right here in your podcast app, the very same place you listen to us every week. 

If you want to learn more about The Cost of Extremism , you can visit redwine.blue. I hope you all have a fantastic month, have your own adventures and outdoor time and travel, and we'll see you in September.