Haircuts and Healthcare (with Amanda Zurawski)

*Content warning: pregnancy loss*

The Suburban Women Problem is back! We've missed catching up about the news and sharing our conversations with amazing guests, so we're so excited to be back with you for Season 5.

This week, Red Wine & Blue Founder Katie Paris is filling in for Amanda Weinstein. Katie, Jasmine and Rachel chat about all the news from the past 6 weeks, including some truly disheartening abortion bans in Arizona and Florida, and what Red Wine & Blue is doing to help. It's all about having those personal conversations with your friends, family, neighbors, and yes, hairdressers too.

Then Rachel sits down for a deep and heartfelt conversation with Amanda Zurawski. Amanda nearly died when her home state of Texas didn't allow her to get the reproductive healthcare she needed, and now she's the lead plaintiff in a court case against the state of Texas.

Finally, Katie, Rachel, and Jasmine raise a glass to campaign volunteers, team sports, and the new Pitbull/Dolly Parton collab in this week's Toast to Joy.

Have you heard about Project 2025? It’s the far-right extremists’ vision for America that Donald Trump will implement if he wins a second presidential term. If you want to learn more about Project 2025 so you can spread the word, we invite you to join a virtual event on Thursday, April 18th hosted by the African American Policy Forum. You can learn more and RSVP here.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

Rachel: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rachel Vindman.

Jasmine: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Katie: And this is Katie Paris filling in for Amanda this week. 

Rachel: And you're listening to the Suburban Women Problem. Welcome back, everyone. We are very excited to be here with you again, having great conversations about what matters to suburban women. Amanda has a very busy April, so she won't be able to join us today, but it's great to have you with us, Katie. 

Katie: Thanks for allowing me to come on, you know, I mean, being the founder of Red Wine and Blue every now and then means I get to pop into the Suburban Women Problem Podcast and it's always a highlight, y'all.

Rachel: Well, we're happy to have you. Later in the episode, I will get a chance to share my conversation with Amanda Zurawski. She's been bravely sharing her story about how the Texas abortion ban nearly cost her her life and we had such a deep and personal conversation. 

But first, we have a lot to catch up on in the news and we've missed discussing this. We've missed a lot while we've been gone and I've missed discussing the news with you guys. What stands out the most? 

Jasmine: So much. It's been a long time since we've all been on. And since we've been gone the GOP has still been unrelenting when it comes to reproductive rights, as if they have not learned anything. Any lessons whatsoever so far since the fall of Roe. And so I am just amazed at all of the craziness that's been happening. 

But I think the biggest thing that has just blown my mind has been the thing that's happening in Arizona. This whole thing about the 1864 law that was basically an abortion ban that has no exceptions except for the life of the mother. 1864 y'all. Civil War times. Arizona was a territory. It was not even a state. It's referred to as the Howell code. And I am just blown away. Not only that the courts said that this is allowed, but I am also equally as blown away that someone decided to go that far back to find a law that they could use to control women. Like, it just blows my mind that someone took the time to look for an 1864 law that they could use to ban abortion in the state of Arizona. So I'm, I just, I don't even know how to react to that. 

Katie: It seems like we continue to have these Dobbs moments of 2024. You know, of course, Roe v. Wade was overturned almost two years ago now. That was June of 2022. Alabama felt like one, where we had the state court ruling that basically led to IVF being banned in the state and all of the fallout from that. Then we had this latest news in Arizona with this very archaic abortion ban, and we've seen this happen in other states, too. Now we also saw in Florida, the state court approved a six week abortion ban.

But I got to love the people clapping back at that one for sure saying that we have enough signatures to put reproductive freedom on the ballot in Florida, which is going to be a really hard fought race, but it's so important in each of these places. And I think it's really easy to get down about all of this news, but we know that every single time they try to do something that is like overturning Roe v. Wade, that women, all Americans, no matter which state it seems, like, stand up and say, “Hell no, we're not doing that.” With the ballot initiatives, with elections as a whole. So look, I am ready for the backlash to this. I'm ready to work for it. It's coming in November. 

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, you know, in Florida, I live in Florida, and the most important thing is, you know, in a few weeks, we are going to have a six week abortion ban in Florida. To me, and this is what I always tell people, the most important thing to me is that women get their rights back. Because between May 1st, and whenever we vote in November, lots of women are going to suffer. 

Katie: What's it feeling like on the ground there, Rachel, you are in Florida. I mean, I'm seeing photos of Red Wine & Blue women in our network, you know, who are really coming together on this.

Rachel: Yeah. It's a galvanizing issue. It feels like we can finally do something in a state where it hasn't felt like that in a long time. I mean, I've only lived here a year, but you know, it's like, okay, now finally, because more than 80 percent, definitely 70 percent, probably 80 percent of Americans do not agree with these laws, which means we are under the rule of the minority. The people making laws for us are not in line with the will of the people, even in a state like Florida, where we have all Republican leadership. It still goes too far. 

Jasmine: I wonder, and I don't want to get my hopes up, and I'm generally a person who does not get my hopes up, I'm always cautiously optimistic, with probably more of a pessimistic side to me. But I wonder how likely we might see the Marilyn Lands effect in some of these states that are going to have reproductive rights on the ballot. Where, you know, there are going to be areas where the GOP thinks they have them on lock. But when reproductive rights are front and center on the ballot, you bring out people who might have thought about sitting out. And all of a sudden, these areas that they thought were red enough that they don't need to invest as much, they're a lot more purple than they might realize. And they might even shift to blue when it comes to a topic as important as this. 

People are seeing their rights eroded away. This is not even just a woman issue. I knocked on doors last weekend and when I asked people, men and women, what is their number one issue or what are some of the issues that are important to them? A lot of them said reproductive rights. A lot of the dads who had daughters. It was such a nice day, so we caught a lot of people walking outside or in their gardens and things like that. And they had their little kids playing outside. They have daughters and they are thinking about these things too.

So I really truly wonder if the GOP just does not realize, they're not reading the tea leaves and they do not see that having reproductive rights on the ballot is going to drive people out in a way that they are not calculating. And I would love to see that. Like I would love to knock them off their feet and catch them off balance. Because I don't think they're really, truly grasping just how important reproductive rights and access, access to abortion care really is to everyone across the spectrum, including people who might have voted Republican before. But they're like, this particular issue is really important to me.

Katie: Okay, so first of all, for those who might not have been following, Marilyn Lands is the Democratic state rep in Alabama who just won her race in a special election in a district that Donald Trump won. And, you know, she talked so much about reproductive rights, about, you know, IVF, contraception, abortion rights. And that resonated. And so I think the question is, like Jasmine's saying, are we going to see a lot more of that? And based on what we're hearing and seeing, we're thinking, so can I tell you all about my haircut this weekend? 

Okay. By the way, I got a haircut first time in nine months. That’s worth celebrating right there, but I was getting my haircut with a new person, cause the person who normally cuts my hair, I don't know where she is y'all, I'm kind of worried about her. But anyway, I hook up with this, this new woman, a friend of a friend of a friend. Okay. And so of course she gets to asking me what I do. We're talking about Red Wine and Blue, telling her about how we get women who haven't necessarily been involved in politics before involved. I start talking about how reproductive rights is one of the issues that we really focus on. And she just starts going off about how she can't believe any politician would try to do that. And she goes, “I'm thinking even not voting for Trump again because of this.”

Jasmine: Oh, wow. 

Katie: And she's like, and she said, she said, you know, “I don't follow along that much, but like, that's how I feel. That's how my mom feels.” You know, this is an issue that breaks through. Is it the issue that women are going to say in every poll, “it's my number one issue”? Not necessarily, because they haven't needed an abortion lately. But when it comes to judgment of our leaders, that women and, you know, dads, granddads, just people need to see this is a sticking point that is coming up. You know, she was just saying like, “I don't think he even really cares about abortion, but he just wants to get elected. And so, you know, how can I trust that he'd do the right thing?” I swear y'all, I didn't even lead her to this. 

Jasmine: Well, you know, what's interesting is I don't even think Trump knows what Trump wants. Because like, you know, on the one hand he's like, “Hey, like I would support a 16 week ban.” And behind closed doors, “I would support a national ban.” But then he's like, “Oh, it should be left up to the states.” But then when a state does something that might jeopardize his chances of reelection or winning in that state, he's like, “Hey guys, wait, you went too far.” And it's like, Trump doesn't even know. 

Rachel: Last week was like a tennis match.

Jasmine: Yeah. It's like, he doesn't even know what he wants. None of those people. They don't, they just want to win.

Katie: Yeah, that's right. And I think that's what's breaking through is that he doesn't actually have a position, but that he will do whatever is necessary just to get power, just to win votes. And I think that, like, the sort of tennis match of his own beliefs that we saw last night reinforced that. That he doesn't really believe anything. And we know that voters want leaders who will stand up for, for something. But this is the big question. We know that every time abortion rights have been on the ballot, they have won. 

Rachel: Every. Time. 

Katie: The question in 2024 is what impact is this issue going to have on candidate elections from the very top of the ticket all the way down to these so, so important state rep races and other local races?

Rachel: You just wrapped up your session, Jasmine. Tell us about it. What stands out? This is like picking your favorite child. Please tell us a wrap up, you know, how long is the session? Eight weeks? I need you to do it in like 30 seconds. Go now.

Jasmine: Haha. You know, so many things happen during our session, but I want to celebrate the small victories because I do think that that's important to do. We had over 20 something bills introduced in our session that would go after trans children or LGBTQ children. And while some bad bills did get across, none of, zero of the anti trans and anti LGBTQ bills got across. Again, I think that Republicans are starting to realize that going after vulnerable populations is not a winning message in 2024. It never really was a winning message except for in the deepest, darkest corners of the wherever. But for the most part, they're starting to recognize, at least in Georgia, that we're not going to win elections on these things. 

Rachel: Okay, Katie, we need an update. What's going on with Red Wine & Blue? What's going on in the trenches? And what can we do? 

Katie: So much always, but thanks for asking. Cause y'all are always our pump squad right there, right, right by us. So once again, to the shock of no one, suburban women are a coveted political demographic. Absolutely will be true in 2024. So it's our job, what we believe at Red Wine Blue, what we're taking on, is that we're going to make sure that suburban women are empowered to speak for themselves. We have political pundits saying what suburban women are going to do. We have people who spend a lot of money in our political system who are going to spend a lot of money on TV ads and polling, trying to figure out what suburban women think and get just the right talking point on a TV ad. That's not our focus. Our focus is on meeting women where they are in their communities to make sure that they feel empowered to speak for themselves in their communities and at the ballot box.

This doesn't start six weeks from the election. It didn't start yesterday or tomorrow. We are at this year round. So that means that when elections do come around, we are really ready and that women can feel prepared not only to vote in a way that they feel empowered and informed about in these local elections that can kind of be hard to get your head around and research, but also feel really confident and letting their friends know too.

So, you know, for example, there are critical state supreme court races in places like Ohio and Michigan. A lot of people don't even know we have a state supreme court, but these elections have a massive impact on, yeah, you guessed it, reproductive rights. Along with every other thing that does impact our day to day lives. We have Red Wine & Blue working in a lot of states, like North Carolina, where there is just barely a Republican supermajority that's doing a lot of harm locally. We're going to be working in places like that to make sure that we can get more of a balance of power going on in these states. And that's all going to depend on these critical suburban swing districts.

So. That's the whole game at Red Wine and Blue, really meeting people where they are online and in our local communities, building community so that we can speak for ourselves and not just have the political pundits and the people spending the billions of dollars determine the outcome of elections. We're going to take control, educate ourselves, and educate everyone we know. 

Rachel: To that, I want to say this. When we go towards November and we are talking about candidates and we are talking to our friends and our neighbors and other people we know, this is not a cult of personality. I do not own any flags that have any politicians' names on them. I am concerned about what is best for the United States and for United States democracy. And like we said, our society and what makes our country better. 

How I feel about a candidate and their age or their popularity, the personal choices they make really is not something I spend my time on. I'm a very busy person. So I just look at it, you know, very unemotionally in many ways. Which is not always who I am, but I just want to do what's best and move on with my life. So I do not have to love anyone. I am not marrying anyone. I'm not spending time with them. We just need to kind of keep that level and, and make sure that we know…

I also got my hair done this last weekend and my hairdresser was like, “What can I say to people who say they can't vote for Biden because of his age?” and I said, “Don't make it about the candidate. You have to make it about the policies and what will happen if they're elected, and the policies for which they advocate, and that is it.”

Katie: Hairdressers for Democracy. 

Jasmine: I know. I love it. I love it. 

Katie: Changing the world, one haircut at a time, ladies.

Jasmine: I mean, but it's true. It is true. I mean, I too am not marrying Joe Biden by voting for Joe Biden in November. I am marrying the idea that I want us to have a strong democracy. I really, truly am afraid of what our democracy looks like if the other person gets into office and that is just straight up. Joe Biden's already got a wife. I don't need to love him. I just need our country to be able to still stand on its principles. The principles that literally are the basis of why we exist as a country. We are supposed to be the, the, the prototype. And the fact that we are on the brink of that crumbling is really, really, really concerning to me. And so I'm with you, Rachel. It's not about Joe. Joe's got Jill. Joe doesn't need Jasmine. It's about the country. 

Rachel: So we also need to talk about what is Red Wine & Blue specifically doing for IVF and birth control? Because, you know, they're on the chopping block, whether we like to admit it or not.

Katie: Yeah, so when Roe v. Wade was overturned, people thought, “Oh my gosh, I never thought this would happen. They're really doing it. They're coming for abortion rights.” But it's not just abortion rights. Clarence Thomas, on the Supreme Court, said at the time that really this is just the beginning. That other things, including the right to contraception, also needed to be looked at again. And that is exactly what we have seen Republicans doing all across this country. We have seen state legislature after state legislature reject attempts by Democrats to do a pretty simple thing, which is just to protect the right to contraception. 

We're also seeing it in state legislatures and in the US Congress. Republicans propose laws, sometimes they sound like this: “The Life at Conception Act.” And what these laws would actually do is give you know, a fetus, or even when it's just, you know, some cells in your body, the same rights that you all, that, that we all have as, as as people walking around, as our kids walking around. And the consequences of this means absolutely restricted access to birth control, it means restricted access to IVF, and it could be so restricted that it could, in fact, make these things illegal. So we're seeing exactly what Clarence Thomas promised, but actually even sooner. And it's happening at the local level. It's happening at the state level. 

So Red Wine and Blue has launched a campaign called Save IVF and Birth Control. I love the subtitle here. It's like “They're coming for our rights. We're coming for their jobs.” Because we need people to know that this is a real possibility. No more surprises. No “Oh, I didn't think Roe v. Wade could actually happen.” All of this is happening. It's not just happening in Alabama. It's not just happening in red states. And it's not just abortion. 

And so it's really important that people understand this. And I will tell you that, you know, these extremist politicians, most of them, of course, are Republicans. They are very scared of this. They know that if independent women, that if those, some of those softer Democrats they're trying to appeal to, those softer Republicans they're hoping don't go away. They know that if these mainstream Americans figure out that, “Oh my gosh, all right, not, they're not just coming for abortion rights, but they're coming for all reproductive rights,” they know that they lose. So it is so important that we let the truth come out. 

And the other thing I just want to tell people out there listening is that you've got to pay attention to politicians’ actions on this, not just their words. They know how unpopular it is to oppose birth control, to oppose IVF. And so they are going to say words that sound like they do. But then when it comes to policies, when it comes to the things that they're voting on that are actually going to impact all of our lives, they are taking these extremist positions because they know it's necessary to get elected and win votes. So please pay attention to those actions, not just their words. Turn to us, we can help you navigate all this, because it can be confusing. That's the point. They're trying to confuse us. 

Rachel: Okay, well, we are going to take a quick break right now. And when we come back, we'll have my conversation with Amanda Zurawski.

BREAK

Rachel: This week, I'm talking to Amanda Zurawski. Amanda was denied the abortion care she needed in her home state of Texas, and she's turned that difficult situation into incredible advocacy. She's now the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against the state of Texas over the medical exceptions in her state's abortion ban.

Welcome to the podcast, Amanda. 

Amanda: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

Rachel: So some of our listeners are probably familiar with your story, but for those who don't know, can you share what happened during your pregnancy? 

Amanda: Sure. I'll try to keep it brief. Essentially, what happened was I had a pretty easy first trimester. Thought I was in the clear, you know, as far as miscarriage and things like that go, this was my first pregnancy. So I was pretty unfamiliar with all of the things that can happen. And just shy of 18 weeks, I developed a condition called cervical insufficiency or incompetent cervix, both of which are horrible names.

Rachel: They are horrible names. And I have one too. 

Amanda: Oh, really? You know, the more and more people that I talk to, the more I talk about this, the more I realize it’s actually somewhat common, unfortunately. But what it means essentially is just that I was dilating prematurely, given that I was only 18 weeks, the baby couldn't survive outside the womb. And at that point, normally I would have been able to be induced so that I could deliver the baby. But her heart was still beating. And so inducing me would have been considered an illegal abortion. 

So my doctor told me that we had to wait until either the baby's heart stopped or until I got so sick that my life was at risk, which is one of the only exceptions where a doctor can intervene in Texas. And so the latter of the two is what happened to me. And I went into septic shock twice. And almost, almost died, spent a week in the hospital and have permanent damage as a result.

Rachel:  I am speechless for a few different reasons. First off, I'm, I'm so sorry that you had that experience. My first experience with incompetent cervix is I was a little over, maybe not quite 24 weeks, but maybe I was, I kind of blacked it out now. And we made the decision whether or not to resuscitate our daughter because she was at the age of viability or at the stage of viability and we did. And for those listeners who don't know, she lived a week and then we, she actually was septic and we took her off life support. And with my second daughter, I had all this or cerclages and all this stuff. And then I spent like 18 weeks on bed rest.

But you talk about like you're, you know, septic. I was just reading an article this week about septic shock, not even related to pregnancy, but just how quickly someone can go from like kind of being fine, you know, not being well, but you know, and then just going to septic shock and they can die. Like a healthy person. And so that you went through that twice, my goodness. I mean, I think most people don't have a frame of reference for it, but it's something that's actually being talked about a lot. 

I mean, you almost lost your life due to the Texas abortion ban, and now you're such a strong advocate for reproductive rights. What was the moment that you realized that you had to do something?

Amanda: It happened very early on. I was actually still in the hospital. I had survived. I turned a corner. I was starting to feel better. But I was still in the hospital when my husband and I were talking about it and we just kept saying, like, we can't believe this happened. How is this our reality? We have health insurance. We live in a big city with great healthcare. You know, it's 2022. How is this reality? And we got to talking about all of the things that we had in place, all of the parameters that, that helped me survive essentially, like some of those things I mentioned, and we were saying, you know, for folks who aren't as quote unquote, lucky as me, like they're going to die. People are going to die. 

And so we started speaking out right away. Obviously we had no idea how much of a snowball effect this would have. But we shared our story for the first time 10 days after I was discharged from the hospital. And that's kind of what started everything and then it just kept growing from there.

Rachel: Well, because of my personal history and my interest in this topic you know, I have followed your story for a long time and I know a little bit about the courage it takes to speak out and, and the blowback. And then also combine that with such an intensely personal time and going through grief. So let me just say that I admire you so much for doing that. And I also think more women need to do it because people need to understand this affects everyone. And that's why what you're doing is so, so very important, but I know it comes at a cost. And I just want to say, I see that I recognize it and I really appreciate it. 

Amanda: Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that because I think a lot of people forget that at the heart of all of this is loss and grief and trauma. And it has not been easy, but you know, it's so important to me and that's why we carry on. We, we have to.  

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, if we don't, then just more people are going to suffer. And that's just the reality. So it's one or the other. And we don't want people to go through anything like this.

I mean, what is the current status of Zurawski versus the State of Texas? What, what happens next? 

Amanda: Great question. So it has been in front of the Texas Supreme Court since November. We first filed over a year ago, it was March 7th of last year. We had our initial hearing in July of last year, which we won by the way. And then unsurprisingly the state immediately appealed. So our injunction was blocked. The both sides agreed that it would be appealed directly to the Texas Supreme Court. So kind of skipping some of those additional courts in the middle and our lawyers both presented oral arguments, both sides in November, and now we're just waiting. We're waiting for the Texas Supreme Court to say whether we as patients even have standing whether we were actually hurt because that's what the state saying is that, oh, we weren't hurt. And you know, there's a couple…

Rachel: Wow.

Amanda: Yeah.

Rachel: I mean, of all the things they could say, that is quite a take that they decided to go with that one.

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's disgusting. For example, in my situation, they say I don't have standing because I very unlikely can get pregnant again. And so the ban no longer applies to me. Even though the reason I can probably not get pregnant again is because of what happened to me because of the ban that's in place. It's insane.

Rachel:  It is, but it's also really sad. I mean, you know, and again, I just hope that you take time to recognize that and to the absurdity of it. But you know that it's, it's just so wrong because sometimes I think we live in this world where we're constantly being told we're being gaslit. I mean, not to use that term, but you know, we're being told these things and it's not true. And you feel like you're the crazy one, but you're not. I mean, they're just trying to defend indefensible positions. 

Amanda: Totally. 

Rachel: So after everything you went through in the past year, now you and your husband have turned to IVF to grow your family, which I did as well. Many times. And I have one 13 year old, so it's been a journey, right? Cause I've done it many times. But with recent news out of Alabama, where extremists are trying to outlaw IVF, you've said you're worried about access in Texas. What did you do when you heard about the news in Alabama? 

Amanda: Oh, man, it was terrifying. It was heartbreaking. If you've been through IVF, you know that a halt in your cycle or in your services or in your medication is… I mean, it's just crushing because it can cancel your whole cycle. You have to start over. I mean, it, it was really scary, 

Rachel: It is like a very long process. So it's not, so when we say cycle and IVS cycle, it's not like a menstrual cycle. It is not 28 days. You have to go through, you have to take a shot in time that stops your cycle so you can begin the artificial cycle. And this all takes an incredible amount of time and you look forward to it and you're like counting down because it's hope and you can't wait to get started. 

And just to give you a frame of reference to our listeners, I missed my grandfather's funeral because I was doing an IVF cycle. It was either do that cycle or go to his funeral, but they couldn't both, they couldn't both happen. And I was extremely close to my grandfather, so that was a huge sacrifice. And likewise, when my dad passed away, we lived in Ukraine, which is actually the cycle that I got pregnant with my daughter. And here we are, like, he died suddenly, we're trying to go back, but also trying to get the shot that I would need to take while I was home for his funeral. So that we could start it on time and everything could go as planned because it's like this crazy thing to orchestrate.

Amanda: Yeah, that's what people don't realize. And so when I saw that, you know, IVF services were halted in the state for, I can't remember how long it ended up being. I think it was about 10 days, but people were saying, like, “oh, 10 days. That's not so bad.” I'm like, no IVF literally comes down to the hour. Like you do not have time on your side. You can not mess around with the timing. And so my heart was just absolutely shattered for all of those families that I knew were impacted by that. 

And then on a personal level, Josh and I are optimistic, we have two embryos that we're hopeful will become children someday, but you know, I, I was terrified of what could happen in Texas because the politics in Texas are not unlike the politics in Alabama. And so I literally ran downstairs and I said to Josh, “Did you see what happened in Alabama?” And he said, “Yeah, I was just reading about it.” And I said, “We have to get our embryos out of the state.” And so literally that day we signed the paperwork to transport them to another state where we felt they'd be safer.

Rachel: Oh my goodness. 

Amanda: Which that in and of itself is added layers of complications of anxiety, lack of control, fear.

Rachel: And expense. 

Amanda: Exactly.

Rachel: This is an incredibly expensive process and everything. And so I think another thing people didn't understand in Alabama is even though some of the physicians and the facilities were maybe waiving their fees to start another cycle, the big expense with IVF is medication and no one's going to give you free medication to start over and it is really, really expensive. 

Well, first extremists tried to tell you that you couldn't get an abortion and now they're telling you that you can't get IVF. You recently said at a Red Wine and Blue event that it's really about control. Could you speak more to that? 

Amanda: Yeah, I completely feel like my state in particular and other states with similar laws and bans are just trying to control me. and they, they, you know, masquerade behind this facade of pro life, but that's not what it's about because look, look at what happened in my situation, right?

I almost died because I couldn't get the healthcare that I needed, which by the way, that's what an abortion is, is just healthcare. That's it. So I don't see how that's pro life. It compromised nearly my life. It compromised potentially my future children's lives. And then on the other hand, you know, we're still trying to grow our family. We've been advised to use IVF and, and extremists are saying, you know, “We should be able to have a say in how you use IVF, when you use it, if you can use it.” It just feels like they are trying to control when and if and how I have a family. And it's not their business and they need to stay out of it.

Rachel: It feels like that because that is what's happening. It is about control and they want that control. They alone want that control. 

When we talk about reproductive rights, we often focus on access to abortion for unwanted pregnancies, but in your case, you want to grow your family. What would you want our listeners to take away from your story?

Amanda: I think what's most important is that when we're talking about reproductive rights, and we're talking about bodily autonomy, it's not just about abortion. I think people are starting to see that now with, you know, what happened in Alabama and IVF access, but it's not just that either. I mean, it's contraception. It's medication that you need. It's potentially surrogacy, which is something that my husband and I are going to need to pursue. And, you know, even if you're not of the age where you're thinking about starting a family yet, if you think these things don't apply to you, they do. They impact you. Everyone, men, women, all races, all ages, all socioeconomic backgrounds. And I really believe that extremists will stop at nothing until they have complete control over our reproductive rights. And you know, it's a really slippery slope and I just want people to be aware of that. Of how bad it could be if we don't fight back. 

Rachel: You're exactly right. I mean, I still encounter women, I live in Florida, I still encounter younger women typically who are not even aware of the restrictions and, and that's just like on straight up abortion. But it’s also other reproductive rights. So we have to talk about this. We have to talk to younger women and we have to actually expand it to talk about fertility treatments and, I mean, I'm not putting words in their mouth. It's right there. You can just show them in black and white. the things they have said about access to birth control. 

Amanda: Yep. 

Rachel: And you know, again, the best thing is just to show people and they can go and look at it later on their own, but it needs to be said because a lot of people are just so siloed or they're not checking the news at all. And they're not aware of what is going on. , 

Amanda: Yeah, and I think, you know, for folks, obviously Florida is not that much different than Texas, but for folks that live in quote unquote safe states, right, or sanctuary states where abortion is still protected, or at least there's not a ban… I don't think they realize that if Trump is reelected this year, this is going to be a national problem and you're not going to have access anywhere. I mean, he's already said that he's going to sign a national abortion bill and we see his allies mobilizing plans to further restrict us. And it can, just as quickly as Roe v. Wade felt, this can just as quickly become a national problem. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Yes. For everyone who was blindsided by the fall of Roe, you will be likewise blindsided by when they take away other rights and you, there will not be time to change it before it's the law of the land.

 Amanda: That's exactly right.And I, I'm, you know, I don't mean to scare people. I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but that is reality. 

Rachel: I say that like on a daily basis. I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but if you think I'm being hyperbolic, it's because you are not paying attention. And you know, that's not to be critical because we're all busy. We're all in our own lives. And this… it's like, I'm very personally affected by all these things or have been in my life and you are as well. So you're living it. But it just means that we have to be the ones to be the messenger and make sure people understand what's happening. 

Amanda: Yep. You're exactly right.

Rachel: Well, it has been so great talking to you today. I really look forward to this interview and thank you for joining us. But before we let you go, we do always like to ask our guests some rapid fire questions. So are you ready? 

Amanda: I'm ready. 

Rachel: Okay. What is your favorite form of self care right now?  

Amanda: Oh, I would say I'm a dark chocolate gal. I love a glass of wine and I love trashy Bravo TV.

Rachel: I mean, the amount of Bravo TV that got me through some of my darkest nights when I couldn't sleep. It's like Xanax, but not, and I just would check out. 

Amanda: Yes. Totally. Oh yeah. You gotta unplug. Gotta unplug. 

Rachel: Yes. What has been the coolest experience that you've had that's come from your activism?

Amanda: Oh, good question. I think it's, it's not just one experience. It's one that I have frequently, which is just meeting people. You know, while I'm out advocating or campaigning or, or whatever I'm doing, people often share their stories with me. And that's really impactful and just the connection and the community that I, that I've made through all of this. I've said before, you know, it's not a club that anybody wants to be a part of, but it's a pretty, it's a pretty special club. 

Rachel: Well, you just went to Disney World. What is your favorite ride there? 

Amanda: Oh man. VelociCoaster hands down, which actually that's at Universal. That's not at Disney.

Rachel: Yes. I live in Florida, so I know, yes, that is a very, very fun ride. So favorite Disney ride?

Amanda: Guardians of the Galaxy at Epcot. It's so fun. 

Rachel: It's incomparable, I would say. 

Amanda: It's like a party from start to finish. Yes, it is. It's so fun, the music. It's so fun. 

Rachel: It's really great. We're going again next week. We have season passes since we moved to Florida. 

Amanda: I'm so jealous. But it is the best, best ride. 

Rachel: Amanda, thank you for joining us. Thank you for taking the time to share your story with us. And thanks for joining us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Amanda: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

BREAK

Jasmine: Welcome back, everyone. 

Rachel: You know, I'm sure that was a lot for everyone to listen to, but I just want to express my gratitude again to Amanda for being able to share her story right now, because she's still in the midst of tremendous grief, but she knows how important this moment is. And she's not shying away from it.

And if we could just contrast that with the absolute cowardice we see from elected leaders that won't stand up and do the right thing, because they're so afraid that it’ll lose them votes, or they will alienate some group. And I'm not just talking to one party here. I think this happens all the time. But being willing to stand up and do the right thing because it's the right thing, even when there's a personal cost and there's a personal emotional cost for her, I promise you. I went through this kind of grief. It is devastating. There are so many emotions involved when it was your incompetent cervix, that's such a great name, that led to this in the first place. And I mean, there's so much tied up in this, but she is sharing her story so that people understand the consequences. And she is so very, very brave.  

Katie :Women like Amanda Zurawski should not have to speak out.

Jasmine: Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. 

Rachel: Yes. We are making a trauma situation so much worse. Cause like I learned there are a lot of women who go through this. I mean, it's, I'm not special, you know? I mean, unfortunately I'm part of a horrible club no one wants to be part of. And Amanda is also. But it should be a place where you can heal and you can, you know, just kind of like go, go through that and go through that healing process. And she can't because of this extra layer of trauma, right? 

And now she has, you know, she wants to speak out and do this. And we are making an already horrible situation so much worse. And there is no care and compassion. It just does not come from them. No one says “I'm sorry you had to go through this.” It's just beyond heartless. I don't have words to describe it. And I interviewed her a few days ago. I haven't been able to get her out of my mind. She was just on my heart. 

You are a hundred percent right, Katie. No one should have to go through this. And she has gone through so much extra that she should not have had to deal with. 

Katie: And one day, hopefully she won't have to. And we're grateful to her for doing that hard work. And we know she's inspiring so many others and we're all going to keep pushing together. Cause nobody can carry this alone and so that we can get a system in place that doesn't require women to retraumatize themselves by having to share these stories. Where we can have politicians step up and do the right thing to reform our system have just a tiny, tiny smidge of the courage that she has shown so that we can all be safe.

Rachel: Yeah. I, I, yep, I couldn't agree more. 

Well, we need to end on a happy note, like we always do. Jasmine, I cannot wait to hear your Toast to Joy.

Jasmine: So the session ended. And so that means that my campaign has officially begun. And so my Toast to Joy today is just to the fact that almost immediately, Like I'm talking about, like, maybe not even a full 12 hours after the session ended, I had people calling me, texting me, emailing me saying, “What can I do to help? What can I do to make sure that you are victorious in November?” And I just want to go ahead and give a shout out to all of those people who understand the gravity of what November 2024 is. And May here in Georgia, because we do have our primaries and our judge and school board races as well.

But to all those people, a toast to you. For, you know, really leaning in and being ready to do the work. I'm so excited to hit the campaign trail. But yeah, it's, it's just been, you know, it's really nice when you don't have to reach out for help, it just comes to you and people are just like, “Tell me what to do. Put me in, coach.” And I love that. So toast to you all. 

Rachel: It's, it's a good sign that people are engaged in April. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. All right. And now you, Katie, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Katie: My Toast to Joy is that I am playing organized soccer for the first time since I, I don't even think it was my twenties. I think it was high school. I think we're going to go back to age 17 or 18. But I've loved it. I've been the coach of my son's soccer team on and off, now that he's doing travel, he's too fancy for me to be coaching as a volunteer. But it is really just through playing with my kids pretty much every day that kind of reignited my passion for the sport.

And so, yeah, a bunch of moms of kids who have kids play together in the league got together and we have a team. We are maybe on average 15 to 20 years older than most of the people on the other team. So do we have a winning record? We do not. Have we had a lot of injuries and aches and pains? Yes, we have. But we're having some of the most fun, or at least I know I'm having some of the most fun I've ever had in my adult life. And you know what? Scoring a goal is just as fun as when you're a teenager. 

Jasmine: I can imagine. That sounds so fun. I would love to do organized sports. I just don't have the time, but if I did, I totally would do something like that.

Katie: These games are mostly 9 o'clock at night on weekdays!

Jasmine: Oh, wow. 

Katie: It's just like after bedtime, sneaking out, going… I, I'm not in my right mind actually doing this. It's like you're totally exhausted. You've done the whole day. 

Rachel: I could not do 9 PM. I'm just going to say, 

Katie: You can! I didn't think I could, but it's just the, the endorphins, the adrenaline. It is.

Rachel: Okay. I'll take your word for it, Katie. I'm still on my running kick. I'm still doing my running. So that's going to have to fill this void. 

Jasmine: I worked out this morning. It felt good. 

Katie: All right. Don't brag. 

Jasmine: Haha.

Katie: All right. Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Rachel: So yeah. It's kind of about running? Well, not really. But so I found this song. I guess I saw it on Instagram for the first time. And it's just my favorite song. It's Pitbull and Dolly Parton, like a remix of 9 to 5.

Katie: It's really good. 

Rachel: And it's called Powerful Women. And it's so good. Pitbull and Dolly Parton, y'all. It's like, it's so good. Those who know me, I'm kind of like, I need to add that to my playlist. I really like Pitbull. I really like Fireball. I always listen to it on my, when I run, it's on my playlist. And now I've added this song, Powerful Women. So yesterday I did my run and my trainer looks at my run and she was like, there was like, “One time you like ran really fast.” Or “Your heart rate went really up.” And I looked at it and I was like, “Oh, yeah, that was during Powerful Women.” I love it. But it's just like this tribute to women and the power of women. And it gets me every time.

Katie: I love it. Maybe I'll play it while I warm up for my soccer game. 

Rachel: You should! I mean, you really should.  

Katie: It sounds like a good pump song. Those 25 year olds are going to be like, “What is even happening? She's so empowered. Get out of her way.”

Rachel: Now you have to. Just take your portable speaker and do it. 

All right. Well, thank you so much everyone for joining us today. We're so excited to be back and we will see you again next week on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.