The Kids Are Alright, Right? (with Melinda Wenner Moyer and Gina Heumann)

On today’s episode, Jasmine Clark, Amanda Weinstein and guest host Beverly Batte discuss the struggles (and successes!) of parenthood. They get real about their own parenting conundrums, talk about mistakes they’ve made (and what they’ve learned), and chat about how to have hard conversations with your kids.

They’re then joined by Gina Heumann, a suburban mom with adopted kids who founded Trauma Drama University to help other parents who have kids dealing with trauma.

Then Jasmine sits down with Melinda Wenner Moyer - author of the aptly named book ‘How To Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.’ They discuss the research behind parenting and how to talk to your kids about racism, sexism and even screentime, to help shape them into honest, kind, generous, confident, independent, and resilient people.

Finally, Amanda, Jasmine, and Beverly raise a glass to eye opening television, inspiring parents, and the Real Housewives in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Do you feel like you could use some support figuring out how to respond to anti-mask, anti-vax, or anti-CRT messaging in your community? We invite you to sign up for one of our Troublemaker Trainings! They’re fun events where you can meet other women who are facing this stuff too and learn strategies to stand up for the kids in your community.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

Jasmine Clark: Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Jasmine Clark.

Beverly Batte: I'm Beverly Batte filling in for the incomparable Rachel Vindman.

Amanda Weinstein: And I'm Amanda Weinstein.

Jasmine: And welcome back to the Suburban Women Problem.

Have you ever wondered how to raise kids who aren't assholes? Well, then you're in luck because today's show is just for you. Later on, I'm going to talk to parenting expert, Melinda Wenner Moyer about her book, which is aptly named “How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.”

Amanda: I will have my notepad ready. I don't need three little assholes running around my house in a few years.

Jasmine: Exactly. And before that, we'll be joined by Gina Heumann, a mom of two adopted boys and the founder of Trauma Drama University. Looking forward to that. So Amanda and Bev, in all seriousness, we are all parenting through what can be considered unprecedented times. How do we raise good well-rounded human beings during these crazy times? 

Beverly: Well, let me just say I'm sorry Rachel couldn't be here today, but I'm excited to get to pinch hit in her absence. I am the Chief Content Officer of Red Wine and Blue, where I get to do fun things like executive produce this podcast. 

Now I know that I get tired just from parenting.

Amanda: It's exhausting!

Bev: Cause it seems like we were all raised, you know, I think of when I was being instilled my moral values growing up. I didn't walk out the door every day to see people in direct contrast to what I was being taught at home. You know, the Berenstein Bears did not cover this. So, you know, I think that having to constantly be having those conversations with my son. And, you know, my son is on the autism spectrum. And so we have to, you know, he's 10, but it's a different level of understanding about what's going on. Right. 

Having to… And it's heartbreaking too, because you're having to go back to “why can't we see this person,” and having to talk about the people and he's just, “I just wish those people would get vaccinated.” And I'm like, “I know buddy, me too,” but it's... It's exhausting to have to keep talking about other people's bad behavior.

Amanda: I mean, but that's an interesting point that you bring up because we're seeing kids acting better than adults right now. And I think that is a large trend. Even kids who don't like wearing masks, let's be clear.

They don't like wearing masks, but they do it. And they pretty much do it without complaint as far as I can tell. So when we see kids acting better than adults. And yet on Fox news, we hear this narrative that, “oh, kids today are worse than in the past, right? These kids are, you know, awful human beings and how bad are they? And they're snowflakes.”

And we just hear everything thrown at our kids and I completely disagree. So we hear Fox news. And people talk about, “well, the kids today in their hookup culture,” but the truth is fewer American teens today are having sex than ever before. Teen pregnancy rates have been falling and are now at their lowest level in recorded history. Yes, that means great grandma was let's say just busier than we thought.

Jasmine: Hahahaha. Right.

Amanda: But teens are increasingly abstaining from alcohol, illicit drug use, on all of these metrics. The kids are all right, and they're doing better than our generation did and generations before us because parents are working so hard to make sure our kids are.

Jasmine: Right now we are living in times where we are seeing and talking about racism and sexism and, you know, privilege. We're talking about all of these things and if your teen or your, even your younger kid is paying attention, they probably have questions about those things. I know my daughter does. 

My daughter notices things like the difference in discipline between students of color and white students. And she comes and she, she asked me about these things and she says, “mom, I don't really feel like that's fair. Why is it like that? And how can we change that?” And it's just like, me having to kind of explain this world and number one, explain racism.

And that's really difficult to give to my kid. But at the same time, I think that is important because she is starting to see the world very differently than I saw it when I was growing up. So I think whatever I'm doing, I don't know if I'm doing it right. But I feel like I'm doing something right here.

Beverly: I feel like you're doing a lot right. I feel like you're doing a lot right. But that just, that made me think of, you know, there's this whole, we're seeing this big takeover of the school boards, right. With the. Parents coming out. You know, we know that that's a well-funded world orchestrated outraged machine by Fox news, this whole CRT anti-trans…

But I have to wonder if it's not a little bit because the kids are all right and they're coming home and they're talking to their parents and they're being like, “hey, this is okay. Or maybe you shouldn't use that word. Matt Damon.” You know, all of these other things. And then all of a sudden, you know, mom and dad are at the school board meeting because they feel like…

Instead of maybe being reflective and questioning what their kids are saying or what they're saying or how the country's evolving –– being reactionary. Right. So I think they're really primed for that.

Jasmine: They're like “my kid is being indoctrinated to be kind and empathetic. This is horrible. This is a travesty.”

Amanda: And part of that is a change that we have really. For parents and teachers and how we approach racism and sexism, and that we used to have this idea of like, “don't talk about it and they won't be it.” And so this is a different mindset of how do we. Before they might run into something. How do we be proactive and teach them to stand up against things and teach them empathy, to understand, or to try and understand what it's like if someone has a different color skin than you, or is a different gender than you.

And for me, this is like this internal struggle I have because I'm also a data person. And there are studies out there that show that kids who are brought up in that, or are especially religious, especially Christianity are less empathetic. And for me, that's really hard because I still consider myself a Christian, but I also want my kids to be empathetic.

And the data shows if I bring them up in the Christian faith, they will be less likely to be empathetic, which I have a very huge issue with as a parent. So I struggle with how do I deal with religion and my children and empathy. And right now for us is they spend more time in this synagogue than they do the church, because the outcomes there are better for kids.

Beverly: I wonder too, how much of that, you know, I'd be interested in the data set on that, study it just to go how much is cultural Evangelicalism or Christianity versus actual. That's where I always think that the data gets a little weird there.

Amanda: I think the same thing, because to me, Christianity is about love and empathy and empathy with a stranger.

So to me, I don't see it the way it's showing up in the data. And this is where my turmoil, I guess, is my inner turmoil as a parent.

Beverly: Yeah. Well, and it's hard to, to just try to understand our own blind spots, right? Because we are all, you know, moms of children who are living through this world, but things are way different than they were when we were growing up.

Right. So we're still having to unlearn so many behaviors. And so then you have to go back and unlearn that with your children. I was thinking the other day about Consent. That is something that has been very important to me to instill in my child. And I would think it always had been, but like I said, he's 10 now.

And when he was little, I used to try to, you know, if there was a grandparent or somebody over, like, “why don't you go give that person a hug” and he wouldn't want to, and now we know of course. Probably had some sensory issues and whatever, but, you know, you would force the matter or you would be embarrassed that they wouldn't be performing to the stranger.

You know at the family reunion. And I'm Southern, so that's a big deal, right? You want to go give granny a hug and do the whole thing and whatever. So I used to literally get like annoyed with my child that they weren't going and showing affection to these other adults in their life. Right. And now I'm kind of like aghast at my own behavior.

Right. Because I don't think you should ever force a child to hug somebody else or be touched by someone. You know, they should have bodily, autonomy and consent and it's just, oh, okay. So I started off his life with this. We've talked about it since, you know what I mean? We've revisited how he's felt about it.

I mean, I get why that can also be so scary because nobody likes to be wrong. It's harder than to go to your kid and be like, “I might've thought about this wrong. I've changed my mind. I think we need to re-examine that.” And that is a very hard, very vulnerable thing to do.

Jasmine: Definitely. When I think about that, I think about when I was growing up and even when my children were younger, we just treated them as if they already had life figured out and they had way more control over things than they actually did. I have bad days. I have days where I'm in a funky mood, I'm just not having a great day. And I am in my thirties. Why am I expecting a human being that has only been on this earth for like five or six years to have it all together and never have a funky mood? 

It just comes with a frustration of trying to figure out another human being while also trying to figure out yourself. But I also think that there are more tactics now that we talk about more about like breathing techniques and getting kids to like, talk about their feelings and what's going on instead of just being like, “stop crying.”

Beverly: Right. Or do this because I said so.

Jasmine: Yeah. And so I think it's really important that we evolve.

Amanda: I think we're doing a better job as parents just understanding that we should have empathy for each other. Right. And that we're all dealing with different situations and different kids in different situations. So we started the process of adoption.

Before the pandemic and in the middle of the pandemic, we adopted our son Brady and he was two years old when we got him. So he had never lived with a dad before really. And this was something we weren't used to dealing with and didn't think about, you know, how that might be different. And so he was so excited to have a dad and just instantly loved my husband.

But he wasn't used to having a data at the same time. So when he wanted comfort, when he wanted to do everyday things like bath time and bedtime, he wanted me every single time. And that was, I think, kind of hurtful and frustrating to my husband when he was so excited to have this new son. I didn't know what a dad was like.

And watching this relationship grow between my husband and my son, which is different than any of our other relationships with our kids has been so wonderful and so amazing and very special.

Jasmine: I also love that Brady probably opened her eyes to something that you probably just never thought. This is what I was saying about us as kind of expecting children to have all the answers when we don't even have all the answers yet. Like we expect children to act a certain way because we're like, “I'm telling you to act this way,” but children are still navigating and learning the world. And I just, I've gotten to this place now where I'm like, “if I'm still learning, they're still learning.” And so I'm getting better about acknowledging that me and my children are all on a journey.

We're in different parts of our journey. Obviously I've been here a lot longer, but we're all on a journey. And so that doesn't mean that I don't discipline. It doesn't mean that I don't have to step in and be that parent sometimes. But it also means that I have started to open my eyes to try to understand why they are doing the things that they are doing. Just as a parent, I'm just finding myself, like, starting to think a lot deeper about like what my kids might be going through that they'll not saying out. 

Beverly: I wish you were my mom. Like if he could go back, if we could just redo that, that would be great to have like somebody with any level of understanding, but it is so amazing to see for both of you. I'm just amazed by your parenting and you’re inspirations to me. I just want to say, like both of these stories about your kids today, I've gotten me a little verklempt. I'm a little…

Amanda: I do feel I have become a better person, more empathetic person having each of my children in a different way. And especially with Brady, just because it helps me understand that kids just… You have to have empathy when it comes to kids and other people, because you don't know the things that they don't know because of their own upbringing, which is through no fault of their own. So I actually have a lot in common with our first guest today, Gina Huemann, because she also adopted kids who have some past trauma.

In fact, she founded Trauma Drama University to help other parents who have kids with trauma related issues. Gina, welcome to the podcast.

Gina Huemann: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Amanda: It's hard enough to raise kids who aren't assholes in the best of circumstances, but you're also dealing with a kid with some serious trauma, which is a totally different ball game. Right. So could you tell us a little more about your kids and the work that you do?

Gina: Yes. So my son is… both of my boys were adopted from Guatemala. My youngest, we discovered was neglected by his foster mom before we got him. So right away we knew something was off.

He was one of those kids that would throw huge meltdown tantrums in public. And, you know, and especially at home. His number one trigger was me. And that's because of the trauma. When a baby's neglected in that first year of life, the brain doesn't develop properly. And so when they cry and cry and cry and nobody comes, they learn to not trust others.

And then over the years, you know, we tried everything. We tried therapy of every kind you can imagine, you know, medication, different treatments, neurofeedback, and things like that. And he just wasn't getting any better. And now the more I learned about trauma, like I would love to go back and reparent him. But I can't, he's 17 now, and he's actually doing really well.

So we wrote our book and he actually wrote a chapter in the book of what it's like to be a kid reactive attachment disorder. It's actually the same disorder that Ted Bundy, what's his name? The Oklahoma city bomber. Yeah. It's a really frightening diagnosis. So they all have that same thing.

So we were trying to, you know, desperately not have him end up in prison someday. And now I have hope that he will be a productive adult someday.

Beverly: I have a child with autism. So I've also been on the receiving end of these public meltdowns. Right. You know, it took me a while to get in a different relationship with how not be embarrassed by what was going on in public, right. To put my child's needs first and deal with all of that. So have you felt judged by other parents out in the world when you're dealing with these issues with children, with trauma?

Beverly: Yes. And actually it's interesting. I, I, there was one day at target where my kid… We had spent exactly one minute too long in the store. And he threw this huge meltdown tantrum in the middle of the store, like clinging to the pole. And now he's eight. So I can't just pick him up and take him out of the store. Yeah. So I'm trying to get him out of the store. I'm leaving my cart behind and you know, some lady comes up to me and she says, “you should be ashamed of yourself. I raised six children and none of them ever acted this way. I can't believe.” Or she said, “you're failing as a mother.” And I cried the whole way home. I was like, “are you kidding me? Like, do you know how much therapy paid for I've lost four jobs?” I like, I, I didn't know. Oh, it was awful.

Jasmine: And unhelpful.

Beverly: I actually sometimes carry around. Starbucks gift cards with me. So if I see a mom like in target and her mom's or her child's having a meltdown, I go over and say, “I'm sorry, you're having a bad mom day, but have a coffee on me.”

Amanda: Oh my God, I love that!

Beverly: Listeners… Listeners worldwide. You know, if you are, if you're within the sound of our voice, please do that. That has been nicest thing. I have been, I've been the mom in tears. Give a helping hand to a mom in need.

Jasmine: Exactly. So Gina, I'm curious, you talked about how, you know, you got this diagnosis and so not only is that frightening, but I'm sure you just felt like I've got to, you know, I've got to definitely do all that I can to change what should statistically be the trajectory of my child's life. So like, what lessons have you learned about instilling values of kindness and empathy and a child that has had so much trauma and it's like manifesting in the way it was.

Gina: Yeah. You know, we did a lot, like we, you know, our, our synagogue does things like, you know, we have a day where we go work at a food shelter or something like that.

And so he developed pretty good empathy for a kid that has so much trauma. In fact, he loved to feed the homeless guy. So on the way to the synagogue, there was always… It wasn't the same guy all the time, but there was always a guy on the corner looking for money and he would always like pack a lunch for them.

And it was just really sweet.

Jasmine: That is amazing.

Beverly: It was actually your son, right. Who suggested that you attend a Black Lives Matter protest last year?

Gina: It was, yes. Yes. He does not like to be treated differently. And he does a lot of other people to be treated differently either. And you know, my husband's really good at modeling for him too.

Because he's a, he's a great... You know, he's always been very respectful and he's, he's into his whole family's into social justice. I mean we have a transgender nephew and, you know, nobody thinks anything differently of him and he's amazing. He actually transitioned around six or seven. And they came out in a letter to the whole family and they said, “look, you know, he's changing his name to Daniel. We're going to use these pronouns.”

You know, we actually got this letter after a soccer tournament. And so one of my kids was this, all, both of my kids, we thought were asleep in the backseat and I read the letter out loud. So my husband and my one son who was about eight years old at the time, popped his head up and he goes, “oh, that makes so much sense.”

Amanda: The kids are all right.

Beverly: The kids are all right.

Gina: He's also pretty amazing. He's one of the like child ambassadors for a group called Gender Cool. So he actually travels all over the country and speaks to. It's pretty amazing what his parents have done too.

Jasmine: I love that. I love that. It seems like you have really, really invested your time and your energy and your heart. And I love that because I think a lot of times people are hesitant to adopt because they feel like it's going to be too overwhelming or it's going to be too disruptive. And so I think it is very special.

Beverly: She’s very impressed with you.

Jasmine: Yes. Impressed by your tenacity and just how much you've done for your sons.

Amanda: And we're all going out and buying Starbucks gift cards.

Jasmine: All right. Well, thank you so much, Gina, for joining us and telling us about your family. 

Gina: Thank you for having me. It's been fun. 

Jasmine: Coming up after the break is my interview with Melinda Wenner Moyer about her book, “How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.” We have such a good time talking about science and parenting. So be sure to stick around.

Jasmine: Our guest today is a science journalist and author. She's a contributing editor at scientific American and the author of a new book “How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.” Melinda Wenner Moyer, welcome to the Suburban Women Problem.

Melinda Wenner Moyer: Thank you so much for having me, Jasmine.

Jasmine: There are a lot of parenting books out there, but I have to say that when I first heard about the title of your book, it made me smile. But I'm really interested on how you chose this title.

Melinda: So I think in a lot of ways, the title kind of chose me. It's actually what came first to me before kind of, I fleshed out the concept of the book. This was like three years ago. Almost exactly. Actually it was around the time of the Kavanaugh hearings and I was just getting like more and more frustrated and agitated.

There was just so much bad behavior that was getting rewarded or ignored. As a mom I just started thinking more and more about my kids. What were they learning from this? Were they hearing, were they seeing this bad behavior? Were they talking about it at school? What were they learning from it?

Who were they going to become in light of all of this? Like growing up in a world like this. And I realized that what I wanted more than anything else was to raise kids who would grow up to be good human beings. Like make the world a better place and not a worst place. So anyway, back to answering your question, I was out to dinner with my husband and I was like sipping some cocktail, but I, you know, I never got to drink cocktails.

I was like so excited. And I was like, you know, I should just write a book called “How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes.” And that's where it came from, honestly. And then like, I looked at my husband and he said, “I think that's your book.” Because I'd been wanting to write a book, but I couldn't figure out what it should be.

And then I went home and like immediately emailed my agent and was like, “I think I have the book. And I think I might even have the title.”

Jasmine: love that. I love that. So you're a parent just like me. You have a son and daughter also like me. I was just wondering as a parent, because I'm very busy, I feel like I'm like wearing a million hats. So what was it like writing a book about parenting? While also being a parent?

Melinda: It was really weird and really hard. I will say I wrote the book before the pandemic, so I didn't have to write it with my kids home. I actually turned it in on March 1st, 2020, which was kind of a godsend because honestly, if it had been due anytime after that, I probably would never have turned it in.

Throughout the whole process of writing the book I felt like my work life and my personal life were totally. And meshed like for a full year, because everything I was doing as a parent was kind of informing my writing and my work on the book. And everything I was learning while reporting the book was informing my parenting. And so it was just this like really disorienting and surreal process where like, I didn't know where me as a writer ended in me as a parent began. It was all just…

Jasmine: I understand that!

Melinda: …totally intertwined. And I also remember like learning all of these strategies that I talked about in my book and talking to so many researchers. Where it's on child behavior and thinking like, now I'm going to become supermom and I'm going to have like such amazing kids and realizing, like, that's not exactly what happened.

Like it took a really long time for me to really kind of absorb what I was learning and for it to actually kind of change my parenting in ways that made a difference. It was like a much slower process too, than I expected. So that was also like a little bit weird and the unexpected. Yeah. It was a strange year.

Jasmine: Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine, you know basically writing a book and kind of being an authority on parenting while parenting could be a very weird place to be. While you were researching for the book, were there any surprises or anything that you learned during your research that you were like, “whoa, I was not expecting that!”

Melinda: There were so many things I found in like every area that I researched and I, I like dug into a lot of different areas of research.

I was surprised by something in almost every area to pick up. One thing that I think was like really, really unexpected to me. So I, I dug into the research on self-esteem for the book and how self-esteem develops and what kinds of things shape it. I wanted to understand like how important is self-esteem for overall wellbeing and kids and what matters? Because to me, self-esteem, it felt like a really integral part of like raising like a good human being and you know, somebody who is like feels good in themselves.

And I thought that felt really important. So I was surprised to find this whole area of research that shows that the very well-intentioned pressure that we as parents sometimes put on kids to like do well in school to get good grades, to make the sports teams, you know. Which is coming from a place of love and a place of sometimes fear because we're scared that our kids just, you know, aren’t going to survive in this very cutthroat world, that that pressure is actually really, really bad for kids' self-esteem.

And, you know, I, when I was thinking of like, what's going to matter for self-esteem talking about grades and how kids are gonna be doing a school, didn't seem like it was going to be related at all. Like, it just, I was like, I was shocked by how much research there was on this and just kind of how nefarious that pressure is. Because I think it does come from like a really good place and I was surprised and concerned by how that kind of pressure can affect kids.

Jasmine: So in your chapter about raising anti-racist kids, you mentioned the importance of talking about race. So of course, as a Black mom, I don't really have a choice in talking about these things, like we are living them, but some white parents think that not talking about race is the best way to raise kids that are “colorblind.”

I know that's not really a thing… I would love to hear from you. Why is this idea of not talking about race, race, the wrong approach?

Melinda: Yeah. So white parents, a lot of white parents really. I think that not talking about race is the best way forward. And I think this comes from a good place. Like, there's this idea that if we don't talk about skin color, we don't talk about race, our kids just won't notice it. They won't make a big deal out of it. And they won't become racist, but we know from the research that kids, even babies, see race and skin color from the age of basically three months. There's studies that show that that babies will prefer to look at pictures of adults who share the skin color of their caregivers.

So they absolutely can see skin color. They differentiate it and they already are showing preferences at this young age. And the other thing that's really important to understand is that as they're growing up, they're like little detectives. They are constantly looking around the world, trying to understand what matters, like what are, what are the social categories that matter?

What are the things that I should be paying attention to? I mean, they see that only one of our presidents has been anything but white. And they see that, you know, generally speaking, like most politicians and people in positions of power are white. So they're very clued into this and they see, wow, race seems important.

And they're trying to figure out why is that? That white people seem to have more power. You can imagine if they're not given an explanation and they're not. About racism and the crucial role that racism plays in creating this hierarchy, then kids are going to kind of try to come to their own conclusions about it.

And the simplest conclusion is maybe white people are just smarter or better or intrinsically more powerful or something like that. And so this is kind of, this is the mental gymnastics that kids are going through. And if we, as parents and teachers, aren't there to give them the necessary context, they need to understand this hierarchy and that no, it is not because white people are better, smarter, more powerful, then we're doing a real disservice and we were actually like fueling the development of prejudice instead of preventing it. 

Jasmine: I definitely agree with that. So now I'm going to turn this and flip this upside down and let's talk about sexism. In your chapter about raising kids who aren't sexist, you actually conclude that not drawing attention to gender might be the best approach. So we just talked about like, why it's important to talk about race. So why is it important to maybe not draw attention to gender if you don't want to raise sexists?

Melinda: Yeah, this is, this is a kind of a confusing distinction and I, and I totally get that.

So with race, you know, kids notice that race is important in society, and then they come to the wrong conclusion about it when we don't fill in the blanks and we don't have conversations with them about it. With gender, one thing that's very similar is kids also notice the gender hierarchy that exists in society.

And so they're seeing like, wow, we've never had a woman president. And again, they're trying to make sense of that. And again, you know, they will come to worrying conclusions. Like maybe girls just aren't as smart or as powerful as boys. There's one difference though. So with gender, we are constantly hitting kids over the head with the idea that gender is a really important category and that boys and girls must be different in important ways.

And that's because of how, first of all, how frequently we refer to gender. So if you think about it, almost every time we talk about someone, we indicate their gender. It's built into the pronouns, and we also say things like that, man, or that lady or that woman, or whatever, like we are, we don't indicate their eye color or hair color every time we talk about them, but with gender, we do almost every single time. 

And on top of that, kids see that, wow, we have different bathrooms for different genders, different sports teams, different aisles in the grocery store, different clothing sections, even different McDonald's happy meals.

So like in every way we are, we are telling our kids, boys and girls are separate and they are different. And what kids take from this is, you know, “wow, gender must be like really, really important, or else adults wouldn't be making such a fuss about it.” And this combined with the combined, with the hierarchy, they see again, makes them conclude that, “wow, boys and girls must be super different and boys must somehow be better than girls.”

So what we want is to not overwhelm our kids with references to gender when gender is not relevant. So, you know, if you're just talking about a group of kids that happened to be girls, you don't have to highlight that they're girls, you could say like, “look at those kids playing soccer.” 

And also not like buy them really gender stereotypical toys, you know, just kind of like try to minimize the ways that we differentiate gender, but it is good to talk about sexism. And this is important because again, kids are going to make these conclusions that “wow, maybe boys are just smarter or better.” And what we need to do is to explain, no, they're not smarter or better, but sexism explains this hierarchy.

So while we don't want to make unnecessary references to gender, when we can avoid it, we do want to be talking about sexism with our kids.

Jasmine: In the book, you mentioned that one day, your daughter asked you if she could turn into a boy, because she thought that the only way that she could be president was if she was a boy. Are there differences in how we should raise our daughters to not internalize misogyny versus how we raise our sons?

Melinda: I think that we need to talk about sexism, both with our sons and our daughters. But maybe in slightly different ways. You know, so with girls. Interestingly, the research shows that a recognition of sexism and knowledge about sexism actually makes girls feel more capable. So when I was first researching, one of the things I was worried about was like, “well, if I talk to my daughter about sexism, like isn't this going to make her feel like the world's against her and isn't this going to make her, you know, less self-confident and isn't it just going to be bad?”

And what the research shows is really the opposite that when… so there was actually one particular study that I will briefly describe, which is there were a group of girls and half of them were told that the reason that there are fewer women in science than men is because sexism holds women back and, you know, women get fewer opportunities.

The other half weren't really given any explanation for why there are fewer women in science. They found that the, the girls who were told about sexism and were told, “look, this is the reason that there are fewer women in science.” Those girls then suddenly developed much more interest in science. And the idea there is that perhaps, initially they'd been thinking, “oh, girls aren't as good at science. I'm not going to be good at this. I shouldn't even try. This is a boy’s thing.”

And when they were told no, like it's, it's society, that's holding girls back. It has nothing to do with your innate ability. Then they were like, “F that like, I want to do science and nothing's going to hold me back.” And that really like empowered them.

So I think when we talk about sexism, you know, we need to explain that it still exists. It's maybe not, not as bad as it was, but it's still very much there. But that, you know, this is something that we can push against them. We need to push against. And with boys, I think we also need to be talking about the fact that sexism exists and maybe pointing out to them the kind of instances of everyday sexism that they might not recognize because it's just so much a part of our culture that they might just sort of think of it as normal.

With my son I often go out of my way when I see something happening or hear something or we're reading a book and there's something that just seems blatantly sexist to me.

I will like pause and say, “what do you think about that?” That's really interesting that there was a time when we were watching the Olympics. We were watching the women's kayaking and the male announcers were referring to them as girls the whole time. And I was like, “Oh, no, no, no.” And we paused it and talked about it.

Like, “do you think that they refer to the male kayakers as boys? Or do you think they refer to them as men?” You know, and we just had this conversation. So I think I think we need to go out of our way to like pick out those opportunities to talk about sexism and point it out with our boys and, and make sure that they can start to recognize it.

Jasmine: I 100% percent agree with that. And then maybe they can start to change it because they're realizing now that that's not the way things should be. So I want to pivot a little bit I'm a mom of a teenager, actually, two teenagers and I think one of the things that's always been kind of a source of anxiety for me is technology.

Everybody worries about kids and technology and like, you know, exactly what to do, when to do it. Are they on their phones too much? Are they being bullied online? You know, screen time, there's this, all these things. So what would you say parents should know about their kids and screen time?

Melinda: Screen time is such a huge category and there's so many different things that kids can be doing on screens that I think it's not always helpful to like, think of it as, as like one singular thing, like are screens bad or screens good?

And I do think that's the way it's framed and there's been plenty of like scary headlines out there that are like, you know, kids who spend more time on screens have… are more likely to have all these problems. But when you dig into the research, actually you don't find that screen time is itself is like linked with a lot of bad outcomes.

In fact, you, you really don't see much of an effect. And I think that's because like, there's so many different things that kids can do and, you know, watching like violent videos or spending tons of time on Instagram, you know, and feeling like left out and, you know, less than by doing it. That's very different from like, doing… creating an app like, or, or doing something creative.

My son like does some app that's like him building houses and it's like, super cool. So I think we have to be thinking about like, what are they doing? And how is it affecting them individually too, because different kids are gonna be affected in different ways. One thing I found really instructive and helpful from the research just as like a general strategy is that it really helps to be a mentor with kids when it comes to screens.

And that means like using screens with your kids and playing games with your kids. And when they come to you saying, will you get me this app you know, going and learning about the app with your kid and reading about it and learning to use it together. That's when we have the opportunity. Talk through our values and our concerns with our kids and kind of like teach them how to act online and what kind of behavior is appropriate.

Like these are really meaningful interactions that we have with our kids in those moments. And the research has really shown that the kids have these mentors who spend time on screens when they can with their kids, obviously we can turn all the time, get into much less trouble online than kids of parents who just worry about like limiting screen time and put all their energy into like enforcing limits. 

Those kids actually get into much more trouble when they do end up online, because nobody's talked to them about it and nobody's like had these conversations. So I thought that was really helpful. And I'm definitely as a parent now trying to do that more with my kids. And it's actually kind of fun. Like we're playing games sometimes and having fun as a family playing together and getting some, you know, getting closer and connected because of that too. So that, that was something I thought was really helpful.

Jasmine: I don't do screen time for my daughter all the time, but we do do TikToks together. I like doing TikToks with her because I can't do them by myself because I feel very silly when I'm with her. I feel like, okay, this is okay, I'm good. I'm doing this. And she gets the chance to basically embarrass her mom.

So now we're going to jump into some fun, rapid fire questions. Question number one. What is the funniest thing that your kids did while you were writing your book?

Melinda: Okay. So I got a report from the director of my kid's school one day that they had a writer come in for an. A school assembly and it was like a children's author and she read her book and talked about being a writer. And my daughter who was six at the time, I think raised her hand and said to the entire school, you know, “my mom is a writer too. And she's writing a book about kids who are assholes.” I don't know what happened after that. The school director was very nice about it. It was like, it was, it was fine. It's hilarious. But yeah, apparently that happened.

Jasmine: Wow. That's actually hilarious. All right. So have you binged watched anything lately?

Melinda: I am watching the chair right now with Sandra O, and loving it. It's like, it's kind of a hilarious. But also disturbing look at academia and being like a woman of color in a position of chair of an English department at a university. It's really great.

Jasmine: All right. Next question. You're on a book tour right now. What's been the best moment from your tour?

Melinda: So I did an event with a small, independent bookstore. And the woman who interviewed me, who worked for the bookstore, she said that my chapter on talking to kids about race really made her start to think about like her own internalized biases and inspired her to dig into a bunch of books on bias and anti-racism. And the thing that was so moving about, like her admission of this was, she was really like emotional. She started crying and I could tell it was like really hard for her to talk about, but she was talking about it and she was sharing this and it was just like so powerful and really rewarding to hear that the book had inspired her to do this kina of work. So that was really meaningful.

Jasmine: Awesome. All right. So now let's talk self care. What do you do for self care?

Melinda: I take a lot of walks and I listened to fiction audio books when I take my walks. Yeah. And in general, like reading, especially during the pandemic, I've gotten way more into fiction than I used to be, just as an escape. And I feel like it really helps my mental health.

Jasmine: I know. I love fiction too. I like like mysteries and like, I dunno, I just really enjoy. A good fiction book. So that is actually the end of our rapid fire questions. Thank you so much. Where can our listeners go to find out more about you and find out more about your work?

Melinda: The best place to go is my website, which is melindawennermoyer.com. I have a page about the book and links to buy the book, which you can get it really any bookstore. And also you can sign up for my newsletter. I have a parenting advice Newsletter that's like all rooted in science as well. And yeah, just like more info about me and my writing as well. Like my journalistic writing too. 

Jasmine: Thank you so much, Melinda, for joining us today on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Melinda: Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.

Beverly: Welcome back Jasmine, that interview with Melinda Wenner Moyer was amazing. I feel so much more adequately prepared to raise a child that's not an asshole. So I just want to say thank you.

Jasmine: Yeah it was a really good interview. I really enjoy talking to her and I really enjoyed her perspectives. And I also love that she's a science journalist. So that was like a plus just getting to talk about things basically from a scientific perspective, but also from a parent perspective. So it was an awesome interview.

Beverly: I mean you’re literally glowing right now. I feel like you guys should be besties. You guys clearly connected.

Jasmine: Yes. I know.

Amanda: Oh, I feel the same. Like you involve parenting science, right? Like, I am in. Yeah. And like, let's talk. 

Jasmine: Exactly.

Beverly: Speaking our language.

Amanda: All right. So we've got to end the pod with a little bit of happiness, a Toast to Joy, where we toast to just something joyful happening in our weeks in our lives right now. So Bev, why don't you start us off with your Toast of Joy?

Beverly: I have to be honest, everyone. My toast to joy this week goes out to the cast, well, truly every one of the real Housewives franchises. I was not a reality TV person for some reason, because of all of the Twitter talk about what went on in Salt Lake City with Jen Shah. She got arrested and the FBI like raided one of the filmings… Anyways, and I listened to a lot of podcasts where they talk about it. So just overall peer pressure from the media sphere. 10 years after this franchise started, I finally jumped in, so I watched Salt Lake City and I was like, “this has been missing from my life. This is everything. This is everything. This is chaos. I love this.” It has filled my life with so much joy. 

Amanda: We need that. I'm a big, so I don't watch Housewives, but I do watch reality TV and I do love reality TV. And you do need something in your life where you can like, not think about, you know, the growing inequality that is structurally in our economy. Right. And reality TV, that is my jam where I can just like, “yeah, this is great.”

Jasmine: All right. Well, I think I'll jump in with my Toast to Joy on that one. My Toast to Joy is going to be to the show Maid. And the reason why is because number one, I really enjoyed it, but I love the conversations that are happening surrounding the show.

Like how real it was to be like, “I have exactly $30. I am going to go to this grocery store and I'm going to buy these, you know, three snacks. Now I have $27 and then I'm going to go to the gas station and I'm going to put some gas in my car. Now I have $20.” And just like how people are treated… and it was, it's such a good show. So I'm really enjoyed it. I don't know if you all had a chance to watch it, but it's really good.

Amanda: Oh, it is on my list. So it's on my list. So I read the book Nickel and Dime, which is similar. I have not read… or I've not seen Maid, but it's on my list. And I love Nickel and Dime, which talks about the same thing. Like when you are living paycheck to paycheck, and not just paycheck to paycheck, dollar to dollar, like what this daily life is like.

And it was fascinating. So the book nickel and dime, I think it was Barbara, Aaron Reich. I might be saying her name wrong. I loved it. So it was definitely on my list. My Toast to Joy today, since we were talking about parenting and my brother and my sister-in-law are out visiting. And so they had a daughter, my niece, Katie who died from a rare brain cancer called DIPG.

And I swear this is going to get joyful. And so I also have a friend who has a daughter, Claire, who was battling DIPG as well. And I just want to do my Toast to Joy to those parents, because for me, it really grounds me as a parent. It really puts a lot in perspective, and I just have seen the amazing parents that they are.

So my Toast of Joy, even though I’m crying, it is joyful that I love these parents and they have made me a better parent and a better person. And they have made me really like hug my kid every day that I have my kid.

Beverly: I will have to say that you see that in them. But I also see that in y'all you two are amazing parents. And so like, please take that too into your heart. Like yes, other people are doing good things, man talk about needing a pat on the back for just parenting in general. So, you know, my shout out, all of my love to these parents that are doing a lot of hard things, but remember this too, like you're doing hard things too.

Amanda: Oh. So let me just also give a shout out to Carla and Chris, they have a website for Claire, big miracle little girl. And I would encourage all parents to find out more about DIPG and how we fund brain cancer. And this is something Congress decides, of how much we put funding into the cancers that kids get and they do not get a lot of funding from this. So this is something that super needs to change.

Jasmine: Thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. Next week, Amanda will be talking to Hala Ayala, who's running a really important campaign for Lieutenant governor of Virginia. We'll see you then on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.