Let’s Talk About “Late Term Abortion” (with Robin Utz and Ashley All)

Content warning: this episode contains frank discussions about abortion and the loss of a child.

Ever since the fall of Roe v Wade - or actually, ever since the Supreme Court opinion leaked - we’ve been talking about abortion. But so far we haven’t done a deep dive into one of the most controversial aspects: late term abortion. So that’s exactly what we’re doing today.

Late term abortion isn’t actually a medical term, it’s a political term used to scare people, and you’ll hear more about that in today’s interview. But before that, Rachel Vindman, Jasmine Clark, and Amanda Weinstein are joined by Ashley All. Ashley is the Communications Director with Kansans for Constitutional Freedom, one of the organizations that made this month’s abortion victory in Kansas possible.

Rachel then sits down for a very honest and meaningful conversation with Robin Utz. Robin is a mom, a storyteller, and an abortion advocate. She started a website to share her own later-term abortion story and to encourage open-minded and compassionate discussions about infertility and abortion. Robin shares the circumstances of her own abortion, the disconnect between right-wing politicians and most Americans’ views on abortion, and what we can do to help stand up for reproductive freedom. You can learn more at Robin’s website, DefendingGrace, or at WhoNotWhen.

Finally, Amanda and Jasmine raise a glass to the weather holding out for Girl Scouts and a great campaign video, and Rachel toasts to the brave women of Ukraine in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

On September 1st, Red Wine & Blue will be hosting a virtual Troublemaker Turnout event with Heather Cox Richardson. Come learn, get inspired, and commit to doing the MOST impactful thing you can do in the 2022 election. You can learn more and sign up here.

For a transcript of this episode, please email theswppod@redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 2, Episode 34

Rachel Vindman: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine Clark: I'm Jasmine Clark.

Amanda Weinstein:  I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. Ever since the fall of Roe v. Wade, or actually ever since the Supreme Court opinion leaked, we've been talking about abortion.

We've talked about it from a lot of angles– the Equal Rights Amendment, fertility treatments, sex education– but so far, we haven't done a deep dive into one of the most controversial aspects, which is late term abortion. So that's exactly what we're doing today. 

Late term abortion isn't a medical term. It's a political term used to scare people. And you'll hear more about that later in my interview with Robin Utz about her own late term abortion. And before that we'll be joined by Ashley All. Ashley works with Kansans for Constitutional Freedom, one of the organizations that made this month's victory in Kansas possible. I can't even imagine what it was like being a Kansas organizer when the news came in. 

And speaking of important elections, you may have heard that midterms are coming up. And countdown, they're only 11 weeks away. You can sign up for our Great Troublemaker Turnout at redwine.blue. 

Amanda: I think that was a sigh from Jasmine. Jasmine, are you stressed? 

Jasmine: I'm like, ugh! 

Rachel: How are you? How are you feeling about your election, Jasmine?

Jasmine: Oh man. I am… I don't wanna say nervous, cause nervous isn't the right word. But it is stressful. It's stressful because you know, it's hard when you're running against someone who, you know, is just not a good person for office. Their views do not align with the majority of Georgians. Their views definitely don't align with the area.

And so I'm running in a race that is just much closer than I feel it should be. I'm up against partisan map drawing, also known as gerrymandering, where people have the power to try to affect who gets into office. And so I'm in a very, very competitive race. I've always been in a competitive race.

But not just my race. I think about the other races that are happening in Georgia, like Abrams being tied with Kemp. Why? Like, Kemp is really bad for Georgia. Herschel Walker being tied with Warnock? Legitimately… how the heck? And that one's not even gerrymandering because it's statewide, but it's just like, are we listening to the same person? Are we watching the same person?

Rachel: Herschel Walker needs a translator to translate from English to English. And you know, all kidding aside, because I go back and forth about whether or not it's, it's okay to kind of comment about him, because I don't know if I'm dealing with someone that maybe has sustained brain damage or… 

Amanda: Which can happen to a lot of football players. It's a thing.

Rachel: No, absolutely. You have to think, like, if my family member was doing that, I would not allow them to be up there. And, and I mean, the fact that it's a close race just emphasizes and underscores for me what we're dealing with. We don't have a parliamentary system where you're saying, okay, I'm voting for a party and then they're going to have, like, their top people or whatever. That's not what we have. But that's the way the Republicans are voting and it's very dangerous. And it, it throws off the whole system that we have, but they are behaving like, I am voting for this block and I don't care who they are or what they think or anything about them. Just, they're gonna go be part of this party. And it's very dangerous. 

Jasmine: It's really dangerous. 

Amanda: I feel like we have, like, clickbait soundbite politics instead of conversations, right? We get this word soup and that's all you need. That's enough clickbait. That's why I'm gonna vote for, that's my guy, right, rather than a real conversation about what's really affecting our families, our communities, and we have to have those real conversations to get away from the click bait politics.  

Jasmine: But I think that's by design though, right? 

Amanda: It absolutely is. 

Jasmine: ‘Cause if we had real conversations, then Republicans would look really, really bad. It would not be 50/50.

Rachel: My husband and I talk about this a lot, not to get too much into, like– I mean you guys deal with this all the time. I mean, Alex and I are not running for office, but he helps people raise money from time to time. And you know, the reality is it takes a lot of, if you wanna make something an issue, talk about a lot of money.

I mean, it is so much money and the Republicans have people who, and I'm not kidding guys, they'll be like, “here's a hundred million dollars, can you make this an issue?” Because it takes a lot of money to make something an issue. And when I say make something an issue, I'm talking trans kids, I'm talking CRT. Those were all issues that were paid for by think tanks that people were like, “Here's money. You go make it an issue.” And it’s expensive. And talking about late term abortion, I mean, Amanda, you and I have touched on this a little bit, like… okay guys, I mean, this is like, not something I'm proud of, but I used to listen to Focus on the Family.

Amanda: Like a lot, same. I grew up on it. Rachel: Yes. Okay. And, and like, they would talk about late term abortion all the time. And do you know what it was? 

Amanda: I thought it was a giant pair of scissors that went up in women and I was like, that's horrible.

Rachel: Yeah, but I mean, you know, like this is something that someone paid to make an issue. I mean, they paid to make this, like, a thing. And this is all I knew about it. And you hear this and you're like, “My goodness, why would anyone do that? It is barbaric.” It is horrible, but you know, what they never, ever, ever had on the show is someone who made that decision and talked about why they made that decision.

Amanda: That's exactly right. So they don't get through what, and first off, it's clickbait. It's not a conversation because they're not talking about how she came to that decision. And what were the costs and benefits she faced?

Jasmine: Their story is, she's an irrational murderer.

Rachel: Right. Yeah. You have to keep the extremes. You have to keep the outrage. You have to be like Ron DeSantis, at an 18 all the time, always talking about the “woke whatever,” you’ve gotta feed that, feed that constantly, otherwise people are going to stop. Because no one can stay at an 18 all day long. Except Ron DeSantis. 

Jasmine: But like, speaking of Ron DeSantis and also extremists, so, Florida ruled for the 16 year old, who is ward of the state, that she is not mature enough to get an abortion, but apparently she is mature enough to actually be a mother! Which to me are two, are like, opposite ends of, like, my cognitive spectrum of understanding maturity.

But then it's like, you know, we have these people, these men, and some women, making these really irrational, illogical decisions for other people. And I'm just like, does it make sense to them? ‘Cause it doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. What do y'all think?

Amanda: I think it's ridiculous. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like, we don't want the government making these decisions for us. We want to be able to take the nuance, have the conversation, and I feel pro-lifers think that… so I have a couple friends and I've seen a lot of women share their stories, who had infants born with very severe medical conditions they didn't know about. And they have had to watch really, really tough things. 

And pro-lifers usually think they're gonna do a “gotcha moment” where they say, “But if you would've gotten an abortion, you would've missed that month.” And every woman who has ever talked to me, who I have ever talked to, goes right back in their face and says, “No, because as much as I loved that month with my child, I would give that month up so that that baby did not have to suffer the death I watched them suffer.” And it's never the gotcha moment that pro-lifers think it's gonna be, right? 

And this is a total “parent's rights'' thing. And then, oh, again, the parents' rights groups, Mom's for Liberty, excuse me, where are you? Oh, they're silent on this one.

Rachel: Well, they never experienced it. Because, you know, for a week I saw my daughter, Sarah, poked and prodded. She was completely uncomfortable because she should have been in my womb. And her skin was sensitive, I mean, she had tubes all over her and she was teeny, teeny tiny. 

Would I have given up that week? Yeah, I would absolutely have given up that week, even though it's quite special to me, and it gave me time to maybe mourn while she was still alive or to understand that were she to survive, she would have lots of difficulties and uphill battles. Yeah, I would absolutely give that up. 

And you know who I wouldn't listen to is someone who's never been in that situation. I just, I don't wanna hear from them. I mean, I think you guys would know how I would respond if they tried to tell me. I think you know me well enough by now. And what we don't have in this country is any assurance that medical care will be provided.  

Amanda: Or making a living! I have a friend who left college because she had a child and she said, at some point, “I couldn't afford it. And the only way that I could continue to take care of my child is if I left and got a job.” And she left college, like a few credits short and still bothers her today. And that we don't have the safety net for the type of things they do. And I don't see any of them advocating for, I don't see them advocating– 

Rachel: The opposite!

Jasmine: They advocate against it!

Amanda: Literally, they take away universal free lunches. Like what do you think this kid's gonna need?

Rachel: Wasn't it just Tate Reeves, Governor Tate Reeves in Mississippi, who was bragging about not expanding Medicaid in his state? And he gave back the money?

Jasmine: Georgia too. 

Rachel: I also think that, I mean, I, I just wanna wanna say it, even if we offered all those things– reproductive care, abortion– are a woman's decision. It’s their decision that they should be able to make. So even if we had free childcare, even if we had medical care, you know, all these things, it doesn't take away the agency that we each have over, for our body. The autonomy. 

Amanda: I think women know that because of our conversation. So for, I don't know if you guys are like, I know the birth stories of every one of my friends. 

Jasmine: Yes. 

Amanda: Right? At some point, right, it's something we talk about. And they're all different. I have never heard another woman's story who matches at all. So we hear these birth stories. We also hear about like, you know, crazy, my kid, you know, naps 20 minutes a day. That's fun. Right? So we hear these stories and how we have had to make different decisions, dealing with different things we face in a birthing situation with our children. So we inherently kind of feel it's woman's choice because we've had these stories and seen other women in our lives face different things in their life.

Jasmine: Yeah. We get it. We get the nuance, which is why I think when we have these conversations, women are more likely to understand, no matter what side of the aisle they're on. They're, they're more likely to be like, “oh, I cannot go to the extreme of just being like absolutely positively no.” Of course there are gonna be some women that will say, you know, absolutely positively, “No.” And that might just be because of how they were raised or the information that they were exposed to. 

But the longer you have conversations with people, you'll get that person that's like, “well, I'm not really for abortion, but,” and then the “buts” come in. “If it was my daughter and this happened to them,” or, “if it was a choice between me dying or, you know, delivering a baby,” like, then all of a sudden they get it!

Amanda: Yes! You just need one “but.” One “but” and you’re pro-choice. 

Jasmine: One “but.” That's all you need. Yes. And that's the thing.

Rachel: Yeah. You guys are gonna love my conversation with Robin, but first, I do have to say it's been, you know, pretty depressing lately. But then Kansas happened! I was on vacation and I woke up to this, like, I know, really like, amazing news. The voters turned out in record numbers to reject a ban on abortion. And finally, we had some good news! I was in London and everyone was talking about it. It was crazy. 

So we often talk about celebrating little victories, but this is a big victory and we're gonna celebrate it. Our next guest, Ashley All, helped make that victory happen as the Communications Director for Kansans for Constitutional Freedom.

Hi Ashley. Thanks for joining us. 

Ashley All: Hello. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. 

Rachel: We just wanna know, walk us through the night. What was it like working so hard to protect abortion rights in a red state like Kansas, and then see this victory come in? I mean, were you expecting it? 

Ashley: You know, I have worked in Kansas for 18 years, mostly on the candidate side, and so this really was my first experience working on an issue campaign or a constitutional amendment. And so it was a little new to me, but I am not new, I'm not new to election night jitters and just like, the anxiety that goes with that. So it was, you know, a little uncertain how things would unfold as the night went on.

You know, we felt good going in. I had my daughters in the hotel with me and so they were running around, but, you know, it was really overwhelming. I mean, quite frankly, I mean, we, you know, as it started coming in pretty early, things looked good, but that's kind of typical in Kansas. A lot, a lot of times big counties come in, more urban counties come in and that, it looks good for us. And then sometimes things can shift. And so by you know, I think it was like 9:30 when I finally let myself celebrate, when they called it. I wasn't gonna like, allow myself to celebrate at all too early. But at 9:30 they called it and yeah, I was overwhelmed, really overwhelmed.

Jasmine: We were all overwhelmed as a country, so I can't even imagine how y'all were feeling. 

Rachel: Yeah. We thought it was amazing. I have a question. What was the breakdown in terms of rural, urban and suburban areas? 

Ashley: So, we definitely, you know, really did well in urban and suburban areas, you know, I mean, Johnson County is a really good example. I mean it is suburban, you know, Kansas City. And so it, I think it ended up being somewhere around 70 percent. Yeah. I think you can trace that back to the messaging and the conversations that we were having with voters across the political spectrum who really, you know, may have had mixed feelings about the issue, but ultimately were with us on the core value, which is that women deserve the right to make that decision for themselves. And so really you know, some rural counties, we won some rural counties and some really interesting places. And so it wasn't quite as stark, you know, urban versus rural, as partisan elections tend to be here. Which was really encouraging.

Amanda: I love that you talked about the conversations you were having with people, because I think a lot of people discount the one issue abortion voters because– so I was, and my mother was as well, until you really start to talk about real women who have gone through these things and you see what it's really like, and you kind of get through some of the misinformation that you may have been told and like, my mom flipped, right? She is a hardcore Democrat now. She votes for this. And I feel like people, even this one issue voter, that it feels like you have no shot. I feel like we have more of a shot there when we had these conversations like you mentioned. 

So you also mentioned you had four daughters in the hotel room with you. So you have said that this campaign was for them. Why was this so personal for you? 

Ashley: So for me, I mean, obviously this is about abortion, and that is the core issue, but for me, I think just it's, it's more than that. It is equal rights. It is, you know, women being treated fairly and being able to make decisions about their body, about their future, about their family, all of that.

And I don't, I don't think I fully realized maybe until the leaked decision and then the Dobbs decision in June, just how, how it had shook me to my core, I guess. And, you know, waking up and being like, you know, my daughters are gonna grow up in a world where they have fewer constitutional rights than I did growing up, and that is absolutely unacceptable. 

And so for me, yeah, I am going to do everything I can, and I think that's a commitment I made when the decision came in June that I was gonna do anything that was asked of me on this campaign, to win, and that was at times really uncomfortable because I've always been on the, you know, I've always been behind the scenes. I've worked with candidates, I coach candidates to speak, to do TV interviews, to do all those things, but I've never really done a lot of them myself. And so I got really uncomfortable for a while doing television and I was gonna do it for them and I was gonna put it all, leave it all on the field.

Amanda: I love that. That's awesome. Because it takes away the opportunities, our daughters, like for college, for careers, it takes away so much from them.  

Rachel: I literally, it's like torture every time I do TV. But I do it. I mean, you know, I do it because it's important, you know. I don't wanna, I don't wanna be in this space, but you know, sometimes life you don't get to choose. And so I applaud you and I, and thank you for admitting that, because I think we have a lot of listeners who need to know this is a time when we all have to step up in all the ways that make us uncomfortable, but it is for something that's absolutely worth it. 

Jasmine: Ashley, I wanna ask, because living in Georgia and we have our own version of an abortion ban and we've got abortion bans all across the country. I'm just curious how y'all got to the point where you were voting on this.

Ashley: We had a really unique setup in this, in this campaign. So we didn't want to be voting on this. In 2019, our Kansas Supreme court found that there was a challenge to a law that had banned a specific procedure. And it worked its way through the court system. In 2019, our Kansas Supreme court found that people had personal autonomy, a right to personal autonomy in our Bill of Rights. And that included the right to make decisions about your healthcare, about your life, family, et cetera, including in the case of women, the right to, to make a choice about abortion.

So we had a right to access abortion in our Constitution. Obviously that then set off a chain reaction through the political part of, you know, the legislature, and conservative anti-choice legislators wanted to eliminate that right. And the first year we blocked it from being put on the ballot, but then the second time they were able to get it on the ballot.

And so they chose to put this on the ballot. They chose to put it on the ballot in August. and they chose the wording. They chose everything about it. A very jump, the shark move. 

Jasmine: I'm just like blown away that y'all were able to get this accomplished. 

Ashley: Yeah, no, I'm still in shock sometimes. But there were some really interesting stories that came out of it, you know, I mean, as we started getting towards the end, I mean, basically from June 24th, which was the day that Roe fell until election day, I mean, it was, work like I've never–and I've worked hard–worked like I've never experienced before.

I mean, just, I mean, everybody on the campaign, we had a very tiny staff and luckily we had a lot of coalition partners that were doing work as well, but all of us were just working around the clock and our field organizers were canvassing, knocking doors. I mean, I think we ended up doing more than 600,000 volunteer phone calls and knocked on I think, 60,000 doors. And that was just through our volunteers. 

And you know, there was a woman, one woman in a town called Pittsburgh down in Southeast Kansas who reached out to us on July 1st, like right after the decision, and wanted to be trained on how to canvas. Our Field Director trained her and she, and a couple of her friends, knocked on 1600 doors in that county and we won the county.

Amanda: Wow. Okay. I have to ask, what's your pitch, right? So are you like, “Knock, knock, knock. Would you like to talk about abortion today?” I am like, very curious about, like, your pitch, like even the TV commercial, right? You've got 30 seconds, right? What is your, like, opening line? Like, what is your pitch to get in there and have this conversation?

Ashley: Yeah, I mean, for most, I mean, we do target, so we're not sending volunteers to doors of people who are, you know, like hardcore anti-abortion. I mean, we, it's just not an issue you can do that on. And so we definitely, we definitely targeted where we sent our volunteers, but the conversation usually was pretty, you know, people were pretty receptive.

You'd go up and like, “I just wanna talk to you about the Constitutional amendment that's on the ballot in August.” And, and then the conversation starts and what you usually find, and this is kind of across the board when we've had conversations with voters, whether it's at the door, whether it's on the phone, is that most people are with you. Or most people have, like, some personal reason or experience with the issue. And that is, that is what I learned in this campaign is that most people don't see abortion as a partisan issue. Some of them see it as a personal, a personal medical issue. Some see it as, you know, a personal moral or religious issue.

But if you don't approach it in the typical partisan frame that we often have this conversation, most people, you know, are willing to listen. And really, I mean, who doesn't have some connection to somebody who's either had a, had a child? Had a, you know, had a miscarriage? Had, you know, some complication? I mean, everybody brings that personal history and experience to the voting booth, you know, regardless of how they may feel personally about abortion. They also understand that there are situations that people need to be able to make that decision. 

Jasmine: Yes. Oh my gosh. So speaking of that, because I love that you said this isn't, for most people, this isn't partisan, it's not a political issue. What lessons do you think, like, as a country, what do you think this means for the rest of the country? What can we all take away from what happened in Kansas? 

Ashley: You know, I think we've gone so far away from being willing to have conversations with people who are different from us or who may have different beliefs than we do. And what I learned through this process is that when you are willing to have the conversation and when you give people space to have, you know, differing opinions and, you know, maybe mixed feelings about certain things, but ultimately, you know, we share more in common than we think. 

And so for us, most of these people really did believe that women ought to be able to make these decisions for themselves. They ought to have, have the freedom and the constitutional rights to make decisions for themselves. And if you give people space to have their personal views and their, you know, complicated views, we can make a lot of progress.

And I think that is, that is true across issues. I don't think it's just this issue. I think there's a lot of issues that people you know, We really do share more in common than you know, than some of the partisans tend to, tend to believe.

Rachel: I love that. That is just, it's perfect. It is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Ashley: Absolutely. You guys gave me a lot of energy today. Thank you. 

Rachel: Aww. So now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we will have my conversation with Robin Utz.

BREAK

Rachel: Our guest today is a mom, a storyteller and an advocate for reproductive rights. She founded the website, Defending Grace to share her own late term abortion story and to encourage open-minded and compassionate discussions about infertility and abortion. Robin Utz, welcome to The Suburban Women Problem.

Robin Utz: Thank you so much for having me. 

Rachel: Can you tell our listeners about your journey, your, your infertility journey and about your daughter, Grace? 

Robin: Yeah. So my husband and I kind of quickly learned once we started trying to have a child that we had several types of infertility. So, mm-hmm, it took some pretty heroic measures for us to get pregnant with Grace.

It was about three years, two rounds of in vitro. Three rounds of II, if memory serves and we'd already had a miscarriage from one of the embryo transfers. So we definitely were feeling pretty excited when we got pregnant with Grace. 

We had had sequencing done to, you know, try to remove any known issues that would, miscarriage, mm-hmm, and she had cleared those hurdles. So while it wasn't for sure that everything would turn out fine, we had some really good assurance that everything would be good. And that we would finally get that quote, unquote, “take home baby” with her. 

Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know that. I know that term very well.

Robin: Yes. So when it, when it did not go that direction, It was pretty heartbreaking for us 

Rachel: And what happened?

Robin: So, we went in for our routine anatomy scan at 20, almost 21 weeks of pregnancy. Right. Mm-hmm, for anybody not aware, that's listening, that happens between 18 and 22 weeks of pregnancy. 

And, we had no reason to think anything would be problematic or wrong. We, you know, every test and scan we'd done up from that point was very good. And slowly the ultrasound just did not go that direction. We heard from the technician that there was no amniotic fluid and that she knew that that wasn't what we wanted to hear, which was kind of our first indication that it was something we didn't wanna hear.

We were like, oh no, this is, it's not fixable. And I Googled on the way to meet with the doctor and saw that it was 80 to 90% fatal and was just stunned and in disbelief. And the doctor confirmed that. I remember asking, you know, what are the, what are the chances here? And she was like, Oh, this is not good.

Like this is just, really bad. And you need to get into an emergency second level ultrasound with a high risk doctor, which we were very lucky and got into that afternoon. And there, after probably an hour and a half to two hours worth of ultrasounds, we officially received the diagnosis that was consistent with that.

It's called bilateral multis. Just plastic, kidney disease. And it works just as I described. There's no working kidneys, and without working kidneys at that stage of gestation, and with it being bilateral and affecting both kidneys, the lungs cannot develop. And when we asked the doctor what the chances were, she said, none. 

We decided right then and there that an abortion was our best option out of terrible choices. You know what, the outcomes would've been either that she'd be crushed to death by the weight of my own body without amniotics, mm-hmm, the way to cushion her. Or be born just to die within a short timeframe.

And we didn't feel that that was humane towards her. And so that's when we ran into the legal hurdles, however we quickly learned, we didn't really have much time to decide. We had to make a decision within the next seven days. And in Missouri, where I live, at that time, you had to sign consents that were state mandated, not medical, you, after those consents, had to wait 72 hours minimum and you had to get it done before 21 weeks, six days pregnancy.

And I was at 20 weeks, six days, and Thanksgiving was the next week. So we were in a real bind. And again, just so lucky because we lived in St. Louis, we could get that second level ultrasound immediately, and they got us into those consents the next day by pulling some major strings. So what was the worst experience of our lives was actually so lucky because, what if we lived in a more rural part of Missouri, or couldn't get in that fast, or didn't have the money for this procedure? Sure. Or didn't have health insurance or healthcare pay time off work? 

Rachel: So, I really relate to that a lot as well because our daughter, Sarah, who passed away, I think about all the luck that was involved because she was born at a hospital.

One of the best NICU in the whole country. And she didn't survive because she was born too early. She couldn't survive. So there was no, you know, taking that out. So I understand, like, that is a blessing in and of itself. I mean, all the things you describe because you know, this is the only option that you have.

It wasn't as if, like, as it was a, you know, a series of catastrophic, you know, failures or missteps or, you know, unfortunate circumstances and could have had a different outcome. This was, everything was fine, but this was always going to be the outcome. 

So I. There are so many misconceptions about late term abortion, which I'm gonna tell you I, I used to listen to talk shows and I used to hear this term all the time. It is not a medical term at all. Mm-hmm. It is a political term meant to scare people and really misinformed people from the outset, from the name. What do you wish people, more people you understood about late term abortions?

Robin: Like you’re, you're completely right about the term. You know, I tried to say abortion later in pregnancy or later abortion or second trimester abortion, which is what I had. And I really tried to use the term abortion as well. For a long time, I called it a “termination for medical reasons.” And so what, what I've learned is that, you know, it's important to use the word, right, as you just did, because that's what's being legislated against and that they happen for two reasons, for the most part either. people learn new information, like we did that, you know, a very wanted pregnancy, it has a fatal fetal condition, or sometimes it's that they're pregnant in the first place.

You know, the idea that people know when they're pregnant right away is a major fallacy, it’s much more common than people think that you might find out you're pregnant later, 

Rachel: Which is very weird to both of, as people, yes. We knew like, the second. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but, but it definitely happens. 

Robin: Yes. It definitely happens. I have a friend that had a five-month abortion because she had an IUD and had failed. She had no idea she was pregnant. 

Rachel: Mm-hmm but I mean, isn't that the thing though, it's strange to you and me, but we both recognize it happens. It's not been our experience, but yet we can also understand that it happens.

And I think that's what gets so lost because there's so many people out there who, is, “well, that's not my experience.”

Robin: Like there's this whole idea of armchair quarterbacking other people's major decisions that’s so inappropriate to me, and so conflicting with the idea of conservatism cause it's like, you want small government, but then you wanna tell me how to run my medical decision. 

Rachel: Yes. You've been very open about your abortion. And I imagine you've heard a lot of feedback from both sides, as you said, you know, people who are second guessing you, from people attacking you and calling you names, too. You know, probably gratitude from women as well, I can imagine, who've been through similar things.

What has it been like to be so public about something that's incredibly polarizing? 

Robin: Oh, there are kind of two parts to it. One, it's felt very, it's something I’ve hold so firmly to my heart that I'm like, I know what I did was right for my family. Yeah. And it's very firmly. What I agree was right, for my, for my very wanted daughter, I think if she could have existed and said, like, this is what I would want, that she would want, what we did was, mm-hmm, you know, to spare her.

And so, I kind of fearlessly tell it because I've got such strong conviction behind my beliefs. And for the most part, people are actually really nice about it. You know, a lot of people will be like, well, it should, you should have an exception, you know, you're, in your case, that's not really an abortion.

And then it's a real teaching moment to be like, one, there aren't exceptions, two, nor should they. Everyone's reason is private and personal. And if you approve of my abortion, you approve of anybody's abortion because it is the same. I started sharing and then testifying and getting involved. I'm a board member for the Missouri Abortion Fund.

I helped with a referendum trying to do a citizen's initiative petition, you know, after we had an eight week ban, mm-hmm, put in place in Missouri, and throughout all of this, it has been this very radicalizing contrast. People, even very evangelical Christians, supporting me. My provider's providing me with amazing care, the world in general, I still get weekly, at least, emails from doing my Moth Mainstage, people saying they heard it, and that they're so grateful that they found somebody else that had their experience…. to how our elected officials have treated me. I have had a State Senator play with his phone and play with his pen while I testified next to him about the most heartbreaking experience of my life. I watched our Secretary of State unconstitutionally block that citizen's referendum to the point that we sued and won. 

And so the contrast of how the vast majority of, you know, our world agrees that this, you know, that abortion rights are valid and that they support them and not to have abortion bans, compared to how specifically the GOP elected officials treat me, show me that they do not care about the popular will of the people and that they will do anything to circumvent and to keep power, no matter how shady it is.

Rachel: Oh, I think they're getting ready to find out, Robin. I'm here for it. I don't know why they're pursuing this. I really don't. I think about it all the time. We live in a democracy and they're supposed to represent the people's views. And it's just not. I mean, all the polling indicates that, and Kansas' vote also indicated that. Kansas was a very big wake up. 

You mentioned on Facebook that the doctor who performed your abortion was Dr. Caitlin Bernard, who has been in the news this year because she was the doctor who performed the abortion on the 10-year-old in Ohio. What was your experience with Dr. Bernard? Were you surprised to see her in the news? 

Robin: So I do have to clarify, she went over my consent, so state mandated consents, with me. And at that point, the law did not require her to, also before my abortion, although that switched the next year. But she had a huge impact on me. 

I will never forget walking in, you know, it's the day after we've received this news, we were kind of like, “Why do we even have to be here signing these consent forms?” And Dr. Bernard did a wonderful job of setting the tone and saying, you know, “These do not represent how we feel about you. We trust you.” And she spent a couple of hours with us down to, you know, we debated what we wanted to do with Grace's remains. Did we wanna, you know, have them cremated and get them back or not. And we changed our mind halfway through and she so compassionately was there for whatever we wanted. She truly came from a place of “Whatever you wanna do with this news, we're here to support you with it non-judgmentally and with compassionate care.” 

And so I subsequently testified with her against some bills. I was stunned of course, to see her in the news, but also not, because she is a person that will stand up for compassionate complete care no matter what. And I'm very proud to know her and was thrilled to get to personally thank her for that moment and for again, for the care for me. And she's just, she really changed our lives with that care and helped set the tone for, “you're about to go through something the state wants you to feel badly about, and you should not feel badly about this.”  

Rachel: Oh, I love that. Being so brave to say that. You know, it's, it's actually difficult and, and at times even dangerous to be an abortion doctor. Have you heard anything from doctors? You know, have they, have they shared with you how we can support them for you know, providing this for us? Because they don't have to. 

Robin: They don't. We need providers badly. I mean, Dr. Bernard, when I talked to her, said that she's been receiving death threats. And I know other doctors that have been tailed and have to take different routes home every day because of the threats.

They're very real threats and the best thing we can do, I think, for them is to fully and open throated in our support for abortion rights. And to say that we support abortion rights, that these providers do not deserve to have their lives threatened because they're providing basic human rights and healthcare. You know, just do whatever we can to reduce the stigma around abortion. 

Also maybe a little bit more of a concrete action is support and maybe consider becoming a clinic escort. This helps patients, but also does help the providers. There are some very vile anti-abortion protestors that stand outside of clinics and try to confuse abortion patients, or just patients going in for a mammogram.

When I saw January 6th go down, I was like, “Well, I've seen these people before, they're outside of abortion clinics harassing and terrorizing patients.”

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. That's the M.O. That's what they do is to harass and terrorize people. 

Robin: Yeah, but they really do mean business in some ways, and they're very dangerous, and so we need to take them seriously and stop being silent about our support for abortion.

Rachel: Yep. I completely agree. With the fall of Roe, obviously we're all terrified about what that means for our reproductive freedom. We talk about the importance of the midterm elections in November, we talk about it all the time, but what else can we do besides getting everyone to vote? What else can our listeners do to support reproductive rights right now? 

Robin: Yes, midterms are very important, but we can't count on these laws to protect us. What is legal is being redefined right now. What if they decide that you know, a bounty law where you can't even leave the state you live in to go get an abortion in another state is legal? You know, the Supreme Court is deciding a lot now. 

So the idea of helping fund abortions for other individuals. Abortion fund donations and volunteering and so on is really, really important. Also mutual aid in the terms of helping people get transportation to abortion appointments, help with Uber gift cards, with hotel gift cards, grocery gift cards. And obviously not everybody has all of the money in the world, and so, you know, but these are wonderful places to donate. 

And then also again, reducing stigma as much as you can by talking about abortion. I mean, if you don't wanna talk to your grandmother about it, you can certainly talk to the cashier, the grocery store about it, or your hair stylist or your friends. You can get a bottle of wine and be like, “Hey, come over. Let's read the Turnaway study, which is about the outcomes of people that have abortions and they're overwhelmingly positive. That it's been life changing, like, good healthcare. And talk about the things we wanna do to support abortion.”

Finally, writing op-eds and letters to the editor. I heard recently that 80% of letters to the editor are white men. And it's very important to be, in some way, challenging these anti-abortionists that get a lot of media time, unfairly, and that stigma reduction costs no money. And it just takes a little bit of bravery. And I have to tell you every time I've had that conversation, people at least walk away thinking about what I've said.

Rachel: That's it! That's it, Robin. That is what we have to do. You don't have to change their minds right then, but you're giving them something to think about. And someone else might give them something to think about. They could find another news source. They could see it in a different light. So when they're reading something, they've met you and heard your personal story. So the next time they hear something, rather than believe it through the filter , what they've always been taught. 

There's maybe a little bit more compassion there because you shared your story and you spoke out and it wasn't what they were always taught. And I have to say, I heard absolutely horrible things about second and third trimester abortions and how they're performed. But what the other side doesn't ever talk about is why women make this decision. 

Robin: And I will add, there's a website called Who Not When that talks about later abortion from a fellow advocate. After the debate with Trump and Hillary Clinton, where they talked about later abortion right before the 2016 election, I was like, “well, I don't know why people get later abortions.” I think that's something missing in our society, is that when you don't know something, just be curious and go see what you can find. 

Rachel: Well, we, we’re gonna put that in the show notes, but for now, we do like to end all of our interviews with some rapid fire questions. So are you ready? 

Robin: I'm ready. 

Rachel: Okay. What song instantly puts you in a good mood?

Robin: Probably Tom Petty's Here Comes My Girl because my husband played that when our now living daughter, we have a little girl named Hannah named after Grace, and he played that when we were starting the C-section. I had to have a C-section to have her. And so the very first song he played while we were delivering her was Here Comes My Girl.

And he was so excited. So every time I hear it, I think of finally getting to have that living child.

Rachel: My take home baby has, sorry, she has the same middle name as my Sarah. So they both have the same middle name. Oh, which is Abigail. And it means, Father's Joy. 

Robin: Oh, that's beautiful. 

Rachel: Sorry. No crying. 

Robin: I can't promise that. 

Rachel: So, you're a main stage storyteller with The Moth, which is a group dedicated to the art of storytelling. Who's another storyteller with The Moth that we should all check out?

Robin: I would say David Lit, he was an Obama speech writer who wrote the book Thanks, Obama. And he has since written a book about democracy and how we can all play a part in what we can do to change it, and how it's working or not. And his story is very funny, but also I've learned so much from him in the process of my own advocacy and, you know, the ways that we affect change, because as somebody that became an advocate right after Trump took office, it has been a real experience of… “the beatings will continue until morale improves.” I'm sure that you can relate in a lot of ways to what I'm saying. And so he gives me some hope. 

Rachel: I like that. Okay. I'm gonna have to check that out too.

So who is your first celebrity crush?  

Robin: The first one I really remember, and it's still, my celebrity crush is Paul Rudd because he hasn't aged since that crush developed.

Rachel: Haha, yes. Summer is almost over, but we have a few weeks left. What is your favorite thing about summer?

Robin: Swimming. I love swimming. I really do. And my daughter, we finally got the pass to the local pool and she's getting so much independence there because you know, it's got a lot of shallow water pools for her and we have the best time swimming with my husband, too. So that's absolutely my favorite part of summer. 

Rachel: Aw. Okay. What is the best thing about your hometown? 

Robin: You know, what's so funny. So, I live in St. Louis. I've lived here my whole life other than college, and it's a great town and I, we think right now about whether we need to move or not, for Hannah's sake.

Rachel: Yeah. 

Robin: Yeah. But I love St. Louis. It's a wonderful town with, you know, it's a small big town. And there's so much to do here. We have wonderful arts and sports and good schools and a real sense of community. And so like, I love playing tourist in my own hometown and it's got a ton going for it. And I feel like we are getting forgotten as part of a red state. I think a lot of red state progressives are getting kind of dismissed right now by blue states that are like, “oh, this state's lost and forgotten.” I'm like, “whoa, you can't forget us. We got here cause of this, we need your support. We need your help.” And so I'm torn on that. I do feel like it's a place with a lot of potential to really assume its greatness and we've got some people really working on that.

Rachel: Well, that's a perfect note to end on. That is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find more about you and your work? 

Robin: So I started a webpage called Defending Grace, you know, after my daughter. I had a Washington Post op-ed that I was like, ah, I need to direct people somewhere. And so I created that website, but really, social media off links from that. So, you know, Facebook has a Defending Grace page. Twitter has, you know, I'm @defending_grace on Twitter. Those are kind of the places I'm active most. 

And they've been a little quiet just as I've figured out my post-Roe role in things, but more is definitely coming soon. I've been submitting some op-eds and I definitely have some real thoughts around the way people can help. Yeah. And where we're going next and where the opportunities are. 

Rachel: Well, it has been so great talking to you, Robin. Thank you so much for stopping by The Suburban Women Problem.

Robin: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.

BREAK

Jasmine: Welcome back everyone. So, Rachel, first I just wanna say that interview between you and Robin was, I think the word that I would use is powerful. It takes a lot to tell your story, especially when the narrative around that type of abortion story has always just been so negative. And so I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that it's not easy to talk about something that everyone has essentially demonized.

Or I, well, I won't say everyone, I will say politicos and talking heads have politicized. To that point, I also liked how y'all talked about how there is a disconnect between, like, what the talking heads say and what the media tells you everyone thinks about this, but then, like, the everyday person that she would actually tell her story to, they were actually a lot more sympathetic to what was going on.

Rachel: One thing that I haven't been able to stop thinking about is when she said she watched for the 2016 election and she was thinking, “why would anyone have a late term abortion? Why would they even do this?” And then she had to have one.

But that's all of us in so many situations. We always think we would never do something, and then life happens. And I mean, my goodness. How many times have we said something in marriage, in parenting? I mean, all this stuff, you know. I was much better at parenting before I actually had children. 

Jasmine: Oh, I, me too.

Rachel: And probably I was a much better spouse before I actually got married. But it is imperative that we see people as people. And that's why we have to, you, get out of our comfort zone, have conversations with everyone in our community so that we can first see them as humans and realize this is not someone who's, who's just doing something for, you know…  

Jasmine: All the things that they say that people do it for.

Rachel: Yeah. Right. Like, “I know this person, that's not who they are. And if they're saying this, I should listen to them.” 

So, as you all know, we like to end our episode with something happy, our Toast to Joy. So, Amanda, what is your Toast to Joy this week? 

Amanda: So my Toast to Joy is we had a fun, full day. We had a Girl Scout Jamboree, and it was like a full day of badges and a lot of craziness. So I have to give a big shout out to all the organizers of this who dealt with, like, “It's gonna rain, it'd be an epic storm. Like, oh no, it's not.” 

Jasmine: Oh my gosh, I had a similar story. I love this.  

Amanda: It was just crazy, but it was a lot of fun and it's fun to get out there. And I noticed a lot of the girls, I asked them, like, “What was your favorite part of the day?” And we had a lot of moms there to go to do the day with us too. And all of them said their favorite part was just spending time with mom. So it was super cute. It was fun to get away and have some one on one time with all the daughters. And it was a lot of fun. 

All right, Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy?

Jasmine: So, mine is a little similar in the weather part of the situation. So this weekend I shot my campaign video and actually, this is my third time running for office but this is my first time having a full blown camera crew, you know, photographer and producer campaign video. We shot for eight hours. It was a long day, but it was so fun.  

But the interesting thing about all of this is that we planned this out and you know, the saying you can plan a pretty picnic, but you can't predict the weather? Friday, the forecast basically had it thunderstorming for the entirety of the day. 70% chance of thunderstorms, not just rain, but full blown, like, storms. And we had planned this thing outside because it's easy to do these things outside. Number one, ‘cause you don't have to, like, rent a building and all that stuff. And I mean, outside is pretty. And I had all these volunteers showing up and so I was like, oh man, I wonder if the volunteers are gonna come now that the forecast is so bad. I wonder if the weather is even gonna hold up. It literally did not rain until 5:01 PM. We filmed. 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM. And the first raindrop fell at 5:01 PM. I kid you not. 

Amanda: Aww. When we did a video last time, I'm not, I don't wanna call anyone out, but Casey's campaign manager–and it might have been also Casey–they were like, “oh, by the way, the camera crew's coming in an hour, are you and your family gonna be ready?” And I was, “A little more time would be nice for the family to get ready to be on camera and be on TV, but, okay. Yep. I can get us ready in an hour. Sure, sure. I would love to do that.” 

And this time his campaign manager told me weeks in advance and didn't even tell Casey. She was like, “Hey, Amanda. Casey might forget so I just wanna make sure it's on your radar. The camera crew will be here at this time. So you have this many weeks to schedule it out. Here's some suggestions for what to wear.” And I was like, “oh, I love you. Oh, wow. That's very helpful.”  

Jasmine: I know. All right. So, Rachel, what is your Toast to Joy this week?

Rachel: Well, we do have a new puppy and he is amazing and I love him. His name is Loki. But he's not my Toast of Joy. 

Amanda: He's like, side note. 

Rachel: My actual Toast to Joy is that my husband spent a week in Ukraine and he has left the combat zone. And that’s also not my Toast to Joy, but to all the women of Ukraine who have sent their sons and their brothers and their husbands to fight for Ukraine sovereignty for their country.

I had only a taste of what a week of that. My husband was not in combat, although I, I do know that feeling, I have known that feeling, but you know, they've been going through this for six months. So my Toast to Joy is to all the brave people of Ukraine, but to the women who shoulder that in such a unique way. Actually many women are fighting as well, but to those who are holding down the fort at home and keeping a smile on their face and trying to keep normalcy for the ones left behind. So, again, Slava Ukraini, glory to Ukraine, glory to the heroes. That is my Toast to Joy. 

Jasmine: I love that. 

Rachel: Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone. You know, these conversations are so important, especially when it comes to deeply personal topics like later term abortion, and the closer we get to the midterms, the more important those conversations.

So, thanks again. And we'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.