Saving Reproductive Rights, One Brunch At A Time (with Angela Vasquez-Giroux and Rep. Dr. Anita Somani)

One Trump-appointed judge in Texas is likely about to ban an abortion pill used by millions of Americans. And the ban won’t just affect women in Texas… it’ll affect all of us across the country, even in blue states. The ruling was expected to be released as early as Friday the 24th, so we wanted to make sure we talked today about this case and why it’s so important. This isn’t the first attack on our reproductive freedoms, and it won’t be the last, which is why it’s so important to pay attention and to talk to our friends. We're saving the world, one brunch at a time!

We’re joined by Representative Dr. Anita Somani, who shares her wisdom and knowledge both as an OB-GYN and a state representative in Ohio. Dr. Anita talks about why this ban is dangerous, what we can tell our friends and neighbors about the pill, and how reproductive rights inspired her to run for office. And after that, Amanda sits down with Angela Vasquez-Giroux of NARAL Pro-Choice America. Angela and Amanda chat about what exactly is going on with this case in Texas, what we can do about it, and what gives her hope.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to the people of Ukraine, to community support after a hard week, and to celebrating birthdays by giving back in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Here at Red Wine & Blue, we believe in the power of conversations. And now you can listen in on some of those conversations live every week on social media. Every Monday morning at 11 Eastern, Jo and Jill chat about the news of the day, what to look for in the weeks ahead, and what stories you might've missed. They’re often joined by special guests like Shannon Watts, Alex Vindman and Fred Guttenberg. You can tune in live on Twitter by following us @redwineblueusa, and you can check out our past conversations on YouTube.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

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Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 7

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Amanda Weinstein.  

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman.

Jasmine Clark: I’m Jasmine Clark.

Amanda: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. We've been talking about reproductive freedom ever since Roe v. Wade was overturned last year, and of course before that too, but this week we're talking about another major attack on abortion rights as a conservative judge in Texas is probably about to ban medication abortions, not just for women in Texas, but all across the country. Even in blue states. 

So I sat down with Angela Vasquez-Giroux, the VP of Comms and Research at NARAL Pro-Choice America, to tell me more about what this means and what we can do. And before that, we're going to talk with Dr. Anita Samani, who is a state rep here in Ohio, and an OB-GYN. So I'm sure she's gonna have some really insightful things to say about this.

So how are you guys feeling about all of this news? This kind of snuck up on me is how I am feeling.

Rachel: I, I don't understand how it's possible. 

Jasmine: I think that there's always been this attack on reproductive rights and they attacked from multiple different angles. So it's not like they only went after Roe. They have been going after medication abortion as well for quite a while now. And so I think this case is just the latest in their, you know, list of things that they will do to try to take away reproductive freedom and take away abortion rights in our country. 

Rachel: I actually took it for my third ectopic pregnancy. I had three and the first two I had surgery. One I've talked about extensively. It was emergency surgery. The second was just I was in Austria and that is sort of, surgery was kind of how they dealt with it. But my third one, I was in Moscow. And let me just tell you that healthcare in Moscow, even at the western, you can't see my air quotes, the “western” facilities is not exactly what most people would consider, I think, modern healthcare. And they still prescribed this to me. And there was no downtime. I mean, I was a little bit tired, but I didn't have surgery like I did twice before. Which was, you know, surgery always comes with risks and it was, it was just a normal miscarriage, if you will.

And I feel very badly that this is being taken off the table. I mean, I'm, I'm mad about it, don't get me wrong. I'm upset. But I just feel badly for women who will not have this option because it is night and day different. 

Amanda: So much safer. I mean, seems like Putin's okay with it. Is that like what the GOP needs to hear?

Rachel: Oh my gosh. Should I write an op-ed, guys? 

Jasmine: That is a good point. Since they're so pro-Putin now. But I mean, to your point, Amanda, this has been used for 20 years. When it comes to side effects and things like that, it's safer than Tylenol. When it comes to its approval, it's kind of similar to how Viagra got approved.

Amanda: Interesting. They weren't, they weren't going after the FDA on Viagra. I wonder why. It's almost like politicians shouldn't be making these decisions. Like, like maybe your trained doctor should be making this decision with you.

Rachel: Yeah. Maybe that's a, a really great idea that these are not decisions that should be made by hospital administrators or judges or any kind of attorney at all, no offense attorneys. But it should be made by an actual medical professional. And that's what we’re facing in this entire debate is that there are people who have no business exploring these issues and thinking that they get to decide. But I mean, isn't that the same as the books and the book banning and it's just forcing themselves on us? Again, so strange for the party of small government that they are pushing these ideas. But here we are. 

Amanda: Oh, so we are, I mean, speaking of Putin, we are a year out from when he invaded Ukraine. 

Rachel: Indeed. 

Amanda: What, what's going on there? Is this just gonna be the new Afghanistan where this is just our new normal?

Rachel: I don't think it's going to be Afghanistan, cause I still don't think that we’re still going to send soldiers in. But I think what was true last year is still true, even though fortunately it hasn't happened, that the longer a war drags on, the more opportunity there is for others to be pulled in, others being NATO countries, because any accident would likely involve a NATO countries since they're on, you know, the borders on Ukraine's borders, Western borders.

So, you know, I, I think there's a lot of resolve in this and continues to be in this administration as well as the normal Republicans. I, I don't know who they are, but I mean, as a whole, but there are–

Amanda: They’re just called Democrats now. 

Rachel: Haha. Yeah. Yeah. But Mitch McConnell has said that, you know, the war in Ukraine is the biggest threat to American democracy. He's not wrong. I mean, I might not agree with him on much, but I do agree with him on that.  And Alex did a really great Twitter Space on Friday with Jo and Jill and you can probably find that on–

Jasmine: I love that. 

Rachel: Yeah. You can find that on Red Wine and Blue. And he really, you know, just kind of reiterated why this matters. We've, in a year, you get caught up in all the stories and you know, it just, it becomes, you forget a lot of the things. And it was really just taking it back to basics in a real way, of like, why should we still care and why does this still matter to us when, you know, we are paying the price? Like we were just getting over the supply chain issues, and then we have the, you know, fuel shortages, or not shortages but expenses, you know, so all these things that are being affected by the war in Ukraine. And it can lead to a lot of fatigue. 

But it matters because if Putin is allowed to just take over Ukrainian territory, there will be other countries and he will not stop at non-NATO countries. It's just the way it's going to be. So the quickest way to get this over is to give Ukraine, who, look, they've done an amazing job for a year. So much heart, so much, you know, they're very plucky. And they have continued to show their bravery and that they're not leaving, they're, they're not gonna just roll over. So we have to give them what we need. And we as, I don't mean just we as the United States, I mean, we as the western world, as NATO, needs to give them what they need so that they can defeat Vladimir Putin. So he can, you know, kind of maybe put to bed these revanchist ideas that he has about reviving the Soviet Union. 

Jasmine: It's amazing to me that it's been a year, because it feels like so much has happened both here in the United States and there. But I don't think that Putin himself was prepared to be fighting this for as long as he's been having to fight.

Amanda: I don't think so either. I think that was a big… well, I don't know, I hope it will be a big ego check for him that he is still here. This was not the quick, you know, you will be heralded as some liberator or something that he maybe thought it was gonna be. I mean, it seems like a lot of this far right extremism is just egos that have to be put in check. And if they're not in check, you get something as extreme as Ukraine being invaded or you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene calling for a civil war or January 6th and all of this is when egos just run wild to me. 

So Jasmine, I don't, I was gonna ask you if you saw the Washington Post had an article where it was looking at medical debt was the highest in the South. And the big reason they said is because they haven't expanded Medicaid yet. Which is exactly what the Republicans are gonna go for when they're trying to reduce. 

Jasmine: Literally right before we came to record today, I was meeting with survivors of leukemia who were telling their stories about why they support Medicaid expansion. And I spoke to a woman, her name was Valerie. When she was diagnosed with leukemia, she was also a caregiver for her mom and so she didn't have a job and therefore she did not have employer-based insurance. Each one of her treatments was tens of thousands of dollars, and basically she had to find a way to pay for each one cause she didn't have insurance. They told her she needed a stem cell transplant and apparently that cost a million dollars. And she was like, they might as well have just told me you can die right now. 

And that was just one story. I heard so many stories in such a short amount of time. And the thing about it is what I was telling the people as they were talking to me is like, “I'm on your side. I want Medicaid expansion. I want people to be able to feel confident about going to the doctor. I want people to be able to get lifesaving screenings. I want all of those things for everyone. I'm not the person you need to convince, but the person you need to convince won't even step foot in this room because they're afraid to hear your stories. Because they know that they are on the wrong side of this policy.” 

Amanda: I think that's such a good point when you say they're afraid to hear your stories. I think that is true, that is true with so many issues right now. When you, if you look at abortion, the abortion pill, they are doing everything they can to stick their fingers in their ears saying, “la, la, la, la, la. I'm not gonna listen to these stories.” But the problem is we live in a world where we have so many ways to get our stories out, whether that's the media or Twitter or Facebook or just talking with our friends, and those stories are going to come out. So we have to keep telling those stories because eventually they're gonna have to hear them cause so many people are gonna talk about it.

Alright, so our next guest couldn't make it to our recording session this afternoon. She's not just an Ohio State representative, but she's also a practicing OB-GYN and she had patients today. So Rachel's going to catch up with her later today and I can't wait to hear it. Okay, Rachel, take it away. 

Rachel: Thank you! Dr. Anita Somani is a mom, a state rep, a doctor, and a first generation immigrant. Anita, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.  

Rep. Dr. Anita Somani: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for accommodating my schedule.  

Rachel: Well, we know you're busy. You're a doctor, among other things, so many other things. So obviously what we wanna talk to you about, the big news in women's health this week is the court case in Texas where a conservative judge is likely going to ban the abortion pill. Not just for women in Texas, but across the country, which is mind blowing. You're literally coming to this interview right after finishing up with a patient, so as a doctor, what goes through your mind when you think about this abortion pill ban?

Anita: So, you know, first of all, I think it's a slippery slope. I think it's insane that people can pick the courts that they take their cases to. I mean this, this case is being intentionally brought up in Texas because of the judge that's listening to it, right? And when legislators start banning perfectly safe medications, what's to stop them from banning or restricting other types of treatments and care? And if you think about it, we're already starting to see some of that happen in terms of gender affirming care. We've seen it happen with, you know, surgical abortions, which truly are safer than pregnancy. So I think that we need to do better as a country.

Rachel: I think people need to understand what's happening and unfortunately, there are a lot of issues that you only are aware of if they affect you or if you've ever gone through an experience like this. And, and that's, you know, not everyone, right. Also just the news about what's happening... I mean, we’re constantly getting news and we're busy people, so yeah, it makes it difficult to completely understand. Cause I think a lot of people might see this and think, “I'll never need an abortion. I'll never need an abortion pill. So I wish it was available, but yeah, eh.”

Anita: Yeah, “eh, no big deal.” Yeah, and I would agree with you on that, except for if you look at the statistics, right, one out of four women have had an abortion. And if you throw into that mix women who have had miscarriages, women who've had ectopic pregnancies, women who have, you know, potentially have gone through infertility treatments and had to make a decision that was just devastating to them… And I mean, I know I listen to the podcast, I know you've been through some of that, but you know, there are times where a patient's forced to make a decision for their life or the fetal life. So I would bet you if you were actually to ask people, more people know women that have had abortions than haven’t.

Rachel: Yeah. That's true. So it's interesting, you know, studies have shown that mifepristone, the abortion pill, is very safe. If our friends or neighbors ask us questions about the pill, what can we tell them? I mean, we're not doctors, but you are. 

Anita: First of all, I would preface this with, you know, mifepristone is probably the most closely studied drug that we have. What I would tell them is that this is a pill that we also have other reasons to use. It's not even about mifepristone itself. I mean, it's got a great safety profile, but more critical to all of this is the fact that by not providing that optimal combination of drugs, by just taking one off the market and saying, “we're not gonna allow you to use this,” you're jeopardizing a woman who actually wants to go through, whether it's a termination for elective reasons, or a termination for medical reasons. Those things don't matter. But by giving them less than standard care, you're going to harm them.

And I think that's what people need to be aware of, is the idea that you're actually harming patients, you're not helping them. And as physicians, we are being placed in a position where we're unable to do our Hippocratic oath when it comes to Do No Harm, you know? Cause suddenly we can't do the best care for that patient. So my take on this is, you know, if you're really truly pro-life, you need to be pro-mom, not just pro-fetus. 

Rachel: Why do you think this is even happening? This idea of taking away mechanisms that aren't abortion, I mean, just, you know, like a medical abortion, but taking other avenues away. What do you think is at the heart of it?

Anita: So it's not medically driven, right? I mean, you, you and I could talk about this all day. It's… why are we taking away rights of LGBTQ people? Why are we taking away rights of, you know, underserved communities? Whether it's through changing affirmative action or saying we're not gonna get rid of student loan debt, you know, that disproportionately affects people of color. 

You know, you circle every argument you can and sometimes it comes back to… and I don't, I don't wanna offend anybody, but you can go back to saying it's white privilege. You can go back to saying it's the idea that women… women shouldn't be equal to men. And so what can we do to restrict women? Well, we can restrict their reproductive rights.? And I think this speaks to the idea of childcare. Even when you think about how, you know, most of the work for raising a child falls on women, right? Which is probably one of the reasons we don't have adequate childcare in this country. You know, if it was men that were doing the childrearing, I would bet you every company would offer childcare and subsidized childcare. I think if men had babies, I think abortion would be freely available.

Rachel: You know, it's, it's, it's, it's completely true. I mean, you know, but this has to be part of the conversation. I think when we're having these talks with our friends and neighbors, it's really important to get to the heart of it because we can talk about, you know, what is happening. But I think the why it's happening is also important conversation to have to force people. Kind of just take that next step and go further and think, why are we even talking about this? Why is this even an issue? 

Anita: When you talk to women who, you know, fought this fight once before… my 92 year old mother-in-law literally said to me, “I had no rights when I, you know, when I was in my twenties, thirties. I couldn't even buy a car. I needed my husband or my father's signature, you know? And then I got to the point where I could have my own credit card, and then abortion became legal. And women had those reproductive freedoms, which allowed them to plan their families, not to be forced into having a family before they completed college or before they, you know, started their career. She goes, “And now I'm 92 and I'm losing rights. That just doesn't make sense.”

Rachel: I have a grandmother who's 96 and she says things like this all the time. And it's true. But she also knows many women who were in this situation before obviously abortion was legal. And that's been, you know, interesting. We’ve heard on the podcast, with women in our own lives, but also in Red Wine and Blue’s Facebook group SWEEP, you know, just absolutely tragic stories. And it's something women are more comfortable discussing, but we need to talk about it more.  

Anita: Those tragic stories are happening again. You know, you talk to the residents who are sort of the first line in the hospital and they'll tell you, you know, these cases where they're struggling because you have to talk to ethics and you have to talk to a lawyer, and meanwhile the patient's care is being delayed. And they're suffering.

Rachel: I simply cannot imagine. Again, we say it a lot and I don't wanna trivialize it, but a medical decision should be made by a medical professional. There should never be anyone else involved except for the patient. There shouldn't be anyone else in the chain of command about what is the best care for someone.

I would be remiss, you know, if we didn't talk about this. On the podcast, we talk about all the hats everyone wears, women wear, but you wear more than most. You're a mom, an elected official, an immigrant, a doctor. How do all of those roles intersect? 

Anita: If I understand correctly, your husband and his twin brother are also immigrants, correct?

Rachel: Yeah.

Anita: And I remember hearing him say something similar, you know, that you come here to, you come to this country as an immigrant with an idea that you're coming to a place that has better opportunities, you know, a chance for your family to have a better life. And once you're here and you do go get those opportunities, you wanna give back to that country.

So I look at it as all of my roles have involved basically helping others. Whether, you know, it was raising my kids, making sure that they grew up to be adults that were caring, compassionate, you know, wanted to give back. Also when it's taking care of patients. I mean, we as physicians get a lot out of it, you know, when you deliver a baby or you take care of someone through a miscarriage, you do surgery on someone, and they come back and tell you that you changed their life. All those things are sort of part of giving back. 

Politics was not really something that was on my list of things that I wanted to do, on my bucket list, but the Roe v Wade decision was leaked in May, and then also in Ohio we had gerrymandering that led to new districts being created. So I was asked to run right around the time of all this, you know, Roe v Wade stuff happening. And you know, it was sort of that perfect intersection or perfect storm. I recognized that legislators were gonna be the ones who are gonna be critical to either protecting abortion rights or destroying abortion rights.

Rachel: Oh, I love that. You, you live in Columbus and represent Ohio's 11th district, so I am interested to hear your thoughts about the train disaster this month, both from your perspective as a physician and as an elected representative. 

Anita: So again, I, it really is disappointing that we are politicizing public health. It is something that in the immediate short-term period, yes, we need to worry about the toxic waste. We need to worry about cleanup, we need to worry about the people in the community and making sure that we create better standards, you know. And when I think about this, it's not just about trains, you know, there have been factory explosions, there have been workplace accidents because of deregulation. Because people look at corporate profits. And we as legislators need to push for better regulation. 

Rachel: I agree. You know, Anita, thank you so much for joining us. I don't even know if I should call you Anita, or doctor, or representative. I mean, it's, there's so much, but I really–

Anita: My friends say the same thing. They're like, “what are we supposed to call you?” And I'm like, “Just call me Your Highness.” 

Rachel: Haha. Okay. Yeah, that's perfect. 

Anita: No no no, I’m just kidding.

Rachel: No for you I will do that. But when my husband got his doctorate, and I was like, you know, “do I call you Retired Lieutenant Colonel, Lieutenant Colonel Retired Doctor? No, I'm just still gonna call you Alex, and you're still gonna take out the trash.” 

Anita: Yeah, absolutely. 

Rachel: I hope someone takes out the trash for you. 

Anita: Ha. Thanks. 

Rachel: Well again, thank you so much for joining us. Now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll have Amanda's interview with Angela Vasquez-Giroux.

BREAK

Amanda: Our guest today has worked on democratic political campaigns and for Planned Parenthood. She's now the Vice President of Communications and Research at NARAL Pro-Choice America. Angela Vasquez-Giroux, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Angela Vasquez-Giroux: Thanks for having me.

Amanda: There has been so much going on with abortion access since Roe v. Wade was overturned, and I'm looking forward to digging into all of it with you, but today the most pressing thing to talk about is a lawsuit in Texas that could ban medication abortion across the country. So we're recording this on Friday, the day the decision is supposed to be released. We’re still waiting, we haven't heard anything yet.So could you tell us what is going on there? What is the abortion pill and how is a ruling in Texas gonna affect everyone? And everyone even in blue states? 

Angela: Yeah. First things first I think that's the top line, right? None of us are safe from the impacts of this potential ruling, which we do expect will probably not go our way because the judge is, you know, a right wing Trump appointee who has already ruled terribly on cases with LGBTQ implications, et cetera. So we aren't safe in Michigan where I'm from, where I live now, even though we passed a ballot initiative to protect abortion access in our state constitution. No one is safe from this, even California. 

So to back up, what's really happening here is anti-abortion organizations and some of their financial backers are continuing to look for ways to ban abortion by any means possible. In this case, they're trying to force the FDA to withdraw approval for mifepristone, which is one of the two medications usually used in medication abortion. We usually call it Miffy because that's easier. And Miffy has been used by millions of people over the last 20 years to safely end early pregnancies and manage miscarriages. It is safer than Tylenol. 

Now if you're wondering why these folks waited 20 years to challenge the safety and efficacy of Miffy, that is a great question. I think the answer is pretty obvious. If they were really worried, they would've filed 5, 10 or 20 years ago. But this isn't based on the science or the medicine. This is based on politics. So because this case is really seeking an order that applies to the FDA, that does impact us all. If the judge rules for the plaintiffs, that means the FDA would be forced to withdraw approval, which would mean that Miffy would be pulled from the shelves. 

Amanda: Wow. So, and it manages miscarriages, so that means even women who are having a miscarriage would be denied this drug to keep them safe?

Angela: Correct. I mean, you know, we’ve already seen the chaos since the Dobbs decision, even in states where, you know, they pretend to have exceptions for the life of the mother or the health of the mother, or for, you know, a fetus with a severe diagnosis. We've seen already that folks aren't getting the care that is medically necessary in those circumstances. And, you know, you extrapolate that to something like this, the impacts are gonna be just as awful and probably wider reaching. 

Amanda: Oh yeah. So we've talked about how even, like even exceptions for the life of the mother, which the vast majority of people agree with, what you end up with… it's never the woman's decision if it's her life that is worth saving in this moment.

Angela: Right? Funny that the GOP was all riled up about that when it was about Obamacare, but now that it's actually about life and death decisions made by politicians, they're strangely quiet. 

Amanda: So odd that way, you know. So what can we do? What are the next steps? 

Angela: So first up is staying informed. I know a lot of folks don't have time to, you know, read every newspaper that comes out. That's okay. Groups like NARAL pro-Choice America, Planned Parenthood, and Emily's List do a really great job of keeping information current on our websites, our Twitter feeds, our Instagram, so follow us there to stay informed. Tell your friends what you know is happening, right? We know that most people don't believe what they hear unless they hear it from a trusted source. And for a lot of us, our friends are our most trusted sources. So please tell your friends what's happening. You can volunteer to do things like phone bank to keep people informed, to help them. Contact their legislators or take action once the specifics of the ruling are out. A lot of the next steps are gonna be partly dependent on the specifics of the ruling, which as you said, we don't have yet. But you better believe that we're all gonna be fighting back with a full force of our movement if this doesn't go our way. 

Amanda: Wow. I mean, so that's a good point. We think like, “I might not have a lot of Twitter followers and who's gonna listen to me?” But you know who listens to you? It’s your friend, your neighbor, your mom, your aunt, your daughter. And are those the best conversations to have anyway, go grab a glass of wine and hey, here's what I've heard from NARAL or Emily's list, or Planned Parenthood, any of them. And. I feel like this snuck up on me. We're like, whoa, what is going on? And I know for you all, you're like, “This did not sneak up on us. We are ready for this. We are gonna do what we can.” But I know there's probably a lot of people like, wow, this kind of snuck up on me.  

Angela: Absolutely. I, you know, a lot of my friends work in politics in Michigan and nationally, and we were having brunch a few weeks ago and one of my friends looked at me and said, we were talking about this. And she said, “But we'll be okay. We'll be fine because we have, we've passed Prop 3.” And I was like, “No.” You know, like that's, that's the thing. We're not gonna be fine. And then she said, “Well, even California?” I said, “Yes, even California.” That's what makes this so insidious and terrifying, is there's not much that we can do about it until something happens and then we can fight it.

Amanda: Yeah. Man. A lot of good happens at brunch. We need more, more brunch. I think that is a movement right there. What can we talk about at brunch?

 So, Texas has been a breeding ground for some of the most extreme bans on abortion care, but it's not the only state limiting reproductive rights. What's some anti-choice legislation we should know about in other states?

Angela: Yeah. As you'd expect, it's popping up in the usual suspects. We've seen several states that are moving to criminalize abortion providers or patients, that's happening in Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina. We've seen so-called “Fetal Personhood” bills popping up in places like Montana. That, of course, is a dangerous slippery slope of a bill that essentially would allow the anti-choice movement to pivot to their next step, which is banning IVF and birth control. So really what we're seeing here is, you know, they're not stopping at Dobbs, they're not stopping at what laws are already in place. They're continuing to push for more extreme and more harmful bans across the country. 

Amanda: That's terrible. So we know that eight, 10 Americans support the legal right to abortion, and yet anti-choice politicians keep trying to ban it. Why do you think they keep trying and what is their endgame? . 

Angela: I don't know if you ever watched Captain Planet when you were a kid. But remember the villains and they were just like, “We just wanna cover the earth in slime.” But there's no strong core belief system there, right? It's not like, it's not like this is a group of people who deeply believe in saving children, right? Because if they did, obviously they would be out working on the formula shortage or providing diapers to mothers all across the country, but they're not doing that.

Really what it is is, they don't believe they're the minority. Even when the numbers are clear, like they are here, we've all seen the same polls, we've all done the same research. They are the vast minority of people. The election made it even clearer, but because these extremists in the G O P exist in an echo chamber, now they're just, they're so far out of step with the real world because they just don't live in it. So they're applying this ethos to a world that doesn't exist and what it ends up really being. They look like people who just want to burn things for the sake of burning them. 

Amanda: That is such a good point. So I remember, I, I can't remember if we talked about it on our podcast, but Trump even lying about his crowd sizes and it seemed like this silly thing to lie about, but by lying about your crowd size, what you're trying to tell everyone is that you're in the majority, right? “Most people think like me, most people support me.” 

And this is a lot of what those extremist right groups are doing. They think, I think some of them think, they're in the majority. And they think, “oh, that's just a, you know, biased poll from Planned Parenthood, right? That can't be true.” And we really need to make sure that we are loud and make sure they know that absolutely not. You are absolutely in the minority and we have, and what you said is exactly right, but we have a lot of research. We know that giving women abortion access reduces infant mortality. It reduces maternal mortality. So if what they really care about is life, they're absolutely going about it the wrong way. 

Angela: 100% agree. I've only been at NARAL for about a year now, and one of the things that we sort of repeat and drill into ourselves and into the public's consciousness is that we are the 8 in 10. Eight in ten Americans support the right to legal abortion. You know, maybe for some years a lot of folks were quiet about it because they didn't have a reason to be loud. But Dobbs gave us all a reason to be loud, and I don't think that we need to put that down now that, you know, we're past the midterm elections. And the silver lining here that the GOP and the right wing are constantly giving us reasons to stay angry and active and loud about it.

Amanda: That's such a good point. We need to keep talking about the stories of how this really is affecting real women right now in very, very awful and heartbreaking ways. We know it has really bad health outcomes for women and for children. They're not saving lives here. It's really just about controlling women, right? Especially, I mean with all of it, but it becomes really clear when you're banning methods of birth control that this is just about control. This is definitely not about saving any lives. 

Angela: No, I 100% agree with you there. These bans don't make anything safer for anyone. There's not a single person who benefits from not being able to choose from the full range of care for whatever condition they're facing, right?

There's just no upside for anyone in this situation. when you care about making something better for someone, you don't do that by removing choices from their lives or from, you know, their doctors. 

Amanda: No, and I think there is research, we were talking about Obamacare, so the Affordable Care Act, because of the mandate to give women the choices to give women the choice, you have access to birth control, has prevented about 300,000 abortions every year. Like we actually know how to prevent abortions with birth control. And they seem to be doing the opposite. And I don't know if the people who really seem to care about abortions even realize any of this stuff. It's so frustrating.

Angela: There's actually some new research out by a polling firm whose research I think is fascinating. What they found is that people's views on abortion and birth control aren't really driven by any ideals. They're actually just sort of a proxy for their views on gender. So the same people who say things like, “I wouldn't marry a woman who had, you know, sexual partners before our marriage, or I would have less respect for her.” Those are the same people who say things like “Abortion should be illegal in all cases.” And who also say things like, “I believe that a woman would get an abortion at 41 weeks.”  

Amanda: You know, just casually just changing your mind like, “Oh, I super want a baby. Just kidding. No, I don't.”

Angela: Right, right. But that's what they believe! This has been the question I ask folks all the time. You really believe that there's a woman who would do that, a doctor who would accept her, that they'd somehow meet up at the exact right time, and the woman would have just 30 grand in cash on hand? And see one of the three doctors who's available to do this in the US? It's not logical, but these are the feelings that these folks have about women, and by proxy they act them out in these policies on birth control and abortion. 

Amanda: Oh man, when you say it that way, it is as fanciful as ice fishing leading to prostitution as our mayor thought. Like it is just fanciful nonsense thinking where you get these bills that have real impacts on women.

In better news this week, the Governors of 20 states announced a historic reproductive Freedom Alliance, including Michigan Governor, Gretchen Whitmer. Definitely a favorite on the podcast for sure. Could you tell us more about this alliance and what it means? By the way, I'll also say my husband has a huge political crush on Gretchen Whitmer. I don't think he’ll mind me telling everyone this. But could you tell us more about this alliance and what it means? 

Angela: Yeah, so we know that the leader is the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, who had some really snarky billboards up earlier this year, late last year that were just delightful. So he is leading the Reproductive Freedom Alliance, which really is a formal structure for governors to work together to tackle this issue of abortion access and attacks on other forms of reproductive care. 

You know, a ban in one state is essentially a ban in all states. Needs for abortion and access don't stop at a border. When abortion was banned in Texas and I was at Planned Parenthood, we saw patients from Texas, they would fly, you know, all the way across the country for one day to access the care they needed. What this alliance is really seeking to do is to give Democratic governors a way to formalize that relationship, to have a space to work out solutions to these problems. Especially looking at, you know, the coming ruling in the FDA case. 

I think it's also a really important, powerful public message for, you know, people to see that, you know, it is scary when you hear about this FDA case. It's scary when you hear about people who are bleeding into their backseat because they aren't sick enough to have an abortion. But what you feel when you hear about this, right, is there are people who care. They're working on it, and they want you to know that they're trying and they're gonna come up with some solutions that are hopefully going to help us mitigate the harm until we can, you know, fight back and end these bad policies.

Amanda: This is, I mean, I'm an economist, so I'm biased. This is an economic issue to me, like it is all an economic issue. Like this is how we make the choices of our lives is by having access to choices. We don't have freedom of anything without these freedom of choices, and this is just so fundamental. So what gives you hope? Things seem a little dark right now, so what keeps you going? 

Angela: Yeah. You know, I live in Michigan. My daughter goes to high school six blocks north from where the shootings were at MSU and she's been off school more for gun violence and threats at her school and MSU than she has been because of snow. So like when you say it's dark times, like, I feel it. 

But out of that same, you know, set of awful circumstances, I'm just touched to see how kids her age are reacting. You know, they're mad, they have all the rage that we have, but they're not giving up and they're not meaning the moment with just white hot anger. They're, they're responding with love, which I think is something that just, you know, never occurred to me. 

Last weekend, her floor hockey team, which they call Flockey, by the way, they stayed after their matches and they cut out green and white hearts and they wrote sweet messages on them and they put them up all over the residence halls for students. Just saying, you know, “We love you. You are loved. It'll be okay.” You know, just these affirming, loving messages. I thought, you know, first of all, I cried. And then I thought, you know, this is such a new way to approach the world, right? I came up in an era of organizing and activism that was, and still is for me, a lot about anger, right? Like, you know, like, “We're not gonna take it.” 

Amanda: Yes! Like, let's go, let's do this. 

Angela: Yeah, but she and her friends, they're just these giant golden hearts meeting this moment with love, you know? Love for the students at MSU and love for the trans kids who are being attacked by lawmakers. And that really gives me hope that there's another way to change the world, right? And that there's this generation that's really really showing us the way. There are different ways to fight and you can, and there are ways to fight with love.

Amanda: Yeah, I think we discount that and we discount how strong and how effective it can be to fight with love. And I think you're totally right. I feel you. I'm like, “Yes, I'm gonna bring out my Beth Dutton, let's go. I'm gonna do this.” Right? But my daughter's like, “What if we write a note about it?” I'm like, “Oh yeah, that's another way that we can handle it. I didn't think about that.” That didn't occur to me. So yes, absolutely. There's a lot we can, we can learn from them. 

All right. Well this is a really heavy and really important topic, but before you go, we want to ask you a few light and not all that important rapid fire questions. Are you ready? 

Angela: Yes. 

Amanda: Alright. What's your drink of choice after a long, hard day? So basically today? 

Angela: Basically today. Yes. Well, my fiance, he makes what we call the Vegas Drink, which is something we had at a place called the Legacy Bar in Vegas right after the, right after the Dobbs leak happened and I was on vacation. And it's bourbon, amaretto, and some other things. I don't know, I don't make it, he does, but when it's been like a day like it will be today if we get the decision, I just go for the basics. Like a straight bourbon. Last night it was rye, just straight into the glass. 

Amanda: Oh, nice. So you've done a lot of work in Michigan and so has Red Wine and Blue. So what's your favorite thing about Michigan? 

Angela: The fall, hands down fall. I love the leaves changing color. I love the way it smells when the leaves are changing and, you know, all the vegetation is kind of melting itself and it's sunny and there's a breeze. There's just, there's absolutely nothing like fall in Michigan. 

Amanda: Oh, I so agree. I love all four seasons and the fall. Like the, first of all, the choices are amazing in terms of what I can wear. Do I wanna wear a sweater? Do I wanna have a fire? Do I wanna sit out? Love the choices.

So you have a lot of tattoos. I've got a few too. Could you tell us about the meaning behind one of them? 

Angela: I have to tell you, it is so refreshing to get this question from someone who is not a creepy dude at Happy Hour up and is like, “Uhhh what do these mean?” So I am happy to answer for you. Here on my inner left wrist, I have a map of the state of Arkansas and there's a little red star for the state capitol. I've called my daughter Little Rock since she was in elementary school, so I got this as her little, you know, keeping her close to me all the time tattoo. 

Amanda: Oh, that's cute. So what's the best thing that's happened to you this year? 

Angela: Like a lot of women of color, I have a wicked imposter syndrome complex still. So the things that have really just lifted me up this year have been affirmations from people I admire. So I've been so lucky to, you know, be in contact with some of the people whose books I loved and whose work, you know, really set me on this path. And when I talk to them about things I'm thinking about and they tell me that it's a good idea or they've never heard anything like that, you know, they're, that's just validating in a way that really helps me grow my confidence in the work that I'm doing for the movement at NARAL. And also I did get a first paragraph quote in Vanity Fair, and that was just pretty baller. 

Amanda: Yes. That's awesome. So, if you could elect any fictional character president, who would it be? 

Angela: So after we spent all this time talking about meeting the moment with love—

Amanda: I know! It's not our generation. I totally understand. It's not our, that's what our kids are gonna teach us. 

Angela: You know, I have an affinity for Arya Stark and her, her motivations, right? She is all about accountability, being decisive, and not being afraid to take on the big bad. So, you know, that's gonna be someone we're gonna need on our side in the future. And if, if she existed, I would be right behind her.  

Amanda: Oh yes. Alright, that is the end of our rapid-fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work? 

Angela: You can find us at prochoiceamerica.org. And you can also find us on Twitter and Instagram. Please follow us on Instagram. We're making some really sweet memes that you can share with your friends. And actually I have it. It's the good authority of one teenager that they're pretty sweet.  

Amanda: Oh, I love a good meme. This was so great. Thanks for discussing this really important topic with us on the Suburban Women Problem.

Angela: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

BREAK

Jasmine: Welcome back everyone! So first I just wanna say, Amanda, that your interview with Angela was great. I like how y'all talked about how older generations of women are remembering and they're fed up, and that is justified. But I also like how you also brought it back by talking about how her daughter's generation seems to be responding with love. So you've got the anger and you've got the love. And so I, I loved that part of y'all's interview. 

Amanda: I really love that. It reminded me a lot, she hadn't seen it yet, but have you guys seen the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once? There's a little bit of this theme of, we think of there's one way to fight and we think fighting has to be kicking ass, but you can also fight with love. And this was a really important, I thought, message in the movie. There is more than one way to fight. And not only can we let people fight the way they want to, but I think we can take some lessons from our kids who have learned how to fight with love. And man, is it hard to have a comeback when someone responds out of love rather than anger, and it just sets a completely different tone. So I thought that was really interesting. That is not my, I don't think it's any of our generation's nature to fight that way, and she admitted it wasn't her generation either. But I love that there are new generations out there ready to fight in a different way and maybe even get more done than we've been able to get done. So it was very helpful, I thought. 

Rachel: It's so true. I really do, I see the younger generations doing that. So it was interesting to hear that because I don't think I've ever made that connection before, but it is really true that that's how they operate. I've just never really, I, I guess, identified it myself. But I've observed it. I just hadn't really thought through it to that point.  

Amanda: I know. And some of this has gotta be because we are doing such a good jobs as moms! So pat on the back there. Oh, another thing that Angela talked about is, man, we can get stuff done over brunch. Having a little joy and time to chat. So what is your Toast to Joy today, Jasmine? 

Jasmine: All right, so my Toast is gonna actually start out a little sad, but it does get happy. So just bear with me. So I have talked about my puppy Stormie on the podcast plenty of times. Well Stormie wasn't feeling very well and I took her to the emergency vet and when I got there we actually got really devastating news that she was very, very, very, very, very sick. And the prognosis was really poor. And so we made the difficult decision to say our final goodbyes to Stormie. 

Amanda: Oh, I'm sorry. 

Jasmine: I didn't have her long, I only had her… I actually got her last summer, so I didn't even have her a year, but she was older. She was 11 years old. So I adopted her as an older dog. I thought I would have a little bit more time with her. But it was really sad and I was, you know, I was taking it really hard. But my neighborhood had a neighborhood karaoke that had already been planned for months. I was so excited about it when they first announced it, and the neighborhood of karaoke happened to be the day after I had to put Stormie down. And so I needed, in that moment, I needed something to be happy and joyous about and it was just right on time. 

So I got a chance to hang out with my neighborhood, it was like kids and everything. The kids were singing songs that I'm like, “How do you know this song? It’s so old!” But they knew it. I sang Backstreet Boys and the kids were like my backup singers. How did you know Backstreet Boys? I don't know! Because these kids are like, 10! But they knew all the words. And so it was really fun. I really had a great time spending time with my neighbors. A lot of my neighbors knew the news, they had seen it on my Facebook page, and they covered me in love and all that stuff. 

So my Toast to Joy is to just like, the community that will wrap themselves around you when you really need it. And you know, just like serendipitously that karaoke, which is literally my favorite thing in the whole world, happened to be available at a time where I was, you know, I really needed something fun to happen or something good to happen.

Amanda: Oh. Oh, I remember when we had to put down our… she was a pittie. And I loved her so much. And I think I put some Facebook message up and put some pictures and how much I missed her. And in my head I was like, “Nothing you can say will make me feel better. I'm just putting this on Facebook, now leave me alone.” But like all the messages I got actually did make me feel so much better. And I was like, all right. Well that actually it did. It really helped. 

But it also, this is a strange connection for me, however, I don't know if you've seen the kind of tearful story of, I think a woman from Tennessee who had a really terrible diagnosis for a pregnancy and wasn't allowed to terminate the pregnancy. She wanted to give a humane end to a life that she dearly, dearly loves, right? And we do that for our dogs, and people don't question it, right? People know, like, you love this dog and this dog deserves a humane end. And I've done it for my dogs. And it's just strange the way that we don't think of people that same way.

Rachel: It's so judgmental to say that they don't trust me to make the decision with love. That I am some sort of callous individual. Only they are the arbiter of who is sincere and who wants to do things for the right reasons. And it's because some people, they feel, might make decisions for the wrong reasons– and again, they're the arbiters of what is right and wrong–then no one can do these things.

Ironically, I have made those decisions both for animals and for my own human daughter. And I mean, of course it was more difficult for a human, but it still was a base of like mercy and dignity, right? And I mean, in both cases. So I just find it so, so offensive, both for me personally, but just for the citizens of our country that there's this group of people who get to choose for us. And, and I really think we should look at it that way as humans to say, “Let's try to see the humanity and the good in others.” 

And I will just use that little speech to go into my Toast to Joy, which is to Ukraine, to the people of Ukraine who continue to fight, who continue to show us what it means to protect their sovereignty. Who value their freedom and are willing to pay such a huge price with their lives and treasure and whatever it takes to really stay the course. This time last year, they thought Kiev would fall in a few days and Kiev still stands. So my Toast to Joy is to the people of Ukraine, and my appeal is to the people of the United States that we will continue to support them. If for no other reason than we don't want our children to have to fight this war this time. We've done it many times before. We will absolutely do it if we need to. But we can support them and we can convince our elected officials that this is still important to us because Ukraine is standing up to a supreme bully. 

All right, and Amanda? 

Amanda: So my Toast to Joy is, oh, actually, speaking of animals, my Toast to Joy is that we went to the shelter to give donations–

Rachel: Oh my gosh, that's dangerous. 

Amanda: Oh I know, we almost walked out with a cat. We didn't. We were strong. We were very… well. I don't know. My daughter says in nine days we will get a cat. And she has been counting down and today is day seven and she says seven. She's stuck with it. We were like, she'll forget about it. Today she was like, “Mom, in seven days we're gonna get a cat.” We're like, “We never made this deal.” She said, “Uh-huh. Mom, six days.” So I don't know. Right now, we made it out without another animal.

Rachel: Tune in next week, listeners. 

Amanda: Someone's gonna cave. It's probably gonna be my husband if it's anyone actually, but someone's probably gonna cave at some point. Don't tell my kids this, but probably. But we went there because it was my son’s fifth birthday. And so it was a tradition in his birth family from his great-grandmother that instead of presents, they started having people bring donations to someplace. And then the kids would get to deliver the donations and kind of see the good things they did. So instead of presents–which, we don't need more toys in my house so this was really a win-win for us. We don't have a whole bunch of new toys cause he has plenty of toys. He is fine. But we got all these donations for the animal shelter and he got to go in there and give all the donations and see the puppies and see the kitties and want them all, but hopefully not take them home. And it was a great little thing. I loved it. So happy birthday Brady.  

Rachel: Yes. Happy birthday to Brady. And you know, congratulations on your new cat, Amanda. 

Amanda: Haha. Probably, yeah. Thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone you know, and like I talked about with Angela, have those conversations. Invite your sister or your girlfriends to brunch and talk about the abortion pill. Talk about book bans. Talk about what's going on. It's the best way we can make change. I actually just had brunch this weekend and I highly recommend. This is very true. Can confirm. 

We'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem!