Fireworks and Fathers (with Frederick Joseph and Darren Laustsen)

We talk a lot about moms on this podcast. We interview moms who are attending school board meetings, standing up against book bans, and raising compassionate kids. We even talk about Moms For Liberty. But what about dads? They should have the freedom to parent too!

So today, after talking through the recent Supreme Court rulings and the amazing win in Ohio where over 700,000 signatures were successfully collected to support reproductive freedom, our hosts talk about dads. We’re joined by Darren Laustsen, a father in Bucks County PA who has been standing up against the extremists on his local school board.

After that, Jasmine chats with Frederick Joseph, the author of Patriarchy Blues. Fred and Jasmine have an amazing conversation about gender, race, privilege, and how thinking in a binary way “robs us of the reality of the human condition.” Fred shares what he learned being raised by strong women and what other men can learn about self-care and showing up for the people in their lives.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to family reunions, the wonder of small children, and surviving a 5k in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

Do you want to stand up against book bans, like this week's Troublemaker Darren? Do you want to find effective ways to counter right-wing extremists at your school board meetings? Then we invite you to join us on Thursday, July 13th for a Troublemaker Training that's all about book bans. You'll learn how to band together with your neighbors and friends and the best tactics to make your voices heard. You can learn more and register here or by going to redwine.blue.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 27

Jasmine Clark: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda Weinstein: I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine: And you're listening to The Suburban Women Problem. So we talk a lot about moms on this podcast. All three of us are moms and a lot of our listeners are moms. Although, of course, plenty of suburban women also do not have kids. Everyone is welcome here. And even on the other side, we talk a lot about Moms for Liberty, but not many people are talking about dads. 

So this week I talked to Fred Joseph about his book, Patriarchy Blues, and we had a really great conversation about sons and fathers. And before that, we'll be joined by Darren Laustsen, a dad in Pennsylvania who's been speaking at school board meetings and standing up against book bans. 

But before we get to all that, how are y'all and how was your 4th of July? 

Amanda: Very beachy. It was very nice. We usually stay and do a lot of 4th of July Ohio things, which is super fun, but it was nice to get a little break away. So that was a lot of fun.

Jasmine: Yeah. I went to the beach as well. It was a very short trip, it was impromptu. I needed to get some writing done. And so I decided to do a little writing retreat and I had a choice between mountains or beach, but since it's summer, I chose beach. 

Amanda: We should do a writing retreat! But it did let me get away from like all of the news, which was nice. So I feel like you all should tell me what's going on right now. 

Rachel: I just had a really fun 4th of July at home by myself with the dogs. But now my family's back, so we're all together again, and that's good, but I, I will say, like, everyone kept warning me about fireworks and how it was in Florida, where we live now, and it was legitimately, like, I can see why a lot of people who have experienced combat are triggered by fireworks. I've never heard fireworks like this ever in my life. 

Jasmine: I would say in my neighborhood, we've done fireworks before. And, you know, we have a, like, neighborhood fireworks show, like, you know, at the park or whatever. 

Rachel: Which is where I think fireworks should be. 

Jasmine: Right. I don't really know if I feel comfortable with, like, random people, even children, like, setting off industrial fireworks. It was... It was so loud. It was scary. My neighbor set their front yard on fire. Like, it was just a lot. 

Rachel: Speaking of fireworks, if I can pivot at this moment to the Supreme Court, they were kind of all over the place in their fireworks in this year. It is really hard. I know we, we often talk about like celebrating the wins. It is really hard to celebrate wins and I do feel like there were some, when it's coupled with such sucker punches. 

Amanda: It's like a terrible fireworks display where some of the rulings you're like, “Ooh, ah,” and some you're like, “Oh, oh, ohhh.” They ruled against gerrymandered maps. And you're like, “Oh, yay, clap for those fireworks.” And, but then they overturned affirmative action and you're like, “Oh.” You know, interesting that they don't seem to mind legacy admits to Harvard or other universities. 

Jasmine: When I think about the Supreme Court, I think I agree with you, Amanda, I felt like they kind of led up with some, you know, okay, or not so bad decisions. And then they waited and saved the worst for last. 

Some other decisions honestly felt contradictory. So apparently affirmative action is discriminatory, but like the whole thing about you can't be forced to do certain art or something like that, then that's not discriminatory, as long as, like, if I'm a small business owner and I don't want to make a cake for a gay person, I don't have to do that because that's against… I was just like, none of it made sense. It was not cohesive. It was all over the place. 

Rachel: Yeah, I agree. And that's, that's why I think they've lost so much credibility, don't you guys? Because they, I mean, like, none of us are constitutional scholars, we're not constitutional attorneys, and most people in the country are not. So we're the same as the majority of Americans. And so it becomes really difficult, but you have, I feel like, a lot more talking about the Supreme Court and their decisions. For instance, like the case that you just mentioned about the, it was the web designer and it turns out no one ever asked her to design a website. So then you're like, why is this a thing? And then some people say it's not honest. Some people say, actually, you can do this. 

Amanda: You can just make up something like, let's bring it to Supreme Court that unicorns should not be allowed to poop on your neighbor's yard. And let's have the Supreme Court rule on that, whether unicorns should poop on neighbor's yards or not. It's ridiculous. 

Rachel: The end result is you have these people who are kind of debating and it's like very nebulous, like, you know, sort of very academic space that most of us don't live in. It's really easy to be like, “oh, it's just totally rigged. It doesn't matter.” And, and then it's really kind of defeating feeling and and then I think people will maybe just tune it out because… I don't know. I mean, because you can't sort it out and you can't get to the bottom of it.

Jasmine: And it doesn't help that along with all the stuff that was happening, then we've also heard all these reports about these Supreme Court justices riding on people's yachts. All of that together really takes away the confidence in the court that we actually have checks and balances in our country. Fear is often a motivator, or a demotivator. And I think what you end up having are people who are downright afraid that even if I do take this to court, like this will still end badly for me.

Amanda: But I think we had this view of the Supreme Court that it was somehow better or above the other branches. It's somehow… the judicial branch, right, we held them to a higher standard than the other branches of government. And I think if anything that we've learned based on the news and rulings and everything going on, that they have the same corruption going on in the Supreme Court that we see going on with politicians.

Jasmine: But they have lifetime appointments. 

Amanda: I know! So it makes it even worse! So the part where we thought that they were supposed to be above the other branches, they're not above the other branches. In fact, they're just as open to corruption as the other branches, but makes it even worse because of those lifetime appointments.

But then also they're just as open to making decisions for corporations, just like we see politicians do. We see them, you know, rule against buying student loan forgiveness. Where's the ruling against the PPP loan forgiveness for businesses? They're very similar, but we see the rulings totally favor corporations the way that we see politicians do when they're bought by corporations, which we know one Supreme Supreme court justice at least is bought by someone who's quite wealthy.

Rachel: It's not only one. But I also, I want to bring it down to like a very fundamental level. What this means is on election day when it's maybe cold, maybe it's hot, depends on where you live. Maybe you have to wait in line for two hours. This is part of people's calculation. It just seeps into their psyche and maybe they don't feel like standing in line for so long on election day. Maybe it's far away. I mean, all the things. And when this news comes out and this narrative that it doesn't really matter, and frankly I understand if people think that. I don't believe it's true, but I can understand. It's not that I don't believe it's true. I just think there's still tremendous power in everyone's vote. And I do think that voting really matters and we have the chance to change it. 

But the reality is we have to change it. The way it is right now is not great. And we need to bring it back. But we still have that power. That's what I'm trying to say. We still can. But it's hard because people feel really defeated in so many areas of their lives. 

Jasmine: But yeah. Can I counter that by also saying that we got here because of 

elections?

Rachel: A hundred percent. No, I, I totally agree with you. 

Jasmine: Because there were some people who said, “I absolutely cannot stand Trump. I don't like what he stands for. I don't like how he acts. But. If Trump is elected, he could get Supreme Court picks. And so I'm not voting for Trump. I'm voting for Supreme Court picks.”

And unfortunately that actually came to fruition. He followed through on that one. It's really crazy how much it came through. Like it's scary how much that revelation or that, you know, like, you know, hope came to fruition for people, but sometimes we have to get people to understand that sometimes the vote is bigger than just the person that you're voting for. You're voting for the decisions that they get to make that you don't get to vote for. 

Amanda: But it also means like we have to do more to secure our democracy. And that includes getting involved, like we've seen Red Wine & Blue do with collecting signatures in Ohio for reproductive freedom, putting it on the ballot. And they submitted over 700,000 signatures when we only needed 400,000. It was amazing. And the size of that crowd totally matters. And those numbers are accurate. So that was very impressive. And I do want to give a shout out to my friend Paige, who Red Wine & Blue helped train to get signatures. And she got more signatures than anybody else. She did amazing, amazing stuff. Good job Paige and everyone who did work on that.

Jasmine:  I'm so excited about that. I, you know, I think I'm excited about that not just because y'all almost doubled the number of signatures that you needed. I'm excited because that is a testament to, there are people out there that really feel passionately about this and they are doing and they're willing to do what is necessary. Like, do you know how difficult it is to get 700,000 people to do anything? Like, that's a lot. That takes a lot of work. 

Amanda: Every event I went to, every concert, they were there. They did not miss an event in the state.

Rachel: I would like to point out that the Ulein family, who does not live in Ohio, has spent a lot of money trying to get this not to pass. They're also trying, they're the ones responsible for the election in August when everyone needs to vote No in August and Yes in November. And we're going to talk about that a lot. 

Jasmine: Yeah. Well, speaking of millionaires and billionaires backing, you know, astroturf movements, we have been hearing a lot of news about Moms for Liberty. None of it good. They have full blown embraced extremism, their little convention thing that they had or whatever, a little summit, so many references to extremists and dictators and how we should give them a chance and just hear them out. And I'm like, “Why is this your platform?”

Rachel: And why is this the history you want to teach?

Amanda: Yeah, that's what happens when you don't know history. This is where it leads us, which is where they want it to lead us. And I still don't understand why Moms for Liberty gets so much attention. No, I do understand. No, I'm gonna back that up. I do understand. It's super fun to call women extremists and to be like “See, told you all along women are just crazy” when these are not the women who are in the mainstream. These are not most moms. Most moms are not extremists who are connected with the Proud Boys and Hitler. Most moms don't teach their kids to admire Hitler, right? These are not most moms, but somehow this is what they focus on. 

And we were talking in our chat Jasmine, you brought up like the media, like we focus on such crazy stuff, whether it's extremism while we ignore everybody else or whether we talk constantly about what Biden's wearing versus like, “Hey, our economy is actually doing really well compared to other advanced economies.” And everyone's like, “Oh yeah, but Biden didn't wear socks.” Clutch my pearls. 

Jasmine: It's weird. Like socks. Oh my God. Biden, like, was laying on the beach without a shirt on. Is he supposed to wear a suit? And then like, oh my gosh, guess what guys? When Biden is not on the microphone, he uses swear words.  

Rachel: Y'all don't want to know what I say.

Jasmine: It's important for us to, to not give so much focus and attention on extremism and to talk to regular everyday people, which is why I love our podcast and why I love Red Wine & Blue. And so with that, I would like to introduce Darren, who's a dad in Pennsylvania, who's been speaking out against book bans and against extremists on his local school board.

So Darren, welcome to the podcast. 

Darren Laustsen: Hello! 

Amanda: Darren, are you feeling very outnumbered right now? 

Darren: Haha. I can handle it. 

Amanda: I thought you might be able to. 

Jasmine: So we are all moms here and we talk a lot about moms standing up for their kids right to learn. But you've also been fighting the same battles as a dad. So could you tell us more about what first inspired you to start getting involved?

Darren: It actually seems somewhat quaint now, looking back at it, but I started getting involved back in 2021 and it was just right after, obviously, the presidential election and the little thing that happened at the Capitol on January 6th. There was some local news about our school board vice president at the time being at the January 6th rally. That became kind of a big story because this school board member already had a reputation for saying a lot of provocative things on social media. One of the things she was famous for, for saying on Twitter was that there was no such thing as systematic racism or systematic homophobia. She had retweeted some tweets about the kids who were protesting gun violence and, you know, calling them Marxist truants, just this really hyperbolic, crazy language.

And then that obviously raised my eyebrow a little bit, and I decided I'm going to go to a school board meeting just out of morbid curiosity. So I showed up one day to a school board meeting, and I was stunned by how many people were there. I just, just so happened to show up on the same night that this conservative Facebook group called Pennbridge for Educational Liberty decided to all show up to this school board meeting. It was, it was like the local Moms for Liberty, basically. And their public comments were just like, to me, they just sounded insane. They were talking about radical gender theory and critical race theory. And that teachers are indoctrinating our kids. And I was just like, “Are we talking about the same school district here?” Because it's like, it was like they were thinking, they were living in this dystopian fantasy or something. 

And I, I learned later that some of those people coming up giving comments were actually the ones who are running for school board, and I was like oh no. And my daughter was just about to enter first grade. So just, this is like her first walk into the public school district. And I'm like, these are not serious people, first of all. These are people who are trying to make a name for themselves in some weird conservative circles and do some kind of showmanship. And these people do not belong on a school board. So that's when I first started getting involved, reaching out to like local Democrats and saying, you know, how can I, how can I help? 

Amanda: But it sounds like there's a lot of people in Bucks County who do feel like this and do want these policies. It sounded like you had a lot of people showing up and I know that it can be hard to like, speak out because you already know there's people in your community who are ready to push back against you. But you've been outspoken anyway. So what's been the response to the community when you started pushing back? 

Darren: It hasn't been easy. Cause a lot of what I pushed back against was the book banning aspect of it, because you have to focus on something, right? And I focused on the book banning aspect because that's what really offended me the most. They went up there and they were saying that there's a porn problem in the library and that there's this smut and this… they weren't saying these books were age inappropriate. They were calling them pornography. 

Amanda: Yeah. So interesting. Same thing in our school district. 

Darren: And they, and they wouldn't tell us which books they're talking about, which was the crazy part. Because I think if they would have told us which books they're talking about, people would be like, whoa, hold on. Beloved by Tony Morrison is not pornography. Sold by Patricia McCormick is not pornography. Looking for Alaska by John Green is not pornography. Like these are the books that they got removed from the library.

So anyway, you know, I pushed back a lot on that and I’m actually bringing them to court on that issue. Cause they, yeah, they had, we had this whole open records dispute with them because they will actually won't tell us the books that they removed, which is insane. So I have this whole open records case with them and you know, of course I've got a lot of pushback from people online. These, you know, people who think they're tough with a fake screen name calling me a groomer and a, you know, a predator. And yeah. But I think most people are reasonable. And at this point, it's like, I'm so pissed off at this point, like, I don't care.

Rachel: I love it. Darren, you found your people with us. Like you, you fit in. You know, one of the things I have to say, I was I think there are probably people who agree the same way with you and what you're doing in your area, but I was really struck when I visited Bucks County, I heard something that it still sticks with me today. And that was this was in like September, October. I was so sad to hear people say that maybe they put out signs for school board and their neighbors, their friends, said, “Oh, well, you know, we really think it'd be best if we just didn't put out signs. What if we all just pretended–” basically, okay, they didn't say this, but what they're essentially saying is “let's pretend like this doesn't exist,” but they don't want the signs because they don't want the divisiveness. They just want to bury their heads in the sand about what's happening. So have you kind of encountered that? And what do you say when your friends are like, “Maybe we shouldn't, and let's just all have chili cook offs.” 

Darren: Well, I can empathize because I was that guy two years ago.

Jasmine:  I think a lot of people are until they're not.

Amanda: And then you're really not. 

Darren: Exactly. And then it's like a balloon pops, and like you can't even hold yourself back anymore. You know what I mean? Because, you know, once you're in, you're in. And once you start speaking out, you're in it for the long haul. But you know, when you have somebody, when, when they want to bring 1776 curriculum into your school and fire your curriculum supervisors and have some guy from Hillsdale College run your school district, like that's a little too far.

Amanda: Are there other dads that are, you know, with you talking about this stuff that are as involved as you? And I'll just say, as a wife, I find this up there with like, “Hey, you did the dishes. You went to the school board.” Like, yes, I'm into this. So are there other dads who are also into this and kind of seeing that this is something they need to get involved with? Or how do we get other dads involved? 

Darren: It's funny. Cause I see myself as pretty involved, but I'm not even like in the top, you know, 10 dads, I mean, there's dads who live, sleep, breathe, dream about this stuff, which is great. I know with Red Wine and Blue, a lot of your focus is kind of the, like the networking of people and meeting people and engaging with people and making it fun. Which I think is, I think that applies to moms and dads. You know, maybe it's a different network. Maybe it's, you know, maybe there's some overlap. But, you know, just talking to people and, and if you see, like, getting past your, your feelings of being, you know, your social anxieties, I guess you could say. So if you see somebody in public that you know, make sure you, like, make an effort to go out and talk to them and, and invite them out. And I think organically it just kind of grows from there. 

Amanda: Let's go have a beer and a board meeting. 

Darren: Yeah, beer, beer is a great tool.

Amanda: I get it. That's what we do with wine.

Darren: Haha. Beer is a great, we got so many microbreweries around, it’s a great tool to invite somebody out for a few beers, talk about what's going on. And make it fun. I mean, it, it can be, it can be a lot of fun to get involved in this type of stuff, even though it's terrible, what's going on. The strategy, you know, the messaging, all these things are, are, are things that your guy friends could definitely could, definitely could whip them up. 

And finding what people like to do is another thing. Like not everybody is going to be a door knocker, you know, not everybody's going to go out and knock doors. I mean, that's what we need a lot of. But some people are going to be good at writing letters to the editor. Some people are good at, like, being the party master and getting everybody together and having social events. And you know, I have a banned book club and some people love going to the banned book club meetings and talking about that. So I, I don't know. I think it's just kind of keeping, not, not being too narrowly focused on “There's one solution. There's one, one way to get people together.”

Jasmine: I love that. Well, Darren, thank you so much for joining us. I think this is a very important conversation and I'm glad you're a part of it. And you know, thanks for being on this Suburban Women Problem. 

Darren: Thank you so much. It's been an honor. It's nice, nice to meet all of you. 

Amanda: I thought that was so great what Darren was saying about, you know, making friends and finding a way to connect with people and talk about what's important for our kids. And I think it's really important too, because I know research and data shows that men are actually struggling to find friends right now. I think we all are, but men especially are, and this is a great way for men to find friends and to do something for their community and to get involved. And I think we, we also need men's voices here to stand up. 

Jasmine: Yeah, I think a lot of times like when these subjects come up, I, I do know there's a fear amongst men, not all, but there's fear amongst some men that they don't want to say the wrong thing or that they're going to be admonished for, you know, butting into the wrong conversations. But they’re parents! If you're a parent, honestly, you probably have more of a right to be in a conversation than some of the people who are in the conversation aren't parents of students in these school districts. They don't even live in the school district, yet they're over here making policies for your school district. So in that case, yes, you very much should be in the conversation. We need everybody's voice in this because these people are not relenting. The thing I find funny is that extremists have no problem getting on social media and just being absolutely horrible. 

Rachel: They don't seem to have imposter syndrome!

Amanda: Different standards.

Jasmine: But I have people who will be on my pages watching the discourse and they will privately message me and just be like, “you know, I just want to say that I agree with you and I think you're doing the right thing. I just don't want to comment because I don't want to, like, deal with that.” And so I get it. I think a lot of times the people who are on your side are also the people who are less likely to get on social media and just be a complete butthole to everybody. And so it's, it sometimes can feel like you're alone in that way because the loudest people are usually the wrongest people in some of these instances.

Rachel: Good for you for having supporters and friends who are normal. But we do need to be loud sometimes. I mean, that, that is, and I mean, speaking up doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be loud, but speaking up and speaking out in a reasonable way is, it's important. It is really important. I mean, I feel like to say it's important, it's just kind of an understatement, but what's happening in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, it really scares me because it's, it's a place where… to get the wins the first time, okay. To get more wins the second time is going to show a blueprint for how to go forward and a lot of other places.

Jasmine: Yeah, that's exactly how this works. I know for a fact that no one even knew when a school board meeting was in my community until like the pandemic and then everyone became an expert on the school board. 

And like how earlier we were talking about how like the stuff of the Supreme Court, how it's really easy to feel disheartened. And I am going to speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. I have definitely had days where I'm like, “What is even happening and how are we even going to fix this?” And I have been discouraged a lot in the last few weeks. Like I just, I'm like, some days I feel like I just keep getting hit. And every time I try to stand back up, I'm getting hit before I even stand back up again. And so, you know, but I'm going to keep standing up. Like I, I've made the conscious decision that no matter how many times I get hit with this or that, one thing I'm not going to do is stay down. And so I think we just need a lot more people to decide that no matter what's going on, even when it's painful, and it doesn't feel like it's very hopeful that you gotta just keep standing back up. 

Amanda: Also hashtag mom life.

Jasmine: I know!

Rachel: I mean, not to not to bring this to, I don't know, a sad or dark place, but when my mom was diagnosed with glioblastoma, which is brain cancer, she was given 14 to 16 months to live. And it's pretty much the same for everyone. She actually lived 15 months. So, right, bullseye. She didn't just give up. I mean, she did the treatment. It wasn't really that invasive, but she was tired. I mean, she knew she was going to die and very soon. But she still got up every day and she still gave her life meaning during that time. And that is something that really motivates me. So even in the dark days, even when things may, and I know they might not go the way I want them to, you're going to hear my voice. I'm going to make a difference. I am going to say my piece and my part, even if it doesn't change the outcome the way I wanted to, it still makes a difference. And I hope the outcome is that, you know, our democracy survives and that we, and I think that is the likely outcome, but only if we keep working every single day and in every instance. It might not end the way we want, but cumulatively, we make a difference by continuing to speak up and not staying down.

Jasmine: So I think now it's a great time to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have my interview with Fred Joseph.

BREAK

Jasmine: Our guest today is an activist and the New York Times bestselling author of The Black Friend, Better Than We Found It, and Patriarchy Blues. Frederick Joseph, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Fred: It's, it’s absolutely my honor to be here.

Jasmine: So, interestingly, Rachel actually got an opportunity to interview your wife, Porsche, earlier this year about the book you two wrote together, Better Than We Found It. But we wanted to get you back on the pod to talk about Patriarchy Blues, because while we talk a lot about women on the show, because of course we are the Suburban Women Problem, it's also really important to talk about men. 

Fred: Yeah, absolutely. I think that the reality of it is, is anyone with privileges in our society needs to unpack those privileges to do the work of making our society better. And that very much must include men because we do live in a patriarchal society, right? We live in a heteronormative patriarchal society where men hold immense power and until we have, and even when we have you know equity and not just even equality, but real equity, we have to have these conversations to make men want to do the work and then take actionable steps towards change.

Jasmine:  I love that. I love that. So, Frederick, I have a son and of course, like all moms, I worry about my kid. I think we all do. But to be honest, a lot of times when I'm talking to some of my peers, I realize that I have to worry about my Black son in a very specific and often different way than some of my friends do. I worry about things like, how are people going to perceive him? Like he's a, he's tall, he's about 200 pounds. You know, he's a, he's a big guy. He just got his driver's license a few weeks ago, maybe like three weeks ago, and while I am definitely afraid of, you know, anything that can happen on the road, one of the questions I have is what happens if he gets pulled over. And so I would love it if you could speak about how we really can't separate race from gender. 

Fred: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's interesting. Like your son, I'm a bigger person, right? I'm about 6’2’’. I'll add the half. I'm at 6’2’’ and a half and I'm about 230 pounds, right? So, you know, as a Bigger black man in society, there are many stereotypes, tropes, and so forth that are assigned to me. 

And, you know, there's one specific instance, just to kind of give an example of, you know, how the intersections and nuances of gender and race must constantly be in conversation with each other. My wife and I had gone to an event and I had dropped her off home and went to go park the car and it was still daylight out, but it was early evening, like it was kind of dusk. And I was walking home to my apartment and there was a white woman walking a few feet in front of me and I was reaching in my pocket to pull my keys out to walk up to the townhouse that we live in. And as soon as I reached in my pocket, she started screaming, right? She just started yelling for dear life as if… I don't know what necessarily she assumed, I'm sure a myriad of things she might've assumed, but in that moment, you now have the juxtaposition of let's say whatever her trauma response is in being a woman, right? Like maybe, you know, God forbid, maybe something happened or maybe she was assaulted. Who knows? But then you also now have, as a Black man who is having a white woman scream, we do know from history, you know, the likes of people such as Emmett Till, that these situations, you know, can turn into bodily harm for me as well. This could, you know, be a life altering moment.

Jasmine: Deadly.

Fred: Yes, a deadly moment for me, right? So you have to have a conversation there about the two things existing in relation to each other. Because there's growth now that she needs to do. But there's also potentially a level of understanding that I need to have. That two things inform this moment, not just potentially racism, but also potentially trauma within patriarchy, right? So I just don't feel as though we do that enough. The key to growing as a society is being intersectional. I don't think without an intersectional lens that we can do any of the work, right? And, and I think also in part, that's why this book, quite frankly, is a difficult read for some, right? Because I, I think a lot of people purchased Patriarchy Blues expecting me to just like, “men are bad, men are bad, men are bad.” And the reality of it is there's a lot of nuance. 

Jasmine: I was going to say nuance. Yes. 

Fred: Yes. There's a lot of nuance and we are all to be held, not just accountable but held to a standard of evolution, right? In real time. And that doesn't just include one group, right? Like, so, yeah, I, the conversations have to be intersectional.

Jasmine: Absolutely. I was just going to say, I think that a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they want everything to be so black and white. And one of the examples I give is I teach, and I teach anatomy and physiology, and the way we teach it is we divide the organ systems up into a chapter. So you learn about the heart, then you learn about the lungs, and then you learn about the kidneys. Well, the problem is then students think of these things as if they don't all work together. Your heart and your kidneys and your lungs are very intimately associated with each other. And honestly, one doesn't work without the other, but you have to acknowledge that this is a system and it's not individual black and white.

And so intersectionality is important. And oftentimes when people don't understand what I mean by that, that's the example that I give is that, you know, it's easy to talk about them in individual ways, because they each are very complex all by themselves. But you also have to acknowledge that one doesn't work without the other, right?

Fred: I mean, the reality of it is, is that thinking in a binary way robs us of the reality of the human condition, right? 

Jasmine: Absolutely. 

Fred: You know, on any given day I exist in various capacities. I am a Black man. I am cisgender. I am heterosexual. I'm also disabled, right? I'm also someone who now has a certain level of financial privilege, but I grew up in poverty, right? I'm someone who is the first to go to college in my family, but I'm also highly educated and have many degrees, right? So there's all these things that rival each other, but they're also intertwined with each other and they also mirror each other and they also exist opposite to each other. They clang and bang and they, and they seem contradictory. And I think that that's the issue for some people that some things seem contradictory, but they're not, they're just a part of being human. 

And so I ask people constantly, you know, to take stock of your privilege, take stock of your identities, and to, and to then try to do the work, right? Don't step into anti patriarchal rhetoric unless you understand where you exist in a patriarchal sense. Don't step into anti racism unless you understand the privileges within, you know, constructs of racism. as an example. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. So Frederick, there's still a lot of progress that needs to be made, but we can't overlook the fact that we really have come a long way on gender equality. Again, still a long way to go, but we have, we're, we're getting there. But that has made some men, especially white men, actually feel like they're being left behind. When you're accustomed to privilege, you just talked about this, when you're accustomed to privilege, sometimes equality can feel a lot like oppression. And so how can we counter that? Like, because the far right is definitely capitalizing on that, those feelings right now. And we, we need to have a good counter to that. So what do you say? 

Fred: I think that we are all lessened by being in silos, right? We are all lessened by not having each other to push us to be our best, because the reality of it is, and I say this to white men all the time, I said, I went to a class about a year ago, and I said, “Do you all feel like you're really good at something?” And all these white guys said, “yes.” These young white men said yes. And I said, “okay, how do you know you're good?” They're like, “Oh, because I'm better than the people around me.” I'm like, “Is it important to be good?” And they said, “It is important to me to be good.” I'm like, “So then wouldn't you want the most competition possible? So you know that you're really good, right?” 

Because the reality is what has happened for 400 years in this nation and just globally in various constructs of patriarchy is that only certain people were invited to the table to even be able to test whether they could be good or not. And so mediocrity in certain ways became the standard. So now what happens when you have women such as yourself or, or women you know, such as the people at Red Wine and Blue, so on and so forth, saying like, “Okay, great. So now I'm entering the room. I'm not entering the room to inherently take your place. I'm entering the room so that we can decide who's better, right? So if you're still better, great. Now you are actually great. Now you have proved that you're great. Are you afraid of proving your greatness? Because you kind of know inherently that you've only gotten by on mediocrity.”

And the funny thing is, that message resonated so much with these young white men. And I don't know if it's narcissism, if it's ego, what it might be. But everyone's like, “Oh, good point. Yeah, we need to invite everybody in because I want to show how good I, you know, like people want to show what they've got,” right? Like, and I say that to right wingers all the time. “What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of showing what you've got because you don't really have anything?”

Jasmine:  But then to go a little bit further, when let's say a person like me, a person who they have been told that they should be better than me, and then I walk into the room and I am better, then what? Because that's when they start to feel the oppression. That's when they start to say, “well, she's only here because of this, or she's only here because of that.” And I'm like, “but I just showed that I have the ability to do something as well as you are even better than you.” 

Fred: You know, it's interesting. I'm gonna say something that's gonna be very unpopular. I think especially in 2023, I'm more interested in building coalitions with people who want to move the needle like that because like we all fall on a spectrum of needing to grow. And then there are those of us who have no interest in growing. So a lot of my work is not geared towards necessarily you know, the, the Ron DeSantises of the world. It's not geared necessarily towards the Donald Trumps of the world. 

I think I'm more so, I do the work that's geared towards, you know, the, the, the, who Bill Clinton used to be, right? Because the reality of it is, at one point, and Bill Clinton has said this himself, he's like, “hey, I didn't view race in this way, and I am different in 2016 and 2020 and in 2023 than I was in 1996.” I mean, Joe Biden's another grand example of this, right? Like Joe Biden is not the person that he was pre Obama. He's not the person that he, you know, is post Obama and won't be the person that he will probably be in the next primary. And those are the people I'm interested in working with. And I don't think that you have to give up on people, but your focus should be on building a coalition with the people who are interested in any capacity for growth.

Jasmine: I love that. All right. So I'm a, like I said, I'm a boy mom, I'm honestly a young man mom, I mean, he's like, he's almost 18. And so what advice do you have for listeners who are raising sons like myself? And how can we set them up for success and also make them compassionate and empathetic human beings in our society?

Fred: So I think it starts very, very early, right? You know, as cliche as it might be, like representation does truly matter, especially for like young, young children, right? Like my views of women started early. My mother, my mother's the person who taught me how to play basketball, prime example, right? My mother told me how to play basketball. My mother also taught me how to like throw my fists up to defend myself, you know, whatever. And my mother was the person in my life who existed in all these ways that we often assign to men. And ironically, it was the men, my uncles in my life, who were much more of the emotional creatures, right? So I just got lucky in that way. But it changed the outcome of who I ended up becoming, right? And so if that's the case, we need to actually implement that strategically with young people. 

I was watching Ted Lasso recently, and I just absolutely loved that show. And there's like a feminist narrative in the show about these two women who were just really good friends and who were just so deeply supportive of each other. And I was watching it with my little cousin. And I said, “What do you take from this?” Right? I'm asking him questions in real time. “What are you taking from these two women being friends?” He's like, “Oh. They're not much different from me and my boys.” Ask the questions, make sure they're taking it all in.

Jasmine: I love that. I love that. I think that's a good important point. It's not like rocket science or anything like that. It's really just having conversations that for whatever reason we've decided we don't get to have with our sons anyway, like just have those conversations. 

Fred: I mean, we, as a society, we silo based on gender, we silo based on sexual orientation, we silo based on all sorts of things that are actually just social constructs, right? There is literally no reason why if you're going to the ballet, why are you bringing your daughter and not bringing your son? It makes no sense, right? My mother brought me when I was a kid like she would go get her nails done and she would go, you know, get her eyebrows done all sorts of things. I would go, right? like my wife would tell you I'm a huge fashion snob. Like a lot of times my wife will actually let me pick her outfits out or go shopping with her because that's what I grew up on. It doesn't make me any less of a man. It makes me someone who's interested in women's fashion.

Jasmine: Right. And versatile! I mean, honestly, that's probably secretly lots of women would love to have a husband that understands, you know, getting your nails done, how painful it is to get your eyebrows done and also fashion. So that's great. Like that's, that's awesome. We need more of you. 

So I also want to ask, do you have any thoughts about how we can talk to the dads in our lives as well? So whether we're talking about the fathers of our own children or other men that we know, especially when it comes to like this parents’ rights, you know, quote, parents rights stuff. I know it affects them too. So how can we bring the dads into the conversation? Cause everything's like moms for this, moms for that, but the dads care too. So how do we bring them in? 

Fred: I think that's such an important point, because I do think that with the advent and growth of social media and the beautiful work that a lot of women have done to be in community with each other around very positive things, there are times where it's aired on, you know, kind of like the lunch table, like boys sit over there and girls sit over here. And I'm like, well, also, the men in your life need some of that work too, right? And it's not placing the onus on women to do the work. It's, “Hey, you as a man are allowed to also do these things. You're allowed the healing journey. You're allowed the self care journey.” Because that ultimately benefits your child. It ultimately benefits your partner. It ultimately benefits everyone in your life. 

So those are the conversations that I think are necessary for fathers, for husbands, for, for boyfriends, whomever, right. It's like, go on these journeys of growth, right? The same journeys of growth that I've, I've seen women, especially like Black and brown women have just like, kind of paved the way you know, in, in recent years of those types of journeys. Go on them as well, right? Like if, if your wife is, you know reading Brene Brown or something like that, then read Brene Brown! Like, if you, you know, if you see Brene Brown working, then you read Brene Brown as well, right? There's no problem with that, you know? So that's, that's the conversation I think needs to be had is how can you grow and heal as well? Because it doesn't just benefit you, it benefits all of us that are in proximity to you. 

Jasmine: I love that. Oh, I love that so much. All right, Frederick, this has been such a great conversation. Honestly, I could keep going on and on. But we are on a time crunch, so I am going to move on to one of my favorite parts of the show, which is our rapid fire questions. So are you ready? 

Fred: Let's do it. Let's do it. 

Jasmine: All right. I'm going to start by asking you the same rapid fire questions that we asked your wife. So I'm, I'm curious to see how y'all's answers compare to each other. All right, here we go. What frequently banned book should be at the top of our reading list right now?

Fred: Beloved Toni Morrison. 

Jasmine: Love it. All right. If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? 

Fred: I would freeze time and try to live in the moments that bring joy. 

Jasmine: What's your favorite place to go on a date? 

Fred: Ooh, the movies. 

Jasmine: And finally, as a bonus question, who is your favorite pop culture dad?

Fred: Ooh, Uncle Phil from the Fresh Prince. Who was not, and he was especially a great dad because he wasn't a blood dad for everyone who he was a dad to. And you don't have to be a blood dad to be somebody's dad. 

Jasmine: Yes, Uncle Phil is awesome. I like it. All right. So that is the end of our rapid fire questions. So Frederick, tell everyone where they can go to find out more about you and your work. 

Fred: Yeah, absolutely. So everyone can follow me on Instagram. I very rarely use Twitter anymore, thanks to some, you know, person who thinks that he's a god. Yeah, but everyone can follow me on Instagram at Fred T. Joseph. I'm also on TikTok at Frederick T. Joseph. And you know, if you want to read some of my writing, my books are available everywhere. I also have a Substack, which I use weekly to write essays about all sorts of things happening around us in the world. 

Jasmine: I love that. Awesome. All right. Well, this was amazing. Absolutely amazing. Again, I could go on and on. But I just want to say thank you so much, Frederick, for joining us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Fred: Ah, thank you so much for having me. Everyone have a great day.

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Amanda: Welcome back, everyone. Jasmine, I really loved your interview with Fred Joseph, and I really loved the discussion about the intersection with race and gender, and how all of this is really, you know, more complicated. The human condition is complicated. We're not all a bunch of ones and zeros with everything, whether it's gender or race or anything. This is a complicated discussion that's an important one to have. And also the empathy that he has of also thinking about, you know, when someone has a reaction to him, the empathy was huge.

Jasmine: Yeah, it's amazing because the story he told about basically, you know, him walking and the white woman, like, literally, he was just behind, like, he was just walking in the same direction and she got scared and started screaming. And in that moment, he was afraid he wasn't doing anything wrong, but now he's afraid, but he also at the same time empathized with her. And like, you know, she's a woman walking along, like, you know, there was just all these things. And I don't know that I would have been able to be so empathetic.

But I mean, it's true. Like she might've had a trauma that made her afraid of being alone and some man being behind her, maybe him being Black had nothing to do with it. But at the same time, him being a Black man and a white woman screaming, this turns into a dangerous situation for him where people automatically assume he was doing something to her because that's just the way our society usually views Black men. 

Amanda: I think we could all use a little more empathy the way that he showed there. Just what might that other person be thinking? And how can I approach this in a more empathetic way? I think our world would be totally different.

Jasmine: Or just acknowledge nuance. Like, I think that's something that a lot of people like are not willing to do is acknowledge nuance and understand, you know, that maybe two things can be true at the same time. 

All right. So now I think is a great time for us to transition to our Toast to Joy. And I know we haven't talked in a while, so I'm happy to hear about some things that are going well in y'all's lives. So Rachel, I'll start with you. What is your Toast to Joy?

Rachel: Well, my, my big Toast to Joy is that my daughter is back from camp, she had a great time, and my husband is back from Ukraine and he's safe. And we are in New York City right now with my brother and his family. We gave them a trip to New York City for the holidays and they're finally able to take it now. And so it's been a lot of fun. My niece and nephew, the older ones have been here before, but my youngest niece, she's eight and she has never been here. And she is just a true joy. And I just love eight year olds and how they see the world. So that is my Toast to Joy. 

Jasmine: They are fun. Like they, I love that age of discovery where things that like I think are just normal, they're like, “Oh!” 

Amanda: That's cute. So my toast is actually similar. I just got back from a little vacation where I got to meet up with a lot of my extended family. We had lots of cousins and aunts and uncles, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, gramps, grandpas, like tons of my family were there and it was a whole lot of fun. And it was fun to get to meet up with them and it was really fun because I have a cousin who's a little bit older than me because my aunt is a little bit older than my mom. So we're like not, not super similar age wise, but I always thought she was like the coolest cousin ever. And it was really cool to see my three kids think that her three kids were like the coolest older cousins ever. And so I feel like you have these thoughts of like, “oh, it's more fun when they're similar ages.” But I was like, no, no, no. This was more fun.

Jasmine: I love hanging out with cousins. I love family reunions. I think I've been volun-told to be on our family reunion committee next year. 

Amanda: Oh, fun. 

Jasmine: Oh I don't think that's fun.

Amanda: Oh, sorry. Condolences then.

Jasmine: I wanna go, but I don't wanna like organize it. 

Amanda: That's fair. 

Jasmine: I look forward to, like, actually doing the part where we actually get to hang out, because that's always fun.

Amanda: It is a lot of fun. All right. Jasmine, what is your Toast to Joy? 

Jasmine: All right. So my Toast to Joy is to, I've been doing a lot of different fun things, and so this is kind of a weird Toast to Joy, because it was actually excruciating, but I decided to run my neighborhood 5k. 

Amanda: Oh no, and it's been hot and like the hottest week ever. We didn't even talk about how it’s the hottest week ever.

Jasmine: This route, whoever made this 5k route, is insane. And no offense, if you're listening right now. But it was treacherous. The number of hills that we had to climb and not little hills, like long quarter mile long uphill climbs, in this 5k was insane, but I finished and I'm really excited that I finished and it was a fun thing to do with my neighbors. So that is my Toast to Joy, to running my first 5k in like, shoot, almost a decade. And finishing it. 

Amanda: Yay.

Jasmine: So thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. Before we go, I wanted to mention that the podcast app Stitcher is going to be shutting down in August. We've heard from a few listeners who are concerned about where they can listen after that. But don't worry, we're available on a lot of other podcast apps. You can listen to us on Apple, Overcast, Spotify, Google, or you can just visit our website at theswppod.com. 

Thanks again for listening and we'll see you again next week on another episode of the Suburban Women Problem.