Kindness is a Power Move (with Karen Walrond)

This week on the pod, we were so excited to talk to Karen Walrond. She’s the author of books like The Lightmaker’s Manifesto, Radiant Rebellion, and In Defense of Dabbling. Her words about the importance of kindness, self-compassion, activism, and even anger were exactly what we needed to hear coming out of this past weekend of joyful protests. 

Our mission here is to help women make a difference in their communities without losing their shit, and the subtitle of The Lightmaker’s Manifesto is actually “How To Work For Change Without Losing Your Joy,” so clearly we had to get her on the show as soon as we could! 

In the interview, she emphasized the natural rhythm and cadence to activism. Anger can be a useful spark, but kindness and love are what keep the fire going. Rest and recreation (re-creation) aren’t optional — they’re necessary to keep getting up every day and fighting for our values. When our neighbors need to take a breath, we can speak up in their place. And when we need a moment to rest, we can trust that they’ll step in for us. “Activism” might sound overwhelming, but much like the No Kings rallies, it isn’t actually scary. It can be a beautiful intersection of self-care and community.

As Karen says, “Joy comes from intention, self-compassion is a non-negotiable, and kindness is a power move.” We couldn’t agree more.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

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Transcript

LaFonda: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Lafonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue.

Katie: I'm Katie Paris, and I'm the founder of Red Wine and Blue. 

LaFonda: So Katie, in a few minutes we are going to be joined by the amazing author Karen Walrond. But let's start by checking in. How are you feeling? 

Katie: I'm pretty excited we're gonna speak to Karen Walrond. I had listened to her in the past and her being someone who has really spent so much of her energy on exploring the intersection of activism and joy, when I feel like, golly, LaFonda, we just gotta reach for it every moment, don't we? I think I said good morning to you last Friday by being like, “Hey, it's Friday. Let's make this a joyful day.” And then we had a lot of stressful shit happen– 

LaFonda: Because why not? It was a Friday. Why not just throw a couple bombs into a Friday? Because that's how it goes. 

Katie: And then at the end of the day I was like, what did I say about joy?

LaFonda: You literally called and were like, let's introduce some joy. And then Friday was like, actually, let's introduce a few bombs. 

Katie: Friday said, hold my beer. 

LaFonda: And we were like, let's just, let's talk about joy on Monday. Let's go.  

Katie: Exactly. We just, we decided we needed Karen here to help. That's all. 

I'll say, my weekend was totally exhausting, but also I got me some joy for sure. We had that conversation last week where you and our guest, Jennifer... I heard a message that white women need to stand up and show up at these protests and make it safe for Black women and others for whom it's not as immediately possibly safe for under these circumstances. So LaFonda, you know I'm an overachiever, right? 

LaFonda: Uh-huh. Did you go to some rallies this weekend? 

Katie: I, I might've gone to three throughout the region. It was very important to me to get to at least one in a town that Trump won. I just wanted to go and show up for our sisters in these places where it can feel harder to not feel alone. And of course that thing happened where I thought I was showing up to give them something, but they gave me so much more. 

I rolled into town for one at 10:00 AM. Well, it was 10:05. The rally was to start at 10. There was already hundreds and hundreds of people there. I got to roll in, honking my horn and support and have everyone cheering. And I was just yeah, tears of joy. And people were just so kind to each other and it just felt good to feel that connected with folks who… it is such a powerful reminder, you can see with your own eyes, you're not alone, but really feel it too.

So then I went and did it two more times, once with my family in downtown Cleveland, and then I also got out to another town. So I went to Parma and Medina as well. 

LaFonda: Yeah, I was glad to see so many people out. I mean, of course there was a lot of talk about who should be on the front line at these rallies, right? Like we, we talked to Jennifer last week about who should be there and who should be doing other things in the background. I think we've had these conversations a lot over the last couple of weeks, like finding your place in the village.

And I think about these things a lot in regard to these rallies and these protests and there's been a lot of talk about mutual aid and what your place is. Specifically like, my place, being a Black woman, I am not going to go to a No Kings rally. I'm not gonna go to a protest. But where are the things that I can contribute to these moments that make sure that we're all sort of standing together without putting my Black body on the line? 

And so I was looking at all of the, of course I love to scroll through Facebook and see all of the signs that people are making, but I was really excited to see how many people were out in the streets and standing up and just saying that the things we're experiencing are not okay. Of course, I scrolled by your posts and saw that you were indeed an overachiever, and I was like, “of course Katie would not just go to one, but she would go to three protests this week.” Or rallies? Are we calling them rallies or are we calling them protests?

Katie: I mean, they're just so positive. And I think rally feels right. And I think that the thing I saw people saying both on social media and in real life was just this, this fills my cup. 

I wanna talk about this with Karen, how we sustain activism. Cause I think some, some people come like, “okay, I'm so angry, I wanna get involved.” But then how, how do we sustain it? And I think what I took away from this weekend is this is gonna help people go, go, go for a while longer. Feeling that sense of togetherness, that sense of community, that sense of kindness. I just found so many people, the one I had my kids at, people were helping me keep track of 'em in the crowd. 

And in Medina I was trying to get a photo to really capture the magnitude of the crowd. And I had people come up and go, “Hey, do you wanna go stand over there? I'll help take that photo. Isn't this great?” And it's like everybody's… there's no strangers. And it was great to see that several more million people participated this time than last time, and yeah, there is a role for everyone. This is one thing to do and I think it's sustaining for a lot of people who do it, and we just gotta keep inviting our friends. 

LaFonda: I feel like it was a visual or an actual representation of what we talk about every week. Like it's fun, it's joyful, it's community, but it's also, it's purposeful. Everyone is there for a reason. We're there to show that this, what is happening right now, is not okay and that there are more of us than there are of them. But we can have a good time out here. We can, I saw people helping each other and laughing together and I love a good comical petty rally sign.

Katie: And so many American flags.

LaFonda: So many. 

Katie: I think there is such a sense too that – and I think I used to feel this way too – that “oh, that's hardcore. Getting out there, going to that. That's super intimidating. That's for people who are experienced at this kind of thing or who are just ready to rumble.” But that's not what I saw. I saw people who were really hungry for connection. And wanting to feel a sense of togetherness, and hope and affirmation of their values. People who are tired of hearing these messages from Trump and our federal government that somehow expressing a desire for your country to live up to its ideals is somehow not American. When that's, that's the whole, that's the whole thing. 

I'm really eager to talk to Karen about the role that she sees of protest within activism and with, as a source of potential joy. Does it help, how, how does it work in terms of sustaining us in this long-term fight versus other forms of self-care and self-compassion and how that sustains us in the fight. I feel she's just this expert at this whole intersection of… what is joy? What is happiness? What is activism? What is the role of anger in all this? I just wanna pull it all apart.  

LaFonda: Which is actually what I was gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you, so we left on Friday, and I know both of us left Friday just really drained just because work can take a lot out of you and we had just like some really intense conversations just about work stuff. And then Saturday you went to the rallies. My question for you was like, how did you feel Saturday, like afternoon, evening, coming home, did you feel more energized? Did you feel more empowered? Did you feel like you had more momentum? Like how did you feel leaving those rallies on Saturday? 

Katie: I did feel more energized. I did, I got to connect with Red Wine & Blue members out there. There is something to be said for joy and kindness as a source of fuel. So yes, it was definitely energizing and I thought it was really cool to go to places that are both towns Trump won, Cleveland, a city he very much lost, but to feel the same supportive energy regardless. So I think it also just reminded me of how unified we actually are, in this country. And this is in the state of Ohio that voted for Trump twice. So yeah, to be able to feel that in, in such different parts of my region was, was really positive for me. Did you do anything this weekend to fill your cup?

LaFonda:  I did do things to fill my cup. I, after I, I spun out on Friday just personally and professionally, I think I had some baby meltdowns. What did I do? It's crazy how fast the weekend goes, that it's like Monday and you're like, I don't know, was there a weekend? I was just here with you just two minutes ago. 

I did a 90 minute hot yoga, personal hot yoga. I did it in a Hotworx sauna, which is like 125 degrees. And then I had a 90 minute massage, which was great. 

Katie: Oh my God. Well done!

LaFonda: That was it. That was all yesterday though. I did some gardening. I did some, I'm, I'm learning to play in the dirt. So if you know me deeply, you know that playing in the dirt is not my thing. I don't like bugs. I live in Texas. There are scorpions, there are wolf spiders. I'm not someone who loves critters. But I have been gardening. I had a, a baby garden in April, and then I just started my fall garden. So I've planted some greens and some lettuce and some carrots, and I just… it's like magic, to start seeing the sprouts pop up. And so all of my little sprouts have started to pop up, so I'm really excited to see them popping out. 

Katie: Look at you!

LaFonda: And so I've spent some time playing in the dirt this weekend too.  

Katie: Good for you. I'm gonna commit right now to playing in the dirt some next weekend.

LaFonda: Take your shoes off. Do a little grounding, play in the dirt. 

Well, we are gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we will be joined by Karen Walrond. 

BREAK

Katie: Okay, today we are very excited to be joined by Karen Walrond. She is the author of The Lightmaker's Manifesto, Radiant Rebellion, and her newest book, it's called In Defense of Dabbling: The Brilliance of Being a Total Amateur. Karen, welcome to the pod.

Karen Walrond: It is always such an honor to be here. I love you guys. I love everything you all do, so thank you so much for letting me be a part of this. 

Katie: Oh my gosh. All right, well, whenever someone who I really, really admire says something that, I get really excited and trip up my words. So we're just gonna try to keep it cool here. I do want to talk a little bit about the Light Maker's Manifesto, because this is the first time I've ever gotten to talk to you about it directly. And so the subtitle, of course, is How to Work for Change Without Losing Your Joy. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Katie: And that's basically like a polite version of our mission here, which is how to make a difference without losing your shit. 

Karen: Yeah. And it's getting harder and harder, isn't it?

Katie: Well, that's my question. I mean, so the book came out in 2021, so we are talking COVID times. We are talking politically stressful times. We’re talking, if you've got kids all the shutdown times, and whether you do or not, the impact that had on every person in America. Do you see that book is actually more vital since you published it in 2021?

Karen: Do I think it's more vital? That's a really interesting question because I, I will tell you, when I signed the deal to write that book and began writing, it was March of 2020. So when I signed the deal, George Floyd was still alive. Breonna Taylor was still alive. The world was about to go into lockdown. And I just remember 2020 at the time feeling like things could not possibly get any worse. I remember thinking this is madness. Like, what? What's happening? People are just being killed and people are dying, and poor doctors and and all the people who were taking care of us… 

I'm feeling a lot of that too right now. When I look at what's happening in the world, I'm like, it could not possibly get any worse. So I don't know if it's more necessary now, or it just continues to be as necessary, right? I do, I feel like I've been in a heightened sense of, “oh my God, we have to do something” for the last five years really. And so I, I think it's as relevant as ever for sure. But I, I don't wanna discount the fact that when the book came out, we were in a pretty crazy time as well. Right. That was a bananas time. And so yeah. I would say as much. 

Katie: And it's helpful to, as much as every single day feels like a new, unprecedented time, to remember that this has been going on for a while. It's gonna go along a while longer. And that's why we need you, Karen. That's why we need you, Karen, because we gotta learn to get some rhythm here if we're going to be sustained in this.

Karen: Yeah, for sure. And I will say, one of the women who I interviewed in that book, 'cause I interviewed a lot of different activists, um, in the book, and one of the inter people I interviewed, her name is Valerie. And she's a, um, she's a Sikh American activist, and she's a filmmaker and all this other stuff. And she said something to me that I think is both horrifying but also freeing. 

And what she said was, “Karen, we're not going to see the success of everything we're fighting for in our lifetime. Like in our lifetime, we're not gonna get to the point where all immigrants have rights, the environment has been healed, there's no bigotry or homophobia or any of, like… that's not gonna happen in our lifetime.” Which is horrifying. But she went on by saying, “But our job isn't to solve it in our lifetime. Our job is to take the torch from the people who've been working for all of this that came before us, and take it for as far and as long as we possibly can, and hand it off to the people who are coming after us. And the only way that we can do that with any sort of longevity is to stay tethered to joy and self-compassion.” 

Like, we have to stay tethered to that because that's the only way the work gets done. And that, I think is the, is the thing we have to remember, Like as we're sitting here freaking out about everything that's going on in the world, remember it's not, don't, don't spiral into a sense of hopelessness because you feel like it's not being fixed right now. It's now where we go, “okay, I've gotta stay tethered to joy and I've gotta have a practice of joy and a practice of self-compassion and a practice of community and a practice of love, and a cadence of doing that so that I can continue to replenish myself to take the torch farther.” So I, I, and it's something that it's very hard to remember, but I think it behooves us to remember it as much as possible. 

LaFonda: I love hearing “the practice.” The practice of joy and the practice of self-compassion. I like hearing it as a practice 'cause it makes me feel like it's less like I have an end goal in mind. And more like, “today I'm gonna get up and do that thing that gets us a little bit closer and it doesn't lie all on me.” It's not all just on us today. It's our job as a community to help us get a little bit closer. I think that makes it feel a little bit less stressful. 

Karen: Sure, sure. And I think, you know, I think there's this sort of idea that, you know, if we tether, if we stay tethered to joy or we stay tethered to compassion or love, that's somehow giving up or, or weak, or turning away from the problem. And I like to think of doing that is actually how we remind ourselves what the problem is, right? By staying tethered to joy, it reminds us that this is what we want for everybody. When we stay tethered to love, this is why we're fighting, 'cause we want everybody to have access to this. We want everybody to have access to a feeling of safety and love and joy and connection. And that's why we're doing it. 

Because if we just sit here and just like, freak out about what's happening, I mean, what is the point? And it also sort of takes us off the goal, like our eyes off the goal, right? I'm thinking about when I was teaching my daughter to drive and I think all new drivers do this, right? She kept veering to the right and I kept saying, “El, don't look at the front of the bonnet of the car. Look where you're going. Look ahead.” Once you do that and the car will straighten up, right? As long as you look where you're actually trying to go. And of course it did. And I think that's the reason we have the practice of all of those things is because it takes us off the bonnet of the car and looking to where we're trying to go. 

Katie: So can we get to breast tactics here? Like the how, if you're a me, a little bit of the type A person in the world who really believes it and wants to will it into existence… can we talk about the how? 

And what I love about this too is that I actually feel like there's something interesting going on with your most recent book in combination with Lightmaker's Manifesto and the latest book on Dabbling, and how important this is for us to have these amateur advocations or hobbies. You talk about that being so important in these really challenging times as something to fuel us and keep us going. And then in Lightmaker’s Manifesto, you talk about the importance of joy to sustain our activism and you give us a lot of insight in terms of how to find joy within the activism because joy is rooted in meaning and purpose. 

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Katie: How do we do this? Like, how do, how does it all fit together? I need, I need like the, the concrete. I'm very linear. Help me. 

Karen: So, so the way, first of all, I will just say that this last book that I wrote, In Defense of Dabbling, I actually sat down thinking I was just gonna write a light book about hobbies. I did not think of it as anything bigger than that. By the end of the book, I had totally revised my opinion about hobbies.

And I like to think of this book as sort of the last in a trilogy of books that I've written, with the Lightmaker’s Manifesto first, Radiant Rebellion, which was about joy, joyful aging, and how to fight ageism, right? Taking that, that mantle on in activism. And then this current book, right? And one of the things that I say all the time is “Joy comes from intention, self-compassion is a non-negotiable, and kindness is a power move.” Right? And I feel like that, like I say, that's the way you make light, right? Is you remember those things. Joy comes from intention, self-compassion is a non-negotiable, and kindness is a power move. And each of the books sort of talk about that. 

So in The Lightmaker's Manifesto, which is actually the “kindness is a power move" part of that trilogy, it's really about not only, first of all, abandoning the idea that activism must mean having police dogs set on you. That activism can be in many different forms. And the way that we do it and stay tethered to joy is we think about, first of all, what are we activated around? What's the thing that's calling us to do something? But then also think about what are the things that I love to do? What are the things that I have a gift for, and how can I use that in service of the thing that I'm activated around? And when you have, when you do the thing that you love to do already in service of activism, that's where the joy arising from meaning and purpose can come from. 

The other thing that I think is really important to do, and I talk about this in the Lightmaker's Manifesto, is the idea of having a cadence of rest, of, of self-compassion. And that can be in the form of rest and recreation. Re-creation, right? That when we have this cadence in our life where we go, go, go, and then we rest. Then we go, go, go, and we rest. Right? That is how we build up the energy to keep, go, go, go, go going, right? And this new book talks about how having a hobby, meaning having, I even hate the word hobby. An avocation. A thing that you love to do that has nothing to do with profit or productivity or perfectionism, right? It has nothing to do with that. This is just the thing that gives you joy. The thing that you can't help but do, whether it could be sewing, it could be knitting, it could be baking sourdough bread as many people did during the pandemic, right? It could be any of those things.

When you have a cadence of going back to that and all you're doing, it's just focusing on what it gives you and it helps feed your curiosity and your mindfulness and it allows you to connect with people maybe, or maybe it lets you tap into wonder and awe that cadence of doing that thing. It's sort of like your yoga or your meditation practice or all of those things that help refuel you, recreate you, so that you can come back and do the work.

Katie: I have never thought about recreation like that. I think I'm just gonna start pronouncing it differently. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Katie: “Gotta do some re-creational activities, excuse me.” 

Karen: Exactly. That's, you gotta recreate yourself so that you can keep going back. So I really think of and then of course the aging joyfully thing, like aging is living and living is aging, right? Like if you're breathing, you're aging and you're living. And I think that that's what it's, it's about, it's really sort of being mindful the whole time. No matter what you're activated around about, am I taking care of myself? Am I refueling myself? Am I resting? Am I recreating, right? Am I doing these things so that I can go back in and be of service and do what it takes to help move that torch? 

Katie: Yeah. And seeing that rhythm to it. 

Karen: Yeah. 

Katie: Because I think so often we think like, “okay, I am gonna run over here and do this. Okay, now I'm gonna tap out.” Instead, recognizing that it's all one thing.

Karen: It's all one thing. And it's also. We, we know that the, the earth, right? This is the woowoo part of our talk, but that everything on the earth is cyclical, right? Like, the moon waxes and waves, the tides rise and fall, waves come and go. And even the way that we, we sleep, we wake, we sleep, we wake, we breathe in and out and in and out. 

Like we are part of nature and this idea that we need to go, go, go, go, go to burnout is literally contrary to the way that we are optimized to work, right? We are optimized to have that cycle, and we are so, I think, arrogant to think, “no, no, no, I don't have to, I'll rest when I'm dead.” Like that, that sort of idea of it is just literally counter to the way we are optimized to work. We are optimized to rest and recreate. Like Tricia Hersey, right? “Rest is resistance.” Like that is rery, very, very, very real. That rest is part of what we do. Recreation. Recreation is part of what we do in order to be optimal in the resistance.

LaFonda: I mean, you're speaking my language. I say this all the time. I hate the term “booked and busy." I hate it. I hate it so much. right, you can be booked, you can also be busy, but if you are constantly going all the time, you are never giving your body and your mind and your spirit and your energy time to rest. You are not doing anyone any good. And I think, I read in In Defense of Dabbling, you said you blame hustle culture. It's just, there's too many things happening all the time, and you're not, you're not doing anyone any good.

And I love the permission to recreate. The permission to find something, even if you're not good at it, even if you just are trying it the one time. Like I put some, we were just talking about gardening. I put some seeds in the dirt and was like, let's see what happens. 

Karen: Let's see. There we go!

LaFonda: We'll find out whether I did it in the spring, some onions and nothing popped out, and I was like, well. We'll try it again next time. See what happens. But you don't always have to be going because it's not, it's not what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be resting so we can get up and do it again tomorrow. 

Karen: Absolutely. And I, I would, I would even go back and say, I'm not giving you permission. I mandate it. Like, it's not about a permission to rest. Like you, you have to do it. 

LaFonda: You have to. 

Karen: And doing anything else, frankly, I think is doing a disservice to the cause. Yeah, I, I really do believe that. 

Katie: I think a part of what feeds into this hustle culture mentality around activism is that people get involved because they're angry about something, they're so pissed off about something. It's a huge problem. And the problem feels so huge. So if we don't push, push, push, push, push, what are we even doing? And you have, I have heard you say anger has a role. 

Karen: A hundred percent. I'm very pro anger. I really am. Anger is the, it's the spark.

Katie: Well, and it's natural, right? You said this is all about, if we're a part of nature and doing what the tides are doing and coming and going with the seasons, like it is a… we can't like try to repress that, I don't think. 

Karen: No, I don’t think so. That's what I say a lot is, anger is a powerful spark, but it's dangerous fuel. Anger is what motivates us to make a change. And so that's why I'm like, I am very, very, very pro anger. And I think, people love to talk about, nonviolent and, like Gandhi and, and Martin Luther King or even, even Jesus. But even Jesus flipped tables, right? Like anger motivates us. 

The problem with anger is that if we stay in it, and if we're fueled by anger as opposed to using it as a spark, is that we can end up, I think, sort of devolving into the worst aspects of ourselves, right? We can devolve into the sort of behavior that 

we're fighting against. What is it Audre Lorde said, “that the tools of the master can never be used against the oppressor.” Right? Like you, you have to be able to figure out how to dissipate the anger, right? Use it as that spark, but then use as the fuel your things like your core values, things like your integrity, things like your determination, things like even your joy and your community and your connection. Like you have, you have to all of those other things in order to make the cause happen, right?

Think of it sort of as a… I was about to use a car metaphor, but I don't know jack about cars, but— 

Katie: That's okay. It's just a hobby. You don't have to be an expert at it. 

Karen: Haha. But this is the way I understand how petrol cars, not electrical cars, but petrol cars work, right? Like that's what a spark plug does, is it adds the spark. If we're not getting angry anymore, then we don't have that motivation to just keep going. Right. The problem is that the spark isn't the thing that's keeping the car going, right? It's, it's the thing that ignites the engine and then the fuel comes, and then the… I mean, I'm, I'm a civil engineer, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but just go with it for me.

Katie: That was a very good car analogy! 

Karen: Or even a, a fire, right? Like, just think of a campfire, right? And I use a building of fire metaphor in the Lightmaker's Manifesto. Like, you light the spark, you've got your fire going. The anger part, I think in a lot of ways, is that spark. And then you do the oxygen or whatever else that you need to do in order to fan the flames and keep the flame going. But if it dies out, trust there's enough sparks in the world to get it going again. I don't know about you, but I've been sparking like every day practically over the last 10 months.

Katie: Right. It's all related. We get angry when the things we love, the people we love are being attacked.

Karen: Exactly right. 

Katie: Killed, threatened, under assault. So it does seem like they are all related to each other. And I really, to me, this is such a helpful way of framing it, because oftentimes, and I've said it myself, like, “Okay, well anger is fine. It's all about how we channel it.” But what you're saying is more concrete to me though, it's giving it more of not just like, “okay, it's this thing that happened, so I need to figure out how to do something productive with it.” It's actually pointing out how it is productive itself. It plays a role. Yeah. And it has a role. It can't play all the roles. 

Karen: For sure. And, and you asked something about like, you want something concrete, like how do you do this? Like how do you, how do you stay tethered to joy? How do you keep going? It's just, it's, a lot of it is, again, self-compassion, but also self-awareness. This is something that's really making me furious. Let me take a beat. Let me think about, okay. Something has to be done. If I move in anger, if I stay in anger, sometimes I'll make the wrong decision because it's sort of a kneejerk thing. 

So let me take a second, then go, okay. What are the gifts that I have at my disposal? What's the community I have at my disposal? And that's when you move. You take the breath. Is it Vitor Frankl? “Between stress and a response, there's a pause”? You take the pause, and assess. What do I have at my disposal? I have my community, I have my gifts, I have my strengths, I have my email list, I have my whatever. And then, we go and then we go, and then before we burn out, because like when we're breathing, we don't inhale after we've expelled all the air out. It's just a cadence. Before we burn out, we take a breath, we breathe again, and then we go and we rest and we recreate. And we do that and then we go back in again, and before, again, we burn out it’s time to inhale again. And then I'm gonna recreate and then I'm going back in. 

Let's go and trust that all your community are all doing that in a different rhythm. So when you're going, going, going, that's giving space for the people to take a breath, rest, recreate, and then they're gonna go. And that's, we're all doing it at different times and just trust that together. Like that engine, we're pushing things forward. 

Katie: Karen, most people don't engage in political activism. And I think a lot of that has to do with how it can be sort of intimidating. I also think that there is something about politics, which understandably feels divisive. Engaging in politics doesn't need to be pundits fighting on cable. That's the opposite of what we're doing here, But I, I'm thinking about in that quest to rebrand, to reclaim what political activism actually should mean. How can we use what, what you've learned through these books to, to help change that? To help change what it means?

Karen: So I will admit to you that for a long time I was like, I vote, I'm not doing anything more right? I became a US citizen actually to vote. I was a green card holder for a long time and there was an election that pissed me off and I was like, all right. And I didn't have to lose my citizenship from the Caribbean, where I'm from, from Trinidad. So I was like, okay, I guess I'm gonna become a citizen now, so I'm gonna vote. And that's enough, right?

What was really interesting to me, the idea of calling your congress person or calling your representative, I was like, I'm not doing that. I live in Texas and my politics are very, very different from what most Texas politics are. And I'm like, if I call somebody, I'm just gonna cuss 'em out. So why am I, why am I gonna, why am I gonna call? And it was my friend Asha Dornfest, who I interview in the book, who is one of the kindest people I know and who is very, very politically active. 

And she was the one that was like, “okay, Karen, you do realize that the Congressperson isn't the person picking up the phone, first of all.” Right? Which I think I thought. Or I thought it would at least be his personal secretary right there and just say, get off the phone and go, “Senator so-and-so, you won't believe the call I just had.” Like, that's really, that's literally what I thought. She’s like, “it's gonna be an aide and it's gonna be a person who's just collecting the information. And so what you're doing, if you call, is that you're giving them the information. And you hope that they'll do something with the information. They may or may not, but at least you're, you're participating in that.”

And then when I saw it that I was literally on the phone for all of five seconds, right? When somebody picked up the phone and that was it. Or leaving a message. Usually nobody picks up the phone in my representatives’ offices, but you leave a message and that's it. And then it was like, “oh, okay, well that's not as terrifying as I thought.” And then you start to think of local stuff that might be happening and then you start to think about local stuff that maybe not even has to do with politics, but it might have to do with the community center or your school. 

So I think the reason that people are scared of politics is because what makes the news are the elected officials who are very media savvy and they know what to say in order to make CNN or Fox or MSNBC or ABC or NBC to get them on television, right? So the, it's gonna be the fiery stuff. But I think that's the showmanship. And I think personally, as far as rebranding, what we need to do is make it really clear, and I don't know how to do it, y'all are the experts on this, but I think that what really have to do is say… that's not politics. That's the stuff that sells. 

The politics part is making sure you do vote, right, making sure you're registered to vote, helping your community get out to vote. Like, that's politics. That is politics. I am not so much trying to be against anybody as I am trying to be for people, right? So if I'm doing something, let's just say, especially if it's in an area where I hold privilege. I'm able-bodied, cisgendered woman, right? So if it's in an area where, LGBTQ rights or the rights of, of people who have some sort of disability, I am for those people. So what I wanna do is do something for them. 

It is less about I hate the GOP, or I hate that party, or I hate, right? It is far more about what can I do to help advance the cause of this community, whatever this community is, whether or not it's Black people as women or whatever, what can I do for them? That, for me, is a lot easier to get my mind around and get me motivated. 

LaFonda: I think politics is exactly what you said, because as someone who says this every week, someone who didn't consider themselves political, still doesn't, even working for a political organization, doesn't consider themselves political. I think exactly what you just described is someone coming and saying, “actually, this is what you need to do. Like, it's not that scary.” 

Karen: Yeah. 

LaFonda: Well Karen, it's been amazing to have you here with us today. Can you tell us a little bit more about where people can learn more about you or buy your books? 

Karen: Yeah, for sure. So, you can buy my books anywhere that books are sold. if you go to Karenwalrond.com, that's probably the fastest way to get there and you'll be able to see links to my Substack and to where to buy books and how to get ahold of me and all the, all the good stuff. 

LaFonda: Yay. Well, we have been so excited to have you on and it has been an amazing time having you have a conversation with us here today. So thanks for joining us on How To Not Lose Your Shit. 

Karen: It is always a pleasure and I love, love, love what you guys are doing. So thanks so much for having me. 

LaFonda: Thanks everyone for listening today. Before we go, we wanna leave you with our self-care tip of the week. So this week our tip is, we talked about it, just getting your feet and hands touching the dirt. Just gardening. I've been doing a little bit more gardening. I feel like it is magic. God's magic. We've got, I've got little sprouts popping out of the dirt, which is crazy 'cause yesterday they weren't there. Today they're there. And it just feels like a little bit of magic. 

So I will let you know if I'm eating like lettuce or greens or carrots or something that I've grown myself. But it does feel good to get your hands in the dirt a little bit and just kind of be one with nature. 

Katie: I've never been able to successfully grow a plant in my life, so I'm gonna let Lafonda continue to take the lead on this. I'll put my toes in the dirt. Just don't ask me to grow anything.

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