Neighbors vs. Data Centers (with Cathy Becker and Annette Singh)

This week on the pod, we talked to two women in Ohio who have been fighting back against an Amazon data center in their neighborhood. Cathy has been doing environmental advocacy for many years, and young mom Annette has only recently gotten involved, but they both agreed that it was only through the help of one another -- and their entire community -- that they've been able to make a difference.

But let's back up, shall we? We've heard terms like "AI" and "data centers" thrown around a lot lately, but so many of us don't know exactly what a data center even is, let alone why it would be harmful to our neighborhood! Cathy and Annette did a great job of explaining what they are, how swiftly they can be built (often without neighbors even being informed), and why we should be concerned.

And as always, we heard that our relationships with one another aren't just the key to effective action. They're also the key to not losing our sh!t.

If you're worried about a data center being built in your area, or you just want to know more, don't miss this episode!

And don't forget to contact your Senators to stop the SAVE Act! We can help you here.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

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YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Sh!t - Episode 25 (Neighbors vs Data Centers)

LaFonda: Hi everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I'm LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue. 

Katie: And I'm Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine and Blue, which by the way, we are an organization of more than half a million diverse women working to change the world together. At Red Wine and Blue, we help women organize in their local communities and make meaningful connections even in this moment of political chaos.

LaFonda: This week I talked to Cathy and Annette, two women in Ohio who have been working to stop an AI data center in their neighborhood. Data centers are becoming an issue around the country, but I think a lot of us don't know that much about what a data center is and why it's a problem. 

So I'm glad we got a chance to hear from Cathy and Annette because it was very informative to me. I did a little Googling yesterday. I'll probably do a little more research because I hear about data centers, there's so many going up. I think Cathy said there's 118 right now in central Ohio, and so it was really helpful for me to learn why this is an issue and what they are doing to sort of push back a little bit on this.

So what did you get from this conversation, Katie? 

Katie: Well, I mean, talk about a moment of chaos. Like to me, the velocity with which these AI data centers are being built throughout our communities, oftentimes completely unbeknownst to the people that are gonna directly impact, like it's chaotic, it's overwhelming.

You combine that with the fact that, you know, these are coming in to power AI, which I think that we as people, humans, moms trying to parent right now and understand the role of our AI in our lives and our kids' lives, like it's just, it's overwhelming. 

Pair that with the fact that I didn't even know about an AI data center was, like, for real, and I mean… I definitely didn't a year ago. I can't remember exactly when I started hearing about them, but now I hear about them all the time. And so as chaotic and overwhelming as this issue seems, I'm so glad we talked about it. And you did such a great job of this interview and I'm grateful to you for doing it because I think it's something that we all need to know about.

And one of the things that stuck out most to me about the interview was, here I am thinking like, “oh, are listeners gonna be like overwhelmed by this? Like maybe they haven't heard much about it either yet.” But what Cathy said, and she is the one of the two who has actually been engaged in politics and advocacy and stuff like that, is that she said she didn't know anything about this issue, not that long ago.

And so to me it was such a reminder. You do not have to be an expert to get involved in really any issue. And boy, you can see the passion that they brought to this issue because it was hitting their community and now they're so impassioned to help people in other communities understand what's going on too.

But I just thought that was really cool that she was like, “I didn't know about this either, but you know, like, if you wanna figure out what to do, just like learn by doing. Jump in.”

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: “Find other people just like we found each other.” And it's like that pattern again and again. It's like no matter how chaotic or intimidating, there's always a way in by working together and just understanding that you don't have to know it all to get started.

LaFonda: Yeah. Hearing other people talk about it actually makes you want to go and learn more. This is gonna sound real crazy, maybe a little bit ignorant, like, I don't know, like you're right, a year ago I had not heard the term “data centers" often, if at all. AI has sort of crept up on us, right? Like we knew what AI was, but now it's a part of our everyday lives. It's a part of everyday conversations about the ethics of it and where it comes from and its environmental impact and its social impact. So we're talking about it more and more. And in terms of data centers, I don't know that it, it ever really occurred to me that like all of this has to come from somewhere. Right?

Katie: Right, like there wasn't just like energy up in the sky that was like being zapped into your phone or computer.

LaFonda: This is not coming from my MacBook. It is coming from a giant building. 

Katie: Yeah. 

LaFonda: With lots and lots of servers. There's so much energy running and that energy comes from somewhere and that, you know, they have to be cooled and then that water comes from somewhere. And this was just not a conversation I would've been a part of a year ago. And so having this conversation with Cathy and Annette was really informative to me. Hopefully it was informative to everyone else listening 'cause it makes me want to do a lot more research and to understand, are there AI data centers going up near me? How is that gonna have an impact on me? You know, I live just outside of Dallas and it's a pretty rural area where I am right now. There's lots of warehouses and that kind of thing, which in my mind feels really right for an AI data center. 

Katie: Hundred percent. 

LaFonda: So I'm wanting to do some research. Are there things going up near where I am? And I, that's not a conversation I would've been a part of or even thought about a year ago, six months ago.

Katie: And once you start learning about it, I mean, some of these facts are alarming, that a single data center powering AI can be using as much electricity as a small city. And the fact that, you know, way too often the people who live in these areas are being asked to foot the bill and to bear that potential health burden, environmental burden. 

And as alarming as that is, and as fast as this all is happening, what does give me some faith and really motivates me to support women, however we can, organizing out there, is that people are pushing back. I mean, there are new examples every day of communities coming together and saying no to this in their community, saying, “this is bad for our community, our environment, our kids. We can't have this.” And they're winning. 

So a lot of it is like knowing this is going on and raising those alarm bells and you know, listen. Annette and Cathy pointed out that this can be hard work to track what was going on in their community and to fight this, they do have to go to pretty much every city hall meeting. They do need to track what is, what is going on in the committee meetings. But they also said, no way can any one of us do that alone. And that's where the group comes in. That's where that sense of community, the relationships. 

These women didn't know each other before they'd got involved on this issue. But they had heard about each other. Now they've friends and what they said is that, you know, “if I can't go, she can, or someone else we're working with can.” And we hear that over and over. No one is like side eyeing anybody 'cause they need to take a little time out, you know, 'cause they've got something else going on in their lives. Like of course you have something else going on in your life. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: You know, it feels like there's so much grace always given and I think that's such a core tenet to how women are organizing, like giving each other grace, expressing our gratitude really often. That's how we keep going. Otherwise, it is just not sustainable and the whole strategy of wearing us out will work. But why it doesn't work again and again, is because women know how to support each other. And that is just a freaking beautiful thing. 

LaFonda: Yeah. It's happening so fast. I think Cathy said that like it, it's like the legislation gets pushed through so quickly, like they build them so fast, you can't possibly do all the things all the time, be in all the places. And that's why the community is important. That's why the groups are important. That's why having people around you who can pick up the ball and run when you need a break, that's why it's important. Cause you can't be in all the places and we have so many things that are issues right now.

And if this is the thing that you know, is the issue that you are fighting or the issue that's important to you, that community around you that's also working to push back on this is important because you can't be there all the time.

Katie: It's so true. You know, and it has such a direct parallel to everything else in our life. Like, okay. So my husband was outta town last weekend and I was like one of those classic weekends with the kids. Right? There were birthday parties, there were soccer games. There was… I don't know, I can't even remember the rest of it now. There were a lot of places to go. There were a lot of rides needed, and I, it was just like too much. I just, I had a lot, a lot going on. And I sent like two texts, you know, to other parents. And I was just like, “Hey, are you going to this thing? Do you–”and before I could even ask, it was like, “Of course we'll pick him up. Or drop him off at our house, we can save you that 30 minutes each way.” Like.... Isn't it the same thing? 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Katie: Like it takes a village to just get through our day-to-day personal lives, just in the exact same way that it takes a village to stand up for our values in our communities. It's really all the same thing. So again, it's like whenever I hear anyone say like, “well, I've never done that before. I'm not equipped to do that.” It's like, “Yes, you are!” 

You know, and, and, and sometimes we're not good about asking for help as women. So this is just another opportunity to flex those muscles. It's something I'm trying to get better at. So, you know, what's good for the soul is good for your community is good for the world. 

LaFonda: And it's always interesting because you say, “I'll help anyone. I'll help if you just ask me.” But then you don't wanna ask other people, right? It's so crazy. 

Katie: Oh my God. We have to remember that all the time. I know, right? When your friend asks you for help, you're like, “Oh my God, she loves me. I'm such a good friend. Ask me anytime. I love helping you out, girl.” You know? And then you're like, I need help. And it's like, ahhhh.

But I'm telling you, I did it. I totally did it because I was just completely strapped with all the juggling last weekend, and it felt so good and I felt more connected to the friends who helped out and like, I'm gonna have their back next time they need it. That's how all this works fundamentally. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Katie: And that's beautiful.

LaFonda: Yeah. Alright, well let's bring in Annette and Cathy.

BREAK

LaFonda: Today I am joined by two women in Ohio who have been defending their community against AI data centers. Annette and Cathy, welcome to the podcast. 

Annette: Thank you. 

Cathy: Happy to be here. 

LaFonda: Could we just start by saying like, what, what data centers are and why this conversation is an important conversation. 

Annette: So in general, I would say like data centers are facilities, right? Like large buildings that house a lot of computers. That's just in general, like the high level, and a lot of companies are putting them out there like Amazon, Microsoft, and a plethora of others. What we have found in our town is that once a data center comes in and they start requesting additional power, that's when we as a city lose control over what happens at the location. And then it jumps to state and federal regulations. 

So at the data center that I live closest to, it started out as eight buildings, and now they're putting in what we consider a gas power plant because there’s 228 fuel cells. So that's gonna generate maybe like 15% of the energy there, but that's emitting so much CO2, along with other toxins. So this data center came in, again, originally the buildings with just the computer chips, but now it's becoming such a huge air pollution problem in my neighborhood, next to my child's school and literally abutting a playground.

Cathy: A general data data center can use as much power as a small city, like hundreds of megawatts. And so that's why, you know, with data centers coming all over Columbus… well, Ohio is the fifth largest state for data centers, especially in central Ohio, which is where we are, there's well over a hundred either already built or in the pipeline, even more in the pipeline. So that's why this area is extremely concerned about energy use because each one of them, it's like adding a small city of energy needs. 

Not to mention the huge amount of water needs millions of gallons to cool these servers. These, you know, in your laptop, you probably notice there's a fan that runs to keep it cool. Just multiply that exponentially inside a data center and they use water to keep that cool. So that is a concern as well. But right here in Hilliard, it's power that’s the concern. 

LaFonda: Most people, I think, as a, from a blanket perspective, know it takes a lot of water, right? Like that's what I hear most of the time is water. And so I don't think people always understand what a major environmental impact data centers have, especially when they're going up so close to people's homes and the neighborhoods and what impact those have on the people that live in those places.

Annette, when did you first realize they were being built in your neighborhood and what's going on with them right now? 

Annette: So I've been in the neighborhood for four years and I found out about it, I would say right after I moved into the neighborhood because the city was doing construction in the area. It used to be just farmland, like a big plot of hundreds of acres of farmland. And they slowly started building the buildings. Then this past September, so September 2025, is when my neighbors started hearing about permit changes and in city hall meetings that were about the fuel cells that might be coming in. 

And so that's when all of us were like, “Wait a minute. This is not just a data center. This is now elevating to a power plant. And like, what else is coming in?” And then in December I found out that again, these diesel generators that are used for backup emergency use, they themselves, if they get turned on, are massively, massively again, going to pollute the air. This is not minor. Anything that's coming with the data center is elevating in severity. It's, it's just like every month I feel like I find out about something else and it's another concern. 

LaFonda: And that's, that's happening still right now? Where are you in this conversation, in this fight right now? 

Annette: So at the moment there is a pending EPA case that I'm involved in, and so is the city, about the approval of the fuel cells. And after that, there is a hearing for the diesel generators on March 19th. So in a few weeks. So for now, the, it looks like the buildings are built like on the outside. They look like they're built on the inside. I don't believe anyone really knows, unless they're an Amazon worker, possibly maybe a EP or maybe the city. But I, I'm not even sure about that. 

So as of now, the fuel cells are possibly going to be built starting this month even, but come alive in September 2027. So that's kind of the timeframe. Like right now we're still in this, like they're not live, but they're becoming built. 

LaFonda: And the, the data center is directly on the other side of the fence from a park where your kids play. How does it feel to have something that's so huge and impersonal affecting your family in such a direct way? 

Annette: Yeah, it's just wild. It's like. When we moved in, like I said, it was an open farmland, like deer, I could see deer coming from those, like crossing, you know, the woods. 'cause there's like a little path of woods. And we would see deer in the playground. Now that's all fenced off. There's a bunch of trees that have been taken down. There was a pond that was taken out, right? Again, all the water removed. 

So there's a lot of stuff that was done to make the buildings become viable, right, for the data center. And it's really weird to have my children play at this playground, like at the play structure.

And literally, anytime I take a picture, the data center's behind it. Like that's what it looks like constantly. And the air pollution is my biggest concern. Like the CO2, the other list of toxins that are gonna be coming out that doesn't exist there today. Like today, the air quality does not have these toxins in it. So within a year, it's gonna be worse. 

LaFonda: I can imagine going from like taking my kids to the park and they're being like this beautiful land with deer and water and, and now there's just like a giant building. Cathy, you've been political and doing political advocacy for a while, and Annette, this is a more recent thing for you.

What has inspired both of you to get involved? 

Cathy: I actually live in a different neighborhood in Hilliard that has a different Amazon data center across the street. And so I, I've been terrified that something like this would happen here. Uh, but I am also a co-founder of an organization in Ohio called Save Ohio Parks, which was a bunch of citizens who came together after the legislature passed a law mandating fracking of Ohio State Parks and public lands. Ohio's the only state to frack its own state parks. 

So we started a citizens group on this and so I've been following state legislation and we saw a piece of legislation last year that had some good things in it. Um, it repealed a coal plant bailout that had been on the books in Ohio for several years, that environmental groups had been trying to get repealed for quite some time.

But there was also a process inserted to fast track a major energy facility to power a large energy user behind the meter. And so when you translate all that, the, the clear intent was to fast track gas plants from all this fracking and, and use that gas to power data centers. That power doesn't go on the grid. It powers directly. It's like a private source of power. And so this bill, which is now law, sets up a process to, to approve that in just 45 days in just six weeks. No notification of, you know, the community, no public. Like the, the standard process takes months, if not years. None of that happens in this very expedited process.

That's only 45 days, so people aren't even really told, maybe a few people who live like literally within a few hundred feet, maybe they're told, but generally the community doesn't know. And in this case, there wasn't even a vote of the public utilities Commission of Ohio. Normally on a big power plant, there is a vote.

Well, it got what's called automatic approval, which means the PUCO didn't object, and so it just got permitted. And, and so it was permitted and had a air permit from the Ohio EPA before most people knew what was happening. And I saw this in this legislation, and I was afraid for, frankly, for the data center across the street from my house getting one of these.

And so I testified several times I worked with a legislator on that committee to try to get more local input or at least get a longer timeframe. They were not able to get that, and so then almost immediately after this bill became law, this fuel cell was announced in Hilliard. Like exactly what I told them would happen when I testified.

It happened. So so now I'm, you know, kind of, I'm hearing about a lot of data center fights around the state, and basically if I find out about one, and it's still in the planning stages, the data center hasn't been approved, I send in testimony and tell them, you know, be really careful what you wish for, because it might look like this is going to bring in a lot of money for your schools and so forth.

Once that's approved, they can put in a gas plant and you will have no jurisdiction. Local officials will have no say. You're probably not even gonna be told. So, you know, that's where we are in Ohio right now. 

LaFonda: And you referenced a number, or one of you referenced a number earlier. You said there were more than a hundred around the, what was that number that you referenced earlier?

More than a hundred around the state. 

Cathy: Oh gosh. Go look it up on the data center map, but it's like 118 data centers in Ohio, in central Ohio right now, 

LaFonda: just in central Ohio. 

Cathy: Just in the central Ohio region. Yeah. It is a big, 

LaFonda: that's insane. 

Cathy: It is a big deal here in a lot of communities and a lot of communities are getting a lot of citizen pushback.

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Cathy: So yeah, a lot of the suburbs and the villages in the area all are really pushing back and in some cases able to stop a data center. 

LaFonda: Well, that's good. Um, that's an insane, I just, as you were talking, I was thinking about that's an insane number, especially for such a small area. Um, Annette, what about you?

What inspired you to get involved? 

Annette: So I heard about like, again, the knew about the data center, heard about the fuel cells from a neighbor. So really my biggest thing is our neighborhood is so wonderful and I feel like such a sense of community. We do talk to each other. Like, what's going on? And with that, I've, I would say I've always had an environmental eye in the sense of like, part of environmental club in high school, part of that in college, try to do as much as I can living with, you know, three kids and having a household, trying to be as.

Eco-conscious as possible. And with that, when I heard again about the air quality, suffering was like a huge red flag for me. And I started to reach out to organizations like the Ohio Environmental Network, Buckeye Environmental save Ohio Parks. I think there's so many organizations out there that are fighting these things, but it's just hard to get linked up with them.

If that makes sense. Or even so many Facebook organizations and coalitions, I've joined maybe by now, at least 20. So like I just also try to join as many groups to get the word out there because I think we are all in this together. And I think it is gonna be a strength in numbers, right? Because these organizations are corporations or even politicians, they kind of have the power.

But again, we, we really hold the power as people that can make change. So I think. Just getting the information out there, sharing like what we went through, what worked, what didn't work. That's kind of what inspired me because I, I found other organizations that are also in this fight and I'm like, how can I help?

Then how can I help the next person? 

LaFonda: And you two, so you met through this initiative, right? Like so you two didn't know each other before you started working together on this issue. And I'd like to hear more about how your community relationships, like we talked about before, this podcast is a lot about how community is helping us not lose our shit, how community is helping us continue the fight forward.

And I'd like to hear more about how your community relationships are helping you sort of stay in and do this difficult work. 

Annette: Cathy, do you remember when we met exactly? 

Cathy: I think it was at the Buckeye Environmental Network workshop on how communities can work together to fight back. And I had heard your name and um, saw you were coming, so was definitely wanted to meet you there and right.

Annette: And then Cathy's name was thrown out to me. I would say like so many times in emails, right? Like when I contacted someone, they're like, oh, Cathy, have you heard of her? And I was like, I've heard of her. I think I emailed you, but I never met you in person. Right. And then at that meeting, which was wonderful, by the way, so I'm so glad I was invited to attend.

Cathy: You know, we are really up against a lot here in Ohio. The, the oil and gas industry is very dominant in this legislature, and it's a very gerrymandered legislature, as I'm sure your viewers and listeners probably know. And we are going up against it. And they are a very wealthy industry. I could not do this work without regularly working with others, working with citizens in the community, working with other citizens in other environmental groups, and just knowing that there are so many good people behind the scenes that are just working really hard, spending a lot of their time and energy to change things, to make the world better, to make the environment cleaner and healthier.

Also, you know, work for people, you know, help the people that live in the environment as well. And so that's just really what keeps me going is just knowing that there are all these people out there and I wanna be part of that. And this is, this is a long haul fight. This is not gonna be solved tomorrow.

LaFonda: Yeah. I love hearing that the community that you've built not only is helping you make the connections, get more information, do more for the fight itself, but it's also just helping you stay a little bit sane, I guess. What would you say to listeners who are worried about AI data centers being built in their area?

Annette: I mean, I think just getting civically engaged is important. I would say September also, 2025 is when I really started going to city hall meetings and. Listening to, what are they talking about? What are they planning? What's in their agenda? And I know that not everyone can go. I know there's a lot of things, people are busy, but having even a coalition, right, like if I can't go, I know Cathy's gone. Or if Cathy can't go, someone else can go right? And send notes. 

So getting engaged and hearing about it, 'cause it's almost impossible to know everything that's happening. Because there's so much, there's EPA permits, there's city zoning permits there. Like there's so much going through that it's so hard for one person to take ownership of it. So I think joining a group or some type of organization will ease that pressure off of you and kind of have other people kind of for support. So that's what I've enjoyed about the support from others. 'cause I sometimes need a timeout. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Annette: Because it does get overwhelming of like, oh, the negative and the anxiety. So I've had to take a timeout and then I regroup and then I get back in. 

Cathy: Yeah. I was pretty much gonna say the same thing, just get engaged. Um, if you can't attend a city hall meeting, they usually put their agendas online. Know about what's coming before it happens so that you can weigh in during the decision making process.

And the more local that you can weigh in, the more influence you have. You know, I've worked with several cities and city governments around central Ohio, Columbus Grove City, Hilliard, and your voice goes a lot farther there than, obviously my voice didn't carry the day on the state level. So there you have to have, you know, more resources. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Cathy: If you find, you know, if you find out they're considering a data center, talk to 'em about this and tell them why you, you know, how this would affect you and how this would affect the environment and. Definitely let them know that they will not have jurisdiction if the data center decides to put in a gas plant of some sort.

LaFonda: And what about those people that are like, I don't know enough, like I'm, I'm not sure exactly what a data center is. I'm not sure what the impact is. I'm just gonna sit this one out 'cause I'm not really sure. I, I'm just, I don't know what all of these things are. How do they learn more about what a data center is, what that impact might be to them personally, what the impact is to the environment, what the impact might be to their neighborhood. How do they find out more about data centers so they know how to get involved? 

Cathy: Well, you can learn by doing. You know people think I know a lot, and at this point I do know a lot, but I've learned it all by doing, you know? By doing it, by just jumping in there and then once you start hearing things and picking things up that tells you where to look for more information and every time you learn a piece of information, then that points the way to where you can look for more information.

And before you know it, you do know what's going on. 

Annette: And I think even just being informed about it, even if you don't take specific action right away, that is important. So again, like it's sometimes on the news, right? It's sometimes in articles that maybe you're subscribed to. Just hearing about it and knowing about it, I think is the first step.

LaFonda: Yeah, I think I've learned just so much just listening to the two of you today. So I think that's a first step too, just listening to people who know a little bit more about it than you do. 'cause I'm gonna do a little Googling when we get off of this podcast. I'm not gonna lie. 

So this podcast is called How to Not Lose Your Shit and the Environment, billionaires and AI are just a few of the things we're losing our shit about right now. What helps the two of you get through it? 

Annette: Taking breaks is, for me, I think like just having that decompression time where I'm like, let me just focus on this book. Right? Because that's what I do to relax. Or even just a TV show with my husband. Timing myself out too. So going to bed instead of going down those rabbit holes, 'cause I usually do most of my work on this between 9:00 PM and midnight, which is like good and bad, right? Because then you can't fall asleep. So I just have to give myself a timeout, right? Like if I do that too much, then okay, give myself like two, three days break and then restart.

So just knowing your limits because you also don't wanna burn out. Because you can. So that's kind of my thing. It's just like taking a couple breaks when I need it for that escape, and then jumping back in, because I do think, as Cathy said, this is really like a long game. You might not win today, but hopefully you might win tomorrow or the next day.

Cathy: Yeah, I mean, I just, it sounds cliche, but you know, I just try to eat right and exercise, get my workout, my workouts are really critical. Um, I go get a massage every now and then because that's really helps me keep going. And just if you. Really are at the end, you, you know, really low on energy and at the end of your rope, right?

Then just step back because this is a long haul and just do something else for a while. Go get a walk or a workout or get some sleep. You know, sometimes it's hard to get enough sleep. 

LaFonda: Yeah. Um, not cliche at all. Those are my favorite way. Like step away, take a minute and take a nap. It's my favorite way to step away from things. Napping is my favorite way to self-care. I'm not gonna lie. So I appreciate the information and I'm sure our listeners will too. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. 

Annette: Well, thank you for having us. Thank you. Appreciate it.