Stop the Surveillance (with Erin Stockdale and Dave Thomas)

This week on the pod, we were joined by two of Katie's neighbors: Erin and Dave. Along with a few other members of their community in Shaker Heights, Ohio, they've been working together to stop the AI surveillance company Flock from sharing their data with ICE.

It's a complicated issue! First, on the technical side -- how exactly does Flock work, and how are they sharing data with ICE and Border Patrol? It's also tricky on the advocacy side -- how can we know if Flock is sharing our data with ICE, and what can we do to stop it? 

But Erin and Dave broke it all down and explained what we can do if we're worried about Flock in our own community. A great place to start is https://deflock.org/,  a  crowdsourced website where people have been sharing where cameras are located all across the country. 

From there, you can find people in your community who are also concerned about this issue and push for change on the local level. It's important to advocate on the federal level for changes to ICE and Border Patrol, but you can actually have a conversation with your local city council member or chief of police. After all, they're part of your community too.

Erin, Dave and Katie all agreed that as scary as everything feels right now (with ICE, surveillance, and AI high on the list of concerns), it's actually been empowering to talk to their local leaders about Flock... and, of course, become better friends along the way.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Shit Episode 29: Stop the Surveillance (with Erin Stockdale and Dave Thomas)

Katie: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit.

I'm Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine & Blue. 

LaFonda: And I'm LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine & Blue. 

Katie: Today, we're joined by Erin and Dave, two of my neighbors in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and we have been working together along with a bunch of other residents here to stop Flock, which is an AI surveillance company, and they have a documented history of sharing data with ICE.

So as you can imagine, when I learned that this was a company that my town had a contract with, you all have heard us on this podcast talk a lot about ICE and our deep concerns that we know you all share out there with everything ICE is doing across the country. And so when I learned about Flock operating in my community, that was something I wanted to learn more about.

So I'm really excited today, LaFonda, that we got to have on Erin and Dave. Honestly, I'm really excited that you got to meet them, you know? I think I'm always telling you about stuff I'm working on locally, but today you got to get to meet a couple of my buddies who I'm doing this work with. What did you think of the conversation?

LaFonda: I am one of those people that's like, when people are like, "Your phones are listening to you, and don't put your information," I'm like, everything is listening to you at this point. We're all being surveilled literally all the time in 2026. But truthfully, Flock cameras, the more I've been listening to you talk about them and the more I've been go- like, they are really unnecessary and scary.

So this conversation was really, really helpful for me, and it's gonna make me go do a little bit more research than I've already been doing on Flock cameras because they do seem highly unnecessary. And I think they've been used for so many nefarious reasons. So I'm glad you and your friends are doing something about it, Katie.

Katie: Well, I am... I, and I'm pumped that was your reaction to it, 'cause I wanted to make sure that, you know, what we're doing could be, you know, understood and there's no question, like you're ready- Mm-hmm ... to go and tackle this issue now. I know exactly where you live. So that's what we were going for. Look, when I first heard about this issue, I felt the same way you did.

I just thought, oh, this is just, this is just what our day-to-day is now in America. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, what's the difference between this and like logging onto Facebook? And you know, not only did I quickly learn that, you know, things like Facebook or things like having a Ring camera, those are all things that you can opt out of.

You can be in or out. And we have heard this pushback that, hey, aren't we surveilled all the time? So what difference does it make anyway? If we end our contract, isn't it, it, isn't it just gonna still be business as usual in terms of how we're surveilled and ICE doing all the things that they are? 

That is exactly how our federal government, the Trump administration, wants us to view all of these things. And change always starts small. There are already 53 cities across the United States that have canceled their flock contracts, and that is how we make the dents in a system that is hurting us, that is actually making not just our immigrant neighbors less safe, but all of us less safe.

And so ultimately, I feel so empowered to be a part of this local action in my community and to, and get to share it with you and all of our listeners, because I know that if all of us work locally and do this together in all of the places where we live, there is always something we can do, and that has always been how change has happened.

LaFonda: Yeah. Yeah. I think during this interview, Aaron and Dave both made really good points about crime and, like, using cameras to, like, stop crime. But stopping crime once it happens is kind of futile, right? Like, the crime has already happened. Victims have already been impacted. I think the problem that I have with that is that instead of relying on cameras to respond to crime after it happens, we should be focusing on addressing underlying causes and root causes and preventing it in the first place.

That's what keeps our families safe. That's what keeps our community safe. That's what makes us better overall, and we spend so much time on the other side of Making us better after the crime has happened, honestly because that's where the money is. And I think that is the disconnect. So someone is making money off of the fact that crime is happening in the first place, and that that's the issue that I have with it.

And I think Dave and Erin both spoke to that a little bit. 

Katie: Well, and what they also discussed is that if you really look at the data, not just anecdotal evidence, what it shows is that this technology does not actually reduce crime over time. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: But you know what does? Trust in a community, trust among neighbors, trust between the community and our police department. That is what both prevents crime and actually helps solve crimes even after they've happened, when neighbors are gonna talk to each other and share information with the police. 

So ultimately, I wanna live in c- in a community where trust is reinforced and not undermined by surveillance, and I am so grateful to have learned so much through this journey with my neighbors so far.

And, um, we'll keep you updated, and you gotta keep me updated on what you find out- Yeah ... about cameras in, in the Dallas area. All right. Once again, this is another conversation about the power of people to come together and make change in our communities, and along the way, form friendships, which I know are gonna be with me for a very, very long time.

So I'm excited to share this conversation. Hey, Erin. Hey, Dave. Thanks for being here. 

Erin: Thank you. 

Dave: Thank you for having us on. 

Katie: I didn't know you guys, like, that long ago. Erin, I got to know you a little bit when you were helping to lead the school levy fight that we had to make sure our schools, our public schools could get funded last year.

But didn't get to know you as much as we have gotten to know each other now. And Dave, I think you came to a Red Wine and Blue event or meeting sometime last year before the elections, but we didn't really know each other. But- Through this, we have all really gotten to know each other and become friends, and that's what I always love about this kind of work.

So can we just like, you know, talk about why any of us are spending any of our precious time amongst our, you know, very busy lives on this issue? Erin, can we start with you, and then I also wanna get into like your insane, incredible research that you have been doing. But how did you get into this? Why are you here?

Erin: Well, I mean, I got into this just through our mutual friend, um, Caitlin, and you know, I also was not really aware of this issue with the Flock cameras with regard to who even owns the company, first of all. 

Katie: Tell 'em, Erin. Tell 'em who, tell 'em who's investing in this company. 

Erin: So like, you know, these major investors, Andreessen and Thiel, they are supporters of our president, and our president right now is enforcing policies that, in my opinion, don't treat human beings like human beings.

What we're seeing, you know, is just this lack of like humanity, period. And I just... Watching the news and seeing these ICE agents that are masked, that are dragging people out of their cars, these cameras are being used as a tool to continue abuses. And as an American, it's disappointing, it's disgusting, it's sad, and I just couldn't sit by and not speak up.

Katie: How about you, Dave? Was it also concerns about ICE that brought you to this? I know that you have a whole background in technology and started from a totally different baseline than I did in terms of understanding how all this works. 

Dave: You know, my, my biggest concern is, is obviously the protection and, and safety of the community around me.

And so, you know, from a technical aspect, learning about, you know, all the, the things that came out about the company and the security of these cameras and the, the connection to ICE was already bad enough. But then, you know, as I got involved with this group and started learning more and, and seeing, you know, how this is actually being able to be abused for really many different types of nefarious reasons, you know, I just felt that I couldn't...

You know, same as Erin, I couldn't sit by and just, just let this happen. 

Katie: Can you both talk about why you chose Shaker, like our town? I think something we're all really struggling is that it feels like there's not an alignment between why we live here and what our contract with this really bad company represents.

Dave: Yeah. So I, I, I moved, uh... So I, I, you know, just a little bit of background. I, I've lived in Northeast Ohio for pretty much my entire life, but never lived in Shaker. Knew of Shaker. But, you know, a little over a year ago, I, you know, was looking for a, a move to a place that was a little bit more inclusive, a little bit more diverse, not just in race, but in many different aspects, a- and a community that really wants to create a friendly, welcoming neighbor, uh, neighborhood environment.

And so, you know, I started doing some research and I, I, you know, was like, "You know, let me take a look at Shaker Heights." And, you know, the more that I looked into it, the more I realized that Shaker really is, uh, you know, a place that's about the walk and not just about the talk, right? So, you know, everything from taking care of renters, not just, uh, homeowners, to ensuring that, you know, the schools are safe and, and are a place for, you know, top levels of education.

But even when it comes to safety, uh, you know, looking into the police department and seeing, you know, things like, uh, uh, implementing a, a healthcare responder for mental health, those are the kinds of things that tells me that, that Shaker, even in an environment where the broader society, it, you know, feels like it could be falling apart, that we can still kind of have this area that, you know, still is about the, the, the human aspect, the, the connection to the people around us.

Erin: My family moved here three years ago. Um, my daughter is Black, my husband and I are not. And we lived at... We used to live in a relatively diverse community, but- Not a community where there was a lot of Black people. And my husband and I just had a conversation about how often we're in spaces where our daughter's the only Black person, and we really wanted to make sure that she had representation.

And I also learned a lot about Shaker Heights going into it, and Shaker Heights has this rich history of fighting for civil rights. I mean, just a really rich history. But I think what I also have learned since being here is that sometimes I just think we have to, like, remind our council members what their job is, what the people need.

And I just think a lot of people have felt like they've lost their voice in this moment. And I guess I would just say to people, like, to not be afraid. It's too important. 

Katie: Okay. Let's pause for a second, 'cause this does get, like, complex and technical, and I think pretty scary pretty fast, you know? Because on its surface, I think people are used to seeing cameras around their town, and they think it's just to, like, kinda keep things in order, an orderly fashion and all that.

And I had no idea before I started learning with you all about this, like, how all this data sharing works, all the different ways in which our data can get into the wrong hands. So let's explain what's, what's been going on. Dave, can we start with you? Like, can you give us a little bit of the 101? What is Flock?

What kind of info do these Flock AI surveillance cameras collect? How widespread is their use? 

Dave: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, Flock is what's called a automatic license plate reader system, and essentially it's a special type of camera, uh, with software that allows it to understand and recognize the information that's coming through to it and store it in a database.

And so what it's doing is essentially looking at every license plate that goes past the camera, storing it into a database for police departments and even private companies, uh, who are contracted with Flock, to be able to search that, that database to understand when people are going into or out of a specific area.

And kind of the, the big, you know, sticking point with why people are so worried about the privacy side of this is that all that data is not just available for your local police department. It can be shared out with other departments in your region or even across the entire country, right? 5,000 different, uh, entities could potentially be looking at the data, uh, about the license plates that are going into and out of the system automatically.

Katie: Dave, wow. That was so good. You're so good at this. Okay. But, but explain then why, if, if you're concerned about your community's data getting to ICE, couldn't we just say to Flock, "We don't want any of our data going to ICE, so can you just, like, turn off whatever you need to turn off to make sure that our data doesn't go to ICE?

Because in our community, Shaker is very clear we do not support what is going on with family separations and all of these, all, you know, immigrants being detained. Not in alignment with our values. Turn it off." 

Dave: Yeah, that's a, a great question, and it's a, a question a lot of communities, including Shaker, are asking right now.

There's no way for us to be 100% sure that Flock is not actually sharing this data with ICE. Now, they say they don't work with, directly with ICE, but they will share, uh, that information if they have a, quote-unquote, "good faith reason to," and that, you know, is really, uh, kind of a vague term, um, and, and up to us to trust the company itself to adhere to that.

And we may not even know about it because they can put any reason in there that looks legitimate, but it's actually related to, uh, ICE enforcement. The other point, going back to, you know, the, the mentioning of the people who helped fund this system, is that, you know, they're, they're not just trying to, you know, build these one-off systems that do these different things that are already bad by themselves, but they are actively right now putting together all this information and tying things like your license plate to your social media, to your government data, uh, to be able to build these profiles and, and, you know, the danger behind that is that, you know, all this collection of data, uh, allows them to, to go after people who, you know, maybe today are doing things that are protected speech or, you know, protected actions that could be, you know, uh, made illegal the next day, right?

And so, you know, a lot of people go, "Hey, I have nothing to hide, so, you know, I have no problems with these cameras." But, you know, you may not have anything to hide today, right? You know, uh, but it... that, that very legal, very, you know, non-violent action may become, uh, suddenly illegal, and so they have all this information that they can use to track you and to, to punish you for that, right?

So, you know, I think it's important for people to understand that this isn't just about this particular system, which is already bad, but it's about what the system is also feeding into that, that makes it even more dangerous. 

LaFonda: Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that one of... what you just said triggered a thought about some agencies, and I know right now it's primarily used for license plate tracking, but there are some agencies that have used Flock to track protesters exercising First Amendment rights.

And so if I'm someone who is protesting, I might wanna think about if there are Flock cameras around and, you know, I don't want those in my neighborhood if I'm e- exercising my First Amendment right, and so I might wanna get a few friends together to make sure that those aren't out where I am. But there's also this, this idea of, like, using it for personal gain.

There was a police officer, um, in Wisconsin that was using the Flock cameras or the Flock technology to, like, track his girlfriend, which honestly is a whole other aspect of using this technology in a way that is terrifying. But when I think about just, like, the use of Flock cameras and the fact that it's, it's tracking everyone, right?

Like, you can say that, "We're j- we're looking for criminals," or, "We're doing this and we're doing..." But it's, it's literally tracking every single person that is driving past these cameras. And I always think about, like, the people who are behind this kind of technology. You're making money. No one is doing this kind of thing because they wanna be broke, so what are you making the money From and why, and as someone who is Black in America, I'm also thinking about racial bias, and there's a whole lot of pieces that, that I wanna, wanna put together in that puzzle.

Erin: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so m- there's so many things you could talk about. But, I mean, the, like, the biggest thing is, you know, Flock puts out these, they call them white papers or case studies, making spectacular claims. And so they put out a white paper in 2024 where they said they reduced all crime in the United States by 10%.

But the, the basis of this report is suspect. So they conducted this review by surveying law enforcement agencies that use their technology, and basically they were using arrest data. So all they did was ask, "How many arrests can you attribute to Flock?" Okay, that's problematic in and of itself because we know not all arrests means that person absolutely committed that crime.

Aside from that, once they got down to it, the number of law enforcement agencies whose data they were able to use for their study, it ended up being about 123 law enforcement agencies, but we know that Flock is being used by over 5,000. 

Katie: Well, they based it on answers to a one-question survey that 2.5% of their clients actually answered, and this is, like, the preeminent study they're using out there to make their pitch to America that your community needs us in order to be safe.

Erin: Yeah. And then, like, the long-term data about the effectiveness of these license plate readers really as far as safety, I mean, the evidence for the case studies that I have reviewed show limited effect, um, on the rates of violent crime. And, you know, a lot of police agencies say, "Oh, these help us with car thefts."

Well, what it shows is, yes, usually after they get the cameras, there's a dip in car thefts, but then the longer period of time that passes since the camera's been installed, typically it goes right back up to where it was, at the same levels or even exceeds those levels. So, I mean, I think, and Dave hit on this, and we've talked about this as a group, like, when you talk about a camera, you're talking about a reactive police technology and not a proactive one.

So I think the bottom line, even if you can say, like, these aren't reducing violent crimes, well, you can also say that, like, the fact that you're resorting to a camera means that a crime was committed. At that point, you already have a victim, and you also have someone who's changed their life forever 'cause they committed a crime.

It's like, what are we doing in our communities- To prevent people from changing their lives or being, you know, becoming victims. Cameras aren't solving that issue. 

Katie: Yeah, exactly right. And I also think that, you know, the reality is in order for the cameras to be helpful once a crime has been committed, that means that we are going to have to know some information, a plate number or other descriptors of the vehicle that was involved.

And so oftentimes people who are advocating for Flock are saying, "Oh, well, if we have these cameras, then no matter what ever happens, we're gonna be able to catch the perpetrator." Well, you guys, has anyone heard of Nancy Guthrie, Samantha Guthrie's mom? Like She's still missing. She, and, and sh- she lives, she lives in Tucson, and Tucson had cameras all over the place, flock cameras all over the place.

But, you know, they never had any information on a vehicle that was involved in kidnapping her. 

Erin: Well, and it was the same with the shooter at Brown. It was the same deal. You know, he passed flock cameras a number of times, but they didn't know what they were looking for. 

Katie: Right. So instead of being asked to put all of our faith in this AI technology that may or may not result in catching someone who has committed a crime a- after the fact, what I think we would all love to see is a little bit more attention paid to what we can do in our communities to prevent those situations in the first place.

And obviously there's gonna be... Look, there's gonna be crime. That's part of the reality. But what we know again and again is that the best crime-fighting tool we always have in our communities is trust in each other so that we can gather reliable information to, yeah, stop criminals and hopefully prevent them in the future.

But what I do know right now is that I don't want my data or anyone else's data from my town going into this flock system or any other system that is sharing data with agencies through which it could get into the hands of ICE, orphaning children and separating families on a daily basis. 

LaFonda: Yeah. Aaron, your mom and Dave, you're, you're saying you moved to Shaker because you wanted to have a family there, and you, you talked about the inclusivity and the, and the safety.

How would you rather see your town, Shaker, towns around it, use its resources to keep your community safe? Are there better ways to keep families and communities safe than flock cameras? 

Dave: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, one of the, one of the things that, uh, I learned about through Aaron's fantastic research is, A, that yeah, you know, these, these cameras do have some issues with, with, uh, inaccuracies.

Yes. But number two, I truly believe that when it comes to safety and policing, that things should be more proactive than reactive. And, and, you know, looking into the data, it feels like flock cameras are more reactive measures than proactive. And so I think, you know, to, to keep communities safe, you know, something that we're starting to see play out in areas like Baltimore and Minnesota is, you know, actually getting out in the community and preventing crime in the first place by engaging with youth, by addressing the needs of the community that leads to the crimes, and not just waiting for the crimes to happen and then trying to punish people for it, right?

And I, a- again, you know, I think Shaker is a place that absolutely could lead the way, uh, in that area, especially in Ohio. So I would love to see more of that, um, happening in our community. 

LaFonda: What can people do if they're listening to this, they're not sure if their community has a contract with Flock, and how can they figure it out?

What can they do to, to figure out how they can keep their community safe? 

Katie: I think that they find a friend like we did in Caitlin, right? So we had... I mean, anyone out there can be the friend who learns about this for their community and then talks about it with other friends. So all of us, um, we, we have a mutual friend, Caitlin, who reached out to us because a friend of hers had learned about this as well in his community.

And when she texted me and said, "Did you know that Shaker Heights has a contract with Flock?" I'm gonna admit the first thing I did was Google Flock. So I didn't know at all anything about this company. I didn't know about its investors in terms of these, you know, Marc An- Andreessen and Peter Thiel. I didn't know that they had been caught working directly with ICE and Border Patrol.

They claim that those pilot programs have been turned off and they just ask us now to trust them, but I didn't know any of that. And I certainly didn't know the ways that all of our data could be shared with ICE even if Flock didn't have a contract with ICE, that there's all these other ways that the data can get directly into ICE's hands.

I mean, to me, it's like Googling the name of your city and Flock to find out if those cameras are there, or using the website deflock.org, which is a community-sourced, crowdsourced website where people have been putting on where cameras are located all across the country. And then start reaching out to the people you know, learning more about this.

We have a website, shakeoffflock.org, where we've published all of our research. We're meeting with every city council member, our chief of police. This has been such a powerful way to get involved because it can feel... We can call our members of Congress, right? 'Cause we don't like the DHS budget, 'cause we don't like ICE's practices.

We can push for change at the federal level. Absolutely an important thing to do, but we can have an outsize impact on what our own communities do. And so it has felt really empowering to me to be able to learn about this and work with my neighbors. Okay, you guys go. Sorry. I had to, I had to go off. You know I feel strongly about that one.

Erin: You're right. I think at the local level, we, we have a lot more influence. You might feel like one voice, but I think you would find that there are many people that are willing to join, and then collectively we can make a big difference. 

Katie: Dave, what has it felt like y- to you to kinda find our group with our Signal channel that's, like, popping off every five minutes now, you know, talking about all of this?

Like, as, especially someone who's newer to Shaker, you know, like, what, what has this experience been like for you so far? 

Dave: Yeah, it, it's been eye-opening, um, and it's been very empowering. You know, I, I'm somebody who has struggled with mental health, uh, for much of my life. Um, thankfully got it, you know, mostly under control just in time for the November 2024 election.

Um, and so, you know, like many people, I, I kinda focused on, you know, the state and federal level and realizing, oh man, things feel like it's getting bad, right? And it's just, you know, felt like things are outta my control. And then, you know, my, my therapist said, "Maybe look at focusing on the local level, things that you can affect change at." And, you know- 

Katie: What a good therapist. 

Dave: Yeah, absolutely love them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they, they've been great. Um, but they, they suggested that, right? And so then the FLOC stuff happened, and I was like, okay, perfect time to get my feet wet into this whole local change thing, right? I've never been to city council meetings.

I've never met with city council members or even know- knew their names. I've never done things like, you know, a lot of the organization and, and meeting, uh, hosting that, you know, has been happening since I've joined. And I think that's something to really kinda stress to people who are, you know, it doesn't just have to be about FLOC.

It really any of the, the stuff happening is that To get involved doesn't have to be this big major thing. It could be just, "Hey, join the Signal group," and then somebody asks, you know, "Who wants to do X, Y, Z?" It could be something as, as little as we need to research into this particular thing or, you know, comment at a city council meeting or help collect petition signatures, right?

It, it's, you know, uh, the beautiful part about what we've seen, especially out of Minneapolis, is that community organization is empowering and it can affect change, and it doesn't require you to do a lot. It just requires you to get together with other like-minded people, and so that's really given me hope for the future.

Um, now whether that's, uh, uh, for the whole nation or just Ohio or just Shaker Heights, I, I don't know yet, but, you know, it makes me feel good to know that other people care about these same issues and also want to do something about it and are, you know, giving people a chance to do it. And so, you know, it's been a really, really good thing for me to, to get involved with this and, and try to help affect this change.

Katie: Dave, I did not know that about your therapist giving you that very wise advice, but I have to share with you. So I don't know if you know this, but my mother is a psychologist, and a few months ago, uh, this was actually the week that Caitlyn reached out to me about this issue. Anyway, I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed.

I called my mom that morning, and I was definitely like, this was definitely a call mom and I need your therapist hat on, like, moment, you know? 'Cause I was just feeling a lot of anxiety and, and sense of overwhelm. And on top of everything I had going on that was making me feel like life was a lot and stressful, I said, "And on top of it, my friend reached out and it turns out Shaker Heights has this Flock contract and I feel like I, I don't know enough and I need to learn more, and there's that, too."

And she actually advised me, like, "Well, think about what's gonna help you feel grounded, though. You are feeling overwhelmed and you are gonna need to delegate and you are gonna need to ask for help. But, like, you tell women every single day to, like, focus on what they can control. Focus on what is in their own communities, 'cause that is where their voice can matter most, Katie.

Maybe it's time for you to take some of that advice to reground yourself in why you do all this." And so I don't know. I feel like there should be a club of all these therapists out there, like, giving very good advice and pointing people into local action. That's so cool. LaFonda, as someone who has not been knee-deep in this, did we explain what's going on?

Is this, like, is this, like, so... Like, did, did we do it? Did we do the job? Like- 

LaFonda: I think you did. The more I listen to it, the more I want to go to the website, look to see if there are Flock cameras in my area, 'cause I don't feel safer. It sounds like there are far more risks with the Flock cameras than there are rewards.

Like, you might catch a criminal or two based on the AI technology of Flock, but also it sounds like there's far more risk, right? And so I wanna go and, and, and think about Like what's going up in my area? I know that, like we talked about this the other day, just in Houston, I'm in Dallas, but like just in Houston, I think there are like more than 3,000 cameras, um, just in the city of Houston.

That just feels terrifying. It feels like an unnecessary amount, so it makes me feel like how many people can I get together to figure out how we can stop cameras going up like where I am in my immediate area? You guys have explained it very well, but it also makes me, and I'm sure many of our listeners think about like what's out around where I am because it does seem like an unnecessary technology.

Katie: All right. Erin and Dave, thank you so much for joining us. This has been really special to me to get to have folks on from my own community, and you guys, uh, inspire me and I know that this conversation will inspire a lot of others. So thanks for coming on. 

Dave: Thank you so much for having us. 

Erin: Thank you.