The Truth About Conversion Therapy (with survivor Drew Amstutz)

On March 31st — just two weeks ago — the Supreme Court ruled that the state of Colorado couldn’t ban conversion therapy for minors. They called it a matter of “free speech.”

But to the nearly 700,000 LGBTQ+ Americans who have gone through conversion therapy, it’s a lot more than an abstract issue about free speech. It’s a trauma they’re still dealing with, even if it happened to them years or decades ago.

One of those 700,000 is Drew Amstutz, Red Wine & Blue’s Chief of Staff and all-around delightful human. On this week’s podcast, he shared some of the horrifying details of being forced through conversion therapy as a 15-year-old kid.

Please be warned if you have trauma around religion or sexual harassment; Drew’s story is hard to hear. But it’s still happening every day to kids across the country, so it’s crucial that we talk about it. 

LGBTQ+ youth who go through conversion therapy face a higher suicide risk — not just while they’re experiencing it, but for the rest of their lives. It's a practice that manipulates parents into traumatizing their kids for simply being themselves.

When you hear about a 60-year-old man breaking down a 15-year-old child, including techniques like gaslighting and sexual harassment, it’s hard not to draw connections to other powerful abusers like Epstein. Again and again, we see this country protect the rich and powerful and cast aside women and children.

The episode wasn’t all doom and gloom, though! After discussion Drew’s personal story, we talked about joy in the LGBTQ+ community. When so many powerful forces — from the government to your parents — are telling you that who you are is wrong, fun and community can be lifesaving.

This episode is honest and heartbreaking, but it’s also joyful and full of love. Despite the trauma he experienced, Drew is one of the most kind, uplifting, and competent people that all of us here at Red Wine & Blue have ever had the pleasure to meet. We know you’ll love him too. ❤️

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

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YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Sh!t Episode 30: The Truth About Conversion Therapy (with Drew Amstutz)

LaFonda: Hi everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I'm LaFonda cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue. 

Katie: I'm Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine and Blue and LaFonda, can I just say, I love the way you say the title of this podcast every single time.

LaFonda: Really?  

Katie: Yeah. I dunno. Just like there's a cadence about it. It almost makes me feel like I'm not gonna lose my shit. 

LaFonda: Okay!

Katie: So thank you. 

LaFonda: I'll try and keep doing that. I dunno how I'm doing it. Uh, Katie this week was amazing. So this week we had Drew on our podcast. Drew Amstutz is our chief of staff at Red Wine and Blue, and he started with us almost five years ago as an intern.

Katie: Crazy. 

LaFonda: And then quickly became an important part of the organization. I don't think any of us could really do our jobs without Drew. I know I couldn't. So I'm not gonna ask you to tell me what you thought about the podcast. I'm just gonna ask you how much you loved it. 

Katie: I loved it so much. I mean, I, it blows my mind that Drew first came to us as an intern. He played an incredible role in the organization really from day one. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: And today's conversation meant so much to me because Drew does project such competence. Such joy, honestly. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: That I think sometimes people can almost think he doesn't have a care in the world. The reason why we had Drew on now is two weeks ago, the Supreme Court ruled that states can't ban conversion therapy and Drew, during this episode, shares with us his very personal story of going through conversion therapy himself, and I'm so grateful to him for sharing his story. 

LaFonda: There's so much depth and so much that he has been through in this 26 years, and we've had this conversation, we know this just from being friends with Drew, but I'm glad that people will get to hear what that experience of being, um, young and what having to go through conversion therapy was like, because… absolute garbage, like absolute garbage.

But having known someone as kind and as capable as Drew, and then knowing that like at some point in his life someone was like, here's something traumatic that I'm gonna put you through just because… is heartbreaking. 

Katie: Can you imagine what a force Drew is gonna be by the time he's our age? Like, it just, I just, I just can't believe that he is 26 years old, I mean, I know it, but I just, every time I think about it, it blows me away. So, you know, we are both exactly 20 years older than. It almost makes me scared, but like in the best way of like what he's gonna be doing, you know, when he gets hired.  

LaFonda: Alright, well Drew, thanks for joining us. 

Drew: I'm so glad to be here with you all. 

Katie: The specialest of special guests. 

Drew: Well, this is my favorite podcast, so I'm excited to finally be on it.

LaFonda: So two weeks ago, the Supreme Court ruled that states can't ban conversion therapy saying that it's free speech, but conversion therapy isn't just any kind of free speech. And Drew, you know that better than anyone because you actually went through it. So let's start by you just sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners.

Drew: Yeah, so when I was 15, I fell in love with a boy. There's a Taylor Swift song about it. Um, but when I was 15, um, I came out to my parents. My parents are very, you know, conservative, evangelical. My dad was actually a pastor at one point. And when I came out to them, um, they were one shocked, which I don't know how they were, but they were shocked that I was gay.

And, and they had been convinced by pastors and leaders in the faith community where they grew up that that was not okay and that there were solutions to fixing this problem. And so when I was 15, my parents sent me to conversion therapy. And there are many forms of conversion therapy, and the one that I went through was one that was disguised as family counseling and was in more of like a traditional psychologist office. But the harms that came from that were just as real as some of the ones that you hear about on TV. 

And for a year and a half I would meet every week with a man who was in his sixties, and he would be trying to, every week he would try to convince me that I wasn't actually gay and that the devil was working through me, and that if I just worked a little bit harder, I too could be cured. 

So I would meet with him every week and he would focus on different ways to try to break down my confidence and help me to see that actually I was straight and that I wasn't gay, even though that obviously wasn't the case. And through sexual harassment, through trying to convince me that I had an eating disorder, through telling me that I wasn't allowed to cry after the session, because then that would be wearing off the effects of the conversion therapy… he really took a toll on my mental health and caused some trauma that I'm still unpacking to this day. 

LaFonda: So he created trauma in order to convince you that you weren't gay.

Drew: They're actually, it's, it sounds outlandish, but it's actually really smart the way that they do this. They understand and they do research to see where queer youth are in their development and what questions they have. And so he would regularly ask me things like, you probably aren't sure about these feelings that you have, playing into, you know, just the general puberty that teens go through in addition to the unique experiences of LGBTQ youth.

He would prey on those points of confusion and say, “you probably aren't understanding this,” and I “probably feel this way, right? Well actually this is what's going on.” And so he would prey on the fact that I was 15 that I didn't have any gay role models, that I had never met someone else who was gay, and he would try to fill in the blanks for the information that I didn't have, which was a byproduct of growing up where I grew up.

Katie: Wow. It's like the exact opposite of everything that I feel like we're taught in terms of actually how to parent and role model and, and, and be that guide on the side and help kids feel independence and through that a greater sense of agency. I mean, you said all of this was meant to break down your confidence. 

And thank you for, first of all, you know, I've said it too before, but I, I'm so sorry you went through this. Also just thank you for sharing because I think that most people, I would guess, have heard of conversion therapy, but I'm not sure they always know exactly what that means. And as you said, it can mean a lot of different things. This is your own experience, but those are really vivid examples of the kinds of things that this therapist used to manipulate you to break you down, not in order to build you back up.

Drew: Yeah. 

Katie: But just to break you down. 

Drew: Honestly, the manipulation extended far beyond me into my parents as well, because they were sold a lie that for thousands upon thousands of dollars they could fix their son. And that if they truly loved their son, they would continue to go through this process. And it was through that tough love is what it was couched in.

That if they were truly my parents and they loved me and they cared for me, they would go through with this. And if they were to ever give up, that would mean giving up on me, giving up on my soul, and giving up on my eternity. And so in a way, they, they prey on and manipulate the parents just as much as they do the person who's going through the therapy. 

Katie: Because they needed to keep paying him money so he could break you down.

Drew: Yes, and that was his business model. This was all within a family counseling office, um, that needed to pay its own bills. 

LaFonda: It's like the opposite of what therapy is set up to do. I actually struggle with how this is even ethical and legal. 

Drew: So that's what a lot of people don't understand. This is a very archaic process that people just assume that we as a society have moved past, but in reality, more than half of the states in the United States allow conversion therapy even for minors to still exist and when states go through the effort – 23 plus the District of Columbia have gone through the effort to try to get this practice banned, at least for minors – you have what happened last, you know, a couple weeks ago with the Supreme Court, where they overturned Colorado's ban on conversion therapy for minors under the grounds of free speech, under the grounds of freedom of expression, and of religion. 

Not taking into account the fact that this expression, this religion is proven, is proven to have very tangible impacts on people, on kids for the rest of their lives. 92% of the people who go through conversion therapy end up having severe suicidal ideation. Not just while they're in conversion therapy and not just through the remainder of their, you know, childhood. It extends for the rest of their entire life. 

And I also face that every day, and it ends up coming into play when I'm having bright points in my life, actually. So when the best of things happen, when things are going really well in life, I sometimes have to sit back and think, “wow, I was so close when I was 15 and when I was 16 to ending it all and to not getting to live through these really bright spots in my life.” And unfortunately, this conversion therapist, this institution, those that are profiting off of this practice, they did that to me. And according to the law, they will never have to face any sort of consequences. 

Katie: Because of this protection, they're calling it free speech instead of calling what it actually is. Which is abuse. 

Drew: Correct.

Katie: I mean, harassment, yes. That is open shut. Because you have described it in such, you know, clear terms of what this actually is. I feel like there's a big gap here. Like people just don't understand, like, “Oh, okay. Agree to disagree.” 

Drew: And can, can we actually dig into that actually, because in the age of Epstein, as we're starting to see the rich and the powerful and the well connected get away with sexual abuse of minors, let's talk about the fact that a 60 plus year old man had a 15-year-old child in his office and was trying to turn him on by going in vivid detail to describe having sex with women and describing women's genitalia and trying to see if I would get an erection by talking through some of these parts of the woman's of a woman's body. He was 60. I was 15. And he would be trying to see if I would get hard off of this. 

This is exactly what they talk about when they talk about grooming kids. It's not people in the LGBTQ community, those that want to have families, those that want to contribute to society. It's the people who are in power who are trying to use that power to push down others. 

LaFonda: That blows my mind. 

Katie: The Epstein parallel is so real. It's so accurate. I mean, it is. It is the same idea that would sit, that would protect what you went through as free speech, it's the same thing that led people in power and continue to lead people in power to protect everyone that was a part of Epstein's entire conspiracy that led to so many children being harassed, raped, you know. I mean that's, that's the path you go down. That is not a reach. That is exactly the same thing, 

LaFonda: Which makes that whole thing more infuriating. Cause it just is another example of how we're protecting the wrong people. We're protecting a group of pedophiles and not a group of kids who actually need it. 

Katie: And it's continuing today. They Epstein files that they redact everything that could make anyone in power look bad… they take that all out, but yet the words of the victims, the people who actually need to be protected, the survivors? Nope. On full display. 

LaFonda: In every example, we are proving that we refuse to protect kids and women and it's insane. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Drew: Yeah. And I think a lot of us just who've gone through this for years and have kind of just had institutions just fail us repeatedly… like I was not surprised at all when I got the news notification that the Supreme Court overturned this. I'm now becoming used to the fact that I just won't have any rights being protected and I need to protect myself through community, through friendships, through trusted safe relationships that I have with people, you know, across the country. Those are gonna be the people that keep me safe. It's not the government and in fact, the government is in many ways the institution that is trying to harm me the most. 

Katie: Thank you for connecting these dots, because I think sometimes when people do hear about conversion therapy, it can feel like something very foreign, very distant, maybe. “I don't know exactly what that is. It's only happening to a few people. It's never has anything to do with my life.” But I don't know how anyone listening, in very much the same way as we've heard all these revelations from the Epstein files… you know, I, as a woman, as a mom, you know, it's, it's hit me very personally in terms of the abuse of power and the impacts of violations that that can have on children's lives, on women's lives. 

And it's the same thing that what you're describing and given where we are, you just said you weren't surprised by the Supreme Court decision and that you're looking to community. There are so many gay kids all across the country right now who I think are in the exact same spot. So, I mean, Drew, what do you have to say to our listeners who might be hearing all this and it's breaking their hearts and they wanna do something to help and it makes them feel like, what could I possibly do? I don't control the Supreme Court. What can we do to support gay kids out there who are struggling in our lives?

Drew: We have to speak up more. We've done a really good job of illustrating that we can't be bystanders when somebody is being directly bullied on the street. They have a whole TV series of “what would you do if you see the barista getting yelled at by the angry customer.” But at the same time, we've just allowed parents of those that we know to just carry on treating their kids who are gay in a way that just isn't right. 

And I think we all know somebody who, you know, you see their kid going down the street and you think that kid is probably gay and that's okay, but their parents might not think so. And instead of intervening, instead of having conversations with those parents, instead of approaching that kid and talking to that kid, we just kind of like let parents parent however they want, consequences be damned. 

And I think it's on all of us to have those conversations with those in our lives about what can happen when we don't provide the safety net for our kids. What can happen when we don't provide a welcoming space for them where they know that they can come to their parent about anything and they can have a safe space in their home.

And actually when we don't provide that safe space, that's where danger happens. And that's where you can have parents who get manipulated and parents who decide to go down the conversion therapy route. And many parents who then end up losing their kid, either through losing the relationship or losing them entirely through suicide.

Katie: A lot of the same parents who might be choosing conversion therapy for their kids are some of the very same that we've heard over the last few years. Talk a lot about parental rights. 

Drew: Yeah. 

Katie: And the way that plays out is that they wanna take their view on parenting and mandate it onto everyone else. Now parents like LaFonda and I have been pushing back on that pretty hard saying, you know, “you do your thing, but actually that's not how I want to parent. And you don't get to tell us how.” 

You're saying something a little bit further, a little bit more from that, that I think is important though too, about these parents and the choices that they're making. 

So I'm just curious, like how does it land for you when you hear that same type of parents who are saying, “I want conversion therapy for my kid” saying “I want my parental rights protected and I should be able to choose that for my kid and I should be able to try to convince them they're not gay and I don't want anyone else talking to my kid and saying that it's okay to be who you are.” 

Drew: Yeah. I think it all comes down to like, what do you consider conversion therapy to be? If conversion therapy is abuse, we as a society have said that you cannot abuse your kid. You can't lock your kid in a room and give them food off of a plate on the floor and have that be their life. You can't, you know, beat your kid to the point where they're bleeding. You can't keep your kid in unsanitary conditions.

And this is just another human right that everyone has, to live their life and not be subjected to a practice that only makes them suicidal and does not cure them of a disease. And so I think it just comes down to what you consider conversion therapy to be. And I'll also just say that when it comes to having those conversations, we need to have protections at the federal level so that all kids aren't going down this route with conversion therapy and aren't exposed to this.

At the same time, the government, a police officer, a judge saying to a parent, “you shouldn't do this to your kid” is gonna have nowhere near the same amount of impact as the listeners on this podcast and everyone else talking to the people that they know that they love and who trust them and know them as a parent and their values. And so that's why I think it's very important that each of us have these conversations because we'll always be able to influence our friends and family more than the government can. 

Katie: And our own kids. You know, I mean, I do still hear to this day the same things I heard when I was growing up among kids. You know that, “oh, that's so gay,” you know, and that is meant to say… something negative. I don't always know, something negative though, about whoever the kid is who's being targeted. And yeah, we've gotta disrupt that. 

Drew: I will say as, as someone who's gay and who grew up as a gay kid, it is very obvious to see who had those conversations with their kids and who didn't. When I was in the locker room and when I was playing sports in high school and, and around some of those very people who would say, that's so gay, or use the f-slur or something, you would see the those in the room that would wince and those who would really not be okay with that, but not quite have the courage to speak up.

And I think this comes back to, again, we can't just be bystanders as kids, as LGBTQ kids are abused. And instead we have to have that courage to speak up and defend others. 

Katie: That, that actually feels so empowering to me. Like as a mom, you know, I do have these conversations with my kids and sometimes you feel like it doesn't matter, but I don't know. Drew, thanks. That makes me feel like it really does.  

Drew: It does. And have those conversations before it's too late. I've had so many people who I went to high school with, who went to college, got exposed to a wider worldview and have messaged me. And it's been some of the jocks, the people who you would just never expect, who have come around and said, “I regret how either I treated you or I let others treat you. And I wish that I wouldn't have sat by and let it all happen. I wish that I would've spoken up because what you went through wasn't okay.” 

LaFonda: Drew, listen, I'm not gonna cry on a Monday morning. So, um, 

Drew: Wouldn’t be the first time we've made each other cry.

LaFonda: But sometimes you need some of that exposure. You need to be out in the world and experiencing something else. And I actually am glad that they came back to you, 'cause that doesn't always happen either. That takes a lot of courage and accountability to come back to a person that you harmed and say, you know, “Listen, I have been exposed to some things that are bigger than me and bigger than you, and I take accountability for things that I may have done in the past.” That's a really big deal. Um, even if you don't wanna hear it, 'cause… 

Drew: “Where were you?” And I, I think that speaks to just the changing tide on LGBTQ acceptance. In the last decade, acceptance has gone up so much and you might not think that based off of the parental rights movement, and you might not think that based off of the book bands and everything else, but the tide has turned. Our society has declared that gay people are a part of our society. They're loved. We want them to be included. And no matter how loud the far right extremists are in all of this, we are the majority on this. 

And actually it shows that it's because gay people talked with their family and their friends and their family and their friends talked with their family and their friends, that's how we had this monumental tide shift in the last 10 to 15 years. And as someone who came out in 2015 before Obergefell and before there was the right to marry, I have seen so much advancement and so much growth just in the acceptance and in this movement. I'm not going backward. I am not gonna let us go back to the days of 2015 and prior. We're only going forward. 

LaFonda: Love it. Love it. So let's talk about, let's talk about joy then. Let's move forward, because you and I have talked about this and we talk about how both, um, the Black community, the queer community, have often leaned into joy to sustain ourselves. Where do you think that, speaking from the queer community perspective, where do you think that comes from?

Drew: I think it comes from a survival instinct and a defense mechanism when you have seemingly the whole world against you. And when you have the people who have the most power, the government, large institutions, your parents, when you have power up against you, and it seems like there's no way out.

When things like what happened with the Supreme Court case come down on your phone, there's nothing else you can do in that moment when you're powerless than to just let go and say, “You know what? We'll worry about this tomorrow, but tonight I'm just gonna dance. And I'm just gonna have fun. I'm gonna be in community. And I'm gonna fight, but I'm not gonna fight right now because right now what I eat most is community. I need connection.”

And in the gay community, the place where we find this community is in gay bars, with music, with lights, with dancing.

Katie: And they're so damn fun! 

Drew: It's so damn fun. And it's, it's fun… as a way of surviving, not fun for fun's sake, which can actually make it all the more real and all the more special.

LaFonda: That's actually really important, like it's fun as a way of survival, not just fun for fun's sake. Sometimes it's… for us, sometimes it's fun for fun's sake, but it is fun for survival. Sometimes you need that to mentally be able to continue to move forward. So., again, podcast, how to not lose your shit, sometimes the fun is just so you don't lose your shit. So I think that's a really important point. 

Katie: Okay. So for both of you though, I think that this can evolve sometimes, I'm just gonna say maybe in some weird ways. Okay. Right. Do you ever feel like this puts you in the box? So like how does that play out for you personally? Like do those tropes feel just, I mean…. false, but also like stifling somehow?

Drew: It is. It is because when you're just always the gay best friend, you're the side character. You're not the main character. 

Katie: Mm-hmm. 

Drew: And instead of being an accessory, we actually live our lives as full individuals. And a full individual doesn't just have the fun moments. A full individual has the sorrow and the trauma and the hurt. And when it comes to your gay friends right now, they're going through a lot. They're seeing a country that just voted in someone who was blatantly homophobic, who is blatantly transphobic, who tried to rise to power on trans hate and LGBTQ hate. And when you see a country that could elect that person, it can be really hard. 

And while yes, we do put on our smile, it's not because we're not hurt, it's actually because we're hurt. And I think that that's not, that's not recognized. Sometimes it's just easier to be there for our laughs and not be there for our tears. And a true friend would do both. 

Katie: “We put on our smile because we're hurt.” That's really beautiful and I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding there, I'll say, you know, just like from the outside world, it's like, “Oh no, they're good!”

Drew: Yeah. And I think that that's why we, we can't not have these conversations with those in our lives, whether they're gay or not. We have to check in on each other. We're all going through so much right now. The human body was not meant to take in all the information of all the conflicts and all the emergencies and all the rapid response things going on. We were not built to take in the whole world's problems all at once. And those of us in marginalized communities were getting it tenfold. And so we have to check in on each other. We have to.

LaFonda: And make sure you have the ability to, checking in on your friends, making sure they have the ability to express all of the emotions. Sometimes you get boxed into just being fun or having that joy, or being the gay friend, the gay best friend. You don't wanna be stuck there, but when you are having that down time. 

I can imagine… well, I'm gonna speak for me. Black joy is a real thing and Black girl magic is a real thing. You know what I mean? But like, there are real people, real emotions, real things happening in the background of Black lives. And when you are not giving people the space to experience all of those things openly, when you have to experience real life, real pain, real emotion, real depth only privately. That weighs heavy on people, right? You don't have the same space to process in groups, process in community that other people do.

And then when you do try to unload those things or try to process those things in other places, it's not received in the same way that it is for other people. I think about, um, you know, I'm just gonna use Black women and white women, how white women are allowed to cry and break down and be vulnerable and be soft and be all of the things in public spaces and with other people. And black women are not. That is a heavy burden to carry and we have got to get away from that.

Katie: I think it has something to do with what you said about the whole expectation that the white person and the straight person is the main character. It's like, “Wait. No, you're, you're, you're pulling, you're pulling too much attention with those tears.” You know what I mean? “You're supposed to be supporting character.”

Drew: Yeah. “This is my airtime.” Yes. 

Katie: Whereas if the white woman, if I cry, it's like, “Oh, yeah. Well, that's just what the main character does. We have our ups, we have our downs, we have our highs, we have our lows.”

LaFonda: Absolutely. You only are watching the emotions of the gay best friend or the Black best friend when it's in relation to what is happening to this main character.

Drew: Yeah. And I think for me, what it ends up being is my emotions don't get to truly come through until after I've disconnected the call, or after I've shut off the Zoom, or after I got into my car after an event. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Drew: In those private moments, that's when I get to start becoming myself and the scene is now closed.

Katie: We can't operate this way. Like forcing people to live these disconnected lives and like you can only be the supporting character here and wait until your car, until you can let that main character, those whole feelings of who we are… this is just creating disconnection. It's starving us of the healing that we actually need to be in this together, to overcome all the powerful forces that are completely corrupt. We are, we're starving ourselves in addition to what those in power are doing to wield that power upon others. 

Drew: But maybe that's the point of all of this. Maybe that's the point. They want us to be without power. They want us to be disconnected, they want us to be broken down. And so they're trying to divide us and they're trying to take away our community and they're trying to close gay bars and they're trying to ban the gay books, and they're trying to erase DEI and they're trying to do it all so that we can't be the main character. 

Katie: So the most radical thing we can do is refuse to accept that plot line.

LaFonda: Yeah. And so I think conversations like this are always going to be important, even if we're told that we shouldn't have them. And then past these conversations, when you are in spaces with other people, how do you show up in those conversations? Right? When you are in a room with someone who is queer, when you're in a room with the gay best friend, when you're in a room with a Black woman and they start talking and you're like, “oh, but let me tell you about the experience that matches that experience. I wanna tell you about my story too.” 

Drew: “Just wait a minute.” Yeah. 

LaFonda: “What are you doing right now?” Right. Like take inventory of how you are showing up in conversations too, because that's also really important. 

Drew: Yeah. And I think you'll be surprised with just how much it's shown through appreciation. Like we, we appreciate when you ask the questions, we appreciate when you want to hear about how life has been going in candidly, in the last couple years. Yeah. We appreciate that. 

Katie: I see both of y'all as main characters. I'm happy to be your side piece, your third wheel, your supporting character any damn day. If I could just be in the same movie with y'all, with either one of you, 

Drew: We'll rotate. We'll take turns.

LaFonda: Yeah. Yeah. 

Drew: Because that's what true friendship is all about, is taking turns. 

LaFonda: Yes.

LaFonda: Well. As always, Drew, it has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Um, I love talking to you, one of my favorite people in the world, so thank you for joining us and helping us not lose our shit today for just a few minutes.

Drew: Well, thank you so much for having me and for discussing this really important topic. 

Katie: Love you!

Drew: Love you more!