What Patriotism Means To A Veteran (with Katie Chorbak)

Memorial Day is almost here, so we thought it was a perfect moment to check in with a veteran. 

Katie Chorbak isn't just any veteran -- she's passionate about helping other vets in her community adjust to civilian life and heal their mental health. She started a movement called Our Sister's Keeper, which advocates for veterans who survived sexual assault just like Katie herself did. She was also arrested last month at the Capitol for protesting the war in Iran alongside other vets.

Basically, Katie is a badass.

We were also lucky enough to be joined by Red Wine & Blue organizer Torrie, who grew up in a military family and is now a military spouse. She shared her own perspective on military service, community support, and how being honest about your mental health is the first step to feeling better.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

HTNLYS E35: “What Patriotism Means to a Veteran

LaFonda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I am LaFonda Cousin, part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue.

Torrie: And I am Torrie. I am an organizer at Red Wine and Blue, organizing on the ground, and constantly getting inspired by all of our amazing women in our network. 

LaFonda: Thank you, Torrie, for filling in for Katie. So Katie is out on PTO spending time with family today, and we love that for her. So Torrie is filling in, sort of as both a guest and a co-host. 

Torrie: I know. They're gonna, they're gonna be sick of me by the end of this episode. 

LaFonda: We are never ever, ever, ever, ever sick of you, Torrie. So Memorial Day is coming up, and today we're talking about military members and veterans, and I'm so glad you're here with me today, because you've been a part of a military family for basically your whole life. Your dad was in the military, and you are a military spouse… 

Torrie: Yeah. I mean, it's really crazy when you, when I hear that, 'cause it's true. All I know is military life. You know, my father is a, a, was a Black man who became a commander in the Navy. Like, everything that he has had to go through and grow through has just been so inspiring to watch.

Seeing my husband on his own journey with Special Operations, and seeing what he's gone through and grown through, and then now having my chance to be the spouse and the mom, I have a lot more grace with my mother. Because it's the Wild, Wild West out here. But it is a privilege and an honor always, even when our times don't always reflect it. Especially, again, as African Americans in the military. That's a whole nother relationship. 

LaFonda: Yeah. There's a lot of support that military spouses have to do, so I give, I give kudos to service members, but I also just give all of the grace and the accolades and the kudos in the world to military spouses, because, I think I mentioned this in our conversation, I was a military spouse for, like, a second and a half.

Torrie: And you're like, "I'm out of here." 

LaFonda: I gotta go. Haha.

Torrie: Haha 

LaFonda: And he was a Marine, which was a whole other situation. That's a whole other level of chaos. So yeah, I give all of the accolades in the world to military spouses, but there's a lot happening in the military, and just like, just in, in government and politics right now that make it even more crazy.

And we are talking about, on this podcast, how to not lose your shit. So before we go into our conversation, how are you, Torrie, not losing your shit with everything happening in the world? 

Torrie: My goodness. It changes from week to week, so it's good that you guys ask this question often. This week it is community. Like, leaning so hard into our military community. We had some of our best friends over last night. It is now summertime, so we were out on the porch, and my husband made the best, like, Jamaican jerk chicken, and we just were like... We had such a good time, and the conversation actually was all about mental health.

Both of the couple, the family that came over, our kids are friends, but one is active duty, the other one is a veteran. And she has been so vulnerable to let us in on her journey to mental health. And that has also, like, ministered and spoke to my daughter's mental health. And so we were having this very healthy, amazing conversation about mental health, being a supportive spouse, being a parent that can see mental health issues in your child and not run away from that, but lean in and try to get the resources.

Like, just such a beautiful, uplifting conversation, and how ultimately the way through all of this is our village, and being vulnerable with one another, and being able to lean into one another. That is the one thing that saved me this weekend, is just my people and being able to be honest with my people.

What about you? 

LaFonda: I think that it is, right now it's just finding things that bring me... So one, I'm just gonna shout out that I love that you're talking about mental health with your village. I love that we're talking about mental health more often, but I just want to acknowledge that May is also Mental Health Awareness Month.

Torrie: That's right. That's right. 

LaFonda: It's an important time to be talking about that, but I love that you're talking about that with your village specifically. 

And I think for me, it's really just- I am trying to be intentional about spending time with the people that bring me joy, and just finding things that bring me joy in general: art, music, and just finding things that are beautiful in the world, especially right now when everything feels chaotic. 

So sometimes there's a little bit of guilt when you're like, "I am gonna post that I was, like, at this concert," or, you know, "at this art gallery," but then I'm like, no, those are the things that are important too, when everything else feels like it's heavy. Because if we let go of the fact that there are also things that are beautiful in the world and just get stuck in what's not, people lose hope. 

Torrie: Yes. I love that, and please continue, because I was just reading Ruha Benjamin's Viral Justice book this weekend, and in it she talks about, like, beauty has a space. Like, beauty is not, not frivolous. Like, beauty is what our souls need to continue. And so to your point, absolutely, like, keep creating beauty, keep intaking beauty. It is the one thing that actually does feed into me having hope. 'Cause without any beauty, without my garden, without art, without music, I really… hope is, I can't find it.  

LaFonda: Yes. As long as there is one single item that pops out of my garden that is edible, I am a gardener. I don't care if it's one tomato, a sliver of lettuce, like, a scoop of peas, I'm a gardener as long as one thing pops out of the dirt. 

Torrie: That's right. That's right. 

LaFonda: All right. In addition to you, Torrie, being on our podcast today and this wonderful conversation, we are also being joined by Katie Chorbak, a veteran who lives in Florida and started a movement to support women like herself who survived sexual assault in the military.

This was just a really, really wonderful conversation. There is lots of heaviness in this conversation, but just so much information, and I'm really, really grateful that Katie came on to the podcast today and had this conversation. So let's go ahead and bring on Katie!

Katie: Thank you for having me!

LaFonda: So first of all, obviously, thank you for your service. I am so glad you're here. I'm glad we're gonna get to have this conversation with you, but I'd really love to hear more about what made you decide to enlist in the first place, and whether or not you've felt supported by the government lately. And honestly, whether you’ve felt supported by the American people lately.

Katie: So my path to joining the military is a little bit strange. Uh, I am a fifth-generation combat veteran of my family, so you would think that at 18 I was just gonna jump right in. Um, I was a drug addict by that point in my life. And so I knew I was either gonna die or do something different. And so I joined the military, and I actually did my detox and basic training, which sucks. Zero out of 10, don't recommend. But no, I did get to continue my family's legacy, which means a lot to me today. Back then, it really meant nothing. 

And as far as, you know, like, the American people and the administration… I am a gay veteran. I am a woman veteran. And as soon as the administration took office, like, all of our history was deleted. Like, that was the first step they took. And then they have put in a bunch of policies after the fact over the last year and five months that are nothing but detrimental to people like me: veterans, active duty, and things like that. 

When you look at, like, the money that was meant actually endemically just for mental health resources, especially within the VA, it got reallocated to go towards the war. So when we start wars, something's getting cut, and the first things that always gets cut is MST programs that are for PTSD. It's extra group therapies. It's all of these resources. It's mental health. Like, that's what gets cut. 

I say it all the time, like, you gotta be a real piece of shit to start another war and cut the VA. Like, like, that, like, th- like, there is just something seriously wrong with a government that does that. And that's why I made the decision to go to DC and get arrested in the rotunda of the Ca- of the Cannon House building, because I have daughters. I have two small children. I want them to be the sixth generation of my family. There is a sense of pride in that. But right now? Over my dead body. Right? Like, literally over my dead body. Because we're not funding the things that we need. 

And the American people, I think it's kinda split, right? Like, you have everybody that has this, "We all wanna support our troops," like, trope, but they don't really know what that means. Everybody internally wants to feel like they support us and they're, like, doing right by the people fighting for this country. I feel supported by some, but by most I don't think they know what we need and how to support us, and unless we start having these conversations of telling them, they'll never know. Right? Of like, how, how, what does support look like? What do we need? 

But no, as far as the American government, this is the only time... Not the only time, there's a lot of times throughout my career and being a veteran I felt less supported, but now I'm actually scared that I'm gonna lose my benefits, that my house, even though I can afford it, that it's gonna be foreclosed on at some point.

And so, you know, no, I don't feel supported by the American government, and I think the American public, once we tell them what we need, they will support us better. 

LaFonda: There's a lot of layers to your story about joining the military that I think are, like, obviously different than what I personally was expecting coming into this conversation, that I think other people were expecting.

How has your relationship with patriotism evolved, especially during a time that the word gets weaponized. And your story is more complicated than other people's, and it's just, like, honestly, it's a shitshow right now with everything else happening. Like, the word patriotism should be something that feels prideful, but there's so much happening. So how has your relationship with that word evolved? 

Katie: Oh, man. Growing up in a family that, you know, my, my grandfather liberated Dachau. My father was in Vietnam. Patriotism meant everything. Like, my uncles are FBI agents. Um, like, I come from a family of service to this country, and I always took it, like, to heart, right? Like, we're patriots, we're doing the right thing. 

That kinda started to shift when I came home from the military. I started seeing my battle buddies kill themselves in alarming numbers. I started to see the truth come out as to why we were in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then now, more than ever, patriotism to me today is fighting back against a government that is ripping apart our Constitution.

That's true patriotism, is believing in your convictions, no matter if you're the only one standing. Like, I took an oath to the Constitution. That's my patriotism today, is that oath. It's not these people out here waving flags, screaming that we're not patriots. Like, you're not the patriots. You wanna rip apart this country. Like, we're out here trying to hold it together. 

The true patriots are the ones that are fighting back against corruption, against murder of children, women's rights being taken away. That's patriotism. But I, I err on the side of caution of even saying it, right? Because patriot has been co-opted by the far right.

LaFonda: Yeah, and turned into something gross and ugly. And so, yeah, that's really why I wanted to, to ask that question, 'cause it should be. It should be all of the things that you named, and then it's been turned into this, like, whenever you hear “patriot”, it's associated with, like- MAGA hats. And when you see um, an American flag, it almost feels like I shouldn't love that flag when I should, and it just it feels gross.

Torrie: I think that patriotism for anyone who grew up… whether you grew up in the military, you served, you're a spouse, whatever, it's been a, kinda almost very similar to deconstructing your faith, like having to deconstruct your patriotism and what it means to be an American. And can I hold both? Can I be a proud American and still demand that America actually lives up to all the promises that on paper it says, right?

And so it's, it's definitely a shedding of what we grew up thinking patriotism was, but to me it's... That makes it more... uh, it's not a counterfeit patriotism. It is an authentic patriotism that says, yes, America is deeply flawed, and I am still going to stand up and I am gonna advocate for all these Americans, white, Black, gay, straight, Christian, Muslim. Because I believe the pledge that I took every day and all throughout my public education, I believe that America can be a place where there is freedom and justice for all.

But that comes with us standing up and fighting for America and believing in her, in the real, the real her, not this like caricature that we've been given. 

LaFonda: Or this version that was not built for everyone intentionally. Yes. 

So I just, I wanna get to your movement. So you started a movement called Our Sister's Keeper, which supports survivors of sexual violence in the military. How do you handle the trauma of, I know this is a really heavy question, how do you handle the trauma of being a survivor and a veteran? 

Katie: A lot of drugs. No, I'm kidding. No. Um, so obviously the, there is the therapy portion of it that ties heavily into that, but for me, it is helping others, right? Like that's, that's where I find my healing and my sanity. So I, after I got sober, I just poured myself into other people. Like, trying to find their pain and mine, and then being like, "Hey, this worked here," right? 

And then always having mentors, 'cause I can get squirrely. I am a squirrely, squirrely wonder sometimes. And so I always have a male mentor to make sure that I know how to talk to men. I have a Black female mentor who puts me in my place real quick and tells me about myself. And then I have a policy mentor, right? And so whenever I make really, really big decisions, I run it by all three. Like, "Hey, is this the right move?" 

Maintaining strong female friendships of people going through the same thing, especially in the sexual assault survivor community. You know, we're at the sixth generation of women that have been sexually assaulted in the military. So learning from the first generation of women, the World War II women to today. Because when we started our movement in 2020 surrounding Vanessa Guillen, do you know how many, like, women I had to explain that they were actually sexually assaulted?

Like, my own AA sponsor, who has sponsored me for years, I started this movement and she goes, "You know, Katie Bug, I think I was sexually assaulted." And I said, "All right, let's hear the story." And she was the first-- one of the first three women on Diego Garcia, and she explained, "Well, it happened to all three of us every night, so we just thought it was part of the deal." Imagine me telling a 70-year-old woman like, "Hey, you should probably file and have that conversation," right? 

And so it's having a strong network of women and, you know, maintaining your medicine and all of your appointments because as veterans, we tend to, like, take medicine half the time and then we're like, "Oh, we're good." And then we stop. Um, and so it's like maintaining that regimen, having open conversations with your therapist about things that are not working. I mean, I had to go through multiple regimens of medicines to figure out what worked, and it's just putting in that dedication to realizing at some point they'll figure it out, right?

What saved my life wasn't the VA. Like, I, I give them-- I give credit where credit is due. The VA helped me with appointments, with a structure, with medicine. But what truly helped me was I found a nonprofit that was just full of veterans. And all we did was community service work. Like, we weren't trying to change the world. We were just, like, cleaning up schools. And that saved my life because when you're talking to a civilian doctor that doesn't understand, like, what you're going through, like, "Hey, I have not slept in days. I don't understand this. Help." It's the veteran to veteran connection.

And same with active duty, right? Like, when I was on active duty, it's looking at your battle buddy and being like, "You need to go to mental health," no matter the stigma attached, 'cause there is the stigma. But it's the veteran to veteran, active duty to veteran, active duty to active duty connection because we've been there and it's... Like, there's a saying in AA, "I can spot it because I got it." I can spot PTSD because I got it. I can spot a TBI because I got it. And I can help because I've been through the speech therapy for the TBI, I've been through all the therapy for the PTSD. And if you don't like the VA, sweet, here's a bunch of other options. 

Torrie: That are more, like, community-based and people-to-people based. Yeah. 

LaFonda: Yeah. I love this talk about community, 'cause that's, I mean, speaking the language, that's who we are. It's what we talk about here. And I'm almost wondering, like, for the people who are listening to this episode, I know that we're talking about veteran-to-veteran, but if you have someone in your life that you might know is a veteran or you see them struggling, what can you do to stand in the gaps?

What can you say to them to get them connected in one of these places? What is the thing that may have helped you take that step to get connected to one of those communities that might have helped you? 

Katie: So I encourage everybody to look up this organization. It's called Fire Watch. All right? It was started here in Jacksonville, in my city. It's expanded over the state of Florida, and it has cut down on veteran suicides by over 20%. Um, they are moving it nationwide. What it is is it is training civilians, companies, non-profits that have nothing to do with the veteran community on the signs of suicide within the PTSD community. And it's knowing those signs and having those resources, and your company can get, like, a badge that you're, like, a veteran safe space. 

I encourage everybody to look into this program. I had a hand in building it because veteran suicides have gone down in the state. Like, everything shows that. And it's, so it's knowing the resources that are available. I think we have a problem with dissemination of information across civilian to veteran structures of how to help one another. And that was the biggest thing, the outcome, was the Fire Watch. And so it's, like, going through trainings like that to spot it, to know the resources. 

And if end-all be-all, like, don't call the police. Don't. Like, just don't. Call your local mental health clinic before you call the police to a PTSD. Here, here in my own city, a wife called me at 2:00 in the morning, of my own battle buddy. I woke up, tried to drive across the city. It's the largest land city in the US. As I pulled up, they shot him dead. 

And I, I pleaded with JSO, "You need to set up mental health professionals. This is a large veteran population. Some of these are PTSD issues that you are not trained in." And so I do ask that if you know there is a veteran and they're in a, like, episode, take that pause before you call the police. Call 811. Call the veteran crisis line. Make that step so that we're not losing people to people that aren't trained in how to help us, right?

That's my biggest ask, don't call the police. Call some form of mental health professional. 'Cause police, they're amped up, right? And even if it's veteran to veteran, they're not gonna understand that, right? Like, we need to start having that open conversation of having mental health professionals with police forces across this country to deal with PTSD.

Torrie: Oh, my goodness, Katie. I'm so sorry for that experience, but you're absolutely right. I just saw that the Chicago mayor has, like, expanded their care, their crisis response and engagement, so you're, it, it is not calling the cops that... the cops are trained completely opposite of what you need in a mental health crisis. And so I'm hoping with Chicago expanding it, I hope more cities across our nation start to see the gap that is needed and, and how many lives could be saved if trained people showed up versus cops. 

And that's what we mean, I hate to take this all the way back, but, you know, defund the police was about that. It was about, we're not saying we don't want police to have funds. We're saying, can we take some of these funds and put them towards other resources that can help our communities?

LaFonda: Yeah. So when the police show up, it's not always... You're creating a bigger crisis when police show up and they're not specifically trained for mental health crises specifically.

What happens when people fall through the cracks in these situations? How can we stop that from happening? I know that there are these resources, but what happens when you're out of the military, before you get c- connected to these resources? How do we stop people from falling through the cracks? 

Katie: You just have to have that ongoing conversation with your local government. Like, "Hey, what are the resources we have?" “Can we create, like, a military and veterans affairs department? Can we capture all this data?” The only reason I was so tied in is my dad, right? Like, my dad was a part of the Legion. He knew who to connect me with, and I was immediately tied in. But you have first generation military members that get out, and they have no clue, no mentorship, no nothing. And so it is the educational piece that we're missing. It's the dissemination of information. It's meeting with local cities and building the lists. 

Torrie: And I'm gonna add to that the community- the people you keep, the community that you have. When my dad retired, he, he w- did 27 years in the Navy, and I remember my mom just being on him. Like, "Do you have your resume? Do you have a plan? What..." And I would... And I, as a child, I was a teenager, and I was like, "Can the man rest? Like, he's worked for 27 years, Mom. Can we, can we take a moment?" 

But in retrospect, you know, he got out, he maybe took a month off, and then he started working at a hospital. And my mom orchestrated the whole thing. And looking back as an adult and as a military spouse who has a husband who is currently active, I'm like, "Oh, she was actually looking out for her man." Like, she knew. She was like, "He is going to have to put his energy somewhere. I don't want him to get lost in all these cracks. Like, let me, let me lay it out for him." 

So I do think, you know, some people are lucky to have that community. Some people aren't. But I do just think the, the soldier, if any young first-time soldier is listening, I think your future self will thank you if you are as proactive as possible, if you have some kind of vision or roadmap of life after the military. 'Cause it does sneak up on you, and all of a sudden, there, the cracks are there and, and you fall. 

LaFonda: Yeah. I mean, shout-out to the military spouses, though, because as a military spouse for a brief period of time, but nothing like 27 years and the, and the time that you've spent doing it Torrie. So, like, honestly, that community is one thing, but military spouses put in a lot of time and a lot of effort outside of the things that people already know, right? The moving and the keeping families together and all of the things. 

Shout-out to the military spouses, because there is a special layer that people don't know of keeping someone together, understanding what it looks like on the other side, knowing what you need to, being proactive and knowing what you need to do to make sure that that transition on the other side means that someone is mentally prepared to move from something that they've been doing for 25, 30 years into something completely different. Just the day-to-day of changing from the military to civilian life is a big deal. 

So I just want to, you know, we always say thank you to service members, but also, you know, military spouses have a, a really big role. 

Katie: I can say this, like, 'cause I have a TBI, and like, I'm going through a divorce, but that is one thing I do appreciate my ex for, is she reworked our entire life for a system to where I could function, right? Like, 'cause without that system, I wasn't gonna function. 

And so, every spouse, like I, I hate when veterans in active duty make fun of spouses. Like, it's one of my biggest pet peeves, is because without my spouse, I wouldn't be sitting where I am today. I wouldn't have been able to build the organization. I wouldn't have been able to dedicate hours upon hours upon hours in advocacy. And I wouldn't do most of the stuff I do, right? Without the support of our spouse or making my appointments or writing on our calendar, "Don't forget your appointment this Thursday," 'cause I definitely would forget. Or texting me day of like- "Hey, your appointment's in an hour. Are you at least on your way?" Right? 

And that's the important part, right, that people don't get thanked enough for. Or like just lining up medicine or putting it in the like thing for us, right? Like, because a lot of us, we suck at executive function, and people don't realize that. We go from a very structured environment where our executive function is dictated to us, and then, then we go into an environment where our executive function is not dictated to us. And we're like, "How does the world function? Like, where am I supposed to be? What time we waking up?" Right? And that's what we lean on our spouses for. It's like, "Well, we don't have to get up at 6:00, but you should probably not sleep till noon," right? 

And so it's, it's that portion that I'm thankful for, right? Of every civilian, every spouse like out there, that they take that time to dedicate so that we can function. 'Cause they give up their lives so that we can have careers, and then afterwards we don't thank them enough for giving up their careers for our careers. And it's like, man, what are we doing here? Like, we have spouses that travel the world with us that don't get to have careers, and then in the end in the veteran community we call them “dependants.” Like, what are we doing here? Like, without them, we couldn't function. Like, let's call it what it is. 

Torrie: And if we're really being honest, like who is depending on who here? Because it is a, it, it is interdependence, as it should be, but like, yeah. I hate that language and I hate how some spouses are talked about or even perceived through the civilian lens. Because a lot of us do end up becoming caretakers of our service member, and that is not talked about enough.

And I, especially the active duty military right now who joined when they were like fresh out of high school, okay? So we're almost close to retirement. There's been this huge expansion in what we know about mental health, thank God. So now, like we are all trying to do something that the generation before us did not do, so there, there's not resources. I can't really go to my mom and say, "Well, how did you deal with this when Dad was doing this?" Because she's like, "Mental health? Like, I don't know. We just got through it, you know?" 

We're forging this new path. We're helping our service member. We're helping our children, if you, if you have children. We're helping ourselves. Like, it is a lot, and it is a path that takes a village, and it takes understanding. And I just have, ugh, so much grace for every military marriage. Like, marriage is hard, period. You put military on top of it, it gets harder. You put mental health on top of it, it gets even harder.

Like, we are literally fighting an impossible fight, but because of the military, because of every veteran that has touched my life, I am resilient. I am perser- like, I can persevere. I am disciplined. I am dedicated to the mission. And as a spouse, my mission is always gonna be my service member and my children, and being dedicated to that.

The only reason I have that dedication is because of my father and seeing him live his life as a Black service member to this country, and then as a Black veteran. Like, that's it. So it, it gives and takes from all of us, but I, crazy enough, would not change it for the world. 

LaFonda: Yeah. And even there are some active duty service members who don't have a spouse, and so what I'm hearing is that we can wrap our arms around them and be a support to them. Look for those places where there are resources. Katie has ga- given us some great resources, especially if you're in Jacksonville. 

Um, this has been an absolutely amazing conversation, Katie. I'm so thankful that you joined us today on the podcast, so thank you very, very much for coming on. 

Katie: Yeah, thank you for having me. I enjoyed this conversation. It's a much needed one. It's been very great. 

Torrie: Thank you, Katie.