Lessons from 1964 Freedom Summer (with Judy Richardson)

We were so lucky this week to talk to Judy Richardson, who fought for civil rights alongside John Lewis during the original 1964 Freedom Summer. 

She hasn't stopped fighting in the years since and we were honored to hear her inspiring (and, at times, harrowing) stories of being shot at by white supremacists, years of on-the-ground organizing, and hunger strikes in jail. It was all worth it, Judy says, to pursue voting rights for Black people in the South.

When we asked her what kept her going through the hard times (and what keeps her going today), she had a few answers that we could really relate to. First, she said it's her anger at the injustice. Second, it's music -- protest music, gospel music, and even salsa. Third, and most importantly, it's the people. Once she saw the courage and dedication of her fellow workers at the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, she felt she didn't have a choice but to continue the work. 

What we're seeing with voting rights this year is unfortunately way too similar to what Judy was fighting back in the 1960s. But far from giving up, Judy energized us to carry on the work for the next generation.

Don't miss this episode! Judy is a national treasure.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Sh!t Episode 36: “Lessons from 1964 Freedom Summer (with Judy Richardson)”

Katie: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I'm Katie Paris, founder of Red Wine & Blue. 

LaFonda: And I'm LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the Chief People Officer here at Red Wine & Blue. 

Katie: Okay. So if we're gonna talk about losing our shit, honestly, for me it has a lot to do with the fact that not enough people are talking about the insane attacks on civil rights right now. We have had the Voting Rights Act completely decimated- 

LaFonda: Yeah ... 

Katie: -by the US Supreme Court in just these last few weeks, and it just feels like people are going on about their business. We had thousands of people marching in Montgomery last weekend, and the media barely covered it, LaFonda. So I'm very glad that here at Red Wine & Blue we got hundreds of women together, and we have been amplifying what has been going on in terms of the court decision, how people on the ground are responding to this.

We are absolutely gonna fight back, and even when we're frustrated with the media, like, all the more important to channel our frustration, our anger, our... What did our guest today call it? Her pissed offed-ness or something? 

LaFonda: Pissed-ness. 

Katie: Yeah, her pissed-ness. We've gotta channel it. She said, "Do not, do not succumb. Have the fear. Have the anger. But do not succumb because we cannot let them win." And you guys, if you are hearing LaFonda and me, like, talking a little fast right now, it is because we are energized. 

LaFonda: Yes. I'm losing my shit in the best way because of who we got to talk to today, so. I'm losing my shit in a different kind of way today.

Katie: I know, I know. I'm like, I, I'm just a little amped up here. And I haven't had coffee in, like, five hours, so. Yes. It's really just, it's, we're high, we're high on Judy Richardson here. So our guest today was Judy Richardson, a woman who fought for civil rights alongside John Lewis as part of SNCC, which of course is the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and she's still fighting to this day.

We found Judy because she started joining Red Wine & Blue virtual events and just dropping these, like, incredible pearls of wisdom in the chat. And people on our team were like, "Who is this?" And then somebody Googled her and was like, "What?" And so we are just so thrilled that we got to have this conversation and share it with you all on the podcast. Like, she's so awesome, and I think she thinks we're awesome. Like- 

LaFonda: Yes. The fact that she was like, "I'm here 'cause I love y'all, and I found out about y'all." I am just so impressed with all the wisdom and all the work that she's done, and I felt like I was at, like, kindergarten circle time. I felt like I could just sit at her feet and listen to all of the stories- details for hours. For hours. 

Katie: And I'm excited, you know, I think that y'all, if you're listening, just get ready to hear so many echoes of what we talk about here so much, about, like, the power of trust, and building relationships, and our networks, and how we learn from each other, and we build on each other, and how important it is to just never feel alone, you know?

LaFonda: And courage, and community, and just all of that. Yes. 

Katie: Oh, the courage. Yes. The courage. And, and, and how, you know, doing this work can be so energizing, actually. Absolutely. For me, I appreciate it, too. You know, so often people are like, "Ugh," you know, "I've gotta get involved in this, you know, civic or political thing," and, "Ugh, but then I'm gonna go need to take a bubble bath afterwards 'cause it feels so horrible." Listen to Judy Richardson. Hear how energizing this, this can be and the lifelong friendships that she has from this work as she continues in it. So with that, we give you Ms. Judy Richardson. 

Hi, Judy. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Judy: Hi. Thank you! 

LaFonda: I am super, super, super excited to have you here, and a little bit giddy, honestly.

Judy: Oh, let me tell you, no, no, I'm the giddy one. I have so admired what you all are doing. And so every once in a while, I'll pop on one of your sessions, and it's like, “oh my God, I've learned so much.” So this is a wonderful thing for me. 

Katie: Well, we are so excited to get to learn a little bit from you today and connect. And isn't it always women talking to women- 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm ... 

Katie: -helping each other out? At the end of the day, that's how we always change the world. 

Judy: You got it. 

Katie: Okay. We've gotta start with the fact that, Judy, you fought alongside John Lewis for voting rights back during the original Freedom Summer of 1964. John Lewis is the reason that I work in politics. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, originally. My parents worked alongside him and his wife, Lillian, because my, um, brother went to preschool with Miles. You know, grew up hearing those stories. I felt like, you know, 'cause I was from Atlanta, I had this, you know, special connection and was always wanting to hear everything John Lewis said and did.

But it was in college where he actually came to speak at my college, and he talked about his personal calling to becoming politically engaged, and it resonated with me so deeply that I just, I was like, "I, I don't know what I'm gonna do exactly, but he's, he's on the right path." That was the path.

Judy, can you talk about what it felt like? 'Cause I think sometimes people can hear these stories and think, "I could have never done that." Like, what did it feel like, and how did you just keep going? 

Judy: Yes. Well, first of all, my friend Dottie Zaunder always says, "We were not special. We were not exceptional," and that is true. None of the people I know, except for some, you know, I think that there was a brilliance about certain people, but for most of us, it was just, there's nothing else you can do but this. You know? 

I mean, it's like what you saw in Minnesota, you know? That's... They amaze me, for example. It's that feeling that, “oh, wait a minute, this isn't right.” You know, when they said, "These are our neighbors. These are my kids' fellow students. You don't get to do this," right? That sense of outrage. And then once you're in it, it's like, "Oh, this is the only place I can be at this point." Like, there's an energy that you get. 

It's like… we, we had just gone to jail, okay? And we had been in jail for five years. Oh, for five years! Oh my God. We had been in jail for five days. We'd been on a hunger strike. Okay? We come out and we come into this Black church, and first of all, I smell the fried chicken and the macaroni and cheese, and it's like I've been on the fast for five days. Oh my God. It's like, how soon can I get to this? But I come in and the whole choir, church choir, is singing, "Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me 'Round," right? ♪ Ain't gonna let nobody turn me 'round. ♪ Like I felt lifted up.

And the thing is, the songs energize you, but also the work energizes you. You know, when you would take somebody to register to vote who had never voted before, who never thought they, they, Black people, were supposed to register to vote, I mean, the kind of, of excuses that you got were similar to some, some, in some ways to what you get now. “Oh, it'll never change. Oh, there's nothing I can do about it. It's always been this way before,” you know, which is a total excuse. 

Katie: What did you say? How did you get them to do it? 

Judy: Then at that point you then say, "Okay, do you like the fact that the sheriff and white vigilantes can come through and shoot through your houses whether or not you're involved in the struggle or not, and nothing happens? Do you worry about the fact that your daughter, when she comes home from school, can get stopped by a gang of white kids and nothing is done about it?" 

Katie: You made it personal. Yep. 

Judy: It's personal. It's always personal. 

Katie: Yep. 

Judy: The feeling is a sense of energy, and it's the songs, but it's also the people that are around you, and they energize you. And for me, it was also seeing people, and I knew what they had gone through, and yet they're still there, right? It's like I can do no less because I know what they've been through, and they're still standing here. 

Katie: Yep. Your experience in being a part of what you were, I, and, and especially with how much, unfortunately, what's going on today is rhyming with what was going on, you know, back then with the Supreme Court decision on Calais and the racial gerrymandering that's been going on.

People are calling this year for another Freedom Summer, and I think we should be calling for that. Could you tell us more about what it was like fighting this battle back in the '60s and now seeing people having to fight this fight again? 

Judy: Absolutely, and I love talking about the movement because it energizes me, and I think, you know, passing on these stories is really important. So I'd like to actually start with the group that's in Mississippi when we get there, right? So when SNCC originally went into Mississippi, that's 1961, and it's three years before 1964 Freedom Summer, and we found a strong core of local Black leaders. 

Katie: Mm. 

Judy: Local leaders like those that you guys are building, uh, through Red Wine and Blue. And that core was an organization called the Regional Council of Negro Leadership. It was started in 1951 by returning Black World War II veterans, and they were working on gaining their voting rights and economic justice. Like, you know, can we please be treated fairly by the bank? You know, getting mortgages like the white folks do and crop loans. You know, they're trying to get the agriculture department to give them the loans in the way they give the white farmers. It's all that. 

1961, Bob Moses, a SNCC organizer, says he wants to organize in Mississippi, and he asked Miss Ella Baker, SNCC's political mentor and incredible civil rights strategist, right, whom he should contact. And Miss Baker immediately says, "Look, you need to talk to Amzie Moore." Bob told me, so, he's sitting one morning in the kitchen table in Amzie's house, and Amzie takes out a precinct map, lays it out, says, "Look, you young people can do sit-ins if you want to, but I know that our power as Black folks will be around the right to vote."

And the, the racists who had long controlled Mississippi understood what the vote meant. That's why they had so long prevented Black folks from voting, particularly in majority Black districts. So for, for decades, if Black folks tried to register to vote, they'd be shot at, they'd be killed. They'd be thrown off the plantations where they and their families worked. And then if they still tried to register to vote, they'd have to pass a test that was usually only given to Black folks, and that even Black college professors were, were told that they had failed. They'd have to answer questions like, you know, how many bubbles in a bar of soap? Or they'd have to fill out a 22-question questionnaire or interpret one of the almost 300 clauses of the Mississippi State Constitution to the satisfaction of the racist white registrar, and some of these white registrars couldn't read and write themselves, right?

But still, Black folks overcame what was an understandable fear to register because they understood the importance of the vote. I mean, we understand why would white folks construct such a complex system and reign of terror and kill folks over something that didn't matter, right? 

Katie: Mm-hmm. 

Judy: So, so that's why Mississippi Freedom Summer was so strategically important. It brought the eyes of the nation to the violent racism that had been going on in Mississippi way, way back since Reconstruction was destroyed, right, in 1877, right? 

So young white students, this is now, so now we're into Mississippi Freedom Summer 1964. And young white students, some of whom had important parents with political power, and we are now recruiting them to work on voter registration and freedom schools and community health centers in Mississippi. Because then their lives are now also on the line. And maybe now we're thinking white America will finally care about democracy being built in Mississippi in 1960s, in the 1960s. 

I remember being in the Freedom Summer orientation session, and at that point we knew that three particular civil rights workers were missing, but we in the movement knew that they were dead. We really assumed that. They had not called in on their walkie-talkies. We assumed they did, were dead. So I remember I get there, I remember Bob Moses, who by 1964 is now SNCC Mississippi Project director, right? He walks onto the stage of the auditorium and he went to the blackboard and there's total silence. And then he wrote, "The three are still dead." Now this is something he would write for the next three days. “The three are still dead.” 

He then turns around and he tells the group of primarily white college students that the three are probably dead and that no one would think badly of them if they decided to leave, right? None of them left. None of them left. And all of us who were in that session remember none of them left. And of course, the bodies of those three workers, Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman, were found six weeks later buried in an earthen dam. And the, you know, the deputy sheriff and other white supremacists were found guilty on federal charges years later. Years later. 

There's a story I, I would love to tell, but I don't know whether-- Can I tell a story?  

Katie: Of course you can tell a story. 

LaFonda: Whatever you want!

Judy: Oh, okay. Okay. So what I remember is this is, it's now July, and one day June Johnson comes in. Now she's 15 years old from a strong movement family. Um, she herself is an amazing SNCC work-- uh, SNCC worker.

She comes running into the SNCC office in Greenwood, and she says that we had to go right immediately to the segregated hospital there in Greenwood, the county hospital. She says that Silas McGee, a Black teenager, and his brother had sat downstairs at the only movie house in Greenwood, and he's testing the 1964 Civil Rights Act, right?

Now, the movement had said no demonstrations. We are focusing on voter registration. We don't want to have to just, you know, expend any money to get people out of jail for testing segregated facilities. But these are people younger than I am. I mean, I'm 19 years old at that point, right? But these are young folks who want to finally sit downstairs at the movie theater, right? Instead of upstairs where they can't see anything. 

Okay, so when he finishes, he gets out of the theater, gets into his car, and some white racist throws a rock through the window and glass gets all in his eyes. So they had taken him-- the movement folks had taken him to the hospital. So now June is coming in. I have the keys to the SNCC car, and she says, um, "We got to go. We got to see about Silas." 

And so I drive with June, and while we're driving, you know, s- a, um, a couple, a white couple pulls up next to us, gives us dirty looks, pulls back, and then I hear this boom, you know, this something. And June says, "Hurry up, Judy. We got to go because they're shooting at us." And I said, "Oh, no, no, no, June." And I'm still, you know, driving the 25 miles that people tell you to drive so they won't pick you up. "Oh, no, no, June," I say, "That's just a, a backfire from a car." Now, I'm coming from Tarrytown, New York. Do I know? This is June Johnson, who is part of the strong local movement family, and is telling me, "Hurry up, they're shooting at us."

But I continued, you know, I continued driving. Okay, so we get there. Uh, we see a mob of about 10 or 12 white folks with baseball bats. I park, and as they start to run toward us, we quickly run inside to this small reception area. And after we enter, I see six FBI men just standing around. The FBI agents were just, were so angry that we had called because most of them were former sheriffs who were now, um, promoted up to being FBI agents. All white, mostly Southern. That's what the FBI was at that point, right? 

So at some point, someone throws a rock through this big reception window. We all run, including the FBI guys, behind this wall in the reception room, and I'm looking at these six FBI guys. They're all cowering behind the wall, and they stay there while I finally peek out, you know, around, see if the mob is still there, and then finally I go back to the hall phone. I put my little dime in, and I start again calling to try and find the Justice Department. 

But what I really wanna focus on is June. June was a local teenager who just the year before had been badly beaten with Ms. Fannie Lou Hamer and other Civil Rights workers. Now, here she is after that really brutal beating, and she is going directly toward danger again to see about her friend Silas. And it's not that she didn't understand what could happen, I mean, she knew all too well, right? 

But it's that she never let her fear or her anger, 'cause we were all angry, never let that stop her, never let that make her dysfunctional. She never let the white supremacists win by succumbing to any fear. Though, though clearly she had to have it, because you can't succumb because then once you give in and stop resisting, they've won, right? So that was a long answer to your short question. 

LaFonda: I, I just wanna ask like, so you've lived through all that and these are the stories, like some version of these stories that, you know, as a Black child in America, I grew up hearing some version of all the time, and you've lived through all of these things.

So right now, when people say, "This is the worst that it's ever been," what do you say to people when they say that today, right now, is the worst that it's ever been? 

Judy: Well, I gotta say, um, it is different. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Judy: I mean, what has happened is that the old Confederacy is now in charge of all three branches of government, right? So they've got the Congress, they've got the Supreme Court, and they've got the judicial system. I will say we were working in- at a better time in some ways during the '60s, you did not have a cult that you've got around, um, around Trump now. You had some Republicans who would... You know, you had the Rockefeller Republicans, you had people who would dissent. What we were bringing down, for example, in terms of those white students in 1964, some of them had Congress people who were in charge of key committees. You know? 

You don't have that now, not in, in this environment. So I will say that if you just say we've seen this movie before, you will not pre- be prepared for what you have to do. Because you cannot assume that any of the constitutional protections that at least we could talk about, they might not protect us fully, but at least you could refer to them. Those no longer exist in this present administration. And the only way that you will get them, um, you know, to, to exist again is number one, getting these idiots out. But also, you know, getting a different Supreme Court. You know, all the stuff we know about Roberts, um, is that he has been trying to do this since, you know, he was clerking earlier on in the, in the '80s, you know?

So it is different. It is different. But I will say what's wonderful about it is that we now also have all of the experiences that we, we went through. You know, the Regional Council of Negro Leadership and all the SNCC and all the young workers who staffed that, that, um, uh, that movement then. We know the techniques. We know what works now. 

Katie: What inspired you, Judy, to get involved at such a young age? You just told us you were 19 going through a lot of this stuff. So when did you get involved, and yeah, how did that happen as a young teenager? 

Judy: Well, I was, as I, as I just said, I was 19 when I, when I joined SNCC staff and I, and I grew up in Tarrytown, New York. It's just 30 miles north of New York City. Uh, my father worked at the Chevrolet auto plant, and he helped organize the union local, just to know that I had a little grounding there. Um, and when I'm seven years old, he's treasurer of that local when he dies of a heart attack on the line, and my mother, who can play a mean, mean jazz piano, uh, she becomes a single parent and sole support for me and my sister, and she gets both of us to college, me to Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania on a full four-year scholarship.

Now, it's at Swarthmore that I go to my first movement meeting, but I don't know that it's a movement meeting. And I should really emphasize it's not because of any commitment on my part, right? It's just because I am 19 years old. This is my first year in college, and I'm away from home for the first time, and my mother is not there to stop me. That's the main reason why. 

So I get there, and on one of my first demonstrations, we're trying to, to get into this, um, to integrate, we're trying to get into the Choptank Inn, uh, on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Cambridge, right? It's a bar and grill. And I'm near the front of the line, and I see this big burly white guy who says I cannot come in his restaurant 'cause I'm Black. Now, I'm looking in, and all I see is a place that is dark. It's dirty. It smells of stale... I would say rotgut liquor, but people might know what that means, so it smells of stale liquor. And he's telling me I can't come in, and it just enrages me. And by the way, let me just say, it was not all, you know, oh, kumbaya, you know, we will change the heart of these people. No, I was pissed a lot of the time, and I ran on pissedness, right? 

And so, um, it, but what's wonderful is that being in this situation, right, helps me put a name to the racism, both institutional and personal, that I'd experienced growing up in Tarrytown. You know, like the fact that it was really clear that the housing was segregated. No Black folks were allowed to live on the other side of Broadway, no matter how much they had. There were certain jobs, construction jobs, all white, right? There were lots of things, but I had no name for it. Now I have a name for it. 

So anyway, when I, when I come into this, I see all these folks and they're moving in this, in this kind of organized chaos, and most of them are my age, and I think I've died and gone to heaven. And that I'll, I'll be in this movement, you know, for the rest of my life, whi- which is kind of what has been happening, you know, which is kind of true. I've been in it the rest of my life. Yeah. 

Katie: You talked a lot about building a multiracial coalition, about how you recruited the white students into this too, and something I've been thinking about with the Freedom Summer we might just need in 2026, and how we build that energy now is, you know, I, I wonder if people today are looking at the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act and the work of the civil rights movement and thinking about, "Well, that impacts Black and brown people."

I wonder what lessons I would love to take from you about how we get the white people involved in seeing this as all of our fights. Do you have any, any advice for us as we try to build that multiracial movement today? 

Judy: Yeah, I mean, for one thing, they have to understand how the policies that are being done affect them.

Katie: Mm-hmm. 

Judy: So the fact that this cabal, um, around Trump, their policies are affecting them wherever they live. So the cutoff of food stamps, the fact that they are cutting back on nursing home regulations where your mother is gonna be, you know? 

Katie: Yeah. 

Judy: The fact that they are cutting off, um, clean environments, so the coal-fired plants, um, those are gonna affect you. There is now a lot more black lung in Kentucky and Tennessee because of the pullback of regulations. It affects you. See, one of the things, on my sign as a matter of fact, that I use for, um, the three, the, the No Kings demonstrations, it's a James Baldwin quote, and it says, "If they come for you in the morning, they will come for us that night."

Katie: That's right. 

Judy: That is really clear, and so for me as a Black person, when I see ICE raiding, you know, fathers and mothers and putting five-year-olds in jail and separating families, I'm thinking about the paddy rollers, the slave patrollers who s- who were, you know, uh, going back and forth on those roads to make sure nobody escaped, right?

There are so many similarities, but the main thing is for Black, for Black folk or white, or white folk not to say, "Oh, they will not come for me." All of the things that they are doing is a beginning. They do this, then they say, "Oh, nobody said anything about that. I can do this then. Oh, now I can do this."

One of the things they've done, for example, is, um, is to say, you know, there's a list of people who are terrorists, and they can name anybody on this terrorism list that they want to. For example, you can be a teacher. Now what's to prevent them from saying, "Well, you are now a terrorist because you're talking about the things that we say you cannot talk about. You're supposed to be against diversity. You're supposed to be against inclusion. You're supposed to be against equity." Now what kind of world do you want that to be in? 

Katie: That's right. And that, and that is all meant to create a lot of fear. And I think that right now that can feel very, you know, destabilizing, and we throw up our hands and we go, "Okay, well what's the point?"

But you talked about how you felt fear, too. You felt fear because of course you did. You had friends who were being killed. How did you not succumb to that fear? And what di- what guidance do you have maybe for people who are listening now and feeling scared? I love that you said it's not about being fearless, it's about being scared and doing it anyway. How do you do it anyway? 

Judy: Well, part of it is, um, I never felt like I was alone, except once in jail. Um, and even then somebody started singing a freedom song, and that helped me. But, um- 

Katie: We gotta sing more, LaFonda. 

LaFonda: We gotta sing more.

Judy: But it's also, it's like I really am seeing... Well, I'll, I'll talk more personally.

It's the anger that really, really fueled me. It's not, you know, first of all, you, you stayed away from anybody who was not afraid. Right. Anybody who acted recklessly, 'cause those people would get you killed. You don't want those folks. Right. So you want people who understand that this is a, this is a scary situation, but these people cannot win.

I mean, that's the problem. You do not allow these folks to win. Because you're trying to build a world that is different from the world that the Trump people and the Stephen Millers and the Thomases are building. I mean, I remember when we interviewed, for Eyes on the Prize, I interviewed E.D. Nixon, who was an NAA leader and, and a leader of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, right, back in 50- '55.

And he said, "For most of the time, I was fighting for the children who came behind me, so they wouldn't have to suffer the same things I did." And then he said, "But then I thought about it and I, I thought, you know, I really wanna enjoy some of this stuff myself." But the main thing is that's one of the things you heard over and over again and what fueled a lot of us.

It's like you heard from the adults who had been struggling at a time when lynchings of Black folks was normal and unchallenged, when voting rights leaders were getting beaten and assassinated, when white folks could just kill you randomly just to show they had the authority to do it. And I'm looking at these same Black folks, and they're still there.

Like, now, it's not like they don't understand the danger. It's not like they're not afraid for themselves, their families, their whole communities. But they understand they are trying to build a world, and the problem is if you don't do that, then nobody has anything to build on after you leave. 

It's like in, in, in Minneapolis, for example, the reason they had some of those mechanisms with the whistles, with the cell phones, whatever, is from the George Floyd demonstrations. They are building on what has already happened. If those folks had not done those demonstrations, they would've had nothing to build on. It's like me going to Mississippi. We're building on the Regional Council of Rural Leadership folks. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Judy: If you don't do that, then nobody has anything to do. It's like a ladder. There's nobody, nothing to step on as you move forward. 

And the bottom line is what kind of world do we want the folks who-- You know, our kids, our grandkids, our, you know, our little nieces and nephews, what kind of world do we want them to live in? And it should not be a world- The kind of world that the Trump people are creating. That's not the world, right? We need to have a different kind of world that we're working for, and that's what we're doing. But if we do nothing, then nothing changes. 

And we always have to remember that it is folks just like us who made and sustain the movement. You know, it's our cousins, our mothers, our clergy, our teachers, whatever. And if we don't remember that we were the ones who did that, we won't know that we can do it again. And then at that point, the other side wins, and they cannot be allowed to win because they really don't care about anything except themselves. 

LaFonda: Absolutely. That, that just inspired me so much and makes me want to think about how we can keep going every single day. Like, this idea of putting one foot in front of the other every single day to keep this going, that just helps me a lot. 

Judy: The other thing that keeps me going is music. I mean, as, as I said, you know, but it's not just freedom songs. It's old and new freedom songs, but it's also salsa. I mean, if I hear Tito Puente… I once was about to get into bed, and Tito Puente came on, or Joe Cuba, one of them. Honey, I had to get up and salsa. I had to. It was 1:00 in the morning, right? Um, anything by Earth, Wind & Fire. 

LaFonda: Yes. 

Judy: Can I talk about September Song? Stevie Wonder. Anything... And, and you figure out what is it that energizes you. Now, does not mean that you're not flat out, does not mean that sometimes I get-- I wake up and I think, "Oh, Lord, what is..." You know, you wanna put the covers over you. But then, um, it's like, "Oh, no, no, I got to get up," or something's playing on the music, then you get up and you do, you know. It- you figure out what's gonna energize you. 

But also what's gonna ground you, what's gonna center you, what is it when you become so enraged. I mean, at, at a certain point it is dysfunctional to do as I do sometimes, which is to see the images of the, this, the Trump cabal, and I'm screaming at the TV, "What the heck? Impeach him!" And I'm worried that somebody's gonna pass by my door. I live in a, in a, a building, right, in a condo building, and, um, that somebody's gonna come by my door and think, "Oh, Lord, she's gone crazy," right? "Let us break down the door." 

It is because I cannot contain myself. Right. Now, you cannot keep doing that because it's, it doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. I'm sitting there screaming on my sofa, so what's gonna change, right? See, I also find that I feel less, how do you say? I feel less down when I'm doing something, you know? 

Katie: Yes! 

Judy: That's the thing. You just feel, you get energized. You get it. And the other thing is, I always make sure that I have people around me- Yeah ... who also think they can change things. Like, you do not want to have your best friend being somebody who says, "Oh, it'll never change."

LaFonda: It's never gonna change. Yeah. 

Judy: Just stay away from those people. Okay. 

The main thing, so I, I am, I have worked now, um, like our SNCC Legacy Project. Okay. I have been working with these people for over 60 years, right? And so we got the SNCC Legacy Project, and we're doing work with young organizers. We have a, a, a nine-day course around teaching SNCC and the movement and the history, and all this is free, right? But it's because I'm working with people I know and trust. I've been knowing them for 60 years, and none of them, assuming they haven't passed on, and, you know, they're still functional, they are still going on these demos. They're still speaking to people. They're still, still working with these young people. I am energized by these folks who really do assume you're supposed to be in it for the rest of your life. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. What do you see in young organizers or people that are organizing today that's giving you hope? Like, people that are building on the movement today, what, what's giving you hope about organizers right now? 

Judy: I think that they have that kind of intelligence and, um, sense of history. And again, it's not immediately trans- I mean, it's not all transferable because the world has changed, right? And so when we talk to young people, it's not only that they're learning from us, it's also that we're learning from them. What are the things you had to do differently than we did because of the internet, because of AI? 

One of the things that we stress, though, is that even with that, you cannot assume because you have 5,000 people come up on a demonstration, then you've got a movement. You have got to organize for long, long-lasting sustained organizing. You have to have an organization that when you get somebody elected, for example, you don't just walk away and think, "Oh, they're gonna do the right thing," because they won't necessarily. They're gonna go with wherever the pressure is being put, and you have to maintain that pressure through whatever that long-term sustained organization is. We'll keep the pressure on whatever politician you, you put up there 'cause they will go with the, the, you know, path of least resistance. 

So I, I think one of the things that the young organizers are, are hearing and knowing is that it's not just about demos, demonstrations, that it is about that long-term grassroots organizing. You know, people talk about the local movement folks as if they're the, just the, the, uh, foot soldiers. They call them the foot soldiers, right? No. These were local leaders. Don't talk about Mrs. Boynton as if she-- in, in Selma, as if she's just a foot soldier. She is a leader in Selma before SNCC or Dr. King's SCLC or any of them get there. They've been plowing the ground with the Voters League since the 1940s in Selma, right? 

So all of these people, we think about them because you understand the threads. You understand that you are continuing the struggle. And I, I do wanna make sure that I, I just mention, um, Ms. Baker. She says she, um-- Ms. Baker talks about how, um, she says some, somewhere down the line, the numbers increase, the tribe increases. She says, "So how do you keep on?" She says, "I can't help it. I don't claim to have any corner on an answer, but I believe that the struggle is eternal. Somebody else carries on.” 

And that's what she showed us. When we go into a community, Ms. Baker says to SNCC organizers, "You are not the leaders. You are there to build strong local leadership that will pr- that will sustain even your deaths," right? And, and that, that was Ms. Baker. 

Katie: Yeah. Well, Judy, you're a national treasure. You... 

Judy: (Dismissive laughter)

Katie: Sorry, you are! It is true. I love how you have told us that we have to build on each other, and you are walking that talk, even as you're meeting with these young organizers, you know, hearing how they're learning from you. They're building on what you all did, but you're, you're continuing the fight and building on what they're doing, too, and it's beautiful. We, we, we too need to, need to do that in our own work, and you are such an–

Judy: Oh, but you are! See, that's the thing. I think what you guys are doing is incredible. You understand the importance of local grassroots organizing.

Katie: That's right. It's all about trust and local networks. I heard you say it, and that's the thing that hasn't changed, right? From then to today, it's about trust, relationships, our networks, building on each other, seeing the long-term. Never... It's not just about any single election.

I just, I am ready to go. I am ready to go! It is Friday afternoon and we're recording this, but I'm ready to go knock some doors right now. 

Judy: Yes, but also, uh, your opening song! I mean, that's the kind of spirit that we had in the movement, you know? It's, you need all of that to fuel you, 'cause they don't get to win. That's the bottom line. They do not get to win. 

Katie: They don't get to win. All right. Thank you, Ms. Judy Richardson. We are grateful for you. 

LaFonda: Thank you so much. 

Judy: Oh, I have so enjoyed talking to you guys. Thank you so much.