A View of America from Italy (with Zerlina Maxwell)

Last year, political journalist Zerlina Maxwell did something that most of us only dream about: she moved to Sicily.

She’s been speaking truth to power for years as a radio and TV host but after losing her mom and seeing Trump elected for a second time, she knew she had to make a change. And now that she’s living full-time in Italy, she’s seeing America more clearly than ever.

She’s still hosting her radio show Mornings with Zerlina and contributing to the hard work of defending American democracy, but it all feels very different now. She’s able to slow down, be more intentional, appreciate time with friends, and escape the hamster wheel of busyness and to-do lists.

She’s not the first Black American to seek refuge overseas; James Baldwin, for example, wrote much of his groundbreaking work while abroad in Turkey. Outside of the “haze of racism and hostility and oppression,” as Zerlina put it, she can find the clarity to really examine this moment in American history.

Even if you can’t move to Italy (and don’t be so sure you can’t!), you can learn from Zerlina’s journey. Every day, you can do one soft thing and one civic thing. Have a dance party in your kitchen, or meditate, or grab a coffee or ice cream with a friend… and text your neighbors about an upcoming election, or attend a city hall meeting, or donate to an organization you believe in.

We can’t heal a broken country without healing ourselves — and that can happen from anywhere.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Sh!t Episode 39: A View Of America From Italy (with Zerlina Maxwell)

LaFonda: Hi, everyone, welcome to How to Not Lose Your Sh!t. I'm LaFonda Cousin, part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue. 

Amy: And I'm Amy Thorstenson, the producer of this podcast. 

LaFonda: Yay, we have Amy here. I'm so excited. All right, so this week we are joined by Zerlina Maxwell. She's been a political radio and TV host for years, and she still hosts a daily news show called Mornings with Zerlina. But last year she fully burned out and decided to move to Italy, and I loved this conversation with her. Amy, what did you think? 

Amy: Ah, I loved it, too. I was so looking forward to this. Um, little peek behind the curtain here, last week, we were scheduled with Zerlina and it ended up not working out at the last minute, which is why we reran an old episode last week. Today, Katie was stuck in an airport after doing her TED Talk. More about that later, also very exciting. 

And so I was just like, as long as LaFonda and Zerlina get a chance to talk, that's all I want. Like, I've literally been looking forward to this for weeks because I knew that the two of you would have such a great conversation, and you absolutely did.

LaFonda: Oh my God, it was so good. It was so good. I've been thinking about you know I like to travel. I've been thinking about this idea of living abroad for a really long time, and she just, like, validated a lot of things. The idea of having this balance and peace and living this slower, more grounded life, you feel that when you're traveling.

The idea of having that kind of permanently just, like, speaks to me, and there's a little bit of call to action in this in this episode, too. So I'm really excited to let people hear our conversation with Zerlina, so let's go ahead and bring her on. 

Hi, Zerlina!

Zerlina: Hi! 

LaFonda: Thank you for joining us. I'm super, super, super, super excited to talk to you. Last year, you did something that I'm very jealous about. You moved to Italy. 

Zerlina: Yes. 

LaFonda: Why was that decision important for you and your mental and physical health? 

Zerlina: I think it's something that both the universe sent me plenty of signs that it was, you know, my destiny. 

My first trip to Rome, I was flying home from Rome in 2023, and the plane, I swear to God, literally turned around. It flew for four hours back to New York, and then something was happening at JFK Airport. Thankfully it wasn't anything too bad, but it was... It meant the international terminal was closed that day. And so we flew four hours, and then they made an announcement that we were going back to Rome. And, you know, you're stressed out. You're like, "What do I... What's going on?" But then I also, in retrospect, think about that as almost like me being rerouted and my life kind of being di- diverted back to Italy. 

But for me, it was living in Washington, DC, being in the thick of it, being in the news cycle at the time during the Trump and then the Biden administrations, and then also my mom being really, really sick throughout all of that. So I kept up my same work schedule. From the outside, no one really ever knew unless I told them what was going on, and I think that weighed on me in so many different ways – emotionally, physically. And then add on top of that the fact that I was in the midst of covering really ugly moments in American history, including the January 6th insurrection.

And, you know, after many, many calls with my therapist like biweekly, she was like, "Okay, we're not gonna complain about Washington, DC, and, and being unhappy. You need to change something. You need to change your environment, and you work remotely." And so we've talked a lot about, obviously, your traveling and the places where you feel alive and happy, and Rome was one of those places for me.

And so she said, "You need to work remotely for at least one month in Italy." And so I decided to do that at the beginning of 2024, which is kind of an unusual decision in the midst of an election cycle. But for me, it was really just to be able to continue to do my job to the best of my ability without falling completely apart.

And I noticed immediately that physically I felt different, emotionally felt more grounded, more present. Um, that's part of Italian culture also, is just really cherishing every single moment and living in the present moment, actually looking at people when you're having a conversation instead of your phone. So, so many of those aspects of the culture allowed me to, I think, have a different relationship with work and, and strike a balance that feels sustainable and healthy. 

Living here is about trying to find those moments where it's quiet enough for me to hear my own thoughts, for me to kind of process those thoughts, not try to fix them, but just to actually sit with them, and I actually have a place here near the water where I go. It's like a ritual of mine to sit and meditate and to let sometimes uncomfortable feelings come up, because I'm still very much... I think it's a lifelong process when you lose a parent just grieving and also realizing that, one, I feel like I'm living my mom's dreams in a lot of ways.

But then also, what do I want the next, you know, hopefully, knock on wood, half of my life to be? I'm in my 40s, so I think, you know, at this, this is an age also where a lot of folks do that assessment because you lived a lot of life, and so you can look back at the life that you've lived and say, "Is this what I wanna keep doing or, or do I wanna make a change?" 

And so for me, I think living here also, the distance and proximity to America allows me to look at America from a position of relative safety too. And, and I think that allows me to have a level of clarity that I didn't necessarily always have when I was in the thick of it, in the thick of cable news and the news cycle and reacting to everything. Whereas here, I'm always living in the future, I'm six hours ahead, and I have the ability to look at the United States and be surrounded by folks from all over Europe.

I mean, I have two friends I was just hanging out with this weekend that are from Hungary, and we were talking about how they voted out their dictator recently. Uh, and one of the things that we were talking about is just that everybody voted. It wasn't, it, it wasn't like, “should we vote?” Everyone voted. It was like 87% turnout. And so there are so many lessons we can take away from that as well. 

LaFonda: Let, let's talk about the connection to being overseas, what that means for your mental health and connection to US politics, because I can talk to you all day long 'cause I sh- I think about moving and being away from the US and what that could mean, and being a Black woman living overseas, and we could talk about that forever.

You moved to Sicily, but you didn't 100% check out of US politics, 'cause you still have a radio show and you're on Substack, and you shared that reading the news is hard for your mental health. It's hard for, you know, all of us. It... You can get sucked into it really easy, even from across the ocean. But do you have any strategies for taking in that news without getting overwhelmed?

I'm hearing, like, sitting by the ocean and sitting by yourself and all of the things that we talk about, but how do you do that, staying connected to what we have going on here without going crazy. 

Zerlina: It's a, it's a daily struggle. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Zerlina: It really, really is a daily struggle, but I think routine is part of how I accomplish that, and that means that I'm not picking up my phone and looking at the news when I wake up.There's at least one hour more, two, two if I'm, if I'm really on top of my stuff, where I'm not looking. I actually don't look until a certain time. Um, and I try to be up a few hours before I have to look. Um, try to work out, try to eat, try to drink water. You know, try, try to meditate. 

If you make the alarm sound a meditation, then you can lay in the bed. That's just, like, my pro tip for anyone out there trying to, trying to figure out how to start meditating. Either that or play it while you're in the shower or while you're doing dishes. I always-- I find that, like, incorporating it is better than adding it on as something separate when you're first getting into it.

But I think for me, it's scheduling the time I'm going to look at the news, and then I don't look when I'm not supposed to be looking. I mean, that's difficult with Instagram, but I try not to doom scroll. For me, it's finding that balance between when I'm intentionally checking the news and I don't do it when I'm not supposed to be, and then the ways in which I am trying to spark joy in my daily life.

I wrote recently on my Substack, The Inner Work Dispatch, about thinking of it as almost one soft thing and one civic thing, and then I... So I'm like, "What's the soft thing that I'm doing today?" Maybe it's going for a walk outside. Maybe it's doing 10 minutes of stretching or yoga. Maybe it's listening to fun songs and having a dance party, which is a really fun thing to do because I just think of it as exercise.

At this point, I put on my Apple Watch, and there's a dance, uh button for, or the dance workout on the Apple Watch. And so if you just put on your favorite songs and dance around, like, you don't have to, like, carve out separate time necessarily always for your working out and, you know, whatever your step count is.

And I think that that balance is really, really important. It's hard. It was harder for me to strike that balance when I was living in New York and in Washington, D.C., where people, I think, socially encourage you to work more and more and more and more, and it's almost like a competition to see who's more dedicated to, to their work.

And it's not like that where I am. And so for me here, for the past year plus, it's been finding that balance and being really, really intentional about when I'm consuming the news, and then thinking of it as, okay, I'm gonna do one soft thing. I'm gonna do one civic thing. And my civic thing and my- the way that I am engaging is I show up and do my job.

LaFonda: Yeah. I love the one soft and one civic thing. I think that's probably something that I will steal from you, if you don't mind. I'm gonna take it.  

Zerlina: No, I don't mind. I don't mind.

LaFonda: Um, one of the things that you said was getting into this, like, you felt more grounded and more present because cultures overseas are more… they're slower. They have a slower pace. They move with more, I think, more intention and less urgency for every single thing.

And that's one of the things that I've appreciated most about travel. One of the things that, like, initially drove me crazy when I was in Italy, when I was in Ghana, it was like you sit down, you order food, and then it could be like an hour and a half. And I'd be like, "What is taking so long? We have things to do." And then I would look around and people were, like, enjoying wine and having conversations, and people didn't feel so rushed to move to the next thing. And I, by the time those trips ended, it felt like, like, that's how you're supposed to live your life.

Did you feel a sense of guilt at all coming from, like, American culture and adjusting to Italian culture of just, like, slowing down, taking it in, being present? Did you feel any guilt in that space? 

Zerlina: I wouldn't say it was guilt, but I think that I felt kind of like a fish out of water in the beginning. I mean, even now I still have to say out loud to myself most days, “Walk slower. Why are you walking so quickly? Slow down, you're in Sicily.” I literally say that out loud to myself. Um, number one, because it's hot, and so you have to slow down because it's really, really hot. 

But then also because, you know, I'm not in a rush. We're on Sicilian time, which is a, a different kind of pace. Not to say that people aren't working hard. That's one of the, one of the things I think people misunderstand. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Zerlina: Um, you know that famous phrase, Italian phrase, dolce far niente, you know, the joy of doing nothing, the sweetness of doing nothing. They're not doing nothing, right? They're working, just like everybody else. They're working, they're taking care of their families. They're, you know, doing all the things that they have to do. But they take time, especially when they are with family, with community, with their friends, to be present. 

And so I think that for me it was an adjustment, right? I think even when I go into a store and I'm in line for something, you know, I think the instinct in the US was to scroll on my phone while I'm waiting, and I find that I don't do that as often because it's not that no one here is doing that, but fewer people are doing that. They will just stand there and wait.

And there's something, like, interesting about that difference. It's small and it feels really minor, and maybe not, like, that significant in the bigger picture. But I think for me, just being influenced by that, just, "Okay, I'm gonna stand here for, what, two minutes," right? And I'm going to not scroll and not distract myself from just being in this moment right now. You know, you might see a friend if you looked up from your phone at that moment. 

So I think that's a piece of it. It's, it's understanding that it's really important in Italian culture to be in community, to be with family, and to be present in the moment, and that's actually what life is about.

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Zerlina: It's not necessarily about accumulating stuff. It's not necessarily about some of the things that drive Americans every single day to strive to this, you know, mythical, I guess, destination called the American dream. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. Are there things that you've noticed about America or dots that you've connected because you have some physical distance? Are there things that you have seen more clearly maybe because you are away from the chaos? 

Zerlina: Well, one of the first things, and this might seem like a surprising answer, but one of the first things is the quality of the food. And so, for like... And, and how that actually says a lot about how a country feels about its own people, right? If you're feeding your population things that are going to make them sick, and then you don't provide healthcare for those people, you know, that's a, that's a v- vicious and ugly cycle. And it also doesn't say much about how you actually feel about the wellbeing of your population. 

That was, like, one of the first differences. You know, eating fruit and vegetables here is my jam because they're so good. Like, even earlier today, this is a true story, earlier today, I was grocery shopping, you know, adding things to my cart, and I was looking for Brussels sprouts, and I can't get them. You know why? It's not winter, and they do not have Brussels sprouts because they are not in season. And I was like, "Interesting." I was like, "I can't get my Brussels sprouts." But it's okay because, you know, there are other vegetables that are in season and, you know, I'm doing that. But I think, you know, that's, that's a, that's one, one sort of small thing that seems, seems small, but then when you really think about it, it's actually quite profound.

I also think that what drives Americans, always being busy, always being productive, never taking a break. You know, almost bragging that you are always available on your email. You're willing to email back to people at midnight, and you're such a great worker. Like- Being around people of other backgrounds here and, and also Sicilians and Italians here, but I also have a lot of expat friends from all around the world… it's not like that everywhere. And I think being outside of it helped me realize how unhealthy that is. 

And that we're… a lot of times, people are doing all of that for companies that don't care about them. So- Yeah ... I, I, I think for us as individuals, it's about trying to figure out how you can build a healthy relationship with your work. You know, even if you love it, you love your job, you love your work, you love your company, but you also have to live your life and find those moments when you're not working that spark joy, that, you know, aren't about making money or being excellent. 

You know, even if we're going to a dance class, we're, like, going to try to get good at it or, you know, we're not just going to Pilates, we're trying to get the certification.You know? Like, we're just all doing a little bit too much. We don't have to do so much. Um, and I think it's also a matter of figuring out what you should be doing, right? So do a little bit less of the stuff that doesn't matter, and then go back to the one soft thing, one civic thing, figuring out the things that actually do matter.

And the soft thing is not soft. The soft thing is a part of resisting all of the systems that are meant to make you give up and that are meant to burn you out. Because we're in a capitalist system that is meant to burn you out, and so you have to say, "Okay, I'm gonna put up some boundaries here, and I'm going to obviously do what I need to do to make a living and to, in my case, try to cover this moment in history with journalistic rigor and passion and dedication that this moment requires. But then also, I need to go have fun and live my life.” 

Because at the end I'm not gonna be like, “You know, I really got through so many things on my to-do list and I'm so proud of that." Like, at the end, it's not gonna be like, "Oh, I was so productive and checking off boxes on my to-do list." Like, it's gonna be, "That trip to Rome was amazing and I'm so glad I experienced that," or, "That time I was laughing with my friends was, was, like, an unforgettable experience." 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. Um, that spoke to me a little bit as someone who was, like, doing yoga for the love of yoga, and then was like, "I should get a yoga teacher certification." 

Zerlina: No, we all do that!. I, I- ... definitely, I have looked up Pilates instruction, yoga instruction. I'm always like, “Well, maybe if I make it, like, a course, that'll at least be better than just, like, going to learn how to breathe right.”

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Zerlina: You know? But I think, but I think for me, it's like, it's always about liking what I like and not caring what other people think about the things that I like and, and making sure I'm doing those things that actually make me feel good, not just, like, the things I think I should do. I used to think that, “oh, I gotta go to Pilates because everybody's going to Pilates,” and then I realized I didn't really like Pilates. And I was like, “okay, well, I don't have to do this.” Like, like, I actually don't like this very much. 

Um, you can do it sometimes. It's not that it's bad for you. It's good for you. But I think, you know, doing the things that I like and not doing the things that I don't like and not really caring what people say.

LaFonda: What other people think. Yeah. But discovering what you do and what you don't like, you have the space to discover what you do and what you don't like. How has having the space to discover what you do, what you don't like, having that space to create that balance for you, how has that helped energize that civic portion of your life? How has having the self-care made your political work more effective? 

Zerlina: I'm a thinker, so in order to really be able to look at what's going on and be like, "Okay, this is like the one or two things that I need to say on my show so people understand the importance of this particular news story or the context of the moment." And I think that when I was in the US, I was constantly, I felt like on a hamster wheel responding, reacting, and I wasn't-- I didn't have enough time to really be like, "Okay, let's look at the bigger picture here," and like put it in perspective. And here I am able to do that every single day because I am, one, the proximity that I have to the US, I'm looking at the US and what's happening, I'm looking at it from a distance, and that allows a level of clarity I don't think I've ever really had. I've always had a level of clarity, but the clarity I have now is quite different. 

And I'm surrounded by Europeans, and there is no debate here. There is no debate among the Europeans and the Italians that I talk to about Donald Trump. The debate is in the US. There is no debate here. They are all against Donald Trump. They all know that he's an authoritarian. They all kn- like, everything that, you know, some on the left say about Donald Trump, they all agree with that assessment. Um, they could not believe that we re-elected Donald Trump. They did not understand why people in the US would support Donald Trump. They understand the danger he poses to Europe.

So I think, you know, for me, distance provides physical safety, but also emotional and spiritual safety in a way that allows me to access parts of my, I don't know, brain? That I really couldn't in the United States. And I-- when I first was making the decision to move, I was reading a lot about other Black thinkers and writers and folks who spent significant portions of time in Europe. And one of the facts that I always think about is the fact that- James Baldwin wrote most of his, the works that we cite in Turkey. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Zerlina: Uh, and that is not a coincidence. There is something about not being in the energy of America that allows you to access part of your brain that you can't because you're always sort of in this haze of racism and hostility and oppression.

So I think for me, it's when I walk around having a lightness that I didn't have in the US, and that allows me to speak truth to power in this moment. But also not worry about, you know, harassment and, and my physical safety in the way that I probably would be feeling if I was in the United States as a journalist in 2026.

LaFonda: Yeah. I love hearing that you have what you feel like is this sense of safety, and hearing that there is not that debate over what is happening in America actually makes me feel… I don't know how that makes me feel, honestly, because I think about this a lot. I have this conversation with my sister. We travel a lot, but we actually have not traveled much since Donald has been in office, especially internationally. But it is because, like me personally, I just feel like I need to save my money in case the next trip has to be permanent, right? And I have done some research, looked, talked to friends about where are the safest places for Black women to be if there needs to be an exit.

And I don't love the idea of that, but the fact that that is how my brain has to work is heartbreaking, but also, that's where we are right now. And so the fact that you feel like you are in this place where you can have that weight lifted a little bit, but also there's not a debate about where we are, is actually really, really telling. And I'm wondering if that, like, influences your thoughts or feelings about moving back to the US at any point. 

Zerlina: People ask me that a lot. You know, "Do you miss it? Do you... You know, when are you gonna move back?" And number one, I do not miss it. There wasn't one day I woke up in the last year plus where I was like, "You know, I really miss America." I don't miss America. You know, maybe I miss authentic Mexican food. But other than that, I, I really don't. There's nothing about it that I miss. 

I think that there are differences and there are things that, you know, may be more efficient, the bureaucracy or something like that. Like, you know, things move sort of slow, but you get used to it, and you learn to work with the pace here. And there are things that, you know, I think Italians would, they would complain about their own government and the way their systems work just the way that we do. 

LaFonda: Right. 

Zerlina: But I also think about the fact that racism is, it's global, right? So, so it exists everywhere, and so there's not really anywhere a Black woman could go where, you know, everything is rain- ha- you know, rainbows all the time. However, the way it manifests for Black American women, I will speak for myself as a Black American woman, the way it manifests is different. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Zerlina: Because you, you know, obviously people can see that I am Black, but they clock that I'm American as well. And so I think my experience would be different than if I'm talking to my friends who are from, you know, Morocco or Algeria or Tunisia that also are populations that exist here in the city where I live because of our proximity to Africa. But I think- It's really, really important for Black women to be able to experience just... It's hard to describe, right? It's, it's energetic. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Zerlina: There, there is a, a, a weight that lifts when you are outside of the US. And certainly you are different, and you look different, and people are kinda, like, curious about you when you are traveling around. But I think for me, you know, that look is different than the looks that you get in America in many contexts when you're a Black woman. Whether it be in, in your office with colleagues, or just when you're out and about in public living your life. 

Just seeing such an erosion of everything our parents, and our grandparents, and our great-grandparents fought for in terms of rights, and access to the ballot box, and reproductive freedom, LGBTQ+ rights. And, you know, we're waiting on birthright citizenship. So many things are happening that are a denial of my person, my personhood. And so I think living abroad allows me to remember that I'm equal to, to everyone, and, and sort of we're all sharing this planet. 

The world is really big, right? And it's a lot bigger than if you just stay in the US. And, you know, obviously the majority of Americans don't have a passport, so, you know, if you have the privilege to travel and go abroad, I think it expands the mind. And then as a Black woman, in terms of your exposure to just a world that isn't always as hostile to you as it is in the United States, that's something that I, I want every Black woman to be able to experience.

But to your point about- You know, saving your coins and preparing for the inevitability that you may have to make a change. I mean, no- nothing that I, that I do in my life is necessarily the thing that I'm gonna do forever, that's permanent forever. But I really do not think that there is gonna come a time where I'm gonna wanna move back to the United States. Like, I, I, I really don't think that that is... There's nowhere I wanna live, other than maybe New York. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Zerlina: But I'm only going to live there unless I have, like, multiple millions of dollars because, you know, it's so expensive to live in New York. I lived there 15 years. I, I love New York. It's one- my favorite city in the world. But I think for me, it's a piece of why I live where I live is it's affordable for me as someone working remotely for an American company, and so I can build a life here and feel financially secure in a way I've never felt before. 

So going back to the US is not in the cards. Um, but I think every- everyone should get to a place where they can, can explore, be curious about other cultures and the way, you know, other people are living their lives. And, and I think there's a freedom that you feel that you really just have to do it so that you can feel that and then you know what it feels like. 

LaFonda: Yeah. I, that's why travel has always been so important to me. It's like the idea of getting to see and hear and talk to people, that, that natural curiosity for how other people live their lives and interacting with other people.

So for the people that you, you know, you just said, like so many Americans don't have a passport to even travel. Many of our listeners can't move to Italy, but we can still rest and set boundaries, and that's what this podcast is about. So what tips do you have that we can incorporate into our daily lives? Or even if we're not leaving right now, what can we do right now to balance protecting democracy with protecting our peace? 

Zerlina: So before I answer that, I wanna go back to the some people can't do it. I think a lot of people assume they can't do it, and they haven't figured out the math. 

And there's something… I don't know if it's because it just seems like moving abroad is for the privileged, quote-unquote. Um, but I would... when people say, "Oh, I can't, I can't m- move abroad," I always say, "Are you sure? Are you sure? Like, are you sure?" Because there are a lot of different ways that you… maybe you didn't even look it up and see if there was, you know, ways that you might be able to, right?

And, and then the affordability piece because, you know, if, if rent is, you know, $3,000 in a, in New York and it's a lot less here. My groceries are 20%, literally, of what my groceries were in America. Like it, you know, I think when you do the math, it might be a different answer, but that's for everybody's, obviously in, in a different situation. But when people say, "I can't do it," I'm like, "Are you sure?" So just make sure that that's the answer if, if that's what your situation is. 

But I think in terms of trying to stay engaged, for me, it's about being really intentional. So I'm really intentional about when I am engaging, and when I am not working, I am not working. So for, for folks out there listening, you know, you're, maybe you're signing up to do some phone banking once a week. But then I also want you to add onto your calendar that dance party in the living room or the coffee with a friend or the walk with maybe some ice cream. Gelato in my case. But like, you know, make sure that the breaks and the joy are scheduled just like the meetings and the obligations. 

And also add that one civic thing along with your one soft thing. So you're being consistent with your participation in saving American democracy, because it won't be saved without the engagement of, well, according to the data, 3.5% of the population. But you know, that's a small number, but it should include you. 

And you know, we're not gonna passively save democracy. I think when I first got into political work, it was organizing for the Obama campaign in 2008, and the reason why I did that is because I did not want a Republican to win and not be able to complain.

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Zerlina: And so for me it was, "I'm gonna go do everything I can do to ensure that" ... at that time it was John McCain and Sarah Palin, like, “I'm gonna do everything I can to ensure that a Democrat has the best chance,” because that's, you know, what I support and my values, my political beliefs. And you know, if I'm unsuccessful, at least I'll be able to complain about it because I did all the things that I could do, right? I did my part, okay? I did my part. 

But I think that sometimes we think that passive action is action when it is inaction. It is not doing anything. You are sitting still. So I think, you know, stay informed, yes, but be very intentional about it. But you want to be doing something. So being informed is really only a part of it, and frankly at this point, you don't have to stay as informed as you think you do. You just have to be active. So that, that one soft thing's important, scheduling the joy, and that one civic thing. What are you doing in community with other like-minded people to organize and ensure that people are elected to represent us who believe and will protect American democracy?

LaFonda: Yeah. One soft, one civic thing is what I have taken from this conversation as a call to action. Um, that is, that is what I'm taking. But I am taking so many more nuggets because, one, I'm jealous. I sent a message to our producer before this conversation, like, "Does she need a roommate? Because I'm over it. I need to get out of here.”

But while I'm here, I am committed to one soft and one civic thing a day. Um, I am so glad that I finally got to talk to you. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. 

Zerlina: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a delightful conversation.