You Can't Stop Planned Parenthood (with Nan Whaley and Gwynne Perry)

Today is the four-year anniversary of the Dobbs decision -- the day the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade and with it, our constitutional right to abortion care.

But women across the country have been fighting back: marching, calling their legislators, and sharing their personal abortion stories. Places like Ohio have even put laws and constitutional amendments on the ballot to enshrine abortion rights in their state.

Doctors and providers have been working hard to make sure reproductive care stays available too. In today's episode, we talked to Nan Whaley and Gwynne Perry from Planned Parenthood of Southwest Ohio. Earlier this spring, an anti-choice protester attacked their clinic and set it on fire, but Nan and Gwynne didn't hesitate. They opened the clinic the very next day, ensuring that patients didn't experience even a one-day interruption in their care.

In Gwynne's words, "We thought, hell no. We're not doing this. We're gonna see patients. So we did."

Four years on from the Dobbs decision, lifesaving care is being provided not by politicians or Supreme Court Justices. It's coming from women like Gwynne and Nan -- and for that, we're grateful.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

HTNLYS E40: You Can’t Stop Planned Parenthood (with Nan Whaley and Gwynne Perry)

Katie: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I'm Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine and Blue.

LaFonda: And I'm LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue. 

Katie: So today is the four-year anniversary of the Dobbs decision, where the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade, and with it, our federal right to abortion care. Can you believe it's been four years, LaFonda?

LaFonda: I actually cannot believe it's four years, but it is one of those things, you know, you have those moments in history where you can remember exactly where you were and what you were doing when it happened. 

Katie: Wait, where were you, and what was happening? 

LaFonda: I was sitting at a kitchen table, and I remember just, like, hearing it, and I was like, "That isn’t real.” Like, the day before, I remember hearing it was going to happen, and I was like, "That is not going to happen. Everybody needs to calm down." And then when it did, I was like- 

Katie: Yeah ... 

LaFonda: “Are we really doing this right now?" Like, I was, I think I was living in one of those places of delusion. Like, “this will all get fixed. Like, people will realize this is a mistake, and this will all get fixed.”

Katie: That's right. And we're still living with the consequences. Yeah. So I, yeah, I guess that was, like, not long before we met, and you came to Red Wine and Blue. 

I mean, it was, the decision came down at Red Wine and Blue, where we were all anticipating it. We were in close touch. I think we hopped online immediately. We're hosting conversations with women in our community just trying to process it all. Online conversations had been blowing up since the decision had been leaked. Women were sharing their personal abortion stories within our community. In many cases, stories that they said that they had never shared before, that they'd felt a sense of shame, but that now with their rights threatened in a way that they never thought would actually happen, they felt out of a sense of defiance that they needed to share their stories.

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: I will never... I just, I remember it so vividly. We were seizing the moment, though, to, you know, open that door to say, "You are safe here. Share your story here. We will support you. We have each other's back." And we've been taking action ever since. Even though, you know, here we are four years later, and the impacts of the decision are felt every day, yet there's not the attention on this is- that there should be.

That's why I think it's all the more important that we share this episode today, this conversation that we had today with Nan Whaley and Gwynne Perry. Nan is the CEO of Planned Parenthood Southwest Ohio, and Gwynne is the medical director at a clinic that was recently attacked and set on fire, literal arson, at this Planned Parenthood clinic.

But the way both of these women immediately rose to the challenge and opened the clinic the next morning anyway is really an inspiring story. And so we just wanted to hear more about it. These are the stories we need to keep going, and this is a story we especially need on the anniversary of the Dobbs decision, 'cause we got a whole lot more fight left in us yet.

LaFonda: I think the one thing that she said the clinic or Planned Parenthood was about was care no matter what, right? Like, nothing stops us. And when we talked about, uh, the arson incident and they all showed up, like, they jumped out of bed. They were willing to come in in the middle of the night to take care of patients.

They opened the next day. They walked past protesters who were still willing to be outside after an arson event. Like, there's so much going on, and they were still willing to open, still willing to provide care for patients. That is a level of just love for people and love for community and love for d- or love for the mission that really spoke for me, to me.

Like, the care no matter what really stood out to me as part of that interview, and you can just really tell from Gwyn that she really, really loves the work that she does. Like, it really matters to her, the education that they're providing. I think people that understand what Planned Parenthood is about understand what Planned Parenthood is about, right? But that it's more than just abortions, right? Like, it's family planning. It is birth control. It is education. It is, um, I think she talked about intimate partner violence education. It i- there's so many things that clinics like Planned Parenthood provide, and it just, it means so much. 

Katie: It says everything about their commitment to show up for women no matter what. Their resilience in the face of it almost felt like it was a given. They're like, "What? Like we'd respond any other way? Like, we're up against it day in and day out. This is just, like, hate to say it, but maybe just another day that ends in Y." So we are, we are moving forward. And just knowing that there are so many women across the country working for Planned Parenthood and for other independent clinics in this line of work and doing it with so much strength and resolve gives me a greater sense of strength and resolve.

You know? Like, if, if they're gonna get up every day and do this hard work, like, I can have their back to make sure that they can. So this was an important conversation for me to hear. It grounded me in the work that we do in support of reproductive rights. It made it feel super concrete, super real, and super worth fighting for.

LaFonda: Yeah. It's a really important story. 

Katie: Okay, so Nan and Gwynne, who I've only read about in the papers, but Nan, of course, who I've known for a good long time, I'm so excited to have you both here. Thanks for joining us. 

Nan: Thank you. Thanks for all you guys do. You know, we're big fans of Red Wine & Blue down here, and, uh, work with a lot of your groups, like the Anderson Moms, who we, uh, adore, and, um, are great supporters of the work we do down here in southwest Ohio.

Katie: Amen to that. Glad to hear it. 

Okay. I wanna start this conversation by asking you to share the story of the arson that happened at your Planned Parenthood. Gwynne, I understand you work there day in and day out. Nan, this is, you know, a key clinic among the Planned Parenthood network that you, um, oversee and advocate on behalf of in southwest Ohio. Can y'all just tell us what happened and how you responded? 

Nan: So the Auburn clinic is the first abortion clinic for 1,301 miles from Key West, Florida on I-75. 

Katie: Wow. 

Nan: So we're really what has become what they call a safe haven clinic, and that's really changed who we used to see. Before the loss of Roe, around 80% of our patients were from Ohio, and today about half of the people that receive care here are from Ohio. So really a lot more traveling, um, happening at both of our Dayton and Cincinnati clinics. 

And so we recognize, like, you know, if you come to our clinics, you know that you're gonna have protesters at the front that are extremists and insane. And our patients and our staff have to go through a lot, frankly, to receive amazing care here, which is phenomenal care. The work that Gwynne and her team does, it gets 95, 96%, uh, satisfaction rates. That's 20, 25 points higher than most healthcare facilities across the country, even though folks have to pass through some real hatred to get through our doors. 

So the night of April 9th, uh, I was in Dayton. I live in Dayton, and I got a call in the middle of the night from our COO, who told me that the building was on fire. And I thought, "We- we've been doing a lot of work on the building," and so I was like, "Look, you know, I'm sure it's, like, an electrical outing." Like, you know, we've had a lot of vendors in the building. But, you know, get up in the middle of the night, put my clothes on, tell my husband, like, you know, "There's a fire.

I gotta get down there." 

So driving down I-75, I get a call about 20 more minutes, and it's... We have video of this person that is going into the clinic to set it on fire. And so we got there, and then our team assessed with Cincinnati Fire. It was amazing. Cincinnati Police, they were there within five minutes, put the fire out. But, you know, when you have a fire on the first floor, like, the water damage, like, the first floor is, like, gone. But Fire said that, you know, the building was secure on the second and third floor, and that we could open the second and third floor, like, the very next day. 

Our team called our amazing providers, like Gwynne, and said, "Hey, how do you feel about this?" And they were like, "Oh, no, we're opening," which is so amazing. These badass women I get to work with every day, most of them are women- Are just amazing and really are centered around our patients. We had three patients that day that were staying overnight that were gonna need care at 8:00 in the morning, and they were gonna be there to provide for them and provide for others as well.

It wasn't even like a question really, was it, Gwynne? Uh, you can talk a little bit about the staff and how the staff responded, but it's pretty amazing. 

Katie: Yeah, I'd love to hear, Gwynne. What was that like for you to hear about the news of the fire and how did you decide so quickly that, yes, we're staying open?

Gwynne: Yeah, it was, it was really crazy. So, I get up early a lot of days, um, start work, um, just 'cause I don't sleep great. So um, so I was actually up really early and was on the computer and our VP of, uh, operations saw that I was on and she's like, "Are you up?" I'm like, "Mm, yeah." And she said, you know, "Did you see the message?" I'm like, "What happened?" And so she told me, and I'm like, "What do you guys need? Do you need me to come in? Like, what, what's happening? Like, do you guys need clothes? Do you need food? Like, what?" And, um, she's like, "No, we're good for now, um, but, you know, we need to send an emergency message out to patients and we need to, you know, ensure that we're able to see people."

So as soon as, um, people started waking up, the managers reached out to all our staff, and our staff were like, "Um, we'll come in now. Like, can we open now? What do you need?" It was such a mission moment for me stepping off the elevator. I look in, um, our surgery department and Nan's there. Our VP of, um, health center operations was there. You could tell that they had been there all night. So our CEO, our COO, like, all our senior leadership is there and had been there all night. 

You know, I'm like, I'm fighting back tears. You know, because what other organization is going to have their senior leadership be there and, and show their staff that it's that important for patients to be seen? And it wasn't, it's not a financial thing. You know, it's, it's really being able to see patients. It was just such a mission moment for me, um, to be like, "Well, yeah, this is what we're doing." 

Katie: Well, obviously the arsonist, their whole point was to... They were trying to get the opposite effect, right? Make you feel scared, maybe have senior leadership tell everybody to go home, "we're shutting down for weeks, we need to..." And instead, there you all were, just showing up shoulder to shoulder. 

Gwynne: Absolutely. Like, "Hell no. This is not, we're not doing this. We're gonna see patients." So we did. 

Nan: And w- and we were open Sa- like, this was one of our Saturdays we were open, so we just kept on going through the weekend. So, which was really great. 

Gwynne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had telehealth open. We had, you know, we saw patients that day, gave them the option to, you know, be seen the next day if they wanted, telehealth if they wanted, to come in that day if they wanted. And, you know, they, they didn't hesitate either, um, which is pretty amazing.

I think, you know, for them not to step back either was a renewing sense of, of mission for me, too. They were like, "No, not happening. We're gonna come in and we're gonna get care." 

LaFonda: I think it's really beautiful that everyone showed up for your patients. Like, you said senior leadership showed up. You were like, "I'm gonna get out of my bed right now and come in right now if you need me to, right now," because everyone wanted to show up for your patients.

But why was it important for you to stay open? No one would've blamed you if you were like, "We need to do repairs. It's devastating. This is a really big thing that, that happened," and it's far from the first attack on Planned Parenthood. But for you specifically, why was it important for you to stay open that day?

Gwynne: Because that's exactly why this happened. This happened because people want to shut us down. People want people to be scared to come to us and want us to not be able to provide services, and that is exactly what is not going to happen. We're gonna do everything in our power to ensure that that doesn't happen.

And so every time, every attack, every media blurb, every written, every phone call, every protester that we walk by- Hell no. Literally, hell no. It is so frustrating, and it, it just renews us to say, "No, it is not happening. We are going to be here. We're going to be here for our patients, and you can do whatever you think you need to do, but it's not gonna matter."

LaFonda: And did you still have people protesting outside the next day? 

Gwynne: Yes. 

LaFonda: That has to be so empowering to, like, still walk past them into this building that had fire the night before and say, "We're still gonna do the job that we feel like is our calling to do." 

Nan: Yeah, I think, I think it's, you know, part of Planned Parenthood's mission is this care no matter what, and that's really what everyone, I think, really leans into that, that works here and chooses, chooses to be a provider at Planned Parenthood, right, is that nothing stops us. And there's a real mindset about that. 

And I think that's just because, you know, you're talking about a group of people in an organization that has been under attack for decades. This latest administration, while it's been incredibly painful, isn't something new for us. We've seen other nonprofits and other groups starting to be attacked, and, you know, frankly, like, this is a place that we've been, sadly, over and over again.

And so that's just the work that I think we view as being on the front lines. It doesn't make it right. We don't like it. Um, but people, you know, need us, um, in really life or death situations here, and so there's just no way that we can stop. I think the other point, too, is, you know, because we're sitting right across the Ohio River and we have people traveling hundreds of miles to see us, the stakes are even higher here for us because it's not like, for some of our patients, a quick trip to get here. And that drives us more and more into this work because of the people we see traveling here. We are the fourth most traveled affiliate in the country now. Uh, that kind of work has just really, I think, changed our mindset about what we're doing because it's not just this 23-county region that we're providing for now, too.

Katie: You all make me really proud to be an Ohian. You know, as someone who voted with the very strong majority of Ohio to protect reproductive rights, as someone who collected hundreds of signatures to get reproductive rights here on the ballot in our state, like- That's just the beginning. When we voted in the wake of Dobbs and, you know, Roe being eliminated to actually protect reproductive rights in our state, that's just step one.

You all every day are making sure that women can actually access that right. And so it's no, like, niche thing you all are doing. You are standing up for the majority of Ohioans, the majority of Americans every single day to be able to access our basic rights to healthcare that we have affirmed in our Constitution.

Why is there such a disconnect here, do we think? Like, this nonstop attack on reproductive rights. And of course, we're seeing from the federal government now, as you said, Planned Parenthood is not new to attacks from anyone, whether it's a local arsonist or the federal government. But why do we continue despite the fact that we had such a strong majority of Ohioans support reproductive rights? Why does this have to be your day in and day out? 

Nan: Well, I'll say a couple things. I think first, you know, at the basic, it's about the control of other people, particularly the control of women, right? That's what this is about. Uh, you know, at our core, we are about bodily autonomy. Like, this is a freedom issue at its very simple point. If you don't have the freedom to make decisions about your own body, whether that's gender-affirming care, birth control, family planning, or abortion access, like, that is a taking away of a fundamental freedom and right for women particularly. And I think that's at the core of it. You can, you know, have these discussions with folks that are not pro-choice, and at the end of the day, it always comes back to people wanting to tell other people what to do with their body.

What is really exciting to me is in my lifetime, we've seen a change in, particularly in southwest Ohio. I've been an advocate for abortion access since I was in college. I was not in the majority in that in the '90s in southwest Ohio. And to now see that we are the majority is a mindset change for us down here, too. So while it's great, like, that you say you're excited as someone who has been someone that's, you know, passed, helped pass the referendum, I view our job as someone to make sure that we expand abortion as much as possible so the people that fought for that access aren't disappointed in us either as providers.

And, you know, that's the work that we have to do because it's not just Ohio that we're providing for. We are always on the front lines as Planned Parenthood. You know, when we started 100 years ago, we started with birth control because it was taboo. Now it is not. We have to do the same work around abortion access and around gender-affirming care, and we-- I am proud to be on the front lines of that fight to continue to the work of changing hearts and minds in this work. But that at its core, I think, is what it's all about. 

Katie: And has the work changed since Ohio passed the referendum protecting reproductive rights? Just sort of the mindset, I'm curious, at the clinic. Um, did, has that changed what the experience has been for your coworkers? 

Gwynne: I, I don't think the mindset's changed for us. I mean, I think we are, we're still fighting every day, you know? I, and I don't think that anything, uh, legally is gonna change what we, how we think or how, or what we do. 

Nan: I'll say, too, Katie, I, I have found with a lot of our staff, it is, like, a difference... There, there's a, there was a mindset, I think, of, like, nobody wanted to work with us, you know, in Cincinnati and in Dayton. You know, there are other hospitals and organizations that are highly affiliated with the Catholic Church, and so it's, it's actually much more difficult to provide abortion in southwest Ohio than the rest par- the rest of the state because of that. 

But there is a difference, and I've talked to our chief medical director, of, like, the day that the referendum passed, to know that the people are with you in a way that you didn't really necessarily think beforehand the people were with you.

Like, to Gwynne's point, they're always gonna do this work whether people agree with them or not, but there is a difference when you know the public is with you even if the government's not. And I think that's been, just for the whole organization, a mindset change that I like to tell, we're popular. We are the popular people now, right?

So, uh, that's a difference. Like, Planned Parenthood is very popular. I like to remind folks of that. There are extremists and insane people that want to do harm to us, but that is not where the majority of Ohioans are. And so, that has been a change for our staff and a change for our, our, I think, our supporters.

And, you know, trying to flex that muscle down here is something that we're, we're doing, too. Uh, you know, we're talking to elected officials, even Democrats, you know, that claim to be pro-choice, and we, like, "Well, you show us some actions that are pro-choice, and then we'll tell you if you're pro-choice," right?

So that mindset has changed. So I, I think, like, there was an attitude for a long time of, like, just, you know, frankly, taking scraps, and that is not the mindset today. 

LaFonda: I'm curious to hear what inspired both of you to actually do this work. What inspired both of you to work for Planned Parenthood? Nan, I know you were the mayor of Dayton and you ran for Ohio governor. What made you decide to, to bring that focus in a little bit and focus it completely on reproductive care specifically? 

Nan: So yeah, I mean, I've al- like I said, I've always been an activist around this issue. Uh, and then in the governor's race it became a center point around the governor's race because of the fall of Roe during that campaign. And look, I mean, I like to tease, like, I was a, um, controversial figure as mayor, uh, during my time there as well. And so my joke is that I feel like I need to be in a position where someone disagrees with me very publicly every day, and you definitely get that at Planned Parenthood. If someone's not disagreeing, then, like, I'm out. Like, that's too boring. Um, uh, but no, in all seriousness, I am really lucky in my career and in my life that I have gotten to do work where I believe I can make an impact. 

Gwynne: Yeah. 

Nan: And you know, I come from a family of, of people that have worked with their hands and their bodies their whole life and, you know, the first person to be able to get, actually get to make choices about how I spend my time in this work this way is, I think, like, just a huge privilege and I don't wanna waste that.

This location and geography is particularly important for the country, and so making sure we protect and advocate for that is really key, too. I wanna mention, you know, Planned Parenthood Southwest Ohio, we, you know, just because we passed the referendum doesn't mean, like, Mike DeWine said, "Oh, okay, you get all your rights."

So we have to sue for every single thing, for the end of 24-hour wait, for the end of the six-week ban, for medication abortion being, you know, prescribed by nurse, you know, nurse practitioners. We are the plaintiffs, like Gwynne's team and Gwynne's coworkers are the plaintiffs on every single one of those cases, except for one.

So in addition to, like, coming through Cincinnati to, to, um, get access to care, we are also the place where we fight for the justice for the entire state as Planned Parenthood Southwest Ohio. So this is a particularly important location in this work. And, um, I think you guys know, like, I just love a good fight.

Katie: All right, how about you, Gwynne? What inspired you to do this work? 

Gwynne: Yeah. So I'm a nurse midwife, so I caught babies for many years, and part of that is, um, you know, talking with women and educating people, um, about their bodies and their choices. And, you know, that whole education piece and that whole decision about your body and what your rights are and, and, you know, lots of, um, discussions with providers, not myself, but, um, my collaborating providers, advocating for my patients, that gave me a lot of thought about, you know, what my next steps would be.

And a lot of what we do, um, at Planned Parenthood is talking with patients, doing a lot of screening for domestic violence, for, you know, genetic issues, you know, for counseling, for intimate partner violence and reproductive coercion. And so it seemed like a really great next step, um, when I moved out of the 24-hour call and the whole weekend call, you know, as I needed, uh, with my family to make some different decisions.

And, you know, being here at Planned Parenthood has been very, very rewarding in being able to help people understand what healthy relationships are, being able to just allow people to make decisions for themselves about their bodies and about relationships. So it was, it was a natural progression for me.

Nan: And Gwynne, Gwynne, how long have you been here now? 

Gwynne: Since 2012. 

Katie: Wow. 

Gwynne: Yeah. And, you know, have had some offers to be other places, but that is not what I want. I want to be here and to continue to do the work that we do. 

Katie: Well, and you all are delivering. Those satisfaction ratings are so incredible, especially, uh, given the headwinds you all face every single day.

We are facing so much as Americans right now. I don't know a single person who doesn't report feeling overwhelmed. Where are you all finding that courage to get up every day? I know Nan wants to fight. What about you? What about you, though, Gwyn? You know, I think, I think a lot of us, we're all looking for ways of, like, how do we dig deep right now and find that courage when there is so much n- negativity, threats, attacks coming at us as women and everything else right now.

Gwynne: You know, I... To be honest, I think that the people that choose mission-driven work probably are a lot like Nan. Like, we have that mental fortitude. Uh, it's almost, like, ingrained. I think it's probably in our job description. But, you know, I think there's, like, this unspoken understanding that the work's gonna be inherently difficult, you know, to some degree.

But the patients themselves and the stories that come out of our visits, um, on the other side of that, um, make it rewarding. So the grit that it takes and knowing, you know, when you go by those protesters, you know, on your way out, you can give them the peace sign and be like, "Whatever," you know? Like, I know that I'm gonna take one thing from today, and it might just be one thing, but I'm gonna take something from today that is meaningful that I know I did for somebody, and it's worth it.

And I think just knowing that and knowing each day that there's... I made a difference to somebody, that makes it worth it. 

Katie: And Nan, I'd love to hear from you. You've always been a fighter, absolutely a mission-driven person, but how has it felt different to do that fight, to be in the fight not as, uh, an elected official, not as a candidate running for office, but doing this work right along, uh, shoulder to shoulder with women like Gwynne 

Nan: I mean, I lo- I love it, Katie. I find it, frankly, more meaningful. Like, I loved being mayor and to everything a season. Um, but you are changing and, you know, being a part in getting to lead this organization with the people that change people's lives every day, that don't have options, and we're giving non-judgmental care is just, I mean, awesome.

I mean, it, it, it is... You can go to bed every night and know that you have done something that has been meaningful directly in people's lives every day. And look, I love, I love this team. This- when I came here, I didn't know a single person on the staff. Uh, I knew a lot of the board, I knew a lot of the supporters.

I didn't know a single person. You know, it's been, it's been this group over the past decades that have continued to do this work. So to work with people that are so committed to what we have to do to fight, this is not a fight that is going to be solved in, like, one election, right? We are in this fight over the next few decades, and to realize that that's the moment we have here in this location, people get that, and to be in the fight alongside them is just an incredible honor.

Our doctors have been here for decades. They, they live in Cincinnati. They live in the area. They're not traveling, and they're part of this community, and that makes it very unique here, too. It's why we are so strong. And to give them the support they need, and to help, you know, raise awareness about this issue, and to do my part in that, like, I just, I just feel very, very lucky to get to do it. It is different, but it is really, really meaningful. 

Katie: I think that's really cool, Nan. I mean, as you know, I used to work on campaigns, you know, presidentials, US Senate, governor's races. But doing local work alongside other badass women, organizing at the local level, I have never found more meaning, and that's where I think the answers are, you know? I don't want politicians in DC dictating policy about my reproductive care. I want women like Gwynne doing that, you know? 

Nan: Right. That's right. I agree. And yeah, I've always, you know, I've always beli- believed, like, local is where it's at. So this is just another way of being hyper local, too. 

Katie: Thank you both for doing what you do.

We just wanted to amplify the story of what happened at a Planned Parenthood clinic that women across, not just Ohio, but as you said, driving over 1,000 miles away to get the care they need are accessing. Like, do you- it was just so heroic how you all opened the next day despite- such a, a fierce attack. I mean, arson.

I mean, that's scary for anybody to have happen. And in the face that you opened the next day and you provided that care to women, and to me, that is just the defiance and the courage that I need to see to keep going one more day, and I know so many other people are gonna feel that way, too. So thanks for sharing this story with us, y'all, and keep it up.

Nan: Well, you guys keep it up, too. Thank you. Thanks for your guys' support and activism, and we'll keep going. 

Katie: Always.