Evangelicals Are The Original Trad Wives (with Kristin Du Mez)

Kristin Du Mez's book Jesus and John Wayne changed the way that America sees evangelicals. It even inspired many evangelical women to leave the church, giving them words for the gender inequalities they'd felt all along.

Our guest host Aimee Saunders, a Red Wine & Blue organizer in Pennsylvania, is one of these women. She grew up in the evangelical church and did everything that was expected of her: submitting to her husband, homeschooling her kids, and not pursuing her own career. It didn't feel right, but she was told that she was the problem. She just had to pray and obey harder. But reading Jesus and John Wayne with a virtual bookclub six years ago, Aimee realized she needed to break up with the evangelical church.

Kristin Du Mez has a new book coming out in September, Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made. Aimee and Kristin's conversation about gender, community, politics, and the church was fascinating... Aimee lived the history that Kristin writes about in her books! Whether you're from the evangelical world yourself or it's brand new to you, there's something for everyone to learn from these smart thoughtful women.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

How To Not Lose Your Sh!t Episode 44: Live, Laugh, Love (with Kristin Du Mez)

LaFonda: Hi everyone, welcome to How To Not Lose Your Shit! I am LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue.

Aimee: And I'm Aimee Saunders, a Red Wine and Blue organizer in Pennsylvania. 

LaFonda: Welcome, Aimee, to the podcast, and thank you for filling in for Katie. This is two weeks in a row we've had amazing organizers filling in for Katie. I'm so excited. 

Aimee: Thank you for the ask. I was so honored. 

LaFonda: Yay. It, it was an amazing conversation. So today, we are talking to Kristin Du Mez, and she is the author of the book Jesus and John Wayne, and the upcoming book, Live, Laugh, Love. And Aimee, you have some very personal experience with the Evangelical church, so I'm really glad you were able to join me to have this conversation with Kristin today. I was, like, watching the conversation back and forth like a tennis match. It was incredible. 

Aimee: Well, I have been an admirer of, of her for a long time, and like I, I mentioned in the pod, she was, uh, very pivotal to my, uh, process of healing and leaving these high-control spaces. And so getting a chance to actually converse with her about these topics and from the place that I am now in this position, in this job, in this organization, but also just in this life that I'm in, is really kind of like a full circle moment for me.

Uh, because I remember reading her book, uh, and taking breaks to cry and grieve and mourn on the couch while my kids were finally in public school. And, you know, just getting to a place where I could be here and, and talk with y'all, I just... I appreciate you allowing me to bring my full self to the conversation.

LaFonda: I love it, and I love the parts of this conversation where you talk about, like, leaving and how you reached out to people and how that brought you to Red Wine and Blue. That was actually my personal favorite part. So I'm really glad you got to have this conversation because I've always thought your story was really incredible, and I'm glad that our listeners will get to hear it as well.

So we're just going to hop right in and get to it. So let's bring on Kristin Du Mez. Hi, Kristin. Hi. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Kristin: Thanks for having me. This is very fun. 

LaFonda: So you have a book. Your book, Jesus and John Wayne, changed how Americans understand Evangelical men, and now your new book, Live, Laugh, Love, looks at Evangelical women. Why do you think that the Evangelical church is so obsessed with gender? And I'm asking as someone who works for a women's org. 

Kristin: Mm-hmm. Fundamentally, gender is a way, particularly for evangelicals, of ordering the world and of kind of understanding the complexity of the world in a way that is hierarchical. It is a way of controlling. And, uh, it is about much more than that. It's about people finding their sense of identity and belonging. Um, but particularly when you get to stark gender difference and, uh, kind of coercive ideals of what women can and cannot do, it is also fundamentally about power and control.

Aimee: We've been seeing a lot about trad wives lately, and of course, not all trad wives are evangelical-  

Kristin: No.

Aimee: ... but there's a lot of overlap. Um, I feel like evangelical women were the original trad wives. And that kind of white Christian femininity on social media pretends to be empowering, but of course, it actually takes power away from women. Now, I kind of come to Red Wine & Blue saying that I'm essentially a former trad wife, um, and I was encouraged to do that by the women in my church. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Aimee: Not my husband, not the men, it was the women. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Aimee: It was a vulnerable time in my life, and I was wanting things and desiring things for myself that they said, "Not only are those things not possible, but you shouldn't be wanting them, and this is what you should be doing instead."

And so I stopped researching PhD programs, and I started researching homeschooling curriculum, and that- that's the pipeline, right? But what I noticed is that a lot of the older trad wife, you know, movement was these older mentor women in the church, and now it's these young women- 

Kristin: Yes ... 

Aimee: on social media. So why do you think that this kind of content has become so popular?

Kristin: Oh, you said so much in, in that question. That is, that is so important, right? That, um, originally we, we had people like Nancy Wilson, Doug Wilson's wife, really, um, indoctrinating generations of women into a very narrow conception of how to be a faithful Christian woman. And it had to do with, you know, doing your husband's laundry, and ironing his handkerchiefs, and never ever, ever complaining, and being very, very feminine, and focusing on your appearance, and again, never complaining.

Accept your circumstances, submit to your husband, right? That's kind of the model. And then now we have the tradwife phenomenon, which is different in that it kind of has broken outside of that subculture, because that's the way of the internet. That's the way of social media. So this whole world that has existed for generations now of women telling other women how to be proper women, godly women, how to obey God by obeying your husband, that, like, for people inside the subculture, nothing new about that.

But now, like, the outside world gets a glimpse at these lessons. But your question ultimately was what attracts women to this, and I actually, um, quote some women in the book who were drawn to this, and they said, um, "One thing is its simplicity." It gives people who feel confused, who lack a sense of identity and belonging, very clear rules, and these rules always come with promises. Promises of success, promises of blessing, promises of happiness.

But then they're so pernicious because if those things don't manifest, it's, it's your own fault. So what did you do wrong? It's y- you shoulder the blame, so you have to be more obedient, right? The problem isn't the system, that it's a lie, the problem is always you. You haven't submitted yourself fully enough.

And Live Laugh Love is just filled with, honestly, heart-wrenching stories of women who bought into this and then lived long enough to, to realize that it just wasn't true. Um, some of them spent the rest of their lives really suffering and blaming themselves, and some found a way to break free. Um, but initially, it gives women really tantalizing assurances that if they do these things, they'll find happiness.

Aimee: Yeah. I mean, it just, it takes areas where women maybe aren't confident and are really unsupported based on policies that are intentionally put in place, and then it hands them this formula that says, "This will fix it." Yeah. But just like you said, I was constantly beating myself up when it wasn't working.

Kristin: Yes. 

Aimee: And I never asked the question of whether or not it was, you know, we were following the wrong formula. It was, "No, I'm just doing it wrong." And it's just the constant shame and self-loathing that you are somehow failing. And then, you know, at, at the exit of that, there's this grief that the, that, that the system failed you.

And so I just, I wanna bring up Jesus and John Wayne for one minute because, uh, there's really, like, I think, like, two chapters that you really focus on women in that book. One having to do with a lot of the abuse allegations and things like that, and the other is a, a book about homeschooling And, or a chapter about homeschooling. And I gotta tell you, when I finished that chapter, my husband was outside mowing the lawn, and I walked outside, and it was very cinematic. I stood in front of the lawnmower so he would stop, and he, and then I just broke down crying because I felt this deep regret, first of all, for, like, what I had put my children through unnecessarily, because when I knew things weren't working, I stayed with it because I could not face the idea of failure.

But at the other, uh, other end of it, I realized how much I had cut off pieces of myself to fit in this tiny little box, and so I just had to grieve it, right? And so that chapter was a pivotal part of my grieving process. 

Kristin: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. And, um, because of Jesus and John Wayne, it, you know, that's been out six years now, and I have received thousands and thousands of letters and messages from readers with similar stories, right?

And so with Live, Laugh, Love, it's a little bit different because I brought many of those stories of just ordinary women who, who lived this life into this book, and I think those are the most poignant parts because they're real women with really good intentions getting caught up in these systems. And, and you also, you, you mentioned you were, you know, do I go to get a PhD or, well, I'll, I'll be a homeschool mom instead.

What I kept encountering is that the women that I was writing about were incredibly gifted, competent women. Um, they- these are not meek or, you know, just lacking intellectual capacity at all. Incredibly talented women. But the kind of worldly activities were so constrained that they were allowed to do, "Nope, you can't go get a job. You certainly can't have a career." You know, “college education, iffy. Beyond that, absolutely not.” And so you stay at home with your kids, serve your church. 

So you have all of this capacity and energy that then gets channeled into one of the, you know, small number of acceptable spaces. So homeschool, absolutely. Women's ministry, women's activities, MOPS, that sort of thing. Yep, that's cool. And multi-level marketing, right? You can do that, too. So, so you have all of this energy, right, that is not going elsewhere, and so it goes- Yeah ... into the systems that perpetuate it, right? And so it really is pernicious.  

Aimee: Yah, I mean, it's interesting because I never really felt like I had the skill set, uh, for the opportunities that were available to me.

Kristin: Yeah. 

Aimee: And instead, I had a skill set for something that was not available to me. 

Kristin: Yes. 

Aimee: And you see women make that calculation, that there's the ones that say, "I really wanna be in that room talking about those things, and instead I'm in here." And so y- you know, I just remember in high school, I went to an evangelical school, and I had one teacher who sa- took me aside and said he saw these skills in me and thought that I could be political, ironically.

And what he handed me was a stack of, uh, speeches by Phyllis Schlafly, and told me that was the model. So it, it seems like they pluck these women who do have this capacity, but they make sure that they put them in the line to have these privileges to be able to just keep other women in place, right?

LaFonda: It sounds like the system is operating how it's designed to operate. Like, you get pulled into it, and the power is staying where it's supposed to stay. The hierarchy is operating how it's supposed to operate. You are getting the information. You're being told that you're gifted, and you should be in politics, and then you're given the information to go right where they want you to go.

Um, so you've, you mentioned the hierarchies before, and one thing that the evangelical church and authoritarian governments have in common is that someone has to be in charge, and they sort of push people where they need to be. Someone has to be more powerful than the other people. But we are out here trying to build communities based on equality.

Do you have any advice for how we start to bring in more evangelical women into the community that we're building? Aimee is doing a really great job of that in her role, but what other advice do you have for us trying to do that? 

Kristin: Oh, I mean, there's so much that could be said. Um, I'll try to give kind of the unique perspective of what Live, Laugh, Love might bring into this mix.

Um, and, uh, that is, I think one of the things that the book does is brings in an understanding. I'd said it's primarily about reward, but there, there is... There are other mechanisms as well. So, I actually spend considerable time in this book teasing out the systems of manipulation and control and what is done to women or men who prove disloyal to the system.

And, um, if you have been in evangelical or ex-evangelical spaces, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. You know, this is where I, I track stories of people who try to speak out, try to change this direction, try to point out where some of the practices don't align with the teachings, say, of Jesus, um, of the theology even of the church that you attend, and then what happens Things get rough, right?

You have the, the circling of the wagons. Even in cases where abuse surfaces, more often than not, it's the victims who are ostracized and the predators who are defended. And there's a reason for this. This is- they're, they're- this is part of the design, right? They're, they're doing what the system is designed to do.

And so what I did as a historian is figured out, where does this come from? Where do these practices... Because yes, it's, it's kind of typical to a certain extent, but no, what you see happening inside these evangelical spaces, the shame, the shunning, the punishment, the ostracizing, the demonization of good people, one-time insiders who just say, "Wait a minute," right?

It's not normal. And so one of the things this book does, part of the secret history that it traces, is figuring out where these practices came from, how they were deliberately constructed. And I think that that is going to help. That is going to help people take that step with courage to maybe speak truth for the first time in your community.

Because if you know what you are likely to face, if you know what will likely be done to you. It hurts a lot less when you realize it's not personal. I mean, it is personal, but it's not just about you. It is the way the system was designed. And so the more you can educate yourself about the dynamics religiously, but also politically, right?

You could extrapolate and talk about the Republican Party here as well. These dynamics of shunning, of punishing, of, of, um, keeping people loyal to the system, understanding that, and you're gonna have courage to speak truth and knowing that there may be consequences, but the good news is you'll find many people also on the outside who have been pushed outside for speaking truth, and there is so much power in that.

Aimee: Yeah, I mean, I remember just feeling completely unmoored and feeling like all the social capital I had built for the first half of my life just disappeared overnight. 

Kristin: Exactly. 

Aimee: And I, I actually, out of that, started meeting with a group of women online. It was during the pandemic, and we spent two years discussing your book, Jesus and John Wayne.

Um, and that was part of my healing process, uh, during that time. And we were, uh, these were all women from different denominations, different exper- like, we'd all experienced the same things, but we experienced them very differently. And one of the things that I really noticed leaving those spaces is how much that system impacts women's relationships with other women, women's friendships.

And I actually at the end of it looked back and thought, "Did I ever have a real friend? Um, were all of my relationships transactional?" Because that's how it felt at the end. And I, what I came to the id- and I would love to hear your thoughts on this, I came to the conclusion um, that when you build a system based on scarcity for women, then you are scrappling for anything you can get. And so it is impossible to actually want other women to win. 

LaFonda: Hmm. Hmm. 

Aimee: And it was leaving that space and being around women who weren't brought up in it that I first started to experience the security that they had in themselves to be able to want me to win. And so there, there, this is a theme that evangelical women struggle with female friendships.

Kristin: Yeah. 

Aimee: And I think that it's systemic. I don't think it's individualistic . So I would love to know your thoughts on that. 

Kristin: Wow. Uh, so many thoughts on that, and I feel like you could be a character in Live, Laugh, Love. I mean, seriously, like I, I took the people whose stories were surfacing because there are so many that are so similar along these lines.

And yes, these friendships, uh, do not... First of all, I'll say they do not feel transactional. They feel authentic. You, you, you step into an evangelical megachurch, and people will surround you, and they'll invite you- 

Aimee: Love bombing…

Kristin: Love bombing, absolutely, to do life together so that your whole life becomes enmeshed, your children's lives, your identity, your friendships, who, who brings you the casserole when you have the baby, who celebrates with you, who shows up for you.

And these, um, feel very real, and maybe they are real, um, but they're, they're also conditional because if you break the rules If you start asking too many questions, if you start critiquing the power structures, then those friendships are cut off, and sometimes naturally because it makes somebody uncomfortable, but sometimes quite intentionally people are told, "Nope, they're out- they're outside now." Right? People are literally told, "You don't talk to them anymore," especially in the case of, you know, people bringing up allegations of abuse, their own children victimized, and like, nope, they're cut out of the community. 

Where this all kind of, like, crystallized for me is when I was early on in the research process researching my chapter on multi-level marketing, because book called Live, Laugh, Love, of course you're gonna have a chapter on Mary Kay and, and Lula Roe and all of that, of course.

But I was wo- I was studying how, you know, the uplines, the downlines work, no negativity, only positivity, no complaining. Again, something goes wrong, you only have yourself to blame, insider-outsider status, and all of a sudden I thought, "Wait a minute. This isn't just multi-level marketing. This is evangelicalism, too."

So, where did these practices come from? And, and that's what brought me down all the, the rabbit holes. Um, but yes, as you, as you experienced once you left, the leaving is very difficult, and it is designed to be that way, very difficult, because you don't just leave your church. You leave your whole social circle.

You leave, as you say, the social capital that you had built up for 20 years, gone. But when you go into new spaces, you realize that wasn't normal, right? The whole world doesn't function that way, but again, the system is designed to be a closed system. It is designed that way so that you don't know any differently, and in fact, you're told that outside of this closed circle, this closed system, things are ugly, right? Unsafe, dangerous, evil. And then you step outside and you're like, "Wait, it's actually quite lovely out here." 

LaFonda: I'm personally curious, because this whole conversation about that feeling of it being transactional and pulling away and finding something different on the other side, I'm, I'm personally curious about- From you, Aimee, and, and, and from you, Kristin, as well, like how does that disconnect impact the other life points for you?

Like your family, your kids, like having to pull out of that system, that sounds both scary and rewarding once you, once you realize that like, oh, it's not scary over here, it's actually different in a good way. 

Aimee: Yeah. Well, for us, I, the way I talk about it is there was a period of incubation, and, um, it just so happened to, to, for me and my family specifically, to coincide with the pandemic. So we were sitting in the pandemic, and everybody's separated from people, but we had no people anymore. So this became a period of us kind of doing our own individual and family healing. 

But then i- it was always on the horizon that once people went back out into the world, we had no world to go back to. I didn't know how to start, and so there were two different things that I did. One was that I kept checking this local progressive bookstore to see when their book clubs were gonna open up again. And a few years later, I started going to a book club there, and I met the owner, and I told her this story about how that w- I didn't know who I wanted to be or what, who I was anymore, but I knew I wanted to be the kind of person that the people in that bookstore would like. And that woman grabbed me so hard in a hug, and she said, "Anything I can do for you," and to this day, she's one of my dearest friends and contacts in my political work. I have an event that I'm doing with her in September. 

But then the other piece of it, which also connects to this job, is I found a group of Democratic women that are all my mother's age who walked in the park once a week. And I was like, well, I didn't have a career at the time, so I was like, everyone else in my age is working, so I'm going. I'm walking with all these women, and I start telling them stories about my life, and their jaws are just on the floor. 

Kristin: Yeah. 

Aimee: And so they asked me, these were women who were really involved in the local Democratic party, and so they asked me to come to the Dem groups because they're like, "We don't think that people understand Christian nationalism."

Kristin: Right. 

Aimee: And so I started talking to these local Dem groups, and it was through that that somebody heard about Red Wine & Blue, and that they were looking for an organizer in my area, and it is through that women's walking group, the blue women's walking group, that I found this job. 

Kristin: I love that story. 

Aimee: So, like, it's interesting how, like, I didn't know where to start and develop a life, and the, this, that led me, both of those two little, like, Hail Marys out there, led me to the life that I live now. 

Kristin: I love that. Yeah. But it started by you doing something and talking, right? And, and asking, and, and pe- you will find your people eventually. I will say, too, to your question about, um, kind of children and f- uh, whole families, uh, some of the stories that I include, um, involve women and their husbands kind of walking this journey together- In beautiful ways, but that's not always the case. And so divorce is often a part of women's journey out, but not necessarily. 

And then when it comes to children, right, things are, are really tricky. I actually, at, in the intro to the book, I, I quote a woman named Marie, whom I met just last fall when I was speaking at, uh, a Lutheran conference in Wisconsin, and she introduced me with her mother. And they both had been immersed in this world, and her mother, Nancy, had raised her in this world. And then they both started deconstructing, and in part through Jesus and John Wayne. And h- to see their beautiful relationship on this side of things, and to see them able to talk about, you know, regret and apologies and still move forward together in, in a way that's more beautiful and more authentic, and it, it's just absolutely beautiful.

And that's not everybody's story, but it, it can be people's story in, in some cases. Which is to say, like, there's, there's a whole array of, you know... there's not one simple story of what happens when women decide to break free. Some women break free, um, kind of deconstruct, but stay in conservative churches, but in a new way. Some go to progressive churches or, or mainline churches, or some, um, leave the faith altogether. There is not one story, and yet there, there are these common experiences. 

The other thing I will say is women, especially I think some of the more perceptive ones are who are further along in their deconstruction or healing process, also grapple with their own complicity in the system, right? Because that's what women are trained to do and to be, and to draw other women in, girls, their own children, women in their church. And so I think some of the most beautiful reflections are from women who can both see the harm that was done to them, and also acknowledge their own complicity, but hold that with grace for themselves and for those around them. 

Aimee: Uh, when I was in my most fundie era, I was, uh, going to a church that was very mu- it was in Charlottesville, Virginia, and it was, um, focusing on college ministry. And so I would have all these college-aged women over to my home and be, like, this mentor figure to them.

And I'm still connected to a lot of those women on social media, and I just look at them now and I think, "Oh, thank God they didn't listen to me" Right? And I mean, I know they have seen my journey as well, so they know that where I've landed, but I have deep feelings of, of, like, “I am so glad that they were able to see something and, like, hold onto themselves in a way that I was unable to at that time in my life.” 

And, um, just one more thing about kids is, I talk about this a lot, that really what became a pivotal breaking point for me was, I'm sure you address some purity culture aspects in your book. 

Kristin: Oh, yes. 

Aimee: And, uh, watching the women who were my closest friends, the way that they weaponized their wounds of purity culture onto my daughter when she hit adolescence was such a make or break moment for me. Because all of a sudden it looked very different, the shame and the the horribleness of that in my, that I experienced looked very different when it was happening to her. 

And I confronted some of those women about that, and that is where the transactional nature of our relationship became revealed, because I was like, "No, my daughter is not responsible for your son's reaction to her existing," right? And, and I'm amazed that I came up with that at the time. But I did, like, and it became such a pivotal break in terms of the way that we saw the world, that I started to que- I mean, I had already been questioning a lot of things, but that, that was kind of like, it was a deal breaker. I was like, "I can't do this anymore." 

And all of a sudden I had to look back at my own life, my own, the little girl in me that had been put through that, and then say, "It wasn't okay when it was you either." 

Kristin: No, that's beautiful. Wow. Yeah, and, you know, purity culture has become almost a punchline, right? You know, oh, purity culture and, you know, the, the purity balls and so on. And frankly, when I started writing Live, Laugh, Love, since I'd already covered some of that in Jesus and John Wayne, I was like, "Ugh, do I have to do this again," right? It, it, what, what more could be said? 

And then when I took a closer look at it, I realized it's just, it is, it is so important to understand these dynamics and to understand the power of shame. And that sense of shame could then be used to control people, and not just the, not even primarily the control of “don't have sex,” because that, it doesn't actually work, right? We have the studies. The purity teachings didn't actually work in terms of abstinence being achieved, but it was very effective in cultivating a sense of deep shame.

Aimee: You know, you talked about how, you know, women are both oppressed and oppressors, you know? So you have these women that were hurt by the system who then, out of compulsion and, and, you know, conditioning, end up being the instruments of that hurt. And, and we won't even maybe get into all this, but certainly that was also the case in terms of racial, um, you know, just, you know, white women being in evangelical spaces, being, um, subjugated in this system but then also holding themselves higher. And so, you know, I, again, wrestled with all of that on exit. 

Kristin: Yes. I, I'm glad you brought up race, too, because the, the book is called The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made, and I've been asked, you know, "Well, why... You know, why, why focus on white women? You know, that seems kind of racist to do that."

And it's because I'm a cultural historian, and I'm looking at a culture produced by and for white Christians primarily, and white Christian women specifically. And I can, I can, I... In the book, I talk about the bookstores and how they, they keyed in on that demographic already in the '60s. White, middle-class, small town, and conservative women.

Aimee: Yeah, I mean, I, people say what, you know, whenever I talk about that I was in this movement and then I left it, they were like, "What was your gateway?" And I always say it was Black Christian women. That was my gateway out. I, I met Black Christian women, and I realized they had a completely different experience than I did within that space, and then all of a sudden I started asking too many questions, and I started to say, "If you lied to me about this, what else have you lied to me about?"

And I, I, I was literally kicked out of a church. I was kicked out of relationships. I was called up in front of people. And, and at the same time, I was, you know, finding this community out- w- that was kind of outside, but still tangentially connected. I always talk about that with you as I was like, "I don't know how she does this dance." Like, because you're clearly exposing, and also you've never, like, done a big loud exit either. Like, I don't, I don't even know if you even have exited. You know what I mean? 

Like, there's just this, this solidness of, you know, of values that I just... You know, I mean, I'm one of the people that have actually just walked away from, from the, the institutions altogether, and yet people like you give me a lot of hope For the possibility, uh, that there are still people that can hold on to that faith practice and have it be what it was, you know, i- i- its p- in its purest form, which is to love your neighbor as yourself. 

Kristin: Yeah, and I don't actually identify as, you know, deconstructor, deconstructionist myself in part because I grew up in a little subculture that was an immigrant community, Reformed, um, Dutch ethnic. My mom was an immigrant from the Netherlands, my dad a theology professor and ordained minister in a very small Reformed denomination.

And so while I did listen to Amy Grant and I shopped at my local Christian bookstore, you know, I, I, I had a foot in that world, but it was never the entirety of my world. And inside my tradition, I was introduced to a more expansive social justice version of the Reformed faith, a version that, that really emphasized shalom and pursuit of the common good. And that also emphasized, uh, yes, sin, but not a sin that was only out there. It was a sin that was in all of us, and not one that would be wielded primarily for shame, but give us a sense of humility. Look, you know, I could be wrong. I could be wrong in this, but, you know, gonna, gonna do my best and, and try to work for the goodness of creation, the goodness of everybody, whether, you know, i- not separating between pure and impure.

And if you read Live, Laugh, Love, you'll see little pieces of this, this theology popping up, that there is a kind of Christianity that I always inhabited, even if people in my community took it in a very different direction and are full-on MAGA. Like, for me, I feel like I'm still living in the tradition in which I kind of, you know, was raised and the faith that I came to call my own. And so I still cling to that, and even though I'm in the minority. I mean, I'm, I'm a Calvinist. I teach at Calvin University, and I've had, you know, Theo bros call me a bad Calvinist, which is a badge I wear with pride. I, I'm stubborn, and I maintain that they're the ones getting things wrong.

And, um, you know, numbers aren't necessarily in my favor right now, but, you know, there's a theological perspective for that, too, which is, you know, as a person of faith, I don't believe that God calls us to win, but God calls us to speak truth and to love our neighbors. And, and that's all we need to do, and so that's kind of a cure against burnout. Because if you're looking at results these days, you're gonna, you're gonna probably end up burned out pretty quickly. But we're just called to speak truth and to love our neighbors. 

LaFonda: Do you have any advice for anyone, for any of our listeners who might not be religious, who might not have that like you do to weather the stress right now? Do you have any advice for listeners who might not be religious but are looking for a way to sort of get through a day in 2026? 'Cause it's tough. 

Kristin: It is so tough. It is so tough. I'm doing all the practices, too, of, like, trying to work on my cortisol levels- Yeah ... and exercise and healthier eating and protein and lifting weights, which is good for women of, our age 

LaFonda: Our generation. Yeah. 

Kristin: Right? All of those things also good. Um, you know, a, a couple things I would say. First, um, I had a number of readers who read Jesus and John Wayne who were not from inside these spaces at all, knew very little about it except for, you know, when white evangelicals make the news, which is usually these days not in a, in a good way. 

They said almost paradoxically that book made them more sympathetic to evangelicals. It helped them understand the logic, the value system, and how people could get drawn in, which I thought was a beautiful reading of the book, actually, for people who were not inclined to be sympathetic. So, so again, education, knowing kind of what you're up against isn't just, like, knowing, you know, how to fight. It's having ultimately I think more empathy and more understanding, and then maybe being a little bit more strategic in how to fight. 

But then the other thing I think is it's just really helpful sometimes to know that you're not the crazy one, right? Because what, what we're dealing with is a, an entire system of morality that is turned on its head, that is defined according to loyalty to a particular ideology, not according to, you know, what it claims to be.

Again, love of neighbor, equality, compassion, empathy, right? Empathy has become a sin, toxic empathy inside these spaces. Like, you can see the deliberate strategies that they are employing to take virtue, which is, you know, not- Just Christian virtue, but to take goodness and to call it evil, and to take evil and, and call it good.

And it can be dizzying, it can be bewildering, and it can be extremely frustrating and make you just wanna lash out and, um, you know, and throw up your hands. But I have such faith in the power of truth and the power of understanding, and the better we can understand these dynamics, the, the, the more we can maintain our own sanity, composure, the more we can stand firmly where we stand, and ultimately, I think, have, have a level of empathy for others while also fine-tuning our strategy.

LaFonda: Well, thank you so much, Kristin, for joining us on the podcast today. It has been an absolute pleasure. This has been an amazing conversation between you and Aimee. I've learned so much, and I'm sitting here just, like, listening. 

Aimee: Well, I am fan-girling a little bit. I've, I've admired her for a really long time. Those PhD programs I was researching were in history, I was a history teacher at one point. And I... It is funny how you ended up there and I ended up where I ended up. 

Kristin: Well, and to be fair, also, I didn't have a boyfriend when I graduated from college. So what else was a girl to do except go get a PhD?

Aimee: I did meet my husband at 18. That kinda set me on a course. 

Kristin: There you go. That's the real difference. 

LaFonda: Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much, Kristin. Where can people find your book? 

Kristin: Uh, Live, Laugh, Love is available as of September 15 everywhere. So your favorite local bookstore is always the best place, and you can find me, um, on Substack as well at Du Mez Connections, and everywhere on social media.  

Aimee: And my book group is resuming to do your book in September. 

Kristin: I can't wait! Let me know how it goes! . 

Aimee: We’ll see how many years it takes us to get through it this time. 

Kristin: Maybe a couple more, 'cause this one's a… It's got an extra chapter in there. 

Aimee: It's a doozy. 

Kristin: It's a doozy. 

LaFonda: Thank you, Kristin. 

Aimee: Thank you!

Kristin: Thank you so much.