Rest is Productive (with "Anti-Career Coach" Danielle Roberts)

While presenting at TED Democracy last month, Katie Paris met a fellow presenter named Danielle Roberts. Danielle calls herself an "anti-career coach" and is all about dealing with burnout, finding a better balance, and how to follow our passion. Katie had such great conversations with her at TED that we knew we needed to bring Danielle to the pod to share those conversations with our community.

And Danielle didn't disappoint! She gave some valuable advice about how we can feel more fulfilled in our work and tools to re-evaluate whether we should be doing another kind of work entirely! And her advice isn't limited to traditional jobs with a 40-hour workweek -- it can apply to parenting, volunteering, relationships, or anything else in our life that we care about deeply but can burn us out.

Danielle was an amazing balance point between our resident workaholic Katie and our self-care advocate LaFonda. Whether you work full-time, you're retired, your activism is your work, your family is your work, or anything in between, there's something for everyone to learn from Danielle's wisdom.

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

HTNLYS E45

Katie: Hi, everyone. Welcome to How to Not Lose Your Shit. I'm Katie Paris, the founder of Red Wine and Blue. 

LaFonda: And I'm LaFonda Cousin, a part-time yoga instructor, self-care advocate, and the chief people officer here at Red Wine and Blue. 

Katie: I am so glad to be back on the podcast with you, LaFonda.

LaFonda: Welcome back. Welcome back, Katie. I missed you. 

Katie: So I was away, like, a Friday and then a whole week and a Monday. And it felt really long. I read three and a half novels. 

LaFonda: What? 

Katie: I read some of these pages whilst in a hammock. 

LaFonda: You know it's serious when you used whilst. 

Katie: I have no idea why I said that! 

LaFonda: I love it!

Katie: I just think it was amazing to me, like, on vacation with my children no less, but, you know, lots of other family members too who were, uh, game to play, that I, that I would get to just chill in a hammock without even- I mean, half the time even without a child, like jumping on top of me. So it was really good to get away.

It was really good actually to give my mind that structure of something else to focus on, just like, these were beach reads, okay? These were not political memoirs. These were not how-to books. I gotta keep it up.It helped me sleep, you know, just reading, going to bed reading. 

LaFonda: I am so happy for you!

Katie: Yes. Um, so that is advice that you have given before, and I took it. 

LaFonda: I am so glad that you got this time away, and I am glad that you took it and took the downtime and were in a hammock. I can say that I am very, very proud of you- 

Katie: Aw ... 

LaFonda: – for, like, really, really disconnecting and getting some, some time away. I'm very proud of you for that. 

Katie: Well, it's certainly relevant to this podcast today. Our guest is Danielle Roberts. She is the anti-career coach, which I think is a pretty amazing title. And one of her core principles is that rest is productive, and I think that's really counterintuitive, at least for me. 

And it, it, it just helps me see not just the, like, on/off switch that, like, okay, off means I'm not doing, I'm not creating value in my life and for others, that actually this is a productive thing to do in terms of for myself but who I wanna be and how I wanna show up in the world. And I really felt that. I really felt that in terms of I think that time in the hammock was productive. In fact, I, I think I need to go back right now. Okay, instead we're gonna do a podcast. 

LaFonda: We're gonna keep working, but that's okay. 

Katie: Yeah. Okay, so Danielle is-- I met her at TED Democracy last month. 

LaFonda: Mm-hmm. 

Katie: We were both giving talks. Mine will drop on ted.com, um, I think around September, a little after Labor Day. I'm super excited to share it with the world. Has so much to do with my story, with Red Wine & Blue’s story. 

And Danielle is one of the other speakers I met, and I just knew I wanted to have her on the podcast because she has, I think, just really important ideas about the intersection of life and work, whether that work is, you know, volunteering or a traditional job.

And when we think about how to engage in this world in this moment, which is hard work, and how to do it in a way without losing your shit, I think that she has so much valuable advice, and I also just really appreciate her story. So I met her when all the speakers got together. We sat next to each other at the speaker dinner. I got to know her story, she got to know mine, and you know when you just, like, click with another woman, like, how cool and special that is. 

She will share her story, but we had a pretty wild time together. Not only just as speakers, but also TED had us do this thing they called the Idea Knockdown series where we played Jenga competitively against each other and, like, each block you had to answer a question about, like, democracy or life work and all this.And so, um, it was pretty ridiculous, but she, uh, was a lot of fun to do it with her. 

LaFonda: Soon as you guys started talking, she definitely felt like someone that you would click with immediately, that energy immediately there.

Katie: Why? What makes you say that?

LaFonda: I don't know. It just felt like, yes, this is definitely someone that if they sat together, this is a Katie person. Like, this is, this is someone that Katie would mesh with immediately. You just had the same just sort of energy, and I liked her immediately. 

So I just, I don't know. I could talk to her for a really long time. I have so many questions for her about just, like, you know, we've been talking about this a lot over the last couple weeks about, like, what it means for us to be leaders at Red Wine & Blue, but also, like, protect, I think, productivity, but also protect people, and what it means to create that, that balance of, like, getting shit done, but making sure people take care of themselves. And, like, what is that perfect place for people to live in the work?

And so she's just got so many great thoughts on balance and productivity and what it means to live in the work today, right, in modern times. Um- It's just a, it's just a really great conversation, and I f- I feel like I could talk to her forever, so I need to know when her TED Talk comes out 'cause I need to listen to hers.

Katie: I will absolutely let you know. Um, yes, I love what she said about everything that you just described in terms of rejecting the binary. 

LaFonda: Yeah. 

Katie: That this is not like choosing between care and productivity. I actually think if that's how we're looking at it, we're doing it wrong. You know, we need to, as we get shit done together, we need to do it in a way that we are caring for each other. That we are showing up for each other, that we are asking for help when we need it, that we are being real about how we really are. Yeah. That we are creating the conditions together, creating the culture together-- 

LaFonda: Yeah ... 

Katie: – that is an environment in which we can get the most shit done. And I see that happen again and again. I, I know we do our best work when we are really in our flow in terms of not just as individuals, but as, you know, as a team, working and supporting each other. And that's how I think about our community, too. So, so much here to dig into, so relevant, and I can't wait to hear what others think. So make sure to give us your feedback, y'all! Let's bring on Danielle. 

Hey, Danielle. Thanks for joining us! 

Danielle: Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be here. 

Katie: I loved meeting you in Philadelphia. It was, like, a real highlight for me at TED Democracy. I didn't know what it would be like to meet the other speakers, what to expect. Was it surprising to you, kind of, what it was like meeting the others? 

Danielle: Yeah. I loved just the energy in the room. Everyone brought such a different perspective, so I feel like the conversations were super energetic. And I was nervous walking into the day because it's such a big event. You don't know what to expect.

But I loved that we sat down next to each other during the speaker dinner, and we did our idea knockdown challenge together, and it was such a pleasure meeting you and getting to converse about so many important topics that are top of mind for the workforce and workers and people who really pour all of themselves into their craft. Um, so yeah, it was an invigorating day, and I'm so honored to have been a part of it. 

Katie: The thing that struck me about the speakers in general, and definitely was true about you, is that everyone was so curious, like, about each other, you know? I mean, there was just so many moments where it was like, "Wait, what? No, tell me more. Tell me everything," you know? I think that we did that with each other. 

Danielle: Yeah. Agreed. I loved, too, how everyone coming into the day, like, with such… like, Founding Futures is the topic, right? And we're all thinking about 250 years of American democracy and the vision that we wanna paint for the next 250 years. And it's so heavy on everyone's mind of just looking at everything happening and struggling to feel hope. 

And I think being able to extend each other that curiosity and hear everyone's vision for how to get from here to there, like, how to actually implement these action steps to create a hopeful future for us, that, that was, like, one of my biggest takeaways, is walking away with hope when I feel like it was a little bit hard to come by, right, walking into that day, um, or just navigating the day-to-day of living in this country.

Katie: Yeah. I especially connected in that way and felt that energy among the women who were speakers, by the way, too, because, like, there was just a certain relatability that, like, I feel like some of us, and by some of us, I mean all the women, who were like, "How are you doing? Are you what..." And, and, and we would just look at each other and be like, "I'm so nervous. I'm worried I'm gonna mess up. I don't know, like, how did I even get here?" You know? And I just didn't get that energy from the men, but oh my God, did the women actually crush it on stage.

Danielle: Leave it to women to get shit done. 

Katie: So I loved it. We, we did get to sit next to each other at that first speaker dinner, which was a really pretty magical night, and your personal story really stuck with me, you know?

Because you are an anti-career coach. I love that. But you weren't always. That wasn't, like, what you set out to become in your career. So what made you start to question your relationship with work, your relationship with burnout? 

Danielle: Yeah. Oh man, so many things. It's been a decade-long plus unfolding. 

I am one of five kids. I'm second oldest, and, um, my mom got sick when I was really young. When I was, like, 10 or 11, she got diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, so I took on a leadership role, if you will, from a very young age. And I poured a lot of myself into school and sports and high achieving because that is something that I felt like I could control, and it's when I got a lot of positive feedback from the caregivers in my life.

So, um, I graduated top of my high school class, top of my college class, had a job lined up right after graduation, and was like, "You know what? I'm gonna follow the steps to success. I'm gonna climb the ladder and I am gonna be happy." And when I was 23, um, my mom wound up getting really sick and passed away after only nine weeks, and I found myself back at my desk after three days of bereavement leave. 

And I was in agency, so 60-plus hours a week were the norm. Working hard, playing hard was the norm. Like, you were friends with your coworkers. It was just work all of the time. And I found myself back at my desk just, like, looking around, and everyone's operating like normal, and my internal worldview had changed, but I didn't know what to do with myself. And no one really teaches you how to process grief, so I threw myself into, like, the only thing that I felt like I could control, which was just to keep on working. 

And that's really what I did until 2021. Um, I had moved 1,000 miles away from all of my friends and my family, and I got laid off a month later. And I, again, found myself at this crossroads of, “well, I can keep switching jobs, switching companies, trying to find this happiness that I'm looking for in this next role, this next paycheck, whatever, or I can really sit with myself and say, like, "What am I doing?" Like, I keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, and ask myself some different questions about how work feels, why I'm making the decisions that I'm making.

So I looked at my career path and I said, like, "What are the highs and lows? Like, what, where have I come alive? Where do I feel like my values have been suppressed?" And I started doing career coaching as just, like, my very first start of business because I had a background in marketing, I worked in higher education and ed tech. So, like, I saw how we marketed to students to find your dream job, and then I saw 10-plus years into your career, why people were so burnt out and disengaged, and what made them want to switch career paths. So I said, "What value can I offer here?" And as I had my first clients, the general sentiment that I kept hearing was, like, "I am burnt out, I am disengaged.

I've followed these steps similar to my, myself, and like, I don't think there is a such thing as a dream job anymore, because if it's not meeting our most basic needs, like we're not being able to pay our bills, and we're being told to find fulfillment in this thing, like, what is going on? So I was like, you know what? Maybe it's like anti-career coaching. So that's kinda how that was born of my personal brand. We have been, like, redecorating a house with a deteriorated foundation when it comes to our workforce. 

LaFonda: This is all speaking to me. It's incredibly interesting to me. 

Katie: LaFonda is so on fire for this right now. 

LaFonda: So tell me what it means right now for you, with all of that information, what does it mean right now to redefine work? What does it mean for people to find... We hear “work-life balance, find the work-life balance,” and Katie knows this. I'm someone who's like, you don't find balance. It's not a real thing. You have to create it. So what does it mean to redefine work and create balance? 

Danielle: Yes, great question. And I wanna speak to, like, that work-life balance piece first, because I agree with you that it doesn't, it doesn't really exist. Because we work how many years of our lives to enjoy, like, how many at the end? And we work a, a disproportionate amount of our week and have, like, our weekends. So, like, balance isn't really built into how our workplace is designed to begin with. Um, so to build this more human-first future of work, I think it starts with reframing how we think about work on a fundamental level and understand how the workplace is designed, right?

We're, we're taught that success equals money, success equals productivity, success equals loyalty and sacrifice. These are all definitions of success that were put into place by men, white men that, uh, we are still operating on fundamentally. The 9:00 to 5:00 was never designed with women's bodies in mind.

We are operating off of a premise from, that from 100 years ago that was built for the assembly line. So I think it, it's important to reframe around that. Otherwise, we're, like, just operating on autopilot with how we're showing up in the workplace. There are three things that drive our intrinsic motivation that keep people showing up to work outside of the money.

It is choice or the need for autonomy; craftsmanship, the need for learning, growth, and mastery; and community, which is the need for belonging. So I think when we reframe how we show up in the workplace around those three things, we start to get our sense of agency back, get our sense of purpose back, and we show up to work because it fulfills us and it's not just for the money.

So that's kinda how I frame my work around those three key pillars. 

Katie: How does this relate, Danielle, you know, in the Red Wine and Blue community, um, so many women have... are, you know, are, are working and then also trying to integrate some sort of activism or participation in their local community into their lives, right?

It's not just, like, work and life. Like, where does that fall? Where does volunteer work that is feeling very missional and purposeful and, and, uh, and values-aligned, like, where does that fit in even in this whole work-life balance? And how do we become these, you know, this mythical balance that we're all seeking?

Danielle: Yeah. It, it's more integration, right? It's not, like, an either/or, like I either have this balance or I don't. And I think specifically for work in mission-driven fields, values-driven fields, nonprofit, politics, like, we find so much of our identity in what we do. Like, when I had my layoff, I almost had an identity crisis because work was, like, my only thing.

It is where it r- I derived my sense of self-worth. So when I didn't have that, I was like, “Oh shit. Like, what do I do? What do I do now? I don't have these communities outside of work, this sense of belonging that I can look forward to, that can give me a reason to log off.” And this is something that I still struggle with to this day because, like, I care so much about leaving a world behind that is, you know, positive and something that I can be proud of.

And you and I talked about this during our ideas knockdown challenge, in that rest is productive, right? We, we don't look at it that way. We view as like, when I have time, if I am not doing something, if I am not being productive, then I am somehow worthless, and that is not the truth. When we care about our work, the rest piece and the joy piece is what makes our work sustainable. It's what keeps us showing up. So it's not like, “do I have to give all of myself or none of myself?” It's, “no, how do I view the things that I care about outside of work as key pillars to keep me showing up for what I care about long-term over time?” Because if I'm just giving all of myself to this one area, I'm gonna burn out. 

And then there's a, there's a concept called the, the feather, the brick, the truck, and it's like, if, if you're starting to feel burnout, you're gonna start to feel this tickle of a feather, and it's gonna be, you know, your, your intuition, whatever, your health reminding you that like, "Hey, something's a little off here. Maybe I'm getting headaches. Maybe I'm, like, not sleeping as well." 

If you ignore the feather long enough, you're gonna get a brick that hits you across the head. Maybe it is, you're out of work for a week. And then if you ignore the brick long enough, you're gonna get hit with a Mack truck, and that can be an autoimmune disease for women. That can be, like, so many different things that put you out for a really long period of time. 

So how can we treat ourselves with that kindness and that compassion throughout our lives, throughout our days to make that more sustainable? 

LaFonda: Danielle, what do you say to someone who's already starting from that place of burnout, though? What do you say to someone who's already in that place of like, "I'm overwhelmed right now in this situation," and like, the creating balance in and of itself feels overwhelming. 

Katie: Felt the feather, ignored the feather. 

Danielle: Yes. Yes. I've ignored the feather many, many times. So, um, I think it's returning to these three Cs, right? Your choice, your craftsmanship, your community. 

So when you look at choice, within your workday, do, are you, do you have a say in how the work is getting done? Like, where do you not have a say? So you can start rearranging some things. Craftsmanship. You're not gonna be able to really access craftsmanship when you are burnt out because you are just focusing on survival. Like, you need to be able to access flow for that. And then community is something that you really need to lean on when you are burnt out. Like, where can I outsource, delegate, or automate some of the shit that I have going on? 

And I also think, and I feel like I get a little bit of a look when I say this, is as women, I think we need to let some plates drop. You know, we, we talk about like, oh, we just need to set some boundaries, or we just need to like manage our time, or do... It's like we, we teach other people how to treat us, right? And if we are constantly spinning all of our plates, then the people in our lives are gonna be like, "Oh, okay. She's got it. She's gonna be able to get this stuff done."

I think sometimes we need to let some of the less important stuff that is not gonna be as mission critical drop to say like, "I can't handle it. I might need the resour- more resources to get this done." So we have to ask ourselves some questions about Where we have choice and agency in our work, like where do we have a say in how things get done?

Um, who can we lean on for help? And then what can we say no to in the interim to at least get ourselves back to a baseline? Because when we're burnt out, like we need rest, whether that's in work or out of work, like what can we say no to, and how can we speak up to the people in our lives to let them know where we are mentally, emotionally, physically?

Because we also have this culture of individualism, right? Where it's like if you're burnt out, it's a you problem, it's a personal failing or a professional weakness, and that's not the case. It's a systemic design flaw. So I think it, it's not just a problem that we have to sort out ourselves. It's something that we need to talk about candidly with the people in our lives to say, "This is how I'm feeling. How can you help? How can I help myself?" Because it's also not just a workload issue. Like we think of burnout as “my workload exceeds my resources.” Uh, that's a huge part of it, but it's also “I feel undervalued, I feel unheard, my resources and my skills are being underutilized. I feel like I don't have a sense of purpose.”

So what type of burnout is it, and then what type of resources do you need to get out of that period of burnout? 

Katie: I love this. It feels so relevant, not only to, well, any kind of work, any kind of labor, you know? It feels relevant to parenting. It feels relevant to volunteering in your community. It feels, 'cause it ultimately, it's that sense of being able to, you know, have freedom and agency, you know, over the things that we want to engage in, but we want to feel like are worth our time.

You know, this is so important to me in terms of how we engage our members, our volunteers, you know? And I love the idea of asking ourselves and everyone in our community these, these sorts of questions. 'Cause ultimately it feels like it's unlocking something to make the work feel generative, you know, as opposed to just depleting, which feels like a real emergency right now because the world is asking so much of us, too much, and is so depleting.

And so we have to be... It feels important and maybe even essential and revolutionary, you know, to take this counter-cultural approach and to show up for each other in a way that is different than how the world is showing up for us right now, honestly. 

Danielle: And I think that's important about the work that you do, because a lot of what is expected of us drains our life force, right? Drains our energy, contributes to this burnout. But when you are engaging locally or volunteering, these are things that also give us energy back and hope back to make us realize that we are not alone in our struggles. So sometimes, like, "Oh man, I have to add another thing on my to-do list. I have to get out and volunteer, and, like, that's gonna be so hard."

But when you do, like, you're, you're almost like, "This is rewarding. Why didn't I do this sooner?" 

Katie: It gives you energy back. 

Danielle: It does. 

Katie: But then, like, for someone like me, I'm like, "It gives me energy back, so I've gotta go so hard all the time  'cause I gotta give my energy and get the energy back. And so, and then that's where my brain totally forgets the part about how rest is productive.

Mm. And there is not a limitless well of that, you know, the resources that I can give and get out of that kind of engagement. I think I tell, I tell myself it's, it's unlimited, but I think maybe it's not. 

LaFonda: No, we're not machines. 

Katie: What? 

LaFonda: I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw my friend Katie under the bus here real, real quick. I, I do it a lot when it comes to rest. She knows that. So, um, so we've got people like Katie who push themselves really, really hard all the time because we, like, we're in this, we're in this world where your passion is also your job, and we hear this often in our work, right? I hear it all the time, um, from the people who work here, like, "I would be doing this anyway," right? "I'm just lucky enough to get paid for it." 

But then there's also this trend among, um, younger people who… they're only gonna put in as much as they need to. Like, tale as old as time, right? Like, we've heard that generation after generation after generation, this idea that, like, young people don't wanna work these days. And I actually don't disagree with, like, taking your time and doing what you need to do and taking your PTO and, like... 

So what is the balance? Because we do see that shift happening where people are like, "I am actually not going to work until I burn out. I'm actually not going to let all my PTO sit in a bank and never take it. I'm actually not going to work myself to death." Um, and I can appreciate that. So what is the balance of, like, working in your passion, knowing you're gonna be doing it all the time, and that shift to taking care of yourself? How do we meet in the middle? 

Danielle: Yeah. Well, I think that it starts with these conversations across generations, right? Like you said, generation after generation we hear “nobody wants to work anymore.” Like, “Gen Z is lazy and entitled,” and it's... Like, think about what they've seen, right? They saw their, their parents be loyal to a job for 25 years to get laid off. Like, my dad just, uh, retired after 40 years in tile and marble, and they gave him a pin.

And the first thing he needs is, is knee surgery, right? Like, he needs two new knees because he was on his hands and knees for 40 years and inhaling, like, crazy chemicals. Like, he sacrificed his health and his body and, like, he's hurting now. He's not gonna be able to enjoy his retirement. So I think, um- There's a lot of resentment and projection for younger generations to be like, "Oh, you're setting boundaries that I wish that I knew that I could."

And I think as leaders, it's our job to listen to the world that they want to build. And working less hours or not working as hard doesn't mean less results for business, right? Like, the research shows when you build these human-centered principles of, of rest into infrastructure and giving people autonomy and helping them learn and grow and giving them a sense of belonging, it actually makes our work more successful.

So it's not like how do we create balance and do our mo- uh, and pour ourselves into this passion, values-driven work. It's a both/and, because human-centered organizations are 23% more profitable. The data shows us that. So I think it's not having a blanket statement of, "This is how it's gonna work." It's what is important to you, why, and how does this serve where you wanna go next in your career, in your life, and how can I help you get there?

Some people wanna show up because it is a paycheck. That is okay. Some people wanna show up because it is their passion, and that is okay. Like, as long as you are clear on what your values are. Like Katie, I, I know how passionate you are about this work. Like, does this make you happy? 

Katie: Are you asking me, like in real time?

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah, this work does make me happy. 

Danielle: Wonderful. Like, there's, there's nothing wrong with being passionate about your job. I am super passionate about my work, and I have this balance all the time of like, okay, anti-career coach, work-life balance, anti-hustle culture, and I am showing up and working really hard in this job because, like, I, I know that people need to hear this and, and need resources to feel like they have control back.

So to answer your question, LaFonda, I know this is like a really roundabout way of saying it, it, it, there's no one-size-fits-all answer. It, it is having these conversations and making a place for them in our workdays and not just like, "I have to show up and this is how the work gets done." 

It's how is the work getting done? Why is it getting done this way? Is there a way to do it better? What is your vision for this? And just, like, creating more space for that and slowing down enough to create space for that. Because a lot of what we think is, like, productive is actually now working against us, and I think the answer is actually in slowing down to having these conversations.

Katie: Hmm. Danielle, I would love to hear some practical advice from you, maybe based on your own... Like, I'm sitting here thinking she, she, you are like me. We're both passionate about what we do and wanna get that message out and feel an urgency around that. Okay, but, like, so I'm just gonna put it to you straight, personal.

Like- How do you limit yourself, though? Like, do you, I know that you believe that rest is productive, so, like, do you have to schedule it in your d- like how, what, what is some practical advice you have for those of us who do feel passionate about work, probably push ourselves too hard, to get to that better place?

Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great question. 

So on a values level, one of the first things that I did for myself when I was feeling super burnt out was a highs and lows audit, and I looked back at, I think, back to like high school, and I mapped out my career, what the highs and lows were. And like, okay, at the high points, what values were being expressed and suppressed? What skills and strengths was I using, or what was sitting on a shelf? What was the quality and the dynamic of my relationships at the highs and the lows? 

And I tried to look for the patterns across, like, 15 years of just content and being involved, and it was actually, like embarrassing how, like, obvious it was because I was like, "What do I wanna do with my life?" And like all... And I looked and I was like, “oh wait, no, these, this is what I need.” At my highs, I was doing storytelling and writing and working in smaller teams and with stakeholders, and at my lows, I was using, like, a lot of tools and a lot of technologies behind a screen. 

And then I looked at my career, I was like, oh, I think I'm in the wrong career path, like entirely. So I started to, like, make some decisions from that. I started having conversations with people who I admired or who I was jealous and envious of, of like, they seem like they have a life that I want, and I asked them questions about their path, their mistakes. Just started to, like, information gather about myself.

I think a lot of people are like, "I'm burnt out. I need to burn my entire life to the ground." Sometimes that can benefit you, but most times you can make some small adjustments at, that have a profound impact on your day. So like, on a macro level, that is one of the biggest things that I did to change my perception of myself and how I was showing up in my career. 

On a micro level, in my weeks, I also kinda did a highs and lows audit to track my energy patterns because we're not machines, right? 9:00 to 5:00, my 9:00 a.m. and my 3:00 p.m. looks different than both of yours, I imagine, because we have different life circumstances outside of work. Like, I might be bringing my grief and my bereavement into the workplace. Somebody might be bringing a divorce. Some people have kids, and they're running around, and they don't get that rest and sustenance on the weekend. So we have to map out what our energy patterns are. Do I have specific draining tasks throughout the week that, like, still have to get done? What can I do before and after those things to maybe bring up my energy levels a little bit?

For me, practically, that looks like I hate doing my accounting every single month, and my accountant yells at me 'cause I was, like, procrastinating every single month, but it's something that has to get done, right? We're not gonna love every single part of our jobs. It's work. So I was like, all right, this is something that I can't just, like, not do, unfortunately. So I started taking myself to a coffee shop, and I got a latte and a croissant- 

Katie: Smart! 

Danielle: - while I did my accounting. 

Katie: Yep. 

Danielle: Same task, completely different energy. And I started looking forward to that. That could also look like a walk outside on a nice day while taking, like, your, a phone call, like, now we live in the world of Zoom. Bring back conference calls. Bring back phone calls where we're not just, like, looking at ourselves and, like, so tuned in, right? Like, will that walk sustain your energy levels during a particularly draining meeting? Can you redesign your days to maximize your, your time or your energy levels? So those are a few, a few tactics that I've used.

Katie: Really good. Those are really good. 

LaFonda: So helpful. I heard you say, like, some people want to burn down their entire lives, right? Like, they might do that high-low audit, and they're like, "I really don't like any of this shit, actually. Like, I'm in this job…" Let's just say something that, like, wouldn't work for me 'cause I hate spreadsheets and numbers, right? Like, “I'm an accountant, and I actually don't love this at all. I want to do something that actually, like, speaks to my spirit. Maybe I wanna go, like, work with animals or whatever.” I'm making all of this up as I go, right? And I actually do want to burn down everything and start over. 

But that is super scary, and we know that sometimes people's identity is tied to a role, a title, the salary, the optics, the fill in the blank, right? What do you say to that person that is in that place of, like, auditing their lives, and they don't wanna spend maybe the next 10, 15, 20 years of their lives doing something they really don't love, that isn't really bringing them joy, but also their identity is tied to a title, but they don't really love the work?

Danielle: Yeah. That's a great question, and I'm reminded of one of the clients that I work with. Um, she was an accountant, and she worked in the oil and gas industry in Texas –  

LaFonda: Sorry, client! That wasn't intentional!

Danielle: No, no. She's, she's great. She's thriving. Um, she worked in that industry for 10 plus years, and it was… She's a woman in a male-dominated field working in accounting and just, like, did not love it, and when we mapped her highs and lows, I noticed this, like, pattern of she really liked the details. She was just applying it to, like, the wrong things. 

She wound up transitioning into event planning, and now she's an event planner and she loves it. But what she did was, like, you, you take... I call it, like, microdosing the experience because our brain is wired for survival, not happiness. We are always going to choose the pain of a familiar hell over, like, an unfamiliar heaven, because that's, like, literally just how we're wired. 

Katie: Oh, our brains are so mean that way.

Danielle:  So mean. So mean. But it's, yeah, for all the advancements that we've had in our physiology and all that kind of... Like, we are, we are just baseline creatures of just, like, very, very primitive of like, okay, fear bad. So when we are afraid of, like, that future, Kelsey and I did this, my client, uh, there's a fear setting exercise.

Uh, Tim Ferriss, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, he wrote, uh, The 4-Hour Workweek. He did a TED actually on this, and he... Instead, it says, "Instead of mapping out your goals, mapping out, map out your fears." So like, what are you afraid of coming true in this scenario? Like, “okay, I quit this job, I quit this career path that has been my identity, and everything falls apart. I lose everything. I lose my house, my relationship, my car. I don't know who I am. I become unhoused. Like, all of these different things.” Then you define, okay, what can I do to prevent that from coming true? And then if that were to come true, what would be the steps that I took to get myself out of that? And I think that helps really break down the fear, gives you your sense of agency back of like, “oh, okay, the likelihood of that all happening is unlikely, but I already have a plan if it does come true.” 

And then microdosing the experience of finding people in the paths that you have a sense of curiosity about, like you don't have to have it all figured out in one shot, and having conversations with people who are on those paths to talk about, like what are the pros and the cons?

What do you wish that you knew when you first set out on this path? What mistakes did you make? And start to like just gather that information, use it all as data, and then like gauge your sense of aliveness along the, the different paths. I would not advise anybody quits their job right now with this economy.

It is trash, and the job market is trash. But like Kelsey, she took on a, a part-time job during the weekends to like start seeing if she liked event planning, and that transitioned into a full-time role, right? And then she was able to leave. So like she was able to break down her fears into these micro moments and test if she actually liked this before blowing up her entire life transitioning and then six month in being like, "Oh, shoot," like "this is not what I expected at all."

You can make more informed decisions just by taking one step at a time, one baby step at a time. You don't have to have your entire life figured out overnight. Life rarely goes 100% according to plan. If anybody told me that I would be here doing what I'm doing even five years ago, I'd be like, "You're lying."

So kind of just like trust, trust the unfolding too. I know that's like a lot to like answer your question. I don't know if I answered your question, 

Katie: I've never heard of microdosing the experience. I feel like there's a lot of applications for that. It's so cool. I love it. 

Danielle, I am so glad that you are doing the thing that you never thought you'd be doing five years ago, much less 10 or 15. It is... I'm so excited about the gift that you're offering the world, you know? And thank you for sharing so much of this with us, this practical advice. 

I do wanna amend… You know, you asked me earlier, am I happy? And I said yes, and that is true. But I have a brain just like everybody else does that tricks me into, you know, acting on, on fear, obsessing on the things that I'm worried about. And I do not bring enough intention to finding those flow states and protecting my time so that I can, I can find that. I am absolutely guilty of the, "Oh, I can multitask. I'm so good at multitasking." You know, which is a myth, and you're teaching me that again. 

Danielle, I know that people are just gonna wanna follow you and learn more about your work, so can you share with our listeners how to do that?

Danielle: Yes, absolutely. So you can find me across socials at IamDanielleRoberts. Um, or if you want me to bring in to, uh, speak to your organization, to your leaders, you can find speaking information and booking information at danielleroberts.co.

Katie: Get it, woman. I love it. 

Danielle: Thank you for this. This was such a pleasure being on, and I, I miss you already.

Katie: I'm gonna have to come out to Ohio to visit. Watch out. Be back in that Philly area before you know it. 

Danielle: Yes! 

LaFonda: I love it.