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Ops Cast, by MarketingOps.com, is a podcast for Marketing Operations Pros by Marketing Ops Pros. Hosted by Michael Hartmann, Mike Rizzo & Naomi Liu
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The Hidden Cost of Your Martech Stack with Gaurav Palande
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Your GTM tech stack is probably costing you more than you think.
Not because of software licenses alone, but because of underused tools, overlapping platforms, broken processes, and hidden revenue leakage that quietly compounds over time.
In this episode of Ops Cast, Michael Hartmann sits down with Gaurav Palande, founder of Prune and a marketing and sales operations leader with more than 15 years of experience, to explore a different way of evaluating technology investments.
The conversation explores how organizations can measure the business value of their GTM technology, identify hidden inefficiencies, uncover revenue leakage, and make smarter decisions about AI investments before difficulty spirals out of control.
Topics covered include:
• Why tech stack value matters more than tech stack cost
• A practical framework for evaluating GTM technology investments
• Common sources of waste, duplicate spend, and underutilized platforms
• How neglected systems and broken processes contribute to revenue leakage
• Where AI creates genuine value and where it simply adds complexity
• How to approach the growing "buy vs. build" decision in the age of AI
Whether you're managing a handful of platforms or an enterprise-scale ecosystem, this episode offers practical guidance for turning your tech stack from a cost center into a measurable business asset.
Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Ops Cast, and join the conversation at MarketingOps.com.
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Michael Hartmann
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by marketingops.com, powered by all the MoPros out there. I am your host, Michael Hartman, flying solo again, despite the last episode. ↔ All right, so today I’m joined by Gaurav Palande. Gaurav, I should have asked you how to pronounce your name. I hopefully I didn’t totally butcher it, but he’s the founder of Prune, and he’s a longtime operator with more than 15 years in marketing ops and sales ops. ↔
Gaurav has been building a framework to help companies answer a question that sounds simple, but most organizations can’t clearly answer. And I know it’s one that I’ve never really thought about, which is what is your go-to-market tech stack actually worth? • Not what it costs, or not at least not just what it costs, but what value it creates, • where there’s waste, where there’s overlap, where revenue may be leaking because of neglected systems, poor processes, tools nobody fully understands anymore, it so on. ↔ And in a world where AI is creating even more tools, more spin, more complexity. ↔ •
↔ and spend this sometimes hidden. ↔ • that question matters more than ever. So today he and I are going to unpack how ops leaders can think more strategically about their stack, • where AI fits, ^^ how to find hidden opportunities before they become expensive problems. So • let’s kick it off Gaurav, welcome. How do I do on pronouncing your name?
Gaurav
No, you did it well, Mike. Thank you. • That’s gotta go-of. I’ll get all kind of names, pronunciation. • As long as I’m responding, you’re all good. •
Michael Hartmann
No.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, so for for those of you listening or watching ^^ full transparency, we have struggled with some technical challenges to get this one off the ground. ^^ And I completely forgot to do my duty of asking how to pronounce his name. So • shame on shame on me. ^^ but I’m glad we got it going. I’m I’m glad we were able make this work. And ^^ • gruff, so like I already mentioned in this you’ve spent 15 plus years in ops ^^ and you recently started this • company called Prune. •
Like what was the driver behind that? What were you trying like what’s a problem you were trying to solve? • •
The Value of Go-To-Market Tech Stacks
01:52
Gaurav
Yeah, ^^ so first of all thank you for having me here, Mike. ^^ why I started prune, I’ll give you a little bit of a context. ^^ I’ve been in the marketing op, sales ops • space and roles for the last 15 plus years • and I’ve always
Yeah, ^^ so first of all thank you for having me here, Mike. ^^ why I started
prune, I’ll give you a little bit of a context. ^^ I’ve been in the marketing op,
sales ops ^ spaced roles for the last 15 plus years ^ and I’ve always been
responsible for at least buying or influencing any technology purchase, ^
renewing it or even cutting it for that matter. ^ for example, before every
contract ^ renewal, my leaders would reach out and ask me ^ just if
The investment in all these go-to-market tools. ^ So I would be the person
who they reach out, I nwould be the person who would justify, I would be the
person who would work with finance, IT, ^ the tool operators, and understand ^
the value of that tool that’s driving ^ the investment. ^ And then I would
prepare that documentation. This was one of ^ hard work that we would do.
Now imagine doing it for multiple tools. I would be part of that exercise. ^
And based on all ^ bringing their invoices and renewal ^ contracts at the end ^ and ^ what
would happen we would end up renewing but there was a lot of ^ last minute
activities that we would be involved in •
I noticed this across different companies that I’ve worked at. I have noticed
this across my peer group as well, that there is ^ at least 10 to 14 tools in
their stack ^ that tends to be overlapping, and there is always this ^
opportunity for being smart in the investments. ^ and at the same time,
every ops like leaders like myself were asked to justify the spend. •
On top of it, there is this AI investment which is also creating ^ a challenge
for all these ops leaders. • And they have to ^ now ^ not only justify the
existing GTM stack, but also ^ understand where the AI world is going and be
strategic in their approach. •
All this ^ led me to build this methodology, which I wish it existed when I
was doing all this. • Now I built that framework, which I’ve, you know,
really looking forward to giving back to the industry and the community, ^
which can use this framework in a repeated, scalable, and documented way, •
and it makes them defensible ^ in front of the leadership and finance teams. •
And that’s why I built Prune in a long-winded answer there. •
Michael Hartmann
Ha ha ha.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, no, I mean I think ^ this is gonna this is a kind of question or
challenge that I think a lot of people, ^ you know, if they’ve been in this
kind of role for a while, have faced, right? The situation ^ sometimes it
feels personal, right? Where you’re like, you know, why are we spending X
amount of dollars on, you know, Y product ^ and, you know, what are we getting
from it? I mean it’s a reasonable question. ^ It’s probably one we should be
asking ^ before we’re asked about it. So I know I, you know . . .
like you, I’ve I’ve ^ it’s making me think about it. There was one time for,
you know, approaching renewal. We were paying attention to one of our major
vendors. ^ and me, my boss, and my procurement partner, like we all got
together on sort of how we’re gonna strategize. And I mean we’d, we’d literally
only had it set up where we, because we didn’t, you know, ^ it was a struggle,
right? ^ we . . .
basically said here’s, you know, procurement’s role is gonna be this, my X
boss was gonna be the bad cop, I was gonna be the bad cop, good cop, right? ^
And like it’s kind of ridiculous ^ to some degree, but that was the reality of
what we tried to do we had to do to try to ^ to maximize, ^ you know, ^ you
know, I don’t even know that the benefit, but like maximize them, you know, or
minimize the cost that we knew we would have to spend ’cause it was one where
we felt like we had to have it. Like so ^ it’s weird. • •
Gaurav
Yeah, I mean there is also the cost of burning calories in that process. You
rightly mentioned about your boss, yourself ^ and the teams have to come
together to plan their strategy just and imagine just for one negotiation. •
Imagine having to do for multiple such vendors, ^ which is also ^ I won’t say
a distraction, but ^ a diversion from your day to day operations work. So so
it’s definitely not a scalable approach and that’s why I pruned
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Right. Right.
Gaurav
with the methodology and the framework that I’ve built, ^ it’s it’s easy for •
leaders to even at middle in the middle of the night be able to access all
this information ^ at the field.
Michael Hartmann
because you know that
Michael Hartmann
we’re all thinking about this stuff in the middle of the night, right? ^ what
so one of the things when we talked before that I thought was really
interesting, and I kind of hinted at it when I introduced you, is that ^ like ^
most people like me probably think about like the tech stack is a cost, you
know, what’s the cost? How do we manage or minimize the cost? ^ but you brought
up something that I thought was really sort of an interesting one, which is
talking about what is the stack
worth, right? What’s the value it’s generating? So ^ I guess, you know, is my
understanding of what your, you ^ know, that conversation, is it accurate?
And then like what, what led you to think about that? And ^ how do you think
about those two things as being different? It’s a lot of layered questions
there. • •
Gaurav
Yeah, so when it is so before we go to the worth piece, when it, when we talk
about cost of this GTM tech stack, we look at ^ black and white, how much are
we spending on that tool? And when it comes to renewal, we apply a certain ^
percentage increase or cap ^ which we are committed ^ to spend next year and
then renew it. ^ So cost is very simple. Worth is what the tool earns for you.
So it’s a formula - which looks at unused tools, your pay
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Gaurav
^ Plus the redundant tools you could console consolidate, • plus the
revenue sitting in the CRM leads or opportunity or other kind of gaps, •
whether it be leads unworked or unbilled. ^• So we look at all those, I would
say triangulated situation or multi-pronged approach, • that becomes the •
formula for your worth of the tech stack. • So, on an average, there are
hundreds of hundreds of thousands of dollars that we can find ^ when we
look at from that angle versus. •••
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. So ^ h like ^ • see if I get this right. So • part of the the value or kind
of the benefits I have a cost benefit for this is • the •^ potential cost savings
^• of • you know reducing spend with one vendor. Is that one part of it? Am
I gonna Yeah, but it’s one part of it. Okay. ^
Gaurav
Yeah, that is one part of it. And I’ll expand on that one is
Gaurav
when we look at the CRM • and we analyze the entire CRM lead to cash
flow. • in one example, I’ll give you an example. In one example situation,
we found there were around 312 leads that were not ^• assigned to the reps
and • you know just sitting in the CRM. • That’s ^• you can multiply that
to the average deal size and that becomes your unworked pipeline. ••
Michael Hartmann
Okay.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, okay. •
Gaurav
So not only is the tool cost, but then there is the unworked pipeline become
one un additional fa factor. • ^ that is just one. I look at ten different signals
• and then kind of tr you know come up with the ^ formula and the the
number. ••
Michael Hartmann
Okay.
Gaurav
to inform the audience or the stakeholders • that • the investments across
your GTM tech stack it’s not based on the cost that you’re • spending on
the tools, but also the • impact • and the underlying revenue flow • or
leakage • that adds. •
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Okay. That makes more s okay, I get it I get it. • Yeah, sorry. The just
saying the three hundred and twelve unfollowed up leads like made my
heart rate go up. So ^ it’s the kind of thing that it drives me crazy. ^ okay,
so you said you’ve got a framework. Maybe • walk us through ^• can you
walk us through that framework and ^ maybe like where do you like where
do you even start when you’re doing that, you know, assessing this this tech
stack for • for an organization? ••
Framework for Assessing Tech Stacks 10:52
Gaurav
Yeah, so I look at from five different angles, five steps. ^ first step is getting
the access of all the contract information from the finance team. And I
don’t need like access to the actual contract, but just a spreadsheet is good
enough, • which tells me the if all the vendors, • the annual cost they’re
spending on that vendor, the license count ^ and then I run it through my
prune analyzer. I’m able to tell which are potentially duplicate tools ^ and an
easy cat. ••
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Gaurav
So that’s ^• one factor. The second factor is I look at the login information.
So • the SSO or if you have an identity provider data, ^• companies are
invested in Okta, Google Workspace, whatever they are using, ^ I’m able to
see their login information • and cross-reference with the ^• the
investments on us on that specific tool, for example. • ^ so for exam to
give you to elaborate further, if we have ^ if the company is spending ^
let’s say
Gaurav
say
Gaurav
^ on ^ outreach ^• sorry sales loft and they’re spending thirty eight
thousand dollars per year • and only • twelve users out of the eighty five
licenses are actively using it day to day • that straight up is a ghost tool •
which is convicting we we need to look at it differently •
^• so I look at that. The third angle is I look at all the active contracts and
the renewal dates and the cancellation windows. ^• and some contracts are
also at auto renewal. • So fundamentally the comp the teams know that they
perhaps don’t need it. It’s just that they are so caught up in the day-to-day
activities. If they don’t flag it in time, • we are the the company or
Michael Hartmann
You missed the window
Michael Hartmann
of opportunity, yeah. Yeah.
Gaurav
Exactly, they’re locked in for
Gaurav
another year, ^• and that’s a waste of money. • The fourth angle is • there is
a human in the loop element, which is me working with the GTM team
members to really understand how they are using different tools. • And
oftentimes I find out that • the sales and marketing team • have invested in a
tool • not not at all captured in the finance sheet. Perhaps they have used
their credit cards • or some freemium tokens ^• and ^•
Michael Hartmann
Mm.
Michael Hartmann
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gaurav
are using ^• a tool that is solving the purpose and that’s why they’re not
using the one from the tech stack. • And that becomes a kind of a shadow
tool in the making ^• in the long run. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Gaurav
Yeah, cI classic example is Zapier when for example, you know, they use it
for connecting • and perhaps that’s not part of the tech stack. ^• so that’s a
ghost tool assessment • or finding. And then I also look at the Salesforce
analysis. You know, I run in run ^• an analysis in their CRM. •
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Gaurav
And as I said, each ^• signal that I identify, I apply a dollar value. ^• And I’ll I’ll
tell you the 10 signals that I look for: • the lead attribution, lead routing
speed, ^• duplicate contract rate, opportunity stage inflation, • closed one
field completeness, CRM adoption, • contract to billing, ^• lag. You know,
contract to billing, there is typically five to ten days of lag, ^• and then
renewal visibility. There are opportunities not created entirely.
Michael Hartmann
Okay.
Gaurav
^• That creates churn risk. • So all those things I look at very closely. ^• I
also forgot to mention data enrichment. So I look at those six • and then
come up with the ^• output for the leaders • and • tell them that you know
it’s not just a tool cost, but this • hundreds of thousands of dollars,
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann
^
Michael Hartmann
So I ^ used a term there that I’m not I don’t don’t remember I was talking about before but you said opportunity stage inflation. • What does that mean? I have a pretty good idea, but
Gaurav
Mm-hmm. So^
Gaurav
yeah, so sometimes ^ the reps tend to inflate the opportunity ^ or • misrepresent where the opportunity is in the lead lifecycle. Overly optimistic, or even under ^ undermining the opportunity • in either case, there is a gap • which needs to be filled because it shows up in the output in the downstream. • •
Michael Hartmann
So overly optimistic. Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Mm.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, I mean, ^ I would assume like d you I don’t think I heard you say this, but I would think ^ one thing that would make an interesting a way of evaluating that is going what’s the typical - forecast versus actual as you get closer to the end of a reporting period, month, quarter, whatever. And you know, ’cause like I I remember working at one organization where it was a non US based organization, • but the general manager for the US • finally got fed up with •
his actuals being so far off bc you know global headquarters on • compared to his forecast that he basically ^ If you’re not gonna update the CRM, you’re gonna be you have to update a spreadsheet; which is like now you’re creating a duplicate system just to solve the problem. But it was a clear indicator that • they were either sandbagging or they didn’t really know where things were. It’s so^ • yeah, so it’s • it’s a real problem out there. •
Gaurav
Yeah.
Gaurav
Yeah, so the framework is finding the tools that are tools that are ghosts, finding systems that are broken. You know, sometimes there is no integrations between different systems and the CRM , which is an easy •
Michael Hartmann
question mark. You know, what’s the whole point of investing when you’re not able to connect the dots? •
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm. ^
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Gaurav
and then I look at the revenue cycle also and find the bad data or missing connections. • Those three key ^ elements ^ matter and then they feed into my final recommendation • for the GTM leaders. •
Michael Hartmann
Gotcha. ^ • •
How ^ • like one of the things that I’ve been seeing lately • or recently, • whether it’s on LinkedIn or wherever in conversations • is what I’m kind of thinking of is like the hid some of the hidden costs of AI, • you know, adoption. • So in particular I’m thinking about like the cost of tokens, right? Which ^ • in they they show up after they’ve already been used, right? The cost because it’s , you know, and so I think there’s surprises that come in ^ •
Michael Hartmann
^ are you seeing ^ do you include that kind of stuff in your evaluation at this point, or is it still too early for that? •
Gaurav
Yeah, so AI readiness is part of my ^• package. ••
Michael Hartmann
okay . • But I mean in terms of like evaluating the opportunities • for increasing value from the stack . Are you looking at like what this what spend is happening? Because I suspect a lot of this is like you talked about it’s happening on credit cards, ^ and not through invoices, through the the finance team has a more immediate access to. ••
Gaurav
Yeah, so companies are underestimating the hidden cost of AI • and I’ll tell you with an example. So let’s say a company buys • an AI lead scoring model . The vendor quotes them two hundred thousand two hundred dollars a month. Simple. ^ but that’s for five hundred scored leads per month. So this is something • perhaps a marketing ops leader is doing in a silo. ^ oh then you end up scoring your • three three
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yep.
Gaurav
thousand leads so • remember I we bought two hundred dollars for five hundred score leads but we ended up ^• scoring for three thousand dollars and that’s twelve hundred per month ^ and that you discover later • and this is one example of AI being used • which you didn’t plan for ••
So that’s ^• one scenario. Fast forward six months, you are running into four different AI tools like this where different teams have invested out of their credit card or out of their budget. ^ now that becomes your shadow AI kind of ^ setup . Somebody sees it because it’s not a line item on an invoice . It’s the AI ^ Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
It’s not in a budget, right?
Gaurav
And it’s buried in the usage-based billing that • it’s part of their budget, ^ like their team’s budget, and nobody’s tracking holistically. So this decentralized adoption becomes a bit of a challenge • in navigating. On top of it, SDRs are buying their AI prospecting tools • on their credit cards, also. ^• marketing tools are using Chat GPT, and sometimes you hit the limit, you end up subscribing for the Chat GPT enterprise version. ^ and you never tell anybody because that’s
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Yeah.
Gaurav
a natural reaction to • get the work done in that moment. ^• So all those things are adding up ^ and because there is no visibility , it only compounds and you find out later when it becomes a bit of a challenge. ••
Michael Hartmann
Sure. So those things are adding because it is
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. I mean I suspect that’s happening ^ a lot • and it’s been quietly • being dealt with. So ^ all right, so when you do when you do this kind of assessment, ^• with either based on data or anecdotally, like what are what are typically the biggest forms of waste or inefficiency or value that you uncover ? You mentioned ghost tools and • spending on multiple tools, things like that. is it what what else what like what are the things that are so fairly common? • •
Common Inefficiencies and Waste in Tech Stacks 20:25
Gaurav
Yeah, I think the one that I mentioned earlier are about the three pieces. ^ right, we look at ^• the • ghost tools. There are tools which are naturally • I would say pruneable. ^ I’ll give you an example. Calendar of calendarly offers the calendaring option, ^ Zoom calendar offers calendar calendaring option. There is Google Calendar also offering calendar option calendaring option. Now yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. I use ZCal. They all like they all
Michael Hartmann
do the same thing, yeah. Yeah.
Gaurav
Yeah, and
Gaurav
if you don’t need • a sophisticated solution, which is you don’t need an integrated calendar option, which ideally should be the case, but maybe in that moment, that year, that’s not the priority. ^ where there is no need for, you know, ^ sophisticated ^• team group calendar kind of a solution, but just making sure that the reps have calendar option on their ^• email outreach . Now that to me is an easy one to fix. You just don’t need this many tools.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Gaurav
And perhaps Calendly is a cutable or prunable solution and just focus on Zoom or Google • workspace where you have enterprise licenses. So that’s that. ^ In addition to that, I’ve also seen companies investing or overinvesting in data enrichment platforms . ^ And data enrichment platforms come with a large cost these days. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yes. •
Gaurav
And you perhaps don’t need this many. ^ It’s all about optimizing working with the vendors and challenging their capabilities ^ before looking at a different platform. So it’s a bit of a process change also and •
Michael Hartmann
Just cheap.
Gaurav
^ What happens in most of the cases, a decision that was made a couple of years ago by somebody else to bring on a specific data enrichment platform, ^ that person may have left. ^ And nobody has taken that decision to get rid of it because of the fear that it may impact revenue. ••
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Gaurav
So you have now multiple data enrichment platforms. • And the third one is as I mentioned, is the CRM. That’s where the biggest leakages I find. ^• when you know the you not assessing your lead to cash cycle because ^ every team ^• looks at things differently, meaning • there is the marketing
... ops team, there is sales ops, • there is customer success ops. So they are looking at the entire lead to cash cycle in their own purview, ^ and nobody’s
Michael Hartmann
It’s the C R
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm. ^
Understanding API Outages and Their Impact 22:49
Gaurav
looking at holistically at times • and then there is a gap over there as well. ^ What is also interesting Mike is • there are API outages often with all these third party integrations.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Ha
Michael Hartmann
ha ha. ^ •
Gaurav
And those API integrations outages are fixed in that moment by the • IT and the operations teams, • but are never ^ brought to the extent when it comes to renewal negotiation with the vendor. That’s not a negotiation lever that is being pulled. … But the outages in that moment did cost ^ dollars to the company.
Michael Hartmann
Hm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. • •
Gaurav
And those are so many important points that never get captured in • the holistic scenario. • And that’s what I kind of, you know, bring it to the table to the leaders. ^ •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, it’s really interesting. It’s interesting this idea of leakage ^• in ^ the final line from lead to cash. It’s • in so I was at one organization where in as a marketing marketing ops • person, right, • I was being asked by the CMO to report on • ^ and ^ we’ve had a pretty sophisticated and • pretty much agreed upon • model for assigning sourcing for leads, right? Whether it came from marketing or •
... PDRs or sales teams or • s ^ customer success, right? ^ And I started looking at Salesforce data and seeing just • pretty large numbers ^ of just in terms of ^ the quantity of opportunities that have been out there where there didn’t look like there had been any • activity • with pretty large revenue potential • out there. So even if you took it at half • or a quarter, right? It was still substantial, ^ why not right away. ^ And I started bringing this up in, you know. •
The Importance of Visibility in Sales Operations 24:10
Michael Hartmann
group meetings where where the sales leadership and sales ops were there and ^ the the resistance I got • oh that because I wasn’t saying hey this is a like you guys aren’t doing your job I was just like hey did you know this was here like I was trying to bring visibility to it ^ and suggesting that the sales leaders, sales managers, ^ they should be holding their salespeople accountable . • And it was a it was like •
I felt like I was attacked more than • than ^ I intended for them to feel attacked. It was it was bizarre . • So I was like if I’m sitting over there thinking like , Why are like I look if something’s actually happening, great, go put it in there . Take two minutes. • Because you’re being measured on the next quarter or two. And some of these were this long sales cycle stuff. So some of these were potential for • six, twelve, eighteen, twenty four months out . But even so, right? •
Gaurav
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
to get there you still have to • kind of continue to maintain a relationship. •• And it was just • I thought it was odd that there was that that back and forth where they didn’t do it. So like it is a fairly common thing where you’re seeing stuff like that where , you know, ^ maybe this highlights a • a little bit of a break of, you know, lack of ^ I don’t know, what do you call it? Lack of ^ • consistency about maintaining this stuff and • and then there’s like • people go, it’s just the way it is. • •
Gaurav
Yeah. ^• the you know, I look at people, process and platforms as a three angles ^ for running a business and ^• this falls in the process kind of a scenario where • you have the pod platform, you have really smart people , • It’s where the governance ^• and SLAs is being put in and who’s monitoring and optimizing for it. I think that falls in that category that you just ^ mentioned. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. • And s and the other one with ^• like these data providers, I suspect on top of those ones that are existing vendors where you pay ^ I suspect there’s a lot of people out there who are doing their own augmentation using ^ clay or other tools like that to go • pull this themselves, again •
... leading to this hidden cost of the the transaction costs that’re going with that. • •
Hidden Costs of Vendor Management 26:34
Gaurav
Yeah, I mean nobody speaks, but the harsh reality is when you have this many different vendors, you have to ^• spend that much energy with all those vendors. ^ And that goes all the way from the operations team having to have this bi weekly or monthly sync with those vendors ^ or even quarterly. ^• It also means the sourcing have to plan for them and negotiate and keep an eye out. The finance have to be alhas to capture that in their budgeting. • All those things •
are costs that nobody speaks of ^ because in that moment it is all about delivery. • But these are some hidden costs that, you know, that comes along with just in the tech float that companies tend to have. •
Michael Hartmann
I mean there’s like I think what you’re saying is like there’s a base ^ cost in terms of time ^ to manage any vendor, right? Some it doesn’t really matter how big the contract is. And it that ^ actually resonates ’cause I feel like I’ve had contracts that were , you know , under twenty five thousand dollars that took just as much effort to manage as • then one that was a million dollars. ••
So I probably paid more attention to the one that was the bigger one, right? And made sure that they were consistent. But like ^ if you have enough of those small ones, right, they add up to ^ something that’s material • from a finance standpoint. ^ and we’ve kind of talked a little bit about AI in this here. • So one of the things I’ve I think • in fact our ^ last conversation that Mike and Naomi and I had, ^• we talked a little bit about like the pressure • to b ^
quote, do AI or have a strategy around it. ^ And ^ in that case, we were talking a little bit more about the • like, is it been a net positive or not • for people in ops or roles? But ^ there is that pressure there. • How ^ how does your framework and what you’re doing help organizations figure out • like where should AI really fit into their • tech stack, their strategy, ^ and where it doesn’t. • •
Navigating the Build vs. Buy Dilemma in AI 28:36
Gaurav
Yeah, it also kind of ties into the build versus buy if you are hearing this often. ^ people are struggling on • making decision whether do we buy ^ a a solution with AI ^ on top of it or do we build it in-house. • So I would club that into two one answer, but ^ the way I look at it is rather than • focusing on build versus buy, the focus should be what are we solving for. •
Michael Hartmann d>
Yeah. ^
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Gaurav
So we are at a stage where we all know that AI works. • We just need to test
it in a simulated environment and scale it if the foundations are clean. • ^•
and so I’ll give you an example. If we are solving for lead scoring, then buy
it because there are purpose-built tools that exist, they are cheaper, •
faster, and someone can • easily handle the maintenance of it. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
But it’s not as git doesn’t match our business. •
Gaurav
So if it isn’t then we as I said, you know, going back to simulated
environment, if you really want to test it out and see if it is working, meaning
like building it in-house ^ and seeing if it is working, then scale it of course. ^
Michael Hartmann
'cause that'll be the pushback, right? Our business our business is so
unique that the out of the box thing doesn’t work. And I’m like •• I’m a big
believer, like that’s a fallacy we all a lot of us like to tell each tell ourselves.
• Something on like lead scoring. • Like I is there’s a there’s a point where •
like the level of differentiation you might get • by having a custom • kind of
model • is probably like the ••
It drops off very quickly in terms of the inc incremental value you get from
that. ••
Evaluating AI Solutions: Build or Buy? 30:50
Gaurav
You know, this is quite timely because I was talking to somebody yesterday
and they ^• went through this ^• building of leech coding model themselves
in-house and they came to a conclusion that they cannot • beat the clays
and Apollos and ^• zoom infos of the world who have been purpose-built
solutions. ^• and also have data coming from all different sources. ^•
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Yeah. ^•
Gaurav
So just building it in-house does cost new resources, time, energy. • You
can try it, but then also be mindful of how the industry is shaping • in the
existing SaaS landscape who are built bringing this purpose-built solution. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. • Well I feel like there’s a little bit of ^• •
^• I think there’s this two things that are sort of pushing on this buy versus
build that • maybe are • having sort of opposing impacts. One is • with all
the explosion of AI and sort of ^• vibe coding or whatever right kinds of •
potential solutions out there, • I I think there’s a per a bigger perceived
risk • for ^• committing to a vendor, right? ••
on a a platform or a product or a solution. ^• and on the other hand,
because of things like vibe coding and ^ the quote demo…
democratization of that capability, • that the • there’s downward pressure on
the cost of build . That I th and I think both of those are a little bit •• I don’t
want to say they’re false. I think there is I think if I if I was out there really
buy spending on •
technology right now, I would probably be really careful about how much I
committed in terms of time • and be really certain about that. • But I was
probably doing that all I I I think I was do that do that anyway. • On the build
side, I think there’s an underestimation about how much • that actually
costs in the long term because • you’re now signing up for • maintenance •
support.^ you know if something it breaks, you you’re like you’re doing that
in the middle of the night, right? • And so ^•
Like, do you really want to take that on, even if it’s faster to iterate through
prototypes to production to ^ and all that? ••
Gaurav
^• Yeah, • I I think we are at in an era where ^• companies are starting to
rationalize • their tech stack and a lot of these vendors have built built-in
features in their technologies. • So companies are looking at maximizing
that investment ^• on top of it . • If they are looking to build it in-house, then
they are really making sure the foundation is clean • so that what they are
building on top of it is • easy to maintain . •
Rationalizing Tech Stacks for AI Initiatives 33:15
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Gaurav
But at the same time, • this is the situation that I’m seeing right now. We are
not at the scalable stage. We are still in the testing era. ^• Companies are •
at the belief that AI does work. • it’s about how they can first rationalize it, •
rationalize the existing tech stack so that it they can fund it for • their AI
initiatives, • and then how they scale it further across the teams. ^•
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. • Well and I just I just realized there’s another piece of this puzzle of
^• the risk you take on or the ^• the liability I guess ^• you take on • if you’re
building on stuff which vendors take on otherwise, which is ^• like data • data
• security and privacy, right? If you’ve especially if you’re talking about PII
data, like ^• like ^• you’ve gotta consider that.
Right. So it may be really quick to build a prototype that does something on
a database that’s not truly secure. I think that’s the
Gaurav
^• Yeah, that’s ^
Gaurav
that’s another angle. ^• however I’m pro AI. I definitely think people ^•
Michael Hartmann
I I am too, right?
Michael Hartmann
I but I just I think it’s ^ I think this this perception that it doesn’t come
without • risks or costs.
Gaurav
That’s ac ^•
Gaurav
that’s something people tend to overlook and that’s how first they need to
rationalize ^• and look at the holistic picture and • see how their dollars are
invested judiciously towards this AI initiatives. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. • So I think what’s interesting about this whole conversation, right?
And I think you and I touched on this when we spoke, is that • a a part of
what your work and what you’re doing • is trying to help • ops leaders, like
the people who are listening or watching this • conversation , to do a better
be able to communicate better with their finance , • their senior leadership,
executives, whatever it is, depending on the organization, • ^• which •
Michael Hartmann
i for any longtime listener of the show, like I’m a huge advocate for like •
understanding basics of finance because I think it’s it's a not only is it
important for you from a career standpoint, ’cause I think it sets you up to
have • better conversations where you can ^• generally have a better chance
of • doing things you want to do if you’re essentially pitching an idea, ^•
which is all this falls into. ••
It also I think it • this way of thinking about the trade offs • between options
^• and like whenever I’ve gone and pitched say ^• a new vendor to evaluate a
vendor, say if I did an RFP or something, like I’m always looking at • ^ Do
they match what we need and how well do they match it? • But I’m always I
always have a sort of a basic financial model behind it • with like • one time
and ongoing costs up to •
depending on how far I go out, like three to five years . • And then I always
include sort of a risks ^• and change impact kind of section as well . • Right.
Which is a little it’s not • it’s it’s less ^ it’s it’s a little more subjective , • but I
like it feels like it’s important, right? And it can be often overlooked. So and
I think • despite what people probably have as a perception about finance
teams, • I think they appreciate that more than you realize. ••
Gaurav
Yeah, • so my advice is generally to approach it not structurally, ^ I mean
approach it structurally, not opinionated that we don’t want a tool for
certain reason . • But when I put structure, you go in with the • the finance
angle, which is how it is going to impact your cash flow, how is it going to
impact your revenue? All those, you know, elements are really helpful when
you are talking to a CF or finance leadership. ^• and how you are looking at
Michael Hartmann
Yep. Yep.
Gaurav
you know, ^• rationalizing the tools, how is it going to fund it for other
initiatives that you have? • How is it gonna fund it for some resources that
you plan to bring on? • So that kind of a 30, 60, 90 day action plan • along
with this revenue impact , • it’s more like a business plan and not a report
anymore when you present to this kind of leaders. And they love it . •
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
No, I’m totally I think I think so. It’s like well, I think like this is a good
example though. So you call shadow systems, I think you call them ghost
tools. Same kind of thing, right? These things that get • there’s cost that’s
leaking out of the organization through credit cards or whatever, • ^ or
small invoices. ^ And the what I think what what people don’t understand
about how finance people see that is •
That’s a missed opportunity potentially to capitalize the cost, which is
treated differently from an accounting standpoint. • Right. • And ^ so so
because that from a cash flow standpoint, well, • from a PL standpoint, has
in a balance sheet standpoint has different effects. ^ And • you know, if
you’re in a big organization and there’s lots of pockets of that kind of small
stuff happening, right, • when you when it at the aggregate, • it’s it can have
an impact. •
Gaurav
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
But if but if you don’t know how to how if you don’t know why your finance
person is getting • annoyed or frustrated or upset because there’s these ^
small what you call think of small costs, • it’s not necessarily because the
costs are there, although that may be part of it. • it’s potentially because of
how • it affects • how we report to our investors. •
Gaurav
Mm-hmm. • Yep. Report to the board, report to the investors, to different
audiences. ^
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Understanding Trade-offs in Decision Making 39:20
Michael Hartmann
So that’s why I think • and I think I think, you know, • when I ^ I ^ some of
this like and it’s evolved over time. I think I always did the evaluation of •
vendors • across do they meet capabilities and did the financial part of it.
When I added the other part • about the trade offs, right, it changed the
decision making process • quite a bit. But what happened to me is at some
point, and I’m gonna attribute it to Thomas Sowell, because that’s the place
first place I heard it, he’s an economist. •
He talked about like there are no • decisions, there are no there are no
answers, there are trade-offs. ^ and it and it stuck with me about how • to
think about these things because ^ I may think, ^ I I think actually before
that I would say, • ^ like whatever you like, how do you not see that this is
the right answer? •• Right? And • when I stopped and put myself in someone
else’s shoes and go, like, how are they gonna see this? • And what are they
gonna think about it differently? •
You know, because their perspective is different, they maybe have a
broader view of, you know, where our money’s being allocated and how
it’s being invested, how much it costs us to get capital, right? All those
kinds of things. • • it changed how I started to think about it, • and I think in
a good ways. • So like • do you do you see like it are you seeing ^ when you
do these assessments ^• with organizations, is it helping those ops leaders
communicate better?
Gaurav
Yeah, talking about trade-offs.
Gaurav
^ Yeah, I mean in the talking of trade-offs, especially in this AI era , you
know, there are ^• decisions that we’re gonna take ^ as ops leaders • a la
around the AI elements . • there are some hard trade offs that we’ll have to
bring in that exp you know, explanation to the stakeholders and the leaders,
^• meaning, you know, going back to the earlier point about build versus
... buy, there is that economics that • may work in the short term, • but it’s •
and
Michael Hartmann
Yes.
Gaurav
And you know it and it can work in short term, it may be fragmented also in
large degree, • but how you pi you know present the picture, how is it
gonna be simplified in the long term, • that becomes a key part of your you
know presentation to the stakeholders. •
Michael Hartmann
Yes.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. It’s like going in with our eyes open, right? We know that we’re
making a short-term decision ^ and it and here’s how we see it changing
over time. • Right. That’s a different decis question that’s a different
conversation than • we have to do this now because otherwise like just
because. Like • •
It’s reasonable to get resistance from that. And I think a lot of people
listening, if they have gone through that and gotten frustrated, it’s probably
because •• they assumed • an understanding that • for the other people
that was similar to theirs, which is not always the case. ^ General probably
not. ••
So • ^• so while we ^ I know we’re we’re gonna have to wrap up here. So
like maybe one more question for you. So you’ve got this framework,
you’re doing this work. • For those people who are listening and maybe
want to get a kickstart on something like this, like what is something they
could do in the next • 30 days • to do a little bit of what you are doing with
with your framework? ••
Kickstarting Financial Assessments in Operations 42:30
Gaurav
Yeah, ^ I I think they can start with the finance spreadsheet, get the ^ data
on the spreadsheet on all the tools that they’re • ^ spending on, ^• and ^ and
just going line by line they’ll be able to find some low-hanging fruits on
which ones ^ obviously can be cut or pruned. •
^• and also on top of it, cross-reference with all the logins, you know, the
SSO information through Okta or any other • IT management solution, you
are able to see people • actually using it or not . • And then combining that
information ^ along with how • the impact is in your Salesforce, like just … doing some easy assessment on • duplicate leads, unwork leads. •
Michael Hartmann
Mm. ^
Gaurav
I think those three elements when you combine them together, you’ll be
able to easily find hundred thousand to two hundred thousand dollars ^•
that you can regain just by doing this simple exercise in the first I mean I
would say in the next fifteen to thirty days itself. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah. Well I mean I think even if you like see you were at a smallerization
you can find twenty five thousand. Like I think that • you’d be seen as a
hero, • right? I mean, it’s not it doesn’t take a huge amount, like it doesn’t
have to be a million dollar savings. •
Gaurav
Yeah. Yeah.
Gaurav
Yes, somebody told me every dollar saved is an every dollar earned. ••
Michael Hartmann
Well, and the way I think about this is so stupid, but there’s this book that I
got ^ as part of a global marketing • team meeting when I worked at a big
company ^ and the speaker the the speaker was an author, he written a
book called • How to Be a Marketing Superstar, which was • a really silly
name and the most of the book I don’t remember, but there was one •
quote chapter, it was two facing pages that said this is this is customer
money and the the gist of it was everybody’s check ••
Theoretically, like if you were actually to get a check, should it should say
this is customer money. •• And it’s another one of those things, like it
seems cheesy, • but I used to have that like • on my desk • for multiple
jobs. I just had a photocopy of that page because it was a reminder that like
everything we do and everything that we spend money on ^• is affecting ••
my like my ability to get paid. Right. So ^ •
Gaurav
Yep.
Michael Hartmann
And so that like that was a that for me • it’s a silly kind of thing. At the same
time, • like it’s it’s a it’s a truth that was just summarized in one sentence.
So • that’s why I’m the guy like when I have to when I book business travel,
like I • I don’t go to the cheapest airfare. Like I’m and I’m not gonna put
myself through like pain of like multiple stops if I don’t have to. • But I’m
… not gonna spend ••
Gaurav
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
you know, • twice as much for the next level, right? If I if I just don’t think
it’s worth it. •• Or I’m not gonna go spend at the nicest hotel if I can get
away with one that’s ^• moderate because I know I’m like all I’m gonna do
is be sleeping there. ••
Gaurav
^• This is quite an interesting angle because I I have been a you know ^•
the bad guy who ended up investing in certain tools for certain features
and never ended up using those. So ^• it does bite you. •
Michael Hartmann
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann
Yeah, yeah. • And when you and then when you realize like part of why you
• got ^• you know a bonus or increase in compensation or you didn’t get
what you hope for, right, • it’s a contributing factor, right? ^• it it it • every
little bit adds up. ••So • yeah, I ^• call me old man on the porch, but like that’s ^ I think that’s one
thing I wish I had • I wish I had realized when I was earlier in my career. ••
So •• Grav, • lots of fun. Thanks for powering through some of the technical
challenges we had today. If folks want to continue the conversation or learn
more about what you’re doing with prune or the framework, what’s the best
way for them to do that? ••
Gaurav
^• they can reach out to me on Gorov at get prune dot IO, but before they
reach out to me, perhaps they can • introspect or work with their leadership
and ask this question • how much our how much of our go to market tech
stack spend is actually measurable. • And when I say measurable, it’s not
the cost of it, it’s the worth of it. Once they have that kind of an angle to
start with, • I I think the answers will start to come through their internal
discussions and you know, happy to chat with the
Michael Hartmann
Mm-hmm.
Gaurav
with me. ^ I mean happy to chat with them in detail. ^ as I said it’s gaurav at
getTrune.io. ^ it’s on my link I’m on LinkedIn as well. They can find me on
LinkedIn. ^ and my calendar is open for a 20 minute or 30 minute chat or
even longer. •
Michael Hartmann
Perfect. Sounds good. Again, Gorov, thank you so much. • Thank you to
our ^ longtime listeners, supporters or new ones out there. • We always
appreciate you. If you have ideas for topics or guests or you want to be a
guest like Gorov, like please reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me and we would
get the ball rolling. • Until next time. Bye everybody. ••
Gaurav
Bye everyone. Thanks, Mike.