Heroic Nation Podcast
The ONLY podcast addressing Physical Health and Mental Health for First Responders.
Host:
Anthony Shefferly
-Full time Police/SWAT (16+ years)
-Master's in Science: Psychology
-Tactical Strength & Conditioning
Owner Heroic Fitness/CrossFit Tactical Strength
College Football/CrossFit Regionals/BJJ/Kettlebells
Heroic Nation Podcast
Trauma, Fitness, and Resilience: Deanna Kahle on First Responder Mental Health and Physical Training
Next, we tackle the perils and rewards of incorporating open water swimming in CrossFit competitions. Hear firsthand about the life-threatening dangers for non-swimming athletes and how the history and Navy SEAL influence of these events factor in. We delve deep into the psychological mindset of pushing limits and the crucial need for both organizational responsibility and personal awareness. This segment emphasizes how discipline over motivation can maintain progress through challenging phases, urging listeners to uncover their deeper "why" to ensure long-term commitment.
Lastly, we shine a light on mental health support for first responders, highlighting Travis's training course and the need to balance resilience with vulnerability. Deanna shares real-world examples and underscores the importance of mental health wellness check-ups aimed at self-improvement rather than fitness-for-duty assessments. We also tackle processing intrusive thoughts, the necessity of addressing unresolved trauma, and the power of group support and engagement. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in mental health, resilience, and the intricate balance of maintaining performance under pressure.
and welcome, welcome back. Welcome to the show. This is another episode of heroic industries. Sorry, heroic nation, not broke industries. Heroic industries, the name of the company. Heroic nation is the name of the podcast. Get Heroic Nation is the name of the podcast. Get it right, dude. Get it right, man. This podcast is man.
Speaker 1:I hesitate to even say this because it should be known already, but this episode is the greatest episode ever. It is so good. It is so good. So the guest I had today was awesome, and this is actually the second time that we have met, because the first time was it was literally I talk about this in the show but it was literally the greatest podcast of all time, of all time, and we lost it. We lost it because of technological errors, aka user errors on my end, so I screwed up the recording and didn't get it done. So it's just. Hopefully some aliens have it somewhere in outer space and they're listening to it and they're like man, this is the greatest podcast of all time and I can't believe the humans jacked it up so bad that it just didn't get recorded. So it's somewhere it up so bad that it just didn't get recorded, so it's somewhere. I'm just going to like just leave that to the universe then and just say it's somewhere and somebody listened to it and was blown away, anyway. So this is the repeat of that, which I'm going to say is probably just as good. So it was like maybe better, right? So we got to talk about a bunch of ideas and concepts last time and then we really honed in on some this time.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, deanna is a let me read this so I don't screw it up a trauma-focused licensed clinician, right? She focuses on trauma with first responders. She does a ton of work with academies. She does a ton of work with officer involved shootings, critical incidents, all that kind of stuff. She's very well-rounded. She owned a gym. She has a background in fitness, which is why I really had some good conversations with her. It was a lot of overlap with that. So she is on Instagram as cop shrink and a pretty cool name. I think I like it. So, anyway, great conversation with her today. So you're going to really enjoy that because it is, like I said, the greatest podcast of all time. Suck it, joe Rogan. Okay, all right, a couple of other things I want to mention before we get into the greatest podcast of all time is that Henner Gracie is a punk. The greatest podcast of all time is that henner gracie is a punk.
Speaker 1:So, uh, last time I discussed the safe rap system, I hate to even give him more air time. Uh, because it's really what he wants. He's using you know the negativity to polarize and do exactly what you should on social media polarize, and everybody talks about you, which is exactly what you want, and I'm giving him what he wants, even though the uh, the motherfucker blocked me on on Instagram. He blocked me on Instagram. He also blocked a crap ton of other people to some really, some really high level people Chris Lehman, uh, chris Delaney, you know probably, probably a bunch of other people that that I'm not going to go through and like list off right now, but the the list is very long. It has to be very long.
Speaker 1:If he got down to my comment. A lowly old, crappy blue belt in jujitsu, local police officer, and he took the time to block me solely because I questioned his program. I didn't even say anything negative. All I said was I don't think that this is good marketing and that was enough to get you blocked. I didn't cuss at him, I didn't call him names, I didn't say he was stupid, I just questioned his marketing and that was enough that I got blocked. I had one of my buddies send me the link to his Instagram to see if I could find it and, lo and behold, it's all gone. So good work.
Speaker 1:Henner, gracie, you're a punk. Now I'm calling you names. You are a punk. If that is all it takes is someone to question you and you can't even engage in conversation, you can't even engage in conversation. You can't even answer their questions and have a reasonable discussion with people in the field that you're trying to sell to, then you are a liar and you are trying to manipulate. That's it. Like you are not leading in the field, you are manipulating the field, that's all right.
Speaker 1:And then there was a post that Chris Delaney put up that was very, very good questions about like hey, in New York you're not allowed to cover people's necks, even with their own arms, and then your safe wrap system actually does that. That is the whole system is you do a twisted arm control, you put it over their neck. That gets put in jail out there, man. So I hope that you know these departments are paying attention and they're not just throwing money at a thing that they think is safe, when really they'd be training their people on stuff that's going to put their asses in jail, which is a whole other topic. All by itself, pretty ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But I don't know why anybody I don't know why anybody would be a cop in New York at all. You know what I mean, like why I don't know why anybody would be a cop in New York at all. You know what I mean. Why Just not me? I'd find another way to make money and it would not include being a cop in that neck of the woods. That is insane, the way that they do things out there. Anyway, all right. So if you know anyone that is blocked by henner gracie, I want to form a super group. I want to form a super group of people that have been blocked by henner gracie and we can all join forces and say whatever we want about. I don't know whatever, but I that would be a lot of, a lot of actually like really cool people. I that all had the same questions and were all treated the same way by the biggest name in jiu-jitsu Very poorly. So he can go pack sand for all I care. Anyway, all right.
Speaker 2:Enough about him.
Speaker 1:Okay Topic I want to dig into a little bit and it might be polarizing. It might not be, but it's not really meant to be. It's just facts, right? Or my opinions based on this event. Right, we had a death of an athlete at the CrossFit Games. It was a drowning. So an athlete went out for an open water swim. I don't know all the details, I didn't look into it like super, super hard, so I'm just going to give you the overall general, general guidelines on it or general synopsis of it.
Speaker 1:Open water swim at the CrossFit games team event. Uh, athlete goes out, doesn't come back. Okay, uh, turns out that they found that he had drowned, um in drowned in the midst of this event and they had to go out, call the fire department, fire department, you know like finds his body and pulls him from the body of water and there you go, drowned. It was an event that was a combination open water swim and then several other things and the swim was not first in the succession. I don't know that it would have mattered, but point being, you're going into the water fatigued and it's a large body of water. It's not like a pool, right, that's. If you know anything about swimming. You know that that is a very different experience. Swimming in an open water for 800 meters versus in a pool, for, you know, a 50 or 25 meter length, like that is a very different experience. And uh, it's if you've never done it or you haven't done it much like it's terrifying and and uh, I've not done a ton of open water like very, very, very little and um, like maybe even just once and it was not that far, it was much shorter and it was panic inducing. So I'm not a great swimmer but I can. I can handle myself in a pool for a little bit. You know my fatigue out quickly and then I I tend to like take breaks at the walls. So, like it's not a huge, it's not a huge forte of mine.
Speaker 1:Uh, the the last CrossFit event I did was in 2021, I believe and there was a swimming event in a pool and I did the first section of it fine and I think it was only like a 50 meter sprint. And then the next one went up to a hundred or 200 meter sprint and I made it 50 meters and and about inhaled a ton of water and sunk to the bottom of the pool and that was just a six foot seven foot pool, you know, just a lap pool. So I ended up having to take long breaks on the on the ends and uh, it's cause I'm not a super strong swimmer. And if that would have been an open body of water, I would have had to been pulled from the from the water by a lifeguard or I would, I would have died. There's no possible way that I would have made it 200, 400 meters out and back in an open body of water without some rescue occurring. That would not have happened.
Speaker 1:Uh, especially going into the water fatigued, in a fatigued state. So I would have been the same boat and you know like we look at it and it's like what can we say? Like the first time they brought an open water event in the CrossFit Games, I think, was back when it was out in California. They utilized the beaches and then they did the same thing in Madison because there's lakes there and bodies of water there, and the first thing I saw was what a huge liability and what's the payoff, other than it looks kind of cool and you know it's like predictable is preventable.
Speaker 1:You know, swimming is not and it's not a huge part of of of CrossFit as a sport Now that the higher level athletes are getting in the water all the time, I guess. So you know, maybe maybe it is bigger, Maybe I I've been out of the game a little bit. So you know, maybe maybe I'm not correct, but it's like what'd you expect was going to happen here, you know, and uh, it's not like it takes a rocket scientist to guess that at some point, some CrossFit athletes going to try to do something that they are at the margins of which is which is really what CrossFit is meant to do. It's meant to expose you at the margins of your experience and in something like this it's not like you're just not going to lift a weight or you're going to pull a muscle. You know, trying to keep a ring muscle up or something like that, you know you're going to drown and if you don't have lifeguards, basically with every athlete, that's going to be a hard thing to stop from happening because it happens so quick and it's predict, predictability. You know, predictability.
Speaker 1:There's no way that I would have done that as an athlete, knowing that this is this is not smart for me to do, you know, like deadlifting 500 pounds, not smart for me to do either, and I would hesitate to even get under a bar like that, even after a good warmup. You know, at this point in my athletic career cause I don't want to blow a disc out and be crippled for two, three weeks right, or get surgery or whatever. Um, but if I go and get into a large body of water like shit man, like I ain't coming back, like there's a chance I don't come back from this, and you know, like that that's a that's a predictability thing that CrossFit should have had on their radar, and I don't know their inner workings or anything but additionally, the athletes should have talked about this Are you comfortable going in the water? This is a long-ass swim and we're going to be tired and you've got to realistically say like I'm not ready for this or be like I don't know, maybe they did train like that, but you know, like there are so many other variables that go on that it's just like dude, you can't do this. If they do this again, they're absolutely nuts. You know absolutely nuts. And if they go into if, if anybody, a local event, national event, international event, if they do any type of open water swim, they're out of their freaking minds. Out of their minds Like this should never happen again. It should have never happened to begin with. But I understand why they did it Like it looks cool.
Speaker 1:Dave Castro is a Navy SEAL, you know, like you know, and that's something too that needs to be looked at. Like you know, dave's coming from, castro's coming from a background where, you know, in Navy SEAL training just like any training police training, military training, fire department training there are deaths in training and it's kind of part of it. You know, it doesn't happen very often. I don't know how the military is, I wasn't in the military but, like training, deaths don't happen very often, but they do happen. They do happen and they happen, you know, consistently. So it's not like that's going to go away. The risk of death in training is there and when you go into a CrossFit event they treat it much like the military and there's there's a chance that you, you might die. So, you know, maybe it's on the waivers, I don't know. I've never been to the CrossFit games, I didn't make it that far.
Speaker 1:But yeah, all things that that should be discussed. You know, personal responsibility, knowing your limitations, and is it worth it? You know is, is it worth it? And that's something where it gets to be an interesting like psychological conversation. Because, you know, think about, like, playing sports. Right, if you're playing sports at really any level, I mean it depends on your mindset for the, the competition that you're doing, uh, you're typically, when you're younger, you know you're, you're things hurt less, right, when you're, you're in your teens and twenties, uh, and you will do things for competition that you know are going to hurt you long-term or have the potential to hurt you very badly and you don't give a shit.
Speaker 1:And it's just like I might lose an arm doing this. Right, especially in football, like you know, I think back to my football days and it was like and it was like I didn't care about anything. Hey, if you do this you might lose your knee, I don't care, bring it, I might lose an arm doing this. That's much the way I was with CrossFit. I had to be because I wasn't as skilled as some of the other higher-level guys. Just to be in the conversation with higher-level people, I had to go recklessly and that comes with consequences both in the immediate and downstream, but it was worth it, you know. And then looking, looking at it now, like the different injuries I've had elbows, knees, that kind of stuff. Can you trace it back to that? No, probably, but was it worth it? Well, it was worth it for me at the time. So there's that.
Speaker 1:But there's a lot of stuff that you know you'll, you'll do for competition. You'll lose an arm, you'll lose a hamstring, you'll lose a pec, you lose a bicep because you want to do something fun. And you know, because you want to do something fun and you know death is a risk. You know, usually it's not, but even if you go to high school football and you read the warning label on the back of the sticker, the sticker on the back of the helmet, if you read that and every year I used to read it, my dad used to make me read it and I make my kids read it Every year you pick that up, you look at it and it says right on there I'm summarizing but this is a dangerous game. It can paralyze you and kill you dead. There are kids every year that get paralyzed and dead from playing football.
Speaker 1:Now, is it worth it? Do you want to do this? And that's always a conversation that you have to have and you have to know the risks you're taking so that you can make the risk appropriately, you know, and it shouldn't scare you, it should just inform you. You know, like you can't run around every like in bubble wrap, like you have to take risks and the goal of life is not to get out of life unscathed. That's not the point, that's not the purpose. I don't believe that for a second. If you get to the end of your life and you're in mint condition, to me you did something wrong. So that's not the point. But you do need to weigh the risks appropriately and consider all the things involved, all the people that are affected by you and and you uh, potential injury or death and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And when you're younger there's not as many you know what I mean. Like you're just kind of on your own so you can do whatever the hell you want and it usually doesn't affect too many people. Now, as you get older, you got kids, stuff like that. You know why did you take the risk? Was it worth it? Like I don't know. You know that's up to the individual person, but you have to look at it, you have to actually be aware and that does take some level of like ability to like uh, like introspection or or thought process behind it.
Speaker 1:So you know, hell, if, if we could talk to this guy, the athlete that died I can't, I don't want to screw his name up, but like, maybe that was worth it to him. If you talk to some of his teammates and maybe it's like he's a he's, he's a literal diehard CrossFitter, like he would die for this sport, then maybe he's okay with it. You know, and and that's something to look at too Like, maybe, hey, like you know, I'm sure they're all sad that he's gone. It sucks, it's tragedy, but at the same time, like, would he have wanted to go out like this? Because there's there's that as part of the conversation to, you know, go out doing something you love, like, hey, there are worse things to die like and worse ways to die. So in a sense, you can look at it and say, like, if the answer for that is yes, that was worth the risk to him. He knew the risk and he was like, let's fucking go, then celebrate it. You know what I mean. Like, this is what he wanted, this is the way he wanted it to go, and he knew the risk and he did it, and good for him.
Speaker 1:You know, there's that part of it too, like it can't just be doom and gloom. You know some of it needs to be celebrated, you know, like there's sometimes there's not enough risk taking, and that's what, like this whole message that I'm trying to say is is that, uh, is is not one of fear but one of adventure, but doing it in a way where you can have as many adventures as possible, you know, and not expire unnecessarily so. But if you do in the process of it, like yeah, hell, like if you really boil it down in in law enforcement community first responders, like a lot of adventure that we have is why we keep coming back. So, you know, we don't take unnecessary risks, hopefully, but it's not no risk. Like we strap a gun to your hip every day and go to work, like that's a risk, you know, just in and of itself. You're like you don't know what the day is going to bring. It's literally like putting a quarter in the slot machine and pulling the lever, boom, let's see what happens. And sometimes it comes up all cherries and let's, let's get after it. You know that kind of stuff. So, yeah, is it worth it? You know, and that's a question you have to answer all the time and you have to continually ask yourself is this worth it? And you know, maybe yes, maybe no, that's up to you as the person. But like you can't just turn your back on adventure either, like there has to be that, you know, you have to go seek that. And if that's what he was doing, then good for him. So I celebrate that. All right, all right.
Speaker 1:Last thing Let me see how far we're in on this. All right, last thing I want to discuss here. Last thing I want to discuss is the Democrats. Man, the Democrats screwed up so bad, so bad. They had it, they had it in the bag, they had me and they had Bear Hanlon from Born Primitive. They had us both and we were going to run on that ticket and we were going to arm wrestle for who was going to be president and who was going to be vice president, and they screwed up and they picked Kamala and whatever this other guy's name is. Like what the crap man? What the crap that that's? That's absolutely absurd, absolutely absurd. They called me and they were like hey, we want you. And I was like cool, I'm calling bear, I know who I want. And uh, and I, I, I'm not even gonna say his name cause it'll piss him off, but, uh, I had. But I had a state rep that I know from the state of Indiana and he was like yep, I'm on board, I'll be one of your cabinet members. I was like this is going to be cool, like let's rock and roll.
Speaker 1:And then they didn't follow through with what they said. They didn't follow through and, man, we were going to win. We were going to win. We were going to win. Now, not so Democrats, you're done, man, just done. Stick a fork in them. They're done. All right, okay, so, other than that, check out this episode with Deanna, like I said, greatest podcast of all time, and I hope you're staying bright, can you?
Speaker 2:hear me and I heard the recording in progress. Thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are winning already.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are. That's awesome. Well, I'm so excited to be doing take two, although I'll tell you I am much less professional and much less prepared. But then, it'll be good right.
Speaker 1:That is how I roll unprofessional and semi unprepared. So yeah, so this will be take two, and it's really sad that that was literally the greatest podcast of all time in the history of all podcasts. Go on.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I agree I mean I you know I'm partial, but it was a fantastic interview, like we covered so many amazing topics and had such great conversation. Honestly, I compared it to so many of my like breakthrough type sessions that I have with clients that I'm like damn it, why can't we record those, like they're so good? And then I get on podcasts and I feel like I'm like blah, blah, blah. I don't even know what I'm saying. Yeah, I don't know that that was any good, but ours was so good.
Speaker 1:You know, I thought so too and it's like I started. I started thinking about it. I've really been thinking about since, since we recorded, like how do I recreate that conversation? And I was like you can't, you know what I mean. All you can do is just piece it back together. So whatever, it's all right. So the universe-.
Speaker 2:Maybe it'll be better.
Speaker 1:Right, it's out there somewhere you know so well. I think some stuff that I wouldn't mind getting back into is like let's I I'd really like to run through some of your background again because I want to get into the stuff that you did, because you were really big into fitness before you were ever did anything with mental health and I and I want to cover some of that. So so let's kind of start over from that. And then I also don't let me forget this I also want to talk about you went to that Travis house, right. I would love to talk about some of that, some of that stuff. I've been listening to his stuff a lot lately.
Speaker 2:Phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. The dude is I. I I'm a bit speechless at how impactful his presentation was, because he is honestly he's not much. Because he is honestly he's not much. He is not different than most first responders that I have met. He really isn't. However, he's incredibly skilled at a succinct, like shortened, condensed messaging, and he's funny as shit. I did not know he was a standup comic Like that's. That was his sort of beginning in this. You know, like public speaking space, and he's military, so Marine firefighter and police officer and dad and husband and farmer. He has a farm now, like. So he's just like the well-rounded dude that, um, yeah, I'm kind of jealous that he can sell mental health better than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he does it in a different way, though. You know what I mean. Yeah, all right. So let's come back to that. Let's let's dig into, kind of like, your background and how you got to be where you're at being and correct me if I'm saying this wrong a trauma focused licensed clinician, right, okay, cool, all right. So let's run through that.
Speaker 2:Sure, like well, you wanted to start in the fitness spot, or like how far back do you want to go?
Speaker 1:Let's go back to like I like high school, you know and and like how you got from like there, whatever you're doing there, whether it's sports or whatever into you know kind of where you're at now, cause it was. It's an interesting cause like you talk about like Travis and how, and you listen to his story and it's like kind of like roundabout Right, and like that's kind of what I got from you last time too is kind of like kind of wove in between things and then all of a sudden land here, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I guess. So All right, so let's see, I'm trying. It's so strange how, like parts of my life don't really meld. It's almost like I've lived nine lives. Is is really how it feels, um, but I will say that sort of some pivotal moments.
Speaker 2:I wanted to be an athlete. But I'm not an athlete, like I'm not skilled. I remember I I tried to play softball and they called me I can't remember the nickname, but it was basically like the Marilyn Monroe, like what the hell is she doing here? Like let's put up a mirror in the dugout. Like I didn't get taken seriously at all. I could not throw a ball. I did not have like skills.
Speaker 2:I was a dancer. I had started dancing and you know, not any good, but I want I liked it and then joined the dance team at school I was a song leader, cheerleader, um, and I was just obsessed. It was probably the eating disorder, but I became obsessed with fitness and nutrition and that was actually my first major in college was foods and nutrition. I wanted to change the world through food and I learned the reality of that wasn't how I viewed it. So I met with someone at the college and they said you know the reality of getting a, becoming a registered dietitian, is working in hospitals and airlines and hotels, and I'm like, yeah, I don't want any of that. Like I'll work with athletes. I wanted to work with athletes. I wanted to work with, you know, high performers, but so I abandoned that In high school. So this was 1987, I'm watching Lethal Weapon in the movie theater and I immediately was like that's it, that's what I want to do. That's it. I want to be that woman in the police department talking with the police officers with their struggles and after critical incidents. And clearly she's seeing this veteran who's having some PTSD and she keeps saying you know, okay, come talk to me. And I'm like that's what I want to do. I don't know what that is, I don't know how to get there, but that's what I want to do. Don't know how to get there, but that's what I want to do.
Speaker 2:Um, my first um, sort of ping-ponging. But my first gym membership, um was I was um 15 and I rode my stepdad's 10 speed to the gym. That's how like committed I was. And I worked out every single day until I learned like, oh, you should probably take a rest day, um, but I was obsessed with the gym. I went all of the time, um, and then, of course, I got a car and then I was able to drive. But, um, so I um, let's see, like so changed majors a few times.
Speaker 2:Um, I thought that for a half a second I wanted to go in the FBI and looked into that and was like, oh crap, like I got to be like fit and I got to run and like I don't want to do that, like why do I have to do that? I'm not going to chase bad guys, I'm going to be like a profiler. And then the silence of the lambs came out and I was like, oh yeah, no, not working with criminals, don't have any interest in that. Zero desire. Like forget, no, I'm not working with inmates, not doing any of that.
Speaker 2:Um thought I'd go medical school for a while, looked at pre-med and taking some pre-med classes, and it was not the best at chemistry. So it was like, yeah, can do that, not going to do that. So it came full circle with all right, I'm going to major in human services, which was psychology, sociology and health science. So it was all the things that I loved human behavior and group behavior and health and wellness and fitness. So that was my major and um worked in a psychiatric hospital through college and then after college, um, but then had my son and stayed out of school for a long time, got divorced, like. I didn't go back to graduate school until I was in my thirties, late thirties, 40. Gosh, I don't even know how old I was. I don't even know how old I was, I don't know. So didn't start working on the degree specifically until after multiple careers. When did I buy the gym?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I want to talk about. So all that led up to buying a gym and being so. You did that before you went back to school for your degree, right?
Speaker 2:It was yes, it was around the same time because I actually had to take a break. So I started graduate school. After yep, I bought the first gym we were. We hit it out of the park the first year and what's interesting is I did all of my due diligence. So it was a franchise and there was a huge contract and so I had the contract looked over by a, by an attorney, and they pointed out some things and I was like, yeah, I'm aware of that. I remember he said to me you know, this has a shelf life and I said and anything in health and nutrition does. I know this is a fad and I know it's going to be, you know, just sort of a flash in the pan thing, um, but I want to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:It was a curves, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and I. Then I met with our CPA and laid out my business plan to him and he shook his head and he's like you're wasting your time, I don't see it. I don't see that this is going to be successful. Probably wouldn't invest your money here. And I was like like I left and was like, yeah, watch me. And in the first year actually I want to say in the first three months we were profitable. We were profitable in the first month, 30 days, so 30, 60, 90 days out. We were making money. Like it was incredible. And he I don't remember if it was that year, it might've been the year we filed the taxes he was like, oh, I'm sorry, I gave you bad advice. Like you're killing it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I said I'm really glad I didn't listen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know how that they would say that it wouldn't work. That model has always worked A women's program for four women, only led by women. Like how could not think that that's going to work? Right right, you know, it works in self-defense. It works in self-defense, it works in fitness, it works in, it works everywhere. Right, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess because of the uniqueness and you know it's kind of a boutique type franchise, it's one type of equipment these, this is hydraulic equipment. This isn't free weights, which women typically are not. In general, women are not the best with free weights. They don't want to go to a gold gym or some big, you know beefy type of the gym. They think they're going to get fat and gain too much muscle if they work out. And so hydraulic equipment made the most sense because you have this double positive resistance. It reduces the likelihood of injury, it's safe, it's easy, it's a no brainer Like your grandmother can learn how to use this equipment and you just walk people through the sets and they see results.
Speaker 2:And so in the I think it was around the end of the first year there was an opportunity to buy a second location, a second franchise, a second location. And that was never my intention. I honestly just thought I would just buy the one and it would be fun. And this is what I want to do. I did learn that I wasn't really buying a business for myself. Like I thought that I would be able to work out all the time. I thought that I would be able to focus on my health all the time, and that's not how it goes.
Speaker 2:You buy a gym, and now you have to do everything else the plumbing and the bills and the supplies and the invoices and the payables and you got to do all that other stuff. So that's not how it went. But so I bought the second location and I was a little bit terrified. I signed the lease a five-year lease on a piece of land that had tumbleweeds on it, Like there was no building.
Speaker 1:There was no building.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 2:And I signed the lease and I just hoped and prayed that it would work out. And it was the perfect location Like the best. Like people were jealous that I got this location. It was the perfect location like the best. Like people were jealous that I got this location. It was the best location.
Speaker 2:I was so fortunate and we opened our doors. I had zero debt going into that one and we were debt free within six months of the first one. So zero debt going into the second one and it was beautiful. So we even got an award for, like the, the prettiest or nicest or what most unique I don't know some, some, I don't remember some award for how great it looked.
Speaker 2:Um, and within three months of that opening, we had a combined between two locations, 1500 members. Um, yeah, it was really awesome and I had 15 staff and recognized I could hire a manager now and gain some more freedom in my life, so spent a lot more time with my kids and away from the gym. So. But then there came a time that I saw the writing on the wall by net. The financial landscape was changing and I knew that the first thing to go whenever there's like a financial downturn is extras, and I knew that gym memberships would be it, particularly this one, because it's special and unique, and so I sold them one at a time, about nine months apart, and made a stupid amount of money, like 300, 400% of my investment. It's incredible.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, yeah, and you know it's. That's a hard decision to make, but businesses are made to be sold and if you're not building it to sell it at the end, like I mean, it just better be a labor of love. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So and it totally can be both Um now with that, all right. So, so big into fitness. Um, when you were coaching, when you were coaching like primarily so probably first when you started, um, like you were doing the bulk of the coaching. I know how that goes Like everything there, primary coach and then everything else. But this is, this is kind of a hill that that I I will choose to die on Right. Curious what you think now. What do you think is more important? The psychology behind behavior change or the nuts and bolts of anatomy, physiology, movement, kinesiology and all that stuff? The science of, the science of, of, of training or the? Or the psychology of training?
Speaker 2:My default will go to the psychology of training. But I don't think you can. I don't think you can separate them and I don't think you have to separate them, but certainly the psychology behind it, because nothing will happen. You know you're not going to run the machine if you don't turn it on right. You have to be able to, like, make a change, make a decision to do it. I have a gym membership. Now I was just beating myself up this morning Like, oh, I've been like three times this whole entire year. Well, that was a big fucking waste of money.
Speaker 1:Well, just that alone. So, so, like. I don't want to sound like you can't. You can be like a total dummy and told, be totally ignorant of like training and and nutrition and like stuff like that. You're like you can't.
Speaker 1:But I think that you can be a novice or like a like a one-on-one level personal trainer and be really, really good with results If you really know how to get people to change their behaviors, and that, to me, is always the thing. It's like. It's like just that that example that you just used, right, so you're beating yourself up over not going to the gym. That's a behavioral change that we need to make. Now, how, as a coach, do I need to effectively like, augment you and your systems and your processes in order to change that behavior? And and when?
Speaker 1:I've tried breaking it down like you know a million different ways and it always goes back to like I need to get you to change your behavior to get a different result, and that is all behaviorism. That's behaviorism and that is. And then and then you know you got to dig into, especially online training, like what I'm doing now. Like is so much more of like. All right, we really got to understand like. So you have to do the cognitive piece and the belief piece and like and really frame it and then give the systems to augment all of that. But there's very little, like you know, like, like, like knowing exactly the perfect program to put together. Now, if you can, then awesome, but like a basic program will go a long way, as long as I can get you to change your behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed, and I like that you used you didn't use little in this way, but little, um, that's what you want. The, the smallest amount of change towards the goal that you want will build momentum. So, the smallest thing, like, as silly as it sounds, get on the floor and do one pushup. Now, likely are they going to do more when they're down there? Sure, but my goal is like one, right, because we want to build momentum towards that behavior change and building habits, that's.
Speaker 2:The other thing is this it's a habit change. You know, it's like asking people to brush their teeth with the non-dominant hand. It's going to take a little bit to get comfortable with that. So, behavior changes, you're right, it's the big thing. But then once they begin to buy in or make the behavior change and see like, oh, look at me, I'm doing it, I'm still doing it. Now we can build on that and say let's fine tune some things, right, I'm sure that you you find that in your own coaching it's like all right, let's, let's do better here. Let's, let's build a workout program that's going to work for you and your goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's, it's. It's really like have you? Have you read Mark Manson's book the Sub-Large Not Giving a Fuck?
Speaker 2:No, oh, yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Great book.
Speaker 1:Fantastic book. Yeah, I love it, but I really like what he I think he calls it like the do something principle, and he sets it up like a flywheel where it's like and people always talk like I need motivation, I need motivation, I need motivation. It's like, well, you do, sort of, but it's like the motivation then leads to inspiration and the inspiration leads to action and then the action leads to motivation. So once you get this thing spinning, it continues you know what I mean. And then totally stop, it gets hard. It's like a, it's like a rower, like you got to like get it going again, right, yeah, the body in motion stays in motion, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's like so. So once that fly wheel goes and this is what you see from a cyclic standpoint with people is it'll go and they'll, they'll be making great progress. And it's usually like about half the half the length of whatever program they're doing, right, if it's 90 days, it's day 45 and they hit a wall, you know, and it's like gone. It's that that problem of the middle Right, and and that becomes an issue of like, all right, how do we keep this flywheel going? Or at least just like, keep moving a little bit so it doesn't come to a dead stop? And that's where I think that principle then overlays, like that whole Jocko Wheeling, like you know, discipline, discipline over motivation, like all that kind of stuff. The discipline of the action, one singular action will keep that flywheel going. And it's like sometimes it's got slug it out and it's like, well, I'm not disciplined, well, or I'm not, I'm not motivated. Well, yeah, that's true, but we don't need to do a lot, we just need to do one thing, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And when you lose motivation, that's when discipline can kick in right, that's the only thing that it has to cause.
Speaker 1:That's what kind of like will push this thing along and to kind of keep it going, even if it's not spinning fast, you know. And then really, when you start looking at like, well, what do you? How do you treat people with depression? Well, I need you to go home and clean out a drawer. Just one drawer, just one thing, you know. Go clean it out and you can bitch about it the whole time and say I hate my counselors making me do a stupid thing, you know. And all of a sudden the drawer is clean and you feel a lot better, you know, and that's, that's that same principle, you know, just applied in a different context.
Speaker 2:So true, so true. I love it. And you know, I think another big component of that, or a component that can be helpful when you have to implement discipline without the motivation, is being clear on your why why do you want to do this and getting clear on what the outcomes are that you want. You know, I dealt with this with my clients when I was in the fitness spaces. Everyone wants to look better and feel better. Everybody wants that. But what is your why exactly? And so when they got more clear like my elderly ladies would say, I just want to pick up my grandkids or I want to sit down on the toilet without holding on and I'm like, okay, now we're talking, now we've got some goals that you're looking forward to. It's not just look better and feel better because, duh, everyone wants that, but get specific yeah, those, those whys are, are hard.
Speaker 1:uh, because you really have to strip people down to their core and a lot of times they don't know how to put it into words. You know what I mean and I and I've I've talked to a lot of people like that, where it's like, all right, well, you know, like cops, specifically, right, so going through and say, well, why is losing 20 pounds or 40 pounds, whatever right, arbitrary weight? Why is that important to you? Well, because I got into a chase with a dude and we wrestled him, got him in handcuffs and it was really hard on me and it could have gone the other way. And then it's like, okay, well, that on its surface could be a good enough. Why? It's like, well, that this is a dangerous job we do and, like you almost didn't do. Well, on on being tested, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my life depends on it here.
Speaker 1:But then you've got to strip it down even further and you have to say, okay, well, why is that important? Like, what is that Cause? Like, that's still for us, like, know we, can we carry a gun to work? There's a chance you're going to get into a gunfight, you know. So it's still a surface level thing. So you have to really say, well, why is getting hurt on duty an important thing not to do, you know for you.
Speaker 1:And then they go through and it's usually it usually boils down to like, well, if I lose the ability to work or I lose my life on the job, like what is going to happen to my kids after? And then, and then this is this is really crazy, it's like it almost feels overkill sometimes, but like, I think you have to go even low, even deeper than that. Say, well, what happens to your kids after you're gone? Like, what happens to them, what are the possibilities? You know, and it's like, oh shit. So then you really have to like, make it important, like, cause it is a surface level conversation in a sense that we can die at work, cause we talk about it so often you know, right, right, you're right.
Speaker 2:You've got to get to the specific pain points for each and every one of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Make it very real and then and then that'll get you up at 5. Am when it's cold out. You know like, yeah, yeah, until you do that, then it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work. You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't sustain.
Speaker 2:So Right, right, right. And looking at the positive benefits and not just the negative outcomes. Right, well, I want to do this so that I don't die and leave my children fatherless. It's so that I can lift them up over my head when they get heavier and so I can play with them, and so I can enjoy retirement and like, yeah, getting more specific in the positive space too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Cause you definitely can go too far in in the in the terror direction, you know what I mean which is then going to like ramp up your sympathetic nervous system a ton and keep you just chronically just stressed out about dying, which isn't great.
Speaker 2:So so he and I love that you touched on that, and maybe this is a whole different rabbit hole, but I was recently doing some more sort of studying about what happens to the body when adrenaline and cortisol are constantly being pumped together. Um, psychically, like in their psyche, um, it creates this helplessness, but physiologically, it's blowing out your veins Like it's blowing out your body. It's creating inflammation, like it is so harmful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, say that again. You said when adrenaline and cortisol are constantly being released.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when they're constantly being infused together, it creates helplessness. Why is that? Because there's nothing that needs to be done or nothing that can be done, and so the body is left in this almost frozen state of constant sympathetic nervous system. But that's revving the engine at 7,000 RPMs, sitting idle, and the body is burning out, right, but you're not going anywhere. And so then, right, they come home and this adrenaline and cortisol is still going, because now they're met with their spouse, who's you know, got issues and problems they want to address, but they're like I can't do it anymore, I'm tired, I can't take it, and this is still going on in their bodies. Um, I'd have to dig further into, like, what the research actually says, um, and find that study to share with you, cause it was really eyeopening to me. I hadn't realized that component specifically.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I, I never, I've never heard it phrased like that, that that that those two, those two hormones and and, uh, like we'll create that, that helpless response, that that freeze response you know Right right, right, right.
Speaker 1:And then you know I think we talked about this a little bit last time but like one of the most stressful things on the job for me is those almost the almost shootings and the almost fights. You know what I mean and that kind of stuff. Where it's, you're going to get cortisol, you're going to get adrenaline, you're going to get all those neurotransmitters and hormones that are that are pumping out like you're about to get into a fight because you are right, but then there isn't one. And that's where it's like, you know. It's like, well, how many, how many shootings that you know? Like I had this conversation with one of my buddies how many shootings have you been in into? Like realistically, well, a couple, but how many have I almost been into? Hundreds, a dozen, right, hundreds, right. Like how many times have I had my gun out, like you know, at on a target, saying like, hey, giving commands, like I'm about to shoot this guy a lot? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And now you're left with the aftermath of that. Your body is still recovering from that almost, and you've got all these hormones circulating. So that is the best time to practice some nervous system regulation, like immediately. But what's happening? You got a calls holding. You got to go on to the dog barking. Call right, you don't have time to self-soothe, to bring this nervous system back down into a calm, connected state, which is really something you can't do on the job. You still have to stay in this vigilance. You know is really something you can't do on the job.
Speaker 1:You still have to stay in this vigilance, you know, yeah, and that, just that, that chronic exposure to that state is just exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, it is Yep, and you know the idea. Does your agency. Well, you're SWAT, right, You're allowed to work out on duty.
Speaker 1:Well, if, if we were full-time, that would be one thing. But we are hard, so I have to work patrol as well as all of the stuff, and we're we're pretty busy team. So we have, you know, a hundred plus operations a year.
Speaker 2:And uh, that's basically your agency, allow all of your sworn staff to work out on duty. No, you know what I mean. It's ridiculous to me why they should, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you would think that, with all the research of just employment in general, like, hey, if you give your employees time to work out on shift, whatever the job is, you will have less sick time, you will have better retention. You will have less sick time, you will have better retention, you will have better attitudes, you have better everything from allowing this to occur on on the clock. It doesn't matter what job it is, and especially with this, with law enforcement, you know, I'm not even going to include firefighters, because they get to, but uh, but uh, but yeah. Like why, why isn't that built in? And I almost think that they should start looking at, like you want to talk about police reform, like this is a whole nother, this is a whole nother rabbit hole. But, like you know, there are laws for truck drivers and how many hours they have to sleep, but we don't. We don't have anything like we can. We can work 72 straight hours if you can stay awake, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're getting into it now Go 72 straight hours if you can stay awake, you know, oh, you're getting into it. Now Go to a part-time, go to court, go back on shift. How many hours you slept today? Two, one, zero, you know. Like that's nonsense, right. And then it's nonsense. Not only is it allowed, but it's forced because, well, we got minimum staffing requirements and it's like we don't want to do hire backs and we don't want to pay extra money and we're not going to send you home, and it's like this is insane. I've been, I've been up all night. We had a barricaded subject, you know, and this is the actual thing, right, so we had, we were up all night with a SWAT call out and then, you know, a handful of us work day shift, so we go right into our day shift and then right back and then why isn't there sleeping quarters? Right, let's say you only got four hours or six hours to your next shift.
Speaker 1:Health, right, and everybody does. Now, because it's like a big thing, right. Mental health, mental health everywhere, you know, and you don't allow for proper sleep. The lowest hanging fruit for mental health is sleep, lowest hanging. So if you're not going to, if you're not going to facilitate good rest and recovery for your cops, then you don't give a shit about their mental health and stop lying about it.
Speaker 2:There you go, there you go, we're, we're talking it, we're speaking it now. It's true. It's true, yep. Yeah, so um I think, talk about feeling helpless.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I can't even stay awake on a run. Um, yeah, I mean, the good news is that, like you know, we do a real good job looking out for each other. When it's like dudes are having a bad time with whatever and or like, hey, I haven't slept. Or, you know, I had an emergency at home and now I couldn't get off because of whatever reason minimum staffing usually. You know, hey, I need some help.
Speaker 1:Can you cover my runs? Yep, gotcha, no problem. You know, hey, I need some help. Can you cover my runs? Yep, gotcha, no problem. Um, but that's like a saving grace and it's like, man, uh, it's like we're so good at covering for each other that it almost provides the cities, you know, and the government agencies with the buffer, because, like, people don't realize how, overall, how good we are at our jobs. Like, even even the mediocre cops are pretty good, you know, in the grand scheme of things, and we're real good at covering for each other. You know, like, making sure that we're not, we're not going to, you know, make mistakes, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep. And for your West coast listeners, those runs you're referring to we call calls, yeah.
Speaker 1:Everybody's different with that. So I know Travis talks a lot about some of those same issues, so what? I guess like talk some about that that. Was it just a seminar? You know? Was that what it was?
Speaker 2:Yeah so. So Travis's presentation is is really a training course. It's. It's longer than I expected. It's not just like a talk. There's a couple of breaks built in because there is, you know, good chunks of learning to be had. A big. The whole thread is his own story of his own experience on the job. But then, you know, highlighting some of the significant components, that that you're all exposed to, and that is critical incidents and other people's pain and how that affects you and how you're supposed to cope with that and how we are coping with that and what that looks like. And then the culture, the suck it up culture, culture that doesn't allow for any vulnerability at all. And so you know, weaving that into a two or so, two and a half hour presentation was pretty powerful so what do you think about the uh, about the suck it up culture?
Speaker 1:you know, because some of that, I think there, it's, it's valid. I think there is something where it's like hey, listen, like you, you, you need to suck it up, like this is not a job, just like football, you know, like there's a time breakdown and it's not on the field. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yes, A hundred percent. So I am absolutely pro suck it up at times. The problem is we're not good at identifying. Well, number one, we have not allowed for, um, any kind of breaks, any kind of vulnerability of. That was tough. I'm going to need a minute to catch my breath or I'm going to need a minute to talk this out, like I just need to wrap my head around it. There's no space for that, there has not been that space for that. And it comes from this military, um, uh, wartime, um mentality of, well, we got the enemy firefight right now, like you can't sorry, you can't cry about it, we don't have time for that. Suck it up and reload, Like let's go Right. And so I think, determining now like well, where is that time to allow for some regrouping and decompression while on duty and can we allow for that? And look if, if you can't allow for that in your agency because you're understaffed and because there's all other calls holding, then we're going to have to suck it up, but with the caveat, or with the light at the end of the tunnel, to say, tomorrow we'll debrief this, or tomorrow you'll get to unpack this, or tomorrow I'll get your shift covered so you can stay off. You know, that's maybe one way to approach it, so I don't know. I think the answer, one of the answers, is implementing a critical incident stress management policy, like agencies should have a CISM critical incident stress management policy and follow it and follow the best practice guidelines that have been handed down now through the International Critical Incident Stress Foundation. I think they know a thing or two about this, but it's still not. It's just not standard policy still, and so there's a lot of questions about what do we do and when do we do it and what's the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:And you know, just recently this incident happened. It was a fireman and this was a horrific, horrific call, and the message was from from their leadership, was get back on the rig and run more calls. There was no decompression time. Now he thought that he was doing the right thing. Could he have pulled them out of service for a little bit? He could have, but he made a judgment call and he thought that was best.
Speaker 2:Well, one of the firefighters was not doing well with that, so it came. You know, it was like 12 hours later and they're still up and he's breaking down having a hard time rightfully so. If I told you, this call would curl your hair, um, and instead of saying, okay, we'll bring a clinician out, he sent him home. So it was basically like, okay, if you're gonna have a hard time with this, get out of here. Well, what happened to? Well, we go to calls to treat panic attacks and shit like that all the time. Why can't we do that with our own right? Why can't we, like, come to the table and say what's going on for you?
Speaker 1:let's talk about it where? Where's my social worker?
Speaker 2:Right, right right.
Speaker 1:You want to attach them to our runs and have them go to calls with us and take care of the stuff that we're not equipped to. Well, hey, you should be here for me too.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, exactly. I would love to see more agencies have clinicians on staff for their people. I don't know what that looks like and I still I'm not sure if that would work, because the viewpoint might be well, you know, she or he is going to go tell command staff, or I don't know. Maybe they need to just be embedded a lot more. Yeah, be around be available.
Speaker 1:So here's an idea and I was talking to so we talked a little bit last time about peer support versus clinicians, versus all these other things that are here for mental health Right, and I was talking to a buddy of mine who's a peer on our peer support team and he filled me in a lot of stuff that I didn't know about. So it's like like critical incident or stressful run or you know, like nasty murder, stuff like that. They're on the phone and they're contacting the guys that are that were involved, you know, the officers that were involved. Hey, how you doing that kind of thing? And I was like, yeah, that's, that's good, that's fine.
Speaker 2:What do you do when they say I'm shitty?
Speaker 1:Well, then then they're, then they direct them to resources, right, so it's, it's actually pretty good. But I mean you talk about that, that tough it out thing or that suck it up. You know, and if I don't really know you, and we got a decent size department, like we got 500 plus, I think. So somebody calls me from peer support. If I don't know them or like I'm not comfortable with them, I'm going to tell them like yeah, it was ugly, but I'm all right. Even if I'm not, I'm still going to lie to them.
Speaker 2:You know cause I'm not, cause you don't know them.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't, I don't trust them enough to let them in, you know, um, so what I think would be effective, or more effective anyway, is like creating relationship over time, so you have multiple checkups with the same person reaching out the same time you know what I mean and almost acting as like peer support has to act like like little ambassadors, for like a clinician, maybe that's kind of in charge or pseudo in charge of the program, you know, and that creating the relationships that will, that will work better.
Speaker 1:I think you know that's. That's almost more like you know it. Everything in in law, in law enforcement and I'm assuming the fire department is the same way. If you really want to impact each other, like we have to do it, like we can't count on it coming from some you know memo or SOP or some policy Like that's. We know how that's going to go, like that's it might work, it might not, but it's going to be very forced. You know relationships and organic like hey, are you okay? And I'm going to check on you six, seven times if I fucking need to. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Cause like cause, even the guys, even the guys on our department, and I'm sure every department's the same. You're not best friends with all of them, but, man, I don't want to see anybody kill themselves or do something psycho you know, or hit their breaking point and all of a sudden they get into a domestic and go to jail Like that's nobody wants that, nobody Right, even from people we don't like. You know. So I'll follow up as many times as I need to to check on you. You know what I mean and and I think there's ways that we can do more just kind of organizational ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I like that a lot. That's so important and I think could benefit a lot. What I'm seeing agencies doing out here in the West right now is implementing annual wellness check-ins, and preferably with the same clinician that they see year after year, so that they can develop that relationship. And that's the point is to have this relationship with this clinician before shit goes bad. Now you know who this person is. They're familiar with your agency, maybe you've even talked to them multiple times on other incidents before. But you check in with them regularly and they get to know you, you get to know them and now we have a starting point. We have a bucket of resources that are ready. They're right here. It's not like let me dig out this dusty phone number and call this agency and hope to God I get a good one. You know, it's like oh, no, no, no, I remember that girl or that guy that I met with last year for my annual wellness check-in. I want to talk to that person.
Speaker 1:What does an annual wellness check-in look like? Like, what is that?
Speaker 2:An annual wellness check-in is a time to check in with a clinician. I use a set of questions that I implemented and you can even grab it from my bio. I want everyone to have it. I'm not going to gatekeep this stuff. I call it the checkup from the neck up and these aren't questions for you to answer for me, Like I don't need to know this stuff. It's. There's no obligation. Some agencies are implementing this to be mandatory, but it's not mandatory that I like write a report or talk about it. It's mandatory because it's good for you. It's like your physical, like it's mandatory because it's good for you and it'll tell you how you're doing and if your numbers are off.
Speaker 1:Don't get me started on that. We don't even have those. You know what I mean. Fire departments have those. We don't have very, very, very few police departments have mandatory physicals, not even fitness tests physicals.
Speaker 2:I know, I know It'll be interesting to see. I know of a large, large agency that's going to start implementing fitness tests, large agency that's going to start implementing fitness tests. And I'm like, oh, you better give them some time to get ready, because they were at the academy 15 years ago, like where do you think they are right now? And you never gave them time to work out on duty and they're working way too much overtime. So when do you think they're going to be implementing this? Anyway, not to say that it's the department's job to make sure that there's time and space for them to be well physically and work and take care of their bodies Not a bad idea, but anyway. Yeah. So this wellness check-in.
Speaker 2:I ask a series of questions and they're rhetorical. You can answer them, we can talk about them or you can just go home and consider them. But things like how has your relationships changed since starting the job or since last year, since I asked you this question? It would be. You know how is your sleep. How is your sleep when you're able to sleep, not how's your sleep when you're running? You know back to back shifts, but how's your sleep when you're able to sleep, not how's your sleep.
Speaker 2:When you're running, you know back to back shifts, but how's your sleep when you're able to sleep? Do you stay asleep? Do you have a hard time getting out of bed? Do you wake up before you're supposed to? How's your nutrition? How do you nourish your body? Are you tracking that? How's your weight? Not that it's.
Speaker 2:You know there's not some perfect weight you're supposed to maintain, but pay attention to those notches on your belt. Have they? Have they come out over the years? And how is that negatively affecting your health? How? What are your health markers? What do those look like?
Speaker 2:Do you know what your blood pressure is? Do you know what your resting heart rate is? Do you know what your fitness level is? You know what can you bench, what can you squat Like? Are you keeping track of some of those things? Are there critical incidents that still sort of play around up here in your head and pop out when you don't want them to? Those are indicators of things that need attention. Now we're not going to poke at it if you don't want to, but it is helpful for you to understand that those are weeds that can grow out of control. So it'd be helpful for you to understand that those are weeds that can grow out of control, so it'd be helpful for you to know what they are and be considering pulling those weeds out. Meaning go to a therapist, do some EMDR, do some other treatments to pull those weeds out so they're not going to haunt you forever.
Speaker 1:That's, that's. I'd call that more, more than a checkup from the neck up. That's like a full systemic, like hey, let's, let's go over diagnostically Like how is, how are our systems operating? You know?
Speaker 2:And shouldn't that be the case?
Speaker 1:It absolutely should. And I I that's what I was going to say is I was like you know, the thing that jumps out to me is how easy it would be to layer those two together and make it a mandatory thing, just yearly. You know what I mean? Absolutely Cause. I mean like I don't want somebody to tell me I'm not fit for the job, but at the same time I also don't want to be like running on empty and and sucking and being a liability. If it's like, hey, dude, like you are physically not ready, mentally not ready, emotionally not ready, and you're a liability, like for yourself, for everybody else, like you're going to make a mistake, and then what is that mistake going to do to you? On the back end, you're in no way, because mistakes are always possible. But if you're way run down, like the back end of that is going to be almost impossible to recover from, you will be completely shattered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to clarify, these are definitely not fitness for duty sessions. A fitness for duty is a whole nother can of worms. It is the entire process that it took to get you hired, at least the psychological component of it, which on our side of the country it's like a four-hour psychological test, a battery of tests plus a psychological interview, and that's going to determine your fitness for duty. It's not just, you know, a 45-minute session with me of asking you a few questions. That's not a fitness for duty.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's a big barrier is guys and gals might think that if they meet with the shrink, that it is a fitness for duty, and it's absolutely not. The other factor I have to consider if I'm giving this wellness check is are they being honest with me and are they willing to be vulnerable? And you know, I I sort of throw the buffer out like you don't have to be with me. It would be helpful, because then I can be more useful and helpful to you. But if you truly genuinely consider these questions on this sheet, you're going to be in better shape. These questions on this sheet, you're going to be in better shape.
Speaker 1:How big of an issue do you think that people being afraid of being not fit for duty is? How big of a barrier do you think that is to going and seeking help?
Speaker 2:I think it's probably a bigger barrier than we are aware of. I honestly think it is. Now, is there a big group of people that just think us shrinks are wackos and they just think talking about feelings is stupid? Sure, but I would argue that you don't understand what our job is. Then if that's what you think it is, I'm not going to sit here and say you know, how does that make you feel and what do you think about the color yellow? I'm not doing that. We're having a conversation. I'm here to help you optimally perform in your life and on the job. That's my whole goal.
Speaker 2:It's like I'm a coach. I wish I could be called a coach, but coaching is very different than therapy. But maybe a coach or having the title of coach would be a more digestible title, because I think that that's a huge barrier is oh, I don't want to talk to the shrink. Number one I don't want them to see me. Number two I don't want them to tell me I'm crazy, or I don't want them to know that I'm crazy because they think they're crazy. I'll tell you, because the number one question I get asked all the time is what's wrong with me? And I'm like that's interesting that you think there's something wrong with you. What is it that you think there's something wrong with? And they might tell me a few things. You know, one is these intrusive images. They think they're crazy. If they're having intrusive images, I'm like that's not crazy. That's an indication that this critical incident is a bit of a haunting and it hasn't cleared really from the forefront of your mind.
Speaker 1:What's an example of an intrusive thought or intrusive image?
Speaker 2:So an intrusive image would be the picture of that little girl's bloody face from the call I did last week. That just pops up randomly when I'm eating dinner or I'm sitting out of light or I go to close my eyes at night. This intrusive, gory image that really creates this, this feeling immediately, because the body doesn't know that this isn't happening right now. The body is just going to respond to what's happening in our mind and so when I have that reaction then I'm like, oh shit, I must be crazy. And now I have to stuff it and shove it away and not deal with it because I have a job to do and I don't want to be called crazy.
Speaker 2:An intrusive thought might be something like I'm crazy or I must be crazy, or, you know, no wonder no one wants me, or no wonder I'm still single, or I'm just an idiot. This like negative self-talk, but it isn't like something you are habitually doing. It's just like randomly, out of the blue. You know, maybe killing yourself is a good idea. That's an intrusive thought and it's like whoa, where did that come from and why did that just pop into my head? Well, another aspect of working with someone like me is understanding that thoughts are just thoughts. They don't mean anything. They're just thoughts, and the way that you navigate these thoughts is going to help you through them. It's like well, that's not true that. Where did that come from? That's interesting. Move on Right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so go back to what you're saying before I kind of hijack that.
Speaker 2:That's okay, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:So so well, so so you said. You said you know people come in and they're like well, I don't understand why I'm having these, these intrusive images. You know why am I?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to. You want me to explain that a little bit more, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why they're happening is because the brain hasn't fully processed them. I liken the brain to like a big filing cabinet and you know how to brush your teeth in the morning. Because there's this filing cabinet of I know how to brush my teeth Right and I know this operation, I know how to do this. And memories. Let's go back to a memory that has no strong significance. Maybe it's you know, when you got a new phone. There's this memory, right, oh, that was really cool and I spent a lot of money. But I got this really cool phone. It's nothing. I have no emotional attachment to that whatsoever. I ran a call, let's say I ran a call last week and it's still like on a loop. It's like a video in my head continuing to loop. That's why the intrusive thoughts and intrusive images are happening, because the brain hasn't yet like processed it and put it into a file.
Speaker 2:I say you know you have files of, of, from on the job. You might have your file for your fatal TCs. You might have your file for barricaded subjects. You might have your file for dead babies. Now are these, are they like nicely packed in a file and you can open it up and look at it and will there be no emotional charge to it? Maybe not, but when there is an emotional charge to it, that's an indication that it's not in a file. It's like swirling around on your countertop. So if your brain was the so new information coming in, it's like the bills on your countertop. So if your, if your brain was the the so new information coming in, it's like the bills on your countertop. They're there. Well, you got to sort them right.
Speaker 2:So the brain has to go through a process of where do I put this stuff? Where do I put this information? And these significant critical incidents that don't make sense, aren't logical, shouldn't have happened. Some evil doer did something. My brain goes I don't make sense, aren't logical, shouldn't have happened. Some evil doer did something, my brain goes I don't know what the fuck you want me to do with this. It doesn't make any sense. So where do I put it? So the brain like loops it, trying to make it make sense the best it can Within about 30 days. If the brain can't make sense of it and find a file for it, it's not going to Meaning. Now you'll need intervention, it's going to need a little help. It's kind of like the computer. If you are sending a file to, if you're sending a document to a file, if that little hourglass stays on, for how long do you give it before you're like well, shit, I better do something else. I better reboot my computer.
Speaker 1:About 27 seconds. I'm pulling the plug.
Speaker 2:About 27 seconds, right, and then you reboot the computer and hope that it will finally make it to its destination. But that's what's happening with these critical incidents. And the problem is you guys are too strong for too long and you tolerate this discomfort. One, because you think it's crazy and you shouldn't be having this, these symptoms, and two, you just think you're supposed to like get over it, like it's just supposed to magically happen and you don't want to talk about it, like I'll just avoid it. But avoidance is the number one symptom bucket of PTSD. So avoidance is a huge red flag. If you're avoiding talking about something or thinking about something, that's a huge red flag. That's telling me your your brain sort of gave up on processing this information and it's hanging out there in this magical land of I don't know what the fuck to do with this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and on top of that, you're getting more of those coming into all the time. Right Now, you've got this giant mess of just like piles of shit inside your brain, exactly. So when you're talking about this and explaining this, I'm going to my catalog of comic books and Disney movies, right, and if you've seen Inside Out, have you seen that?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, I haven't seen, I have not seen number two. I've only seen little snippets and clippets of it.
Speaker 1:I think you'll, based on this, I think you'll like the second one too. So all these memories go in and then all these little emotion guys, these little characters, then they're processing those emotions and they're sending them to the different islands, right, the different islands of of riley, and then, and you know, all these other emotions or all these other memories are getting shipped to long term. So they're like putting them in there and sending them long term. So they, so they're, they're, they are the filing system for that, so they've got stuff for all of it. And when the stuff doesn't match up is when the stuff inside of Riley's head starts going crazy, right, yes, and that's when she's in massive conflict.
Speaker 1:So so it's really, and I'm watching this and I'm like this is one of the best things that they've put out, especially recently, cause, like Disney's really bad at storytelling now, um so, uh, like, but I'm like man, this is really pretty spot on. Like you've got these emotions there. Some of them are fighting for controls, you know, like anger wants to be in charge. Nope, it's not your turn, it's anxiety's turn, nope, it's. And then when anxiety takes over, all of a sudden, like things go super, super, nuts, right, and there's like fighting for control over all of the environment and making really bad decisions. So it's it's very, very similar to that and it's like so so much.
Speaker 1:So why I guess everybody's got their breaking point. And and another kind of thought I had is, like you know, the, the, the intrusive images and thoughts that that can't get processed, the, the, the intrusive images and thoughts that that can't get processed. I think it's hard because a lot of times it's like hey, you see nasty shit, murders, deaths. You know, traffic accidents don't make sense. Right, you cannot make sense of this, but at the same time, if you can, if you do have a way to give it meaning, then it's a lot easier to file that you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't hang out and it's, it might seem stupid, but if you frame it in a way where it's like I, you know, even if it's like for me, it's like I can't make sense of this stuff, but I know that there is a meaning for it and I know that I'm supposed to learn something from it, and just knowing that alone, like all right, this thing keeps popping up in my head, right, that means I need to pay attention to it. It's like you didn't get a file. I have work to do on it, so it can go to a file. You know what I mean. And and and that's just a little reminder of like all right, why is this? Like, I haven't found a way to make this make sense to me. I've got to have it make sense. And and and you know, a big way is to just acknowledge like I can't make sense of this.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Can't Right and it's not a job to make sense of everything you know you don't have control over that Right.
Speaker 2:But you made such a good point about the meaning part that and and I would say I would offer that the biggest bucket of files for a first responder is the evil shit people do bucket, right. It's like I can't come up with any better explanation for this than that. Or horrible, senseless accidents. It's like, ah, like this, the stuff I can't explain away. It's just bad shit happens sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah and uh, it's if you can, if you can make sense of it or or or put meaning behind it. I guess, not make sense of making sense of it Like it doesn't happen, but but have a meaning for it. Um, that that can help and that's. You know that a lot of people with religious convictions much better with that, you know, than people that don't, um, the people that don't have have a lot of anger because they can't make sense of it. You know, and at least, at least from a from a religious standpoint, a faith standpoint, if you have those in place, it can help. You at least give it some meaning. You know, cause suffering is. Suffering has meaning, especially in like Christian context, stuff like that, like it has meaning, and even death and suffering. You can give it that meaning, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's hope, right there's. There's hope on the other side of this. That's where the faith comes in. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, yeah so there's your, there's hope on the other side of this. That's where the faith comes in. Yeah, yeah, right, right Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's your, there's your Jordan Peterson for the day.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I love that man so much. Such an incredible human being, yep.
Speaker 1:Um well, what else? What else you got, and you got anything else. I think that's. That's a pretty good point. We got through a lot of stuff and kind of a bunch of stuff, but that's a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we covered a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, um, all right. So the stuff that I want to make sure you so your checkup from the neck up, I just kind of like peruse your social media before we got on, so you're, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:I mean I I love to just tell people about my channel on Instagram, cop shrink, because I just want it to be a place of value and useful information that they could benefit from. First responders can benefit from that tool. I have that, that wellness check. You can download it for yourself. You can have it. Another a couple other things that I'm doing. One is creating a community for other cop shrinks, so other people who want to help first responders or are helping first responders. I'm creating a community like a collaborative of them and another I, I. We need to get together Like we need to. We need to have each other to support, we need to learn. We need to learn best practices. We need to be on the same page as how's the best approach and you know what's happening on your side of the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, what else I was kind of thinking is that uh and I was actually listening to. So I saw your your post with Travis and I went back and listened to a podcast Travis did with Andy Stumpf like four years ago and it was really um, but he was, he was talking about uh seeking help, like mental health, and I was like you know, there should be more of a pipeline for first responders to transition into mental health careers on the backend because, like, who's going to be more more apt to help a first responder than than one of us?
Speaker 2:First responder, exactly. I'd even be more apt to talk to a firefighter, believe it, or?
Speaker 1:not. I'd even be more apt to talk to a firefighter, believe it or not. Right, right Exactly Than just like than just like you know a random, you know psychologist or whatever. But yeah but that, that resource that you want to put together, is awesome. That would, that would be fantastic, because it's a little bit more nuanced, you know.
Speaker 2:Right, well, and there I that's. You just gave me another great idea to create a collaborative. I had been thinking about this for a while. Like I don't know, are these first responders going to actually want to be in a group together and talk about this kind of stuff? Maybe they do, and particularly, like you said, like after the job and if they're like in retirement now and they want to work in this space of helping their fellow first responders, that'd be a great place for them to go.
Speaker 2:One group that's doing this is the non-profit, the Overwatch Collective, and they created an app Although your app is really darn cool so maybe you want to put an arm on your app for pulling, you know, first responders together in this peer support space. But the Overwatch Collective has an app that they are doing that as well and they have all of it, like the helpers and the first responders sort of getting support from this, from that community. But yeah, and another one is a program that I've done called this Is Us 2.0. I just completed the first round with first responder couples. It's just a six week program to improve your marriage, improve your relationship. I don't have one open right now, but certainly if someone's interested. They can say hey, when are you going to do that one again?
Speaker 1:Sweet. I didn't prep this before, but can I put that that check up in the school group? Sure, absolutely. Share away, cool, and then and then. Yeah, so anybody that's listening to this Deanna is also a part of our Heroic Industries school group, so she is in there. I haven't checked to see when you were in last, though.
Speaker 2:It's been a very long time.
Speaker 1:We could use a little bit more of Deanna in the group, sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll pop in there. I honestly I forgot about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's me just trying to elicit free, free support and free health.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I am happy to help anywhere that I can Truly this. This is my purpose, this is what I'm meant to be doing and it gets. It gets tiring. I'm tired because first responders are hard. You guys are hard nut to crack, but I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate the work you're doing and, yeah, and just stay in touch and thank you Absolutely. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:You're so welcome, take care.
Speaker 1:See ya.
Speaker 2:Bye.
