Heroic Nation Podcast
The ONLY podcast addressing Physical Health and Mental Health for First Responders.
Host:
Anthony Shefferly
-Full time Police/SWAT (16+ years)
-Master's in Science: Psychology
-Tactical Strength & Conditioning
Owner Heroic Fitness/CrossFit Tactical Strength
College Football/CrossFit Regionals/BJJ/Kettlebells
Heroic Nation Podcast
Heroes, Antiheroes, and the Psychological Battles of Law Enforcement
All right, welcome back to another episode of the Heroic Nation podcast, and a lot of exciting stuff. Exciting, exciting, exciting. Hence the desk pounding stuff going down. So this is the first episode under the flag of Counterculture Inc. Counterculture Inc consists of a collective of amazing podcasts and social media presences uh, way, way cooler than than what I got going on.
Speaker 1:Um, anti-hero podcast is leading the charge with this. It is kind of like their brainchild and they're bringing a bunch of like-minded people together and, yeah, definitely check it out. There are so many, so many really kind of big names in the space that are that are being collected under this flag. So yeah, I mean, I'm honored to be part of it and hopefully they don't kick me out for sucking and I'll hang on for as long as I can, but they will have to kick me out because I will not leave willingly. They will have to fire me and then I'll create some chaos as I leave. So I'm just kidding, I really will make them fire me though that I'm not joking about but hopefully I don't, hopefully I don't suck and we continue to get better and bigger and spread the word, the good words.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and with that said, the guest today is Tyler from the Antihero podcast and, like I said, they're doing an amazing job building their platform. I talked about this on Beyond the Barrel, who is also under the flag Beyond the Barrel podcast. Is that also under the flag Beyond the Barrel podcast? Is that anti-hero is actually derived from me, so you can listen to that show and find out all about why I started that for them. Spoiler alert I didn't really, but Tyler did hear me on a podcast so one of my old ones and kind of got the idea back in the day to do this. And now here we are. You know X amount of years later they're kicking ass and taking names and, yeah, I was glad that I could kind of inspire you know, like him to do this. So it's a good shit all the way around.
Speaker 1:All right, before I get into the show, I want to let you know about the Heroic Industries School platform. It is an online training platform that is totally free to be part of. If you are looking for strength conditioning, mental and physical health and performance, it is a place that you specifically can go to learn all of those things. It's where I post all of these podcasts, as well as several different lives and coaching throughout the week. You'll also, if you want to have a training program, get your two weeks for free. So you join the school platform and then you are granted two weeks of training for totally free, and if you need help with anything else then you just post in there and ask you get access to me.
Speaker 1:Some other coaches and other people that are that are really trying to make law enforcement, first responders and the tactical population much stronger, healthier all the way around, physically and mentally. So if you're interested in that, click the link and I'd love to have you on board. So, with that said, enjoy the podcast. We talked a lot about a lot of cool stuff and let me know what you think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are the professional. Well, in between studios I got this like makeshift home studio set up, so like I haven't ever ran this set up. Well, I have like, but it's been like three months.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, everything's working. So what do you? Where are you at now? Now, like, where were you with the studio and where are you going to? I mean, is we were.
Speaker 2:We were at um first responder coffee company warehouse but he he was subleasing his warehouse from a leasee and the real lease he got into it with the industrial complex owner the leasee left, leaving brent as a subleasee with rights under contract, because he was a. He was under contract to sublease, but the owner's just running him out, like put it like, trying to tow the cars every chance he gets. And so the studio is going to have its own standalone studio. For the first time, it won't be attached to a building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he is the owner of the building that he's renting from friends with tim kennedy by chance.
Speaker 2:I think that's part of the problem dude, it's weird that you, you don't like, you don't know, like when people are assholes to you or ghost, you, you're like what the fuck? And they drew their line in the sand, which I respect. But we had people that just lost contact with us and we're like, oh, and it's like we'll go check them out. And it's like, oh, they pledged loyalty to the other camp, which is cool. Like I said, I respect that. I'd rather someone, a man, draw a line and say I'm not going to associate with you rather than play both sides the other camp.
Speaker 1:That's, that's funny, man. Uh, so like I'm watching this kind of from the outside and it's, I mean, to me it's it's pretty, it's pretty obvious. It's like there's one perspective, there's another perspective, you know like, why not have a conversation instead of acting like wwe drama, like that's what it looks like. It looks to me like like old school west side barbell, where it's like you know, dave take gets pissed at louis simmons gets pissed at this guy, and then all of a sudden these big ass, tough motherfuckers are all at each other's throats and they're all starting their own gyms and everybody's talking shit about everybody else. It it's like why don't you guys just take a fucking breath?
Speaker 2:And you know, like the only people that benefit, Tim Kennedy doesn't benefit from it. We do, Right? No one knows who we are. So every time Tim Kennedy throws a temper tantrum or something people are like, what's the entire podcast?
Speaker 1:Yeah, right. So did I see something with Dan crenshaw the other day, did you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I guess he's. I'm not making this up, this. He's really good friends with t kinnick kennedy. I did not know that, but um, we had eddie gallagher on a long time ago and eddie was like, when I got jammed up and he was wrongfully tried and imprisoned by the navy, um, he was like I reached out to dan, a brother seal who had the power to help me, and dan turned a blind eye to him and just didn't want to get involved. So that's what we said in a recent clip. Just I'm just regurgitating what eddie gallagher told me.
Speaker 2:And dan crinchall went off of the mouth at like one in the morning well, it's tex, texas time, so probably like midnight his time just calling us chubby and retards. But here's the thing is that he's got 2.1 million followers and he shared the real, like any publicist would be, like Dan, just let it go, laugh it off, don't give these guys a light of day. But he shared it. So now all 2.1 million of dan crenshaw's fan got to see for themselves that it's kind of just a funny clip. You know. We put music behind it and picked out his eye patch a little bit like it's not, it wasn't a, it wasn't like a, a declaration of war. It was just funny, but well and you.
Speaker 1:But you can tell me and you can tell where people are sensitive, if you hit, if you, if you make fun of them and they cannot take it. You can tell, like there, there might be something to this, like I said it as a joke, but holy shit, like yeah, I think we need to pull on this thread a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's under fire. Fox news hates him. They're all saying he's got insider trading going on and you know. So he's going through all that too. I'm. Maybe he just thought it was like more people dogpiling on him, but again, it was just we expected him to go. Y'all are wrong. Y'all want to hear what really happened. Like, absolutely, dan, let's hear what you you have to say like, but he called us chubby nice, very, uh, very congressman of him.
Speaker 1:You know, like you talk about insider trading with dudes like that, I don't know how you like that would be so hard to have all that inside knowledge and not act on it.
Speaker 2:You know, but yeah, it's neither here, yeah and I mean he he kind of went on and explained it a little bit he's like you, you know he's saying they're saying like you guys want all, all these congressmen and senators to not have any of these rights that you have. Like, who's going to the only and then he said the only people that would do this job are millionaires, because they can afford to. He's like would you want that? And you know that's a great, that's a great question, because you want those to be representatives of you. So you know, going on record is saying Dan Crenshaw, I agree with you on that.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Did I shut my bedroom door, my family's, so loud?
Speaker 1:all right back, yep. Um well, cool man. Well, thanks for jumping on. I won't take too much of your time today, but like let's kind of let's kind of touch base on on the anti-hero podcast itself. I want to talk to you about that because I know we've talked over the past what. How long has it been on now?
Speaker 2:like a year and a half or so you know what, when you were on no, well, yeah, when you started it I think it's been two years and it's probably been about a year and a half since, I think you've been on. You were. You were my first ever remote podcast guest first ever oh gee, I set the tone set the bar. And then you do, and then you did the nazi comparison.
Speaker 1:I think that was my first ever viral ig clip I can't believe that was such a stupid little thing and it was like this guy's a nazi, even looks like a nazi, even looks like it was more about my haircut than anything. Oh, that's funny, but uh so so what are the origins of it? And, like, I want to talk about the name, like why you selected the anterior podcast, so yeah come at.
Speaker 2:Well, I got essentially uh, peered off the team and I had a lot of time on my hands so I didn't my I'm not on brand for like and I'm not saying this to be funny or anything I'm not on brand for SWAT. Swat's still a government entity, it's an organization, it's a professional organization and I really do respect that. But I had the apparel line. I don't the way I think is a lot different than I think a lot of T not really even teammates. The chain of command thought different and so I had I just I was. I was. There was some hot heavy hitters on the team that wanted me gone, so I was cut.
Speaker 2:And then I had a lot of free time on my hand so I was like, well, I'll do this podcast idea I I thought about doing for a while and and all I did was really just do. I just did a couple days worth of research, the you would do for anything. I'm gonna go restore this car. I don't know anything about it, so I'm gonna go research it, so I buy the right shit type thing. And then I just stuck with it every week and the name man, I was gonna call it, I was gonna call it something. So gay, I was gonna call it step it up podcast because when you were like you know, when you're like I need you to step it up, like. And then I was like ah, this just sounds like the dance movie.
Speaker 2:So I really don't yeah, and so I was. I was literally picking my email for the podcast, because I do that with anything I start, I pick an email and I was like the anti-hero podcast that's bold, it's not bold, basic enough, it's not taken, and it kind of represents me or a lot of us in a way that when you go full on one thing of us in a way that, like you know, when you go full-on, one thing you know you might like I'm I might not be on brand, for you know, being on the front of cereal boxes and eat your vitamins and your wheaties and you can be strong like superman.
Speaker 2:That might be like. The guy that you know is the anti-hero that you watched as a kid, you know so. I think that's where the kind of name came, but the anti-hero is a varying level of however you want it to be, cause Batman, technically, is an anti-hero. It's all how you perceive. You know. You compare yourself to a good person versus some of your flaws and, uh, I feel like a lot of people can resonate with it.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, so when I saw, saw that, like my brand is heroic industry, so it's like I was like that's really cool. When it, when you put that out and that here, I was like this is gonna be fucking cool, whatever. It is like because we had touched, we talked a little bit and then when you put that out, I was like that's gonna be super, super cool uh, the name alone. And that was one of those where I was like fuck man, I wish I, I maybe should have gone with that. You know, like, when you see, when you hear that stuff, you're like shit. That was one of those where I was like fuck man, I wish I maybe should have gone with that. You know, like, when you see, when you hear that stuff, you're like shit. That was a good idea and I was so close.
Speaker 1:But but I really think that that the concept of heroes and antiheroes is super important, especially for anybody in like tactical world police, first responders, and then understanding that that is like that's not a permanent state, like whether you're the virtuous hero or the anti-hero. Like you said, batman, like Batman blends those lines and even if you watch, like the the newest um, deadpool and Wolverine, they're both anti-heroes until the very end and they have this like transformative process that they actually come back as a virtuous hero. So it's uh like, if you want to get into the like the psychology of it, it's really, really deep and it's really cool. And I think that on the job, uh, we, we blur those lines all the time because you can't, you can't work like, actually work in law enforcement without being an anti-hero. Some of the time, you know, with the more it gets harder to do to to blur those lines now with all of the surveillance that we have. But to be a good cop, I think you need to embrace both sides of that coin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I joke about it all the time. How could you know what's wrong if you've never at least been in the room with wrong Not saying you partook in it? But you know, we all grew up, we were all young men. We've all seen people break the law, we've all seen bad things happen.
Speaker 2:We might have just been like I don't want anything to do with that, but you know, uh, and it goes back to like the classic case of like the best cop out there is probably the worst family man. You know he probably cheats on his wife, he probably has a drinking problem. When I say probably, I shouldn't say it. Probably is a strong word, but could have some of those bad flaws that people just go well, but he's, you know, we respect the fact that he's a fucking super cop and he would die for anybody out there and he works long hours and he's well-respected, know, so it's kind of like the anti-hero, like we don't, you know, might not want to put him on the face of the company, but he goes out there and does the work yeah, it's, it's using maybe, maybe a good way to put it's like.
Speaker 1:The means might be a little gray of how he gets the job done, but we're all driving towards the same goal, you know, uh, and, and a lot of times the anti-hero will get it done a lot faster and get the you know what I mean like because, yeah, and ground all those hoops we were just talking to my podcast the other day about the psychology of why people like bad guys in tv shows, which makes you, the writers, turn them into anti-heroes, because they're like holy shit, these people are really resonating.
Speaker 2:But there's probably a very easily explainable broad reason on why people are infatuated with bad guys. But I think anti-heroes can do what real solid eat your vegetables and take your vitamins. Heroes are able to, they're able to, they're able to reach more people than those heroes aren't. So are there, they have their job. That each one has their place, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah and um, you know, like what you start getting into here is Joseph Campbell's hero's journey and like my uh, you know my background's in psychology, so, like this stuff is is awesome to me. I love this, I love ripping this stuff apart and I love comic books you can really see where all the parts but yeah, well, and this is why, like when DC started, they were all virtuous heroes. It was Superman and like Batman was different, but he became this like, especially in like the golden age of comics, he became this virtuous hero and it really was like detrimental to the company, because when Marvel came out, all of their heroes had way more personal depth, so you could see their flaws and you can see, you know, like the, the allergy attacks that Spud had and that kind of stuff. You know, peter.
Speaker 2:Wolverine smoking a cigar.
Speaker 1:Exactly Like just being an asshole, like, like that kind of stuff. They give Peter Wolverine smoking a cigar exactly like just being an asshole, like, like that kind of stuff. They give them a lot more personality and character flaws. So people gravitated way more towards the Marvel stuff than the DC stuff. So, but you talk about villains too, and it's like, without a, without a good villain, like the heroes aren't defined, you know, or the anti-heroes, right and then. And then you take those really popular villains and some of its marketing. It's like, well, how can we put these characters in more stuff? But then you give them more redeemable qualities and then all of a sudden they're flipping sides and they're on the avengers. It's like, how did denpool get on the avengers? How is venom a hero? Now? You know that kind of stuff and it's like, uh, it really shows you that like inside these archetypes, all of them like live inside of us, and it's like, which ones are we gonna choose to give in that moment? Is that appropriate or not?
Speaker 2:that's actually a really good point, you know. So it's what. And I was like you said what? What do we pull from as fans as living and values? And, like you know, I I feel like I can do more good as an anti hero, as somebody goes on platforms and advocates for cops and is vulgar not vulgar, but not like textbook.
Speaker 2:Like you know, union guy and I and I just have I can better help the industry and help us doing that, whereas if I were, if I were to go on and you know, I don't know like you look in the part like I don't. I'm not like a physically fit dude, so like when you look at me at face value, like dude motherfuckers in a beanie, you know, like I just like. So you have to have kind of replace it with other imagery where you know if, if you were like, like, for instance, if I was be like, yeah, you need, you need, you need to work out and be healthy, they'd be like I don't give me something good to her. What's the new drama, you know? Whereas if you said, hey, you need to work out and be healthy, people are gonna be like, yeah, I know, I'm definitely going to listen to you. It's just kind of what you bring to the table.
Speaker 1:So when you started the podcast, what was like?
Speaker 2:what was your ultimate goal of it? Uh, I think kind of like put balls back into police work. And so I would just, uh, I would just talk about things that were very uh, uh, vague and broad. They were problems in our industry, but they weren't particular to me or my agency that I work for. They're just problems that we all go through, as in a culture that we need to address. We're losing union strength, we're losing good candidates, we're losing guys as an industry every day and it's like we're just falling apart.
Speaker 2:And so I was like, well, I'm going to start shedding light on some of just the biggest problems and people are like, oh, you can't do that, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Like I can't say that most cops have ptsd because they go to fucking a traumatic event, a shift, and they start being callous to it and used to it. And then you know, then you have to learn to live with it, and that takes five years to really learn to healthy, live with it in a healthy way. Because the first five years to really learn to healthy, live with it in a healthy way, because the first five years you're going to be living with it but you're going to be storing it in the closet and it's going to be coming out at times. And I'm not saying you need to go to therapy by any means, but you, you know the five-year rule. Just with cops, with everything, just everything clicks and you're like, oh okay, you know, and then you can kind of look at it as a more for me anyway, I can look at it in a more healthy light as opposed to just dealing with all the shit that I see and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Now, ptsd is a funny thing, man, because it's like what causes somebody to have it or to deal with it, or to say it out loud, is totally different.
Speaker 1:So it's like we have such a broad scope of what could possibly kind of break you down as a person, like person to person, cop to cop, right, so it gets really hard to deal. Uh, to deal with it, you know, from an appropriate standpoint. And a lot of it is like, well, just make sure you have somebody to talk to. You talk about therapy not being appropriate. It's like, well, yeah, it might not be, you know, and uh, and there's so many different ways to deal with processing the shit that we see, um and in, in all of it's exacerbated by the fact that our structure as agencies is not built to support it. All it is is built to use this as a tool, use us up and spit us out on the back end, you know so, yeah, so, and then, to compound all of it, our expectation that that's not the case and that the people in charge actually do care about us, uh, is is like wrong, so then that kind of exacerbates things further and then we feel like we're completely alone in this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you nailed it. Ptsd is just it's per person. That's why you can't really put like things on it, because, like my one time, I reacted really weird to a beeping sound, not in a bad way, I just I like locked in and like my body posture changed and my wife was there and she was what the fuck was that? And I was like dude, that's our same tone out at work. We were on a beach at a lifeguard station at night and that lifeguard station just happened to put out in another state, just same tone, right, coincidentally, at a lifeguard station at night, and that lifeguard station just happened to put out in another state, just same tone, right, coincidentally. And she was like that, right, there is like that's ptsd, like your body is responding to, you know, a sound that you heard and you're snapping into almost like autopilot.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, but you know and my, my co-host, has a really good take on it um, because I remember when I first met him, I asked him you know, like how does tier one guys just murder people for 20 years and then go about living their life?
Speaker 2:And he said that he does think that ptsd exists, but he treats it more like an injury and you should never say that you are disabled.
Speaker 2:Um, and he said also it's all about your mindset going into it. So if, like me, and you are going into the job, uh, and we have people telling us, you are going to see dead bodies all the time, you're going to see, you're going to be in the room and feel the energy of people who are going through the worst day of their life and you're going to go live with it every day with them. You're going to be put in situations where you're about to pull the trigger and kill somebody and then you're not going to and then you're going to have to go to a call that is routine after that. And if you have people prepping you for this for years and you decide to put the badge on, I think you're less, way less likely to fall to symptoms of PTSD, whereas if you read the pamphlets about helping your community and then you go through that, you're like dude, this is because you weren't bracing yourself for it, you weren't preparing for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a hundred percent true and if you look at the psychology behind that, right, that's, that is that is framing appropriately and that's what. Uh, like, I get a lot of questions when I'm on other people's podcasts and stuff about PTSD and thoughts on that, and I totally agree with with with what Brett said about like it's a PTSD post-traumatic stress injury versus disorder.
Speaker 1:Yeah because that puts a more internal locus of control. Like you're in charge of that injury. You can heal an injury if you're just you're just fucked up, right that injury. You can heal an injury if you're just you're just fucked up, right. So, like that's a way better view of it.
Speaker 1:Uh, and and also like yeah, we, you, you see the pamphlets, you see the stuff like come help your community, look at all the diversity we have. Everyone is fun, everybody loves each other, everyone is fun, right, that's, but that's that's really what. Like, I know, on our like, that's what it looks like and it's like okay, come fly drones, come direct traffic. Look how happy everyone is be. Be a pio, be an sro. Like be these happy positions where everybody loves you, but they don't put you, they don't show the middle of a domestic when people are bloody and pissed off and drunk as fuck, you know, wanting to throw you into walls.
Speaker 1:And if you really understand that prior to like this is not an, if, it's a win and it's and it's how many times right, and it's like you have to put the frame and context to make it appropriate, otherwise it's completely inappropriate. I say the same thing about like like football, right. So, like my kid plays football and he's he's going to be a senior this year, and every football and he's he's going to be a senior this year, and every year, I make him read the label on his helmet and says this game's really dangerous. You can get paralyzed or dead. Now do you still want to do it? And it's like, yeah, I do, okay. So now you know the expectations. This is a violent sport, so when you get a head injury, like you, you don't get pissed off or confused, like it's what it is yeah, that's actually a really good point.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as, like, the subconscious of protecting your head, where you know this isn't out, we're not out there playing lacrosse you know, contact sport, but it's still like. This is what you are in. What do you want to? You are going to be hit every play it's not a matter of if I'm going to get hit this play, every single play. So I think, like the subconscious of protecting your head is all is activated because you are made aware of how dangerous this is and you still, and you give the green light.
Speaker 1:I still want to do it yep, and you know it's not healthy and you know that it's going to come at a cost and you're willing to take that risk anyway. That gives you a lot more control. And if you put that it's going to come at a cost and you're willing to take that risk anyway, that gives you a lot more control. And if you put that in context of what we do, it's like every shift. I know when I, when I put my shit on the same way I do every day and and go to work, that there is a chance that all these fucked up things could happen or shit that I haven't even thought about yet, and uh, and like that you take ownership of it and it really helps you prepare. So like this is where an ounce of prevention really is like a pound of cure, is like absolutely true.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another thing you mentioned there is that I think is really important that people don't think about and we don't think about as cops is like all those almost shootings, right.
Speaker 1:So like I've been in a couple actual shootings and I don't know how many thousands of like taking slack out of the trigger type deals where it's like oh here it is, and and I think everybody can relate to that because whether you've actually pulled the trigger or not, it like in your mind you've had like so many close, like almost pulled the trigger, um, to the point where your physiological responses are the same, and it's like you can have three or four of those per shift, you know, and, and the physiology is the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I actually want to pick your brain on this. I've never felt the physical effects, the effects that you cannot help, no matter how strong your mind is. Like there was one time where, like I was, it was the closest I've ever been between I'm gonna like probably do this and killing someone. It was like right, it was there, I was touching and um, but I held a position for probably 40 minutes. The next time this person walks in my crosshairs you know I'm not a sniper so I don't know, like what the mindset of a sniper is, but I had an m4 in an active shooter situation and they were like if he comes into this view, you end it because he's firing at us through all the windows. So, all right, I came, came to pizza that's going to be me ended up not being not happening.
Speaker 2:They, you know it all resolved itself and the next day I felt so that we got off work at four in the morning, five in the morning, when we should have gotten off at two and we had to be back in at 2 PM. And I remember thinking, when I woke up, I'm like, did I fucking drink that? Like what day is it? I was so hung over and I had no alcohol and like the whole day my head hurt. And I was like and I had no alcohol and like the whole day my head hurt. I was like what the fuck I was? I yelled at an old lady at 7-eleven for no reason and I was like I started doing a little bit of research on it and I I came to the conclusion that it was like a something with my adrenaline dumping.
Speaker 2:And you know the fact that you can't, if the whole shift goes through something like that, you have to come into work. There's no, there's no, the whole shift can't something like that. You have to come into work. There's no, there's no, the whole shift can't not come in. Everyone's got to come in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely A lot of it. I think what you're describing is just a lack of sleep. You know, because, like, even though you've got some sleep, because of the timeframe and physiological responses of all of that the, the cortisol, the, nor nor adrenaline or norepinephrine, like all of this and I'm not like a, like a physiologist, I can't give you all of the, the cascade of effects, but I know that all of that activation of that sympathetic system does wink the fuck your sleep cycle for sure. Uh, and then you're gonna still have those effects on the back end of that and that.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times, like, you get an actual hangover and, yeah, you're dealing with the toxins of the booze or whatever, but a lot of it is like you didn't sleep at all, you were just unconscious, right, so that not to hey, well, were you asleep or did you pass out? So when you pass out, you're not actually sleeping. That's the same issue that they have with, like sleep aids and stuff, where they'll just put you unconscious. So it seems like you're sleeping, but you don't need effects, positive effects of sleep. So you didn't get any positive effects of sleep and that's also why, uh, like, post a lot of a lot of departments. Our, our department actually does a pretty good job with this where, post incident, post shooting, they'll give you 72 hours to try to get your sleep cycles back normal, before they even talk to you yeah, yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 1:That seems to be kind of universal, from what I've seen too yeah, so, but that that would explain why it's like you're super short. Yelled at an old lady like she was just there, but you're from a stress diathesis model, like it's the straw that broke the camel's back yeah so overwhelmed, the stress and you're starting to dig yourself out of that hole and then, all of a sudden, more stress.
Speaker 1:You got to go back to work and uh, it's. It's just unfortunate that that we don't. We don't have any rules like truckers, where it's like all right, you can only drive for so many hours and you have to sleep. Like there should be something in place for us, cause, like we had the same thing. Um, we had a, a a SWAT incident where we shot a guy who was barricaded in vehicle and came out with a shotgun after like a three hour standoff. Um, last January, so almost a year ago and then that went from midnight New Year's Eve to like 5.00 AM and then all of us at work days had to go right into shift. They didn't even give us an hour to decompress after you know what, three or four dudes on our team dumped this guy. And then now it's like hey, all right, cool, debrief it back to work. We're like you gotta be fucking kidding me. Like, nope, go right back to work, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, and that's unfortunately. That's been this, that's never gonna change and it's been that way forever.
Speaker 2:And you know, I feel like we've kind of painted law enforcement, like you were saying earlier as this like come dance with the community and it's like a nine to five job and it's it's, you know, it went to the irish and the italians because no one wanted to fucking do it back then and that's why they were like, well, I guess we need to fuck a job.
Speaker 2:And that's where the pride came from, where the rest of society not understanding and I think as a culture we were okay with that In the last half of the last decade cops when I say we cops were okay with that we had our pride, we had our brotherhood and we didn't need the rest of society to understand. Or or you know, you know, really care about us. And then you know soros, or whoever you want to blame, started breaking down the brotherhood and breaking down the, the respect that society has for law enforcement, because it used to be like, you know, like your dad, like I don't agree with him and he's an asshole, but I respect his position as my father where now people are like I don't respect cops at all, like yeah, well, I think a lot of the difference is you expose the public, the normies right to a subculture that was hidden before, right.
Speaker 1:Like if you just work a nine to five, so you're an accountant, right, and you got two point five kids in the white picket fence and like the suburbs and all that Right, you're never going to be exposed to a crack in your whole life, right. That Right. You're never going to be exposed to a crackhead in your whole life, right, other than by total accident maybe, um, never going to get exposed to, you know, a violent incident.
Speaker 1:You're just, you're never going to be there. Uh, and now, with body cameras and dash cam footage and all of this, this technology, all of all of the normies, are being exposed to a culture that they don't have, uh, the mindset and the ability to really comprehend. So now it's like they're just believing what they're told, because that's what they do and it's well, you should never even see this. Cause, like what is this? That's why the Supreme court has a standard of a reasonable officer, not a reasonable person, cause a reasonable person would never do the shit that we do, because a reasonable person would never do the shit that we do, they would never.
Speaker 2:Oh, I never knew that, dude. That's like crazy.
Speaker 1:They would never even attempt it. So, like I have a, I have a, a congregate or a state rep right, that's a buddy of mine and I was explaining this to him. I'm like would you ever? Because he didn't understand that concept at first and I was like listen, when I go to a traffic stop and the dude doesn't stop and he's throwing a gun out the window and he's driving 80 miles an hour down an alley and I'm following him, would you do that? He was like fuck, no, I wouldn't do that. I'm like exactly. So based on that, you have to judge an officer on what a reasonable officer would do, not a reasonable person, because a person would. A reasonable person would never even engage in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's just like somebody you were standing on. You know you were with somebody. Let's use. Let's use the new vocabulary. You're standing there with somebody in crisis in a safe distance and and they brandish a knife. Right, you've had, you got damn anthony.
Speaker 2:You probably got near 20 years experience 17 that based on their body, posture and what you know about that person in this call. You might not even flinch or care because you know that, but you know, you know that you're safe and that nothing's going to happen, but that another person put in your shoes is probably going to blow them away like well, they pulled a knife out. You know because, well, you're an officer. You've had 15 plus years in training and putting your body through this over and over in your mind, through this, like you know, I never knew that that's crazy. Well, I never realized that it's a reasonable officer, not a reasonable person. That's cool, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's super important to understand about police action, shootings and use of force. And that's where, like 2020, like here and like seeing all these dipshits on the internet about like, oh, the police can do this. It's like, no, like you don't even understand, uh, granby Connor, tennessee, versus Garner the reasonableness objective. Like you, if you don't understand these base level things, you have no business in the conversation. It'd be like me talking about calculus with somebody like I can tell you what it is and that's about it, but but like, like I am not good at math. I've never been good at math, but for some reason, I think I have, uh, the right to have an opinion about calculus.
Speaker 2:Like I say this all the time, dude, all the time, even the most respectful places that make your meat. If you were scrolling eating your chicken nuggets and you saw a video, you'd be like, oh don't want to watch that and you keep scrolling because it's just something. You're like I know what happens. They provide me these chicken nuggies and I'm going to eat them and I respect the fact that I don't. They don't make me know what happens to get these chicken nuggies. It's the same thing. Law enforcement is providing you a service. You know, and it's like man when. When Karen calls about, you know and it's like man when, when karen calls about, you know the, the weird person on the side yard at midnight and you go out there and you know you're a hero in her eyes. But she might be the same person at 9 am to be sipping coffee with her other karens talking about how you might not need to be so violent and in her opinion.
Speaker 1:In her opinion like oh thanks well, and what's funny is like if, if, that, if that same lady did have somebody trying to get through a window, she would want you to kick that dude's ass right and she would have no problem with it. But if she saw that her neighbor was, and you know, say it was at her neighbor's house and she watched it and it's like, oh, that was too much, but not if it's at my house, it wouldn't be. Yeah, but it's like this inability to connect.
Speaker 2:Like the same thing, man, same exact thing and it's that, and it's also me as a person and me as a father and a husband like I don't have to risk, risk my safety and health for you to feel better about an apprehension. I'm so sorry, that's not how it works. I'm, you know people are like why does it? Why does it take five guys to you know five cops or beat the show's guy? No, it's taking five cops to arrest this dude because he's high as shit. He just committed a couple felonies and they're actually trying to safely apprehend him, rather than it's one-on-one and you ain't, no, nobody's coming for me. It's probably going to be the worst outcome for that dude. Like. Worst because I'm not high, I can feel everything and you know so it's a lot of this.
Speaker 2:You know jiu-jitsu stuff. I absolutely go train jiu-jitsu go because it's, you know it's a great pastime. I've never heard of any Anybody quit it and go. That shit sucked. I hated it. I've only heard good things. But at the end of the day, I am not required To go do Jiu Jitsu Three times a week To safely apprehend you. If, you, if, if it fucking face as hard as I can multiple times until you're either going or you comply and that's just that's, and I don't have a no, none of the policies are being rewritten, saying you can't use anything you've ever been able to use.
Speaker 1:They just want you to use bjj because it looks better yeah, well, and this, oh man, so like now, now you're starting to get into, like the, the marketing of jujitsu coaches in the space of law enforcement, ie, the gracies, um and so so funny story, uh, when, when they really do. You see that safe rap system that they released a while back? Yeah, so like it's, it's a fucking twisted arm control, and I saw that and I started making some posts and sharing some people's posts. It's kind of like your Tim Kennedy thing on a way lower scale, right, yeah, yeah, about what's his name Henner, gracie and like, dude, this is bullshit. Like you can't just claim this is safe and sell it to you know agencies and I got blocked. So he blocked me. I can't get into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I got like Jiu-Jitsu is great and it's great for a lot of stuff, but it's still like you can still strike, you can still break people's noses, like, and you want to talk about de-escalation? I'm a firm believer that a lot of times, de-escalation is increasing the violence as hard as you can within the law. For one time you know what I mean Like if I elbow you and I break your collarbone, you know, let's say right, you're not going to fight anymore. Depending on the context, like that might be totally appropriate. Uh, I've had a lot of fights that I've ended with a punch that was landed square. The dude didn't want to fight anymore and then I used jujitsu to handcuff him right yeah, and a lot of it de-escalates itself the entire time yes, it takes.
Speaker 1:It takes variables away. Right, it takes variables away. So if I try to use jujitsu and it's not really time for jujitsu control, like you're going to have to dance around and you're going to have to work takedowns and stuff like that Versus, if I do more of like an MMA style, I hit you with a with a palm heel and then I hit you with a takedown and then I hit you with a joint lock, that's going to work pretty good, but it's it's making sure that your training matches your skill set and matches the context and that could be strikes. Jiu-jitsu wrestling I mean high school wrestling is probably the best thing to take for anybody you know that wants to get in law enforcement.
Speaker 2:Like, make sure you're wrestling well, something you do, that that routinely for years, especially at a young age. You are now. You could wrestle in high school and never do anything else and you'll be 45 years old still resorting to what you know and, like you said, that's all you need. You just need to have the experience of taking down another human being and over like I haven't done bjjJ, probably since I was a combative instructor in the Army and after that dude, the Army has since revised their stuff, but it was brutal and I was like I don't want anything. It was way. It was 2012, before the BJJ hype, and but I still just I fall right to my fundamentals. You know side mount is not hard. When you've done a side mount for two years, three days a week, you know, and it will never be hard for you. You will go into it when you call that, um, not subconsciously, but you will go to it without thinking involuntarily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, just you do what you do and like I wrestled a little bit in high school, so like, even when I got on the street and you went through you know our, our DTs program not bad but I found myself still going like dudes would go to base up after I'd tackle them and when I was new and I'd see this position with their elbow up pushing up and I I a couple of times I started to nelson and I'm like no, no, this isn't good here. I don't want to roll him back to his back and let him fight more. I want to cuff him up right now. So, but yeah, it's just these, these things that you learn, even years ago, like you know, and especially high school, wrestling is super stressful, like it.
Speaker 2:Did you wrestle at all no, but I remember seeing like I didn't want, like that was the first time you know, because growing up playing team sports that you lose You're losing with 26, 30 dudes. Wrestling was very like some of the dudes. I'm like man, just like. I couldn't imagine like getting mopped up in front of all of your friends in the school Like at a one on one. And now you learn as an adult you're like I respect anybody that steps out there. There's no loser. But as a kid kid it's like losing a fight in the cafeteria forever. And I just always thought I didn't have the balls at the time to do an individual sport like that. That wasn't like tennis, it was like you know. It was like not barbarianism, but it is oh, it's pretty close.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I'm saying, and it's like one man wins and you're in fucking 10th grade like it's respectable for sure it's, it's legitimately the things that you can.
Speaker 1:You can do. Where I can put my kid on a wrestling mat, say, go get into a fight, and it's totally acceptable. There's some rules, obviously. But uh, but it's a fight man, you're gonna pin the other kid down until until he quits. Or they say that's enough, and uh, and it can go for six minutes, and that's a shitload of time to be in a grappling match with somebody. Six minutes is awful, yeah, um, but yeah, like it is. It is so stressful, though, that it is like the stuff that you learn there, under that high stress and to execute it, or you're gonna get smashed, right, like I know, if somebody gets into my legs, I'm going to get taken down, I'm going to get smashed, it's going to hurt. So now, if you touch my legs, I'm automatically getting my hips back, and I'll do that forever. Right, it's a stressful environment. That's going to be my default constantly, forever.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah and, like I said, that's some comfortable, confident people that can go.
Speaker 2:Do that at such a young age, not caring what anybody thinks, like I won, I lost. You're dealing with that at a young age where people may never have to actually face the fact that they lost something because they're those types of people that always embed themselves in social events or team sports. You know, and it's like you know, as a very young man, you're learning like this was all because of me. Not that I'm a bad wrestler, not that I'm a bad person, but this is all essentially my fault that this happened, and I can either train harder or get in a different weight class or quit because it's not for me. And those are just huge tasks to take on mentally at 10th grade in my opinion, oh, 100%.
Speaker 1:Team sports are amazing for a lot of things. You see, so much work within like all right, what's my role here? I got to work as a team. How are we going to collectively come to this goal? And I think that those are are instrumental to development of like healthy people, uh, in productive people and jobs and that kind of stuff. You can always tell people that only have done individual sports Uh. But you can also tell people that have never done any any individual sport, where it's like no man, you lost that race Cause you're slow, like it's you like nobody else's fault, right? You lost that wrestling match because you weren't as good as the other dude.
Speaker 1:There is a way around that, like you're you lost because of you and it's like all right. I guess I can push this off on anybody else, uh yeah, and it teaches you also life's not fair.
Speaker 2:Man, god has a plan. When, like man, why am I up against this guy? Like I, like the dude, the fucking guy that's never lost and he's you know, he's the biggest guy in your class and you're like you're, you know, you're just telling yourself like I'm gonna lose. So you know, and it's like why? Why, man, it's not fair, like no, it's. That's just how life is. You know, no one else had to face him. You did, and you know, and then that kind of sets you up for why am I lost? But now I know I can, I can face things like that and I'm not afraid to you know, and getting philosophical again.
Speaker 1:But well, yeah, and it's like how do you lose? Um, maybe gracefully, but also like, what do you gain from the loss? Because if it's just a loss and it just drives you down a negative hole, then it was a loss, right. But if you lose and you're like, all right, like you never win everything all your life, like that doesn't happen, um, so now, what can you take from this? In order to lose less, you know and and that's naturally important I was listening to a, uh, a podcast with Jordan Peterson. I can't remember what he was talking to, but they came to the, to the point that you know sports in general. The big, the biggest, most important thing you get from playing sports is learning how to lose and learning how to bounce back from loss.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause I think, statistically, what they said was like like you'll, it doesn't matter who it is in the career, that your lifespan of playing sports, all of them right, you lose a lot more than you win, so why do you keep doing? You know it's like well, it's to learn to lose and to learn how to deal with that.
Speaker 2:I was like well, that makes a shit ton of sense well, I mean, just look at what the things that we're doing now. I mean you're I don't want to speak for you, but you're probably close to be done working for the man and take on new ventures in your life. But I mean, like I said, I tell everybody all the time I was very much inspired by a lot of your ambitions to do stuff outside of law enforcement, and so I've launched many things, and how many things have failed.
Speaker 2:How many things I did. Many things have failed, right. How many things like I did not work out and you can either sit there and go well, that's not fair. This happened and I wouldn't or you can go. I'm definitely not going to implement any of these things, these factors that made this fail, into my next venture. And now your next venture is more successful because you know a failed business and luckily, I mean, I don't. I've had things fail where I didn't invest my entire life savings into it.
Speaker 1:That would be awful, but you know that shit happens yeah, um, and it's really like kind of connecting more dots here, like we talked about like framing things in an appropriate way for the job, but it's also like framing things appropriately kind of for everything, because it's like all right, um, my gym right, I Uh, I wouldn't call like that a failure, but I don't have that business anymore. Um, it, it did serve its function and I ran into some walls. I ended up offloading that and it wasn't exactly the way I wanted to do it, but it was still. You know it was. It was a win for the most part, um, but would I like to have that probably, you know, still, but, so now I look at that and I'm like, well, that wasn't fair.
Speaker 1:Covid ruined my gym. Well, it did kind of um, but how can I safeguard my shit in the future? And and like, like you said, learn from it and make it better, Cause, like a lot of the stuff that you create, you think you have the thing right. So, like, say, anti-hero podcast, you think that this is the thing. Maybe it is, but maybe in a year it evolves and changes shapes. Maybe you move into this new studio and it becomes this whole new thing and if you don't have the flexibility to adapt and to grow with it, uh, like you're going to miss opportunities. And that's where failures a lot of times where one door closes, like six more open. You just got to keep your fucking head up, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even even your successes too. Like you just nailed it, Don't be blind that this is it, Like okay, this is the rest of the path. Because I mean, I knew I wanted to get into entrepreneurship but I didn't know anything. I didn't know how. I've never I've always worked for the government since I was 19 years old. So I started a t-shirt business because everybody was saying, like dude, I can't like a t-shirt business. It teaches you the basics, it teaches you marketing, teaches you, like, really basic business skills that I didn't go to college for.
Speaker 1:So, um and then at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:It's not, it's not like I'm wheeling and dealing, you know $50,000 deals, you know it was twenty nine dollar t-shirt with ten percent off, you know, and so with that. But because I was like, damn, I need to advertise this, but I had no money, I'm like I need to get on podcasts, which is probably how I found yours, and I was looking for cop podcasts and there just wasn't any out there, or enough that I could find. So I was like, light bulb, I'll create a podcast that's just the advertising arm for my t-shirt company, which then I created the Anti-Aero Podcast and that took off better than my t-shirt company. And then, because I started the podcast, all kinds of just opportunities are presenting themselves. Because of that podcast, which you said, I might be able to start a new career somewhere where the only reason I had that opportunity was because of the podcast. Just somebody I happened to meet Like hey, what's up man?
Speaker 1:Switching back to law enforcement a little bit. I know you've talked before about leadership in law enforcement. I've got some some opinions on this too. What do you think about like the leadership landscape of law enforcement right now?
Speaker 2:your hard charging sergeants and maybe some lieutenants, and then there's that fine line of mini politicians and, I think, cops at the end of the day, when they're like all right, I'm done, I'm hanging up my cop hat I'm going into politics and that could be at the rank of lieutenant, but we're losing uh, supervisors, the guys.
Speaker 2:So that you look up to the guys that protect you, do you know? The sergeant? With 23 years on, that, no fucking little piece of shit lieutenant's going to fuck with. Yeah, I want to be under that sergeant, and those guys used to be very prominent and they're retiring and no one's filling their boots. So okay, well, that's a problem. And then admin and brass that's not going to change. That's probably been around since the beginning of war. You know, I want to move up in rank. I'm going to not consider the culture Like who wants to tell the the position above them? We've got a lot of problems here or are they going to say, um, no, we're fixing it, sir, everything's great.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know good job man. You know good job man and all your troops are like well, that was.
Speaker 1:that's not accurate at all. Yeah, I think that that the structure is what the structure is, and I made the comment probably, I don't know, maybe a year or two ago now. There was there was some jockeying around in in the admin, right, we got new chiefs coming in and we're going to replace people and everybody's, everybody's jockeying for everything else and everything's up in the air. So it's like listen, you're only going to get promoted to anything above Lieutenant because your buddies with the people in charge, that's it. They were like well, that's not fair to say. There's some good ones.
Speaker 1:I said no, there's some people that we like who are good for us, but other people don't like them, yeah, you know. So it's like the only reason that they're there is because they jockey for us. Now you bring your resume up to the chief and you go I'd like to be a captain, right? No, you think that's not really how it works. I think that there's an interview process for this. I think that they just kind of like do lunch dates and people jockey for position, and that's how it goes, man, I've never, and you, you nailed it.
Speaker 2:There's guys that like, hey, if I had to pick anybody to be the new lieutenant, I'm picking this guy.
Speaker 2:He wants it. Okay, there's that. There's that, um, he looks after us and there's nothing wrong with growing as an older cop and going okay, I'm gonna go up the ranks, but I, like, I want to represent the dudes. You're, you're not. You're gonna have an uphill battle for the rest of your life. You know you're gonna be swimming upstream while all the cocksuckers are going right by you and uh, but I don't know it's to um, those guys are also few and far between. I just feel, feel like that, now it's. You know, it's all politics and you know nobody wants to stand up for cops anymore. You know, it's as sad as it is, it's just not even our admin.
Speaker 1:I don't know that it's ever been true, though. You know what I mean. Like nobody really advocates for us. Our unions, like I think you said it at the jump of this was like we're losing power with those more and more every day. I mean, the stuff that we have now with our unions here is basically just a defense attorney in case we get into a shooting.
Speaker 1:Like we don't really have any collective bargaining rights. The city tells us what we're doing and we kind of take it and hopefully we think it's fair. But like we don't have a very strong union presence and like who, who does advocate for us? And the answer is like if you don't educate yourself on how to advocate for yourself, you're going to get walked on and then you're going to get pissed that everybody's treating you like shit. It's like, well, the system is kind of designed to treat us like shit and and if you understand that then it doesn't get as as uh hard to deal with.
Speaker 1:Like there was a there, there was a, what was it? I got sued for use of force and it was a fight. It was like one of those fights where it's like dude, I got, I got cut up and scarred, I got bloody. Like it was a fight, right. This was like one of those fights where it's like dude, I got, I got cut up and scarred, I got bloody. Like it was a fight, right. This dude did not want to go to jail for a gun with an obliterated serial number, so we got into a huge fight. I got all fucked up. Uh, he got you know tons of road rash from where I tackled him and he sues me for excessive force.
Speaker 1:And I call, or I I talked to my my attorney, who was hired by the city, and I said, well, I want to counter sue because I've got all these scars, permanent disfavorment on my elbows and stuff like that. And she goes yes, we'll counter sue. I go, sweet, so fast forward, like three months or whatever they're in arbitration. And she calls me and says hey, they'll drop their lawsuit if you'll drop yours. And I go how much is he getting? And she was like what do you mean? I go, I know he's not dropping it unless he's getting paid, because I know how the system works at this point. And she goes well, I'm not at liberty to discuss that. I go it's not zero. She goes it's not zero. I said I want half of what he's getting and then I'll drop mine, drop mine. And she was like are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:She goes the city is going to have to take this to court and it's going to cost all this money. I go, I don't care, it's not pumping me up.
Speaker 1:So I was just like listen, I. And so I went on a little tirade with her and and I got on my soapbox and I'm like you're supposed to advocate for me but you're hired by the city, so you're really just a city attorney, you're not my attorney. I go who is advocating for me? I lost a uniform, I got all sorts of fucked up. I like I had to deal with all this shit and I almost had to kill this guy. Like it was a big fight over a gun and it was like fine. I said she goes what do you want? I go, I don't know, I'd at least like my uniform replaced. And she goes how much? I said 350 bucks, dude, I could have said like 3 000 and they would have been like done, we'll give you a check. So the city ends up paying me to drop my lawsuit and him to drop his. I was like this is ridiculous. Now you're paying cold pardon to drop a lawsuit that this guy's all or?
Speaker 2:like you're having to expose the fucked up, flawed system. And then you know you've seen that scene in uh, law-abiding citizen, where he's like he makes that big outburst in court and he goes. This is what I'm talking about. How are you gonna let me go, like you were just about to. You know, I murdered somebody and you were gonna let me walk out of this courtroom. He's like you're a fucking idiot and it's kind of like I was like you don't care about the money, it's the fact that you strong-armed them into. Fine, we'll pay, and it's like no, it shouldn't be. Anybody like this is just the job. The shit bag should go to jail. Everybody should say, no, you're not getting any money. Take it to court. The judge should say, no, you're not getting any money. And then I shouldn't get any money because it's my job and we should all go back to life. But well, I want to pander. And it's like you said, no one's standing up for us. You have to stand up for yourself and yeah, yeah, you have and stupid stupid little things.
Speaker 2:I'm the guy I'm briefing. That's retarded and I don't agree with that. And then I, you know you hype up the the room. The room agrees with you, but not a lot of people are going to say like that's stupid. So yeah, I'm my captain's worst nightmare in briefings well, at least you have them.
Speaker 1:Most places don't have them, man, and I think that's a mistake too. Like if you don't get any face time with the people you work with, it gets a lot, gets a lot easier to hate each other yeah, that's true cool man. But what do you? What, uh, what do you guys got coming up? I know you guys always got shit coming up um, we got the.
Speaker 2:The move to the new studio is just kind of like the thing. That's like lingering, we're waiting on some uh paperwork and stuff for that. But um, we're going to, we're starting these live shows. We're we're starting a media company called counterculture and it's just um like-minded podcasts and influencers that want to network and, you know, want to have with it. With a strong network comes loyalty, you know to to each other. You're not saying that you podcast can't go anywhere, but you know when, when we're all individually alone, we're nothing. When you unite under some kind of umbrella, you're a lot more effective in standing up for yourself and our culture. Frankly, I'm sick of seeing Black Rifle Coffee Company own that sphere, own the veteran thing, own the law enforcement space. Like let's just, let's hire on angry cops and and donut operator. Now they're, now they are the spokesperson for law enforcement, like that's it. Civilians know those two guys and so no, there's tons of law enforcement podcasts out there that talk about real shit and you need to hear them. So counterculture is literally we decided to make it literal it's counterculture Inc.
Speaker 2:So we're doing our first live show in Philly. What we decided to do is we're going to try every quarter. We're going to go find a podcast that will not take on the financial burden but will host the event. Hey, I know a great bar, I know a great pub, I know a great cigar lounge, I know a great FOP lounge. I'll orchestrate everything and then orchestrate getting the gear there to have the live show.
Speaker 2:Again, not pay for everything but just facilitate it. And then we fly in. We have a huge live show and you know we just do that in every city and in theory we're hoping it builds a big community and it gets like. You know, like we're going to Philly for a podcast called Good Cop, Bad Cop podcast. I'd never heard of them but hopefully with us coming, you know we have people in our DMs saying like I'll be there, like 40 people in Philly, so hopefully we're able to help out this small podcast and they're able to give us a platform so everybody wins. So kind of something like that we're. We're starting to push for a network that can facilitate all those things yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's an awesome play I really like. First thing comes to mind is daily wire. Like that's what daily wire did. Yes, yes, daily wire Um and then all Jordan Peterson and all those guys.
Speaker 2:And it and it called and it's. It's hard because it's businesses, you know, and obviously we all are ideologically aligned. For the most part, we all want the same thing, we all trust each other, but at the end, of the day.
Speaker 2:It is business and you're asking someone for an rss feed and they're gonna go okay, well, you know what? What? By giving you that, I'm okay with it, but what do you give me? So you have to be very articulate and what is tangible and what isn't like this is what you will tangibly get. You will be able to see it on paper. You will get this, and then you have to explain to smaller podcasts, because I was the same way when I joined my first network. I was the same way. You have to explain to them the benefits of being on a network that just you can't physically, you can't see it, but you experience it and so you know. But hopefully we'll get you know and we're the biggest.
Speaker 2:The hardest part is finding a platform that will allow us to. Everybody wants retard money, but they also see the anti-hero, the numbers that we bring in, so they're playing with. We definitely want the anti-hero podcasts on our network. So we're trying to get better rates because right now, $500 a year per show that doesn't benefit anybody. No show is going to. You could just launch on podbeam or spotify for free, yeah. So we're trying to work through all that, but once we get that done we're. We're gonna hit up a lot of podcasts and be like hey, do you want to be a part of this? If not, there's no worries whatsoever if you do. Um, here's what we plan on doing as a network, and and go from there.
Speaker 1:Cool, trying to think, man, I think that's about it. Oh, I know what are you listening to right now. I think we're very aligned with a lot of things, and music, I think, is one of them too. So, like, what are you listening to right now? Work out, oh man.
Speaker 2:So I'm weird. I buy music that I'm obsessed with but like a lot of man, like Kubla Klan, it just depends like they're very heavy, like that's a super heavy band. But I just downloaded the Deftones the other day like I just heard a song.
Speaker 1:I was like why don't I own that?
Speaker 2:song because I love owning my own music. I don't like streaming it. So you know, like pod, I know I'm old, because I'm going and downloading the hits rather than listening to dude I was just gonna say that how old are you?
Speaker 1:uh 37 yeah, dude, you're hitting that point, dude. That's. This is where I realized I'm starting to get old, when I was just like I'm listening. The same shit I did in like 2000, 2001, 2003 when I went to oz fest. I was like I'm just listening to shit over and over again. I'm like fuck, I'm getting old those bands are getting back together.
Speaker 2:It's amazing and you listen to like I mean no offense, I know some guys in these bands but like you look at that listen to octane dude, every fucking band sounds exactly the same.
Speaker 2:It's not. Now they're starting to realize it and they're putting out articles and like podcasts are coming out and saying like they're all following the same format and they all sound like soft dudes and no, there's no punk rock spirit in music anymore. You know, hey, if you do this for two years you will be. You know we'll let you on octane to pay. You got to pay your dues and be part of the machine that pumps out garbage. Or you could just be a punk rock awesome band that the stanley ozzy. You know, if you got to go out there and bite heads off bats and everyone thinks you're satanic but you're not like, okay, that's what puts you in front of people and as long as your music's good, it works. Yeah. Well, anything good and this has kind of always been the case, but anything good still.
Speaker 1:That's what puts you in front of people and as long as you music's good, it works. Yeah Well, anything good in this kind of always been the case, but anything good still underground. But yeah, man, I'm a uh like dude, zach Sabbath, like Zach wild, still killing it Right, like still after all these years doing like little underground side projects like hey, that's a great.
Speaker 2:I love Because he had he put out oh, there's no more tears. What was the album where he covered no more tears? But it was Black Label Society, it was Sonic Brew.
Speaker 1:Sonic Brew what a heavy album Sonic Brew.
Speaker 2:And then the next one was called Counterfeit God. No, and then is the next one was it called Counterfeit God?
Speaker 1:No, that's one of the songs. It's Stronger Than Death. Stronger Than Death.
Speaker 2:Those albums. They're so heavy. They don't follow any mainstream format. That's just a dude and his guitar writing the heaviest songs he can and I'm like man. Those are such good albums. And then 1919, eternal God, all of them are so good.
Speaker 1:The the first time, like you know, there's songs. When you hear the first time, you're like you get chills and you're like, holy shit, what am I listening to? Uh, the first time I heard bleed for me on the, the title or the opening track on 1919 eternal, I'm just like, oh my god, this is the greatest band of all time. And then I think I've seen I dude, I think I've seen black label society probably 70 times. Okay, no, there was dude. There was one time he did a tour, uh, black label tour. He was touring with, with uh coc. It was a great show.
Speaker 1:I saw him in grand rapids up in michigan, where I'm from, and then he came to town and we had, uh, we had a warrant that we served earlier in the day and I had tickets to the show that night. And when I was leaving I drove by the venue. I was like, fuck it, I'm going to drive by see if they're here. And I saw, I think, woody from COC and I was like, hey, dude. And he was like, hey, what's up, officer, you need to try to give me tickets to the show. And I was like, come on, took me on his tour bus. I hung out with zach wild for like two and a half hours. Just shoot, really, dude. It was fucking awesome. It was one of the greatest days of my life.
Speaker 2:I'll have to send you the picture yeah, dude, oh for sure, and then make this a reel and put it in there.
Speaker 2:It was before it was before I go I want to tell you I so I've always since I started this podcast. I've always wanted to sit down with the cop that engaged the Dimebag Daryl shooter. I have extensively tried to reach this man and every single person like I put out feelers on Instagram. You know 40,000 followers. That probably 15 replies from Columbus PD people Like that's how many columbus pd people? Everyone came back.
Speaker 2:He is off the fucking grid, dude, you cannot reach him. He um, it really fucked him up. One of those things where he was not you know you're probably going to get coffee or dinner and then all of a sudden the craziest call at a nightclub comes out. You're two minutes away, you go into autopilot, you fix the problem and then it becomes a mainstream thing and you were involved in it and they said that it really fucked him up. He eventually went to work for the fleet department. He became a civilian and then retired and changed his numbers and even his close friends on the job cannot get in touch with him and I was like, man, how cool of an interview would that be? Oh, sit down with like the guy. Like tell us from a cop's perspective how crazy that was and how you dealt with the PTSD.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that would be amazing. That would. That would be amazing. Um, I'm not far from there.
Speaker 2:I'm not far from there.
Speaker 1:I'm going to start working on that too, yeah dude, that would be awesome, but yeah, so when that happened, that was what year 2004,.
Speaker 2:I think 2004.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was in college. I had just seen that Damage Plan tour, like two months earlier, really, yeah, and I was looking at the dates yeah, it was my senior year of college, uh, cause I was still playing football, so I went in the spring and then I think football started, or maybe it was in a few months later. Uh, but yeah, they were in Columbus and I was like, well, shit, that's only like three hours away, two hours away, like it was an awesome show. I think hate breed open. Uh, shadows fall, uh, shadows fall. Like it was a great. It was a great tour and I was like man, we should go to that. And then that happened. I was like Holy shit, cause that was in December. I was the same day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, but yeah, I almost went to that show. And then later that next summer at Oz fest in Columbus, uh, they had that dude of the stage and they introduced him. They're like this is the motherfucker that killed Dimebag Shooter. And he was there. He kind of pumped his fist and that was it Whoa. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Damn dude. Yeah, because I went to Ausfist 2005. That was when it was either Judas Priest or Iron Maiden was the headliner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they headlined back to back. That was when I was there every year, cause they, they headlined like back to back.
Speaker 2:That was when I was every year. I can't remember which was which, but 2005 was one and I think 2006 was. That was 2006 was the last office ever went to Cause. Then it started becoming. It went from Asfa, started as a one time thing in like 96 or something and then, once it became the tour, I started going in 2002 and I went every year until 2006. And then 2007 was where Warped Tour definitely just smoked it.
Speaker 2:Like Warped Tour put it in the ground, and so Ozfa started consolidating back to single shows. So, man memory lane, dude.
Speaker 1:Ozzy was getting pretty tore up too. I don't think he could handle the massive touring, but I was pumped though A lot of those. Like every other year, it felt like it would be Ozzy headlining and then, uh, black sabbath. So I love the fact that, the fact that I can say I saw black sabbath like two or three times with the original lineup like fuck, yeah, oh, and on top of that man, look at.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you still do, but you're like man, I went from nine in the morning to 11 o'clock at night in the lawn, yeah, but I spent the first half of my day in a gravel parking lot with the sun on me and you're like, if I did that today, I would need like five days off. Work like alcohol or not, like just the, the things that you put yourself through as a young person to go experience an all-day concert.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, yeah and I would look forward all all spring awesome one thing and you would just be just wrecked and back from coming back from detroit or indianapolis or something. It's like a two, three hour drive and you're like I am falling asleep. That was ridiculous. I can't believe. I stayed for the whole thing yeah, good times oh yeah, man. Um yeah, dude, it's all I got. You got anything else?
Speaker 2:no, man. No, I'm glad you had me on dude. I'm glad we finally got. We were able to do this yeah, likewise, uh, you just came off a a raid yeah just throw the t-shirt on all right Every day.
Speaker 1:So well, cool man, I got to figure out a time to get down to Orlando and I can just bum rush your studio and be like hey, I'm coming on a show, deal with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude episode, we'll pre-plan episode 119. That's what you need to come on, and we'll then make it a Thursday, so that way we can do a studio session for a Monday episode and then you can just hang out for a couple hours and we'll do the live at 8 PM, and that, that's another animal, dude, that is double duty. Huh.
Speaker 1:Double duty.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:All right, dude. Well, I will, uh, thank you for your time and I'll be in touch, for sure.
Speaker 2:All right.
