Unpacking the Heroic Journey of First Responders

Dive into a compelling conversation between two former officers in the latest episode of the Heroic Nation podcast, where we explore the profound impact of life in law enforcement and the transition to civilian life. Join me and my guest, Tony Smith, as he shares his personal journey of recovery and the challenges faced in law enforcement, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic. 

We discuss the often-overlooked mental health challenges that police officers endure and the importance of fostering community ties to prevent burnout and identity crises. Tony, who has transitioned from serving as a police officer to running a gym and coaching, offers valuable insights on the significance of fitness for first responders and how it can be tailored to meet their unique needs. 

You'll hear about his new program, the "Aggressively Masculine Program," designed to support men in navigating their challenges through strength, self-awareness, and service to others. This episode is packed with actionable advice and revelations that can benefit anyone looking to grow personally and professionally. 

Are you ready to gain fresh perspectives on resilience, adaptability, and community support? Tune in now, and don’t forget to subscribe for more engaging conversations!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back to Heroic Nation Podcast
• 9:00 In the Background: Recovery from Surgery
• 17:30 Meet Tony Smith: A Law Enforcement Journey
• 47:00 The Impact of COVID
• 1:28:00 Psychological Insights on Law Enforcement
• 1:58:00 Transitioning From Officer to Gym Owner
• 2:29:00 Balancing Fitness and Family Life
• 3:10:00 Strength Training: Best Practices for First Responders
• 4:10:00 The Importance of Key Relationships in Transition

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome back to another episode of the Heroic Nation podcast. And if you are watching this, you see this brand new scar on my neck from not an attempt on my own life, but rather a surgery. So I had a couple discs replaced, which is why there's been a slight lag in editing and getting all this stuff out, so I apologize about that. Hopefully we're not too far off we getting all this stuff out. So I apologize about that. Hopefully we're not too far off. We're about a week behind, so I apologize about that, but what I will say is that there are several lined up that just need to be edited and put out. So that will be the timeline. We will be back on our every three weeks timeline Tonight, today, this morning, this evening, whatever time it is for you, tony Smith.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Tony Smith is one of the best dudes I know from north of the border, meaning Canada, the great white north. Take off you hosers. A Strange Brew reference. If you didn't get it, then go watch that movie. Good luck finding it, though you can actually find that on YouTube. I found that out the other day. So there you go.

Speaker 1: 1:02

He runs a facility called the Garage Gym and was a former SWAT officer and police officer in the Windsor area and had tons of experience with tactics and training and he's a conjugate coach, powerlifting coach, understands a ton about application to law enforcement, training and how to do the job, how to do the job well, how to be aggressive within it.

Speaker 1: 1:28

We also talked about 2020 and all of our favorite the era of COVID and the era of mandates and masks, forced medical procedures and all that kind of stuff. Very interesting take from someone that lives in a socialist country, which Canada is like it or not. Canada is a socialist country, so there is a difference in how you police there versus the US, and it explained a lot as far as how things got to the point that they did during COVID. So we talked about some sociological issues there, dug into some psychology and some training and had a really great conversation. It's really good, packed tons of good information into about an hour, so I would strongly recommend listening to it. Start to finish, if you knew, if you are north of the border and you're interested in working with tony's, got some really cool stuff going on with coaching and, yeah, man, it's a really great episode. Check it out and uh, look good it's our today.

Speaker 2: 2:29

My family just got back from florida and it was our day to decorate the tree because they were gone the start of december. I caught you at a good time, very festive.

Speaker 1: 2:36

I'll have to make sure I get this edited and set out quick. You put me on the clock.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, I didn't know, I'm like, I'm already dressed like this and I'm wearing my Titans gold and I got the USA flag for you. I'm ready to go. Yes, america, I love it. Yeah, I always thought that you were one hour ahead. I thought you were in. Indiana was like one hour in front of us.

Speaker 1: 2:57

Yeah, people tend to think that back in the day, before we didn't change daylight savings time, it was like indiana was like the lone state that was always on eastern time for half the year and then central time for half the year. It was obnoxious, so anyway. But yeah, we're on eastern time. Good, works out perfect either way. It wasn't gonna work out perfect. But, dude, how you been man.

Speaker 2: 3:17

It's been several years since I talked to you I know you came out of nowhere and the algorithm changes your feed, right yeah I yeah, I don't know Like. I came across you on a reel and I'm like, oh my God, and it was before you had messaged me and you look like you leaned out a ton, you look ripped.

Speaker 1: 3:32

No, I'm actually like, since we talked, when did we talk?

Speaker 2: 3:34

It was like 2019 or something wasn't it Long time ago, man, very long time ago.

Speaker 1: 3:39

No, that was did. I've probably put on 15 pounds since then. Hey, good, the right places, since I stopped doing so much CrossFit, right, like I just axed that style of training so much Nice, based on necessity. Yeah, getting old, yeah, I don't think that when, as I get older, because your gym was primarily a CrossFit gym to start, wasn't it? No, we were CrossFit without the complicated movement.

Speaker 2: 4:09

So I'm not ripping on anything, but just the more complex movements, the more practical. Movements take more practice and skill. So we were in between powerlifting, bodybuilding and CrossFit. It took a little bit from everything that I had learned and that I enjoyed.

Speaker 1: 4:22

So without the high skill movements, the like, the high skill movements like the high skill, like muscle ups, gymnastics, rings, that type of thing, yeah and not even just that, even like double unders, things that people are gonna have to practice, that might slow you down.

Speaker 2: 4:34

My people they're all in my age bracket, like I'm 46, I haven't even gone for 10 years but they're all right around me, maybe 10 or 15 years one way or the other, but they don't really have extra time to be practicing the skill. So it's hey, how can we get you in here and get you as fit, safely as we can?

Speaker 1: 4:49

Yeah, I think that's a. That's a big thing that I learned over the years, especially when it's I came from like as much as I hate to say it, looking back on it like a competitive style of CrossFit because that's what it was when it first came online in 2004 and then I got involved in like 2007 was like it was very competitive. It was like hyper competitive. So to be competitive, you had to learn the high skill stuff and then you start to unknowingly, uh, project that onto your client base when you start a gym and yeah, live and learn with all that man and I think, like you're, if you're, it's like it was like a sport, so you had to do things.

Speaker 2: 5:25

If you had a gym where people just needed to like they just want to play some pickup basketball, you're gonna just have them dribble up and down the court or you'll want to play real competitive. You have to learn to dribble between your legs and kind of stuff. That's how I see it.

Speaker 1: 5:35

The same thing yeah, that's a perfect analogy. I think there's a balance between a. We should probably teach you how to snatch right, but uh, do you need to have a perfect full squat snatch where you're training to be an olympic weightlifter? No, you don't. What are your demands for life? What are you training for? And then, what skill is appropriate neurologically to teach you? That isn't going to slow us down to a screeching halt with all the other shit that we're trying to do yeah, that's always a fine line.

Speaker 2: 6:01

They even say in our we love snatches, but we generally got to do them with a kettlebell. I love kettlebell snatches, dumbbell snatches. That's going to be a little bit more forgiving on, maybe, the misalignment of people's hips or their skill set. You can get away with a bad kettlebell snatch in more ways, especially if you're. Today we're using conditioning Form sometimes gets put in the back burner more than it should and you walk away from that client. You're not staying with you. We're doing groups. You're not. I'm not standing there beside the same person. I gotta go handle the other guy. We're always triaging that room right and moving around and you turn back and they're right back to what they're doing. So we're how many they're going to get rather than the how beautiful they look.

Speaker 1: 6:38

Yeah yeah, I think it's. It's important to understand the movement like kelly Starrett calls the movement archetypes, versus the implement itself. And really the only reason, or the primary reason, that I see barbells are important is because one systemic loading, but two they're just available and it's an easy metric. That's always been around, because you can squat a fucking sandbag and get really strong, but there aren't a bunch of sandbags around in gyms.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Yeah, I'm always trying to tell people that we don't ever need to get them. We have we're pretty much a barbell based gym we don't ever need them, we just love them and they're just awesome to use and that's why we like to do them. And today was funny through the conversations that came up. We we have a guy now who's come under me. Actually, I worked cruiser with his dad 20 something years ago and now he's come under me. Actually, I worked cruiser with his dad 20-something years ago and now he's working for me and he's super educated and loves it and I finally, first time ever, delegated the way to programming and this week he had us and the clients, the members, the general memberships moving like athletes a lot more. We were doing some lateral shuffles and things and people. There's like 45, 50 old people in there. What are we doing?

Speaker 2: 7:42

And I feel like people forget part of our job. We're doing general physical fitness, general physical preparedness. Part of our job is to keep you coordinated too. And how can we keep you coordinated? Making you connect your ability to shuffle your feet or maybe crisscross your feet like you would a football drill. But it's not just for the exercise, we're also exercising that, that neurological connection. I think people forget how important that is and that's where the triple joint movements and some of the stuff. Sure, there's power and all those things. But I'm noticing as I get older you know my ability when a kid, when my boys are playing football, they throw me a ball my ability to twist and coordinate, be coordinated in that athletic still is it's slowing down. So I think that stuff that we can do in the gym to help people, which is maybe helps them run up the stairs or whatever that is, we don't know when that's going to pay dividends, but we got to keep training like that, in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 8:31

Yeah no for sure.

Speaker 1: 8:32

And just to keep bragging on, crossfit is such a linear progression of everything. Everything is straight lines up and down. Very few things are side to side. Very few things are shuttle runs very like very few, and that's something I've actually incorporated. Two more is especially like diving more in, since I sold my gym to online training. Going back to the tactical population is we need to train running, but not just straight line running like we have to do some agility work, man, and it's got to look a little bit more like a field sport yeah, I, I agree with you.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Field sports a great comparison and I think even in general, my gym too, not just CrossFit. I think, like gyms, we train too straight or too linear, like we're not even just putting people in a staggered stance. Today for some snatches, like how that hits differently is incredible and that's just a staggered stance. That's not even shifting side to side. So think like we, as a general rule, for us as maybe like a general, like mistake that we're all making is that, and I think for you too with your niche man, that's something that's so important. That's something that you don't want to ever give back. Because side to side, I know we train to keep our equipment forward, that best forward, but you're moving side to side and half those places the guy like you and I go into one of those hitting a raid. We can't even go side to side. We're like you're pivoting, you're trying to get through doors. Junk, people got piled up, whatever it is dodging pit bulls.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Yeah, dude, I had a raid this morning and we actually had a house. It was like a. It was like a, just a flop house hoarder, just absolute disaster. I've missed that man. House hoarder, just absolute disaster. People hiding everywhere, dope and guns. It was like classic ghetto raid it was. But yeah, same thing. We're working more on CQB and stuff on our team and we're getting pretty good at it, and that's one thing where it's we learned from these high level military dudes and it's I don't know that they're hitting the same houses that we are with all of the shit in the way. It's like how am I supposed to stay on my wall and hit my corner exactly like you want it when there is? I can't even open the door because of all the shit that's in this room. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:36

Yeah, we would find that too, even just cross-training with other teams. There's teams that are dealing here, where I live in Windsor, were we're dealing with close, close quarters, man, and like small places, small units, and whereas up the highway near toronto, some of those cities where you know some of the bigger crime, bigger criminals, are living, but big houses like they're doing places where you could go six guys across just to go down the hallway to the bedrooms, there has to be a.

Speaker 2: 11:01

You go and learn from somebody, and same with fitness. You go and learn from somebody and you're like, okay, I love that part, don't like that part. How can we take what we can, leave some and then make it our own so it fits what we're doing in our facility or our city or our houses?

Speaker 1: 11:16

Yeah, yeah for sure. So just because it's been so long, let's. I'd like to go back through and talk about a brief kind of synopsis of what you did in law enforcement and then how you transitioned out and then you can fast forward. I'd love to get an update on on, like where your gym's at now and like what you're doing, because I saw you're doing I'm gonna actually pull it up right now so I don't misspeak but like tech, what kind of like tactical coaching are you doing? It's like like a, like a tactical I don't want to say life coach, but yeah, that's what I call it Actually the tactical life.

Speaker 2: 11:49

I don't call it life coaching, but I call it the tactical life.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Cause that's what I really think that I've taken away from that job that you're still doing and how it applies, and I think that kind of why we exploded here was because we were bringing a different perspective to people, and it wasn't about training to stay alive, it was more so the other stuff, the mindset stuff, that really caught on with people. I think that was the first they had heard that when we first opened yeah, I was a cop, for I mean, before I started, my wife was making fun of me. She's like you have to go on the podcast dressed like that. I'm like I go.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Yeah, I don't want to show all these cops what it's like to be like relaxed and retired. Got to rub it in a little bit, but yeah, man, I was a police officer from 1999 to 2018. Don't quote me on those dates. I know the 99s for sure. And I'm starting to patrol here. You're looking behind me. I love to do my podcast from here when I'm hanging out with the Americans, because that on the other side of that water is Detroit, so that's how close we live.

Speaker 1: 12:45

Go live yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:46

Yeah, I picked my family up just Tuesday and it's 45 minute drive from here to the Detroit airport and that includes going over the bridge. That's how close we are. We work in a very busy city and a five year mark. I don't know how it works there, but that's the first time you can try it out. Once you become a, they call it first class possible, so I tried out. I was lucky. I got on my first time and back then they had a full-time team but there's only 12 guys, so I did a couple of years as a probie where you look half and a half and then got my way onto the team and I spent 10 years there five or no, sorry, I think like maybe six or eight of those as a team leader all starting to slip me now.

Speaker 2: 13:23

We went back to patrol after being there forever and doing a lot of work and having a lot of fun, and I was able to. I was. I found one deficiency we had back then and we're talking like oh, six, when I started, right, I became the team leader and it was literally like the boss called me hey, you're the team, voted you, you're the new team leader. I was like I wasn't even 30 years old and there's a murder and yeah, can you come in and run it? There was tons of training on how to do raids and how to do this and weapons and all the different. You guys have so many different disciplines, and even more now that we did. Then there was nothing on leadership and how to lead a team, and so I leaned into that and started teaching that throughout the province as I became a senior team leader and I was going to the States and doing some of that too.

Speaker 2: 14:05

And then a new boss took over. He made a new rule about 10 years and he just basically came down and said hey, you're done on the team, you're going back to patrol. And I said I've done everything I want to do around here and I'm not interested in being promoted, which kind of threw him off. He said I'll be out of here in the next and almost to the day I thought it'd be in private security. I didn't think it would be doing a gym, but I got into the Jim Jones stuff and while I was still on the team I started training some people out of my house and next thing you knew we had 30 people in my garage and my wife was also doing police work at the time. She was also a police officer for 13 years.

Speaker 2: 14:42

It was creeping me out because there were strangers coming to my house. I had little kids and they officer for 13 years. It was creeping me out because there were strangers coming to my house. I had little kids and they're like I'd open the door. Who sent you? Is this the garage? Who sent you? Give me your ID, I'm going to run into this Exactly. And then we opened in a facility down the street and within I think six months I had to double the size of it. We were so full. And then I busted my ankle on the job and was off and I just opened a second facility and I realized I was happier hobbling around on a broken foot than I was at the police department anymore and I loved that job. You can attest to how much it's changed, and I don't know how much your viewers and you know about Canada, but Canada's changed even more.

Speaker 2: 15:24

It just wasn't what I love doing anymore, man, and it just didn't turn my crank and the gym did, so my wife quit first, and then I quit. One thing led to another, and here we are Now. I got the three gyms and I'm doing a lot of online coaching too.

Speaker 1: 15:37

Three gyms, dude, that's crazy. What's like enrollment per gym? Do you per gym? Do you know? Yeah, I gotta know. That's what I've been working. I'm working out.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I gotta. I've been working. I get a lot better at knowing those numbers. That was my big weakness in the past. But yeah, I got about 175, maybe 200 in my main facility, but that's like privates and all this stuff, but probably 140, some locked in clients. Yeah, 100 in my second facility and then my third one, my newest one in windsor, which is the city I I worked in. That one has 50. And that's my. It's a very small facility but it's awesome. It like feels old school, it's grunge in there, but it's awesome.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Dude, that's wild. That's where I found is that if you want to make a living doing gym work, you have to learn how to add multiple locations. But then that comes with so much work that it's like, how do you even do that? That's where I got overwhelmed. And then in 2020, it was like I can't keep these plates spinning and do everything. Then I sold my gym. I'm not sure. I think that was before we.

Speaker 2: 16:35

That was just after, when you and I first met, you had just sold. Oh, okay, okay, I think, because I remember here, I remember you telling me that, like that part of it, okay, yeah, yeah, it's interesting, it's been a challenge. The third you have kids, right? Yeah, yeah, somebody said like one kid is easy, two kids and then three kids, you're over. That's the third. That was it.

Speaker 2: 16:55

I don't have three kids, but when I got that third gym, it was just, it was little things. It's like the screen on the rowers broken and the light bulb. It was just like all these little things. So I literally last week so funny, I I teach leadership, but I teach these rules and I was breaking my own rules. I was trying to lead three different operations rather than having people on ground leading them for me, and that's what we've just switched to in the last two weeks and I've just they're doing better than I could because I couldn't be everywhere and they love it. So that's been my big learning curve and it's funny how your job and this they really do cross over.

Speaker 1: 17:38

Yeah, and that's what. There's several things there. It's like one I don't think cops value the skill sets that we're actually learning on the job as marketable outside the job. And that's where we hang on for 32 freaking years and you can go even if you can't pull like we can't pull our pension until 52 here in the state of Indiana, but so nobody wants to retire before they're 52 years old. And I'm like dude, you can go and market yourself to do a million different things with the tools that you have and then when you bring that to people, they're like no, this is the only thing I can do. I can't do anything else other than be a cop. No, like you have to realize all the different shit that we're learning on the job leadership, decision-making, like all of the things outside of just the specific skill set, of even the tactics.

Speaker 2: 18:24

I think and I want everybody who's listening because one thing that I do go back and I speak to police station and to police officers and fire all emergency services, because I don't want anybody to end up like me and I don't mean that in a bad way. But we need cops, man, we need medics, we need all these people. And I got myself to the point where I was so burnt out where I'd allowed so many of the terrible things I'd done to impact me in a negative way that I felt like I had to leave or I was going to burst and whatever that looked like. I don't know, and thank God we know I never did find out, but I had the gym thing on the background, right, and a lot of people they don't. So what happens to a lot of cops and you see it, as they get senior, either one they're gonna become like just they just go out there, they don't do anything, they just look to avoid calls all day long and how they cannot do their job because they're just so burnt out and they're done with it, like I was, or the ultimate on the other side of that is suicide, which is the terrible thing that we don't really talk about.

Speaker 2: 19:22

So I go in and I'm. We need to have these outlets and understand that. If you were that unhappy there, there are skills man. I've been now with the three businesses and the opportunities to train so many people. I've been in rooms and I'm going in and I'm doing like speeches and workshops and they're they're paying me this ungodly amount of money to speak on my and I really did. The first time I saw one of those paychecks for a couple hours of speaking, I was like this is what am I gonna give them? But because I didn't value those 20 something years or whatever that I did and that you guys are all doing and girls are all doing, now it is something and the things you've seen and done and managed, there's value to be given to other people, so there's always options yeah, yeah, yeah, no, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 20:07

But I'm telling you guys don't quit, stay healthy, don't quit. That's what we don't want. I don't want more people to quit like me, especially the good ones.

Speaker 1: 20:14

Yeah, but I you know if it's time to go and if you can market your stuff like I don't think that this is a job that you're designed to work, and for 32 years I don't know, Like, when I get my 20 on, I'll have, I'll be what, 40, 46, something like that, and that would be a good time.

Speaker 1: 20:37

I think from from just like a 30,000 foot view, if I was looking at me from the outside, I'd be like get your 20 and try to find something else. Man Like you still have a lot of time to build another business, do another career, like whatever you want. But but yeah, we'll see how it goes We'll see.

Speaker 2: 20:50

Isn't it wild that you're so? You've been on long enough to probably witness this too. Maybe it's different there. When I started, everybody stayed 36, 38 years, like 39 years. It was wild. Now guys are like the day they can leave. Boom see ya, there's no and they are counting down. It's wild and believing healthier.

Speaker 2: 21:09

I just had a reunion thing for christmas with my old team and everybody who's ever been on the team's invited ever and there's guys there, like the older dudes, man that were like my mentors and even people that were their mentors, and how much healthier they look than like my dad, who was a cop too. He's healthy, actually, but like his group of friends they're not so healthy, man, because they hung around forever huh, yeah, yeah, I don't see.

Speaker 1: 21:32

We don't get people bailing at 20. Typically people are pushing through that at least till they can pull a pension. Right, did they? We had to do 30, 30, 30, so we max ours out at 32, I think You're maxed out, but you can't pull anything until you're 52 years old. So it's like people at least push through until they're 52 and they can retire and pull it immediately.

Speaker 1: 21:56

But yeah, I just, I don't know, dude, even the feds have mandatory retirement. The ATF has mandatory retirement age. I can't remember what it is but when you hit a certain age, it doesn't matter how much you're making or what position you are. Boom, you're gone, go retire, get out of here. I've talked about it with guys on my team. We would love to see specifically the state of Indiana discuss lowering the age that we can pull our pension so that we can get out of the job and actually get new cops in. Then you could probably because you're not paying all those old timers on the back end you could actually do guys more and increase the pay and increase the bars and the training and all that you need to for law enforcement. So it would be a wash. You're losing a bunch of good people, but you're also paying enough to where you can gain them back and get them back on the other end.

Speaker 2: 22:48

And do you guys have a tenure on your team? No, is that typical, is it not?

Speaker 1: 22:50

typical in the States at all. I've never even heard of that where it's like hey, you've been on too long, Get out of here.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Especially like when you're like, still like young and doing it Like when I got moved.

Speaker 2: 22:58

I was man old, 36 years old it was and I was one of the most junior guys in terms of our age wise, one of the youngest guys, I should say, but one of the senior guys in terms of, like, my tenure on the team and on the job. So I was like man. That didn't make any sense, but you know what, at the end of the day, best thing that ever happened to me because none of this would ever happen I maybe I'd still be, I don't know. I was happy there. So, who knows, maybe it would have been great, but I'm gonna look at it as the best thing ever happened to me yeah, honestly, that that'd be.

Speaker 1: 23:27

If they did that to me today, I'd probably do the same thing. I'd be like three years I'll get my 20 and then I'm 100 out, because I love being on this team. Love it. It's my good for you. It's my favorite thing I've ever done in my life and it's what keeps me going. The road's fun, but like the tactical stuff that's just those problems to deal with specifically are so cool yeah yeah, I can't agree more.

Speaker 2: 23:50

The road is a wild west, though, man, oh my god, you never know what's gonna happen when you go to work. People think what's dangerous, and I tell people, man, the road is more dangerous than the team for the most part, we were very much planned.

Speaker 2: 24:03

I'm going with people I know very well. We've been practicing, we got a different set of skills and the people around me do too and it's just when you go on the road you're like whoa. I remember my first couple of weeks back. I'm like coming home. I'm like this is crazy. It was like the whole world had changed while I was off the road.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Yeah, no, yeah, a hundred about SWAT operations. It's like, all right, who, statistically, who are we going up against? It's usually not like a terror cell with six dudes in the house and everybody's got a machine gun and stuff like that. They're like we're going against the drug dealers, who typically just shit their pants and come out and go I quit, I quit, but but yeah, like the dude, I can't tell you how many. Like the craziest shit, the most dangerous stuff, that, the fights by yourself, the domestics dealing with it by yourself, like all that stuff you're doing by yourself and it's. You know, I'm in some someone's house, that's.

Speaker 2: 24:51

I don't know who's here, what's going around, and you're coming into a mess every time you're coming into a mess yeah, and like dispatchers, it's not their fault, they're dealing with a terribleness of these people calling in and none of them have their sanity or their their sobriety with them. And you're getting that. You're getting that information. You're like going to a call and you're like, wow, this is not what I expected. You're painting that picture in your head.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Yeah yeah. You learn real quick that it's like lead information only like. In the end, the story is completely different when you show up.

Speaker 2: 25:18

Yeah, that's what I miss. I miss that. I miss the spontaneity of the day, I miss the adrenaline. But and then days like I had this Tuesday, where I go meet all the old guy, I miss the friendships I do. But you leave there and there's a lot of people that you can. You thought you're friends with it. You really could care less to ever see again. You see him in the grocery store. It's nice to see them. But then there's the guys that I really served on the team with.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Those are my dudes, man year yeah At least a few times a year.

Speaker 1: 25:43

That's awesome that you still have that connection. I think that's a big thing too. I don't know what the stats are in, if this is like a worldwide stat or a North American stat or whatever, but the stat that I've always referenced is the average officer's dead five years after retirement, and I don't know if that's true for Canada too. I think it is, I think, but like, that loss of connection is such a huge component of why that occurs, I think. So the fact that that's a really good model that you're operating on is you still stay connected.

Speaker 1: 26:14

You're not like I'm not on the team anymore, I'm not on the department anymore. I guess that I'm not that person anymore. Then the role is temporary, but you are the same person. You know what I mean. And so often we get stuck in this view of ourselves and role oriented, like I'm only this, and then when that thing is gone, when I'm not a cop anymore, then all of a sudden, like, your view of yourself changes and you're like I can't associate with those people anymore because I'm not that. You still are. It was just yesterday. Like what's changed other than you got to wear different clothes to work Nothing.

Speaker 2: 26:48

Way more comfortable clothes to work.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Right, that was something that I had to deal with in 2020 was like all right, with all this shit coming out about forced medical mandates and they're making cops do all sorts of crazy shit and I'm sure you saw it in Canada even more like what they made their police do in that country and it's I'm not going to stick around for this Holy shit. Like I'm going to lose a big part of who I am and it. And then that for me was like all right, who am I without this job? Cause I've been doing it so long. It's become such an identity Like I don't want to lose it. I guess I'm just going to have to do this stuff.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Like these are conversations I had in my head that I'm like there's no way that I can do what they want me to do. If this is going to be how it's going to be, I can't. I got to find something else, and that's where I had to come to some hard realizations. This is just a part of me and it can come or go and it's temporary, regardless At some, and I'm not going to be this thing anymore. So, like, how do you deal with?

Speaker 2: 27:44

that. Yeah, I think you're hitting it perfectly. That's the. I think that's the outlook more people have to have, and I think that the new age police are doing a lot better job. I was I'm Tony Smith, I'm not Tony the cop and I think back when I first got hired and I was guilty of it I think that's the only thing I was and it became very difficult then. Yeah, like you were leading into with the covid and things never, ever did, I think. When I quit the job, I remember saying to somebody like I've been in business five years now. We're doing very solid. We got two locations.

Speaker 2: 28:13

The only thing that could take me down and would be doing something completely inappropriate in our gym, right, or act of god, man, did it come and the act of God? Or the prime minister who thinks he's God one of the two and man. It was a challenge. Never did I think I'd have to say to the police that you are not welcome here without a warrant and to my friends and some of them stood right behind me. Some of them stood in support silently, which I appreciated, and some of them just frankly, had to do their job at some points, and it was.

Speaker 2: 28:44

That was a challenge for me and it was a challenge personally. I have two sons and I have a wife and I have a whole membership who looks at me, and the rules here were crazy and I had to decide like when is it? When somebody tells you a rule, you don't just break it because you don't like it. That's so the law. Do you break the law? Law because you don't like it? Or you break the law because it's completely unjust and somebody needs to. And that was the struggle I had, because it's like one for me morally, but also the example I'm setting for my sons, and so it really put us in a hard spot around here and I'm glad it's over. It's not completely over, but it's well behind us now. It was a pretty negative time to be a gym owner, in particular here in Canada.

Speaker 1: 29:25

Oh man, yeah, I know I was watching. I went through it here on a smaller scale, but we still had the same issues Like I had. I don't know if I told you this or not, but I got a phone call during the lockdown from a dude that I know on one of our state police agencies that they said they we got a tip that your gym is open and you need to close it. I'm like no, you didn't, there's no way he goes. Yep, we got an anonymous tip. I go okay, so what? And he was like we're giving you a warning. I go based on what he goes, based on the tip. And I said what statute are you warning me? Under what law did I break? He was like I don't know, we're just giving you a warning.

Speaker 1: 30:04

I was like that's not how police work works, man. Like you can't do that. There's a statute. You have to violate the statute and then you have to have a consequence in accordance with the statute. This is how police work goes. And he was like we got an anonymous tip through this website that said you're open and we have to follow up on it. I'm like yeah, you have followed up with surveillance and corroboration and do all this police work. You can't just show up and just like here's a fine. That's not how it works, man, and I got so pissed off I was like this is insane, yeah. And then see what you went through in Canada. It's just, it was just outrageous and I don't know what. So what's your view of police work Cause I think you probably have a good view of like you've spent enough time here to know how we operate as cops in the States versus how things operate in Canada what's like the biggest differences?

Speaker 2: 30:55

Yeah, I did almost all my training on your side of the border because it was just so much easier for us to go. Of course it's readily available and so close. So I spent a lot of time with a lot of great American police officers and I saw a lot that weren't that great and I think like the biggest differences were the training and I'm saying this as a generality because that's one thing I think Canada is better is very standardized. The training that's going to happen, no matter the size of the police service, and a lot of our small police services have kind of disappeared to become provincial, which would be like your state police, I guess. The standardization of like your use of force, training, all those things very, you could almost walk into any police department like having never been there. And I found that when I was training in the states, when I trained only with really with SWAT teams, there was that you had some teams that were so switched on and that had such high standards, that were so skilled and I learned so much. And then you had teams where it was like Bob and Bill and Joe from all different police services were meeting and maybe getting one training day in a month if they didn't have court, or so I found that was the, and the standardization of the use of force I found was very like. It was like department to department and I didn't really like how it was laid out.

Speaker 2: 32:08

I taught use of force. I'm a very I'm a big believer in use of force. I don't think there's enough force used anymore here, but that was what I found was the biggest differences, and this would be controversial. But I think the firearms here being a little harder to get and maybe not as readily taught as a kid that you're more fearful of them and maybe less likely to shoot. I don't know if that's why there's less bad shoots here than seems to be what there, and maybe it's just the media saying that. I don't know. I don't know what that was, but I feel like shooting a lot faster over there than here, and I sometimes for the bad here because like there's guys who should be pulling their firearms that are trying to taser, pepper spray people. So when you hear that, I'm not saying that in a negative way, I'm just saying that as an observation yeah, yeah, huh, I never thought about that.

Speaker 1: 33:00

I wonder what the like per capita. I wonder what the police action shootings look like versus south the border, versus north border.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Yeah, yeah, man, I would say like typical here this will surprise you is like there are a lot of hunters here. Like I think guns per like lawful guns, I think they're. It's higher per person here because of the hunting and the there's so much remote country I think I don't know if that's still accurate, but as that most people in this like that I worked with, myself included, never shot a handgun until you got on the police department, so I think, like that you're more scared to use it, as I really would think. That's what I'm trying to say. Is that what boils down to? Yeah For the good or the bad?

Speaker 1: 33:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:39

That's case by case.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Yeah, no, that raises some good questions, though, about about use of force differences, why it's different, that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's to me, especially looking at 2020, the countries that have a socialized government it seemed like it was so much easier for even their local cops to just really get aggressive with enforcing things. That like really it's. I didn't even know that was a thing in Canada. Yeah, we can do it. We haven't done it, but now we're gonna and everybody's gonna do it, because it's very standardized. So it's like double edged sword with that, where it's like the training is good because it's like you can just walk in and lateral between place to place and it sounds like it's roughly the same and that's good. But at the same time, it really just creates this massive like possible overreach too. Does that make sense? Does that sound accurate or not?

Speaker 2: 34:30

No, absolutely. We're seeing it here. It doesn't feel like a free country here right now. I'm not going to lie to you Like it's a lot of the things that are happening. So we are. Yes, I do.

Speaker 2: 34:42

I say that during COVID was the first time I saw as acting American around here where people were like starting to stand up for their freedoms. And I spent so much I just spent a month in Florida that's where my family's from, so you want to talk a little as far on the other side as you can, just speaking in generalities. So I just found that people here were never like, hey, freedom, like freedoms are like I think we just took it for granted, whereas when I've been around tons of Americans, you guys are always speaking about freedoms. You're right for speech, you're right for all those things. Those are great things and I think that was a positive impact. That happened here is that we are thinking that way now. We are thinking more American around here. These are things we took for granted and we cannot give them back, because when you give them back, you're probably not going to get them back. They're no longer yours. So when you give that away, it's no longer yours and we gave it away here.

Speaker 1: 35:33

Yeah, and that's something I talked about a lot in 2020. It's all about where do you want to have the fight? Because, like kind of being an asshole in Kroger about masks and giving people pushback on all sorts of stupid rules that they have on a minor level Like I'm going to create that fight and I'm going to be a pain in the ass for you, because I'd much rather have the fight about this rather than locking me down in home detention for whatever reason in my house or taking my guns away Stuff like that. Like I would rather have that fight way earlier.

Speaker 2: 36:06

Yeah, it's so. Here they wanted and I don't want to get the side of vaccines. I think everybody can figure out what my side of that is but here they wanted you to be able to go to restaurants, to be able to come to my gym. You're supposed to show that you had it was called a passport, basically that you were vaccinated. And I said, regardless if you're vaccinated or not, but to my members because people were coming to me and asking these questions because they weren't used to this and I'm saying listen, you're vaccinated, but still you shouldn't show that card. That's your choice and I support that. If you wanted to get vaccinated because you thought it was the best decision, then that's good for you. But by showing that card you're giving up that freedom. We're giving away a little bit of that freedom.

Speaker 1: 36:48

Yeah, so two things. One, there's a book and it's about the Khmer Rouge. When they took over in Cambodia after Vietnam, right, us pulled out of Vietnam, left a serious power void, and then the Khmer Rouge came in and took over and they were a terrible communist government and you could see the name of the book is I think they Killed my Father First, something to that effect. And what they did? The first thing they did was they rounded up all the firearms in the whole place and they were like these are all ours, we're taking them all away. And people were like, all right, I guess that's okay. And then they were like, all right, now we want to have you guys all come out of the cities, we're going to clear the cities, we're going to let you come back, but we need you to clear the cities. And they were like, okay, it sounds stupid, but I think we'll do it anyway. Now you got all the guns and you're making us right, so they do that.

Speaker 1: 37:32

And they put them on a pathway to just go be slaves, more or less. And then they started separating the women and children from all the men, and then the men just started disappearing, like small by small, like group by group, individual by individual, and, and they were just executing anybody they thought was a threat. And that's how do you even come back from that? You already crossed the point of no return, like how many months or years earlier they took your guns away. They wanted to take your guns away. That's probably where you should have put your foot and line in the sand and been like nah, I think I'm gonna have to fight here and at least I won't have to live through this nonsense that's coming if I lose.

Speaker 2: 38:05

Yeah, yeah, like I said, I think the police went into those neighborhoods with the right purpose and then it just became too far. It went too far and it became like a social injustice, which is like the last thing you'd ever think that I would think of those situations. That's what was happening here. I think at the start, the government government was trying to protect people and then it went too far where it became an injustice, and we're pushing back to get back the other way now, which hopefully will happen.

Speaker 1: 38:29

What's interesting too is that, like you talk about, like the government was trying to help I think that's most of the time, right Before you get to the place where you're like a totalitarian, like dictator the governments are trying to help, people are trying to help, especially the cops on the ground. There's not too many cops that I've seen that are absolute psychopathic, like they want to go murder people. I don't think those things exist really.

Speaker 2: 38:49

I don't know what your experience is, but I know that right no, like how many interactions do you have where there's zero, zero use of force? I don't know. I would love to know. I would love to know the numbers, because it's not even just incident numbers that are generated. It's like I talked to, talked to people all day long, especially back in the day. Every time I pulled somebody over and talked to a guy on the side of the street, I didn't put myself out there and create a case number Like oh my God, so there.

Speaker 1: 39:12

So this whole narrative of like racist, psychopathic, murdering police officers is not true, like it's just made up. But we do things that I can see where it's like all right. I can see where this would seem oppressive, especially if you get so used to doing it over and over again and you're like what? I'm just checking your ID, like all right, here it's. Are you following like Terry V, ohio and the different case law where it's are you allowed to stop this person or is it a consensual encounter? And do you understand what that means? As far as, can you stop them and detain them? Or versus stop and just talk to them, like stuff like that? And if you as a cop don't understand that fully, you're trying to do your job, you think you're doing it right. You just might have made a mistake and if you do that time and again, it becomes commonplace and then it's you are being oppressive, but you're not. You didn't mean to and you're not trying to.

Speaker 2: 39:58

You just made a bunch of yeah and then because of that it went completely the other way, where now the police can't ID anybody. So that's not also what we want. It became to the point where, at the end of my career, you just drive by. You just drive by and deal with the crime like an insurance agent after something's happened.

Speaker 1: 40:16

So what in Canada? Do you have to stop somebody? What are the requirements to do that? Like when you were on before it went the other way, like what was the practice?

Speaker 2: 40:24

back in the day it was like, basically you had reason to believe reasonable grounds to believe that somebody was going to commit because you could prevent crime. Right, you can act to prevent crime, right. That's the difference, really, between a policeman and a fireman, like obviously they're not dealing with crime, but firemen respond they're not looking to put out fires before they start. Police are looking to stop crime before it happens yeah, it's because they're sleeping and eating. Let's not get into that.

Speaker 2: 40:49

But I love, I love to give a good fireman joke, but at the end of the day, that's what's happening. The paramedics are not out trying to stop people who have heart attacks before they happen. They're treating with them after right, the police and it man, and by the end that's all we were doing. We were going to the fire after it was happening because there was no more preventing it, because they were raised that level of suspicion beyond what you could really ever prove yourself to be, and it was good enough for you to write that before, when now you'd have to the observations you'd have to make of a person and dude, like we all have a, especially after you've been there, you've got a sixth sense, like I'd like to. I would love to know the stats. I'm I like to gamble on the odd football game. I'd like to know my line of.

Speaker 2: 41:29

If I drove down the street and chose who to pull over, what the chances are that they had been arrested for some kind of crime before, and a real crime I'm not talking about shoplifting and they would be ridiculous. And for me and almost everybody I ever worked with and and here in Windsor we have it is like a split like our. Our races are like. We have everything here. We don't have a predominant. White would be probably the most predominant racer, but that's what I'm talking. It doesn't even matter what the race is, whatever, what neighborhood. I bet you that we'd be a well over 90, you me, almost every cop it's.

Speaker 2: 42:03

But you couldn't act on those like the way somebody. We used to have a thing when you drive by, if they look back to see if you're still going, you know time to swing back and see what this guy's all about, right in the middle of the night at three in the morning, walking to the street. So like those things that are common sense, like why are you walking around by yourself at three in the morning? Why did you look at me? Plenty and my spidey sense went off. That was no longer and that's what.

Speaker 1: 42:25

That's what the courts said, right so the big difference that I'm hearing between stops that you could make in canada then versus stops that we can make here, is that we have to be like we have to see that a crime or is occurring, or have a very reasonable suspicion that a crime is occurring. Right, that criminal activity is occurring and as long as we can articulate that, whether or not it a hundred percent is, it doesn't have to be like we don't have to prove oh yeah, it was a drug deal. If it is more probable than not that it looks like a drug deal, like then it's, then we can go and stop them. But other than that, we have to wait until they committed some sort of like traffic infraction, walk across the street inappropriately or something like that. Like we would have to wait until they committed something where it's okay, now I can go detain you based on the fact that I'm at least going to write you a ticket. Is that?

Speaker 2: 43:15

And that's always. They just raise the bar on that. And maybe not just raise the bar, they raise the armchair quarterbacking of that. So where it wasn't really, you know, at the end of the day you can always find a reason and you can write that reason and you can make it lawful. And it's not even like you watch a guy cross against the red light. You can make that stop right and force that identification. That that's the. It just became not worth what you have to go to should a complaint had come through to prove yourself that you're just trying to be a police officer like you signed up to be. And that's really where it's become. It's the scrutiny after the law hasn't really changed.

Speaker 1: 43:51

It's the scrutiny of that yeah, and that's the same thing that we go through here. I actually just talked to a guy, a cop, in florida today. Right before I got on with you, I recorded another podcast with with tyler from anti-hero podcast.

Speaker 1: 44:04

I don't know if you listen to that at all, but no, I haven't but we were talking about the fact that a lot of the stuff coming out on body cameras and dash cam footage, like normal people don't understand and it's hard for them to comprehend why the use of force occurred or the shooting occurred. And it's like you're not supposed to understand you're a normal human being.

Speaker 1: 44:23

Like it's not your like it's not it doesn't, and that's why the standard in the U S is the, the what. What would a reasonable officer do in that context, in that situation? Not a reasonable person, not a reasonable accountant, not a reasonable teacher, but a reasonable officer. Because a reasonable person would never be in that spot, they would never even be there.

Speaker 2: 44:43

So it doesn't matter, and that's, I think, the biggest change in me from where I was before is I'd go to parties and I'd be so pissed listening to people talk about like you're on SWAT, do you even do anything. There's talk about like you're on SWAT, do you even do anything. There's no crime here. Meanwhile, we're like one of the busiest cities per capita in Canada, right, like everything. All the guns come through the states and all the drugs go to you and they all go right across here. They all meet right here, right, chicago, detroit, toronto, montreal. So I would be so pissed about that.

Speaker 2: 45:11

But now, looking back, man, it just meant that we were doing a great job, because normal people didn't know what went on in the night. Normal people don't know how bad the crime was, and I think that's something to be said. And I'm lucky now because I'm around normal people that are not police officers all the time and I'm able to. When they talk about things, I'm like well, you saw two seconds of that body cam, you know, and you saw this and you saw that and what you don't know that the experiences right, it's like the experiences I've had in this situation before and the experiences that you've had that I've heard of also lead to my you know my reaction to the situation.

Speaker 2: 45:51

And we don't have to wait to be punched in the face or stabbed to use force Like we're supposed to prevent things like. So we I want a person that's going to win is me. The person uses force first and most you and I are going to fight regardless of skill. If I punch you first, I got a higher chance of winning, because then after that the skill then really takes over and I I assume everybody that I want that I'm going to fight on that job is stronger and tougher than me. You have to. So I think it's just things that people don't really understand and a lot of people, unfortunately, until they are the victim, they really believe in these things, but then, once they're the victim, they want you to kick that guy's ass. I hope you kick that guy's ass. That's not the point of the job, but you get.

Speaker 1: 46:39

What I'm saying is people have the bleeding heart for the criminal until they're the victim, until their child is the victim, or their wife or themselves, their home, yeah, until they want their way until they want their justice.

Speaker 1: 46:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right. So shifting gears a little bit. I want to talk about training, because most of what I do is training. So I know we haven't talked a ton about that, but like tactical programming, let's say. Let's say you're training, like I come to you for help for my SWAT team or my, let's say, like, general police department. So we got a 500 man department in the Midwest and I need some help with a strength conditioning program for my officers. What does that consist of? And like, how does that different, how is that different from just a regular I don't know bodybuilding or CrossFit program?

Speaker 2: 47:30

I think that the court where we met I think that they say it best is like every day you need to be ready, able, resilient to energy with the, resilient to injury, with the gas tank to get shit done. So there's never a peak. Like I've trained fighters, I've trained football players, ufc fighters and there's a peak where we're going to that fight and that fight is the peak. That's where they're going to hang from the ceiling. But for police officers, for for anybody law enforcement, military too you're standing on the floor every day because that floor has to be high enough where you can perform, but not the peak where, if you're crashed that day, you can't do it because you never know when the call is going to come in. You just don't right and don't. Doesn't it always seem like you get in a foot chase after you have, or you're deathly sore from a leg day it's always that or the warrant comes in.

Speaker 2: 48:13

That's on the 18th floor and of course we got to take the stairs and I got to carry the ram, but that's where it is. For me it's like keeping people strong enough, fit enough in cardio, because I think like we really want to ignore that a lot of times. But if you don't, I've never had to run a 5k as a police officer, but I had to run 100 meters, 250 meters, a hell of a lot of times. So I think there's that. And then resilient to energy is, I think, the one that we really undervalue.

Speaker 2: 48:37

The equipment that you guys wear. I know it's getting lighter, but still the equipment you're wearing, for the amount of hours you're wearing it, even just having that gun on your hip and pressing the gas pedal all day it's it takes a beating on you. Right Reports in the cruiser, all that stuff Like there's a lot that needs to go into that, I think, to keep a police department if you're going to train 500 people in a very general physical fitness, like that's where we need to be yeah, so generally speaking, do you do?

Speaker 1: 49:03

would you say barbells? Would you say kettlebells? Would you say sandbags? What kind of implements and movements would you do with that? Like generally, not specifically. You don't have to shit out like a program right now. I just curious what like tactical training is to you?

Speaker 2: 49:17

for me it's it is all the fundamental movement patterns. We're going to hammer those home. We are going to mix in some. I like to reverse my training sometimes where we're going to run and then do something hard or row and then do something with a hard lift. I really think that the triple joint movements are important. So we we talked about snatches. I really do think like kettlebell snatches, I start everybody on dumbbell, kettlebell regardless, progress them up to that barbell if they need to be. But I think like getting those explosive movements is very important and having a good, strong base and then spending tons of time on that posterior chain and the hips.

Speaker 1: 49:54

What do you do for hips specifically, because that's's another. That's a big thing I've been talking a lot about with people is hip complexes and stuff like that, because it does when you're sitting basically in the position that we both are now, like seated flex forward and stuck there for 8 to 12 hours a day, like you're going to get into some nasty hip stuff. So how do you?

Speaker 2: 50:13

fix it. I'm telling you 46 man, my hips are the thing that bugged me the most and I attribute it all to what you say. What I'm doing for hips is a ton of obviously, like you said complexes. I think those are great. A lot of the stuff that you're going to see in a typical rehab program I like to call it prehab where we're going to be doing things from like toe taps to up and over the cones mobility work at the start, mobility work at the end on those hips big believer in that and then things to make the hips explosive, because I think of like much like a football player and like a lot of our contact is from you and I are theoretically a long way away, but we're this close, we're within an arm's reach where we have to create that kind of power.

Speaker 2: 50:54

So I think a lot of that is where I go and I'm a big believer in. I use that booty band a lot for the hip stuff and just some of that marching on the railroad tracks and those types of things to just keep the hips fresh and moving and even as simple as the fire hydrants with a band. I really believe that those help me a lot to keep my back and my SI loose and strong.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Yeah, are you the McGill big three, I'm assuming?

Speaker 2: 51:20

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:21

So like that sounds a lot similar to what you're doing for not only just a warmup but also using components of that in in the actual training sessions either for probably for accessory work, I would imagine Right.

Speaker 2: 51:33

Yeah, man, isn't it funny how there's your big, strong dude. Like you do a barbell day. You don't do any of that stuff and you're good. But I did a day the other day and it was a lot. It was like booty work. I was doing like stuff that you would say was like women's booty work and I was destroyed from it. Just some adduction abductions.

Speaker 2: 51:52

So some little I out like a 45 degree angle out with the hip, whatever you want to call those. But that that stuff just crushes me. I really believe it's not just warm-up and primer stuff. I truly treat that as accessory work and now, being 46, I'm like starting to really sign up for the. I do a lot of my accessory work on the front end, especially if I don't feel great. So rather than loading up the heavy barbell in a true primary movement like you would in regular programming, I'll do it like at the last. I kind of break the rules and I find that I can. I'm way more warmed up and I can do more with less weight. I can get more out of it with less weight.

Speaker 1: 52:27

Yes, and that's that's a big thing with conjugate. That I learned is that you're actually trying to do more with less. Let's make the bar harder to move. Then we can lift less weight and still get really strong. But yeah, all right, so let's use a safety squat bar. It's 20% harder and we can do less weight to get stronger. That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 52:42

But yeah, what you're saying at 46 and me at 40, I'll be 43 here in a couple of weeks Like I feel the same way. I've had both my hips replaced and it's really yeah, yeah. So I'm not going to PR my squat, probably ever again. And what is the metric that I need to use to know that I'm still getting stronger, at least maintaining like I'm pushing to get, to continue to get stronger. Even though I might never hit that barbell metric, I can still lift a heavy barbell. It's just going to be after I do a bunch of other shit to make sure that I'm ready to move the barbell for one and then for two, like the stimulus is more important than the number on the bar. So as long as I'm still lifting the heavy thing, it doesn't really matter where I go, as long as my ego isn't so big that I'm going to get hurt doing it again.

Speaker 2: 53:27

Yeah, and that's what it is too. It's the ego too that gets in my way a lot and, I'm sure, a lot of other people.

Speaker 1: 53:32

It sucks, man sucks sometimes, especially my son is 16 years old and he's a varsity football player and like he's always testing me and every time I go through the kitchen I'm getting under hooks and and body locks. I'm like dude, I'm just trying to get a drink of water, leave me alone. So now he's squatting like 405 and I'm like I can still do it and I'm like I can't fucking do it. What am I doing? But yeah, it still gets me and it's.

Speaker 2: 54:00

You have no business doing that, yeah I think a lot of guys do we really mess it up. You want to talk about we're training. You got to really assess what have you done and where you've been. We're talking that we're 46, we're so old, but we spent a lot of time in this gear and I got this vest sweater on. But do I need to be training in a vest? No, I spent like 12 hours a day for how many years wearing a vest. Actually like the only thing I compete with a CrossFit athlete is and in the Murph, because I just I feel like my foundation of wearing a vest is just so high.

Speaker 2: 54:29

What person who hasn't worn the heavy vest? Yeah, they probably should be putting that on and going for their. Now I'll rock with a vest on, but I'm not really doing pull-ups and push-ups very often with one on. Like we spent so much time with it on, I don't really need it that much. And where it's beating me up in the same way that cruiser did, where we're a new guy, he probably needs to be in that vest and get used to it and do some things in it so that when he does call the perform he's ready to. But the guy who has been on the vest for 10 years, every day of his life. I think you should probably take it off a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 54:57

Right, yeah, yeah. And that's like how do you optimize recovery within that? What does your volume accumulation look like? Cause, like you cannot and overall by and large and I made this was a massive error I made early on when I was competing in CrossFit, working second shift, I'd get off at 1030, 30 every night and then I so I'd work out before shift, go on at two o'clock, get off at 10 o'clock and I was working one of the busiest districts in the city probably the busiest and then still going and trying to do doubles. So I'd go in and train after shift because I was competing and I thought I need more volume and I wonder why I only lasted competitively in crossfit for two years. You can't like that volume accumulation was completely inappropriate and the shit that you were doing was outrageous Cops, firefighters, military dudes they want to train. Like the idea that you can't train too hard for a job that can kill you is true, but it's not by more volume and more junk volume Like that's just going to burn you up faster.

Speaker 2: 55:55

I agree a hundred percent. Man, you still have to train. There has to be just those peaks of that training. They got to be very well managed.

Speaker 1: 56:03

Yeah, I don't know what you feel like, but the more I get into this as far as like general abilities and strength and conditioning for tactical communities, I'm, I'm. I look at it and I'm like if you can lift three days a week, that's plenty. And the different stimulus in there you can talk about exercise. Selection all day long doesn't really matter. Lift things heavy full body Monday, Wednesday, Friday. You lift three days a week and then you can fit in whatever you want, whether it's max effort, dynamic effort, repetition method, conjugate stuff, whatever. I don't give a shit. Just lift three days a week and then do some aerobic work like two days a week and that's it. And you can double those up if you want. But that's really to me. I'm like this is a much simpler equation to solve than I think we get wrapped around the axle with all sorts of other shit. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 56:52

oh man, I'm 100 with you, like three to four times a week lifting, and usually only two of those are even moderately heavy. I feel like I train like a bodybuilder two days a week and like a power lifter two days a week and the power lifting is I'm like it's like a 60% I'm keeping. I'm going to work at that end of the chart rather than the 10 by twos. And so I'm at I'm going to work at that end of the chart rather than the 10 by twos, so I'm at four by fours, five by fives, three by fives, all those kinds of things. I'm really protecting the volume these days. Still want to stay strong for the ego too, not just for the health but for the ego. It's important to me, and especially around here with two growing boys. Like you said, I can't wait. I love hearing that story about your 16 year old. I can't wait for that day, those kinds of things. And then, yeah, the aerobic work, and the aerobic work too.

Speaker 2: 57:38

I'm a huge advocate of walking. Like I can't believe it, maybe I'm getting that old, but I love going for a walk. I think it's great for my relationship with my wife, I think it's great for my mind and I really think it has a ton of value for my body, just getting for my body, just getting out and moving. And when I'm gonna hit like a hit session, like I used to, we still do. Really we call them fuck you fridays in our gym every friday they're hard sessions, but when I go in I don't try to top that, skier out, I go and I go at a pace that's gonna, you know, be okay for me. I'm okay with letting that those numbers be behind. So I think that to go real hard like we used to, or like a crossfit workout or Metcon, whatever you trippers, whatever you guys call them, I think there's value to that. But it's more in my brain than it is for my body these days.

Speaker 1: 58:23

Yeah, there's a mental toughness piece to it that you can't. You can't ignore that, but it's. You have to dose it appropriately or you're going to, you're going to get sick, you're going to, you're going to take yourself backwards. And I like the analogy I've used this a couple of times recently like vitamin C is good for you, but if you take a ton of it every day, you'll shit yourself, you'll have diarrhea, so, so intensity is the same way. You've got to dose it. Small, small doses of it go a long way, especially as you ate, but you still need to sprint, you still need to lift heavy things, but it just amount of of times that you do that. In a week it should probably go down, especially if you're working a stressful job or getting older and have, yeah, fake hips, like that's yeah, lift heavy, move fast.

Speaker 2: 59:06

That's monday tuesday for me, when the rest of the days are like about moving and getting ready for next monday and tuesday yeah, oh, I like it.

Speaker 1: 59:14

Yeah, and prime that aerobic system and do all the things that's going to. Yeah, that's and that's. The equation is simple, like it's not as important to me as what specific special exercises and that kind of stuff and I would love to say that I can come up with the ultimate tactical based program. But it's really. It's not that difficult to figure out. Needs of this population are.

Speaker 2: 59:33

No, and I think that where you separate yourself as a coach and from what I've seen of you and know of you and I think myself included and other, there's so many great coaches is it's not the program you're writing, it's your ability to coach it, it's your ability to relate, to tell people the vitamin C and how they're going to shit themselves and stop them from shitting themselves. That's what coaching is and I think that's what separates the good coaches, Cause you know, we don't. We've taken one course together, but we've probably taken a bunch of courses that are so similar and our programs would look very similar when we put them out on paper. It's just how can we get leading as well as getting the maximum potential of the person you're leading right? So how can you get that out of the person you're dealing with?

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

Yeah, and then that spurs into another conversation which we've been going an hour. I don't want to keep you all day, but like I can give you the perfect program, but if you're not going to do the program, then the program sucks Right. So it's more about behavior modification and leadership than it is about the actual programming, and that's why bad CrossFit gyms, which I wouldn't recommend anybody go to. But how do they get results for their people when it's's? I bet I was around in here in town it's I looked at some gyms. I'm like how do they even exist? They're terrible, but they're getting results for their people. Oh, they changed their behaviors, that's it. It doesn't really matter what their training looks like. They changed their behaviors and that worked. You know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Absolutely, absolutely, and then continuing to get I mean we'd be going out forever but continue to get progress out of people. Somebody comes off the coach. We change your behavior, but in 90 days maybe longer depending on how long you've been on that coach but there's going to be a certain point where we need to change the behavior again. I always say you got to keep paying more, especially when we've been doing this. It's very hard for me to raise a lift by one pound these days. It's just just is what it is, and I got to pay more. So either I got to eat a little bit more, eat a little bit less or sleep a little bit more. There's going to be something I have to do more of if I want to continue to progress the longer you've been lifting and exercise, and I think that really comes from a lot from inside, but the external influence of a coach is always a huge help on that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:32

Yeah, and that's where you're going to need somebody to guide you through it when you get to that point. That I heard I think I heard Lane Norton say this one time in a podcast where it's if you want to take your body fat down from 30% to 15%, that's not that difficult. You can probably figure out how to do it yourself. But if you want to go from 15% to like, that is going to be way harder for less of a change. Or I think he even said something smaller, like 4% to 3%, is going to be way harder than getting down to 4% and it's all. That makes sense that you're trying to squeeze every little bit out of the last thing and that's super hard to do.

Speaker 2: 1:02:08

Absolutely. It's way harder to coach, it's way harder to get change out of somebody who's been going for a long time, Somebody who's a real strong lifter, and comes to you and says whatever that number is for them, say, it's 500 pounds and they want to get to 525. Man, it's so much easier to take that person, who was from 350 all the way to 475, than it is to get them from 5 to 525. It's just the way.

Speaker 2: 1:02:28

The nature of the beast and I think too I don't know with you and I think our advantages as coaches is I hear people talk about real life strength and I'm like dude, I don't know, man, you went to school. You're very educated in this, but you went to university for this, Then you worked in the gym and now you have a gym. You didn't do the real life. So, to tell me, I didn't snatch with a barbell very often. I didn't do muscle ups and I did a bunch of raids and never did. I think, man, I should have wish I would have done more snatches. There's that real life component that you're able to apply to the officers and to the people that are the online clients that you're trying to attract your niche that other people probably can't, even though they have the education for it. They just don't have the application. The difference between the application and the actual knowledge of the education.

Speaker 1: 1:03:15

Yeah, that's a, that's a big experience.

Speaker 1: 1:03:18

Yes, that's a big gap and I was talking about like to people, especially when I'm like like on sales calls and stuff for programs and stuff like that. I'll talk to them about like failure points, since you can either fail at one of three places. Right, you either have a knowledge gap that you don't know and you have to close that knowledge gap and learn stuff Like how to lose weight, how do I need to get strong, like I have to learn specific things. The second one is a belief problem. So if you don't believe that you can do whatever it is you want to do, or you don't believe you deserve it, then you won't get it right.

Speaker 1: 1:03:51

So there's that cognitive piece that needs to be changed too. And the last piece is the most often is what I see is they have the belief system, they know what to do, like I know that you should not eat Doritos. Like I know that, but I still do it. So I know what to do, I believe that I should do it and I can do it, but I don't know how to put it in practice day to day. I don't know how to apply it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:20

That's the biggest kicker for people is that last piece. Yeah, yeah, and I think people really think you need so much complication. I remember somebody coming to me and they wanted to get their rowing number down and they're like 2k row was like 830. And I'm like bro, like just, you just need to row more. You don't need a rowing program, you just need to row every day in your warmup. And 830, you want to get seven minutes. There's such a. You have such a long way to go before you need a program.

Speaker 2: 1:04:40

Let's get you to 715 before you need a program. Just row every single day in your warmup. You just wrote a thousand meters every day in your warmup. You're going to be at 745 in three, like probably three to four weeks. You know people, they just don't realize it's just about all I want that guy to do in that case was to put more sand in the bottom of that pyramid because it's raising the peak naturally. Then, when we're going to go after 7.15, okay, now we need to worry about split times and all that nonsense. You don't need to worry about it now.

Speaker 1: 1:05:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, A hundred percent, man Dude, that's. It was awesome catching up with you. Do you have any? You have anything you're pushing, you're coaching, promoting, like anything going on.

Speaker 2: 1:05:15

Yeah, man, I've been really pushing this called the Aggressively Masculine Program. I think it's what's lacking out here a lot with. I'm not really like shooting for the first responders anymore, I'm shooting for dads, I'm shooting for dudes like me who might be struggling, who just need a little bit. I really think there's four pillars, and that's these tattoos on my neck. It's strength, that's mind body, the warrior mindset, service to others, the go get it, have a mission and go get it. Self-awareness, to know where your weaknesses are, where your strengths are and how you're going to fix them. And then, of course, protector mentality, which is protect my family but protect me and my relationships, and that's, it's a whole program. So we can call life coaching if you want, but really it starts with fitness and it covers all the bases to make sure that you're there for your family and for yourself, because you can't be there for your family if you're not there for yourself dude, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:06:04

What's what's the program called again?

Speaker 2: 1:06:06

aggressively masculine, that's what we call it dude.

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

That's an awesome name that is. I'm gonna put that down. That's awesome. I Cool dude. Where can people find out more about that? More about you?

Speaker 2: 1:06:17

Hey, look me up, Tango1. Tony. So Tango1 underscore Tony on Instagram or Tango1.ca, because it's in Canada, but I do take American money 40% of the dollar right now. Man, florida killed me, but yeah, you can find me there easily. It's been awesome getting on here, man, and catching up with you, and I know you're not in this country, but I appreciate what everybody's doing. I'm so happy that people are still fighting the fight and I really mean what I said. Don't end up like me. We need you guys, so be happy I love it, man, and I gotta.

Speaker 1: 1:06:47

I'll stay in touch. I actually want to come up and check out what you got going on. I'd love to see it in person. We're really not that far away.

Speaker 2: 1:06:52

I just got to come in person, then we can do a podcast in person. I do mine now, mostly all in person.

Speaker 1: 1:06:57

Sweet, I love it. Awesome man. I'll be in touch and thanks again for your time. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, brother, take care.

Speaker 2: 1:07:04

Good luck everybody.