All In: Student Pathways Forward
This podcast focuses on elevating community college student voices to shape inclusive higher education and workforce development policies, practice and partnerships that create economic mobility.
All In: Student Pathways Forward
Season Three - An Introduction to Non-Degree Credentials of Value and Quality Career Pathways, Dr. Michelle Van Noy, Director of the Education and Employment Research Center at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations
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In this introductory episode for season three, host Marc Goldberg interviews Dr. Michelle Van Noy, the Director of the Education and Employment Research Center (EERC) at the Rutgers School of Management and Labor Relations. As a leading scholar in the world of quality non-degree credentials, Dr. Van Noy provides important context on this topic to ground us in this season’s podcast theme. She shares research she has led at EERC on the quality non-degree credentials ecosystem and growing interest and investments by states and institutions. This includes the recent publication Making Sense of Quality in the Non-Degree Credential (NDC) Marketplace- Implications for Policymakers and Practitioners.
Dr. Van Noy elaborates on the elements of quality non-degree credentials, highlights additional research and resources on this topic, including states that are leading the way and offers insights on questions to explore with upcoming guests - students, college leaders and policymakers on non-degree credentials of value.
The All In: Student Pathways Forward podcast is a part of Oregon’s participation in the National Skills Coalition SkillSPAN network.
Welcome to the All-In Student Pathways Board Podcast, focused on elevating community college student voices along with those of college executives, policymakers, and higher education advocates to shape inclusive policies, practice, and partnerships. This is the host, Mark Goldberg, and it's an honor to speak with students and graduates who share their community college experiences, offer practical solutions to make colleges more student-centered, and hear from college leaders and policymakers listening in and reacting to the students' recommendations, building on their solutions and calls to action. Season three of the podcast will feature students and graduates of quality, career pathways, and non-degree credentials to value programs, which has been a critical strategy and program design, particularly for adult learners looking to reskill or upskill through credit and non-credit programs that are stackable and accelerate pathways that propel education and career progression. Thanks for listening in. This introductory episode includes a great conversation with Dr. Michelle Van Noy, the Director of the Education and Employment Research Center at the School of Management and Labor Relations at Rutgers University. Dr. Van Noy is the leading scholar in the world of quality non-degree credentials, especially in the non-credit arena. Our discussion provides invaluable context for the season ahead as we consider the ecosystem and growing interest and investments in quality, non-credit, and credit credentials available at community colleges. I'd like to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Dr. Michelle Van Noy, who is the Director and Associate Research Professor at the Education and Employment Research Center at Rectors, the State University of New Jersey. Welcome, Michelle, to the All In Student Pathways Forward Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Mark. Thanks so much for having me here today. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for sharing your expertise with me and with our All-In listeners today. For many of us who have been a part of community college workforce development programs, many of us are familiar with your research and the work you've led across the country. But for individuals who may not be as familiar, I wanted to start and ask you if you could share a bit more about the Education and Employment Research Center at the School of Management and Labor Relations and how this work advances and supports community college workforce development efforts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd be happy to. So EERC, we're a research center, and our main focus is that link between education and work. So it's a very broad mandate, but a lot of our work is really focused on community colleges and more recently on credentials. To just broadly describe the areas of work that we have at our center, we have a group of projects that focus on student decision making about majors and careers, how students navigate career decisions and pathways that they follow. We have a group of studies that take a look at, you know, more explicitly at the links between education and the labor market. So projects that look at the use of labor market information or economic development projects in the world of community colleges and the economy. We have a host of projects that look at STEM and technician education. And then we have a lot of projects traditionally over the years that have focused on community colleges and different kinds of workforce education reforms that are happening within community colleges, both research and evaluation. And then, of course, more recently, we've been doing a fair amount of work looking at non-degree credentials and non-credit education and non-credit, particularly in the context of community colleges. So a lot of things going on, hopefully of help to the field. The goal of our research is really to do work that informs policy and practice. And that's the goal of the research that we do.
SPEAKER_00That's a pretty broad spectrum of expertise and research. And I think the last one where you ended with non-degree credentials is the one I wanted to spend more time with you today on. And I'm thrilled to have you on to kick off season three of the podcast. As in past seasons, the focus will be on centering community college student voices to shape inclusive policy practice and partnerships. But building on the themes of season one, which was student financial and basic needs and security, and season two, job quality, this season will concentrate on the important and timely topic of quality career pathways and non-degree credentials of value. And since that is an area of expertise with you and the center, wanted to ask if you could talk a little bit more about the research you've led on non-degree credentials of value and how they support equitable student success and career opportunities.
SPEAKER_01I think there's a lot to be learned in this area. Non-deview credentials and non-credit education have been around for a long time and people have been pursuing them, but I think there are many reasons why they're becoming of greater interest with potential increases in funding coming down. And already states are increasing investment in non-deview credentials and non-credit to help people get onto pathways more quickly. I think there's a lot that we need to know about what's going on in this area, rising questions around quality. How do we know if these credentials are any good? How do we even define quality? And then how do we go about measuring it and knowing that there's a real lack of data around the country to measure quality or to measure student outcomes? And so we've been doing a lot of work trying to understand the data infrastructure that's available to measure outcomes and to think about quality. We've also been interested in looking at what institutions are doing, what community colleges are doing in their non-credit programs, and how do they conceive of quality. And then, of course, there's understanding the student experience. That's also something that's not well understood in terms of who are the students and what are their goals and what are their outcomes. So I see a variety of threads to our research. One is mapping out what quality is, what the ecosystem around implementing quality measures are, what the data exists, and understanding the institutions of the students. So there's a lot to be learned in this area. And we're trying to come at it from a variety of angles and working with a lot of partners to do research and try and contribute to the conversation.
SPEAKER_00That's really helpful. And as you are describing these questions and areas within this field, it reminds me that it's almost its own or has been its own ecosystem. And there's a lot of work to bring it into the traditional credit side and map non-credit to credit and stackability. And we can talk more about that. But as you were talking about quality and how to measure outcomes and the student experience, and it just brought me back to my own time leading non-credit programs and institutional meetings, hearing folks say, Well, we don't really have data for your programs, but we know on the credit side, but these are students who have career goals and they're accessing really dynamic programs. And it's unfortunate we don't have the data.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. No, that is true. And I think that's one of the things we're trying to unpack, like I said, at those different levels and give light to that. One of the earlier papers on non-credit was dubbed the term the hidden college to talk about what non-credit is, and largely because of this issue of so much activity happening in the non-credit realm and so little information about what it is, it's almost like it doesn't exist because the data isn't there. And that's not true. Of course, we know it exists, but the fact that we can't measure it makes it a lot harder to tell a story about what it is and what its impact is. There's a lot of diversity into non-credit, which I think is one of the things that makes it hardest to study because it's not one thing. We talk about what an associate degree is or a bachelor's degree, and we have some sense of what that is. Like how much time do you spend, what the content or something of the outcomes are. Obviously, there's still more to be learned there and refined, but I think in non-credit, the the diversity of programs and program goals is very, very wide, which I think just calls on us to better understand it and articulate it so that when we're talking about outcomes, we know what we're talking about. So I think that's really an important thing to keep in mind when having these conversations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think just another element of who are non-credit students, it runs the gamut, right? It may be someone who is working towards a high school equivalency, but it may also be someone with a master's degree who's reskilling into a different career because of turbulence in the labor market or in an industry that they're in. So it's such a diverse group of students and learners.
SPEAKER_01Right. And that's definitely one of the things that we're trying to tackle in some of the research we're doing, both in terms of understanding the students, but also I think another angle into understanding this is understanding what the programs are. So, what are non-credit programs, and by extension, you know, which student population might they be serving, or what kind of career goals or life goals could they be driving towards? And so we have colleagues of mine, Mark D'Amico at UNC Charlotte, is a close collaborator on some of my work, has uh a taxonomy that he put together years ago, just with four basic general types of non-credit, which I think you sort of alluded to. There's your occupational non-credit, there's contract training, which is also occupationally oriented, but paid for by an employer. We have avocational, which is more recreational, personal interest, but that's a big area that in some places in terms of non-credit offerings. And then, of course, there's the basic skills, could be VSL or GD prep or developmental education. There's a whole host of other things that are happening in that area. Sometimes that can be even occupationally oriented, but there are these distinct areas of non-credit. And then even within some of those, you can start to break it down further. So beyond these four categories, I would argue that within occupational education, there are further categories, like you alluded to. Some occupational non-credit is focused towards people who already have bachelor's degrees. It's ongoing professional development. But then there's also a segment that's intended to help people who don't have bachelor's degrees or in another credential get into a career. And if we segment those out further, some of those are tied to well-paying careers, and some of those are tied to a job that would lead to a well-paying career with further education. And in some cases, they're leading to jobs that may not have great pathways. So when we think about policy, I think we know which one of those areas we're trying to focus on. We want to help people get into programs that lead to good jobs, but there's a lot going on here that needs to be unpacked. And then beyond that, there's of course non-credit programs that may be focused on very specific and narrow skills that are also valuable to people, but aren't necessarily preparing someone to enter into a full-on career path.
SPEAKER_00That's really helpful. And to add to that, to make it even more complex, is there are also non-degree credentials on the credit side that are also tied to labor market demands that may stack into an associate's degree. So that's like another sub-segment of the non-degree credential world that may have different reimbursement models, but similar challenges in some ways to the non-credit world in terms of financial aid eligible and it's complicated.
SPEAKER_01That's true. And I think that's a really important point, too, that you made about non-degree credentials can cut across the credit and non-credit. And so while we think about them sometimes often in tandem with non-credit, they're kind of a separate but related entity, right? So a lot of non-credit programs can lead to an award of a certificate, which is a type of non-degree credential, or non-credit programs can also lead someone to be prepared to obtain an industry certification or a license, which are other forms of non-degree credentials. And of course, likewise, credit programs can also issue certificates or also prepare people to attain these other kinds of non-degree credentials. So it's an interesting sort of intersection between each of these areas, which all sort of on some level have, in many cases, that similar goal of helping people get to good jobs, but a whole complex set of funding streams and locations within institutions and also institutional providers as well. So there's a lot going on in this ecosystem to make sense of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think to build on that and to come back to some of where you started and the questions that the center is looking at really want to ask you about quality. And so, how does EERC define quality non-degree credentials? And how do you see community college programs fitting into whatever definition you have or framework that the center uses?
SPEAKER_01That's a really great question. And I think what I would say is that I don't know that we have necessarily a definition. I think there's a lot of definitions out there. What we've tried to do is sort of map out the conceptual framework to make sense of various definitions. We have a paper that lays that out in broad terms and provides some examples and suggestions of what some of those measures might be that fall underneath that broad conceptual framework. But I will say that I think there's been a lot of really useful efforts working with different stakeholders, with a lot of state groups and also institutions to map out what are potentially effective measures of quality in whatever context it is. So every state is sitting down and thinking, what does a quality non-degree credential mean in the context of our state and our policy goals and policy environment? We've tried to make sense of all these different activities. I would say broadly, there's different quality measures that fall under this category of elements that relate to the design of the credential. You know, what's the content of it? If it's a classroom-based, what's the instructional component of it? What's the assessment? How is the assessment being used for the credential? What are some of the outreach efforts and attempts to make it more inclusive and accessible? I think there's a lot of measures that go to how the credential itself is designed. So we could say, okay, whatever we define as being those quality elements, that would lead you to a high quality credential if all those are met. Presumably, if all those are met, you're going to hope that the person who gets the credential is going to have a set of skills and competencies. That's what a credential is intended to do, is to mark that somebody has attained an important set of skills and competencies and knowledge. But that's like within the individual, they have those. I think what everybody cares about ultimately is what are those outcomes? And oftentimes, what are the outcomes for the student? Are they getting higher earnings? Are they getting better jobs? Are they able to continue on with education? So those are important outcomes, and we can figure out what those outcomes of value are for an individual. At the same time, stepping back and looking at the ecosystem, you recognize there are also employer outcomes that are valuable but are different potentially from the student outcomes from the employer perspective. They want to know is this credential a good marker? Does it help me do better hiring? Does it help me find people that have the skills I need? Does it help me find people that I can retain better and advance better in certain jobs? So that's what we hear from employer groups. Then you can also take it out and what are the community benefits, societal benefits, right? If you have people with high quality credentials, potentially, you know, there's more health and more equity and a lot of things that benefit the society as a whole. These are all things that are hard to measure, but if we recognize that there are potential outcomes, it also helps us conceive of where we want things to go. One of the things that we often don't articulate, I think, is that the link between the high quality credential and the outcomes of value, right? So if we have a high quality credential and we have people with competencies, it doesn't necessarily guarantee it's going to lead to an outcome of value. And so I think that's one of the things we're trying to point out in our conceptualization of this is that there are a set of market processes or translation processes that happen to make a credential be known and recognized in the market and lead to outcomes of value. Sometimes there's market failures where maybe you have really skilled workers, but they're still not getting paid a lot, not getting the outcomes we care about. We see that in certain care occupations, and that points us to certain issues. We also have sometimes new credentials that come out, and maybe employers don't know about them, so they don't use them. So that's also an information problem that can be changed with better translations. So I like to think about these broad categories to just help us make sense of what's going on in terms of high quality credential potentially getting translated to outcomes of values. So I guess I offer those ideas and definitions with the idea that every state, every institution may have slightly different priorities. There's different stakeholders that will have different definitions that resonate more, like I pointed out. Individuals versus employers, for example, might have different definitions that are meaningful versus policymakers. So those are some ideas on quality and how to define it. It's an important conversation, I think, for every group to engage in and thoughtfully consider.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think as you were describing that, it just illustrates how it's not one-dimensional. How can colleges look at this from the student lens first and foremost, so that it's a quality credential with the right design and that does lead to an outcome of value for the student, and then with employers and then the larger communities. As you pointed out, there can be elements of that, but ultimately it may not have the wages or the earnings, and then there's additional work there to engage with employers who may be struggling with retention issues, but then you can come back to job quality too, as part of that.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think that to some extent, having these conversations about what's happening with different occupations is important to identify those undervalued occupations where the earnings really aren't there and the credential may not be rewarded. But there may be other things going on in the labor market. And so it may not be that the credential is not of value, it's just that there are other issues that need to be addressed, like you said, job quality issues. So I think that's important, just like identifying the problem here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So just staying on this topic in the book Credentials that you co-wrote with Dr. Paul L. Gaston, you have an entire chapter on quality and equity. I wanted to ask if you could talk more about how quality non-degree credentials can support and advance work colleges are focused on in closing opportunity gaps and increasing racial, gender, and geographic equity.
SPEAKER_01It is a complicated set of issues there, I think, when you're talking about closing the gaps that we know are present. When we wrote the book about credentials, you know, we were really thinking about quality and equity, very much intertwined concepts here, that ensuring quality is also ensuring equity and that those two things need to be taken into consideration at the same time, right? So we're thinking about quality design. We want to make sure that the elements of how a credential is deployed are equitable across all populations. And that's an important part, like inherently in thinking about the design of a credential and looking at the outcomes also should be done through an equity lens. So I think that those are all important ways that we understand and assess credentials throughout the process. I think when we think about non-degree credential areas and short-term training and non-credit, I think things get complicated in terms of thinking about the kinds of pathways that people are entering into and making sure that they lead someplace. I know there's a lot of efforts in terms of articulating these programs into longer degree programs, because that's an important equity consideration, is not to be diverting people from degree programs, but rather helping to open up opportunity and helping people to access longer pathways and envision for themselves a longer pathway for education. That's a very important equity piece, particularly when thinking about non-degree credentials. We're about to embark on some student interviews, students who are in non-credit programs to better understand what their goals are in entering the programs and what they're thinking about, how they envision their educational pathways. There's many, many different potential motivations and trying to understand that better, I think is an important piece of unpacking this puzzle of what's happening in non-credit.
SPEAKER_00That's really helpful. So just thinking about quality non-degree credentials and how they have been and can be a valuable option for new majority learners who many times are juggling work, family, financial responsibilities. I was wondering from your research, what type of supports are important to assist these learners in completing their credential and gaining careers with economic mobility. And in that question thinking, as you've been pointing out, the importance of design, any sort of stackability and alignment with these longer pathways.
SPEAKER_01I think looking at other areas where I've studied in terms of like career pathways development and things, I think that the same ideas apply here. And we don't see a lot of student supports necessarily naturally tied to non-credit programs at community colleges. So navigators that help students figure out what they want to study and help them handle personal issues that might come up while they're in a program or get more academic support while they're in a program, things like that aren't always available. And in some cases, they are. I think that's one of the things that's really all over the map in terms of non-credit. Sometimes there will be grant programs that will provide those supports really nicely in the context of non-credit programs. But in general as a whole, there tends not to be very stable support for that kind of help for students. We do see a lot more on the credit side, and that's a big difference. I mean, even just access to things like career services or career planning or advising and counseling, things like that, they're not always readily available for students. And I think that may go to that point of integrating non-credit more into the college. So if the new majority learners that come into the non-credit programs are seen as just regular college students, right? And all these services are available and they're more easily integrated to the college. That may be a change that could address some of those challenges that may be there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems like it is an equity issue then, too. If we have tiers of what's accessible to the students, it just makes me think of conversations in the past of a student is a student is a student. It seems like that's starting to shift. I just learned last week about a state that is now funding navigators for non-credit workforce training students to do just that. But I think that hasn't been the norm, as you were saying.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. And the change that is coming, we highlight some of those issues in some of the recent research that we've done on community college programs and then how they approach quality. So I think there are some emergent examples there, like you said, states and some institutions that are doing that work.
SPEAKER_00So well, I want to come back to one of those stakeholders you talked about as we were discussing quality outcomes of value, and that's employers. And know they are an important stakeholder in this non-degree credential of value world, ensuring that these credentials lead to quality employment opportunities or advancement opportunities for learners. Aside from hiring program completers, what other innovative ways have you seen employers engage in these community college non degree credential programs?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's interesting. I think we have seen examples of colleges working very closely with their local employers to design the programs and to. implement them and so there's many examples around the country but one that comes to mind from my research is McGuardia Community College and they've worked very closely one example is a community health program where they're working very closely with hospitals and other health providers in their immediate area to design the programs, figure out what the employers need. And the employers are very invested in that development process that leads to the hiring but I think it's that imprint and it's also involvement with the students in some of the classes. We see that in some of the other colleges that we've studied and we can talk about how you do that and you balance the needs of many employers to think more about the community needs overall rather than just prioritizing one employer and letting them have a strong voice in the program. It's about balancing many employers and thinking about the regional economy. But I do think those strategies for engagement are another important angle on this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I do appreciate what you're saying about considering the labor market and the economy and who's at the table and who's not and whose voice is heard and loudest. And in many cases it is the big employer in the region and those relationships are really important but it does need to be a diverse mix of employers. So I know a site of research from Strata Education Foundation and Lumina and Gallup, among others continue to indicate that learners see the value of higher education overall and especially those post-secondary credentials offered at community colleges that build the skills set map to quality jobs in their local communities. However we know costs continue to top the list of why learners are not accessing or completing quality credentials. Wondering if you know what are some innovative approaches that states and colleges have taken or could take to address the access and affordability of quality non-degree credential programs.
SPEAKER_01I think it's interesting that there's really been an explosion of state investment, I think, in some of these programs. I know HDM strategists just released a review of targeted state workforce investments in these kinds of programs across the country and there's really been a lot of them we study Fast Forward in Virginia for example in some of the recent projects that we've done and there are many others like that. You know, that's certainly one way to make these programs more accessible is state commitment to funding them and thinking about how that can move to be more institutionalized and more permanent part of the state funding landscape. Tying that in with quality initiatives is obviously the key piece here too having states think thoughtfully about what a quality non-degree credential is and I might argue thinking about how that even connects into economic development goals because I think those are all intertwined. That's obviously another important goal from the perspective of states. The access piece on some level is thinking intentionally about which communities need to benefit the most I know that Broward Community College has done some target investments on which student populations have been most left out in terms of economic mobility and targeting some of the programs towards those communities that are most in need. And so I think there can be some thoughtful approaches like that as well that can address some of the access and affordability questions that are definitely at play here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it sounds like at the state level and and local or institutional and appreciate you pointing out the Fast Forward initiative in Virginia and then the report that HCM Strategist has recently published and the example from Florida with Broward. And I think to build on that coming back to this podcast it has featured the past two seasons Oregon community college students, including some from quality non-degree credential programs, which has not been surprising given that Oregon has been a leader in stockable short-term credentials and has had an established career pathways framework for over 15 years. But for this season in addition to Oregon college students I had the opportunity to speak with community and technical college students from other states as well. So wondering from your research and having worked with colleges and higher ed systems across the country what other states you mentioned Virginia already have implemented dynamic non-degree credential value initiatives with supporting investments.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean I think there's a lot of activity around the country we've done a lot of work with Louisiana they have another targeted investment the MJ Foster program and they're really thinking hard about building their data infrastructure and understanding student outcomes. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Iowa for having fantastic data systems in terms of thinking about quality outcomes and tracking those in terms of non-credit there's a ton of activity going on in states. And some ways I would point to the work of the National Skills Coalition they've done a lot of work with states and continue to do that in terms of helping them build quality frameworks and there's many many states that they've worked with I've been hearing recently about work that's been going on in Colorado for example in terms of developing a framework for non-degree credentials I think that's about to be launched that seems like a very exciting step forward as well. There's so much activity going on across the country it's hard for me to point to just one place because I know there's many many other states. I've had conversations with numerous states from across the country that are thinking about this. One of the things I think is really important is facilitating the sharing of these lessons across states. Some of this is very unique to different contexts. On the other hand, I do think that we are at a moment where we are creating new data systems and you know while they don't exactly have to be all the same it would be nice if we had somewhat consistent terminology that we can all share and use and maybe even some approaches that are harmonious at least certainly they can be specific to certain contexts but I think if we're building a new system let's try and make it interoperable and sensible so that we can all understand transparency across every context.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and that's a really good point and recognizing there are unique priorities in each state but if there's some uniformity it would make it easier in looking at the data and comparison coming back to quality you've touched on some states Louisiana and Iowa strengths within those states in this world of quality non-degree credentials and then back to National Skills Coalition who's been a partner with this podcast through the Skill Span initiative. So you mentioned the HCM strategist report but I wanted to ask for listeners interested in diving in deeper on the topic of quality career pathways, non-degree credentials of value are there other helpful resources that you might offer up to share?
SPEAKER_01We have some work that we've done around the quality ecosystem around non-degree credentials to try to map out the different organizations that are involved in that work. We have a paper that was done on that and we're working on an update to that which will be out later this year. So I think that's a different level trying to make sense of this overall landscape. And like I said we have things at the institutional level looking at what colleges are doing and then a review paper that's coming out soon that's going to take a look at some of the early data that's out on outcomes. And then of course there's our state noncredit data project where we're working with a lot of states to think through these issues around noncredit and how they're collecting data. So those are many things that are happening within EERC. Of course there's a lot of other exciting things that are happening in the field and I could go through and list all these other things. I will say in that paper that we're doing now that reviews this ecosystem it's a landscape scan we will have a resource at the end which will list many many of the organizations that are involved in these efforts and including links to reports and things that they're doing. So again there's a lot of organizations that are contributing some really valuable work. One other group that's also been doing a nice job of bringing this all together has been the non-degree credentials research network that's been housed at George Washington University. And they have been compiling a lot of reports and convening researchers who are focused on these topics and these issues. And so I think that's another good resource for gathering information and ongoing kinds of newly released research and other reports on the topic.
SPEAKER_00That's really helpful and look forward to seeing the updated landscape scan and the list of other organizations in addition to the non-degree credential research network at George Washington.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00You had talked earlier about some of the upcoming research and student interviews and so wanted to come back to the theme of this podcast, which is really student voice. So how do you think student voice and student insights from those in quality non-degree credential programs can help influence and shape better policies and practice within higher education some of the things that we've come up in our conversation I think are really going to be key elements we want to look at what are some of the motivations that draw people to these programs?
SPEAKER_01What interests them? What are their goals? How much are they attracted to the credential versus the skill? How much of it is exploratory how much do they see the pathways ahead of them what are they really hoping to get out of them are these programs meeting their expectations do they come in with a certain set of hopes about what they were going to get and are the programs you know aligning with those expectations we hope that this will really give voice to give feedback to colleges to states policymakers practitioners about how students are experiencing these programs and really if they're meeting the students' needs and if there are other things that students are looking for, you know, just to better understand what their hopes are with these programs.
SPEAKER_00So yeah I think there will be a lot of interesting insights from those conversations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think we're really at a moment where there's a lot of research being done on student outcomes and looking at earnings and progression and that's super important. And what I hope we will do is just to give light to some of the underlying questions of motivations and make sense of those trends we see.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's back to also the outcomes of value and how a student would define and as this season of the All Own Student Pathways Forward podcast kicks off focused on quality non-degree credentials wanted to ask you what questions you think would be most interesting to ask community college students building on this topic or graduates of the programs or have completed non-degree credentials of value.
SPEAKER_01And also how about college executives in addition to students for the students I would love to turn to them and ask them that question what is a quality program to you? What were your hopes? Where did you hope this program was going to lead you in an ideal world what is a quality program for administrators? I mean that was one of the things that I think was very interesting about some of the recent research we've done with community colleges is how do college administrators think about non-credit how do they know that their programs are good? What do they think they offer that that's unique, that's high quality I think there's some very rich responses there that I'm endlessly curious to hear people talk about how they put the programs together, what their motivations are and what needs they hope they're serving. So from the college executive perspective that would be some of the questions I'd ask.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it's helpful to consider those questions for both students and executives underlying with quality and motivations and pathways with that work. So I think you've touched on this some with other organizations like George Washington's non-degree credential research network, HCM and National Skills Coalition, but wondered if there's anyone else that you think of that would be helpful to have on future episodes this season following students and college executives to share important perspective and insights on this world of non-degree credentials of value from a national policy and research lens.
SPEAKER_01I will say I mean one trend I'm curiously following is where the accreditors go with this. So I think there are some accrediting groups that are doing work around non-accredit, non-degree credential quality and thinking about that from an accreditation perspective and how that might evolve. And so I think hearing those perspectives could be very interesting in the months that come ahead of us. I think the other thing is just hearing more from state policy leaders around different funding models and thinking about what those incentives could look like and how they're thinking about possibly making some of these investments a more permanent part of the landscape. Those are some of the big topic areas that come to mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah that's really helpful. And I hadn't thought about the accrediting body or organizations that is a vital stakeholder for colleges and how things are shifting in this non-degree credential world and what the perspectives are there in addition to state policy leaders because as you've touched on in different ways from this conversation there's so much work happening in this space across the country so it would be interesting as states are learning from one another and borrowing and adapting certain investments or data systems or quality definitions or the integration of non-credit and credit and that stackability. So it is the perfect time to look at this and to get the chance to chat with students, college executives and researchers and policymakers. So I think that's a great way to wrap up here and I just wanted to ask if there's anything else that you'd like to share on this topic of non-degree credentials of value.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I really appreciate the chance to share my perspectives I think this is an area that's just a lot of activity and a lot of ongoing evolving thought and policy and I'm glad to be part of these conversations and to have so many intelligent, thoughtful people trying to tackle this issue and build something that's effective and really helps students and helps create a better educational landscape that leads to opportunity for everybody. So thanks for the chance to talk to you today, Mark.
SPEAKER_00Well thank you for sharing so many insights and sharing your expertise I've learned a lot from this conversation. I think it's the perfect way to really set the stage for this season and I look forward to having conversations with students and being able to ask them what is a quality program for you and really get at their motivations and think about that exploration and career goals and then as you pointed out too other stakeholders in terms of the institution the state employers and the community all these different organizations or individuals that are part of the ecosystem. Just want to thank you Michelle for taking the time and again sharing so much on this important topic of quality non-degree credentials. Well that will do it for this introductory all-in episode for season three thanks for listening in we'll be back soon with the first episode featuring a community college graduate from a quality non-degree credential program and our first ever from a community college outside the state of Oregon at an institution that has a long history of innovative and responsive career pathway programs. More to come soon and hope you'll tune in