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All In: Student Pathways Forward
This podcast focuses on elevating community college student voices to shape inclusive higher education and workforce development policies, practice and partnerships that create economic mobility.
All In: Student Pathways Forward
Clark State College graduate Lemohang Mokhalinyane, Clark State President Dr. Jo Blondin & Higher Learning Commission President Dr. Barbara Gellman-Danley
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In this episode host Marc Goldberg interviews Clark State College nursing graduate Lemohang Mokhalinyane and then a follow up conversation with both Clark State College President Dr. Jo Blondin and Higher Learning Commission (HLC) President Dr. Barbara Gellman-Danley.
Lemoh describes her experience as a student in the nursing pathway at Clark State - first in the Licensed Practical Nursing program leading to employment and then the Registered Nursing program. She highlights the incredible support and guidance she received from college faculty and staff as a student and the culture of meeting students where they’re at. Lemoh also describes the benefit of enrolling in and completing a non-degree credential of value in her educational journey at Clark State.
Dr. Blondin and Dr. Gellman-Danley, both transformative, student-centered leaders with expertise advocating and shifting systems at the local, state and national level, share their reflections from the interview with Lemoh and elaborate on the topic of quality non-degree credentials.
Dr. Blondin describes how Clark State has established meaningful on-ramp and off-ramp credential programs to support student goals. Dr. Gellman-Danley offers expertise and insights from the lens of an accrediting board and how HLC has prioritized non-degree credential programs in their work with member institutions. Both Dr. Blondin and Dr. Gellman-Danley emphasize the importance of centering students and student intent when considering policies and practice at the institutional and national level.
The All In: Student Pathways Forward podcast is a part of Oregon’s participation in the National Skills Coalition SkillSPAN network and supported by the Lumina Foundation.
Introduction
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the All-In Student Pathways Board Podcast, focused on elevating community college student voices, along with those of college executives, policymakers, and higher education advocates to shape inclusive policies, practice, and partnerships. This is the host, Mark Goldberg, and this season the podcast features students of quality, career pathways, and non-degree credential programs. Thanks for listening in. This episode features interviews with Clark State nursing graduate Lemo Han, Makadinyan, and then both Clark State College President, Dr. Joe Blondon, and Higher Learning Commission President, Dr. Barbara Gelman Danley. Lemo describes her experience as a student in the nursing pathway at Clark State, first in the LPN program leading to employment, and then the RN program. She highlights the incredible support and guidance she received from college faculty and staff as a student, and the culture of meeting students where they're at, as well as the benefit of enrolling in and completing a non-degree credential of value program and her educational journey at the college. Dr. Blonden and Dr. Gellin Danley, both transformative student-centered leaders with expertise advocating and shifting systems at the local, state, and national level, share their reflections from the interview with Lemo and elaborate on the topic of quality non-degree credentials. Dr. Blonden describes how Clark State has established meaningful on-ramp and off-ramp credential programs to support student goals. Dr. Gelman Danley offers expertise and insights from the lens of an accrediting board and how HLC has prioritized non-degree credential programs in their work with member institutions. Both Dr. Blonden and Dr. Gelman Danley emphasize the importance of centering students and student intent when considering policies and practice at the institutional and national level. I'd like to welcome my featured guest to the podcast today, Lemohan Machadinian, who is a student and graduate from Clark State College in Ohio. Welcome, Lemo, to the All in Student Pathways Forward podcast.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Mark. Thank you so much for having me on and giving me the opportunity to share my story at Clark State.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, look forward to getting to know you more and hearing your experience at the college as a student. So I wanted to start by asking you if you could talk about your journey to Clark State College and why you chose to enroll in courses there.
SPEAKER_00So my story is quite unique. I am an international student from Lesotho. And I would say that I did not choose Clarks State, but Clarks State chose me. I came to United States through Springfield Rotary Club,
Interview - Clark State College graduate - Lemohang Mokhalinyane
SPEAKER_00and enrolling at Clarkstate was something that made sense because I came here straight out of high school in a developing country in Southern Africa. So enrolling at Clarks State seemed like the right next step. So yeah, that's why I did that.
SPEAKER_03That's so interesting that you came to the community in Springfield through the Rotary Club and decided to enroll in classes there. And what did you choose to pursue in terms of your educational pathway?
SPEAKER_00At first, growing up, I knew that I wanted to be in radio because I thought I had a voice for it and I loved broadcasting. But later on, I realized that broadcasting may not give me the lifestyle that I really want. And I switched from that to accounting. And I also realized that I was not a meth person, and then switched from that to nursing. And this is where I found my passion, and I stuck with it, and here we are.
SPEAKER_03That's so great. And yeah, maybe from this conversation on the podcast, you'll get a teeny bit of something like radio broadcasting on the side and getting to share more about your experience in the nursing program.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03So with that, I wanted to ask you from your experience at Clark State as a student, what was the biggest highlight for you?
SPEAKER_00At Clark State, I would say my biggest highlight was the instructors and the faculties. I feel like I have made long-term friends and I received a lot of support from my peers and my instructors and faculty. They made sure that I was familiar with the campus. I knew about the resources that were available for students. Coming from a developing country and straight out of high school, I felt like we didn't have that in abundance. We had some resources, but they were very limited. The faculty make sure that you complete your degree or your certificate and finish and be able to support your lifestyle. That's one thing that I love about Clax State is that they meet you where you are. So they held my hand, guided me through figuring out my major, figuring out financial aid. And I think that was very helpful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's great to hear. Are there any other challenges you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_00I would say the biggest challenge was, you know, I already speak English as my second language. And once I decided that I was gonna go to nursing, it felt like I was learning a different language altogether. Because, you know, medical terms, that's not something that you hear every day if your family is not in medicine. So I felt like I was facing another barrier. I felt like I was learning another language altogether. In the end of the day, I would say dropped my grade leading to being unsuccessful in some courses, but my support system still stood by my side during that time, and they understood that this is new for her. I like saying this that I am one of the first, like I'm the first child in my family to graduate high school, first child to graduate from college. Even though to some people might sound like a big deal, it is a big deal to me. It's something that I learned a lot from. So you definitely have to adjust a lot of things when you are in nursing school. It's not easy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I wanted to back up a little bit. The podcast this season is featuring students or graduates of quality credential or certificate programs that are shorter than an associate's degree and do prepare students for career opportunities and also to continue their education in an accelerated manner. So, from your perspective, how was the LPN program at Clark State designed as a quality non-degree credential program that prepares students for careers in the field? And how did it meet your needs as a student?
SPEAKER_00That is a very good question. Thank you for asking that. I would say that the program itself at Clark State is solid. The program is designed to help students provide safe care and be able to perform skills under their scope of practice once they step out of school. Another big thing that the program does, in my experience, they prepared me to take and pass the ENCLEX after completing the program. And to me, that is really, really important. They provided resources for us to utilize and be successful when we take the NCLEX.
SPEAKER_03So it sounds like part of it in being a quality non-degree program was the way it was designed to prepare students to provide safe care.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then building on that, I think for the field of nursing as an LPN or an RN, you can't practice without certification. And in order to gain that certification or licensure, you have to pass the NCLEX exam. That really is the ticket to jobs as an LPN or an RN.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it is a big deal for us students. Passing the course is great, but then you also know that you have this the umbrella, you have this huge exam hanging over your head. So passing the NCLEX kind of seals the deal and doing it the first time. Like no one prepares you for the excitement. And when you get that message that you passed, the people that I thought of were my instructors. I was like, oh my gosh, I would not have done this without their guidance and their dedication in teaching us and making sure that we understand and know our stuff. And I felt like I needed to thank them personally, which I did.
SPEAKER_03Well, that is such a significant milestone. And to pass on the first time is even more incredible. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03So, knowing, Lemo, that you completed the LPN program and then decided to continue on in the registered nursing program, how were those two programs connected, if at all?
SPEAKER_00It's a stepping stone. So the LPN program, when they design it, they have in mind that you will go back to school for your RN. I didn't feel like I was starting from scratch. I felt like I was building on something that I already knew. The coursework was still heavy as expected. But instead of doing four semesters, I did three semesters. So RN is two years or four semesters. But if you're gonna do LPN to RN, it is just three semesters. And that allows people to still work and be in school. And I thought that was really helpful. I didn't feel like, oh, I took this class in my LPN. Why am I taking this class in here? It flows very well, it's a continuation. The way it's built is to help you get more knowledge and not feel like you are wasting your time.
SPEAKER_03I think that's an important consideration. I really appreciate that reflection. So for both the LPN and the RN programs, I wanted to ask you, Lemo, what elements of either of those programs were most helpful to you in completing them?
SPEAKER_00I will say invest in time in ATI, which is a resource provided by school. And I loved how much our instructors emphasized the importance of it. So when you complete the RN and LPN, there is something that's called ATI live review. It's a three-day live review, like eight hours long. So it's a lot of sitting, you have to focus. But I love that they made it mandatory because the numbers prove that if you attend this three-day course, you are going to be successful in your N CLEX. And that's exactly what I experienced. And another thing is our instructors, they are there rooting for all of us, they are cheering us on. And I would like to you know send a shout out to some of them if that's okay on this podcast. Of course. So this is no particular order at all. But I would love to thank Sarah, I would like to thank Brandy, Alicia, Kara, Emily, Courtney, Mark Schmidt, and Nina Wiley. Nina Wiley is not an instructor, but she is a faculty. And I cannot tell you how many times I have gone to her office crying and just feeling like I don't belong there, or I made the wrong decision about going into nursing. But Nina Wiley assured me all the time that of course I belong there and I made the right decision. Sometimes you just need to be patient with yourself. One thing that Clark State is doing that I benefited a lot from is offering scholarships. That to me is one of the biggest things that they have done to make sure that their students succeed. I just wanted to point that out that Clark State offers a ton of scholarships. You will definitely get help. I love that. I benefited a lot from scholarships offered at Clark State.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and we know that finances or lack thereof is a primary reason why students are not able to continue forward. And so it sounds like that's a strength of the college of helping students access those scholarships.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03So appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious, as you have talked about the faculty, once you passed the NCLEX, was there anyone on the campus that was part of the work you did in looking for employment opportunities?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh my gosh. Our instructors were on top of this. So during that live review, or even before we were done with the program, they brought in recruiters from different hospitals. And they were on campus for several hours giving information. And before instructors brought people in, they were always asking about our interest in healthcare. Like, hey, what do you think you would want to do when you graduate? And then from our answers, they were able to bring in the right people so we can ask the right questions, hear more from them, from their experience. And I thought that was brilliant to have them prioritize us, their students at all times. It's just it's beautiful to see.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you gave a shout out to the different faculty. Since we were just talking about that connection to employment, I would love to ask you if you could share more about the job that you had after completing the LPN program. And how did the college program, the LPN program, prepare you for that opportunity?
SPEAKER_00So, backup story. I actually graduate May of 2020, and we know what was going on in 2020. The world, the country of the United States, we're dealing with COVID-19. The school did their part in preparing me to being a safe nurse and passing the NCLEX, but I was not prepared for what was going on. And I also think even seasoned nurses or other healthcare workers were not prepared for what was happening. I would say that experience taught me so much about medicine. Yes, it was fast. I was a baby nurse. It was definitely really, really hard. But I was able to connect with my patients because for a long time family members were not allowed to come and visit. But I learned a lot about them. I learned a lot about myself as an individual. And at that moment, I realized that yes, this is what I want to be. I want to be a nurse, I want to be a safe nurse, and I want to have as much knowledge as I can to be a safe nurse and a good nurse. And that's why I went back to get my RN, and that's why I'm back in school for my BSN. So that experience just made me want to be more than what I was then.
SPEAKER_03What type of setting was the employer?
SPEAKER_00I was in a nursing home. So we were taking care of our elderly, and we know that they were one of the most vulnerable. So we had to be really, really careful, and we had to emphasize the rules about wearing a mask, people coming in and out. We have to record everything pretty much, just so in case something happens, we'll be able to track it and do contact tracing. But that experience is something that I will never forget. But like I said, it just encouraged me and enriched my desire to continue in the healthcare system. And hopefully, one day I will get my NP. And I cannot wait for that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's fantastic. What a way to step into the workplace after completing your NCLEX and the LPN program in May of 2020. And it sounds like for you it did solidify your passion and interest in being in this field.
SPEAKER_00I did ask myself, do you still want to do this? And it turned out that yeah, I just I want to be good at it. And I I want family members to feel comfortable leaving their loved ones in my care. And I can only do that through education. And programs like this at Clark State, they allow that stepping stone for us to be better. And I appreciate that so much.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you for sharing that. So I want to come back to Clark State and ask you, Lemo, from your perspective, what type of college policies could make it easier for students in credential programs like let's say the LPN program, who may also be juggling work responsibilities or in some cases parenting to other family responsibilities with their education at the college?
SPEAKER_00That is a really good question because I met a lot of my friends from Clerk State. They were in that position where they were either married, they had families, they had kids. But I think one big thing is having different programs, like having weekends, nights online. I think that gives students flexibility. I know that Clerk State already has nights and weekends, so that is great. So I think we would love to see more of those options.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a great suggestion. The flexibility of options for students. So if it is evening or weekend options or even online or hybrid as a way to continue to access the coursework they need.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that would be very helpful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Staying in the same vein, wanted to ask you, as a graduate of the LPN and the RN programs at Clark State, what do you think is the most important thing that educators, if it's career coaches or other staff that are working with students or even faculty can do as they support students to help them to succeed?
SPEAKER_00From my experience, I would say they should keep cheering the students on and believing in them. We come from different households and some people come from a stressful environment in general. And sometimes hearing somebody that you look up to say, keep going, you're doing well, it's sometimes all that we need. So I would encourage our instructors to keep doing what they are doing, cheering us on, making us aware of resources that we can use to be successful. And in my experience, I think they're doing that. They are doing great. I just want them to know we see it, we appreciate it, and they should keep it up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so really the importance of believing in students, communicating that, and then making sure that students are aware of resources that are available to support them in completing their program and passing the exam and finding employment in their field.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And they are not just reaching out to facilities that are in Springfield, Ohio. And I think that gives us more options and be like, oh, I can go to Dayton. I really like that. I like that about our instructors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. And the last question was more advice or considerations for educators and for career coaches. The next question I want to ask is more pointed to other students. So, what advice would you give to other students at Clark State and different community colleges from your own experience as a student and now as a community college graduate?
SPEAKER_00To my fellow students, I would say speak up. Do not be afraid to ask for help. Do not be afraid to be vulnerable and say, I am struggling. You have to go out and advocate for yourself and say, This is what I'm doing. Can you help me speaking up or being your own advocate? They teach us all the time to be our patients' advocates. And through that, I learned to be my own advocate and stand up for myself, whether things are going great or not. They were always there, trying all things, you know, because somebody's way of learning is not going to be my way of learning. So they were always willing to try different things to see what would work for me as an individual.
SPEAKER_03That parallel between being a healthcare professional and helping patients advocate for themselves, and then comparing that to being a student and recognizing you need to be your own advocate in that setting and be clear on what's working and what's not, and what support you may need, and being comfortable asking for that is an interesting connection.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. It's a skill and you have to recognize that it's part of the journey, and we are there for each other.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I really appreciate that. Advice. So the goal of this podcast is really to center community college student voices to shape more inclusive policies, practice, or programs, and partnerships. And I wanted to ask you if you have any other ideas on how colleges can listen to students better to develop policies and programs that put them in the best position to thrive in college and beyond.
SPEAKER_00I think having organizations, for example, we have student ambassadors, we have student synod in our nursing department, we have student representatives. I think having those would create safe space for students to speak up for themselves or give out ideas that would make their journey there much better. Or if they are not happy, again, a safe space for them to say, I think this is not working, but this might work. Can we try this? Another big thing that our college has done, we have like Tation rooms now for new mothers, and we have gender-neutral bathrooms. And I feel like those were huge strides as a woman. That's what I wanted to see. And Clark State is really showing up. They always say everyone is welcome. We want everyone to feel comfortable on our campus. And so far they have done that. And I cannot wait to see what else they're going to do. I'm just really, really excited.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's one thing to say everyone belongs here. And it's another thing to actually look at your policies and making decisions that create a more inclusive culture where people feel like they belong.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I wanted to ask you, Lemo, a big question towards the end here. I'm curious how your experience at Clark State College has been impactful in your life.
SPEAKER_00That is a great question. Thank you, Mark. My experience at Clark State has been very, very impactful in a sense that it's a community college. I have been able to connect with so many members of the Springfield community. And to me, that is so meaningful. When I first came here 10 years ago, I was just an international student. And now I am starting to feel like I am a member of this community. Because connections they last forever. I think completing something is an accomplishment of its own. So getting a degree at Clarksdate was definitely one of the biggest things I've accomplished in my life. And another thing is Cluck State gave me my RN. So that's something that I will have forever. Another big thing is friends. I made long-term friendships, and I don't think I would have done that if I went to a much, much bigger college. I will make an example with Nina. I am no longer a student at Clarkstate, but Nina still checks in with me because we made that big connection from the beginning. In addition, I would say that Cluck State is so important that we have it in this community. We come from different backgrounds, like I said, but Clarks State really meets you where you are. They have so many career opportunities. And if anyone that's listening right now is curious about going to Clex State, I would highly encourage them to give them a phone call or go to campus and just talk to them and find out what's out there for you. It's a great way to start. I would say that.
SPEAKER_03Well, there's the promotional pitch from an incredible graduate of the college. But I think it in all seriousness, what you just talked about is profound, right? That Clark State in Springfield and the surrounding area is there to meet students where they're at, provides the support and the guidance, has the programs, both shorter certificate programs and degree and transfer programs that can help students achieve their academic and career goals.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Make those connections, build that community.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for sharing that. It's a good way to wrap up here. And I think with that, I just wanted to ask you, Lemo, if there's anything else you'd like to share for this conversation.
SPEAKER_00I am very proud to say that I am a Clark State College alumni, and I will find a way to give back to that community. So somebody that is the first in their family to have the means to go back to college and change their lives because sometimes that's all we need. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I just want to say thank you to you, Lemo, for sharing so much in this conversation about your experience at Clark State College as a student in the LPN program first and then the RN program, and now continuing on towards your BSN and sharing so many observations and insights and recommendations for other students and for faculty and staff. It's been an honor to get to know you and have this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's really nice talking to you.
Interview - Dr. Jo Blondin & Dr. Barbara Gellman-Danley (President, Clark State College & President, Higher Learning Commission)
SPEAKER_03I'd like to welcome my next guest to the podcast today. First, Dr. Joe Blonden, the president of Clark State College in Springfield, Ohio. Welcome, Dr. Blonden to the All in Student Pathways Forward Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Mark. Good to be here.
SPEAKER_03And Dr. Barbara Gelman Danley, the president of the Higher Learning Commission. Welcome, Dr. Gelman Danley, as well to the podcast. Thank you so much. Well, I appreciate both of you taking time out of your busy schedules to have this conversation. And I figured it would be great to start with your organization. So, Dr. Blonden, I'd like to ask if you could share a bit more about Clark State College for any listeners that may not be familiar with the institution.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, thank you, Mark. Clark State College is located right between Dayton, Ohio and Columbus, Ohio in Springfield. We have five campus locations, about 6,000 credit students, another 1,000 students in non-credit programs. We serve a catchment area of about 1.5 million people. And we also have a lot of employers in our region, in particular, legacy manufacturers and Honda suppliers. We also have the Wright Patterson Air Force Base and the Springfield Air National Guard base located within about five miles of one of our campus locations. So they also drive our economy. And of course, a lot of the needs of those bases align with our programs. We do a lot of work in manufacturing, but also our largest enrolled program is nursing. We have one of the largest practical nursing and registered nursing programs in the state. We're very proud of those programs. And we graduate between 250 and 300 nurses a year.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's a large number.
SPEAKER_01It is.
SPEAKER_03And a little foreshadowing for when we talk about the Mohang. Right. But that's really helpful background information.
SPEAKER_01I also want to add one other thing about Clerk State. We're even more diverse than our service area. About 25% of our students are students of color. The average age at Clark State is 27. And about 80% of our students are female and part-time. And then the other important statistic for any open access institution is that about 70% of our students receive a Pell grant. So we serve a large number of low-income students, but also we are very dedicated to being as inclusive as possible and helping those students. We have a $28 million foundation, which for a school our size is, I think, impressive, but we leverage those resources to help our students through scholarships and emergency funds and in so many other ways. So that's something else we're very proud of.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Appreciate that background. And Dr. Gelman Danley, I wanted to ask you if you could also share an overview of Higher Learning Commission, how the accrediting board ensures quality assurance for colleges across the country, and how HLC supports and provides guidance to its members.
SPEAKER_02Delighted to talk about HLC. We were formed in 1895. We are a private organization, one of seven formerly known as regional accreditors, now institutional in the country. We serve over a thousand members. And our key focus is operating in the best interest of the students. We're governed by a 19-member board. That group, the higher learning commission, includes such people as Dr. Blonde and his chair and other members of our institutions as well as public members. And that's very important because we are required by federal law to have public members, but we truly enjoy them because they bring a different perspective to our work. Our main quality assurance approach is through our criteria for accreditation. And they cover so many areas that you've already mentioned, such as teaching and learning and governance and equity and diversity, and the kinds of things that go on on a campus that look at the entire institution. That makes us different from a programmatic accreditor. We have a very strong relationship with what is called the triad, the states, the federal government, and the accreditors. We don't always agree. It's a very feisty atmosphere sometimes as to how we see things differently. But in the case of all accreditors, in the 1960s, when the higher ed act was passed, we became the link to federal financial aid. And that means we have a definite obligation to the federal government. We are recognized by the federal government, reviewed ourselves every five years. And in that case, HLC is very proud of how we work with the federal government and in particular the states. We meet with them on a regular basis. Right now, we have members from 19 states. We have a few other states that are interested in bringing new members to us, but we have a scope of the entire country. And that's a new regulation that changed in 2020. So we are the quality assurance folks out there that helps students, faculty, parents, you name it, individuals who are interested. Is this a good institution? We're the ones who can help shed a light on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate that visual of the triad of the states, the federal government, and accreditors and the role that HLC plays in that crediting body. And I didn't realize you have over a thousand members. That's no small feat, the work that you do across the country in support of students, as you said.
SPEAKER_02You know, it is the biggest position I've ever held and the most reinforcing as to the value of higher education.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I bet.
SPEAKER_01And I would just want to add about Barbara's leadership of HLC that accreditation itself has not been known to be student-centered. This is something that seems very functional for institutions, while it is voluntary and at the same time for Title IV purposes, necessary and for transfer. Students haven't often been at the center of accreditation. And I think Barbara has brought that lens to an accreditor. In fact, it's best expressed by our student right to know guide for HLC, where we speak directly to students and provide them with the questions to ask, what resources they'll need to be successful as students at any institution, whether it's a private, small liberal arts college or a community college or a large regional university. So I just think I have to lift that up and give her a lot of credit for bringing a student focus to an accreditor, because with all due respect, that's the first in my 31 years in higher ed I'd seen students at the center of accreditation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, to keep the student at the center is why these institutions exist, right? Yes. Thank you, Dr. Blonen, for that additional context and the unique and dynamic approach under Dr. Gelman Danley's leadership of HLC. And speaking of students, good segue. Then naturally, Dr. Blonnen, I think you had the opportunity to listen into my interview with Clark State College, both licensed practical nurse LPN and registered nurse graduate Lemo Hang Mahadignan, and wanted to ask you what are your overall reactions to the discussion I had with Lemo, who completed her LPN program, gained her licensure, began working before then continuing on towards her ADN degree and now her BSN degree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I've known Lemo since she came to the United States from Lesotho. And she is obviously clearly a success story. And I'm, of course, proud of her. I'm not surprised that she accomplished all she has. And I was particularly heartened by her complimentary focus on the support she received from the nursing faculty as well as our support staff in student affairs. I know that she sought out and received so many services and so much support. And the other reaction I had to her interview was I wish that were every student's experience. I wish that every student left any college experience and said, Here are all the people who helped me. Here's a few of the things that you can change. I really appreciated her feedback around flexibility of curriculum, particularly during the summer. But I think that her experience, I wish it were universal. And so how can I be part of helping that? But she is also very thoughtful and intentional in her career path. And I also wish that for students. And how can we as faculty, administrators, accreditors help our students chart their path and assist in capturing their intent so we meet their goals? How can we replicate her experience times 20 million? So that's kind of what I thought. That's the task, right? But she's fantastic. And I shared Lemo's interview with campus on my blog as kind of a teaser so that people could understand what went well, right? But also how we need to make adjustments as a college. The other thing that I took from her interview is that we always have to have students at the table in every discussion. And Clark State does a great job. We always, at the beginning of our board meetings, have a student story. Lemo has been one of those stories. But I also think that hearing and embracing and responding to criticism and feedback is essential to making the college better. I had a lot of reactions, but I think that number one is what a spectacular student she is. I just want to also say that she has and did develop a great deal of social capital while she was here, which is something that so many of our students are missing. Whether it were a network internally at Clark State or in her clinical settings in nursing, she knew she needed that to move forward in her career and at different times through her credential path. And so I also think that that's something that as community colleges, we need to do a better job of making sure students are connected. I think that she was masterful in the way that she did it. I think she was guided in the way that she did it. But how can we guide those who may not be as intentional again? So I just thought that was a really neat part of her story as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And in that, she talked about how the faculty not only fostered opportunities through clinical rotations, but the connection to employers who came in and talked to the students and how tailored that was in the areas of nursing that they were interested in.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03So appreciate that. And wanted to come over to you, Dr. Gelman Danley, and from your lens as the president of an institutional accrediting organization and one that clearly centers students too, as you described. What were your reactions to the conversation with Lemo? And what are the accreditation implications as more students like Lemo pursue similar pathways and enroll in non-degree credential programs?
SPEAKER_02Lemo was fantastic, and she definitely affirmed the value of her education at Clark State. I'm going to add my background as having been a college president twice when I react to what she said. She was amazing because she used terms like, I found my passion. And she said a lot of things about the support system and a very good expression that I think could be used by many institutions if it were true, as it is at Clark State. They meet you where you go. And in another part, they meet you where you are. So what she's basically saying is the individual student matters. And that's what makes a difference. She was very and is very committed to her credential. She's the kind of person that I would love to have as a nurse. Yes. Because you could feel the heart and the passion and all of that. She mentioned how the institution helped prepare for the NCLEX exam. And I can tell you, as a former community college president, that is extremely important. You have to pass that exam. And the students are very nervous about it at all ages, let alone an international student. She was enormously positive about her instructors and she named them. And so what would go through my mind is our criterion on teaching and learning. And she's talking about everything that went so well in the classroom and all the support that is provided, and her excitement about how the faculty helped her with employment, because at many institutions we find a weakness in career counseling. And what she's saying is, my faculty, who knew me, who got to know me, who helped me become part of the community, also helped me cross that bridge to employment. She expressed quite well how difficult it was to work in the COVID environment. And I want to say, from my lens at the Higher Learning Commission, there's never been a more difficult time, COVID forward, with many issues that make college presidencies and chancellorships so, so difficult. There's always something going on on campus to distract them. But lemo represents the best day of the year for any college, and that is graduation. And the president who gets to either shake their hand, look at their face, see them as they cross the stage, give them a hug. The community colleges are all in. They know these students. And so you see a lot of embracing and whooping and hollering and cheering. I like what she said about the program flexibility and agility as far as scheduling. That's something we would notice when we were doing our accreditation reviews. And the sensitivity, such as lactation groups. You know, she started by saying I was just an international student. Now I feel like a member of the community, which reinforces what Joe and you have said. So bravo that she had the chance to express her passion in the podcast. And how could you not be excited about somebody like that? I've spent many years in community colleges across my career. Community is our middle name, and she's a wonderful example.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's so great that you pull in graduation in that moment in time. And just appreciate your lens from HLC and as a former college president, reflecting on Lemo's description. And so, Dr. Blondin want to ask you if you wanted to elaborate any more on hearing, based on Lemo's conversation, work that Clark State is doing well in quality non-degree credential programs like the LPN. And also, did you hear anything that could illuminate a new opportunity for the college in providing even better support in student success?
SPEAKER_01I did. We have several stackable credentials within the practical nursing program, then that lead up to the RN program. And then we have a lot of affinity programs that share curriculum, but also can be their own ladder to a new credential. And we're also in the process of creating as a college the first practical nursing to Bachelor of Science nursing program in the state. We have within the practical nursing program the state tested nurses assistant or STNA program, also a phlebotomy certification. And so those are off-ramps if you want to go out into the workforce, but you can come back into our practical nursing program. So you have opportunities to get numerous credentials if life were to get in the way, as it often does with our students. So we want to make sure that nobody leaves Clark State without a credential. Another example of that, too, is we have a lot of Bachelor of Science nursing graduates from other colleges who will come to us to get chemical dependency certification for their work. We have a very robust program. At Clerk State in social work and addiction and integrated treatment studies. And so that's a short-term certificate that already working nurses, whether BN, RN, BSN, can come to Clerk State and get that certification. But it's also its own off-ramp in and of itself. If somebody wants to come here and get that certification, they can go out in the workplace. They could be a peer recovery specialist. There are other ways to utilize that certification at any level. That's something that we're very proud of at Clerk State. So I heard some opportunities to do even more of that unbundling and then alignment in other programs. But our manufacturing programs are structured very similarly to this as well, whether it's at the certificate level, the associate degree, or we do have a Bachelor of Applied Science in Manufacturing Technology Management. That was our first bachelor's degree.
SPEAKER_03That's really helpful. And it feels like that really is a student-centered approach to meet students where they are and help them achieve their goals short-term and long-term.
SPEAKER_01We need to make sure that we're providing credentials of value in the marketplace. And I think HLC is taking a big leap forward in this work. And I'll throw it back to you, Mark.
SPEAKER_03And so thanks for queuing up the next question for Dr. Gillen Danley. And as Dr. Blunt has said, HLC has been very forward-thinking and has taken a more expansive approach to accreditation and considering how to include workforce education, including non-degree credential programs. Wanted to ask you how that's happening, but also why do you think that this is important in advancing equity and student success?
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a lot to talk about how it's happening, but let me go back and tell you that we had previous work done by outsiders who came in who are experts on student success who brought up something very important, which is student intent. And so when we take a look at student success, it's not unusual for people to get down to numbers, metrics, what percentage graduated, what percentage went on for certain jobs, how much are they making, et cetera. And those are great and they're quantifiable and they can be very useful if it's reliable data. But student intent matters. And what Dr. Blonde was talking about is exactly that. The fact that these students all come in with a different background and they need to have several roads on which they can travel to get what they need, not just what we think they need, because we should advise them and help them, but what they need to advance themselves personally and professionally. As far as the role of equity and student success, which was your question, equity is very important to HLC. We have a strategic plan with six tenants. It spells out evolve, and the first one is equity. In this very polarized world, we do not tell the schools what that means. We tell them you need to do things that show equity and diversity and inclusion, et cetera. But equity is important. And if you take a student who cannot afford college or has a dependency on Pell for only so many years, and then would have to get into deeper student loans, there are many paths beyond just a typical degree. And of course, if you succeed, it's kind of like walking up the steps. You get up one step, two step, three steps, and you're looking up and there's 10 more. It's easy to say, I've already made these three, let me keep going. So the idea of stackable, even looking at non-credit to credit, is critically important. But we don't like to forget student intent at the Higher Learning Commission. It's difficult for many people to understand that because they may not be able to quantify it. But we think it's important. And if you go back to some of the examples given at Clark State, I can tell, as an accreditor and who's been around higher ed a long time, that their intake process takes that into account because they know the students and the faculty know the students. We're doing a lot of work on outcomes right now, and what are valuable outcomes? What we will fight collaboratively are top-down outcomes provided by the federal government that are somehow homogenized across sectors because we have tribal colleges, community colleges, regional campuses, for-profits, large research universities, specialized institutions offering only a single degree, such as law. And under those circumstances, we really need to leave it up to the schools to help them find ways for good success measures. But equity will only come when all students are considered. And that's part of what happens in the curriculum and why we've entered into this other world of credentials, which we'll discuss later.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you. And I appreciate, as you said, that there's several roads on which uh students can travel to fulfill their career and their academic goals and stackable credentials, including non-credit to credit, build those steps for students with good advising and understanding and transparency and quality.
SPEAKER_02You know, I would say one critical thing about credentials that are short-term certificates, some of them are certification and some of them are certificates that lead toward other things, such as degrees or a combined certificate with a larger amount of certificates within it. I live that. It applies to adult learners. I have enough degrees. I don't need to get another degree. I'm not saying I can't keep learning, however. And I walk the talk. So ever since I've been at HLC, I've chosen to go the certificate route for my continued learning, even in leadership, in agile, in coaching, and other areas. And I've looked at the institutions and to reflect what Joe said, there was no reason for me to pay $60,000 for four courses at a university when I could get a certificate or certification, more importantly, in this case, that mattered.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think your point of continued learning for working professionals and executive leadership roles and the opportunity to build additional credentials is modeling for others, but it's also needed in our workplace that's constantly changing. And looking at quality and value when you consider different options. Dr. Blanken, I want to come back to you. And we've talked about this topic of quality career pathways and non-degree credential of value programs. That is the theme for the All-in Student Pathways Forward podcast this season. How do these programs fit in with Clark State College's strategic plan and priorities and in your approach to developing and enhancing programs and pathways at the college?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we have a very strong strategic plan that in my 11 years at Clark State, we've revised four times because we continue to meet our goals and our objectives through this plan collaboratively as a campus. And so our first goal in our strategic plan is to develop and strengthen quality innovative academic programs. And the focus on that is to make sure they're in flexible learning environments, that they exceed any kind of pedagogical or accreditation requirements, and that faculty are embracing and recording student outcomes and using those to make changes to their programs. So that's essential. It's our number one goal. And yes, the goals are prioritized. I would also add that our goal five, which is to promote and support collaboration with diverse communities, businesses, and industry partners, is also critical to this work in credentials because they're the ones who really help us align. They hire our graduates, they send their employees to Clark State. And so we're always making sure that we're collaborating around what is the best way to deliver the instruction and the certification that they need so that it has value to help an employee increase his or her skills and subsequent salary, or out in the marketplace, how that helps our graduates as well. I would also add, too, as part of our strategic plan and any good strategic plan, we focus on strategic trends and challenges. And certainly we've listed within that several that touch on our conversation today credential landscape and the delivery of higher education, workforce preparation, and program mix development and alignment, along with focusing on student needs, including those wraparound services that Lemo talked about, whether it's basic needs such as transportation, childcare, food, clothing, housing, or mental health. And so all those challenges and trends are part of our strategic plan as well. And we live it every day.
SPEAKER_03It sounds like quality career pathways and non-degree credentials are really immersed in the strategic plan of the institution. And I was thinking about the goals one and five you talked about. It feels like there's connections between those two, right? If you're looking at quality academic programs and making sure they are meeting the needs of employers and you're collaborating with those employers to understand what the skills and competencies are, to ensure the programs are providing those skills, then leading to employment and then the holistic supports, too. I would imagine also tie back to collaboration with potentially community-based organizations or social service agencies that can offer complementary services to what the college can provide for students.
SPEAKER_01Yes, definitely. And it's all tied together. And I think it took a pandemic for a lot of organizations and institutions, not just higher ed, to realize that everything is integrated and connected, or at least it should be. And there should be a systems approach to everything that we do that just brings so much value.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. So want to move over to you, Dr. Gelman Danley. I know that HLC published two papers that consider the role of non-degree credentials as part of current trends in higher education in the workforce. The first unprecedented opportunity, extraordinary risk, HLC in the changing credential landscape, and the second, institutional accreditation at a crossroads, drivers for change. Both of these papers explore the perspective of key stakeholders related to quality credential programs, learners, employers, institutions, and accreditors, and emphasize the importance of quality assurance and data. Based on this research, could you share more about the direction HLC is taking related to these quality non-degree credentials and how the organization plans to support and guide your members?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, thank you for reading the papers and gleaning the most important issues from them, including those that Joe wrote herself. So she was very much part of this opportunity. I would like to point out papers that came prior to this, one in particular, by a group called the Partners for Transformation. That was the first time we reached out in 2016 to an extensive group of very well-known national leaders. And those national leaders came in and we gave them a carte blanche. Tell us about the future of accreditation. What do you think HLC should be considering? The recommendations that came out of the Partners for Transformation were very innovative. And one of them did focus on the future of credentials. Therefore, a couple of years later, we decided to move into the credential landscape and write those papers. And all of these projects were supported and we're very grateful by the Lumina Foundation, which is external validation as well as support. The papers suggested that HLC unquestionably should enter this marketplace, without a doubt. So we form what we call the HLC's Credential Lab. And the Credential Lab is an innovation hub that will support institutions and learners in navigating this very complex environment. It's a growing ecosystem with over a million credentials in there. So we have two parts of the project. One part of the project is to help our institutions strengthen or build what they do in this area by offering a service for that and bringing in experts to help them. The other part is to work with the external providers on what we would call a stamp of approval, a better business bureau of consumer protection, something like that kind of rating, but not tied to accreditation. We will also be setting up a credential innovation hub, and we're working with a group of people for that. So it's a very complex and broad project. And I will tell you, I know it's going to work because not only have we invested, but externally we have received a total of $750,000 from two foundations toward this project, the Lumina Foundation initially and $500,000 from the ECMC Foundation. And people are hungry for this, very hungry for this. How can you tell us from all these credentials what's good? With the stresses on higher education, we don't want this to be an act of desperation for institutions that might be suffering in some areas. We want it to be a real plus up value added, as I know our institutions do. The interest is so substantial.
SPEAKER_03It's inspiring to hear all the work that HLC is doing in this area in support of your members. Appreciate you sharing all of that. So, Dr. Blondin, I know that you wear multiple hats at the national level. So not only do you serve as the president of Clark State College, but as Dr. Gelman Danley had pointed out, you're the chair of the HLC Board of Trustees, as well as serving on the U.S. Department of Education Institutional Quality and Program Integrity Committee as the primary negotiator on behalf of public two-year institutions of higher ed. So wearing these various hats, I wanted to ask what more you'd like to add about both the opportunities and the potential concerns as non-degree credential options become more widespread.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So Barbara really talked extensively about the credential lab. And I think there is so much opportunity there, and I'm excited to be a part of that. But from the negotiated rulemaking perspective, I would say that there are a lot of opportunities that aren't being seen right now in terms of what it means to really be a department of education that is future focused, that is focused on the reality of technology. And I do think that there needs to be more discussion in the future about interrogating the credit hour and its tyranny over higher education, including the divide between credit and non-credit, that is extremely deficit-based for our students. Our students are students, whether they're here for a welding class or they're here taking transfer classes to Ohio State. They're students. And so I feel pretty strongly that workforce Pell is something that we should all be championing because that's the future of work. If we're really going to address this massive skills gap, in addition to a tidal wave of retirements that are happening at places like Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in all kinds of STEM fields, we have to be more flexible in the way we approach things. So I would say during this negotiated rulemaking process, I've been a little bit shocked at how regressive the approach to financial aid, distance education around clock hours, accreditation, and a lack of flexibility around some of the work that needs to happen by mission-based sectors. So for example, is it fair to create bright lines in higher education for outcomes for Purdue University, my alma mater, and at the same time hold Clark State College with 80% of our students part-time to the same graduation numbers? It makes no sense. And it goes back to what Barbara was saying. How do we capture student intent? Many of my students come to Clark State to take one class, and they're considered failures by iPads. They're not failures. They wanted a biology class because it's cheaper at Clark State than it is at a four-year private institution. So let's be really clear about the mission of our institutions. And by that I mean externally. I want to be very, very clear about the fact that institutionally, community colleges know exactly who they're serving and exactly how we're trying to exceed outcomes for our students. It isn't always easy, but we're doing everything we can to overcome these barriers. But I have really been surprised, and to be honest with you, a little bit disheartened and maybe even embarrassed by the fact that there are some people out there who are just biased against a group of students who may not have the same start in life that others have. Therefore, that equates to a lack of quality. And that's simply not the case. But I also will say this one of the most important, I think, experiences that I've had is being a classroom instructor. I'm an English faculty member and at a graduate program, I teach strategic planning for community college leadership. And I want to say that being on a campus and hearing the stories, the aggregate stories as well, not just the one-offs, not just the one or two disgruntled students. I'm talking about the experience of the great number of students who graduate, go out into the workforce, provide for their families, and do well. But of course, there will always be students who are dissatisfied, students who I failed to support. And that is something that we need to change. But it is not the rule, it is the exception. And to make that the rule in negotiations makes for bad rulemaking.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and doesn't, as you said, get it understanding student intent and the different student populations that community colleges serve, and using the same criteria for a part-time student who may be taking one class or gaining a short-term certificate versus a four-year degree for a university.
SPEAKER_01I would also add this too. There are a number of people who are in negotiated rulemaking and representing the private four years, public four years, as well as the for-profit institutions who understand what I'm talking about because they're practitioners. And I think being a practitioner gives us so much credibility, but it also gives us the opportunity to share that expertise. I just hope it gets listened to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, thank you for your leadership at the national level on this really important topic and these negotiations and discussions. And know there's a lot of work ahead that needs to happen. So I had a question for both of you. Either of you can jump in here, Dr. Galman Danley or Dr. Blonden. If there are college leaders listening in who are looking to expand quality non-degree credential programs, but facing concerns as it relates to quality assurance or even accreditation implications, what advice or guidance would you offer to them?
SPEAKER_02I'll take that question. I think institutions sometimes are adverse to change management. In our world of higher education, we know our goal is to change students' lives, but changing ourselves is just a little more difficult. I don't think it hurts, and it is actually part of our grant with ECMC to do some change management training to help folks really understand what change management is. But I can think of a time a president came in to me and he was having difficulty with his institution financially, facing a lot of the things small private universities face these days. And he had seven ideas, Mark. And he said, Here are my seven ideas and tell me which one is best. And I said, Well, I'm going to take off my HLC hat and put on my former president hat. Pick one. And I think that's the issue for a lot of institutions. They get in their own way. And they fear accreditation, for example. They don't need to because we did a survey of our members and we got a 97%, 97% satisfaction rate of our liaisons and how they work with our institutions. So as people are planning to change and do different things, enter the non-credit, credit, marketplace, et cetera, we find the best thing they can do is talk to us throughout the process, not at the end of an idea, and say, tell us now it'll work. And so I think institutions need to be ready to adapt to change, but not change for change's sake. We learned this as a HLC group and the board from innovation scientists that incremental change is sometimes better than transformational change. Take a look at what you can wrap your arms around and go from there. So we won't get in the way. There are a lot of accusations that accreditation gets in the way. I will say I think some of the federal rules and guidance. Lines and legislation, they are anchors on people's feet, including the credit hour and some other things. But HLC wants to work directly with institutions that are navigating these difficult waters. We encourage people to attend our annual conference in mid-April. We encourage them to come every year to call us. I talk to presidents a lot, just brainstorming. So I think it's not our creditors that stand in the way. It's the natural fear, the challenges that are being faced, such as the kinds of trends that we all talk about, and to have the courage to do what's right on behalf of the students.
SPEAKER_03That means so much. That is powerful to hear from your role, Dr. Gellman Danley. And I'll just say from working at colleges in this area of career pathways for years, I heard folks in certain roles speak to, well, accreditation won't let us. And it was sort of put up with we can't do this because accreditation won't X, Y, and Z. And I know there are clear parameters and what you can and can't do. And at times it felt like, is this really about accreditation or is it about change? And I think you just illustrated that. And again, to hear that from you as the president of HLC and the way that the organization is supporting and guiding colleges through change management is incredible.
SPEAKER_01And I would add, too, as a president, my advice to community college presidents is to use accreditation to innovate. Nobody put out a statement or rule. It's some kind of weird received rumor that accreditation stifles innovation. And I think that having a good relationship with your accreditor, knowing who your liaison is, knowing who's doing the work on your campus, higher learning commission has been part of my professional development in my 31-year career in higher education. And so I would argue that knowing more about accreditation and having those relationships will enhance your college and its outcomes.
SPEAKER_03Well stated. Appreciate both of your thoughtful responses on this question and guidance. So going to shift a little bit and want to stay with you, Dr. Blonden. Coming back to the podcast, the All in Student Pathways Forward podcast was created as an innovative approach to elevate community college student voices like Lemo and other new majority learners to shape inclusive policies, practice, and partnerships. What are some innovative ways that Clark State is listening to students or prospective students to create more accessible programs and equitable policies leading to student success?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so back in 2017-18, we set as part of our strategic planning goal a focus on inclusivity and diversity. And as part of that goal, we started pursuing funding for trauma-informed approaches to our work, to admissions, human resources, financial aid, every aspect of a college. How could we really infuse this inclusive approach into the language, policies, and operations of the college? Creating a culture of care is our third goal in our strategic plan. And also using a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging lens when looking at all of our policies, whether it's our admissions policy for nursing programs or it's a board policy or the faculty handbook. How do we make sure that our college is really living up to the access mission that we proclaim that we follow and that we embrace? And I would also want to shout out to Achieving the Dream because it's not fair for me to say all these ideas were mine. We're a part of the ATD network.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, perfect timing coming right back from the Dream Conference and getting a chance to hear from Dream scholars and fantastic sessions related to our conversation. So just staying on this topic of student voice, Dr. Gilman Danley wanted to ask you how does student voice fit in with the work of an institution, accrediting organization?
SPEAKER_02It matters a lot. In fact, in our mission statement, all accreditors say we are accrediting institutions. Our mission statement says in the service of students and member institutions. So it's very important to note that we put the names of students first. Each member of the triad works on this, all accreditors, federal government and the states. We publish online what the resources are available to students from the federal government on our website. We did the student guide, as was previously mentioned, and that was built on the fact that at a long ago negotiator rulemaking, I sat and listened to students talking about everything that went wrong. We also have student surveys as part of any accreditation visit. So students get a chance to speak out and say what's working and not working on their campuses. Students matter. I will go back to a statement I made decades ago when my staff asked me a question about some work they should do. And I said, is it in the best interests of the students? Use it ever since.
SPEAKER_03And should be every time there's a decision, right? Really appreciate your perspective there. And I'm gonna wrap up here, but wanted to ask either of you if there's anything else that you would like to share that we didn't cover in this conversation already.
SPEAKER_01Just to follow along with what Barbara said, I would also testify to the fact that our board of trustees at the Higher Learning Commission speaks about students constantly at every meeting. Every time we consider any institutional action, a sanction or probation or something of that nature. We talk about the students. We're not just looking at an institution coldly and surgically. We're looking at an institution that serves students. And we want to make sure that they're always kept at the forefront of what we're doing. And I think the credential lab is just a great example of that. But I would challenge your listeners to get involved in your accreditation processes because then you're in charge versus you feeling that you're at the mercy of whatever these dictates are. I know in HLC that it is a student-centered organization, and I'm really proud to be on the board.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. That's a great way to pull it all together there.
SPEAKER_02I think Joe summed it up extremely well. And I just want to thank you for the opportunity to participate in the podcast.
SPEAKER_01I'm really excited that I got to participate and also that you got to hear Lemo's story because she really is incredible. And I am so proud of her. And for her to have a voice on a national stage, I know that they're gonna hear about it too in Lesotho. So it's internet.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was an honor to get the chance to speak with her and the same honor and pleasure to have this conversation with Dr. London and Dr. Gelman Danley. I learned a lot from our discussion and appreciate the connection back to Lemo's interview and just your leadership both for HLC and for Clark State overall and supporting student success and also as we focus on quality non-degree credential programs for the podcast this season. So thank you both for taking time out of your busy schedules and look forward to sharing this episode out soon.
SPEAKER_01That sounds great.
SPEAKER_03We'll be back next month and returning to Oregon to feature an incredible career pathways program graduate from Lane Community College in Eugene. This is the host again, Mark Goldberg, and I wanted to say thank you for listening in and for being all in on student success.