All In: Student Pathways Forward
This podcast focuses on elevating community college student voices to shape inclusive higher education and workforce development policies, practice and partnerships that create economic mobility.
All In: Student Pathways Forward
Chemeketa Community College Prison Education past student Cameron Hayes, Chemeketa Community College President Dr. Jessica Howard and Dr. Lucretia Murphy, Vice President, Center for Justice and Economic Advancement, Jobs for the Future
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode host Marc Goldberg interviews Chemeketa Community College Prison Education and Community Reentry past student Cameron Hayes, Chemeketa Community College president Dr. Jessica Howard, and Dr. Lucretia Murphy, Vice President for the Center for Justice & Economic Advancement at Jobs for the Future.
Cameron describes his experience accessing community college coursework through the Prison Education program at Chemeketa Community College after enrolling in a similar program at Blue Mountain Community Colleges where he prepared for and passed his GED. He elaborates on the transformative impact of postsecondary education opportunities behind the walls for him and many other adults in custody.
Dr. Howard reflects on Cameron’s interview and highlights the college’s work focused on serving adult returning learners through various academic pathways including important starting and access points via adult education, prison education and workforce training programs.
Dr. Murphy shares insights on the various ways the Center for Justice & Economic Advancement promotes opportunities towards fair chance employment for justice-impacted individuals. She elaborates on the Fair Chance to Advance State Action Network, which Oregon was one of four states selected to be in the inaugural cohort.
The All In: Student Pathways Forward podcast is a part of Oregon’s participation in the National Skills Coalition SkillSPAN network.
Podcast Introduction
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the All In Student Pathways Board podcast focused on elevating community college student voices, along with those of college executives, policymakers, and higher education advocates, the Health State Student Center policies, programs, and partnerships. This is the host Mark Goldberg, and it's an honor to speak with students and graduates who share their community college experiences, offer practical solutions to make college more accessible, and hear from college students and policymakers listening in and reacting to the students' recommendations that build on their solutions and call to action. Season four of the podcast features students who began their college journeys enrolling in adult education courses, doctor tell them to pursue further education and career pathways at their respective college and beyond. This episode includes interviews with Cameron Hayes, a path student from Shamecada Community College's Prison Education Program, Dr. Jessica Howard, the president of Shamecada Community College, and Dr. Laquita Murphy, the Vice President of the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement at JFF. Cameron talks about accessing community college education, including DEV preparation courses through the Prison Education Programs at Commecada and Blue Mountain Community Colleges in Oregon, and describes the transformative nature of post-secondary education beyond the walls for adults in custody. Dr. Howard reflects on Cameron's interview and highlights the college's work focused on serving adult returning learners across the college's district through adult education, prison education programs, and well beyond. Dr. Murphy shares insights on how the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement promotes pathways to fair chance employment for justice-impacted individuals, including through the Fair Chance to Advance State Action Network. Thanks for listening in.
Interview with Cameron Hayes
SPEAKER_03I'd like to welcome my featured guest to the podcast today, Cameron Hayes, who is a past student at Shamecita Community College and Blue Mountain Community College. Welcome, Cameron, to the All-in Student Pathways Forward Podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate you giving your time and sharing your community college story. And I know you have a really interesting and unique one, so I wanted to start by asking you if you could share more about your background and how community colleges played a role in your career path. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I grew up in a criminally active family. Drugs and abuse was just really prevalent in my household. Ended up doing drugs with my mom from a very young age. At 17, started intravenously using heroin. And at 19, committed a string of robberies, which landed me in prison for 12 years on a 12-year sentence. I dropped out of high school, freshman year, so I did not have a high school degree or GED or anything. I just, you know, at 15 I stopped going to school. And so when I landed in prison, I was really initially motivated to get an education. I had all these dreams about, you know, what I was going to do with my time, learn languages and degrees and instruments and all this stuff, right? And quickly I got distracted by the many negative things in there and ended up getting involved with gangs and just a lot of negative stuff and kept getting in trouble. Well, in the prison I was at at the time, they won't let you be involved in education unless you have a certain amount of clear conduct. So it took me a few years to get that clear conduct, but then eventually got to go to Blue Mountain Community College to get my GED. Got that there out in Eastern Oregon. And that was a huge deal for me because having dropped out of school at 15, you know, I love to read, I love to do all these things, but I wasn't really confident in my intelligence all that much, I guess. And then when I got my GED, I'd finished it in about a month and got honors and was just really proud, and it was pretty impactful for me and my family, you know, who had seen me mess up for the last couple of years to see, you know, a little progress meant a lot to them. Fast forward a lot, um, continued getting in trouble, caught two more years in prison, continued gang involvement, finally ended up in long-term solitary confinement for the second time. And in there, I realized that I had become someone I did not want to be. And that was a hard realization, but it was also very motivating. And when I got out of solitary confinement, I just started doing things differently and eventually got the clear conduct to then be part of Shemecada Community College and was in that program until I paroled.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for being open about how you found your way to Blue Mountain through the Corrections Education program at the college, and then over to Shemecada. And I know you just touched on the important milestone of a high school equivalency of getting your GED. But I did want to ask you, what was the most meaningful milestone or momentum point throughout your journey taking community college coursework at either Blue Mountain or Shimecada?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a hard one because there was a lot of really important moments, whether it be challenges, getting into math classes, that's always hard after decades of not doing math. So pushing myself there. There was a lot of moments where it challenged me in my interpersonal skills, right? Being in that environment and coming out through that better was a proud moment for me. But I think honestly, when I was accepted into Shemechada and I was officially a college student, that was a huge moment for me. Because, like I said, ever since I had first come to prison, I imagined going to college and doing these things, and now finally that was happening. This is after I started changing my life, and so then it was like validation that I was on the right path, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also wanted to ask you what the biggest challenge was for you in pursuing post-secondary education through these community college programs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So one of the requirements in prison is to maintain clear conduct, and that is not as easy as it sounds, right? Something as simple as giving food to someone can be considered against the rules and theoretically be enough to kick you out of college. In practice, that rarely ever happens, but the reality is that there are so many rules, but you know, they have their reasons of why they have it, of course. Making sure that I had that clear conduct to continue is stressful a lot of the time, right? Like I have so much invested in this, and I have to navigate this environment that is not congruent to uh obeying all these rules, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I could see that, and how, as you've described, how important that opportunity and pathway was for you, and not wanting to lose that within that more constrained environment with conduct expectations. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you if there was someone through Chemecita Community College or Blue Mountain who helped you to navigate those college systems and any difficulties in your studies, and if so, how were they most helpful?
SPEAKER_02Honestly, there's a lot of people. One person, Katie Dwyer, was originally part of the University of Oregon prison education program, and that's when I came to meet her initially, and she helped a lot. She was always there, you know, even though she worked at U of O, if there was some problem with Shemecada getting credits transferred or anything, she was always more than willing to step up and help. And the actual work she was doing was, of course, meaningful. But I think more than anything, what Katie did was treat us like people, right? Like people worthy of helping. That was impactful. Because also, there's been a couple of professors, which I'll mention that have been awesome, but we only get to know them for uh a term, right? Whereas the more administrative staff we get to know over long periods of time. And now Katie is at Shmechada running the program there and doing amazing and helping people. But overall, like she may be the most influential person. And at the end of the day, it's because of how she treated us rather than what specifically she was doing, right? And then there was just other professors had a religious studies professor that just was awesome, right? Just really enjoyed being in the classroom and having these discussions that all of a sudden I realized, like, wow, I actually know this stuff, right? Being able to talk to someone who's teaching it and have an intellectual conversation was really rewarding. I can't think of a single professor involved in that program that goes inside that didn't impact someone's life. I've heard it's very meaningful for them, but also very meaningful for us, the whole program.
SPEAKER_03That's really great to hear and can tell just listening to you, Cameron. The positive experience with faculty members and then Katie and her role, both U of O and Shameca. Thank you for sharing that. And I wanted to come back to your first chapter at Blue Mountain. And this season's podcast is featuring students who started their educational pathway taking adult education courses, as you did. And so I wanted to ask you if you could talk a little bit more about this chapter for you and how it helped shape your own path forward.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, the time that I had that clear conduct was short, right? And on both ends was a bunch of me being a jerk, right? And so looking back, I feel like it gave me, you know, kind of an oasis at that time because the environment's just different. It kind of validated the possibilities and the advantages of minding your P's and Q's, right? Like I said, I dropped out freshman year, never really pursued academic things formally, and to be able to get in there and just chug on through and be successful was super impactful. I think the biggest hurdle was just knowing that I could do it.
SPEAKER_03Right? Yeah, having that confidence. Right. That's pretty amazing. Having not been in a formal educational setting in some time and then passing your GED and can see how that can be, in many cases, a springboard into further education. Right. Well, thanks for going back to that chapter. And I wanted to fast forward to this period of time and wanted to ask you if you could share more about where you're at now in your studies and the work that you do with the restorative justice community.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I was released in August of 2024, and in September of 2024, I was enrolled for fall term at the U of O. And then within a year, I got all the credits I needed to get my bachelor's, and summer of 25 graduated with my bachelor's, and then fall of 25 started my master's program at the U of O. It is a master's of nonprofit management. I am on the advanced track or speedy track, whatever you want to call it, and I'm set to graduate this summer, summer of 26, and then fall of 26, I start uh MBA program at Willamette University. Wow, that's amazing! Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Since being out, I have just found education to continue to be a source of self-efficacy. I love learning, I love going to school and being in class, and so just being part of the whole academic community has meant a lot to me, and so I look forward to continuing it. I might take a break after the second master's, but I have continued to move along. And then as far as work inside restorative justice, which to put it into one sentence, a approach to harm that brings healing, right? So we see the traditional criminal justice system as adversarial rather than healing, and so we look for ways to bring healing to all parties, which includes the victim, the offender, and the community, right? So that philosophy, that community that was in the prison, that believed in that and spread that message was really impactful for me in my personal transformation and really became the home where I felt safe and could be vulnerable and had the chance to grow while incarcerated. And then when I got out, I immediately started working with restorative justice organizations out here. I started working for an organization called Conflict Artistry, and we did restorative justice processes using community referrals. So we specifically populations that didn't feel comfortable calling the police, those involved in street culture, immigrant communities, those in addiction, right? And so we spread the message that we were always an option and had some cool successes. And then in January of 25, I became the director of Regroup. We are a re-entry support network, and our foundation is on three pillars. Number one is day one support. So when folks get out of prison, they have a lot of needs, whether it's rides the day they get out, it's guidance on how to get all their documentation, license, all that kind of stuff, monetary support, housing support. And so we help provide those. Then our second pillar is community support. We have monthly meetings with folks who are formerly incarcerated and talk about those challenges and just again try to give folks a place to be vulnerable and to talk about the things that are going on in their lives. And then our third pillar is leadership development. What we do is we help with education, training, soft skills, hard skills, whether it be resources and getting into college, whether it's trainings that will help them gain certifications. If you are motivated to be successful, then we are motivated to help you. And that is with one caveat is that we expect that if you are going to be a leader, you're going to be a leader for healing, right? You're going to be a leader that makes amends for the harms that you have committed and work to heal the community.
SPEAKER_03That's tremendous to hear both your educational journey, also the work that you do professionally to support other individuals who've been justice impacted in the broader community. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that, Cameron. Yeah, absolutely. So, from what I understand, students who were in corrections education programs are interfacing across multiple systems, including the justice system, higher education, potentially social services, and even the workforce system. And so I wanted to ask you, what do you think would make it easier for students to navigate through these complex systems to progress in achieving their educational and career goals?
SPEAKER_02So I've talked about the clear conduct that's needed, right? And it's 18 months clear conduct. I believe six to be part of GED, 18 months to be part of college. And so that may not seem like food to someone can potentially be against the rules. And so it's not as easy as it sounds. But one of my mentors has said that the two things that helped change his life were love and education, right? I think probably if you're listening to this podcast, you already recognize the power of education in being a transformative force. So what I've always said is that having this clear conduct aspect is like a doctor telling someone they've got to be better before they can be treated, right? Like education has the potential to transform lives and to rehabilitate. I have seen, just like I said, being part of the college program made me very leery of how I was navigating the prison, right? Which is stressful, but also gives you a new set of skills of being conscious of how you're navigating the world around you, right? And running other classes in prison treatment groups and stuff like that. I know that folks will avoid trouble because they know they have class on Tuesday night, right? And they want to at least complete the term or get this degree or this cycle of classes, right? That is a factor in staying out of trouble. So just that fact alone, I know for a fact is transformative in keeping folks out of trouble. But just opening up the education to more people, I know that puts a lot of logistical problems there, but I don't think those outweigh the potential that bringing education to more people has, you know.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think in a similar note, I've heard at times that higher education leaders and even policy makers may not be as familiar with corrections education programs, since many of these programs don't take place on a traditional college campus. And so I wanted to ask you, Cameron, what advice would you give to these leaders so they better understood the realities and could better meet the needs of justice-impacted students while in custody and beyond?
SPEAKER_02So the fact is that there's many bottlenecks and many regulations that restrict how powerful these programs can be. And so if we all recognize, including DOC, that these programs have such power and such ability to change lives, then we need to expand it, right? So instead of patting ourselves on the back, let's look at these bottlenecks and let's see how we can do better.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate your honest take and read on that question. The next question I have is it sounds like you do this probably on a daily basis in your work in restorative justice. And still, I wanted to ask you what advice would you give to other justice-impacted students from say Chemecita Community College or other community college programs based on your own experience?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So one of the pieces of advice that people are often given when they get out is take it slow. And I tell people do not take it slow, see how much you can handle, right? Because when we get out, we are so motivated and we just have all this energy, like we've been, you know, held back for so long and now we're just ready to run. And so I tell guys, like, enroll in college, like right away, because the longer the gap is between the day you get out and the day you start college, the less likely it is, right? Because life just gets in the way. But if you can build a routine right away where college is part of it, where going to class, finding a program that's suitable, whether it's night classes or whatever, the faster you can do that, the more you use that momentum and the more likely you are to be successful. Now, colleges are great at working with students for the most part, right? And so if they need to take a step back, they can always do that. But yeah, I tell them whatever you want, start working on it now because you have all this energy, take advantage of it, right?
SPEAKER_03I would imagine, too, as someone is going through that transition, enrolling in college gives a focus towards a future path. Right. So the emphasis of this podcast is to find different ways to amplify student voices. So, Cameron, how do you think colleges can listen to students better, particularly justice-impacted students, to develop policies, programs, and partnerships that put the students in the best position to thrive in college and beyond? Yeah, that's a hard one.
SPEAKER_02So, in everything that goes on in the world, there is uh system and agency, right? Every decision someone makes is somewhere on this spectrum of system and agency. And in prison, we get so used to the system making all our decisions, right? That we get what's called learned helplessness. And that is basically low self-efficacy, right? Like we just don't know what we're capable of, we don't know how to make decisions because we didn't have to for how long, right? And so it's a hard balance that I have had to do in my own work in forcing folks to like pull their own weight and acknowledging that they're having a hard time, right? Well, unfortunately, what I've seen happen sometimes is that. This acknowledgement that they are working at a deficit because of their incarceration, they won't be challenged enough. And then that fails to build their self-efficacy, right? And so it's a hard line to draw, right? But what I would say is treat returning citizens like citizens. If you had any other student who had a hard time at it, you would do what you could for them, right? But you're not going to do everything for them. I think sometimes the help that returning citizens get can be given in a paternalistic way. And I think that is what we need to avoid. Just recognize that these are capable people who need some help remembering that.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate your perspective on that. And it seems like, too, the more there's space for justice-impacted individuals to add their voice and influence policies, programs. I mean, it's sort of the opposite of the paternalistic approach, right? It's inviting individuals to share their lived experience, their thoughts, their insights, which can build confidence and also demonstrate that there's value for them and for whatever systems they're navigating to really understand that and adapt to better meet the needs. Right. Absolutely. Well, thank you for answering that question. And I wanted to zoom out a little bit back to your overall experience as a student at Shemecada and Blue Mountain and ask you how was this experience impactful in your life?
SPEAKER_02Man, my uh experience at Shimechada really set the foundation for a central theme of my life, right? Education has become incredibly important to me, and Shemecada's the one who gave me my opportunity and introduction into higher education. It's given me purpose, it's given me really too much to articulate here. I'm incredibly grateful for the program at Shemecada and the opportunities they gave me. It's hard to put into words, honestly. Wow.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for reflecting on that and overall for being so open in telling your story and your insights and also your recommendations for higher education leaders, policymakers, for other students who may be justice impacted, and accelerate the opportunities for individuals to continue to pursue education and build skills towards a better future. Absolutely. I did want to ask if there's anything else you'd like to share about your community college experience for this conversation.
SPEAKER_02No, I don't think so. Just maybe to any of my professors who are out there listening, just want to send gratitude your way and say thank you once again.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Well, I'd like to say thank you again to you, Cameron, for carving out the time in a very busy academic and work schedule to record this conversation, to really hear about the transformative impact of education. It's really powerful. Thank you.
Interview with Dr. Jessica Howard
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Mark. It's great to be back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was gonna say welcome back. When we launched the podcast uh a few years ago, you were a guest in one of the first episodes with a student from Chemecata.
SPEAKER_01I know, it was a great thrill then and now.
SPEAKER_03Well, I appreciate you taking the time. And even though you've been on before, I would love to still ask you if you could share a bit more about Chemecita Community College for any listeners who aren't familiar with it.
SPEAKER_01Happy to, Mark. So Chemeceda is Oregon's second largest community college in terms of number of students. We are located in the three counties just south of the Portland Metro region. It's a 2,600 square mile district, and it includes Salem, which is the state capital. We have seven different locations, two comprehensive campuses and five centers. And we've got a really comprehensive mission, like so many community colleges, from offering dual credit and early college options for high school students through the usual general education, career and technical education, and workforce arms of the college. And then we also are very privileged to be in three of our state prisons located here in the Salem area. That is our prison education program.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate that background and two full campuses and five centers across three counties. It is a large district, and I know Shemecada for years has such a fantastic reputation in terms of student success, connections to the community, and dynamic programs from, as you described, CTE, general education dual credit, and prison education programs. So, on a related note, I wanted to talk about the enrollment shifts that many colleges have had in the last few years, focusing more on adult returning students who could benefit from quality post-secondary credentials, either to upskill or reskill and solidify pathways to careers with economic mobility. And since you talked about Shamecada Community College having strong prison education programs, I wanted to ask you if you could talk about the value of prison education at community colleges, particularly at your institution, Shemecita, and how it strengthens institutional priorities such as access, credential attainment, and workforce pathways.
SPEAKER_01Well, as you know, Mark, the community college mission is a profound one, and it's all about providing every individual who is interested in coming the ability to access opportunities that, of course, are made available through more education. And so when you think about communities that are more vulnerable and have more difficulty accessing higher education, it seems even more important to ensure that pathways out of poverty are real and possible for students who need them the most. I'm going down this road because I believe justice-impacted individuals are one of those population groups that has historically had limited access to higher education pathways. And they are just as important to us as any other. And providing these educational opportunities for those folks within the prison system is core to the mission of community colleges and certainly to Chemeceda. There's another layer when you start talking about prison education because the return on investment is so tremendous. The recidivism rate is so affected by folks who do have the opportunity to have education. And when we do education in the prisons, like many of our sister colleges, we're talking about education to get people a GED so they have a high school equivalency, which of course is extraordinarily important once one transitions out and then is looking for a job. Without that, your options are so unbelievably limited. But more than that, we also have a college inside program. That's what we call it. And this allows adults in custody who are interested and able to pursue lower division coursework through Chemecita Community College. And that can lead, of course, to higher level coursework and some of the amazing success stories about students who continue on. And then their ability to, of course, give back is much greater with this sort of educational investment.
SPEAKER_03That's great. From my understanding, Chemecita's prison education program also includes some CTE?
SPEAKER_01We do. We have a CTE program. It's an auto technician program that leads to an industry-recognized certificate. And that is not an easy program inside a state penitentiary. You know, think about all the logistical elements of all the parts and what it means to create a working lab for that. And I think it's been the answer for many individuals who go through that program. And then once they are on the outside, they have a viable wage and they're able to contribute to society and do all the things that we want them to do.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. In an occupation and industry that has had a severe shortage of technicians, and I totally get what you're saying. Think about automotive technology programs and the level of equipment and tools and space that's required.
SPEAKER_01And cars.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And also knowing that that occupation has so many meaningful and necessary industry-recognized credentials, which essentially are the ticket to these jobs.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Well, and there's also this issue of transportability with credits, because in many cases, the correctional institution where the adult in custody is serving his sentence for us, these are all male individuals, is not necessarily the community that they come from and that they'll be released back to. So it's not just something you learn that has some local relevance. It needs to be able to be built upon. It needs to have that transcripted meaning. And that's what we provide as post-secondary accredited institution.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Portability, transferability. I appreciate that additional point and the value of it coming from an accredited post-secondary institution. Right. On a related note, as you talked about the adult education component of prison education. One of the many strengths of community colleges across the country are those multiple entry and exit points with pathways to quality post-secondary credentials. And some of those entry points may be through adult education programs, which can be offered on campus as they are in Oregon, also out in the community, but as well in prison facilities, as you talked about Shemecada offering. So, how do you see adult education programs also supporting the mission of community colleges and broader economic prosperity in the college's district?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a great question. There are over 53,000 residents, according to the American Community Survey data, in Marion Polk and the M Hill Counties, and that's essentially our district who are 18 or older who lack a high school equivalency. So that is almost 13% of the adult population today in 2026. This is not an insignificant number of folks, and we can't get trapped into this idea of just thinking about the students who have yet to come to us from high school. In many cases, we're talking about working adults all around us. I think it has always been understood that having a high school credential is foundational to then build upon. And that understanding, I think, is going to be even clearer as we move through a rapidly changing world with automation and artificial intelligence doing a lot more than we can even conceive of at this time. And so it will be even more important for individuals who would like to grow and have prosperous lives to have higher and higher and higher levels of education. And when I say that, you may envision the university setting. It certainly could include that, but I think it also means relevant workforce skills and keeping up with the technology. I think there are opportunities for us to blend some of the curriculum that is required to get students to the GED with workforce pathways. And that's something that we are involved in, and some of our partners are as well, and that's exciting work. But you can't move on without those foundational skills. Back to my point about what is the future going to hold and what is it going to require of individuals to be competitive in it. The Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce indicated in a recent study that 72% of jobs by 2031 will require some post-secondary education or training. So without the high school equivalency, getting a job in today's economy and certainly the future economy is going to be a real challenge. And that's not something that's fixable with machines. You're going to need people to connect with people. You're going to need curriculum that works. You have to find ways to accelerate, find ways to contextualize. And that is one of the sweet spots for community colleges.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, those numbers are significant. 50,000 plus adults in the colleges district that could build that talent pool if they had the opportunity to work on their foundational skills. I think it's a workforce solution.
SPEAKER_01We have to double down on what it means to create those pathways for those individuals so that they can have a chance to build and then grow and be competitive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Thanks for answering that question and talking about adult education and its importance. And speaking of both prison education and adult education, as well as transfer pathways, I wanted to ask you what your overall reactions were to the discussion I had with Cameron Hayes, a justice-impacted student who took classes through Shemecita's prison education program that propelled him towards further education and obtaining a bachelor's degree at University of Oregon and now working towards two master's degrees while doing restorative justice work in the community. What did you hear, Dr. Howard, that highlighted work that Shemecita is doing well?
SPEAKER_01Well, I have to tell you, what an amazing individual and how incredibly inspiring to hear him talk about his personal journey. It was a gift to hear him speak. I think he does a good job of expressing this, but education really transformed him. It transformed him, not just once he acquired the credits, but the whole act of doing it changed his behavior, his positionality, his understanding of the world, and his ability to sort of use what he was learning in real time to become the man he wanted to be, right? And I think education was key to that. And he says that what a privilege to have been part of that journey as an institution. I also really, really appreciated how he highlighted the personal relationships and the how as much as the what, maybe even more than the what. So individuals like Katie Dwyer, who is our prison education director, who is unbelievably good, and the faculty who work in her department who teach these individuals every single day, how he felt seen, how he felt that he had dignity. You know, he talked about agency and how when you are an adult in custody, that's one of the things you don't really have. That the system makes the decisions for you, right? But to have agency and to develop it requires a sort of mutual respect. And I think he felt that and able to articulate how critical that was for his journey. So I think that it speaks highly of the individuals that have been inside the prisons doing this work. And I'm just so happy that there was attention to the whole person, not just the student, in terms of his story and in terms of the stories of so many who have shared that journey. And then to have him dedicate his newly unspooling professional life, right, as he emerges from this higher education landscape into giving back, I thought that was pretty inspiring too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and when he said a lot of times when individuals who are justice impacted released to their community, they're told to go slow. And he said, I tell him to enroll in education because that's a good place to put that energy.
SPEAKER_01I know, I love it. It's great.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you for reflecting on Cameron's interview. And I also wanted to ask you if you heard anything that could illuminate a new opportunity for the college through Cameron's conversation that supports student success.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I think that continuing to emphasize the quality of the engagement as much as the academic content is critical. Again, I think that's something that Katie does naturally, but really made it crystal clear for me when Cameron was talking in terms of what the experience was like. I would say also that we are limited in what we can do because of, first of all, the number of tutors that we're allowed to employ and that will work for the wage. These are structural elements that limit our ability to expand this opportunity to more students. And I think looking carefully at what those limitations are and then seeing how we can work together as education and prison institutions to try to create more capacity for this work, I think that would be really important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I appreciate your take on that question. And I wanted to zoom out a little bit more. We've talked about prison education, we've talked about adult education and transfer pathways. And I wanted to ask you more broadly, what role does Shamecada Community College play in advancing regional economic prosperity? And how can the college continue to respond to these shifting workforce needs through innovation?
SPEAKER_01This is something we're doing a lot of very focused thinking on. I'm blessed to tell you that Shamecada, it's like it's just innovative in its DNA. It's out there, it's trying things, and it's got a culture that fosters that. And I think that's going to be really important as we move forward and see some of these workforce changes that you and I have already mentioned. I think we have to really work even more closely with our partners, our regional employers across multiple sectors. We need to understand workforce trends, work with our amazing workforce talent development board, work with our community-based organizations, and of course, local economic development agency and school districts, feeder school districts too. I mean, this is an ecosystem of entities that I think will need to work extremely closely together to be able to ride the curve of what is coming. And our training will only be as good as our relationships with the employers who are seeing this play out in real time. I think that how we help our local employers, it's one thing for me to say we need to be really close to employers so they can tell us what's happening, but at the same time, we have an educational role to scale up things. What does it mean to bring in, and we've already done this, solar-powered farm equipment, and we bring it in an AI-directed large equipment, and then we lend it out to local farmers to try it out for a day. I mean, this is what it means to support innovation across an entire sector. We need to do a lot more of that. We need to be thinking too about how to incorporate different kinds of training and have it all linked together. Because if someone just wants to take a nine-week course to get a certain skill, well then if they come back, would they like to build upon that? It's all about stacking, lattice, connecting, and making sure people have credit for what they're learning and what they bring in. This is what it means to be a lot more flexible to a dynamic workforce environment. We have work to do, but I'm just glad to be at Chemekada because I think we've got the energy to really be at the front end of it.
SPEAKER_03It's inspiring to hear how the college is helping to shape and drive that economic prosperity for the region with these strong partnerships. We try. Well, thanks for talking broadly about workforce innovation. And I wanted to come back to what this podcast is really about, and that's elevating student voices. So, what are some ways that Chemecita Community College is elevating student voices to shape policies and programs leading to student success?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, obviously we are always trying to put students in the center and trying to elevate their voice, just like you are on your podcast. Our academic development area, which is our ESOL and GED area of the college, holds regular student focus groups each term. And a significant majority of those students are over 25 years old. And so what we're doing there is trying to hear from students about their goals, their career interests, so we can develop and align our academic and workforce programming to meet their needs and their interests. And we also ask them what type of supports they need to be successful. And this is helpful because the need for a wraparound supports. Of course, is huge. And then how we connect ourselves up in the background so the student doesn't have to leap from office to office to office to office to get what they need, but that we are well connected to ensure that the handoffs are smooth and that the student is well served. But we're always looking to improve and we're always trying to get that input. So that's one of those structured ways in which we do that. We also started a new committee this year called the Adult Learner Experience Committee. And that brings together campus leaders from both academics and student services to better understand the data and research about adult learners in our areas and their needs and their challenges. And so that committee is developing a list of prioritized recommendations for how Shemecita can better meet the evolving and somewhat specific needs of adult learners in our community. And that is a large and multifaceted task, but one that I think helps us not stay too myopically focused on this idea of a 17-year-old, which is still an important part of our community, but isn't the whole community.
SPEAKER_03That's fantastic to hear engaging with students, listening, understanding what their interests are in terms of pathways and careers and what those supports are, even more so for your academic development area, because those students, as you said, ESOL, GED prep in Oregon, the colleges have always offered those programs and services, but they haven't been front and center. So to really spend the time and think about from that academic development level of what are students needing, where are their interests, and how does the college build those pathways with the appropriate supports will just really enhance the enrollment, the retention, the completion goals, anchoring in that student experience.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yep. And it helps us do things like connect students to our benefits navigator, and it helps us understand better what it means to actually access what it is we're offering. Because, you know, this idea that you build it, that they will come, that's just not necessarily true, right? I think they'd love to come, but how we make that connection, we need to listen in order to be able to do that better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We talked about earlier there are thousands of adults in the college's district that could benefit from post-secondary education, from those who may not have a high school equivalency, to those who do, who've never enrolled in college, to those who've taken some classes but don't have a meaningful credential. I know some colleges are trying to figure out how do we find those prospective students out in our community because they're working, they have families, but some of those individuals are already on campus. They're taking those academic development courses. So, what better way to keep them on campus and support that trajectory and those pathways than to really understand their interests and then provide the supports to get them to what their academic and career goals are?
SPEAKER_01It's a major door into the college.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, thanks for talking about student voice and overall having this conversation, reflecting on Cameron's interview, talking about the value and importance of prison education programs, adult education, transfer pathways, and just more background information on Shemecita Community College in this spirit of innovation and responsiveness and collaboration into the community. So I appreciate you taking the time and having this conversation, Dr. Howard. And wanted to ask you if there's anything else you'd like to share for this discussion.
SPEAKER_01It's just a real pleasure. I love the podcast. I think it's absolutely fabulous. And I think it's also a way that we get to learn about some of the innovative things that are happening all around us. And at this moment in time, when we're really trying to keep up with a lot of change, I think it's really important.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you for that. And thank you always for being all in on student success.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Mark.
SPEAKER_03I'd like to welcome my next guest to the podcast today, Dr. Lucretia Murphy, who's the Vice President for the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement at JFF. Welcome, Dr. Murphy, to the All in Student Pathways Forward podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me, Mark.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate you taking the time and sharing some of your expertise and plenty of insights for this conversation. And I am pretty certain that the majority of listeners to the podcast are familiar with JFF, Jobs for the Future, but they may not be as familiar with the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement. So I wanted to ask you if you could share a brief overview about the center and how it promotes education, training, and fair chance employment for people in corrections facilities and the community.
SPEAKER_00I would love to, and I'm very happy that your listeners would know about JFF. That makes me smile. So the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement is really seeking to leverage JFF superpower on behalf of people with records. So to think about how education and training can be a pathway to quality jobs for people with records. That includes people who are currently incarcerated as well. So through the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement, which we shorten to CJ, we have multiple pillars that lead us towards that outcome. So we focus on talent development. So that is ensuring that people have access to the education and training that equips them for quality jobs, post-secondary credentials, apprenticeship, other work-based learning and training opportunities, and to ensure that that happens behind the walls as well as full access once people are in re-entry. Then we focus on the employers as well so that we're creating access to quality jobs through employment. So we provide training programs, cohort programs, individual advising. We work with sectors through intermediaries like an industry association or other sector-based organizations to ensure that employers really understand how to do fair chance hiring, that it's really a way of opening up their talent pools and not a way of restricting their hiring. So through that work, we've been able to connect with employers across the country, but also focus with employers in particular communities so that they can really be part of that ecosystem. We also have a state and federal policy focus so that we can think about what are the policy levers that really enable people to get access to education or work or kind of the supports that go around that, the infrastructure of that. And then we have a research component so that we can really understand what the impact is for people who have access to quality jobs. So, for example, as part of JFF's work on the American Job Quality Survey, that survey included people with records. We could get a sense of the access that people with records feel they have to quality jobs and what their experience is with quality jobs. So, in that collective work, we're able to really impact the ability for people to get access to quality jobs, be equipped for quality jobs, and the policy-enabling conditions for that.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate the overview. I think that's really helpful and such impactful work that can really help the field across the country. So thanks for elaborating there. And you touched on this a little bit, but I did want to ask how do community and technical colleges fit in with the work of the center? And could you provide an example of a partner community college or two that has developed effective programs or student supports advancing education and training for justice-impacted individuals leading to those quality jobs and careers?
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, certainly can. So community colleges, I think, as they are in every area, are really an engine for opportunity here. And they provide the education and training behind the walls, also set up really robust programming for people when they come home. So I think in a number of ways, the community colleges just continue to be that first touch for education for so many people. I know you've talked as well with a student who benefited from having access to community colleges behind the walls. I think one way that community colleges, I guess two ways really that enable them to be unique service providers behind the walls is because they do provide GED training. And a number of people do end up in prison without having that basic GED, especially on the younger end, right? Whether it's in the juvenile facilities or adult facilities, but particularly the younger end of the adult facilities, being able to access that GED. And I think the signal that it sends that you're accessing the GED from a community college, and usually those providers and those instructors will be able to help people make that next step. And so I think that becomes really important when it's a community college. And then also providing the career and technical education training, and that can link really well, you know, in Oregon, other states like Kansas. The CTE providers are already working so well with the workforce system in community and bring those partnerships to the work they do in corrections. And I think that's really important too, because they're already thinking about the education linked to training, linked to the employment. So Oregon is an example of that. And I know in your previous conversation with Cameron, you kind of touched on where the local community colleges are playing a role. I think also we've seen that in Kansas, where JFF had actually worked with Kansas and a number of other states in an accelerating opportunity initiative that was a community college redesign, and they've brought that into their work in corrections as well. So we're really thinking about integrating their community college from adult basic ed into the credentialing so that it becomes a quicker and more efficient and effective pathway for people. And so it's just really exciting to see when the innovations in the community college are brought into the work that they do in corrections, I think is really, really powerful. But another way, not just community colleges, but post-secondary become really important is when those institutions in their role as employers are also hiring the people who come through their program, whether it's in programs that are specifically designed for people with records, or they're hired as instructors or peer mentors. I think that's a big signal as well. One, it gives a signal to the individuals who are in the program to say, oh, this can lead to a job, right? Because I see people who are hired and working. But it also sends a signal, kind of like you had mentioned, as a champion. So usually a community college or four institutions are pretty significant employers in their local communities. And so it sends a signal to the other employers in the community as well to say, here's a talent pool. We've educated them, so we can hire them and know what their credentials are, but so can you. We can vouch for it in a way. So I think that's a two-prong signal that community colleges can offer.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I so appreciate all of this, but that last point in particular, because it parallels the conversations colleges are having with employers about job quality. And it's the same. If we're going out and promoting quality jobs with employers and helping them understand why they may be struggling with hiring retention and really framing it about job quality, colleges themselves, as large employers, have to own that and really understand how they're promoting job quality as an employer. And it's the same here in terms of hiring individuals who may have records or still behind the walls in terms of opportunity. I appreciate that point. And then interesting, you mentioned accelerating opportunity because while Oregon was not one of the official states for AO, we were actually a part of the network. I'm dating myself here, but that goes back many years when I was a dean of adult ed at a community college in Oregon, and we benefited tremendously from being a part of that JFF network with AO, with Kansas, learning the Washington state model with other states. And that really shaped how some of our colleges in Oregon were able to redesign adult ed programs to really integrate the IET model, the iBest model. So while we weren't an official AO state, we were invited to be a part of the network.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Great.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for talking about in-depth the community college role. And I wanted to ask you a little bit more about JFF's recently launching a new phase of the Fair Chance to Advance State Action Networks that are helping states expand high-quality post-secondary education and workforce pathways for individuals with histories of incarceration. And one of the four states participating in the inaugural cohort is Oregon, my home state. So I wanted to ask you, Dr. Murphy, if you could share a little bit more information on this initiative.
SPEAKER_00I would love to. We are so excited about this initiative. So excited that Oregon is a part of this initiative. So the Fair Chance to Advance initiative is really meant to bring a statewide, integrated focus to create ecosystems where the norm is advancement towards quality jobs. And so it's accepting the need for change. There's a lot of economic exclusion, right? With people who are unemployed, underemployed, not getting access to the work that can help them progress and really the kind of impacts that has on individuals, their families, their communities. And so to build the response, it's really thinking about how to maximize what we're seeing as some initial momentum. So for example, Pell Grant restoration, which I know Oregon community colleges are one of the first to get Pell Grants under the new formal restoration. But that kind of opens up the door again for states to see themselves as really being able to generate the kind of credentialing opportunities for people to have access. There's more focus on re-entry and employment, right? With more employers coming together to think about how they can hire. And so through Fair Chance to Advance, we want to bring all of this momentum together and all the levers that a state has to really make an impact. And so that means bringing together your statewide education system, community colleges as well as for your institutions, bringing together employers, your departments of labor, your workforce system, thinking really strategically about how community-based organizations are a part of that. And then there's a real strong data component here so that we can start to track what opportunities are being afforded to people across systems. That very tricky word of data sharing comes up a bit. And with our partner, the Coleridge Institute, we're actually providing some technical expertise so that people know how to build safe, effective, confidential data systems to be able to do that. So all of these partners are coming together, as you mentioned. There are four that were selected after a national RFP to come together in what we're calling the state action network. So it's Oregon, Kansas, North Carolina, and Maine. The state action networks are really bringing together the leaders within states to think about and build their roadmap for their individual states to be able to coordinate all their systems, track the progress for education and workforce, and really drive towards these quality jobs. But also because the four states are working together, it's an opportunity for these states to really learn from one another where are the things that they can adopt, where the things they can adapt, and how that can help move them forward. So it's really an exciting time at this launch to think about what states are bringing together. In addition to the state action networks, though, we're trying to build other opportunities to engage people nationally. So there's also a leadership network. So that means we can bring together professional development opportunities from different fair chance roles. So we have a fellowship program for people who are directly impacted, as well as a directly impacted advisory board that works with the state action network to help build the voice and elevate the expertise of people who are directly impacted. Work with the Correction Education Leadership Academy as well, so that corrections leaders can be brought along in this work and just different opportunities for learning across these states and across a national network to again build out the orientation, right? That there should be a statewide comprehensive focus on quality jobs, the roles that everybody can play, that everybody has a role to play, and we need everybody to play that role. And also that states are really leaders in innovation in this work. One of the things that I think is really important about this work is that because it's situated as starting in corrections as the place of creating the fair chance, it does give an opportunity for departments of corrections to be seen as innovators in this work as well as critical partners in the pathway to quality jobs. And I think often it's seen as corrections is the holdout in this work. And I think really being able to shift that orientation so corrections sees themselves really as the beginning of re-entry was important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. As I learn more about it, just so thrilled that Oregon is a part of that network and always the community of practice. We all learn so much from one another as working to make systemic change. And there's so much value in having that network, professional development opportunity. So I look forward to staying connected with my colleagues in Oregon that are actively involved in that to see how this can really improve those pathways and access to quality jobs for individuals who have been justice impacted. And additionally, really appreciate that there is deliberate work in engaging individuals with lived experience to help shape those changes and as a key stakeholder in this work. Thank you for sharing that. I want to stay in Oregon for a moment, and you talked earlier for a bit about Cameron Hayes, who I interviewed in the same episode prior. I wanted to ask you, Dr. Murphy, what your reactions were to my conversation with Cameron, who is a past prison education student at both Chemecita Community College here in Salem and Blue Mountain Community College in Eastern Oregon, who has now continued on his educational pathway towards not one, but two master's degrees while doing really impactful restorative justice work in the community.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I love that interview. I think so many of the things that he mentioned are really, really important to think about. One, I think just talking about his personal history, he said he grew up in a family where he felt very early on he was in this world of drugs and crime. And I think what is really important to note is that even though sometimes we talk in the terms of second chances, for many people, the systems could be a first chance. And I think what Cameron described is where corrections really had an opportunity to be a first chance. And because a community college was there providing education, it could show up that way. And I think it's really important for us to think about if we fail people in one area, let's think about how the system isn't reinforcing punishment and disadvantage, but it's really providing a critical first chance. And so it gave him that opportunity to get the real first chance at an education credential, being that GED. It really hit me what that must have meant for him when he was able to access that. I think the other tension in that is really understanding that it's the pathway. And because he was able to get the GED, could move to the community college role, but making sure that we can help people navigate to completion. And it sounds like he really had the resources and the supports to help do that. So once he got that community college credential, he had a way of navigating to the next step and really thinking about what he wanted to do, navigating to two master's degrees. But I think that's really important too, that it doesn't happen by accident, right? That once you get into the pathway, you know what the next step is. So it's really important to have that pathway formed out really well so people can find their sequence. I thought that was really impressive. I think the other thing that doesn't penetrate our perception of who people who've been incarcerated are is that he was constantly seeking it. He wanted to learn. He described himself as someone who wanted to learn, someone who wanted to have new experiences. And we have, I think the stigma that follows people who've been incarcerated follows people who've been arrested, is that they're lazy, they don't want to do better, they can't do better. And I think his experience and the thousands of others, right, who have opportunity to access education is that in fact they crave it. Yeah, they seek it out, right? And when there might be a dialogue going on in other places of society, is college worth it? Is everybody a college material? I think what we see from Cameron's experience is there's no doubt college is worth it. It is going to be the pathway to new opportunities. And he is really seeking it. And his pathway might look different than someone else's. So having many different pathways is important. But I just thought that his experience. Is really a statement of value of education and what he had to go through to make that work, I think is really, really impressive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I appreciate your reflections there. And I think as you were talking about that those pathways are clear, Cameron described how much work it can take to have the invitation to enroll in programs because of the limited seats or the limited funding, the persistence it takes for someone who wants a first chance, who seeks education, one of thousands, and yet it's still a lot of work to get there and then to be able to see the results. I mean, someone who sought education, got his GED behind the walls, continued on, released got his bachelor's degree, and is moving forward in advanced degrees and promoting educational opportunities for other individuals, justice impacted. Like it just shows the transformative power of education.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think on the part of the college as well, because it's not easy for either the college or corrections to figure out how the program's going to work, which professors are going to go in, a professor goes in, you can bring in this material, you can't bring in this material. You know, it's all of those things. There's a bunch of little tiny and big things that stand in the way of offering your class and teaching your class.
SPEAKER_03That's a really good point. And I appreciate you sharing it and reflecting on Cameron's interview. What resources beyond the Fair Chance to Advance initiative do you think would be helpful for any organization that's just getting started to examine and improve systems, policies, programs, and supports for justice-impacted individuals?
SPEAKER_00Great question. So JFF has some, not surprising. So on our webpage, we do have a link to the Fair Chance to Advance work, and there's some resources there. One I think has been really impactful, as we've heard from people who applied for the process, is a readiness assessment. And it kind of gives an ability for stakeholders working together to think about where they are at the state level in terms of readiness. And so that's been really a helpful tool. We also have a normalizing education resource collective. So that's a place where institutions can come and see what are some resources for being able to offer post-secondary education behind the walls and for folks who are in community. There are a number of institutions that are listed there. And so if people look, they might see that their institution is already participating, but there are resources that are offered there as well. We also have line of services for employers. So we have fair chance hiring services that are available. We provide a cohort model that people can opt into from across the country and work together with other employers. We also do a train the trainer model. So we can train a set of staff at an employer's organization to be able to understand and then teach others either in their organization or another division. I think also there are networks of individuals themselves who are directly impacted. So the formally incarcerated college graduates network, prison of professionals network. So nationally, people who are incarcerated or have been incarcerated can connect to those networks. And they also have resources about navigating services when they get out. So there's really a number of resources. And at the center, we'd be happy to connect folks to other resources, either if we know them in their local community or nationally. But I think your question opens up a good point that this is a moment where if you're interested, there are resources to help you take the next step. I think there's been a times, obviously, when Pell had been closed. And if you wanted to start a program, it was really climbing uphill. But I think now we're in a moment where if you are interested, whatever your role is as stakeholder, there's some resources to help get to that next step or get to the community of practice that's doing the work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it sounds like an extensive amount of resources available through the center and JFF, but well beyond. And for all these different stakeholders that may be interested.
SPEAKER_00One that I should mention, the Alliance for Higher Education in Prison, right? Which I think a number of folks that you've talked to are a part of. And they also have a national conference, but I think that's also another network that brings together individuals who are directly impacted, community colleges and four institutions that work with them, faculty that work with them. So that's also a great learning network that demonstrates the energy of this work across the country.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I wanted to ask how does the Center for Justice and Economic Advancement support elevating the voices of individuals with lived experience in the justice system in this work? And how do you see this shaping better systems, policies, programs, and partnerships?
SPEAKER_00I love this question, and I'm so glad it's a part of our conversation. So I can start from the macro level. So JFF hires people with records. We don't do background checks. So it's a really important feature of our work that many of the staff at the center are people who are directly impacted or the children of people who are directly impacted. So it means that they're bringing to their expertise also a level of lived experience that brings a lot of clarity for not only the work we do in the field, but the way I think that we approach work. A lot of understanding and enhances the expertise there. We partner closely with organizations that are led by or support constituencies of people with records, like I mentioned, the Alliance for Higher Education in Prison or other organizations. And then also in each of our initiatives, we typically have advisors on our work. So for Fair Chance to Advance, there's an advisory board of people who are directly impacted. There's one for each state. So the work that's being developed in that state has the influence and the impact of that board. Also, there's so many organizations led by people with records. There's great resources that come out. So we really try to do what we can to cross-publicize, to make sure that gets out. Because again, as I had mentioned with the work around fair chance hiring, it really isn't a charity. It's core that the people who are closest to the problem are really informing what the solution should be. And I think there's a level of persistence and tenacity as well as expertise when people who are directly impacted are part of the conversation because they know how important it is. Sometimes if they're not a part of the conversation, it's really easy to say, oh, well, that's a niche population. If we make the policy work for them, it's too hard. If we make the practice work for them, it's too complicated. And so it's easy to not have a program in prison because it's hard, or it's too easy to not have a policy that takes into account collateral consequences. But when you have people at the table who are directly impacted, they know that if you let them off, if they're cut out, all society loses, right? And so they bring a level of tenacity and persistence to make sure that the work stays true to the experience and the needs of people with records. And then also just the blind spots, right? Having not been incarcerated, they're just things I don't think about as being a problem or a barrier. And so I think really having folks who have that expertise means you get a full understanding of the problem set so you can just build much better solutions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So many different ways to integrate individuals with lived experience into this work at policy, programmatic, and systems levels, partnership levels, and the why. I really appreciate Dr. Murphy, your explanation of why this needs to be inclusive of individuals with backgrounds and the impact that they have. And overall, I just wanted to thank you again for this conversation. It's been really informative to me to learn more deeply the work of the center, the approach, the connections, the networks, the tools, the framing. And I just wanted to ask if there's anything else you'd like to share about JFF and the impactful work of the center for this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much again for having me, Mark. I've so enjoyed this conversation. I think the only other thing I would add is that we do have our annual conference, the Horizon Summit. This year it's going to be in DC. It's July 13th and 14th. And there's information on the webpage if you're interested in learning more about it or registering. And then we also have a one-day summit afterwards on July 15th that's focused on women in the curriculum system and the implications of that for economic mobility. So the Women's Justice Conference is on July 15th. So it's another place where these conversations take place. We have a fair chance track, so a series of sessions that focus on these issues, and those are live streamed to corrections facilities across the country, too. So an opportunity for people who are incarcerated to be a part of those sessions. So that's the only other thing that I would add, a little plug, but thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation.
SPEAKER_03Likewise. Well, that will do it for this episode of the All-In Student Pathways Forward Podcast. We'll be back soon with the next episode featuring an inspiring parenting student from Southwestern Oregon Community College in Coos Bay, Oregon, along with interviews with a college vice president and program officer from ECMC Foundation. This is the host, Mark Goldberg. Thanks for listening in and being all in on student success.