Today our featured herbs are red clover & damiana – two complementary fluid-moving remedies.
Red clover (Trifolium pratense) has a reputation as an herb that “cures breast cancer”. That’s not the way we talk or think about it, but it’s worth digging in to why people say that! What underlies the claim is an observable effect: the plant can diminish or reduce swellings (and not only in breast tissue). This is due to its capacity to improve the circulation of lymphatic fluid, and that’s a good thing – helpful for stagnation patterns and for immune efficiency. But it’s still not a “cure”, and it’s important for herbalists to be clear about that difference.
Damiana (Turnera diffusa) is more of a blood-moving than lymph-moving herb. It’s one of our favorite dispersive remedies, for increasing blood flow to the periphery and to the skin. Its affinity for the pelvis and it’s capacity to restore or enhance sensitivity in nerve endings contribute to its reputation as an aphrodisiac. It’s not about raging lust – it’s about relaxation, sensation, and communication!
Red clover and damiana both make an appearance in our Integumentary Health course, along with an array of other herbs who help the skin. Whatever the problem is – whether we call it eczema, psoriasis, or just “that troublesome patch of skin”, herbs can help! Topical applications for common herbs play a big role in this work, and we also dig into the effective herbs – like these two – which you can take orally to get results on the skin.
Like all our offerings, this self-paced online video course comes with free access to twice-weekly live Q&A sessions, lifetime access to current & future course material, open discussion threads integrated in each lesson, an active student community, study guides, quizzes & capstone assignments, and more!
If you enjoyed the episode, it helps us a lot if you subscribe, rate, & review our podcast wherever you listen. This helps others find us more easily. Thank you!
Our theme music is “Wings” by Nicolai Heidlas.
You can find all of our online herbalism courses at online.commonwealthherbs.com!
Today our featured herbs are red clover & damiana – two complementary fluid-moving remedies.
Red clover (Trifolium pratense) has a reputation as an herb that “cures breast cancer”. That’s not the way we talk or think about it, but it’s worth digging in to why people say that! What underlies the claim is an observable effect: the plant can diminish or reduce swellings (and not only in breast tissue). This is due to its capacity to improve the circulation of lymphatic fluid, and that’s a good thing – helpful for stagnation patterns and for immune efficiency. But it’s still not a “cure”, and it’s important for herbalists to be clear about that difference.
Damiana (Turnera diffusa) is more of a blood-moving than lymph-moving herb. It’s one of our favorite dispersive remedies, for increasing blood flow to the periphery and to the skin. Its affinity for the pelvis and it’s capacity to restore or enhance sensitivity in nerve endings contribute to its reputation as an aphrodisiac. It’s not about raging lust – it’s about relaxation, sensation, and communication!
Red clover and damiana both make an appearance in our Integumentary Health course, along with an array of other herbs who help the skin. Whatever the problem is – whether we call it eczema, psoriasis, or just “that troublesome patch of skin”, herbs can help! Topical applications for common herbs play a big role in this work, and we also dig into the effective herbs – like these two – which you can take orally to get results on the skin.
Like all our offerings, this self-paced online video course comes with free access to twice-weekly live Q&A sessions, lifetime access to current & future course material, open discussion threads integrated in each lesson, an active student community, study guides, quizzes & capstone assignments, and more!
If you enjoyed the episode, it helps us a lot if you subscribe, rate, & review our podcast wherever you listen. This helps others find us more easily. Thank you!
Our theme music is “Wings” by Nicolai Heidlas.
You can find all of our online herbalism courses at online.commonwealthherbs.com!
<silence> Hi, I'm Katya . And I'm Rinn . And we're here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts , and on the internet everywhere. Thanks to the power of the intermittent podcast, <laugh>. <laugh> , isn't it? The power of the internet?
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, that too, too . Oh , okay. <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just ,
Speaker 2:You know, it's been a minute,
Speaker 1:It's been a minute. It has been a minute. I just want everybody to know that right before he started the recording, we have these notes on the laptop here beside us, so that we don't get too stuck in a tangent. I know we get stuck in tangents a lot, but the idea of the notes is that we won't do that. And right before we started, he hit the button to make the font larger, because I'm getting bifocals. And right now I can't see from a , I just
Speaker 2:You don't have them yet?
Speaker 1:I don't have them yet. And soon . Soon , it's okay. I maybe you just had to be there, but it was just this little , um, cute and also mischievous movement of like, consideration and also scam us
Speaker 2:Accessibility for everyone. Folks, that's what we're about. Yes. <laugh>. That includes us, you know,
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Yes . So, whatever. Anyway, the font is bigger now, and I appreciate it, <laugh> . And
Speaker 2:Now we can, and now we can read it. And, and what does this say? Oh, this says, today we're gonna talk about Red Clover and Damiana .
Speaker 1:I'm pretty excited about it. That
Speaker 2:Should be fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. These are two herbs that I have been basically living off of over the past Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> months. So really for a while . Yeah. For a while . Yeah . Yeah . You've been , you've been doing some
Speaker 2:Work.
Speaker 1:I have. I'm , I'm really excited about them. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:So before we get into that though, we're gonna , um, just briefly mention that , uh, if you like our podcast, you should check out our website, commonwealth herbs.com. First of all , uh, if you like the podcast, there, you can find a complete listing of all of the past episodes , uh, including transcripts. And it's way easier to search through the archive there than scrolling back forever in your podcast app.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's true, <laugh>. That's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm often, you know, I I'm often doing this myself. I'm like, oh, there was that episode of, of , uh, you know, unexplainable or the Ancient Egyptian podcast or whatever, and which one was it? I don't know. How will I ever find it? <laugh>, go to their website, use the search box. Yeah. So check ours out.
Speaker 1:He never searches ours, though. He literally remembers everything we said in every single episode. And I dunno how he does it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's called The Magic of , uh, production, because I check it before we start filming. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Oh, <laugh>. Usually , usually . I didn't know that .
Speaker 2:80% of the time. Yeah , yeah , yeah . Uh , but on our website, you'll also find a blog archive with some really cool things in there. Uh , some recommended resource lists, like, where can I learn about this? And that we have some ideas for you <laugh> , uh, and some book recommendations as well.
Speaker 1:Yes . Everybody's always excited about book recommendations.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good way to line up some new books to add to your pile .
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:I like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah .
Speaker 2:Uh , and you'll also find links there to take you straight to our free courses and our entire course catalog. So again, all of that is@commonwealthherbs.com. Yes . All right . We also wanna remind you that we are not doctors. We are herbalist and holistic health educators.
Speaker 1:The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States. So these discussions are for educational purposes only.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , we wanna remind you that good health doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn't exist as an objective standard. It's influenced by your individual needs, experiences, and goals. So, keep in mind that we're not attempting to present a single dogmatic right way that you must adhere to.
Speaker 1:Everyone's body is different. So the things that we're talking about may or may not apply directly to you, but we hope that they'll give you some new information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with. Further
Speaker 2:Finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn't mean that you're alone on the journey, and it doesn't mean that you're to blame for your current state of health, but it does mean that the final decision, when you're considering any course of action, whether that was discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, that's always your choice to make.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You
Speaker 1:Know, we've been talking about that a lot lately , um, because part of why there haven't been any new episodes of the podcast for a little while is that we have been , um, filming lots of new updated material for the clinical skills course, which is part of our clinical herbalist program. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um, and we've been talking a lot about how to , like, in our culture, if you seek medical care or even just medical advice , um, there's a, a real power imbalance in inherent in the system. And we've been talking a lot about how do we as herbalists , um, remedy that imbalance? How do we return power to the client? Um, and shift from a kind of, I will give you the answer, sort of a scenario to a, we will collaborate on solutions that will work for you kind of scenario. And that that's not something that, that clients just automatically know how to do, because we don't have that modeled in our culture. And so finding your way to that kind of collaboration, both as a a client , um, but also as an herbalist, as a clinician , um, is work that we do together intentionally, because it is like the stuff that we say every week, except it isn't every week so much anymore.
Speaker 2:<laugh> <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Well , but you know, that , that it is your right to have agency over your health, but you're not alone in that. Like, it is your right also to seek counsel and seek information and seek education without feeling forced into a decision. And anyway, so that's, that is what collaboration is, right? Like seeking a lot of input and then coming up with a good idea that's gonna work for you. Yeah . Not seeking counsel and being told what you feel and what should be done about it.
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah. Yeah . And you know, it's important to emphasize , um, repeatedly through your, your training and your practice as an herbalist, these ideas, because they're , there's something you have to actively work to maintain and to realize and to cultivate , um, in all of the different aspects of your work and your relationship with the people that you work for and that you work with. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , um, it's very easy to find that slipping away from you in the rush of like, I've got something that will help you. I've got something that will fix you. I've got something that will cure you. Ah , let's do it. You know, like, it's very, very easy to get caught up into that. And people want to bring you there, you know , like, they walk in and that's part of their expectation. And so a lot of the,
Speaker 1:Which is reasonable because that's, that's the expectation that we have all been sort of socialized to have. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Um , but just herbalism is different and
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's so hard because you feel excited, you're like, Ooh , I know just the right plant . I know just the right strategy. I know just the right whatever. And it's like, it's not like you wanna take somebody there because you're like a bad practitioner. It's like the excitement of , uh, I, I really wanna help. But then, you know, just always bringing that back to I really wanna collaborate. I really wanna work with you. I really, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, this is, I'm , I'm finding a way here into our, our topic today, these two herbs that we're gonna talk about, and I think I'm gonna say it like this. Uh, hey, Katya, I read on the internet that red clover cures breast cancer <laugh>. What's the best way for me to take it? <laugh>. I'm sorry. What I mean is what's the strongest way for me to get it <laugh> ? Right?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh , you will find that on the internet. Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:Listen, you find a lot of trash on the internet and , um, the , you know, okay. So where does that like myth come from? I think myth is probably the right thing to call it in this day and age.
Speaker 2:Hmm .
Speaker 1:Um, so the, the origins behind that are that in like, I don't know, in like the late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds, there's quite a bit of documentation around red clover. I don't wanna say for <laugh> red clover as part of a protocol for managing breast cancer and other kinds of cancers.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Um, and that does not mean that red clover will cure cancer. Um, but, you know, if we think about that part of history, there were surgeries that were available, not like we have today. You know, like a lumpectomy or a mastectomy today , um, is obviously much safer than, than doing that kind of work in the past. And they weren't able to do as much as we can do now, but they were able to do some surgical procedures. And although it might surprise you at that time, they also were able to evaluate the cancerous tissue under a microscope and, and be able to determine like, here was the boundary of the tissue, and now I'm into the fresh tissue , the, like, healthy tissue, and I, I got the whole thing or whatever. Now, again, this , the surgeries that they did then could not, they , they couldn't do it for every kind of cancer. They couldn't do it for every person with the kind of cancer that they could do it for. Right. Like, it was , it was much more limited in scope. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But I don't want you to think that like, we didn't have surgical technology. Like that goes back tens of thousands of probably even more than that years. Right. Um, okay. So as part of that work, it was recognized that , um, the lymphatic system plays a very important role in managing cancer. And so that is, that is one of red clover's like super superpowers, that it is able to , um, stimulate lymphatic flu in a way that is not too jarring, but very effective. Like, it's not so mild that it's sort of just like, oh, just a, just a gentle stimulation, but it's not so strong that it's red root and it's gonna dry out all of your lymph nodes. You know, like it's a , it's like the Goldilocks lymphatic stimulation. Um, and although I find red clover personally in my own body to be , um, like a super effective general lymphatic stimulant, even for like lower body stuff. Um, and like , uh, working with venous insufficiency in the legs, for example. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Um ,
Speaker 1:So I don't want you to think that it's only for boobs. It , I really do find it to be very helpful for the whole body, but there is a definitive affinity for boobs. There . There is , it's a
Speaker 2:Affinity , a <laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Yeah. And , um, and red colver can be worked with topically in this way as well. And, you know, when we think about breast cancer today, we have a ton of differentiating ability.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Lots of nuance. This one is estrogen receptor positive, and this one is not gonna react in the same way, you know , uh, even aside from just like how severe it is or how large or how aggressive or Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> , you
Speaker 2:Know, other, other , um, uh, metrics that we might think of.
Speaker 1:Right. And even if we think about throughout history , um, times when it couldn't be fully evaluated, it was like, well, that's possibly a cyst or possibly a cancerous slump, or possibly some other kind of benign lump, or possibly like an inflamed lymph node or a milk duct or a , you know, like , um, sometimes they didn't have the technology to be all the way certain about what was going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And even, you know, historically this, the idea cancer , um, it , it , you would, you would start with what's called bad blood <laugh>, right? Mm . You would start with, okay, you are getting more skin eruptions, you're getting more digestive difficulties, you're getting more like expressions of stagnant fluid and poor clearance of your fluids , uh, in the body. So we're gonna work with some alternative herbs, and that might include clover. Uh, we're gonna improve your body's , um, filtration, we're gonna improve other facts , uh, factors inside your metabolism, and that's gonna help to keep your fluids cleaner. And then that's gonna lead to the reduction or maybe the dis dissolution of these things that have formed. Right? So you were talking about like the 18 hundreds and so, and people removing tumors and thinking about lymphatic flow and all of that. But even before then, just to say, oh, there's a lump drink clover for a while . Hey, the lump is softer. Hey, the lump is smaller. Right. Um, a connection to be made on that level.
Speaker 1:Right. But then, but yeah, and then that tying into the, like, the time when we knew there was a lump there, but we couldn't necessarily know exactly what it was, and we maybe didn't know all the different things that lumps could be. Um , we have a lot better imaging now, and so , um, that's good sometimes and that's bad sometimes. Um, but , uh, but we, we can really differentiate different things. Whereas, you know, a lot of stuff that was sort of just labeled as breast cancer, may have been cysts, may have been other things, but regardless of what it is, if you think about this energetically, if you just think, oh, I have just this big lump somewhere, whether that is a big clot of menstrual blood, that, that you notice and you're like, whoa , that's just a big lump. Or whether that is some kind of fibroid or some kind of cyst or all the way to a tumor, honestly, whether it's constipation, <laugh>, you know, like that's also a big lump. Um, and, you know, or like food that's sitting in your stomach and not going anywhere, it's not digesting also a big
Speaker 2:Lump.
Speaker 1:Um, all of these things are stagnation. Oh, we can also think about varicose veins. That's a big lump too, right? Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Okay. So all of these things are stagnation. And in a time when it was harder to differentiate exactly what kind of lump it was, okay, well, they always knew what constipation was, <laugh> , you know, like , whatever . But, but , um, the lumps that you can't see, like is it a, is it a this, is it a that, is it just a sebaceous cyst? Is it, you know, not always was it clear? Um, and so if you don't have the technology to know exactly what your lump is, what are you left with? Uh, well, there's an accumulation of something and it really probably shouldn't be there and we should move it out. So logically, energetically, the idea of stimulating the lymphatic system in a kind of Goldilocks way, we're not gonna just completely dry it out. We're not gonna be super extreme about it. Um, makes a lot of sense. And that part of not super extreme about it, and Goldilocks also is important because this is not an overnight situation. Hmm . And so , um, today, because we have many other options available to us, the way that we work with red clover when we are supporting somebody with breast cancer , um, is very different. And so obviously this is gonna be super complex, and I'm not going to get into all of the details in a podcast, but in a person for whom red clover is gonna be appropriate in a breast cancer situation, this would be playing a supportive role. For example , uh, a relative or several relatives, maybe mom and a few aunts had a type of breast cancer that works well with red clover. You don't have it and you don't wanna have it. And so you start drinking red clover now in a preventative way to make sure that your lymphatic system is working well, right . Addressing problems right from the start, that kind of thing. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, you know, this is the, this is, it's not the whole point <laugh> of Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> looking at plants and looking at problems and people through the lens of herbal energetics. But it is one of the things that it enables you to do , uh, that are maybe not available to other methods, you know, or other tools. So if you look at your own body and you say, yeah, I'm , I'm prone to stagnation, I gotta make sure I keep my fluids moving. One of the ways I can do that is by drinking AT blend that's got some lymphatic movers in it, like red clover, and I'll make that a regular habit. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know , most days, you know ? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:And at the same time, I can make sure that I get some movements into my day that's also gonna help keep my fluids circulating, right? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> other strategies I can think of, but the goal is to, is to anticipate the problem before it fully manifests. Right. Right .
Speaker 1:Right .
Speaker 2:And I think people can understand that pretty well with cancer, especially now in the time where , um, at least I hope a little bit that the, the concept of overtreatment has , uh, made its way out to the general public. This is kind of what you hinted at earlier, where sometimes the capacity to be able to scan things super finely can be a drawback or can have negative consequences.
Speaker 1:Right. Right, right.
Speaker 2:You know, overtreatment is a , is a major one, you know, this some , this is something that, yeah, it's odd, but it's not harming you. It's not going to kill you anytime soon. But then people might get an invasive surgery. There could be side, you know, consequences to that. And I'm not even just talking about like the surgery went wrong. I'm talking about, Hey, you just spend a couple of days in the hospital. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , that's a somewhat dangerous place to hang out <laugh> , uh, that is where the superbugs live.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, so, you know,
Speaker 1:I mean, and even if you think about a mastectomy or even a lumpectomy, even if it's very successful, there are side effects. Like your lymphatic system is damaged in that area. And, you know, that's something that you're gonna have to manage afterwards. And so I don't, I don't want any of this to sound like , um, you shouldn't see an oncologist or you shouldn't have surgery, you should do those things. Those are appropriate. But , um, if you have something that's diagnosed super, super early, and you have a practitioner who is , um, into it, and you have a really good clinical herbalist as well, and you're all collaborating together to say, okay, I'm going to make the following palate of changes in my life, including maybe an alternative blend that includes red clover, but a whole lot of other stuff too, that's appropriate for each individual person.
Speaker 2:Hmm .
Speaker 1:And we are going to test at regular intervals to find out is it working or is it not working? Is this growing? Is it shrinking? That would be ideal. And sometimes that can happen if you catch it early enough. Um, but, but that you are constantly monitoring, constantly saying in that state safe zone, and that with your medical practitioner, you have identified a line that is the, okay, this is not safe to experiment with anymore. Now we do need to take some action.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you're testing, and as long as you're staying in that safe area that has been identified, you say, great, okay, we're gonna continue with these holistic strategies. And if you hit that line or cross that line where you're not in a safe place anymore, that's when you talk to your oncologist about the next steps. Right . Um, so there's, there's definitely space for collaboration here for complimentary work. Um, and if you catch it early, like that's the good side of being able to catch things really, really early now, is that if you catch it early, sometimes you really can move the needle significantly. That's fantastic. If nothing else , maybe you make it easier to get through the surgery, right? Yeah . Like, you make the surgery a little less complex and you make your body a little stronger going in, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1:Um, but that's why I also say that like red clover is for breast cancer is like a myth to today , because that's not, first off, red clover by itself is never going to do the job. Um, yeah . And , but secondly, it's just so much more complicated than that today. I Right . And it probably always was, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I guess it's, it's that we can , um, identify some of the points of complexity in response to 'em more appropriately now .
Speaker 1:Yeah . Yeah .
Speaker 2:You know, like if we maybe take it this way, if somebody just hears red clover cures cancer, and then they say, all right , cool, I'm gonna go to Amazon, I'm gonna find myself a red clover product, and I'm gonna start taking that
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2:Well, what they're very likely to encounter are products made from the leaf of the red clover plant, which are processed in such a way to , uh, emphasize their phytoestrogen content. So these are some constituents in the plant, and these are found in a number of legume , uh, family , uh, uh, herbs. Right. Um, that can go into your body and bind to the estrogen receptor on a cell and trigger some of the same responses in that cell , uh, that it would, that it would engage in when your own naturally produced estrogen goes in and binds to it.
Speaker 1:The sum there, the , like emphasis on the word sum is because phytoestrogens are usually like beta estrogens, and then your endogenous estrogen can be either alpha or beta, and there it gets a little bit more complicated than that. And then exogenous estrogen, like what you get from plastic leaching or from like flame retardant chemicals and stuff like that, those tend to be alpha estrogens. And the, the different types of estro estrogen function a little differently in the body. Sometimes the beta estrogens will turn things off that alpha estrogen estrogens have turned on, and sometimes it isn't working that way. And so it's not just as simple as saying, well, this is an estrogen dominant cancer, and therefore I can never work with red clover regardless. I still wouldn't work with the leaves probably. But, but it just, there there is a lot of complexity there that is, is dependent on exactly what's going on in your particular situation.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. Yeah. Um, and like you say, you know, the, the concern is on several levels there, <laugh> , but I think the more important one , uh, is how's that person going to behave in regards to other , uh, medical recommendations? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> or , or , uh, interventions. Um, if they're going to hear this and they're gonna buy that product and believe that they've taken something just as good, or they've done something, you know, that's gonna be totally sufficient , uh, for their problem, that could be really, really off base there. Right . Um , and now maybe something progresses to be much worse, and we could've, we could've prevented that. You know,
Speaker 1:That part , that part is worth saying again, right. Like the, the, you think, oh, well, it's got phytoestrogen, so it's gonna take care of the problem, and this is all I'm gonna do. And then it did not take care of the problem because it wasn't acting the way that you thought it was gonna be acting. Right . And then it did , and then things progress, and now you're in a worse position than you were when you started. Yeah . Right.
Speaker 2:But I also wanna say that like, our worry here isn't solely focused on the fact that some tumors are estrogen responsive and the plant have spice or estrogens in it. And we're not like, oh, no, my major worry is that they're going to make their tumors six times worse. Yeah . <laugh> , you know, it's more the delay, it's more the, the diversion, you know, that can happen sometimes. Um, and this is why we take pains to emphasize that we're not against conventional interventions when they're necessary or when they're, when they're relevant. When they're appropriate.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 2:Um, and appropriate is context bound, you know, so Right. There's , there's a lot of nuance to all of that, but , um, uh, from, maybe from a more self-interested point of view, if you're an herbalist listening to all this, remember that the number one way to get in trouble is to do anything that qualifies as practicing medicine without a license. Right . Um , and , uh, now I want you to think about that, not just for what you recommend to people, but think about what the world is recommending to people. Think about what the world is suggesting to people, what TikTok is suggesting to people <laugh>. Um, and , uh, please
Speaker 1:Don't learn herbalism on TikTok <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, say like, all right, well, what are the consequences of that? And what can I do to help to ameliorate that?
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative>
Speaker 2:Might be just with people you talk to, might be just with whoever you can reach. Right? Right . Uh , but any, any one person that you can teach about the, the benefits of some more integration rather than siloing in either direction. Right. Siloing with my only natural stuff, or siloing with my only the peer reviewed, whatever. Right. Neither of those is actually the most efficient way. Right. Right.
Speaker 1:Like, don't turn your back on the tool that can help you if it can help you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't
Speaker 1:Grab for a tool just because it's there that isn't gonna help you, but don't turn your back on something that could help you. Yeah . And , and that goes in every direction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah . And so, you know, when we do think about the relevance that red clover has to stagnation patterns , uh, whether it's in the breast tissue or it's somewhere else in the body , um, for us, that's not about the phytoestrogens that's about these impacts on lymph flow. Right .
Speaker 1:Yeah . I really, I , I'm glad you said that. 'cause I wanted to come back to phytoestrogens and, and just be super clear that like , uh, that is such a small part of how this herb functions s small enough to even maybe kind of be a little negligible. Um, the, the lymphatic action is so much bigger. Even the mineral action is so much bigger. And I don't wanna SI don't wanna pretend like there's no phytoestrogens and they're not doing anything, but I just don't like, our, our culture really is like red clover phytoestrogens. Like it's, it's Right . And I just wanna be like, nah . Oh
Speaker 2:Yeah . These
Speaker 1:Other things are way more important. Yeah. Also in like some phytoestrogens here . Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And especially because we're coming at this from the perspective of like, our red clover is flowers, most of which you've gathered in the fields, <laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah . And
Speaker 2:That we're gonna put into our tea blends. Now, that is a different substance, that is a different object, that is a different agent from a capsule product made from the leaf designed to emphasize those, those specific constituents, right.
Speaker 1:Where it's like isolated and concentrated the phytoestrogen content that's totally different.
Speaker 2:So as far as we're concerned, there's red clover, the herb, right. Or even red clover blossom <laugh> . Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Right . The herb that we work with and have in our jar, and then there's these red clover derived phytoestrogen products. And those are different things.
Speaker 1:Yes. They're
Speaker 2:Just different things. Yeah .
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:This is true for a lot of herbs, by the way. <laugh>. Yes . But for some herbs it's a little more pronounced than others. Yeah .
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah . Like a milk thistle supplement versus milk thistle seed. Yeah. There's differences. Yeah. There's some concentration in the product, but basically it's still the same kind of thing. You know , it's
Speaker 1:Not as drastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah . Yeah . Right, right, right. Yeah . Yeah .
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, okay. But so lymphatic stuff , um, listen, your lymphatic system is like, okay, so our road where we live now is this like really small road that , um, doesn't have a lot of traffic, and one end of it is like, got washed out in a storm , uh, several years ago and just they haven't gotten around to fixing yet. Although I heard that maybe it's happening this fall. Um,
Speaker 2:I'll believe it when I drive over it. Yeah. <laugh> not before. I don't even know.
Speaker 1:Um, and so as a result , um, there has been like no maintenance on this road for the past, like almost five years. And, and it was already kind of deteriorating before that, like with a lot of potholes that had been like kinda sloppily patched and, and whatever. Um, this sounds like I'm dissing the DPW and I'm not there . Fantastic. But, okay , so <laugh> , um, so I go for a walk and you know, especially after a big rain or whatever, like, there's lots of places of the road now that have just been completely washed out and like driving over it is super treacherous, but they're kind of in a place where people don't drive very much. And, and by super washed out, I mean like really, truly super washed out. And so sometimes when I'm out for , for a walk, seriously, this is related to lymphatic function, I promise we're getting there. Yeah. Sometimes when I'm out for a walk, I'm just looking at the road and how like really impassible it has become, and then like you get to the part where the road is like totally washed out and it's like, okay, well that's still all the way impassable. Like , you really can't do anything there. And that is your lymphatic system, right? Like, if your lymphatic system isn't working, nothing's getting anywhere. There's just traffic jams everywhere. Supplies can't get where they need to go in your body. And I think that, you know, when we're in school, we learn a lot about the circulatory system and about blood vessels and blood, and we really don't learn very much about lymph. And , um, you know, like blood is like, you drove to the store. Lymph is like, you got all the stuff you needed and you came home again, <laugh> . And so if all you learn about is blood, you never came home <laugh>. Like you never, you didn't get the stuff, you didn't get home, you didn't do any of this . Like nothing. You just stayed there forever. Mm-Hmm . Like molding in the parking lot. I don't even know. Um, and so when we think about lymphatic function, there's a lot of factors involved. One is that we've got lymph nodes throughout the body. We will think about lymph nodes. They think about the part under your neck where , um, like your mom or your dad or whoever took care of you when you were a kid, like would feel, and if it was swollen, you didn't have to go to school. Right. Um, so, or I might be showing my age. Maybe they do that differently now. Um, and that's what we think of when we say lymph nodes, but they're everywhere in your body. There's like hubs of them, but they're all over the place and they are like a localized collection system kind of like , uh, you know, the town dump where like, it , they collect everything and then they drive it off to wherever it's gonna go. Well, if you can't drive it off to wherever it's gonna go, the trash just accumulates and accumulates and builds up and everything. So the first part when we're talking about lymphatic stimulation is making sure that the lymph nodes are emptying at an appropriate pace, but it's also just helping. Now listen, the lymphatic system doesn't have a pump. You need your muscles for that. But , uh, or manual lymphatic drainage also. Um, but there's still a lot that we can do to help keep the fluid from getting too congealed, keep everything like free flowing, right? So that it's the right consistency and it's easy to move through the vessels. Um, and we need to keep the vessels themselves healthy so that there's not a bunch of varicosities. A varicosity is just like a pouch that where some of the vessel , um, stretches out. Maybe it's around right where the valve is, and it just sort of pouches and then trash gets stuck there and never gets collected. And I don't know if you've ever been in the city in the summer next to a dumpster, especially a south facing dumpster, but it smells so bad. And so just imagine that, but inside your body, in your lymphatic vessels. Um, so keeping those vessels healthy is really important also. And red clover is playing a role in all of these tasks, <laugh> ? Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh , here's something that might help make that a little more compelling for you,
Speaker 1:<laugh> ,
Speaker 2:If it wasn't enough on its own. And if thinking about keeping your inner waters flowing freely , uh, isn't quite enough to get you onto the bandwagon , um, when lymphatic stagnation is occurring, you're also way more likely to get acne and , uh, cysts and boils and other
Speaker 1:Eczema.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Eczema, rashes, like other things like that. Or ,
Speaker 1:Or not, like, not eczema , but something like eczema, you know, like there's lots of things that are not eczema, but are like eczema , you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or even like, okay, I've got eczema, or it's a problem that recurs from me, but it's worse when things are getting stagnant.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2:Right . Um, so yeah, so skin issues, skin issues can often respond pretty well to red clover. And we don't think of that as like a whole separate thing. We don't say, oh yeah, it can move lymph , it can break up these kind of stagnant , um, you know, pockets, you know, inside the body. And then also it does this other thing on the skin. <laugh> , they're connected. <laugh> . Right ?
Speaker 1:They're connected.
Speaker 2:They're, they're, they're tied together because
Speaker 1:Now we're back to my washed out road, right? Like the skin is on the other side of the washed out part. And if you're not getting the supplies to the skin and gathering the trash away from the skin Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> because the road has been washed out, then your skin is gonna start to deteriorate. It's undernourished, it's gonna dry, it's gonna flake, it's gonna maybe crack, it's gonna rash, it's gonna all those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, if you can't take the trash out from the inside, your body will push the trash out through the outside. And that's pimples, <laugh> and boils and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely
Speaker 1:Not glamorous.
Speaker 2:Right. So, you know, this is one of these herbs where , uh, you can, you can be drinking it internally, but you can see these external effects. Yeah. And , uh, the nice thing is that it is, like you said before, it is gentle. It is goldilocks <laugh> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know , um, a red clover is an herb that you're not gonna need to worry about, like causing a big adverse event. You know, like, oh, this herb could be helpful, but if you take too much, it's gonna make you nauseous, or it's gonna make you have heartburn, or it's gonna make your your temples itch, or I don't know what
Speaker 1:<laugh> , you're gonna suddenly have tons of acne because you're dumping a bunch of whatever, you know, like that's not gonna
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. So that's not a concern , um, with red clover. And , um, and I think between that and the fact that it's like recognizable and really widespread and easy to harvest, <laugh> , <laugh> , uh, this is often , um, put out as like a beginner's herb . Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 1:<affirmative> , right ?
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 1:<affirmative> . Oh,
Speaker 2:You're brand new. Yeah . You can learn about dandelion and red clover and you won't hurt yourself
Speaker 1:And you will help yourself. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And , and that's all, that's all real and valid. Um , the but also don't ever let yourself think like, once I get good at herbalism, that's when I can do the real herbs. That's when I can get the strong herbs. That's not , I mean, that's not at least our style of herbalism
Speaker 1:What say no red clover is the strong Yeah. No , uh,
Speaker 2:There's, there's plenty of good things to be done with day one plants,
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Yeah. Listen, I am literally drinking red clover like every day right now for months and months and months. It is so important. Yeah . Um, but I do wanna say, since we're talking about it being really safe , um, there is a drug interaction here, and that is for somebody who's taking blood thinners. So , um, it , there can be some differentiation about the type of blood thinner and the exactly what's going on. You can get a little nitpicky there if you're, if you're really advanced. But , um, and so for that information checkout the herb drug interaction and herb safety course because there's a little complication there, but there are times when, when you still can maybe do that work with red clover. Yeah . But , um, if you're, if you're not at that level of practice, then just no red clover ever. If there are blood thinners in the mix, it doesn't matter what blood thinners, just say, oh, any blood thinners at all. Okay. No red clover.
Speaker 2:Yeah . That's like level one. Keep you safe. Yeah . Precautionary process. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah . When you get more advanced, then there can be a little more nuance, but
Speaker 2:Cool. Yeah. Like I said before, we , we prefer to take the red clover as t you know Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> the dried blossoms. Um, tinctures can be nice for red clover as well, but with tea you are getting that mineral provision. Right . And that isn't just about, you know, like a generalized nutrient effect , um, that can have to do with improvements in nerve health. And some people do feel a sort of nerving impact from our clover generally not on day one, but with, you know, continued intake of it. Um, we would argue that a decent amount of that is coming from the provision of minerals and the way that that's gonna improve literal function of your nerve cells. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 2:Know, they require a variety of minerals to work properly
Speaker 1:And then that combined with the lymphatic improvements so that you're, you're not just getting the minerals, you're also getting them where they need to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well I was even gonna say like, there's, there's a connection to the, the mineral content and the lymphatic movement. Like part of what allows your fluids to get into the right places , uh, and and move along in the body is that they're not just empty water. Mm .
Speaker 1:That
Speaker 2:They have the right type of electrolytes or the right balance of electrolytes to pass through this or that membrane in the body <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:Go in the right direction. Um, so yeah, mineral rich herbs often do have , uh, an impact on fluid balance, including lymph. Yeah . Uh , and red clover's no different. Okay.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:Well, let's talk about damiana then. And I think you'd been saying that the, the pear there, red clover with damiana has been a feature lately?
Speaker 1:Well, until I drank all the damiana, but I have more on order, so <laugh> Yeah . I'll be very excited when it gets here. Um, yeah, so, okay. Remember I was saying that Red Culver is kind of , um, like it has a lot of boob association, but , um, but I find it to be really helpful in a generalized way. Damiana has a lot of pelvic affinity and like lower body affinity. Not only that, there's other things going on too, but it has that, and so when you are working with red clover and you're like, yeah, but I really wanna work in like the lower half of my body , um, pairing it with an herb like Damiana is gonna help get that movement directed in the place that you want it to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um ,
Speaker 2:You could do Ocotillo if the two were doing like a tincture combo.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You could. Yeah . But
Speaker 2:For Tea damiana iss better. 'cause you can't really, or don't want to <laugh> make an ocotillo t
Speaker 1:No . That no, that , that wouldn't be, yeah . Yeah . No . Although if you were making tinctured, damiana and Ocotillo together would also be really good. That'd be kind of cool. That'd be nice too. Okay. Um, but, okay, so Damiana Damiana is another fluid moving stimulant here. A little more on the circulatory side, the blood side. Um, but, but really good at clearing blocks and stagnation , um, and a lot of affinity for the, the pelvic area. So I almost feel like Damiana is really appropriate for like anybody who has an office job and has to sit a lot Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> because that creates pelvic stagnation, like just sitting all day long. Um, everything's sort of folded in half and, or like in, you know, whatever. Uh, and uh , like your blood vessels are just bent all day and, and whatever, and you're not getting that movement and that just creates stagnation anytime that stuff just sort of slows down its flow. Um, that like, just like a garden hose when you bend it in half, like stuff is still going through, but it's going through slower.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1:There's
Speaker 2:Pressure on those points right there. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , right ?
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's , that's worth remembering , um, for a number of reasons. One of which is that like you can better understand what happens with , um, arteriosclerosis or atherosclerosis if you, if you understand that it's not that every single blood vessel in your body is like all accumulating the same degree of, of restriction or blockade all at the same time everywhere. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , right . There's points in your body, there's places in the body where that problem is happening and becoming acute. Um, and then others where things are mostly doing okay. And when we think about a posture analysis, and then we look and compare that to the places in the body where these problems tend to arise, we say, oh, look, they're at the places where you're keeping those blood vessels bent at this angle all the time.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Right.
Speaker 2:Uh, there's that pressure point on there and that's where your body responds and you get that cholesterol buildup or whatever inside.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And like, it don't think that means that you can never sit down. Like of course you can sit down and just like humans have been sitting down since before we were humans, but , um, it's just that when we get stuck in a, in a particular position for hours and hours , um, then there's no , uh, like refreshing of that flow. It's just everything is just slowed down to a trickle. That's why your leg falls asleep when you , when you sit with it bench . Right. It is literally exactly that.
Speaker 2:Hmm . Yeah. You know , lots of solutions there, including sit lots of ways. That's , that's how we do it a lot. You know , just
Speaker 1:Keep moving around.
Speaker 2:Uh , you know , if you have a , a more of a flat surface to be on, you don't always sit in the exact same posture. Right. You can do cross-legged, you can do two legs to one side. You can have legs out in a v-shape or whatever. Mm-Hmm . But you cycle through and that way you get a little bit of movement or it's like very, very slow motion yoga <laugh> <laugh> . Right . You go through a bunch of different postures as you, as you go along. So that's a very small intervention, but that can make, make a change. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> and
Speaker 2:Then, you know, movement alarms and, and movement breaks and all of that kind of thing. And, you know, we could go on and on, but, but if you do all of that and you have your dummy on it , <laugh>,
Speaker 1:Right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:Now we're really starting to talk right now. We're now we're getting holistic herbalism in there. We're incorporating the herb for its effects that are, that are gonna lay over the habit changes that we're making.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2:That's what we're up to.
Speaker 1:All right . So I wanna like take a 90 degree turn from this Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, <laugh> and talk about another reason that Damiana is so fantastic and that is its effect on the nervous system.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 1:Um, I find it to be super relaxing. Um, and hmm . Relaxing but not sedating. Like there is an energizing, an energizing <laugh> of , uh, of involved with damiana, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like if we are improving the flow of blood to all the nerves, they're gonna function better, but also they're gonna relax because they're not freaking out because they're not getting enough oxygen and all the other stuff that they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:So like , um, and I , you can think about that on the individual cellular level, but you can also think about that on the emotional health level. Like if you are feeling a lot of anxiousness because you don't know that you're gonna have what you need if you're feeling a lot of anxiousness because you don't have the support that is required, or if you can't relax and, and there's a lot of stagnation built up around you and no one is helping you to clear it away, like you're overwhelmed by your to-do list maybe , um, like all of those things are on the macro level, the whole body level, the same as what one individual nerve cell is experiencing when it's not getting enough circulatory flow in its region. Um, so hopefully you can kind of see the, the, like the micro and the macro there. Hmm . Um , because the thing is that our emotions like, like think of your body like a community, and all of the cells in your body are individuals and then they also make up little neighborhoods, like all the cells that are in your stomach make up like the stomach neighborhood and like whatever. Fine. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um , and so like the whole, the whole body is a community and if one part of your C community is not being served, then like, stuff in the community isn't gonna work. Well. Yeah . So, so yes. That's ,
Speaker 2:Yeah. This is a , this is a good way to think about like, where does our <laugh> , where does our experience come from? <laugh> , right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Like it's, we , we haven't gotten a total atlas of like, the brain and, and to be able to point at any individual brain and say like, ah, here's where the, the picture of a dog is. Whenever you think of dog Right. <laugh> , like that's not it. It's closer to saying there's like patterns of activity , uh, that are mostly similar when we try to, you know, internally speak the same words or, or imagine a picture or whatever. Um, and we can, we can identify some kind of pattern, but, but yeah. It's, it's not one cell acting alone, you know , like one cell per thought or <laugh> or anything like, like that, right . <laugh> . Right . It's these, these patterns of act activation and , and collaboration and that extends outside of your brain. Yeah . That extends down into your gut flora. Right. That extends through every cell of you.
Speaker 1:Um , right. It's the, it's it's the analyzing, but also the data that's coming in the communication back and forth, like between all the different groups. Yeah. All of that is what's building up your emotional state. Just exactly like in your community when like, some groups aren't communicating well with each other or , um, you know, some groups are actively mistreating other groups or whatever else. Like, then there's tension in your community.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 1:That's your body, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah . Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah. So , um, you know, damiana can improve these communications
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh , because of that increase in, in warmth, in, in flow in nourishment and leading into relaxation. Um, and so it can lead to those changes in your physiology and in your psychology. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> at the same time.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> ,
Speaker 2:Um, damiana has a strong reputation as an aphrodisiac
Speaker 1:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:And , um, as always, when an herb has that, that kind of attribute, it's not about pushing your hormones around or like spiking testosterone or something,
Speaker 1:Something
Speaker 2:Like that. Um, you know , uh, herbs with this reputation through, through time from ancient times up till now, they tend to be plants that bring in some livening effects , especially some blood moving impacts . And also help you to feel comfortable, right? Yeah . Relaxed, calm, friendly, <laugh>,
Speaker 1:<laugh> ,
Speaker 2:These are , yeah. You
Speaker 1:Know? Yeah .
Speaker 2:So , um, and, and you know, with damiana , one particular effect of it at one particular direction that it's gonna increase that kind of blood movement is upwards. And by that I mean like upwards to the layer of your skin, like from the deep part of your body up to your skin layer. Right. And that can be seen in, you know, the benefit of damiana when someone has a , a nerve , um, a tingling feeling or pain. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> or loss of sensation in the feet or in the hands or in other parts of your body. Take damiana for a while , get some more blood moving out, feed those nerves again. They start to wake up. Right. You're getting things back to where they should be. But you can think more broadly about like, oh, I bring, can call it vitality or life or energy. Mm-Hmm . Up to the skin, right? Okay. I am like, yes, my sensations, ah , I have them here,
Speaker 1:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:Hello my darling
Speaker 1:<laugh> . I'm feeling
Speaker 2:Kind of calm right now and in a comfortable way, and I know like I have
Speaker 1:And I have nerves and they're functioning, I
Speaker 2:Have nerves everywhere.
Speaker 1:They're not freaking out. <laugh> . Uh , they're very receptive. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1:Yeah .
Speaker 2:Okay. So aphrodisiac in that sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. It's not like, you know, you take some damiana tincture and all of your desired type of human will chase after you with their hair on fire. Like, oh , I have to be with you. Like, it's not
Speaker 2:Right .
Speaker 1:It's not that
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you know, we were talking earlier about , uh, about red clover and like coming up around and seeing these skin effects and, and with Damiana , it maybe has less of that reputation, but it's definitely an arm . I've , I've worked with and recommended to folks when the, when the skin troubles they were coping with had that component of cold. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 1:<affirmative> , that
Speaker 2:Component of depressed function of limited circulation. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative>.
Speaker 2:Right . Um, and sometimes you can be having dryness on the skin or rashes on the skin that won't really go away, or some skin problem it's taking forever to resolve and a little bit of an improvement in circulation can really be the thing that turns that around.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right . So I think we're gonna wrap it up there, but , um, as a little closing advertisement for you today, <laugh> , I actually, I wanted to point to our integumentary health course. That means skin health. Okay. Because both of these ares we looked at today, the red clover, the damiana , these are two plants that you can work with internally as like a tea or as a tincture or some other way to affect a positive change on your skin, right? Mm-Hmm . But the thing is that you always get faster results for a skin problem if you work from both directions. Yeah . <laugh> , right ? Yeah . Yeah . You come at it from the inside, you come at it from the outside. Um, so if you take this course, you're gonna learn about all different ways that lotions and salves and sprays and soaks and other topical herbal preparations can get your skin glowing
Speaker 1:Yes. And ,
Speaker 2:Uh , make you feel good. And
Speaker 1:Really not just like, okay, now my pimples are gone or whatever. But, but, you know, is there longstanding eczema? Is there psoriasis that we're trying to deal with? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Okay. Well, all the red clover in the world is all the damiana in the world are not gonna be enough alone to deal with psoriasis. Psoriasis is really like built in there, you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:But , uh, but that and a whole list of other strategies all together will make a huge difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. So the Pigmentary Health course, just like all of our online courses includes video lessons , uh, so that it's your herbal TV <laugh> , uh, there's mp threes of each of those lessons as well. So if you wanna , um, take 'em on a walk and learn as you go, you can do that. We've got PDF guides for you. We've got discussion threads right there integrated into every lesson. So if you are watching along, you have a question, you pop it right in, you get an answer within a day. Awesome. Uh , apart from that, there's a separate , uh, a student community that you'll get access to. And there you can chat with your peers and with us , uh, about what you're working on and what you're interested in. There's a weekly q and a sessions, twice weekly q and a sessions. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 1:Uh ,
Speaker 2:Live with us. So you can ask your questions that way too. And all of this you get with lifetime access. Um, you're not on the clock to try to complete everything in a month or, or whatever. You, you get this for , uh, as long as the internet exists and <laugh>
Speaker 1:And every time we make updates, right . Uh, then they magically are added to your account for free. You don't have to do anything. You just get all the new material , uh, forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's
Speaker 2:How we do it. Yeah . So , uh, you can find that course and all of our courses@online.commonwealthhers.com. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Okay. Well that's it for today. We'll be back sometime with some more holistic herbalism podcast for you. Uh, until then, take care of yourselves. Take care of each other, drink some tea,
Speaker 1:Drink some tea,
Speaker 2:And flow those fluids,
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Yes. I never
Speaker 4:Know what the last part is gonna be. It's always like a surprise. <laugh> <laugh> .
Speaker 5:Bye everybody. Bye-Bye.