The Gift of Goodbye: Spiritual Lessons from a Dying Friend on Love, Life, and Letting Go

In this powerful episode, I sit down with my terminally ill friend Jerome for a raw, spiritual exploration of facing mortality. Together, we share profound insights on how a terminal diagnosis reshapes one's view of the world, relationships, and spiritual expansion. You'll also find heartfelt guidance on having meaningful conversations with dying loved ones, emphasizing love, letting go, and finding beauty in life's final chapters.

SHOW NOTES:

Quotes: 

On Being Present 

"Presence is as a result of putting yourself in a position to accept it. It's not a place one can force oneself to be, because if I'm forcing anything at all, then it's impossible to be present." -Jerome Beauchamp 

One Thing Dying Taught Me

"We should all be treated like we're living with a terminal diagnosis. Everyone has a terminal diagnosis, in one sense or another."  - Jerome Beauchamp

On Finding Peace Through Acceptance and Simplifying Life

"Is there really something that I have to do in this moment or in this day or before I pass away? And I realize the natural consequences will prevail resulting in more peace of mind and more calmness. There's an extraordinary amount of acceptance and surrender involved." — Jerome Beauchamp

On How to Have Meaningful Conversations with Someone Who is Terminally Ill

"The best thing for me would be for someone to ask me if I'm interested in talking about it... and to actually discuss it like really seriously have a dialogue. Don't have one of those discussions that you ask me something and I say something and then you make it about you... But to actually be inquisitive about what's going on for that person." — Jerome Beauchamp 

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Transcript

Conversation Transcript

S. Jerome, thanks for being here. 

J. It's my pleasure. 

S. I appreciate it. In the last several months, really the last couple of years, we've had some really big conversations, ones that I've never had before with anybody and it occurred to me that these are conversations that everyone should have, you know, and probably the sooner in their life, the better. And so, I asked you to come and talk with me about the journey that you're on and some of the aspects of that.

So, with that, we're gonna kind of jump into some really sensitive topics and again, before we get any further with this, I just really want to say how much I appreciate this conversation for many reasons. 

J. You're welcome. It's nice to be here. I'll do my best to be articulate and keep my mind clear if I can. S. Okay. We'll pause if we need to. 

J. Okay. 

S. So, the topic we're talking about today is the topic of the death and dying process, the end of life process and uh specifically terminal illness, what it's like having a terminal illness, how this changes the way you see the world and perhaps we'll get into how to talk with somebody who has a terminal illness because I think this is something that many of us struggle with when we have someone in our life who's terminally ill. So, to jump into this, Jerome, what I want to do is have you tell us a little bit about your condition.

How long you've known about it and kind of where you are today. 

J. Yeah, so now I'm I'll be 62 years old next month. I guess the symptoms of this started showing up about six years ago in the form of a minor tremor and some staring gaze of sorts. So, it was originally thought to be early on sense of Parkinson's. But then over the course of the next couple of years, different doctors, neurologists have determined that it's called PSP.  Which is progressive supranuclear palsy. It's an atypical Parkinson's. So although the symptoms, think the reason they call it that is because it encompasses all the symptoms of Parkinson's. But then there's a whole other layer of condition on top of that. And I think mine has to do with the deterioration of the autonomic nervous system in addition to the motor system that Parkinson's normally encompasses. 

S. What are some of the symptoms that have been..

J. Yeah, the first you had the shaking was one of the most obvious ones I understand. 

S. What other symptoms came along as time has progressed over, has it been six years now? 

J. Yeah, it's been about six years. But a lot of it has to do with, I think they call bradykinesia, which is the freezing gait. So when I'm walking from time to time, I won't be able to start a step. And it also affects the balance. I'm finding that I fall around corners and I fall in certain directions.

To initiate my movement in that direction because my legs won't start like normal. And also it has to do with talking, my voice is becoming more slight. I think that has to do with an effect on the vocal cords. My swallowing is becoming more labored. Again, all these things have to do with the brain not forgetting, but not being able to send the message to the body as to what to do. And that shows up as a slow declination of effectiveness of those particular systems. So it also affects urination and defecation for the muscles in my colon and the muscles in my ureter, I guess, don't work quite properly. So the different disruptions occur in those areas as well. So I'm noticing that kind of across the board, there's a, I guess, a deterioration in the effectiveness of the function. And right now I'm trying, I shake quite a bit when I try to think so.

If hear a lot of trembling in the background, that's probably me shaking. It's kind like a dog wagging its tail. 

S. Yeah, I noticed when we started talking that the tremor has got a little bit stronger. 

J. So, the more you're using your brain, the more likely you are to have tremors sneak up on you. Yeah, it's a pretty interesting phenomena. It's when I sleep or when I'm in a near sleep state like in deep meditation, I won't tremble. But as soon as I start doing something that requires some type of motor function, then I start trembling and depending on what it is I'm doing, the tremor can become quite violent, aggressive, depending on what you want to call it. So to the point that I can't really function, so I have to kind of calm down again in the midst of thinking. And that happens when I think about something good, bad or indifferent, it really doesn't matter. As long as I exercise the function of the brain, the energy that gets distributed through the body is enormous. I mean, it's actually overwhelming. Someone wouldn't sense that normally.

 But that seems to be something that I have the ability to do now. 

S. I remember about a year ago, you went for a month long or 10 day long meditation retreat. 

J. Yeah, that was a Vipassana meditation retreat, 10 days. 

S. I remember one of the things you said when you got back was that that's when you would, I think, first noticed that you would stop trembling when you were meditating. And I said, oh, you overcame it. And what you said was, no, no, no, I backed away from it, or I sunk below it, I think is how you put it. 

J. Yeah, it's interesting because one needs to eliminate the friction or eliminate the inertia of the thought or the feeling or the movement and if one can do that then that allows the body to relax. So, it's not a matter of overcoming or forcing anything at all, it's the exact opposite of allowing things just to be as they are and not give them any meaning whatsoever. Not meaning intellectually but meaning physiologically. I can do that. So, it's kind of a catch-22 for me to escape the effects of the tremors and a lot of the symptoms. I need to be doing nothing at all and being very, very calm. 

S. It's almost like the definition of surrender. 

J. In life form. Yeah, one of the things that I find is that in my perception of the world now in life, it's the nuances that really show up as being the main current. What I thought might have been coincidental or what I thought might have been a nuanced essence of something.  Oftentimes turns out to be the meat of the matter and over all those years. I've been missing the whole point 

S. This is an interesting analogy for life, isn't it? 

J. Could be.

S. So you have a general sense of what that sort of the long term? What's the right term for? uh.. life expectancy on this is they told you between X amount of years. How long is that generally? 

J. Yeah, so they have different ranges but from what I understand it's going to be somewhere between five to nine to six to ten years type of thing. And so you're... I'm six years into a nine-year process perhaps. Okay. Or six years into a five-year process which makes it a little more interesting. Sometimes the symptoms seem like they're progressing more quickly than I'd like but that just may be a sense of anxiety or fear creeping in there in a worst-case scenario.

...But the thing that grabs you, the thing that comes out and gets you is when you lose the ability to swallow. Losing the ability to swallow seems to be the most preeminent one because that would require some significant medical intervention in order to stop the progress of that. I think that the reason, the actual thing that causes death most often is pneumonia actually because as you lose your ability to swallow, evidently asphyxiation becomes a very high probability. that I can tell already that on a daily basis I choke a number of times. They're not violent, but I can still notice them. So it's kind of like, wonder, hmm, I wonder what the indicator of that is. 

S. So there's sort of a bit of grim mathematics going on in your head probably. 

J. Like all the time. Luckily I don't ruminate on it, but I contemplate it. It keeps reminding me that something's going on.

S. I mean, I suppose your body shaking all the time would be a constant reminder. 

J. That's a pretty good one. 

S. Yeah. That's I think to most people, you know, if we all know we're mortal, you know, we all know that we're only here for a while. But I think that my projection is that if I had some sort of sense that it was a matter of months, weeks or years, I could imagine that would oh affect sort of your mental journey in terms of the way you value your days? 

J. I believe it does. I believe it does. 

S. I guess the question is how does that? How does, you know, the knowledge of or the sort of grim mathematics as I put it, uh influence the way you look at your days? 

J. What it's done, I guess this is an interesting topic. I haven't really thought about it in that term before but I can say what happens is I kind of get down to what is - as opposed to what I think is. So my mind doesn't tend to wander away from what needs to be done or what wants to be done in that particular day. I don't daydream so much necessarily around things that are irrelevant or non-existent. I tend not to make up as many stories. Interestingly, I tend to have less fear and less anxiety because I don't make up stories about what might happen or regret what happened in the past. Thankfully, I've been sober now for six years and went through the 12-step program a while ago and was able to really address many of the things associated with alcoholism at that point in time, which gave me the opportunity to, in a sense, to some degree, clean up the slate, right? To go through the amends process, to go through the inventory process, to become much more aware and conscious of what I'm doing and how it affects myself and other people.

So, I guess coincidentally, it's kind of odd that I went through that process when these symptoms started. And over the last six years, I've been able to lead a life that's a bit more intentional and conscious than it was in the past. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the amount of time I used to worry a lot, I used to be fearful and have anxiety and I think that's been eradicated, might be a strong word, but we'll just say it's been eradicated from a vast majority of my consciousness and my being.

 ...And that kind allows me to settle into nothingness in a way. So the way my thought process goes during the day is I meditate twice a day anywhere from a half an hour to an hour in the morning and at night. And that allows me to start the day and end the day in a level amount of acceptance and nothingness, just sensing the sensations in my body and not giving them any judgment. Doing my best not to give them judgment, not to give them energy one way or the other, good bad.

 ..So that's allowed me, I believe, to, throughout my day, take a more objective look at what's going on. Not necessarily remove the life out of it, but remove the judgment and the consequences of the judgment so that my reactions are more measured and more intentional. And I think what that does in life in total is to make life being more measured and intentional, less volatile, less reactive.

..That's probably the magic of this whole process is that I tend not to make up too many stories anymore. Certainly stories that would have been grim or exciting on the one hand or scary on the other hand. So, this idea of regret and fear, fear being in the future and regret being in the past, the volume of those two emotions has gone down extraordinarily in my life. So, I'm a bit more at ease.

...It's kind of really ironic as I think about it because I'm not at ease at all physiologically. I can feel my body shaking pretty violently right now but my mind is pretty much at ease. 

S. Do you attribute that finding balance that being present more to the meditation or the condition or a combination of the two? 

J. I would imagine it must be a combination. I think the meditation has a significant amount towards it.

J. ...Let's keep in mind, one of the reasons why I went to the meditation retreat was because I knew what the diagnosis was. So I had already been diagnosed with a terminal illness and the whole idea of going to a meditation retreat was brought up by one of my daughters. And it turns out that instead of my wife going or my daughter going, I ended up going to the meditation retreat. And I felt it was a good thing because I knew that I'd be up for a challenge. And I figured it was time for me to learn some more intricacies around the idea of meditation.

J. . ..Although I've tried it off and on over the years, I've never seriously considered it. And this particular type of meditation is geared to eliminating human suffering, eliminating personal suffering. So my ability or my reality of being more calm as a result of the meditation is such, but it adds a certain... the Terminal Diagnosis adds a certain amount of, shall we say, reality or intention to the matter.

J. . ..because it is kind of a life or death situation. I'd hate to go through the next months or year or two in the midst of mental agony, made up stuff that I make up. So the idea of virtually eliminating the made up bullshit that rattles my brain and rattles my nerves and consciousness seemed like a pretty proper place to go. I think that might be paying off. 

S. So there's a certain amount of acceptance that's gone into getting where you're at, of looking at the situation and telling yourself this is what it is and this is the reality of it and I can fight it or not fight it? Is that what you're saying? 

J. I'm in the midst of that. I think it's something that I don't know how it works for other people but for me, uh it's a journey. I know that's a colloquialism but... 

S. That's a beautiful one though. 

J. uh It's one of these other life lessons. Things take time. Normally, things take time to learn how to do and to master. It takes practice and perseverance.

J. So, what I'm looking forward to is just continuing to practice and not hoping so much as just putting the time and effort into working on something and hopefully the natural consequences will prevail resulting in more peace of mind and more calmness. There's an extraordinary amount of acceptance and surrender involved. 

S. To get to surrender, that seems like it would be a tremendous journey to get to where you're at no matter what we call that because I see you moving through the world with a tremendous amount of grace. 

J. Yeah, being graceful isn't something that I think people would have given me the title of or given me the personality of being graceful. But over the last six to 10 or 15 years, things have been settling, certainly in the last six years since I made a conscious decision on the better part of 20 years ago to change the person I was. It takes a long time. So, I've been at it for about 20 years, but certainly in the last four or five years and in the midst of this diagnosis.

J. It's so interesting thing. I tend to be more grateful and I tend to be more happy or joyful or have more gratitude, which tends to ease the conscience and that tends to ease the physiology and that tends to ease the whole beingness. And I feel privileged, I guess, or honored or I feel fortunate to be able to have that disposition in the midst of all this because I can imagine

J. ...that having the disposition of being a victim or having this be horrible and having this be anger producing and frustration producing and angst and these types of emotions, it could be a very different reality. I don't think grace moves very well with those types of emotions. I don't know if it's as a result of the work that I've done or if there's some other universal essence that somehow has bestowed upon me the privilege and the ability to do it this particular way. But regardless of what it is, I'm pleased and feel privileged and blessed to be able to be approaching it at this point in time this manner. 

S. Well, this brings up a really good question I hadn't considered. Say someone's listening who has a terminal diagnosis, you know, that notice that time is short. What advice could you give them that might help them find more balance with them, you know, versus perhaps railing against uh the fate of it? 

J. Yeah, I don't know if I'm here to give advice so much as to portray what it is for me that's going on. Yeah, what I tend to go back to is this idea of not idea but the reality of nothingness. Is there really something that I have to do in this moment or in this day or before I pass away? And I tend to wake up when I wake up in the middle of the night and I start ruminating which thankfully doesn't happen very often but when I do, it tends to be on all the things that I must do.

J. I must talk to this person, I must write this letter, I must send this email, I must communicate with these people, I must do this task or finish this administrative responsibility. And I end up waking up kind of in a frenzy. But when I become fully conscious and aware, I realize that there's nothing that I need to do. And what I think about sometimes is what happens if I were just hit by a car and then dead the next minute because I have the opportunity or privilege or the burden, if you want to look at that, of knowing that I'm going to pass away sometime in the relative and near future. What difference would it make, right? Why would I make up all these things that I have to do if death is at the doorway right now? I can say I don't have to do anything. Now, one of the reasons I think that I have the blessing to go there is that I've spent the last year and a half preparing. So, when people say, your affairs in order, that takes a long time.

J. ...And in today's world with all the digital type of things and all the technological types of relationships to be able to kind of not only quantify those, but to write them down and get all the bank accounts and investment accounts and communication dynamics and email relationships and bills and all the things down in order to be able to transfer to someone else to be responsible for. That's taken the better part of two years, but I've been told by different people that I'm consulting with or that are mentoring me along the process that I've done a pretty good job with that.

J. . ..meaning that for all intents and purposes, I'm ready to go. So knowing that has given me another level of ease, if you will, around this idea of needing to do anything at all. So I guess I would say, so if someone's out there that's recently received the terminal diagnosis, that what worked for me was taking it seriously and not denying it, but immediately going to what's the shortest amount of time that I have. And when I realized that I realized four years ago, when the diagnosis actually came, it was two years ago. So when two years ago, I thought that five years might be my lifespan. I figured that I needed to get down to business when it came to educating my wife on all the things that I did in the relationship for 35 years. That's taken a while. You see, these are skills and habits and management ability that doesn't just happen overnight. You can't just give someone a piece of paper and expect them to understand the dynamics of the family finances, if you will, if they've never been deeply involved in it. So by virtue of spending a considerable amount of time and a lot of lists and a lot of support around what needs to be done around the business of dying, it's really opened up the opportunity for me to be in the reality of nothingness. So when I get tied up and I get frantic about what needs to be done, it normally doesn't take me more than a few minutes to realize, okay, you're making up a bunch of stories about the importance of things that don't exist that I'm making up in my own mind and that allows me to relax. And I can go back to being, simply being what's going, being with what's happening in the moment, free of making up all these things that need to be done. And that ends up allowing the whole physiology, my body to ease, my mind to ease. And with that, there's a ripple effect with all the easing... ultimately becomes calm and once the calm kicks in, relaxation and once the relaxation kicks in, then everything seems to be perfect in the moment. That happens a couple times every day. So, I just want to add something about this idea of pragmatism versus faith and hope. I don't know that the way I'm doing it is any better or worse or different than anybody else, but I've witnessed to some extent other people in the midst of significant challenges that may lead to their demise. And at times I see people from my perspective maybe in some type of denial or some type of delusion as to what the reality is going to be and not give it the accord or the importance that it needs to be given. So, I don't think, I think brushing it under the rug so to speak and avoiding the dynamic would lead to more angst and all personally misery for me.

J. So, the approach that I've taken is to get a couple of mentors that are practical thinkers, that are project managers of sorts, to say list everything that you think I should do in order to prepare myself for death and let's put it in lists and let's complete those lists. Let's check off every single box and I would say of the 70 boxes that needed to be checked, probably 65 of them are checked right now. There might be a couple of five that are more elusive or that need some fine tuning.

J. But for intents and purposes, I've done what administratively needs to be done. Is there anything on there that's more on the spiritual side or is it more sort of that details? That's interesting that you question that you ask because I don't really think there are any spiritual boxes like you need to get your mindset in order you need to. I think because that's more personal, it's not the legacy that I'm going to leave with someone else. I think what I'm talking about is all the things that need to be done.

J. ...that someone else is going to take on the responsibility for or that need to be done in the preparation of the dying process itself. But you bring up a good point. I think that if you want to add another 10 or 15 boxes of spiritual growth and spiritual pursuits, that could certainly be on the list as well because that takes up a significant amount of my time now. 

S. Yeah, I've noticed that some of your reading has changed and some of your choices in books has uh expanded to include some more spiritual topics.

J. Yeah, that I go to. I go both ends of the spectrum on that. I read novels that are just simply made up mysteries or slight adventure novels. I guess that would be fictional concepts. 

S. Yeah. 

J. And then there's other ones that are I've definitely taken up a few books that are like what happens if you only have one year to live? What is it? The disposition or the mindset or the things that need to be done? And then I've used to read a lot of history. I'm reading less history because I go through these different phases. How much of what I should be learning now really makes a difference. It really needs to be substantive. Like how is it going to serve me in the future? And I think, there is no future. So why do I need to do this? I'm less and less am I enjoying technical type of things, things that require a lot of brain power to remember and to learn. So when I read a book now, I can read a book and be enjoying, enjoy the moment and reading it, but not have to, not have to think that I need to remember what I read the next day.

J. When someone says, I have a great book I think you'll like. If it's not a, I'm not going to be reading technical books, but if it's a book that they had enjoyment in reading, I'll take it and try to read part of it see how it works. And if it works, it works. Then halfway through it, I'll think, why am I wasting my time reading this book? It doesn't make any difference at all. And the next thought will be, oh, you don't need to worry about that. Just do what you're doing. And if you're enjoying it, do it. If you're not enjoying it, don't do it. 

S. Your priorities have shifted. In a sense, for sure.

J. Yeah. I don't spend much time doing things that are irrelevant or erroneous. Now, given that, being pleased and content and in a matter of gratitude is not irrelevant. So, if I'm doing something or reading something that's bringing me humility and gratitude and appreciation, then I think that that's relevant place to go because that ends up directly affecting my disposition. And if my disposition can be calm and peaceful and humble and grateful, then that has a direct impact on how I am in the world and how I am to myself. The life equation is simplified. Very much so. 

S. I couldn't help but notice when you were talking about sort of how you created a list, things to get done, that's so you. I mean, I think that that's a lot of guys too for that matter, know, probably plenty of women as well, but you know, guys were such... we're so regimented in a way that I think it's normal. The thing that came to mind was that I think that if I were to make a list and start checking it off, it would give me a sense of having some power over what's happening. At least I'm doing something, you know, like that doing something thing that is easy to fall into for me at least. Do you think that had some effect, some positive effect because it gave you something to do?

J. Well, first of all, I actually think that women are probably a lot better list keepers and project managers. 

S. I have to agree. 

J. Yeah. think that maybe stereotypically men have been given that moniker. But the reason I say that is my sister is the one who's helping me with the lists and my wife is the one who's helping me make sure the lists get done. It sounds like a positive distraction, though, from what's going on. know, have list of things to achieve to get done. Yeah, it hasn't been that at all. It hasn't been a positive thing.

It started out as being a bit onerous because we spent the time kind of coming up with a comprehensive list to begin with. We consulted some websites and looked at lists of things to do. And I was like, oh boy, there's a lot of information that needs to be gathered. Being diligent in that fact wasn't necessarily giving me peace of mind, but I was practically achieving what I needed to achieve in order to make other people's lives easier when the time came for me to go. Because it's not

I guess when you get right down to it, these things aren't for me because I'm going to be gone. So it's interesting the things that aren't on the list, spiritual pursuits and the emotional balancing wasn't even on the list of to-do's. But that's those things will allow me to have a more graceful and pleasant existence in the remaining years, hopefully years, but perhaps months. 

S. You made a really good point earlier about you could get hit by a bus, but you know... you're not getting hit by a bus. If so, it's a very slow moving one. It sounds like if you were to choose one or the other where you don't get any warning and it's just over or, you know, going out slowly, would you say this is better or worse? 

B. Well, that's a good question. But that's one of the questions that I don't need to spend any time on because I don't know the answer to that, whether it be better or worse. All I know is the situation I'm in is giving rise to some choices that I can make as to how I go about things.

So I don't spend too much time imagining what ifs. What I found over life is the things that I think is going to happen normally don't happen the way I think they're going to happen. So I've given up thinking about things that might happen. 

S. Yeah, it's one of those things that plays on my mind because theoretically I would want some heads up. had terminal ill family members and friends, know, and getting that long goodbye, however long that happens to be. the one benefit of my mother getting a cancer diagnosis was I had six months to say goodbye versus if she'd been there and then suddenly not been there. Then I flipped that and I think about myself being on the other side of that. I think that there's some benefit to me thinking that uh I could just go out tomorrow in a car accident and I drive to work. I don't know. We never know when our moment's going to be. So, in a way, there is some sort of benefit in my mind of having at least some sort of heads up. I guess we all do have a heads up. We just don't have the short heads up. You have the, 'could happen any time' heads up. 

J. Yeah. No, as far as what I would prefer one way or the other, I would just put a shout out to everybody out there that's more than 10 years old or maybe old enough to know the difference. Maybe that might be 20 years old. To always have a list of things that someone else will need to deal with if you pass and to have that updated, certainly for older folks that are nearing the last stages of life, just to take the time to ease the conscience and to ease the burden on someone else because if you don't do any planning, it's certainly going to be a very hectic situation for those that you leave behind. But what I found by taking care of most of those things, if not all of those things, and making them known to the people that are going to be responsible for managing things after I go, it brings a measurable, if not extraordinary amount of peace and tranquility to the process because my.. the amount of noise out there with things that I must get done has seriously diminished. So I would think that just by saying it in that terms to go immediately unprepared might be better for the person who went because they get to avoid the mental dynamics of thinking about it. But it certainly creates a significant amount of effort. It's not necessary for those that are left behind.

S. You know, we touched a little bit on the spiritual aspect of this. How do you feel about diving into that a little? 

J. I'll do the best I can. 

S. Tell me how this journey has sort of influenced the way you think in terms of spiritual topics, know, the what happens after, your previous religious upbringing, any thoughts about the soul? 

J. Yeah, I don't want to sound as though I really know any of these things because my understanding is that spirituality and religion and afterlife are all things that nobody knows.

S. Yeah. 

J. Nobody can know, nobody will know, nobody does know, but there's a whole lot of people that are making a lot of stuff up. Not in a bad way, but in a way to organize the world. I mean, I think the spiritual dynamics of the world are very significant. Subject matters and topics and influence virtually everybody on the planet. So, there ought to be some order to it. But for me personally, I'm moving in the way of believing in all of it. Believing that all of it can exist, whether it does or not is not a question that I need to answer. 

S. And when you say all of it..?

J. Everything about the soul, everything about the afterlife, everything about what happens upon death, everything about spirituality, religion, faith, these ephemeral or intangible dynamics of life that I used to poo poo. I used to maybe have all kinds of opinions one way or the other that were black and white or this and that, this is true and that's true and I'll give that up to youthful exuberance or ignorance. Now, I realize there's no point in me debating any of it. There's no point in me really questioning any of it. This is for me naturally, not for anybody else. But the idea of accepting all of it just feels to be a much more appropriate place for me to be because I don't...

I think there might be groups of people that think of things that are just wrong or bad or unethical or immoral or not good for the human species. So, I'm not talking about those types of dynamics but the dynamics of people developing and following and mastering religions that are meant to keep order amongst what could be chaotic. Yeah, if you want to be a Buddhist, be a Buddhist. If Hindu or Muslim or Catholic or Protestant or Jewish.

Not only do I believe in it all, but I accept it all as being prevalent for anybody and everybody that lives. Now, as far as the afterlife goes and the soul, you and I have had this conversation before about what is the soul and I've listened to many of your podcasts and you went, and one of them you went back thousands or tens of thousands of years back to the hieroglyphics that somehow maybe had reference to the soul of the person or the being.

S. That's the first eight episodes if you're listening and want to check that out. 

J. And I think that when you first started doing it, I pooh-poohed the whole idea of the soul making thinking that it was another thing that's been completely made up. But as I listened to more of your podcasts, I came to the realization of who am I and why am I or what do I have anything to do with whether it's real or not. That was kind of the first thing I came to. And the next thing I came to was, okay, there is a soul. Where is my soul in this whole process and what can I do to influence the health of my soul along the way? So I think that's what's led to my position on not being defiant or determinant as to any particular belief or faith, but to being accepting. Now, when we get into that level of acceptance, I must say that I'm probably following more Buddhist practices or things that would be attributed to the Buddha. Certainly around the meditative practices that I do, but the eightfold path and what I'm learning about just leading a right path in life. I was raised in the Catholic faith. I actually went to church the other day with my 99-year-old mother and that brought back a lot of memories, but they were different. When I was younger, I used to scrutinize and criticize and be critical of the elements of Catholicism because of all the different inquisitions and all the mayhem and death that's occurred under the name of a god here and there doesn't really sit well with me. But I find that when I go to different celebrations or masses or religious gatherings now, I can kind of look around and accept the reason why the people are there for positive reasons and for community reasons and I can't deny the fact that religion is a wonderful way to develop and nurture community. So, if anything, as a result of I don't know if it's as a result of the terminal diagnosis or me just becoming more mature in my age but I'm far more accepting of different belief systems and a bit more discerning about jumping from one to another and just kind of staying with what feels right and is achievable for me. Do you think there was a turning point and maybe this is something that's hard to pin down but that's a big shift. That's a big shift to you know, get to where you're at now. It sounds like if my projection is that that's giving you a certain amount of peace. 

S. Yeah.

J. Any opinion or any belief that I have or had that may cause angst or division or strife or anger or resentment or fear, I tend not to give energy to that. It's a good recipe for all of us. Yeah, I think before I was an antagonizer, I used to stir the mud, I used to enjoy getting things stirred up and I think that had more to do with my own personal deficiencies or being not enough or needing to be a show-off or needing to get attention, all these types of needs. But now as I move into the realm of not needing most anything, I would say the thing I need now is camaraderie and companionship and human interaction on a gentle sense. But now that I don't feel like I need to prove anything, that's allowed all these other things to wash away, which gives rise to the reason, the belief that the things that I used to do that were more controversial, as a result of other deficiencies in my mental being or in my life, I needed to make up for. 

S. I think that's all of us. I talk about the journey all the time on here and on the video channel. I love to think of life as a journey and a personal evolution that happens during that time. If we're doing our work, we're hopefully getting more peaceful, getting more at ease dropping some of the stuff that we drag around that's attached to ego and all those things for doing the work, you know. It sounds like you got the accelerated plan. But you've also been doing your work for many years. I've known you most of 10 years and I know you've been working on it even longer than that. You've always been a pretty at ease guy since I've known you. 

J. Yeah, and that wasn't always the case. So you tell me, yeah. taken quite some time to turn that corner. It was a big tanker moving slowly, took a while to turn it around. But it certainly feels good to be on this side of that maneuver for sure. Yeah, I used to wonder if I'd ever be able to become a decent person given all of the different character flaws that I was carrying around with me. 

S. That's a good lesson. You know, it's a heck of a mouthful and I just wanted to look at that for a second. Though it's not specifically related to the topic we're talking about, there's something beautiful about recognizing you know, our own stuff. And it sounds like you had a moment where you're like, no, this isn't who I want to be. You know, and there's so much value in recognizing, like I've recognized so much of my own stuff. Just seeing my own crap and going, I'm not good with this. This doesn't feel right in me. Something's got to change. And then figuring out, how do I change this? And you know, we don't do it in leaps. We do it in small, small pieces. We just change our trajectory. And like you say, with that, a big tanker.

S. Did you make that slow turn and you you finally get the direction you should, you want to be going. 

J. Right. 

S. You know, that's a darn good life lesson. 

J. I would like to mention something about the soul, because this is the soul podcast. What I've done in that regard is listen, I listen more to other people that I believe have more vested interests and more experience around items of the soul. I've listened to many of your podcasts as well.

I normally binge through your podcasts. I'll listen to five, six, eight, ten of them over the course of a day or two and then I'll take a break for several months and then listen to a bunch of them. So, it comes in large doses. But that's another whole concept that I didn't spend really any time thinking about in any real terms. But with the most current chain of events, it's given me rise to say, okay, what do I have an opinion or perspective on that? And that's another one that I'd like to say yes, there is a soul.

What's going to happen with my soul, how is my soul going to interrelate with others. And it's given me an opportunity to take a look at how I move in life and what I think I can do now in this life to nurture my soul's essence, if that's what it is, and just have it be, I've heard the word grace mentioned many times, but have it be filled with grace and not filled with angst and not have it be a troubled soul or a soul that's filled with fear. I don't know if the soul is the thing in the essence of the human that carries these types of things. This is getting to the things that I don't know, so I don't really try to think about them too much. But the thought that I have put into it goes back to that common denominator of being humble and graceful and grateful, kind and considerate and compassionate. And if I don't know what those things mean, I'll endeavor to try to learn what they mean and practice them as best I can without having too many goals because I don't want to necessarily create things that I need to do. But these are things that want to be done and they're just naturally want to be done. So it's a good thing. So I believe that there is a soul. I do have a soul and if I have a soul, how can I prepare it? And that actually gets into some of the end of life preparations in earnest. What happens upon death? What do you do with the body and how do you allow it to progress to the next echelon, whatever that is? And I know that there are very specific beliefs all over all types of religions and tribal historical references over centuries and millennia, right? So I've been consulting people with how that how best to have my body and my soul transition into the next phase of beingness. These are things that I actually do think about and make some plans around. It is a big topic. 

S. Are you aware of the Tibetan Book of the Dead? 

J. I'm aware of it, but I haven't really read it. 

S. It's an interesting concept, because what happens is in Tibet when someone dies, they sit with the dead, I think it's for seven days, and they read the book to them. And the book is designed to help them because they believe that the spirit lingers for a while. And so it helps them, give them instructions on, you know, how to move on, you know, and all the things. It's a fascinating concept. But again, so you mentioned that, you know, when thinking about the soul, you try not to think about it too much.

And because you don't know that much about it, that's exactly the reason I think about it so much (laughs) because I don't know. The less I know about it, the more fascinating it is. And you know, if it's something I know about, I don't want to linger on it too much. You know, okay, spaghetti, I got that dialed in. I'm not going to think about spaghetti too much, but the soul, I might just start a podcast. 

J. Yeah, there's an endless amount of subject matter in that realm for sure. 

S. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so that's a big change, you know, going from that kind of is non-believer too strong to somebody who's now has a very solid belief that the soul is something.

J. I was agnostic towards many things. Not that I did not believe in it, but I did not. I didn't believe in it either. So, I was kind of in the middle realm. But yeah, just, people would ask me, what do I believe in? And I was thinking, well, I don't necessarily know what I believe in. And then I went from that to saying, well, I'll accept all of it as possibilities and then move with different exposure to different elements of it when it comes along. 

S. Nearly everybody at one point or another who's an adult has had to say goodbye to somebody in their life and sometimes we have a heads up and sometimes we don't. But I think one of the regrets in my youth when my mother was terminally ill and I was 23 is that I just didn't know how to talk to her. I didn't know how to talk to her about what was going on and you know what she was going through and what I was going through because I didn't want to burden her with it. What advice could you give somebody about how to talk to someone with a terminal illness, a terminal illness in their life? 

J. That's a big one. You touched on some sadness around letting go or saying goodbye. I must say that that's the biggest, deepest, broadest, heaviest amount of sadness that there is. That's actually the subject matter that tears me up the most. It's one that I don't feel I've really accepted or dove into yet because it's just too overwhelming. But to get back to your question about how to talk to someone with a terminal illness, the best thing for me would be for someone to ask me if I'm interested in talking about it and to actually if I'm in the mood or have the space to discuss it and to actually discuss it like really seriously have a dialogue. Don't have one of those discussions that...

You ask me something and I say something and then you make it about you and what you've experienced and something that you knew in the past. But to actually be inquisitive about what's going on for that person. So I think that for me, not that I necessarily demand or want attention, but if someone wants to engage me in discussion, then have it be earnest. Otherwise, just say, I hope you're having a nice day. Don't ask me how I am, because normally I get what goes through my mind when you say, how are you?

My response nowadays is, well, how much do you want to know and how much time do you have? And how interested are you really? Because if you're just wanting to be kind and considerate, I'm having a fine day. Thank you for asking. But if you really want to know, then let's have a discussion. And that could take anywhere from two minutes to two hours to two weeks to the rest of my life. There's a lot of subject matter there. So guess my perspective on that was if you're interested in speaking to someone about their situation, then only do it if you're truly interested and then only do it if you're going to be able to listen and have a dialogue that's pertinent to the subject matter. 

S. Step one, ask if you get a yes. Step two, be fully checked in and genuinely interested. 

J. Yeah. I mean, for me, I don't... I wouldn't say that I enjoy talking about it, but to hear myself talk about it gives me an opportunity to listen to what I'm actually thinking or what's coming out of my mouth and then to be able to get feedback from the person I'm talking to because I'll even ask them, does that sound reasonable to you what I just said? Do you understand what I just said? Do you think I'm crazy? Am I going off in a direction that's lunacy? We've had some conversations like that. Yeah, because I don't... My own personal experience with mental illness is that when I was in a state of mania or when I was in a state of depression, I really didn't know what was going on with me. But other people that were looking at me and listening to me and sitting with me knew exactly what to say. They could say, this is what's going on for Jerome and this is what he might want to consider. But I wasn't able to discern that. So at different times in this process, I definitely ask for people's feedback and perspective just to let me know if from their perspective, being, I'm not being deluded, not being deranged. So I think it's healthy to talk about these things. But I don't think it's beneficial for someone to want to talk to me that really doesn't, that's only trying to be kind and is not really interested. 

S. How about conversations where the conversation is coming from a position of somebody who wants to talk to you about how they feel about what's happening? 

J. So they want to express their feelings and emotions and disposition around it all? 

S.Yeah. 

J. I think that would be fantastic. Not many people do that. Frankly, it's very few people will volunteer that. And I would be more than interested in talking about that because it gives me an opportunity to see how it's showing up in other people. 

S. Yeah, as I said, when my mother was sick, one of the reasons I didn't talk to her about what was going on with me is because I didn't want to burden her with it. But I didn't consider that that would actually probably land differently for her because for her it may have landed more in the zone of, you know, this person loves me and is going to miss me. I don't know, however she received that -which is different than what my projection of it was. So there is some potential benefit there to having that conversation. So step one, ask if they're up for it. Step two, be open and genuine about it. And step three, if you want to ask them about if they're open to hearing how it's affecting you, yeah, go with their green lights or red lights, right? 

J. Yeah, I think it's up to me to discern whether if someone tells me what they feel about something or what their opinion is on something, then it's up to me to do with it what I choose to do with it. But to be able to listen to someone and actually be aware of how they're thinking and how they're processing it, from my perspective, I'd for the most part be interested and willing to engage in that discussion because I am interested in knowing. I'm not necessarily interested in being preached to about someone's based on someone's beliefs as to what I should do. But certainly how it affects them and what they're feeling is of interest to me. Do you find that that happens where people try to give advice or, you know, try to tell you it's going to be okay? Or is there anything that people say that just isn't helpful? Yeah, when people try to tell me how I can cure myself and what I can do to reverse all these symptoms or what I need to do to go to heaven or unless it's a dialogue that I'm engaged in and interested in. it's normally not welcome information. People with the strongest beliefs tend to give them regardless of the person they're talking to is ready to accept it or not. So, I enjoy dialogue, sincere dialogue. 

S. You're a very good space-holder. Not everybody is as good a space-holder as you. So, I would say to any listeners that if you have someone in your life that you want to have these conversations with, ask if they're open and then let them do the driving because it may be they think they're open and they may change their mind halfway through and if they do, then pull the plug on it, set it aside for later, maybe follow up later. But you know, this is it's up to them. 

J. Yeah. One of really elusive dynamics or ticklish dynamics is to have the conversation with the people in my family, my sisters and my sister and brothers or my children. I have four children, four adult children and I've had conversations with each of them and there many there feels like there's more deep and poignant conversations that yet want to be had. And finding the right place for that, the right setting, the right atmosphere and the right time to allow because it's like layers like Shrek, like an onion has different layers. It takes time to get down to the real core of the discussion. It takes time to break through some of the more surface related things.

But to actually get down to the emotion involved, it requires intention. That's what I'm finding. I feel that there's still quite a bit more work that I can do in that realm. So when I wake up at night with the things that I must do, much of it has to do with what I must do around my own family, my closest friends and loved ones, to really give them an opportunity to express themselves to the extent they can.

What I'm also realizing is it's not possible always for me to express to you how I really feel about something because there's so much emotion in the way. So that's one of the things I would suggest that takes time and surrender not to be too manufactured about it, but how does one establish the atmosphere in order to have those conversations? 

S. That brings up a good point too. If someone is requesting a conversation with someone with a terminal illness, illness to, uh this isn't something you at McDonald's.

This isn't something you do at some family get together. This is something that you want to have the right setting for and the time. So, it's not something to be rushed. You know, you should choose a good location for it so we're quiet probably somewhere that you can be alone perhaps just the two of you. you have that opportunity, that's most beneficial. 

J. And sometimes I find I'm with someone who I think you were in a meeting that we had a couple weeks ago with other men in my life, a men's group that I'm a part of. I just felt there was a number of things going on with my symptoms and the progression of things and how I was feeling about my longevity on the planet and I figured it was time to let the people that were closest to me in my circle outside of my family circle to let them know I may not see them ever again. And so, took a lot of... I I thought about it for a number of days or weeks before I actually had the courage to call it all together and then actually follow through with it.

But these are things that take, I mean, that took a week to set it up. took, I mean, there are 12 people there. It took four or five hours out of everybody's day. They had to travel to a place. I mean, it's extremely intentional. So, these things take time. And I would encourage those of you out there that are in the midst of the challenge to feel into and exist into the fact that things are going to end relatively soon and what you can do to ease your conscience and ease your soul and ease your mind to know that you've done the things most appropriately that you can do. I'm anticipating that when it comes time to pass away, I'd like to do that with as clean a slate as possible. And I'd like to do it with the people that are closest to me understanding that I appreciate them and I'm grateful for being in their relationship with them and just to be able to have the opportunity to say that. So yeah, having dialogue and discussions is it takes up a lot of my time.

S. I'm a real big believer in the idea of uh meaning and purpose and how much that matters in life in terms of our levels of joy. And so, I'm curious, you know, how this experience has affected the way you look at meaning and purpose. 

J. It's given me some comfort and acceptance around the whole concept of life purpose. I was a person in my career and in my working years that was driven pretty hard towards getting things done.

Along the way, my purpose was to simply get the things done that were in front of me and that I knew I needed to do. I don't know that I've ever had a life's purpose with respect to completing something or a passion about completing something, but whenever I did do the exercises, I always came back to my family and my wife being the most important things in my life. And as times are getting closer now to the end, I'm accepting that that was an okay place to be. I used to get kind of torn up because I wasn't one of those persons who was passionate about saving the planet or helping a particular group of people or doing a particular function. But now that I'm coming to the end, having decent relations with family, friends and acquaintances and anybody that I pass by on the street is an extraordinarily wonderful purpose if that's your purpose in life. I was once awarded with an award through the Mankind Project program of helping other people. worked on a county project for sheltering women that were abused in relationships. Spent several years on that. And in the Mankind Project, they want you to come up with your own personal slogan of sorts. And what I came up with was I would just like for people's lives to be a tad bit better after they met me than before they knew me. I kind what's the goal? I thought that was a cop-out in some sense because it wasn't more specific.

But now that I'm in the position that I'm in, I feel quite content and somewhat complete in having that as my purpose. And as I relate that to my family and my wife and children, it gives me a barometer. And if I sense that I'm doing things that are detrimental to their well-being, that'll give me pause and give me an opportunity to do something different. So, it's definitely had an impact. think that's resonated out to other relationships in my life as well. So, as far as having a stated purpose,

I think that it's given far too much attention in today's day and age because for those people that are driven, that are focused, that are strong-willed, yeah, they can create a passion and pursue it. But for a vast majority of people that are out there that don't have those characteristics, aren't type A personalities, I think it's detrimental to them to think that they must have a purpose in life and they don't have one. It might be something that's hard to accept and detrimental to one's well-being. 

S. So, meaning weighs a little more for you.

J. I believe so. 

S. Yeah, the two are often, they often overlap, but they're not the same thing. 

J. Yeah. 

S. They have a saying that I don't know how it got in my head, but it's been there for more than 30 years and it's, 'I am becoming today the man I'll be the day I die.' And that's all about that getting slightly better thing, you know, and think it ties in a little with your personal motto, where, you you want people to feel like their life's slightly better having met you. We determine where we're going by small degrees. You little changes we make now that we hold over long periods of time determine where we end up. The old motto I love, it was a great analogy, was a plane leaves Los Angeles and it gets in the air heading to London, but it changes one degree to the left. When it gets off the ground, it ends up in Moscow. So same flight, same plane, different destination, because one small change early.

Now, we see about that in terms of life decisions, you know, like what one little thing can I do now that's going to give me better results? It isn't quite as related to your journey, but I think there's something there too. You know, when we look at life, life ultimately, the end of life is death. And so, where do you want to be when you get to that, wherever that happens to be? And the changes we make now do have an impact on that. 

J. For sure.

J. For me, the sense is I'd like to be where I'm going to be when I die now and if I'm not there now, I'd like to be on the path of getting there. So that before I pass away, I've made a good progress along that journey. It sounds like you haven't given yourself too much misery about it. That you're being kind to yourself. It feels like it would be easy to fall into, you know, this headspace of being concerned about what's not done yet, what's not checked off yet, what I still have to do. Yeah, I've gone through a couple of phases of depression in my life that were acute and deep, thankfully, relatively short lived, months and a year versus many, many years. But that was those were fueled by not being enough and not having not getting done what I need to get done and not being capable of doing what I'm doing or regretting things that I did in the past. But more presently, I've listened to people, I've gotten feedback

and in those places, people would come to me and encourage me and tell me what kind of person they thought I was and how capable I was. And I tended not to listen or it didn't absorb. This time around, I've been listening to people and their feedback on who they think I am and what their impression of me is. And a vast, vast majority of them are very complimentary and positive and encouraging and express that they've had wonderful experiences with me and that I'm capable and competent.

So, I don't know if it's been a conscious choice or a subconscious choice, but I'm choosing to live in that realm. So, that part of me that is not enough and is incapable and isn't good enough, I don't want to turn my back on it, but I want to just recognize that I'm to do what I can today to reverse or change any of those things, but to realize the vast majority of who I am is a pretty beneficial thing. That's kind of how I come to that. 

S. It's a good place to be. 

J. Feels like it.

S. What's one piece of perspective about living fully based on what you've learned over these past several years since getting this diagnosis, is there anything that stands out? 

J. Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is simplicity. So, to have so much to do to be able to establish and create a lifestyle that isn't yearning and wanting and grasping and searching and reaching for more to feel complete. The magic for me has been realizing that I'm complete as I am and there really is nothing more to do. And that's been an extraordinary release. Because honestly, when it comes right down to it, who's determined what anybody must do and does anybody really need to do anything at all? I mean, it's quite silly a lot of the things that we force ourselves to do to make us show up in a certain way. So, what that's done is kind of not kind of, it's opened up the days to be simple. And I find doing the dishes to the extent that I can, my my motor skills are getting to the point that I can't do dishes, it's kind of frustrating. But just to do the simple things, today I painted the window sill on a couple windows that my wife didn't like the look of and it was a relatively difficult task with shaking hands. Can you imagine holding onto a jar of paint and a paintbrush with it shaking so much that it flings paint all over the place? But to be able to do that was extraordinarily gratifying for myself and it was simple. So, I don't have big goals and objectives in my life. I don't have a bucket list of needs to do. Thankfully, I've had a very wonderful life and a very adventuresome life and I've been many places and done many things. But I would imagine that regardless of who we are, when the time comes that we're going to be preparing for the end of life, if I can accept what I've done as being complete and what shows up on the list isn't something that really has that much energy behind it, it might be enjoyable, it might be fulfilling, but it's not absolutely necessary.

The necessity of something is what breeds the anxiety and the angst because if I find something that essential and I'm not getting it done, then that seems to me to be a source of misery, longing and desire that may be unmet or the source of frustration. I don't know if I've come to that on my own or I've listened or learned it from others, but it certainly is a nice place to be where it's not that I don't get tied up from time to time, but I can come back to that place of saying, what do I really need to do?

S. Is the checklist all done? Is there anything on the checklist that needs to be done? 

J. The checklist, the end of life checklist. It's not 100 % done, so there are always times I can come back to that. But if it's not on that list, then I realize, oh wow, what I need to do today is just be kind. It's not even that I need to do it, it's that I have the opportunity to be kind and considerate. Because why at this point in my life would I want to create more misery and angst for other people?

S. It seems to me that what you found is the ability to be very present. Is it Buddhist or Confucian or perhaps it's both? There's this notion and you touched on it in a way that people who live in the past live with regret, people who live in the future live with anxiety, people that live in peace are living right here in the present. There's something about being present that I think is the only place where joy is found. You're not going to find it a minute from now or two minutes ago.

It's just allowing ourselves to be present here and not have to be doing anything other than being present. It seems to show up. Would you say that's kind of where you're at with it? 

J. In a sense, what came up for me is that presence is as a result of putting yourself in a position to accept it. It's not a place that I can force myself to be because if I'm forcing anything at all, then it's impossible to be present. So, it's more about allowing than forcing.

It's about allowing but it's also about aligning the things in your life and taking care of those things that must be taken care of to the extent that they can be so that one can be present without having all the needs and wants and have-to-dos in the way of being present. So guess leading a more simple life helps lead to being present or leading a life, being in a life that has those things that are necessary in life's progress to complete. Just the things that we do on a daily basis and the relationships that we have puts us in a position to be present. Those things aren't done. It's very difficult for me to be present. 

S. No one expects a terminal diagnosis. And I would imagine that when you get that, that there's maybe a picture in your mind of what that's going to be like. Is there any part of that of what's happened since you got that diagnosis until now that has surprised you? 

J. In this moment, it's the elusiveness or the difficulty in diving into the sadness and actually experiencing, I think, people call grief. And maybe something that's the one, the most prevalent thing that comes up for me that I have a sense that I haven't yet accepted or surrendered to or learned how to experience. Because when the sadness shows up about me actually being gone and leaving everybody behind, I become, well, for lack of a better term, a basket case. Emotionally, can't speak, it's difficult to breathe. I can't really dive into it because it's just too physiologically consuming. My body starts to heave and I start to sob and it's one of the things that I have a reaction to, I back away from. So the elusiveness of diving into that more fully is the most surprising element of this process. And I think that that's one area that I'm in denial of to some extent. We're not allowing to happen. There are other people in my life that have consciously chosen to go towards grief and to experience the grief before I pass to maybe ease the reality of the process. Otherwise, I think I've been covering... I've been told that I'm covering all the bases pretty well. Now, mind you, I also have consultants that are helping me in this process. I'm not doing this all on my own by any stretch of the imagination. Matter of fact, most of the things that I do in preparation have been discussed with others as to being appropriate and worthy elements of the preparation for death. 

S. You're a good planner. 

J. I think so. 

S. Yeah. I should say that the skyline in Sacramento has been influenced by your impact because of a building that you helped get constructed. There are things that are left in the universe after Jerome is no longer hanging around on the planet that you've left your mark in other ways as well. It seems like, you know, from our conversations that that's less important to you than perhaps the mark you've left with your children and your family and the impact you had on others. 

J. For sure. I don't tend to say one's more important or better than the other. It's just really nice for me to know that there are things that I've done that have a good legacy attached to them.

S. Getting back to the grieving process, it feels like what you've done is you've had the ability to compartmentalize it. So, you know, I see you talking about it and you're like, you have a mental acknowledgement that it's going on but you've got it locked down to a certain extent. Is it something that you just sort of set aside and you put in a box and you're like, if I want to break this out later, I'm going to do it but I'm not going to do it right now. 

J. That's what comes up as a natural response when it occurs. And I do believe I have enough time left to really delve into it. So I'm not too concerned that I'm stepping over it. I think there ought to be some rush, but I haven't given it to it yet. I trust that things will unfold and more will be revealed. And that when the time comes that it's appropriate that I really dive into it, that I'll have the opportunity to do that. I don't feel that I'm missing that opportunity. 

S. It's a beautiful place to be. 

J. Yeah. There isn't a rush. You know, the time's right, the time's right. And if I never dive into experiencing profound and deep grief, I think I can die with that. The question is whether I can live with that. We'll see. 

S. Well, you are currently. 

J. I am at the moment. 

S. Yeah. It's interesting the way things that matter will bubble to the surface, whether you like it or not. Sometimes it's a smile. You get that joy moment where you feel it in your chest.

Something's going on and it makes its way to your face, you get that smile, like like you could stifle a smile if you wanted to then I could sneeze. I think that our grieving, that happens too, you know, if it needs to come out, it'll find a way, it'll find its time. Through this process, is there anything that you wish more people understood about living with a terminal diagnosis? 

J. That we should all be treated as if we're someone with a terminal diagnosis.

….In the sense of the care that we give to each other and the compassion that we have. I don't really get the sense that there's anything that anybody needs to do to be aware of anybody else with a terminal diagnosis. For me, it was very difficult. In my life, I would meet people that are in their challenges, but it never really landed in me viscerally, emotionally. I mean, I could conceive of it. I could think about it, but I was very detached.. not very detached, I simply was detached from the reality of it, so when I walked away it was not something that was in my presence anymore. My sense is that if we all can realize the fragility of life and realize that everybody is going through some type of challenge, everybody is in the midst of dying, everybody has a terminal diagnosis in one sense or the other, but to actually treat people in that way with consideration and compassion, that would make a difference. 

S. Imagine a world where we all are... we all could be that way. Seems like it would be perfection. 

J. Seems like it would be rather simple. 

S. Yeah. 

J. Yeah. 

S. What gets in the way? What gets in the way of us being able to do that? 

J. Oh, gosh. I don't think we want to get into that level of discussion. 

S. I have my theories. 

J. Just read the newspaper, listen to the news. 

S. Yeah, it seems like it. Yeah, the news, societal expectations, greed. All of it. 

J. All of it. 

S. All of it. Yeah.

S. You are becoming Buddhist on some level. 

Thank you. I like that answer. Unexpected. Beautiful. 

I've got some reader questions. when I found out, when I talked to you about doing this interview and you said you were willing to have this conversation, I put it out to my listeners on social media and said, you know, if you could ask someone with a terminal diagnosis any question, what would it be? So I'm going to just, I'll shoot some stuff out and we can, if you feel comfortable answering them.

cool, if not, we can skip as well. One of them I thought that was kind of funny is, what are you coming back as and how will we know it's you? You know, assuming that's like somebody you know that's asking that. 

J. That's a beautiful thought. I actually think about that from time to time. How does one know? it the rustle of a leaf or the blow of the wind or the way the sun is shining at that particular moment or the fish that you catch or the scenery that you see?

So that's one of the subject matters that I don't, I choose not to spend too much time thinking about it because I don't believe there's an answer to the question so I can make it up. But if I'm going to make it up, it would be a series of different things, but it would be pleasant experiences. It would be those types of things when your whole body relaxes in an unexpected way, almost in an inexplicable way. That would be me helping you relax. 

S. Thank you.

S. Do you feel as anything that you're leaving undone or unsaid? 

J. Yes, but I'm getting there. I think one of the more elusive things is there are a couple of relationships, thankfully less than I can count on one hand, that I think are unfinished, that still have some angst attached to them. Those are the things I think about often and I try to figure out how I can change or solve it or better it.

And these are things I've been thinking about for many years on the same situations, which it's not that I haven't tried in the past. So those would be things that I think are undone. The things that would be undone would be having any ill will as a result of my existence. And I believe I've come to a place of acceptance with where it is. And if things change for the better, I think that would be nice. And I'm doing all I can to make certain that things don't get repeated, that I don't create any more ill will.

that I've already created in my life over the years. As far as things that are unsaid, there's a lot of things that are unsaid. I hope that over the next several months, I have the opportunity to speak to people in earnest and create those situations that we talked about, have the right atmosphere attached to them that allows people to get into what they really want to feel and express. And I think that goes for almost everybody in my life. think there's still, I look forward to having another contact with everybody. Everybody is a lot of people.

But for as good a number of people as I can to really listen to what they have to say and absorb it and have them understand that time is short and that leaving the place in an appreciative note would be a thing for me to be able to do.

S. Years from now, imagine that someone you love is listening to this. What is it that you want them to know? 

J. That knocks on the door of the deep sadness. I can feel it coming out where it's like a tsunami of sadness. How do you portray to someone while you're alive?

How much, how much they mean to you? So someone were to think of me years down the road, it would be comforting for me to know that I did what I could to have them feel fortunate and feel loved and considered and appreciated and not regret things that we haven't done but be pleased with the things that we did.

S. Anything else there?

J. It's too deep to tap into right now. Okay.

S. I'd to look at the topic of this thing that's known as MADE, M-A-I-D, it's medical assistance in dying, is that the terminology? 

J. Yes

S. So this is something that's, something that is an option, at least in California and some other states, where when a person gets close to the end, they can make decisions about choosing the time and place. So there are certain things that go into that and certain requirements that have to be there and able to do that. Can you talk a little bit about that and what's involved in those requirements, first of all, and sort of an overview of what that's about? 

J. I believe that law was passed in California in 2016. I think presently there may be 10 or 11 states in the United States that allow it in some form or another. What it basically boils down to is if one has been given a terminal diagnosis, their life expectancy can be six months or less, that it affords them the opportunity to get a prescription for a compound that will actually slow your heart down to the point of stopping it, put you to sleep and then slowly have you pass. My understanding is that that's been initiated to allow people to avoid extraordinary suffering or extraordinary pain on a pathway that's inevitable in relatively short term. So, you have to have two different doctors assess you and provide you with the approval or the determination that you're in that zone. I've gone through that process and have been afforded the opportunity to pursue it if I choose. So that adds a whole other dimension and dynamic to the process that I wasn't aware of before. I became aware of it about a year ago and I watched a number of documentaries and videos and listened to podcasts and I acquainted myself with the process and the symptomology, the progression of the symptoms of this particular condition.

J. And in virtually every single instance, it leads to extraordinary debilitation and lack of ability to function properly. And virtually everybody that I've ever seen or known or heard of has gotten to a point of not being able to function. And the only way to be kept alive is through the assistance of other humans or through medical intervention to some extent or not. So, as I sit here today, that's something that I don't relish the idea of being helpless and not able to control my bodily functions and to be able to do the most basic things. So I'm strongly considering that alternative. But to say definitely that's what I'm going to do feels a bit elusive. And I can say that it's a bit of a comfort to know that it's an opportunity that I have. The delicate thing is being able to do it because one must be able to administer the compounds themselves. They must be able to swallow it. So swallowing is going to be the first thing that goes. And I'm otherwise... 

S. … and I mean in terms of your condition, that's one of the things that... anybody needs to be able to swallow the compound, right? 

J. So it turns out that that's one of the things that is evidently going to go away for me. The other thing is you have to be able to ask for it in some way, shape or form. So you have to have some mobility skills and you have to have some swallowing skills in order to be able to affect it. And the thing that gets a little bit scary for me is if I go past those points where I can't do one or two, both of those things then you live in a state of being kept alive. 

S. So there's sort of, in a way, there's a window there that you still have to be able to request it and still have to be able to swallow the compound. And if you lose either one of those abilities, either the ability to speak or respond in the affirmative, perhaps in typing or something, or the ability to swallow, then that option is taken off the table. Is that my understanding? 

J. I believe that's the gist of it. 

S. So then that's sort of a mathematical equation for you when you start thinking about how much time and how long will those things remain in place before you lose them. 

J. Becomes quite an interesting process. I get to live with that. So, the mornings I wake up are the days that I choke on something and I gag and I think, oh, shit, my throat's beginning not to work. Is this going to go turn off for me in a week or two weeks or a month or six months? It gets a little bit, I don't know if the word's frightening, but it really becomes present as to what's going on. It reminds me that I'm on this road. 

S. In the nature of this illness, there's no sort of spreadsheet for at week whatever this happens, at week whatever this happens. So there's no way of knowing when those things might give out or if they'll give out. It's not like everybody has the different bodily functions shut down in exact same order. 

J. Interestingly, it's quite the opposite. There are evidently no two people alike with this condition.

There's no way to predict what's going to happen or when it's going to happen or to what severity. There's evidently no cure or no way to reverse it. There may be things that one can do to perhaps slow it down or to perhaps be more healthy along the way. But the idea of actually changing it, there doesn't seem to be any pathway to that. So all these things are going to happen at some point or another. The question for me becomes what is the sequence of them for me?

And at what point in time does life become unlivable? And at that point in time, am I still going to have the ability to choose the made process or not? That's mystery at this point in time. I try not to spend too much time thinking about it. I try to make certain that I've checked the boxes necessary to be prepared for it and to not let the opportunity pass. But that is one of the subject matters that I try not to ruminate on because it doesn't bring a whole lot of joy. 

S. It's a tremendous thing to consider. You know, we, like as I said, we all know we're terminal, right? This life has a certain amount of time to it, every single one of us, but to pause and consider those sorts of decisions, I try to imagine what that's like and I know that I'm not even going to get in the ballpark with it in the current situation that I'm in myself. Our conversations around that, our conversations around it in the past have been, I'm not even sure what the word is, but the amount of

admiration perhaps I have for you and looking at those things and considering them in the way that you have, I would imagine that you would probably not really think of it that way because I know you. I know for you it's quite a practical matter if that's accurate, that's not projecting. It's an awe-inspiring thing to witness from this perspective. 

J. For certain, it's awesome for me too to consider it.

It's definitely the difference of theory and reality. What was theoretical before is now becoming real and the way that those two things come together is always quite magical and profound in unexpected ways. There's one perspective that has come to me recently and I've sat with it for a number of weeks, maybe a couple of months, and people ask me what it's like to be experiencing this. And what came to me was, is I'm two different humans. One human is the human that's watching and observing and witnessing what's going on. The other person is the one that's actually experiencing it and living it and feeling it and being with it. And my sense is that I've been able to have myself remain as much as possible in the realm of the observer and not in the realm of the experiencer. But most recently over the last couple of weeks, and this is what drove me to call that men's meeting, was thatmy sense was that those two beings are merging and it became much more emotional and much more vivid and experiential than it ever had been before because the symptoms that I was experiencing were more of a nuisance and more of an inconvenience and there was actually a part of me that could reason away that even have the condition at all that everything's going to be fine, there's something else going on with me that's going to go away. But then over the last month or so, things have occurred that have

kind of cemented and validated the diagnosis to the point that I don't want there to be any denial left. Not that I accept it completely and fully, but there isn't enough denial to have me be foolish and delusional. And the converging of those two entities has been extraordinarily profound. Not easy. It's been very difficult emotionally and it's brought me to a sense of it's brought me to being on the verge of breakdown, emotional breakdown consistently throughout the days.

So find myself on the verge of tears and on the verge of sobbing. And I think that that's what many people may feel that are in this situation. I wouldn't call it helplessness or hopelessness, but it's this acquiescence to the inevitable conclusion of death. And the actual idea of accepting that and holding it and being with it is quite profound. I'd like to be able to live with it to the point that it becomes, I know if joyful is the right word, but complete acquiescence and acceptance and humility to not give it so much or any negative energy per se. But it's that breaking down of the wall between the observer and the experiencer that I believe I'm experiencing and it's awesome in many ways. I don't know how much that makes sense but that was a couple of ways that I've been describing my personal experience on this recently. 

S. Would you put that in the category of a spiritual experience?

J. I'm open to that. 

S. That's my beat. Of course, I'm going to go there. I want to say too that the meeting that you called a couple of weeks back with so many of your dearest and closest and oldest friends and had that conversation with us and told us what was going on in your life. And many of us had sort of a glimpse of it prior to that. But for you to open up and tell us what you were going through. it was a

heavy meeting, was a beautiful meeting, it was a sad meeting, it was, there were tears, there were hugs, there were so many wonderful things that happened there. And the reason I want to bring it up is because it was so meaningful to me and you know, everyone I spoke to about it who was there was so appreciative of that. And I wanted to mention it because I think that there may be people out there who are terminal who don't talk about their stuff for whatever reason, because they don't want to burden people with it perhaps, or because they have a story about what it would mean to do that. To a man in that group, I know that every single person that was there was thankful and appreciative that it happened. so if you are out there and you do have a terminal diagnosis and you feel like you're burdening people with it, I just want to tell you that you have permission to make this about you. This is a very important part of your journey.

It is all about you right now. It is not selfish. It is simply letting people in. And I want to thank you for doing that. That was a tremendous gift. It led to this conversation, to be honest, to me asking you to have this conversation with me, 

J. You know, it was something that I felt compelled to do. There was some hesitation in it, but I've also been encouraged by people that have, that I have been in discussion with, that it's things that they want to learn about and know about and have some experience with.

So there is an element of being able to educate. I'm in a unique position to be an educator at this particular moment. Not that I want to get on a soapbox necessarily, but to express it to my close friends and anybody that's sincerely interested. We live in what they call as a death phobic society and these things are sometimes verboten. The people shy away from them, shy away from discussing them for many different reasons. I would imagine many valid reasons.

But there's also a huge amount of opportunity to have those folks that are living with terminal diagnoses in the midst of considering these things to express their feelings and emotions and understanding what's going on so that others can be aware and learn and prepare themselves in such a way that will be graceful and not full of anguish. 

S. Are there any other topics you want, anything else that comes to mind that you'd like to talk about?

J. I think we've done a pretty good job. Let's just say I hope to be around long enough to do another discussion with you when the time comes and we have a bunch of new questions. 

S. I would love that. If you're listening to this and it's been useful, if it's been uncomfortable, if it's been at all emotional, or if it brought anything up that you want to talk about, if you're listening on a platform that allows notes, please leave me a note in the notes section. Make a comment. If you have any questions for Jerome, we may have another conversation. Feel free to leave a note there as well. Perhaps we'll come back around to this. I we have a good opportunity to do that. I know that for the next several months, Jerome's got some plans to keep busy and he's got some things he's going to be doing to enjoy life. So we may be able to fit it in, we may not. We'll see what happens. Jerome, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. 

J. It's been my pleasure, Stacey. Thank you too.