The Cologne Podcast

#320 - The fragrance industry is more bizarre than you could ever imagine.

• Myke & Ryan • Season 6 • Episode 320

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Dan from Soma and Insider Parfums joins The Cologne Podcast for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at the fragrance industry that both newcomers and connoisseurs will find fascinating.

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Ryan:

hello everybody, welcome to the cologne podcast I'm mike, I'm ryan.

Myke:

We're two best friends. You know we're going on a fragrance journey. We're smelling fragrances, but also, upon the occasion, we like to hang out with fragrance bros. Yeah, and today we've got dan, our fragrance bro, fragrance bro, yeah I don't know, is that?

Dan:

is that an insult or a compliment? I don't know it's a compliment in the us is a compliment okay, yeah yeah, okay, and also things people say tech bros, but like in a really scornful oh that's true.

Myke:

Oh, we meant you were our bro, not that you were a fragrance bro.

Myke:

Thank you, thank you for that useful clarification it might be copyright infringement as well, because I think there was some fragrance bros back in the day, was there? Yeah, I think so good. So we'll see. Who knows who cares. No one listens. Yeah, no, fucking seeming cool. Well, first off, before we get too deep into some conversational stuff, I'd like for us to spray Ryan. I've made you smell this a couple of times, but we've never actually sprayed it on. I'd like for us to spray this Madagascar from your Insider line, dan, and kind of chat about that for a second.

Myke:

Mike as I spray this on.

Ryan:

What was your reasoning to bring this back? Like you smelled this on somebody before, I can't remember.

Myke:

Well, we had a great episode with Dan in the past. So, if you're listening, you haven't checked that out. Go check it out. And Dan, you were talking about this being one of your releases and you got me all hopped up on it. So whenever I went to Assance, I asked some of the guys over there hey, can you bring me five, 10 mil of that so Dan doesn't have to ship us a bottle? And so they. Our buddy, Chris Fragmental, hooked me up with 10 mil of this bad boy Cool.

Dan:

Yeah, well, we did a video with Chris actually in York, over in his hometown, and when we sort of launched it and to be honest, I'm really pleased with this, to show you just how pleased I am with it. This is the only one that I've done this with, but that is about 300 mil of the oil. So the oil concentrate, not even the perfume, that's just the oil and I am keeping that for my personal consumption. And, yeah, so if I get arrested, no one's going to believe me that that's personal consumption. They're going to accuse me.

Ryan:

I'm quietly confident of that that's a nice bottle you got it in, is that?

Dan:

uh, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a vintage lalique flacon, um and um. You can see, by the way, I don't know you this. I'm aware, by the way, that podcasting is not a visual medium, but for the sake of youtube, I can show you the bottom of that. You can see all the vanilla crystallizing in the bottom of it, which apparently is the sign I don't know this, but apparently is the sign of it which apparently is the sign I don't know this, but apparently is the sign of high quality ingredients. So, yeah, we've swung for the fences with this one and I'm really happy with the output. I mean, do you like it? And be honest, obviously I'd rather. Oh, yes, absolutely.

Myke:

Yeah, I love it. I've worn this a few times. I've gone through the other 5ml and then we have a little bit left here, but I absolutely loved it. I got to wear it in Italy, which was great. I've brought it back. It is like a very sophisticated vanilla fragrance. I had no idea what to expect because I don't really have my finger on the pulse of vanilla fragrances. They're elusive to me because when we first got into it I thought every vanilla fragrance would smell like a candle, like one of these home type candles. And then when we got deeper into it and it was like, oh, the Laytons have the vanilla. And then we got even deeper into it and the Musra Bajars had the vanilla. Then we started kind of understanding how vanilla could be more masculine and this, I think, is just a great sophisticated, masculine vanilla and it's got a little bit of attitude to it, but it's not challenging in any way. I really enjoy it.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean. So I agree with all of that and I think it is a very easy to wear fragrance. I am personally not a huge vanilla fan. I find most vanilla to be too sweet and kind of a little bit sickly. Personally, I can't stand Tom Ford tobacco vinay. I know it's very popular but I get a very foodie association with that fragrance because you've got the vanilla with then this very kind of claggy dried fruit kind of thing going on and, and so I find it quite difficult to get vanilla that is clean and on its own almost, and quite simple. So usually it's over, overly saccharine, you know, too sweetened.

Dan:

Um, in this, in this, in well, in and. And you know I'm not claiming, as everyone will hopefully know, this is our clone, because that's what it is. It's an interpretation of Henri Jacques Blue Vanille, and Blue Vanille for me is not a terribly sweet vanilla, it's vanilla with a little bit of pepper, a bit of tobacco, a little carnation, which makes it quite. It's not bitter by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not sort of cakey and like really sort of overly gourmand, which is what I love about it and I think it's, I think it's perfect on its own. I like to wear it, but I think it's absolutely brilliant to layer with other fragrances, because sometimes the addition of a bit of vanilla can give you a bit of I guess guess dynamism with fragrances.

Dan:

And I listened to your episode with your friend talking about layering imagination with. Well, he was talking about layering imagination with Insidious, which I thought was fantastic, but it does occur to me that either imagination or Insidious would work very well with this as well, because it just gives it a little bit of base. Yeah, so I might even try that tomorrow. I hadn't thought of it, but I quite like pairing it with a rose fragrance.

Ryan:

Well, you had said something about a carnation and stuff like that. Look, I'm not educated enough on this stuff, but when I smelled this, I immediately liked it. And the reason why I liked it, though, was like do you get a?

Dan:

honeysuckle vibe to some degree to this. I don't. I, I seem to get that and I love that and, like credo, has that kind of vibe too, yeah, so, so I mean, I I don't think it's a huge leap from vanilla to to honey uh, to honeysuckle, if I'm honest and the carnation does give it a little bit of florals. So I think carnation can sometimes be a bit minty, which is weird, but it doesn't feel like that here. It just feels almost like a slightly peppery floral. Yeah, it just gives it a little bit of lift. But I mean, for me the vanilla is the star of the fragrance, right, right, it's vanilla with a few accoutrements, rather than kind of vanilla as a component.

Myke:

Yeah, I didn't even pick up floral until you said the carnation. Then I was like whoa, okay, now I kind of smell the floral aspect of it, but I always just kept saying it's like, oh, it's like this spicy vanilla, like if um vanilla wasn't, didn't have a you know what I keep saying carnation?

Dan:

I don't mean carnation, I mean geranium. Oh, okay, okay, and that's why I said minty Geranium has that sort of mintiness to it. I don't know why I've gone off on carnations.

Myke:

Well, it's light for you over there.

Dan:

Yeah, it's pushing 830. Our bad.

Myke:

Yeah, your bad, yeah yeah.

Dan:

Yeah, anyway, so anyway, so sorry. Yes, geranium and it's geranium can be quite, uh, minty. So, um, there's a frederick maul. Um, I could forget what it's called. It might just be called geranium, uh, or geranium something or other, but it basically smells like toothpaste, like minty, bright toothpaste, if that very uh, odd story. Um, oh, I can't remember who the perfume is by now. Uh, I'll have to look it up. But basically, I did a review on my instagram of this geranium uh, it's geranium pommassure is is the name of the perfume. Um, and it's a dominique ropion fragrance for frederick mao, and I did a review. I said, christ, this just literally smells like toothpaste, um, like like a sort of like a, like a mouthwash, kind of intense minty toothpaste, toothpaste. There's not much more to it. And somebody who appeared to be dominique ropion basically started fucking giving me shit about it, like you know, literally commenting on it and then and then stalking my other profiles and saying this is a dupe-loving, fucking sicko. And the reason was it turned out it wasn't even the real Dominique Ropion.

Dan:

Oh, I'm disappointed Some fucking lunatic who gets offended on behalf of Dominique Ropion and goes around pretending to be him. I mean, honestly, the fragrance world is bizarre, really bizarre.

Myke:

It is definitely bizarre. It is the amount of people, like you said who get offended on behalf of other people is so strange to me. I don't get it well it's, it's.

Dan:

It's a very interesting, I think. I think it's a really interesting psychological sort of thing, right, where people strongly identify with a brand and they've decided to invest a lot of emotional energy in this brand or this perfumer and and often they've invested a lot of money in that as well right, so they don't want to hear bad things said about them because it they take that as a personal sort of criticism. So, like these guys who really love zirjoff, who are obsessed with the brand and have tattoos sometimes have tattoos, yeah indeed, yes indeed, I, I I have no idea what that is about. I think that I mean, I actually I ranted about that on our, on our podcast. I think that was absurd. But you know, these people have invested huge amounts of money in buying Zerjoff and for them to hear someone say something shitty about them it feels like a personal attack on them, and I think you know, a lot of people are overly invested in sort of their identity as part of some sort of brand and I personally, I think it's a terrible thing to do, because if you, if you do that, then you lack the ability to to critique anything they do.

Dan:

So for zirjoff, I sort of quite like quite a lot of zirjoff perfumes and I sort of hate quite a lot of them and thatoff perfumes and I sort of hate quite a lot of them. And that's okay. You know, that should be okay and that's a healthy approach to a brand Saying well, this I like, this I don't like Because it's perfume. It's all subjective, right. I mean Absolutely yeah. So, but these sort of fanboys, these, what do you call them? That's amore fanboys. They will get really fucking bent out of shape if you say anything negative about any Zerjoff Perfume.

Myke:

Very strange behaviour. So, on a side note, I guess I shouldn't get a Soma tattoo then well, you can if you want, but as your attorney, I advise against it.

Ryan:

Follow-up question because I was thinking the same thing. I was like would you, if somebody got a Soma tattoo, would they at least get a free bottle out of it or something?

Dan:

No, If they got a Soma tattoo, I would tell them to get their fucking heads checked.

Ryan:

Don't show them the back piece, Mike.

Myke:

Oh my God, I have a giant, axiom bottle back piece.

Dan:

Nice, I mean if you're going to, yeah. So I mean to sort of precede my opinion, which I gave on our podcast. But as far as I'm concerned, if you have a brand tattoo, what you're doing is you're surrendering any sort of critical thought and you're saying I trust this brand to always represent me, it doesn't matter what they do in the future, and I think that's a very dangerous thing right, because yeah nothing lasts forever.

Dan:

But you know, on the on the flip side, a lot of friends of mine have got perfume tattoos of their favorite perfume, and I think that's very different, right? So james, who I do podcast with, has got a bottle of fahrenheit tattooed on him, and I love that because fahrenheit exists as a thing, right? Yeah, fahrenheit is not going to be well, I mean, they may reformulate it and such, but the bottom line is that original fahrenheit stands for something that meant something important to him. But you know, it's like getting tesla tattooed on you. I mean. Well, who would do that?

Myke:

I mean, what it turns out elon musk is a fucking nazi. I mean, for goodness sake, there's definitely I mean imagine, because the uh tesla, um uh demographic like target demographic has completely flipped, completely. Yeah. So imagine, all the people who originally were so sold in are now like oh my god, they're like hey, I, I bought this when elon was cool I literally, yeah, I know somebody personally, who's like we?

Dan:

can't wait to fucking get rid of this car oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I mean, and and I don't wish to sort of uh politicize your podcast in any way- no, no, no. I mean, it's just an example of someone saying well, I'm going to get this thing tattooed on me without any understanding or knowledge of what that thing is going to represent in the future. And I think that to me says you haven't thought this through.

Myke:

So I should get an insidious tattoo, and not because I will let insidious represent me.

Dan:

Okay, forward yeah, if, if you're going to get yes, you can do that. I, I mike, I think it's a great idea um. See, there we go just you know, don't sue me in the future if you decide it's a bad idea look, I think you just need to do like what it was, like uh, caesar's palace or something.

Ryan:

Somebody's wanting to get an insidious uh tattoo on their forehead. They get a bottle for life or something. Oh my god.

Myke:

So they get 150 tattoo and then he's got to ship out bottles for this, just because he's a lunatic yeah, it's advertising for the rest of their life.

Dan:

Yeah, I think it's a bad advert if I'm it's true.

Myke:

Yeah yeah, it's almost like they should pay you because it's gonna create negative outlook on the brand.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, look so. So I feel the need to issue a disclaimer that under no circumstances should anyone listening to this get any tattoo of any soma or insider parfums bottle.

Ryan:

Oh yeah do not do it. No way. We'll have todd edit that to make it sound like you said to do it. Yeah, I'm kidding yeah, and it'll.

Myke:

We'll use ai to make you say you'll get like a special affiliate link or something.

Ryan:

Yeah, definitely do not get a fucking tattoo, yeah, of a fucking very cruel, um, but yeah, so the the um.

Dan:

Madagascar we're really happy with. We made one, so we trailed it a bit. Obviously, we spoke about it on this podcast before we released it, spoke about it with Chris Fragmental as well, and in our first production run we made, I think, 57 bottles or something like that. Wow, and they sold. The whole lot sold out in 40 minutes which is brilliant.

Dan:

That's amazing so well, it, it was great and it sort of uh, it wasn't a sort of deliberate hey, let's, uh, let's artificially create like this kind of time pressure kind of thing. Um, so we made a small batch really to see whether there was actually appetite for it, because it was reasonably expensive to make and that sold out quickly. So then we made a second batch, but that was a much bigger one. So now we have stock and it's all good. But yeah, that one's doing quite well.

Ryan:

It is really, really nice. Well, I was going to say, like I've told you before, like to be proud of, like insidious, is a really great one. I would say the same for this one again. Just growing up in the south, we have like honeysuckles everywhere and this does remind me of that for some reason, and I'm always like a huge fan of that smell. It smells great. It does not smell cakey vanilla like you were talking about. It smells really good. This is pretty, genuinely good dude.

Dan:

Love it Good, I'm glad you think that.

Myke:

Yeah, I feel like it is slightly more of an attitude. So I feel like it might be for a mature audience, like more mature, maybe 25s and up, ish, yeah, you know, because there's a, there's a little bit of uh, you know, brass tacks with it that you kind of gotta you kind of gotta rock a little bit.

Dan:

But yeah, it is really nice interestingly, I don't know anything really about the demographic of the people we sell perfumes to. We don't. I don't think we capture age anywhere. I mean, I can, I can tell. I can tell you that the majority, but not an overwhelming majority, the it's like about 60 70 the majority of our sales are to men, right, um, but that's about all I could tell you. You know, I don't really know about the age thing. It's interesting you say that, though, because I like this. I find insidious for me that the whole Aventus profile it makes me feel when I wear it. It makes me feel like, not like I'm, I'm 25 again.

Dan:

Well, sort of it makes me feel like I'm trying to recapture that and and it almost makes me sort of not want to wear it for that reason. Whereas this I think you're right it definitely has a mature edge to it.

Myke:

It's like the older guys that wear like the bedazzled jeans with like the jean back pockets that have the bedazzled, you know that type of thing.

Dan:

Is that what you're?

Myke:

feeling like Well, yes, do you wear those.

Dan:

Yes, yes, I do. No, I do not, to be honest. If you ever see me wearing them, it's you know I've been kidnapped and I'm trying to signal that's a cry To be honest. If you ever see me wearing them, I've been kidnapped. I'm trying to signal that's a cry for help. Yeah, yeah.

Myke:

Good to know, we'll keep on the lookout. We'll always be staring at your back pockets from now on, well.

Dan:

I was hoping to have made it to Milan this year as well. Yeah, I know, ryan, you don't't fly, so you weren't going there. Not gonna happen, um, but but uh, I, you know, mike, uh, I saw the pictures, uh, and all the reels, the infinite fucking reels from everyone and it it looked like everyone had a great time. But I mean, the reality is I I don't know where I was at the point we last spoke, but I tried to make the perfume stuff work full time for a bit, but it didn't. I mean, it's OK, but it's not quite enough to live on.

Dan:

So I ended up basically getting another job. And so, about the point where I'd had to commit to sort of a new job and being at particular places and stuff, it just meant Milan. I couldn't really ask for time off, especially as, almost immediately that I started my new job, my wife got really ill with pneumonia, so I was basically at hospital for about three weeks. Wow, you know I was trying to explain to my new boss that no, honestly, honestly, I'm not normally just really flaky or anything. My wife is really unwell. No, she does exist, she is a real person.

Myke:

Honestly, I'm not just making this up oh, yeah, yeah, and then, then you hurt your knee again, and or you hurt your knee oh god, you missed it again.

Dan:

Yeah I missed it again. Yeah, so I I got invited um as part of the uh the press pack, don't you know? Um to um it's a sort of weird story actually. So I met uh um at an event last year. I met uh quentin, uh b, so Marc-Antoine Bauer's brother, and Quentin, very cool guy. But Quentin knew that I couldn't go to Milan this year and he said look, I've got something for you. Why don't you come and join us in Milan for this new launch of Aldebaran, which is their latest perfume? And I was like this is going to be brilliant. You know, this is my first kind of influencer event.

Dan:

You know all expenses paid, I finally made it. This is going to be amazing. And so a few days before, unfortunately, I was getting some washing at the washing machine, which is a pretty rock and roll story, I know. Oh yeah, I was rock and roll story I know.

Dan:

I was getting that washing out and I twisted and and there was a ripping sound from my left knee so I tore the meniscus in my knee. I could not walk at all for about a week, meant I had to miss Milan for a second time. So next year Exxon's it's happening, definitely, definitely 100. Good, it's because, yeah, I've got to meet you in person, man absolutely, and I'll be able to bring you all our new perfumes and such at that point.

Ryan:

Yeah, I do have a question about this. Maybe this is I don't know if this is too much for you or not, but would you think out of I mean I'm just basing this off of what I've smelled from the soma line and from from this line in particular, but it's like do you think this is one of your more elegant pieces that you've done? Um?

Dan:

I'm gonna say yes, but I mean the. The reality is it's a clone, right, it's a clone of a very elegant perfume, and so I think you know the reason I say yes, it's one of our most elegant perfumes is just because the original is so unbelievably elegant. It's beautiful. I mean, yeah, this is more I mean. So I think people get very bent out of shape about clones, for understandable reasons, but I think there is a real skill to what our perfumer has done here and created and to make something. You know people say clone it's like a, it's a dirty word, it means cheap, it means nasty, all those kind of things. But actually, you know, I think anyone trying this would never say this smells cheap or nasty or synthetic or any of those negatives, which I think is testament to the skill of the perfumer that's done this.

Myke:

Yeah, there's a subtle smokiness that it kind of dries down into, which is so nice and I love. It's like my favorite part of the fragrance. It's slowly getting there. I don't know if you're there yet on yours, but there's, like this, just this hint of warm smokiness that I'm obsessed with it is.

Dan:

Yeah, I think it's brilliant. I you know I'm not to blow my own trumpet, because again I there's no well, there's no skill. I I've not demonstrated any skill in this, you know um so I can say that I, you know, full-throatedly believe it's brilliant.

Ryan:

So you know, I think we had a conversation. We have this thing called like firestar chats and our patreon. I want to say we had something like similar conversation, like is there a skill? Like somebody like you know saying I want something like this? I think there is. It shows that you have a good nose for something the yeah.

Myke:

The remark was was um, you know there are people, there are um, oh, creative directors that are so good at directing that it's part of the art and it's not just like it's not the steve jobs, like make me a phone but cram everything into the phone and I need it done by saturday.

Myke:

You know it's not like that, you know there's like something in there to it and I think that was kind of. The question was worded in a way where they were talking about music producers and how music producers they are not the musicians, but they know so much about it that they're able to direct in such a good way.

Dan:

Well, I think the archetype for that is actually Roger Dove, right? So I will go on record as saying I have never believed that Roger Dove was personally the perfumer. What I believe Roger Dove is is a brilliant creative director and marketing impresario, right? And for me, if I were Rogerger duff, I would say that's enough. It's enough to be that, yeah, you know, yeah, um, but uh, but he's sort of, I guess, as part of he's ended up in this position where he said he's the perfumer, he's clearly uh, this is probably going to get uh land us in court, but to me he he clearly isn't.

Dan:

And and recently he's he's brought one of the perfumers out into the sort of public as like, hey, this guy will be doing our next fragrances and carrying the brand on. But, um, I mean, I've spoken to several people in the industry and and the reality is, I know what company creates the perfumes for him, and he is the creative director. He decides what he wants, he decides how the lineup is going to look, he describes the thing that he wants and someone else does the creative execution of it, and I think there is huge skill and talent in exactly that creative directorship thing. So for me, roger Dove is absolutely brilliant and what he does, um I just, I just don't believe personally that he actually creates perfumes. Yeah, to me that's not an insult.

Ryan:

We we've kind of had the well we I was.

Myke:

I'm concentrating for both of us, but I think truly we believe that he was the perfumer early on it was like easy to kind of think that because he would talk about the way he, you know, yeah, made the fragrance do this and this when you'd watch the videos and you'd kind of start believing that, whereas with tom ford you never thought that tom ford was clearly just going. You know what I love? I love fragrances that reminded me of my childhood in texas and new mexico, and you know I love that blah, blah, blah, so that sort of a thing too and to piggyback really quickly.

Ryan:

Like you know, we've kind of viewed, uh, roger dove as kind of like quentin tarantino's like kind of like fragrance. We love the storytelling aspect of it and I'm in the same boat with you. Like I don't really care if he's a perfumer or not. Like I love a portion of the fragrances are really really good yeah exactly.

Dan:

To me, it doesn't matter whether he is or is not the person at the sort of organ you know mixing uh, you know uh, ingredients together to come up with the smell, because that's only part of it. He's. He's the guy kind of conducting the orchestra, and to me that's that sort of visionary sort of thing that he and I'm not comparing myself to Roger Dove. What I'm saying is, I think that's a valuable thing in and of itself, arguably as important as the perfume. But from my perspective, I cannot claim to have created any of these perfumes. I sort of pick the things that I think I like and that I think we could do a good job at and as far as I know, no one else has done them, and let's go for it. So we've got.

Dan:

Have you ever tried Escada Any Escada perfumes? We've got. Have you ever tried Escada Any Escada perfumes? Escada Magnetism was a big, big perfume in the I want to say 90s, but I think it may actually have been released in the early 2000s, but it's like this sort of really lovely sort of cherry grape no not cherry grape soda sort of smell it's really.

Dan:

It was very popular and Escada discontinued it and I don't believe anyone else has created a version of that, so we've done that. That's awesome, so that one's coming soon. But yeah, I mean beyond that, I'm not really adding a huge amount of value other than sort of saying yeah let's do this.

Myke:

Let's do this. Next It'll be brilliant. Well, let us know. What are you kind of bringing out? What have you planned to at least disclose to us in the audience? What are you working?

Dan:

on yeah, yeah, Okay, yeah, okay. So I mean on Insider we are. So, on the back of the relative success of the Blue Vanille, we have tackled Oud Imperial, which is a very grown-up like Oud, like quite a pungent but very grand Oud, and that has cost. I mean, that has basically bankrupted us, and so I'm now talking to you from the street so I'm hoping we can get that one to market fairly soon. We have recently released the Oud which was based on Roger Dove Ood, and we've got the Amber Ood See if you can guess what that one's based on and then we've got the Asgard of Magnetism, which I don't think we've come up with a name for yet, although I probably need to tell you about how we named. Do you know this story about how we come up with names for things? It's pathetic.

Myke:

Oh, I know how you came up with Insidious and I remember the….

Dan:

No, insidious was before we rebranded. So when we did the rebrand, it turned out it made a lot more sense for us to order like um, 20 different labels like uh at the same time. So it's much cheaper. So instead of saying, right, well, we've got these three perfumes, so we're going to order these three um uh sets of labels, we just let's just do 20. So we just made up names of perfumes. It's like ridiculous names of perfumes. So I think of one that's on the shelf I don't know what I was thinking, but one it was called Five a Day. I was like, right, let's just call that Five a Day. I was like, why let's just call that five a day? I was like why, it sounds all right, let's fucking do that, so we've. So at some point we will no doubt release a perfume called five a day. There's no good reason for it, other than we had to order labels like in bulk. I love it Honestly, do you? Do you have?

Ryan:

an idea, honestly, do you have an idea? Do you have an idea what that would be? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

Dan:

Go ahead, no, no, no. Madagascar was one that I sort of uh dreamt up and it happened to work. We were like looking through the list of available names that we had for this and it was like like Madagascar, that's brilliant, it's the actual vanilla, brilliant Done. So we were okay with that one, but five a day, I think that's going to be a struggle.

Myke:

Just put it on a random one, yeah.

Dan:

Yeah Well, we may well do so, and we've got a few more Soma things coming as well, because we sort of neglected SOMA a little bit and we try and put the.

Dan:

So SOMA is more about and we've done one or two original creations on. There's a bit of a story there. Actually, we've done one or two original creations on Insider and these are typically where we started out trying to create something and we've gone no, that doesn't work, it's terrible and we can't get it to work. But we could take this in this direction and create something slightly different and something new.

Dan:

So a lot of the ones which are, I think we've got three or four original creations. They sort of started off as attempts I can't even remember what and they smell nothing like those original sort of inspirations any longer. But because we sort of started with that in mind, they ended up being released as original creations through Insider, soma. Everything is, like you know, we try and develop absolutely everything as a totally original creation for Soma. So we've got three perfumes which are pretty well ready to go. I say pretty well ready. I am not happy with at least one of them and I'm still arguing with my business partner who insists that he thinks they are ready, but I'm not convinced they will take longer to get to market because the whole process is a lot more involved.

Myke:

Can you give us a little taste of what they're kind of like, what direction they're going in, or inspiration?

Dan:

behind it. Yeah, I mean so for the SOMA stuff, one of them which is ready I've probably got a sample around here somewhere. Yeah, this one we haven't decided on what we're going to call it yet, but it's got sort of a freshness, a fresh grapefruit, a little bit like the grapefruit you find in Roger Dove Elysium. It's not like Roger Dove Elysium, but if you imagine that grapefruit note with a little bit of incense, slightly smoky incense, and then a sort of ambery cedar base, it's very, very nice it's.

Dan:

I I can't tell how popular it's going to be, because I think this is more, um, I suppose what you'd call more niche than than some of the other stuff we've produced through through soma um. Another one is a, a very sort of um. It's quite heavy-handed, uh, floral iris kind of thing, um, which arguably some people are going to say that's quite feminine. I think it's very unisex, but again, much more and I use the word advisedly but but more niche, uh, you know, much more uh, much narrower appeal, I think, than a lot of the insider stuff I guess we can't.

Ryan:

Do you have names picked out for these either, or is that something we don't?

Dan:

no, well, uh, so we're debating that as well, um, but, um, we, we were actually gonna create a separate line, okay, and uh, not sure what that line is going to be called. You know, maybe it's going to be elegance was one of the words, but I'm not wild about it but but we're just going to really release them as one, two and three as part of that line.

Dan:

Oh, okay um, nice, so, um, and, and the idea being they, they basically all fit together. If you bought all three, you'd be covered for most occasions, kind of thing. Um, I it's. As you can tell, the thinking is not fully formed yet, right? Um, and we've been working on these for I mean christ, about a year already. So the odds are it'll be another year before any of them see the light of day. In fact, I'll bring them to milan. At that point, we should have, yeah, yeah, about about a year from now, we should have, uh, sample bottles.

Myke:

That's right yeah, that's uh, oh man. Oh, I was. I meant to ask you and I haven't uh perused the website. So do you no longer do 100 ml bottles of Insidious?

Dan:

We do not no, I get asked for them occasionally because we rebranded everything in the 50 ml bottles and we invested basically all of our money in essentially the bottles and the packaging and everything for the 50 ml. We have toyed with the idea of doing 100 ml's. But to do them and to make them consistent with the 50 ml's, I mean that's gonna yeah, it's gonna completely bankrupt us for for ages. And, honestly, the feedback from when we did the insidious in 100 ml it wasn't that popular for certain. People preferred to buy the 50 um and I think that's because it was relatively expensive and we're working on that. By the way, we are trying to get our prices down because I'm painfully aware that people are buying clones. They go this is very expensive um. We're trying to.

Myke:

We're trying yeah, that's a different beast, yeah.

Dan:

Agreed.

Myke:

Agreed.

Dan:

And we are trying to do that. But we're also trying to make the product cheaper. If we retooled for 100 ml, it's going to be five years before we can make anything cheaper, because we're not doing this with anyone else's money. We don't have investors or anything is money. We don't have investors or anything. This is all just uh, you know, we started this, this business, with kind of uh, about 10 000 pounds and um, we've got about 10 000 pounds. At the moment, we're fucking running really fast to stand still.

Myke:

It's really not great no, I mean it makes sense just from the production standpoint. You have to first source all the bottles and then you know label them and all that stuff. You have to almost like keep inventory, uh, whereas this it's kind of interchangeable, right. You have like the black bottles, the white bottles and then you're able to. You know they go with the different. So it makes sense. It's just, you know, I I kind of milk through those bottles pretty quick.

Dan:

I probably go 50. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know a few people have mentioned it, but uh, I just I it just doesn't work for us at the moment. Yeah, it makes sense, it's. It's amazing people. People say right, do you do discovery atomizers? Do you do discoveries? Uh, you know, must have had that question a thousand times. So we do discovery atomizers, do you do discoveries? I must have had that question a thousand times. So we do discovery atomizers. The minute you do discovery atomizers, do you do 2 mil samples? Yeah, yeah, what is it? You're like whatever I'm doing, you just want something else.

Myke:

Yes, that's exactly how it goes yeah, and yeah, they're never happy. I worked, uh, me and a friend started a business in a different industry and people would always say, well, if you'd produce this, then I would buy it. Like, you guys really need to produce this, I'm. And then we would, you know, create a prototype of that. And then they'd be like, well, no, we need you to add this, like if you just did this, instead, we're just like, we're not going to listen to you guys anymore because you can't make up your fucking minds yeah, no, not.

Dan:

Not that I mean something like that, but not that. Yeah, exactly something like that, yeah, not that just go with your gut.

Myke:

You're doing a good job on it. So, uh, what's your take on we were debating this at lunch, actually, ryan and I what's your take on gray market stuff from your perspective inside the industry, not just as a consumer?

Dan:

So I heard you asking like, where does the stuff come from? Oh yes, on the podcast. Um, I mean I'm sort of okay with with gray market stuff there's. So there's a distinction right between secondary markets and gray markets. So whenever I see on facebook or whatever a, a bottle of Insider or Soma for sale, just a little bit of me dies inside.

Dan:

I was like oh did you not love it enough to keep it? So the secondary markets, of course, but the actual grey markets where you get like a lot of testers and stuff, I feel like they tend to come from a few places. Firstly, you get these distributors. So a lot of brands, even quite big brands, don't have the capability to deal with every store that they want to sell to and, conversely, the big stores don't want to deal with every Tom, dick and Harry from every brand. They want to deal with a distributor. Right, so you'll get a distributor.

Dan:

There's a big distributor in the UK called Aspects and they essentially represent a lot of brands into retail stores. So the distributors a lot of stock passes through distributors and one of the things that they end up doing is giving promotional items and testers, particularly testers, go out to stores so they'll be allowed to. You know you ship to, let's say, you ship to Harrods. You ship 1,000 bowls of perfume. There will probably be 100 tester bottles to go with it, to put on the shop floor.

Dan:

If you're selling to a website, they also get the testers. They don't need the testers because nobody's going to their store to test them. So websites are then selling testers out the back door or some sort of middleman between the distributor and the website is going these people don't need the testers, I will sell them out the side. So you get a load of leakage out of the supply chain simply by virtue of it all being geared around this idea of testers. And a lot of companies actually don't need testers because they're purely digital suppliers. So that's how a load of testers get out into the market, um, and that's not to accuse any particular distributor or brand or whatever. There's perfectly legitimate ways that these things emerge as sort of gray market testers, um, and and suddenly they're for sale wherever you look. Right.

Myke:

Well, that's good. That kind of gives us a better understanding of it, because we've just been slowly piecing together what we assumed is how it went down.

Ryan:

Well, I mean, I guess Go ahead.

Dan:

Go ahead. Well, there may be other routes, but that certainly I have seen happen.

Ryan:

What about like non-tester items? I don't know if you know anything on that, but it's like you know they'll make it to a. You know? Let's say, we like a bottle of Credo by Nation A or something like that, and it's $150 on the site, but it's not a tester. Is that just they bought somebody's stock that wasn't selling, or something?

Dan:

Yeah, I mean. So that certainly happens a lot. I mean, um, the way the way perfume uh retailing tends to work is they talk about a buying coefficient. So, um, uh, if I'm a retailer and I'm buying, um, nishane fragrances, I will ask them for a coefficient of, let's say, three to one, which means I will pay them the retail price for one bottle but they will give me three. Okay, so three to one means that I'm essentially paying a third for each bottle and then whatever I can sell them for is profit.

Dan:

But because they don't price control, so, like Chanel, always price controlled very difficult to sell Chanel. You will find very few sort of gray market items. For Chanel they're very, very sort of stringent about price control. Niche R&A don't really care, or they don't have the capability to price control. Niche R&A don't really care, or they don't have the capability to price control. So they will sell this stuff at three to one or four to one in bulk or whatever. A five to one, I believe. Through distributors it can go up to. So essentially, people are paying 20 cents on the dollar for a bottle of this perfume and then anything they can sell it for above that is profit. Yeah, so why not sell it for $150? If they're not selling, sell it for $150. It's still profit.

Ryan:

I'm kind of asking you this, mike, but knowing this information does it make you feel better about the gray market?

Myke:

Look, I don't have anything against the gray market because I don't really have skin in the game other than the money I spend on a fragrance, and I don't love spending retail. But my point in the episode was that people like Chanel and Dior if they can help it or whoever Louis Vuitton, they don't want the overall perspective of the fragrances being devalued, and so they don't want the overall perspective of the fragrances being devalued, and so they don't want people selling the bottles for cheaper, because then people lessen the value of the product. Gotcha, and that was my thing.

Dan:

Yeah, that is absolutely true, and there was a huge number of Louis Vuitton testers that were available through these gray market sort of sources and they have really clamped down on that. So the market now for Louis Vuitton sort of grey market testers has completely dried up. If you see a tester these days, unless someone has swiped it from the shop floor, the odds are it's a fake. Oh yeah, and you know, interestingly again listening to that imagination episode I love the louis vuitton fragrances. I'm absolutely obsessed with them as a brand and part of me thinks part of me thinks that's because they've done this brilliantly aspirational thing and the price control. You cannot get them. Nobody's getting free bottles of Louis Vuitton. Well, someone probably is somewhere, but they represent this aspirational brand. Yeah, and I think that's sort of brilliant.

Dan:

You know, alan, is it Alan Richardson, the guy from Reacher? Oh, yeah, yeah, big guy, so big dude. Yeah, there's a, there's a video I've seen of him with a 200 ml bottle of imagination and he's going I could drink this stuff, this is my favorite. Just spray it all over, um, so yeah, there's a strong association.

Myke:

That's what I kind of feel like whenever I'm wearing imagination. I kind of feel like I look like that guy, even though I don't.

Dan:

Yeah yeah, yeah, feel feel about foot tall.

Ryan:

We just recently filmed a uh, would you like a shooting competition? Like you know, it's america guns, yeah, and uh, oh yeah, we both, we both show up like kind of like city slickers. We're like, I've got on my favorite fragrance it was a kajal fragrance and then he had on imagination and man even through like gunpowder and everything you could smell this guy all day long and people were like god, somebody smells good over here. They got like fucking ars on their back and shit I mean it's a great fragrance.

Myke:

I've been trying to wear it, you know, so that when we do the one I stand on it, that I can be like very versed in it. But I really did enjoy it. I thought it was a great fragrance. I was shocked, I was prepared to hate it. I love it.

Dan:

No, I absolutely love it, and there's a sort of stunning simplicity to it. Yes, I mean, I'm not sure if others get this, but to me it traces its sort of roots back to Chanel Allure Edition Blanche. I don't know if you know that one, but the Chanel Allure Edition Blanche, and then subsequently Zerjoff did one called Uden, and then Uden Overdose, and the imagination is like the perfection of that trajectory. So if you sort of put those in a line, they're getting increasingly evolved and perfect and imagination is like the zenith of that route. I love it Absolutely love it.

Myke:

Yeah Well, it was fantastic and that. To argue back to the grey market stuff, that's more what I was talking about. As a brand owner, I would be leery of it because you want people to value your brand. It's the reason why him and I both worked at an electronic store and you could not get a discount on Apple products. Like there's no way you could, because they controlled the price of that so much. It was easier to mark down the accessories, but then you don't specifically care about those things. So it's like when you really have your handle on what people are doing with the prices, it allows you to establish what the value of the brand is. That was kind of my argument. But me as a consumer, I'm like everyone who goes how cheap can I get it? I want it as cheap as possible.

Dan:

Yeah, and unfortunately, if you're looking to score anything less than retail, the odds are you're going to end up with a fake. These days, because they are so universally faked, I mean the fakes, by the way, are just mind-blowing. You know the new Amouage Outlands. They came with this three fragrances in the new Amouage bowls they're round with sort of knobbly bits on it. They're a complete departure. And they have these brilliant engraved plaques on the bottom and I thought, christ, this is cool. Maybe they've changed the bottle because people keep faking them.

Dan:

I swear to God, within about six weeks there's fakes on the market in China. You can order them from Teemu and they are. And they smell the same, they look more or less the same. I mean, they feel different. So the Amouage has this really kind of plush, ceramic sort of feel to it and the Timu fake. Me and my business partner bought one just to see what they were like and you can tell when you touch it, but to look at them. If they weren't next to each other it'd be really difficult to spot and so many people are getting had. And I think the same is true for the Louis Vuitton. I would always say to anyone who says well, where can I get a deal on this Louis Vuitton? I'd say don't bother, just buy at retail. Any saving you're going to make is not worth the risk of getting a fake.

Myke:

any saving you're going to make is not worth the risk of getting a fake, right? Yeah, especially because you're still going to probably cough up a little bit of money for those, even if it's heavily discounted still probably dropping 150 at least yeah, I mean it's.

Dan:

So the only way I think you're going to get a discount on on any of those is if you've got like a store-level discount, where they do like a 10% discount for anything you buy in the shop. You might get that. But honestly, I think they've done such a brilliant job with their branding. And I noticed you were talking about Jacques Cavalier and the line and the sort of Jacques Cavalier perfumes that he's done. I mean, he's done all of these Louis Vuitton perfumes and there's a sort of there's this through line, through that whole range, that you can just sort of sense. The same person created this and you know, as you step through this colorful sort of range of beautiful bottles, you go, yep, that feels like a logical progression. Go, yep, that feels like a logical progression. Yep, that feels like a logical progression. It's just there's something magical about it.

Myke:

Honestly, I think they're amazing, see we, we're right at like the cusp of leaning into this. We've started kind of looking at the perfumers and the lines that they've done, but it's like we we do this with cinema all the time we'll look at the body of work from a director and then we'll understand, yeah, yeah, and we haven't yet like translated that into fragrances. But I do think we're starting to kind of get there and, like you were saying, I like the passion behind that for you to see the trajectory of the art form and really appreciate it. And I think, as as we, slightly, we're getting educated in our uneducatedness, to slowly kind of get to the point, because it's not like I want to know the thing, but I want to appreciate the thing, like you just said, like there's something to that, to feel that and and have that passion behind it. It's inspiring.

Dan:

I mean, I think there are certain perfumers you can sort of sense this was probably done by that person, like you know. Certainly, a lot of the God, it's completely gone. Cecile Zerokian stuff, right, tends to be these kind of really big headbanger ambers with kind of smoky sort of notes. A lot of the Quentin Beach stuff now tends to be these very transparent sort of top notes with this kind of really bombastic sort of aroma, chemical base and stuff. So I think it is really interesting to see the body of work that perfumers do. But then often I'll look at a body of work by a perfumer and go, well, I can't see any connection whatsoever between these things. This is, like you know, this one's a paycheck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if you want to look at paycheck perfume, alberto Morales has an enormous catalog of really you know fragrances that he phoned in.

Myke:

Yeah, Do you have like you know, we have a couple of directors that we absolutely love. Do you have a couple of perfumers that are just like you're, just patiently awaiting the next thing that they do?

Dan:

um, so, so, my favorite perfume of all time, and and I'll I'll give you the simple answer. The simple answer is no, right, okay, and I'll tell you why my favorite.

Dan:

The simple answer is no right, and I'll tell you why. My favorite perfume of all time is Invasion Bar Bar by MDCI, and the perfumer is called Stephanie Bakush. I met Stephanie, she's absolutely wonderful. I had this absolute kind of fanboy moment. I was like get a photo of me and Stephanie. It's amazing. But I, every perfume she's made since then has been something of a disappointment to me, and so I, you know, I, I, I think I don't get excited about a perfumer's next release kind of thing. Um, and I think, and I think that's sort of somehow ruined it for me a little bit, I guess I might, I might get sort of excited about the next jack cavalier, just because it's probably going to be in-house again for, uh, louis vuitton and and so it'll no doubt be be brilliant, um, but no, I think the perfumer is almost it's almost secondary to kind of the creative direction of whatever oh that, yeah, that's a good thought too.

Myke:

Yeah, it's kind of. It's so. It's a wild world out there. They stand alone on their own, but then they can also kind of fit within a thing.

Dan:

Sorry.

Ryan:

Ron, you go ahead. Well, no, no, go ahead with your thought Go ahead.

Dan:

So, antoine, I don't know if it's Antoine Lee or Antoine Lai, but Antoine, I'll just call him Antoine. It's not like we're good mates. So he's done stuff for Les Indes Modables and he's done stuff for Eris, but as I understand it, he essentially set up his own company with his own palette of materials that he now does for all these different brands because, um you, you saw right, sometimes they're in-house and sometimes they're working for like a big fragrance house, like firminish or whatever, and typically it's one or the other. They're either kind of in-house or they work for firminish and they're asked to do a job. And what Antoine Lai did, as a sort of a mold breaker, if you like, is he set up his own fragrance house with his own palette of materials and stuff, and so he puts perfumes out under his own name or he does it for other brands, but he uses his own palette of materials rather than the Firminich brand or the in-house materials of the company he's working for. So he's quite interesting as a sort of study in someone who's doing it differently.

Ryan:

Well, two things really quick. First, I don't know if you realize this, but I feel like me and Mike feel pretty incredibly fucking stupid listening to you say these crazy, crazy names. So like eloquently easy.

Myke:

Yeah, I don't know if you've heard us attempt to say some of these.

Ryan:

It's brutal and insulting yeah, I like our apologies on, like mentioning perfumer names is honestly a legit apology because the worst. I can't even pronounce the first guy, jackus or something Jackass.

Myke:

I don't know, jack, what was it? Cavalier or something? Yeah, jacques, cavalier.

Ryan:

Yeah, jacques Lavagier, yeah, yeah.

Myke:

That's hard, that's perfect.

Dan:

Jacques Lavagier sounds like he works at the casino.

Ryan:

In another reality. But the other question, I mean it may be just such a stupid question, but I just thinking about you, talking about these different perfumers, thinking about the fragrances where they've had two and sometimes even three perfumers work on a fragrance. I'm wondering how that necessarily works, just like an overall, you know vibe check between them, like oh yeah, or is it like you know, no jack's going to handle the bass notes, you know?

Myke:

oh, it's probably some chain of command. Right, it's got to be somebody down here, and then they have like immediate you supervisor and then the supervisor to the supervisor yeah, I I don't know.

Dan:

I think it probably is, as you described, a sort of chain of command thing. I think also there's um, there's now this kind of um, this better transparency. So when you look at, uh, the creed perfumes, uh, previously they were all listed as erwin cre, which is like absolute fucking bullshit. He couldn't make a perfume. So now they list the perfumer but they say it's this perfumer and Irwin Creed. And it's absolute bullshit. It's just the perfumer. Irwin Creed is essentially getting his producer's credit by tagging his name on it. I think that's probably about it.

Ryan:

He might have been in the room watching them mix it yeah, eating like pistachios, hey, when are you going to be done with that? Yeah, he doesn't get any type of credit for that.

Dan:

Smoking his cigar.

Myke:

Yeah, you get this fucking done.

Dan:

No, I don't think he was. I think he famously just stole it all and represented it as his own work. There's a, there's a book called the ghost perfumer, I think it's called, where they sort of explode this, this kind of myth of the creed fragrance house, and I mean it's just. There's so much bullshittery involved yeah, I, I do.

Ryan:

I'm not gonna say this about creed, particularly because we're too broke to fight off lawsuits, but uh, I do feel like, let them sue us.

Myke:

Where are they gonna get this microphone I?

Ryan:

do feel like there are these. These brands will say like you know, it's been here since the queen the third and we've been doing this and it's like I don't know. Like I can, I can see where rolex has been around. We have like all this real proof and some of this stuff. I'm like, but where's the proof that they've been around for so long? You, you know.

Dan:

Yeah, I don't see it so.

Ryan:

I question it kind of immediately.

Dan:

So I mean certain brands can. So I think the two brands that spring to mind that could lay claim to some sort of proper legacy like that would be Hubigant. So Fougere Royale was one of the original, the first Fougere perfumes ever created. Well, I think it was the archetype, the original. And Guerlain so like Jiki I know, has been around since I think it was like 1907 or something saying like that, it's been around since forever. So so Golan and and, and definitely I would say real heritage, but creed, fake heritage, it's just you know, it's just, it's not, it's not true.

Dan:

Yeah, yeah, it's a story. It's a marketing story and so much of you know. To bring it sort of full circle to what we're talking about with roger dove earlier, so much of this is just marketing hype. You know it's marketing hoopla.

Ryan:

uh, sell a story um do you think some of these fragrances, do you think they could have stood alone, without the bullshit though?

Dan:

It's a great question and I honestly don't know. I don't know. I suspect, no, I suspect, you know, the bullshit sort of got them the foothold. But then you know, creed has been knocking out fragrances certainly for a long time, for sure, I mean not since, like you know, 16th century or anything ludicrous, but they certainly been doing a long time and I think the market was less crowded then. So these days to launch a brand very costly, very time consuming.

Dan:

I was talking to a guy the other day who knows, uh, thibaut, thibaut, crivelli, um, you know amazing crivelli line, um he was saying that the the plan, I believe I I mean, don't quote me on this but the plan was always that it was going to take five years to reach profitability because it's just such a competitive market out there and you've got to scale and scale and scale and scale and so to get to the top it takes a long time. So I think Creed probably enjoyed being around at the right time and maybe their bullshit story helped and stuff, but they certainly they certainly occurred in a time where it was less competitive.

Myke:

Gotcha. Yeah, I mean, that is everything, though. It's like you know, if you make the best whatever spaghetti in town, if people don't know about it, then you're not going to be profitable. The people got to get you get out there and buy it, you know. So yeah yeah, absolutely.

Dan:

But like I mean to almost any guy who's into fragrance almost anyone yeah, eventus will have been a significant sort of milestone in their sort of fragrance interest or enthusiasm, and so I don't think you can knock a lot of the fragrance. I mean, I know people like to have a go at Creed for being a load of bullshit artists and there's truth to that, but some of the perfumes are just fucking brilliant and Aventus just changed everything for me.

Myke:

Insidious changed everything for me. Well, there's a lot of ink on your back there, of course. Yeah, I gotta stand my guns here and uh and and stay behind it, but uh, but no, I mean, that's one that I preach the gospel of all the time. I feel like if anybody loves creed of ventus, they've got to try it, because, yeah, well, I you know, I've got to the, the last drippy drops of the 100 mil that, uh, we got from you. And then I went to doing my normal layering with the eventus and straight to heaven, and I was like after one day, I was like I'm just not gonna wear the same combo until I get some more insidious. It's just not the same. Yeah, it's just there's a you guys, you guys do it better, man, which?

Ryan:

is, which is why you're here today, dan for just pennies a day I'm very grateful and your, your uh royalties checks will be immediately.

Dan:

Yeah, on a sort of related note, if you would like to do some sort of giveaway on your Patreon or whatever for a bottle of the Madagascar, be more than happy to send that out to a winner, if you pick a winner.

Myke:

I'll tell you what. We'll pick a winner. Right now, I think we send it to Stephen Doyle 100%.

Ryan:

He's over there in your neighborhood.

Myke:

Yeah, he's in the UK, oh really yes, and we're rarely able to send stuff over that way and he joins our live streams all the time and we're always like, hey, one of you guys can win this bottle, unless you're Steven. Steven cannot win this bottle.

Dan:

Oh poor Steven that's not nice. Oh, okay, well, I'll tell you what. If you drop me Steven's details, I will fire him a bottle of Madagascar.

Ryan:

That would be amazing. Yeah, we'd love that man. Thank you so much for doing that. He's going to be pleased with that, I know him.

Myke:

Good yeah, we'll message him after this. It'll be late, we'll wake him up, but, man, thanks again for joining us and it's always a blast and you've really educated us on this episode 100%.

Dan:

Well, thank you, I try to. Please don't fact check anything I've said.

Myke:

Believe me, our audience is not doing that. They assume it's wrong.

Dan:

A very smart, a very smart. Well, thank you for having me. I I I've always enjoyed, uh, always enjoyed joining you guys and uh, hopefully I will actually make it to Milan next year and I won't have to just bitterly watch all the video footage via Instagram.

Myke:

I'm going to, like you know, like three months out. I'll be checking, dan. We still good to go Two months out, one month out, two weeks out, everything still good, absolutely Alright.

Dan:

Well, yeah, it'll happen.

Myke:

Well, thanks again, and, guys, thanks for joining us. If you're a patron, who knows, you may get to see some of this video, and until next time, spray it up, y'all.