Happily Even After Betrayal with Life Coach Jen

186: Tools To Navigate Hard Conversations After Infidelity

• Jennifer Townsend • Season 4 • Episode 186

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Hard conversations after betrayal can feel impossible—your heart races, your thoughts scatter, and the urge to win eclipses the need to heal. We break that cycle with a set of simple, powerful tools inspired by Jefferson Fisher’s “The Next Conversation,” adapted for life after infidelity. Our focus is on clarity over conflict: how to prepare internally, set boundaries that create safety, and keep talks on track without getting dragged into blame.

We start by grounding: naming emotions, breathing to regulate the nervous system, and choosing a goal for the conversation—facts, boundaries, or connection. From there, we introduce hard stops that replace harsh words, so you can exit escalations and return when both sides can speak like adults. You’ll learn how brief silence becomes a strength, preventing spirals and buying space to respond. Soft starts—kindness paired with clarity—lower defenses without excusing harm. And when shame blocks validation, we explain why your pain remains valid even if the other person can’t mirror it.

To avoid chaos, we lean on one-brick statements: tackle one topic at a time so you get real answers instead of circular arguments. We share phrases to keep focus, examples for redirecting gaslighting, and strategies to reset when the talk turns unproductive. Along the way, we emphasize practice in low-stakes settings and teach you to read words, tone, and body language as information—data that helps you decide your next step.

If betrayal has shaken your confidence, this conversation gives you structure and language to reclaim your voice. Subscribe for more tools, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show. Ready for hands-on support? Book a free call and let’s rebuild your next conversation with purpose. Jefferson Fishers Book link: https://www.amazon.com/Next-Conversation-Argue-Less-Talk/dp/B0DGQW15QF/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12JINHGY8FVWF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uAYL5YrmWDLo1z6pjB5yYRXDUv8W7gXo3aUkxYRPUuOjX9JkrthVJXXgOYcvtgRw1jH8tIGIHWDYmk33tCSKt-6u6fpj-4UWYjPkK-zlFU9Xg91y9TgzqAZQfM15iwGVi4WsjCThsahZZdhO1M0EUn_R-XirUOPfwbUmsQGikHVCVVmWUW7TxEFBX5HoxRXbMGBjUQIHpCXUPvty8jXb0UFvfghCN3GCCDzMLV2Wdpg.s0EX2Chj2uBpAcAFhJkwhafUR93BoynJKgZti7i3VVM&dib_tag=se&keywords=jefferson+fisher+communication+book&qid=1763951515&sprefix=jeffersin%2Caps%2C155&sr=8-1

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My website is www.lifecoachjen.com



SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to my podcast, Happily Even After. I'm Life Coach Jen. I'm passionate about helping people recover from betrayal. I read the intense emotional roller coaster and felt stuck and traumatized for years. It's the reason I became a trauma-informed certified life coach who helps people like you navigate their post-betrayal world. I have the tools, processes, and knowledge to help you not only heal from the betrayal, but create a healthy future. Today we begin to help you live happily even after. Hey friends, welcome to today's podcast. So today I want to talk to you about a book that maybe you've heard about. His name is Jefferson Fisher, and he wrote a book called The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And I listened to the book. I do own the book. I think it's great for me. I tend to listen to books. Anyways, regardless, I think it's such a great book. And I've started to tell my clients to get it because so often, especially when you've experienced betrayal, we need to have a lot of hard conversations. And if you are like me, who like to avoid hard conversations, who really struggle with having hard conversations, it's so great. He teaches you some tools to use and some tactics, especially if you're in a high conflict relationship. And so I think, even, of course, finding out your spouse has had an affair is very hard. But it's the conversations that follow feel like almost impossible. And so I just wanted to share some highlights about the book, and maybe it will intrigue you to go buy the book or get it or listen to it. I just think the more tools, I'm really passionate about teaching tools, because the more tools you have in your tool belt, you can navigate life so much easier. And it's just helpful to know, like, oh, I can do this. So, Jefferson Fisher, he is a trial lawyer in his profession, but he is an amazing communicator. And he just wrote a really helpful book. Obviously, most of us, I mean, if you are getting divorced, you probably have experience with going to court. But most of us in our daily lives just need to know how to talk to our kids, to people in our kids' school, our friends, our family, our spouses. And so these are just some great tools. And I think betrayal creates communication landmines, right? We get super defensive. Most of us shut down. We become reactive. We have a lot of distrust in our partner, ourselves, and other people. And so these tools are really helpful to learn. If you've been betrayed, you often feel unheard. You've probably been gaslit and you feel completely overwhelmed. And so having these practical tips and tricks can really be helpful, especially when your emotions are high. When your nervous system is completely in fight, flight, or freeze, this can help regulate you and get you out of that so you can have a coherent conversation. I think it's important as you are trying to find your voice and speak your truth to really learn how to be grounded and to find ways, you know, you might need to create boundaries to protect your peace. And if you don't know how to do it, it's important to figure out how and what works for you, because what works for you and what works for me might be different, but you've got to figure that out. Okay. So the first point that I'm going to talk about is the most important conversation happens internally before you speak to another person. And I agree with this so much because oftentimes, if we know we're going to go have a conversation to our spouse, you know, why you had the affair and get some questions, we have to set the tone inside of ourselves. And I think, I think the word triggered is such a buzzword right now. But it is, it's this feeling we get in our body. I get really jittery and nervous. So pay attention. Um, your body, you might feel hot. How you feel is important. How your body feels, that's your emotion. And I think it's really important to know like, okay, I'm getting ready to have this conversation. I'm feeling really nervous. And just naming the emotion can calm you down because that's part of feeling and processing your emotion is just to name it. I have a lot of anxiety. Like, I'm really anxious about having this conversation. I'm scared, right? Whatever you're feeling, naming it is important. And then breathing deep breath through your nose and out through your mouth. The exhale. Doing that several times is so important. It's just gonna calm you down and decide ahead of time what you're seeking to learn from your partner. Are you seeking to figure out, you know, get answers, timelines, create boundaries, just gather information, right? And so we need to know that. And so you go in with more confidence that, okay, this is what I'm gonna try to get from this person, right? That's important. But before you talk to the person who hurt you, talk to yourself. I think it's important to just like be like, you know, you're gonna be okay. Everything's gonna be okay. This is really devastating, but all I'm here to do is find out information about what happened. Are you trying to get connection, right? If you're trying to get connection, you've got to be thinking different thoughts, or are you just trying to get clarity or closure? So many people want closure. I think sometimes just knowing and realizing you're never gonna get closure, probably from the person that betrayed you. Oftentimes, now, sometimes if you're trying to work out your marriage, but if it ends in divorce, like I never got closure from my former spouse in the terms and how I wanted closure, I had to just get that from myself. And so understanding that ahead of time, you may not get the information that you want. You may not hear what you want to hear, but just knowing that can kind of help set the tone of how you feel. So I just think your intention matters, being very aware, breathing, and regulating and naming your emotion is the first step to having a difficult conversation. He talks about using hard stops, not harsh words. So having boundaries, saying things like, that's not helpful for me right now. I'm not going to continue this tone. So oftentimes when we're having a conversation, especially if we're we're talking to the person that had the affair, they're gonna probably get super defensive and then start blaming you, possibly, right? Or get really angry. And so you just have to decide, like, no, I'm not going to tolerate this tone, this language, this, you know, yelling. So if that happens, then what are you gonna do? Think about if that's common when you have difficult conversations, if your partner is just automatically starts yelling or, you know, saying horrible things to you, you can just get up and walk away and be like, when you settle down, when you can have an adult conversation with me, then I'll come back and have this conversation. That will keep you in the driver's seat and them in a position to decide. Like, okay, do they want to act like an adult or do they want to throw a tantrum like a two-year-old? After infidelity, it's common to feel like the cheating partner controls the conversation. And so I hear this so often. It's like, well, I'm just waiting for them to decide what they want to do. I'm like, no. Why are we waiting for them to decide? You can let them choose, but why aren't you choosing one as well? You get to choose. You have every right to make a choice. And not making a choice is a choice. And so you might as well make a decision and a choice. And it's not deciding like, oh, we need to get a divorce immediately. No, it's like, okay, I am choosing to create a boundary here, and I'm going to start my own healing journey and start healing so that I can make a better decision. So really knowing, like, no, you have just as much control of the conversation as they do. Saying things like, I hear you, but I won't continue if the tone stays, you stay in the blame, blaming me, right? It's never your fault. They might think it's your fault that they had the affair, but it's a hundred percent their choice. You can say things like, let's pause. I need some time to calm my nervous system down. Now they might be like, that's crazy, you're crazy, you're weird. Fine, let them say that. You stay in control of what you need, not if that bothers them or not. Andor something like, hey, I want to talk, but not like this. Maybe let's take 30 minutes, calm down, and let's regroup. So the more you can stay centered instead of feeding off their negative energy, the better for you and the better conversation you're going to have. The power of the pause. I loved this. Silence is a tool. So often people are very uncomfortable with silence. But in a difficult conversation, sometimes we need to have a moment of silence. After betrayal, it can feel scary, but it can also become your superpower. So just practice. Can I stay silent? Now it's not the silent treatment, it's just a moment, like seconds, just to sit in what they just said to you. So you're not reacting, you're responding. Pausing prevents spiraling, defensiveness, or saying things that you regret. And just think about conversations you've had in your past. We've all done it. We've all said things hurt people, hurt people, right? We've all said things that we just are reacting to what they said. We're getting defensive. But if you can just have a moment and pause and consider what do you want to say in that moment? It just will take three to five seconds. It's not like we're taking minutes here. We're just taking moments. When you feel yourself getting hot, like you feel your body like getting really amped up, your body is starting to go into fight. That's a trauma response. And so you can say things like, Hey, can you give me a second? And then do your breathing. When you feel like they're accusing you, right? Or, you know, you might be accusing them, but we're really focused on what they're doing to you. And you can just say, you know what, I want to answer that in a way that isn't defensive. So I need a second. So just if you hear something that you just immediately feel defensive about, you're allowed to take a moment, right? And it's can be really powerful. The next tool is lead with the soft heart. And I think this is why I really connected with Jefferson Fisher. So my whole life, I'm like, how does your heart feel? Is it soft or hard? And I think if you get familiar with your heart, you can tell the difference when you have a hard heart versus a soft heart. And the softer you can be in a really hard conversation. I know this is hard, but this is what adults do. We have hard conversations, right? We're not kids. We're not children. We are probably having some of the most important conversations of your entire marriage, especially after you've discovered betrayal. So have a soft heart. Start with kindness and clarity. A soft start doesn't excuse the betrayal, it just increases the odds of being heard. So you're not, you know, trying to be like, well, I'm just going to be kind to them, right? You're not a doormat. You're just choosing kindness over meanness, right? And there's a difference. Some examples you could say is, I want to talk about something hard. My goal isn't to fight, it's to understand, right? And that is hard because we're angry. Anger is an important emotion to feel, but not in the conversation. You need to get that out beforehand and not to people. I, so many people, yes, you feel angry. You're allowed to be angry, but you're not allowed to take it out on someone else. Like that's not okay. It's not appropriate. You've got to get that anger, release the anger in your car at the gym in healthy ways. Anger is a valid emotion, but it isn't okay to, you know, yell at our kids, yell at our spouse, even if they hurt us and had an affair. That's not the way to feel better and to heal. You could say something like, This conversation matters to me. I hope we can both stay calm. Softness, kindness can really disarm defensiveness and keep the conversation in adult mode, right? Like we're we're not kids, we're not, we're not two-year-olds. Like so many adults, I have experienced as well as heard, they have these tantrums, like they are toddlers or teenagers. And I think, okay, this is your marriage. You are in your 50s, you are in your 60s, and you're acting like you're three. And so if you have a spouse like this, just recognize this and try to change the narrative. Try to be like, okay, I'm gonna stay as calm and kind as possible. You may have to walk away, right? Because we don't want to turn into them, right? That's gonna be unhelpful. And that's not who you are. So try to avoid doing that. The next tip, which I think is very hard for people, you don't have to prove your point. I know that's very challenging in marriages. Someone we think someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. And I think that's just not a great way to view an argument or marriage or conflict. What if both of you are right and both of you are wrong? I think why arguments often escalate is because someone feels like if I win, I have to win the argument. I have to convince them, right? And that's just not the way of it. That's never gonna work. After infidelity, we oftentimes we want validation, we want accountability, we want answers. But sometimes our partner isn't willing to do that. And so, where else could we go to get validation, right? We want to choose wisely, right? But we need to find someone. That's why I love coaching so much. So often, it's like I can validate my clients, but also give them guidance so they don't just get stuck in, like, yes, I was this was wrong, but I'm gonna just stay stuck in as the victim. That's not healthy either. You don't have to convince them of your pain. You just have to know you have pain, right? Like people want so badly for someone else to feel their pain, and that just isn't always possible, right? As long as you know, yeah, this hurt me, this was devastating. Probably your spouse has a different kind of pain and a different whatever he's going, he or she's going through, what they are going through. And oftentimes they have shame, and shame really blocks all emotion from you know, feeling shame will keep you just stuck, and so you're unable to feel other emotions, and so they're just not gonna be able to feel it because usually people that have affairs have a lot of shame, okay? Just because they're unable to validate you doesn't mean your truth is less real, right? You have to validate you, you have to be okay, like it's okay, however, you feel is valid, right? So just know that. Know that it's okay, and they don't have to understand. Just know that this is your experience. You don't have to agree for it to be valid, right? So just because they're not gonna agree with you, possibly, and then also remind yourself, it's okay. I'm not having this conversation to try to win. I'm just trying to express how I feel and understand whatever you said is your objective, right? And so it's not about winning or losing, because honestly, if that is your objective, you're both gonna lose every time. Your marriage is losing, right? If that is how you go into arguments, it's not a win or lose. This is like trying to be vulnerable and connect and figure out what's going on. How did this damage happen? The next piece of advice he gives is stay on track with one brick statements. And I like, I just like his little ways he describes things. One brick at a time. I imagine betrayal, like I describe this to my clients that betrayal trauma is like a backpack full of a hundred bricks, and you're wearing that. And then you're living your life carrying this big backpack of all these really heavy bricks. And we can't just dump them out on the table all together. We have to look at one at a time, right? So during conversations, sometimes we derail the conversation, or because we're wanting to like say, these are the 500 things that you've done wrong, or what, right? We just got to start with one thing at a time. And it will really help from you know, trying to deflect or minimize someone's feelings or experiences, right? So one brick statements keep things focused. These are some examples. Right now I'm asking about the timeline, not anything else, right? Because sometimes it's like, okay, let's figure out the timeline before you start telling me what a horrible, you know, why I didn't give you enough attention. You think I'm not nice. This person hears me and just really thinks I'm amazing. That's why I had the affair. It's like, no, I need the timeline. So that's why it's really important to set goals, what you're looking for. Because otherwise it goes off on a tangent. You could use it as uh, you know how people like pass the, you could, you know, have a not really a brick, but something you're holding past the stick, right? And you're talking. It could be like, you know, the thing I want to talk about right now is honesty or what your values are, or our family, right? Like talk about one topic. Like, hey, I was under the impression that we were honest with each other. And clearly you've been lying to me for six months, and I'm just discovering this. Help me understand this. And you talk about that. Oftentimes, when you start talking about multiple things, which is why it's important, it's like you lose track of what you're even talking about. Have you ever had a fight or a conversation? It's like you were talking about one thing, and then by the end, you're talking about something else, and you didn't even get the first question answered. So you just really have to remember like, no, let's get back on track. We're talking about this brick. This is the brick we're talking about, not anything else until I feel, you know, resolved or whatever. Then you can move on to something else. So that's what he means by one brick statements. The next thing is what to do when a conversation turns unproductive. The thing is, we don't have control over everyone in the room, our spouse, but you get to control you, right? And so focusing on, okay, how can I stay in control of me? If your partner, right, you're trying all these tools and you're like, let me pull another one out. And they're like getting super defensive, they're angry, they're minimizing you or gaslighting you. You can exit, you can leave the room, you can take a pause, and you can try to redirect. Okay. And if none of that's working, try it again the next day or another time. But just always don't feed into their defensiveness, don't feed into their anger, don't start minimizing yourself. Stay strong and firm. Right? I'm telling you, this is going to take practice for all of us. I'm not going to participate in circular moments. Have you had a circular conversation before? It's nauseating, it's awful, it's torture. And I think every marriage has these moments. I know I for sure did. And I at the moment can't remember what they were even about. But many times it's because we get stuck in blame and shame. And so we feel shame, so we're going to blame it on someone else. And then they feel a shame and they're going to blame it on you. And it just goes back and forth whose fault it is. Okay. And so if you're in this trap, if you're in this circular moment, you can be like, wait, I'm done talking about this. Let's regroup. I'm willing to continue when we're both calm, right? It's a boundary. You don't have to have a conversation with a volatile person. It's okay to walk away. It's okay to say something. It doesn't mean you think you're better than them. It just means you're more in control of yourself and your emotions and you're acting like an adult. I won't talk when I'm being interrupted. Now, I know this about me. I'm a huge interrupter. It is, I think I've learned it's kind of a trauma response, right? It's kind of a part of me that feels I've been unheard for so long that I have to jump in and say something. So it's something I'm always working on. But he always says the first time someone interrupts, don't say anything. Just continue on. And if they continue interrupting, then you could say something. And then chances are that person is gonna stop. That's usually what happened with me. My former spouse, he used to just jump on me the moment I interrupted me and would be very negative about it, right? He wouldn't like be like not understanding at all. And so then I, of course, would get more upset. So I think the more you can understand, they're not interrupting me to be rude. Usually, now some people do interrupt to be rude, but it just might be their how they were raised. Who knows? I'm not making excuses for it. I'm just letting you know this is a possibility. So if you struggle with conversations, having difficult conversations, learning some of these tools and just experimenting with them. I love the idea of experimentation on all sorts of things in life because when we learn a new skill, we have to practice it. And so maybe start practicing it with your kids or with someone at work and see if you get results. Because obviously, if you're getting results, you're going to want to try to do that more often. And it can really help you have more confidence in having difficult conversations and maybe not even calling them difficult, right? Sometimes when we go into thinking, like, oh my gosh, this is like our marriage depends on this conversation, right? The truth will prevail, right? It puts so much pressure on us. And so maybe going into it with curiosity, like, hey, I'm just gonna see what I can find out, what information that I'm hoping to find out, and how they respond to you gives you so much information too, right? Are they getting defensive? Are they feeling bad and remorseful for what they did? Their body language, how they react to you and respond to you is so important. That's information. What they say and what they don't say is all information. So I think curiosity, like I'm just here to gather information. That's what I tell my clients. I'm like, you can ask them and figure out what they say and figure out what, you know, how they respond is good information. Anyways, so I hope this was helpful. The key takeaways I want you to have from this are you're not powerless in difficult conversations, especially about betrayal. You have power. You can communicate clearly even when your relationship is uncertain, right? Just know, like you're just there to learn, get information, and you can do it. Boundaries create safety, not control. So so often people say, boundaries, um, you're just trying to control me. No, you're just trying to keep yourself safe. The goal isn't to convince, it's to express and protect your peace. So I think that's important to remember. If betrayal has made conversations feel impossible, I can help you regain your voice. Book a free call with me today. I'll put the link in the show notes as well as go by the book. It's really gonna help you. And I'll also link Jefferson Fisher's book in my show notes as well. Have a beautiful week, and I will talk to you next week. If you want to learn how to live happily even after, sign up for my email at hello at lifecoachgen with onen.com. Follow me on Instagram and Facebook at happily even after coach. Let's work together to create your happily even after.