Building everything around values - with Chris Younger of Class VI

Chris is the Co-Founder of Class VI Partners, which is a financial advisory firm for founders. They have advised on over $2.5bn worth of deals with the single biggest being half a billion.

Picture this: it's 2005, and Chris and his co-founder, armed with ambition and experience, burst onto the investment banking scene, ready to conquer the cutthroat competition. The pressure was on. 

The task at hand? Building an entire business from scratch, while convincing sceptical business owners to trust them and have faith in their promises. 

But wait, what's that? A fateful introduction, a golden opportunity to assist in raising funds for a real estate fund. Sure, this wasn’t their planned target client or focus, but why not give it a shot? But it didn't quite pan out as expected. And now they had to decide whether to give the money back which would have to come from their own pockets.

Would they both agree on what was the right thing to do?

In this episode we discuss,

• Sharing similar values in business - with your partner, your team and your clients;
• Building a company from the ground up;
• Why being patient and enjoying the process are playing a key part in the long-term success of a company.

Despite early-stage failures, Chris learnt an important lesson about values alignment and working ethically  — tune in to hear how he learnt the importance of morals, making the right decisions and how the right partnership can impact the success of a business.

More from James:

Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com

Transcript

James: So I'm delighted to welcome today to the show Chris. Chris is the co-founder of Class six partners at their financial advisors, four founders. They've advised an over two and a half billion dollars worth of deals with the single biggest being half a billion. Welcome, Chris.

Chris: Thanks so much, James. Appreciate it.

James: So you built a very, very big and successful business with Class six. But we are going back to a moment in my coaching time machine when things weren't quite so rosy. When are, when are we going back to.

Chris: let's go back to 2007. Um, that's when, uh, my partner David Tolson and I, uh, took on a client we probably shouldn't have.

James: Wow, this is gonna be an interesting industry moment to go back to. Okay. So you, if you set the scene for listeners, we're back to 2007, how, how important was this client to you at this time?

Chris: uh, just to put in a little context, we had started our business in 2005. We were, we started it as an investment bank. So we were helping, trying to help business owners, you know, at some point exit their business. And, uh, as you might expect, We hadn't done any deals. I had done a lot of transactions before, but never as an advisor. And so it took a long time for us to really start to build the business and to get, uh, business owners, you know, willing to trust us and put their faith in us. And, uh, a guy was introduced to us by our attorney, who he wasn't running a business, he was trying to raise a real estate fund and asked if we could. Help him raise money for the real estate fund, which not, not having a lot of clients at the time. We, uh, we said, you know, hey, here's, we've never done this before. We think the process is pretty similar to the process that we use for companies, and we think we can help you. And so, uh, his name was Jay. Jay, you know, paid us a retainer and we got to work and, uh, really kind of failed miserably.

We, um, I think we had maybe one or two investors, and those could have been family members. so, you know, we, we worked on this for probably six months and again, didn't deliver very good results. So we went, uh, I went. To David and I said, I, and look, we're, we've got 25,000 in the, in the bank, we need to refund 40,000 of his retainer cuz we just, we haven't delivered our end of the bargain.

And. Uh, without hesitating, David said, yep. He said, I'm, here's my check for 7,500. I wrote my check for 7,500 and we refunded the money. Uh, so it was a, you know, somewhat humiliating day at, at one level, but also it was great confirmation number one that I had picked the right business partner. I think it really set the stage for us as a firm, which is you're just never gonna go wrong. Doing the right thing, even though it may cost you money in the short term. And, um, you know, we've had lots and lots of opport when you're in the transaction business. Lots of things come up and misunderstandings happened and, uh, you know, we've, I think from that experience, you know, we learned that, uh, you know, take a long view of relationships and take a long view of doing the right thing.

And he usually ends up working out pretty well. Uh, for, for a period of time there, Jay was a reference for us, you know, basically telling people what good guys we were. So it, it definitely helped us, although it hurt at, in the, uh, in the short term,

James: Yes. I mean, so, so, so leading up to that moment then, when you, you had this realization that, that it wasn't quite working and this was like your first. First big deal. You've been going for a couple of years. You're still trying to build reputation. I mean, looking back on it, it makes going, oh, well, it was, it was obviously the right thing to do cause you've built a successful business.

Chris: So, 

James: But how, how did that feel and kind of lead up to that, that moment, this kind of realization that it's wasn't, it wasn't working and this might be what needed to happen.

Chris: Well, I don't know how many phone calls we had made to different family offices and high net worth investors, but you know, hundreds and when I. You know, just not having success, right? When we're not generating the

level of interest or people that were willing to write checks for the fund. You know, after two or three months, four months of doing that, you start to figure out, hey, we're either not talking to the right people. Or we are, uh, just not very good at convincing them about the, the merits of the fund. The fund was a really good fund, and it did really well and performed very well. So it was, it was a, you know, it was a great, opportunity for investors, but we, again, just, we, we were not very effective at being able to market it.

James: going into that meeting with your business partner, did you have any inclination as to how he, he might respond?

Chris: You know, I had known David for, at that point, probably three years. And so I had, I had a pretty good sense for how he was gonna respond. And, um, he responded exactly the way that I expected, which is, Hey, we're, we're gonna do the right thing. And even though it hurts, and, um, you know, David always had a phrase of, you know, if you, you take care of your clients, they're gonna take care of you.

But yeah, it was, significant confirmation for me that I, I was definitely partnering with the right guy,

James: what do you think you would've done if the response had been different? So let, let's say you got into that room and the response had been, oh, I'm not sure. 

Chris: Oh. 

James: or no? I, we, we don't have the money in the bank. We'll, we'll either give them part of it back or we, we just can't afford to do this.

Chris: I think, I mean in terms from my perspective, I, and again, I, I would've been very surprised if that had happened. But if, if that had happened or if it were a different person

and that was a reaction, I think I probably would've just said, Hey, I'll, I'll loan the extra 7,500 to the business and the business can pay me back down the road, but this is something we need to do, and.

fortunately, I, I didn't have to make that decision and quite frankly, have never had to make that decision. It's always been, um, you know, you, uh, we, we get to watch a lot of business partnerships in our work. And, you know, I can say certainly without hesitation, you know, the, the partnership that David and I've had over the last 20 years has been, uh, as good or better than any of the ones that I've ever witnessed, and we've seen a lot.

James: And and what and what do you think makes that so strong? So clearly like shared values clearly is, is, is a strong part of this cuz I work as a coach with quite a few co-founder pairings and there's often communication so, Needs, needs some work on to really bring it to life. What, what do you think makes you guys such a strong pair?

Chris: Part of it is values alignment. Um, we were always in lockstep. Um, I also think, uh, it's kinda like in a marriage, uh, we both have a pretty good sense of humor and so, you know, even when things were not going well, which, you know, we, it's a business, so you always have those periods. You know, we were able to. Laugh about it, laugh at ourselves. Um, I think, you know, the, the, the three core values in our firm are hustle, humility, and relationships. And so in particular that the humility and the relationships piece, I think played a big piece in our ability to not just get along, but, um, you know, we just, we have. It, it has been such a great relationship in the sense that when things aren't going well for one of us, you know, the other one's there to, you know, to provide support, to provide, you know, uh, uh, encouragement, but also just to be able to laugh about what's going on. Um, you know, I think we, even when we had significant challenges, I think we all both recognize, you know, let's, let's put this all in perspective and, and, um, so I think there's. Uh, I think there was a lot, just the, the fact that, you know, we never took ourselves or the business too seriously. And, um, and we always were, we, you know, we were in it because this is what we like doing and we wanted to have fun with it. And, um, you know, we both said, and fortunately this has not turned out to be the case.

Hey, when this stops being fun, we're gonna stop doing it. But we're still having a lot of fun. And, um, it's that ab your, your observation about communication is really, really important. And you know, it's interesting. I I would say we, we've definitely had disagreements, right?

Or different perspectives, but we've never really had an argument

in the sense of, hey, one of us walking away feeling like, boy, he just doesn't hear me. Or, uh, I feel like we've gotta do something different. Um, and it's, like I said, been, it's a huge asset when you have a business partner who, cuz we do look at things differently and we do. I think we view the world differently. We solve problems differently. We manage deals differently. And I think that's been a huge asset to both the two of us as well as to our firm because they get to see different examples of what can work.

And, uh, you know, we've just, from our temperament to our skill sets, to the way we approach problems, I think we compliment each other really well and we recognize and value that.

Um, I think sometimes you, you see partners get into a problem where somebody. It doesn't, doesn't value what the other partner brings. So that's a big problem, um, because that's always gonna get manifested in a lack of respect or a lack of regard. And we've just, you know, we've never had that. It's been, um, like I said, we're, I count myself and I hope David does as well.

Just really, really lucky.

James: Well, we'll, we'll get him on next week and find out, um, the, uh, so, but was it, was it like this from the very beginning? So it is interesting cause you said that you started the business together, but you, you didn't know each other before you started it. Is that, is that right?

Chris: Yeah, we, I was, in my prior life, I was running a communications company and I was, uh, a chair of an industry. Organization in DC and David's aunt was the executive director of that organization and she said, Hey, you really need to meet my nephew. He lives literally two miles from you in Colorado. Um, at the time we were really busy trying to turn this communications company or around, so I, I, uh, said, that's great, Mary.

Uh, you know, maybe later. And then once we sold the company, she said, Hey, you really need to meet David. And so we met and um, we just, we really hit it off. And We both share a similarly twisted sense of humor and, and we had fun working together.

And, and when you have all of that together, it's probably rare and it's also, it's just a lot of fun.

James: And how did, how did you identify that? Because it feel, I mean, you, you, you're, you're going into a relationship with someone that you've only just met. You're going into a period of like three years by the sound of things, when things took out to the ground. You hit your first, like you hit your first sort of big success point and it turned out not, not to be that way.

And yet you still like, you almost, you hit these, these hard, this hard beginning with no like sort of relationship captain the bank. You hadn't known each other for three years, you hadn't been friends, you never like, and yet you stay together. So I'm I think I'd be curious like what was it that gave you that sense of, of strength almost from the beginning do you think?

Chris: Uh, it's a great question and I, as I reflect on it, I think a lot of it had to do with, you know, we were both willing to work hard. again, when things were challenging, you know, neither one of us took a day off or, backed away. We were always there to support one another. And, and I do think, you know, when you are trying to grow a business, and particularly a services business like this, where the revenue streams are elongated significantly, you're right, there's a lot of patients that's required. Um, and I think, and I always tell our, uh, clients this as well, you know, if you've been in business a long time, you generally are gonna have a pretty good sense of people. You're gonna have a pretty good gut instinct about good person, bad person, aligned or not aligned. And I just think that through all the work that we had done together, uh, I think both of us just felt, hey, we, we were really, really well aligned and, um, And I do think when you have those challenges and then you get to see how people react to those challenges, you know, some people can react really, really negatively or point fingers or blame or, and we just never had that.

It was always, yep, we're in this together and we're gonna, we're gonna fight our way through this, and hey, here's some other ideas about how we might be able to, to attack this. And, and I think that's been true for the. Um, you know, the, the last 20 years is when we've had an issue. When it, when it's clearly been my fault, I've made a poor decision. Uh, you know, David's never come and said, oh my God, that was just a horrible decision. Why did you do that? It was, Hey, here's where we are and we've made this decision together and here's how we're gonna go. Here's how we're gonna go try to resolve it. you know, there's a phrase, it's amazing how much can get done if no one cares who gets the credit. I also think it's amazing how much can get done when, when no one cares to, you know, to cast

blame. And, uh, like I said, I've, I've made some horrible decisions in the course of our business and, uh, to his credit, right? He's never, he's never called me to the carpet, or, uh, at least to my face, called me stupid.

I'm sure behind my back

maybe, but, 

James: But I think, I think what's really nice about it is it sounds like at each, at each. Crisis moment or each sort of moment of difficulty, you have positively surprised each other is what 

Chris: Oh, for sure, for sure. I, you know, it's funny, I tell my kids, uh, they're older now and, you know, starting to date seriously and all that. I said, Hey, go on a backpacking trip with your girlfriend or boyfriend. Um, because you know, when you backpack, there are lots of unexpected turns and twists and things that you didn't plan for.

And, uh, and a lot of stuff doesn't go right. So, And that'll give you a really, really good window into, Hey, how are you going to be together when things aren't going well? Either with the marriage itself or something externally, you're gonna get a sense for, Hey, is that person, are they there to support you?

And are they there to lift you up and be your biggest fan? Or are they blaming, pointing fingers, complaining? And uh, and I think, you know, Starting a business is no different. And um, like I said with David, it's been, you know, just, hey, when something needs to get done, we're both there to, to pull the or, which has been awesome.

James: And and do you think it's purely been about these positive surprise moments, like building trust in terms of each time it goes wrong going, oh no, this, this guy's really got my back. Or has there, do you think it's been stuff you've been actively doing to build the relationship as well?

Chris: We, um, It's a great question. I mean, we, we did a lot of stuff socially together. Uh, we're both big mountain bikers. Uh, someday I can tell you the story about him teaching me to mountain bike. Um, he's not a great teacher, by the way. I have the scars to prove it. Uh, but, um, I, I do think it was just this, Hey, we both. Had this vision for what we wanted the business to be. We had this vision for who we wanted to be with our clients, and and we built that kind of shared value system over time. Um, we, uh, I re I remember we were doing this deal down in New Mexico, middle of nowhere, and so we, we had to fly into, I think it was El Paso. And then drive about three hours. And that's when we really hashed out kind of our mission. You know, we, we were asking ourselves, Hey, why are we doing this? What, what, what is attractive about this? And, you know, at one level working on deals is it's fun. You know, you've working on transaction and getting a transaction close.

There's, you know, uh, there's, that's a really nice high that you get when you, when you do that. But what we concluded was we were really here because we just loved entrepreneurs. That was our why we loved entrepreneurs and what they do for our communities and uh, what they mean to our economy. Um, and they're just fun people to hang out with. And, but it was that, that road trip when we kind of came up with that mission and said, yeah, this is why we're doing what we're doing. And that's

been true to this day. And. 

If you talk to our team, you know, we're always telling good why stories. Hey, here's what this client of ours just did with the money that we helped them,

you know, harvest out of their business.

And, um, and we calculated so stat we're really, really proud of. We calculated that across our entire client base. They've donated over 250 million, which is, um, you know, back into the community, which is really, I mean, that's just

incredible. 

James: That's amazing. And also I really like that. Why? It's actually quite similar to my why, like in terms of, I do agree like entrepreneurs. They give out so much and they get so little support like it's a con. It is, it's awesome being a founder, but you're constantly giving out energy and there are not many people that give energy back to founders.

Chris: I, I think people, number one, I think it's very difficult to appreciate the, The 20 year overnight success that entrepreneurs or founders go through, the, when you're the last person to get

paid, when you're writing checks into the business, when you've gotta deal with the stress of feeding, you know, 30, 50, a hundred, 200 families. Um, most people see the end result, Hey, when somebody's been successful, uh, a lot of people don't see when a founder hasn't been successful. And obviously a lot of 'em aren't.

And so the, their willingness to take risks, their willingness to put literally everything on the line, you know, it's, uh, you know, I live in Colorado and, you know, probably 60 or 70% of our economy is driven by those entrepreneurs.

And if they're not willing to do that, then, you know, we don't, we don't have an economy,

so it's. Uh, to your point, I think it's, it's important for us as a community and as a society to support them in any way we can. And so we feel in our small way, Hey, we're, we're hopefully helping them.

James: And I think also it's, it's, it's the, sometimes people see the sort of the financials success, but don't see the personal cost. I mean, that is definitely a trend that's kinda like, we're so, we're so brainwashed thing that you have to like, have to throw everything at it and. Like there's a lot of family cost, personal cost, health cost, mental health cost that comes with, which doesn't always necessarily need to come with it.

It's not, it's not necessary to have that, to have the financial success.

Chris: I, I totally agree with that. And I think the, you know, when you,

um, 

James: I. 

Chris: Uh, the very best founders, uh, I think do, they're, they're much more balanced. Um, and they're, I think as a result, they're much more willing to hire a team and build the business the right way. Um, but we've, we've absolutely seen the opposite where the founders. Basically trying to do everything and, um, you know, and it'll kill 'em,

uh, over time because it's just, that's a lot of stress to carry and a lot of work to carry. And if your life is that out of balance. So, um, I think that's right. And I think the, what's fascinating, at least for the clients that we've chosen to work with, what's fascinating is just how generous they are.

So they've

worked all these years. To build this business. We have one client, Mike Hester, who, um, he sold his business and did very well, and then he and his wife Kfi, uh, sat down one day and basically wrote checks to almost every employee in their business that had been with them for longer than a year. Uh, to thank them for all the work that they had done to, uh, to help support the business over those

years. And we've seen this, that movie or that story over and over and over again of how I think the best entrepreneurs recognize that it's, it wasn't just them

and they're, you know, c they're willing to share and willing to give back, which is, uh, it's just, it's back to your why. When you have stories like that, that you can tell, it's pretty easy to get people motivated to help 'em.

James: Did did you expect that to be the case when you very first started? Um,

Chris: Um, in my prior life, I had acquired, uh, 27 companies doing a roll up, and so I had, I had seen some of that. I wouldn't say all 27 of those founders was that generous, but a lot of them were.

And, and it's, I do think that, uh, You, you tend to attract people that do share similar values. And so I, I, I know as a firm, you know, we value that, we value, uh, uh, you know, when, again, one of our core values is

humility.

And part of humility is understanding that you, hey, your, your job as a leader is not for all those folks to serve you. Your job as a leader is to serve all those

folks. Um, you know, you, you have a heavy responsibility. Uh, as a leader to, to make sure you take care of the, of the team and to, you know, make the very best decisions you can on every behalf. And so I think I had seen it, and again, maybe it's just because of the clients that we select, but we, I just see it in almost every deal, just how. Generous, uh, and humble. These founders are when, you know, again, after they've cashed a big check and, you know, supposedly won, you know, they're, they're just so willing to give back, which is, it's just, it's great to see.

James: I, I agree that it probably like, like attracts like, like if your, if your values are firm, values are humility, hustle, and relationship, it is likely that message is gonna attract a certain type of founder.

Chris: It. I think it's absolutely true, and I think we've learned over time the types of questions to ask to, to make sure, right, that hey, this is gonna be a good fit. There's nothing worse than entering into a business relationship where you don't have shared values. Because especially in the transaction business, it's very stressful. There's a lot of work that goes into it and, um, that, that work is just so much easier and it's so much less stressful if you've got great alignment with your clients. we love it when we hear. Hey, somebody's had an outside advisor for a long period of time. You know, that indicates to us that they value that collaboration, that they value that relationship. Um, we love when the entrepreneur, you know, one of their very first questions to us is, Hey, how do I take care of my team in all of this and what's the right strategy to take care

of them, whether financially or otherwise? And so from that perspective, it's uh, we probably do self-select clients.

Uh, I know we've turned away clients where we felt this isn't gonna be a great fit. Um, and so, you know, that's one of the reasons why, again, we're we kinda have this love affair with all of our clients, which is awesome.

James: I dunno how you feel, but I feel like reasonableness on track, like is, is a, is a really underrated trait. Like I, so I had done, I bought a company before myself. It's like the one thing that really attracted to the, to the person, to the company I bought was actually during the negotiation. It was a really reasonable negotiation.

I find that play out in many discussions with like partners or things. It's very underrated, but if you couldn't, if, if you have those discussions and people are reasonable and they like don't hold to like dogmatic points of view and they're willing to move, life is just so much easier. Is that something that you've, you've seen.

Chris: Yeah, it, it, I think there, and I think there's two pieces to it, right? I think there's, um, I. We've definitely had clients that I would not put quote in the reasonable category, meaning they were so committed to what they were trying to accomplish that nothing was gonna get in their

way. And those are definitely harder transactions to do just because hey, they're just, they're gonna be unyielding. Um, I, I would say the, the transactions that are easier, right? Is somebody who's much more practical and understands Yeah, there are. It's like any disagreement, there are two sides, right? And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And that's definitely true in, in the transaction game as well, in terms of, you know, uh, kind of, Hey, what is the fair position here?

And it's likely something in between,

James: Hmm. What come you're buying and selling a business? Like what? What are you actually buying and selling? It's not like you're saying as a can of Coke, It can move.

Chris: Yep. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, the, the, the best thing that we can do is to try to make what is a really, really inefficient market. The, you know, the private capital markets more efficient for our clients. Hey, how do we find those folks that are gonna. Share the same enthusiasm and outlook for your, for your business as you do. And if you do that, they're likely gonna be the highest bidder because they see the same things.

Um, a lot of times, you know, we'll talk to business owners and they'll say, well, I don't necessarily need the highest bid. I want the best fit. What we've learned over time is, Actually, when you have a really, really good fit between buyer and seller, those valuations tend to be the highest.

And it makes sense because if you and I value the same things, I'm gonna perceive less risk in your business than if you and I had radically different value systems or looked at the world differently. And so a lot of times you don't necessarily need to sacrifice dollar value for fit because a lot of times they go hand in hand.

James: I think that's a really nice insight. Cause it sounds like you have, you have built your business. Fundamentally around an an amazing values alignment with your co-founder. You are selecting clients based on value fit with the values that you've selected for each other, and then you help them select acquisition partners based on values fit.

So it flows through incredibly nicely.

Chris: I, there's been a lot of study on, uh, happiness in life and. Uh, one of the most significant determinants of whether you're gonna be happy in your life or not is just the quality of the relationships that you have. And so what I've always told our team is, look, if we do a great job of, uh, picking people for our firm, where. Our values are gonna be aligned, and we're gonna really enjoy working with one another, and we're gonna build quality relationships and we pick clients where that same alignment and kind of relationship satisfaction exists. Hey, we're we're gonna fill a big chunk of our waking hours with great relationships, and hopefully that leads to more satisfaction and happiness for all of us. And it's definitely been true. We do a big client event every year up in Beaver Creek, Colorado, where we invite all of our prior clients and all of our existing clients and it, uh, it's our favorite weekend of the year cuz you get to go. You see all these people that you've built these great relationships with, and you get to introduce them to one another. Um, and it's uh, you know, we call it the classic six Love fest. I mean, it's just a, it's a, it's just a really, really fun weekend of good feelings and good people. And, uh, um, I said hard to describe just how, how much satisfaction we get out of that weekend.

James: I just, I just think I, I could imagine it. I mean, I, I can really like, given that you're building everything around values, it feels well, values alignment plus lots of positive outcomes. 

Chris: Yeah. Yeah, 

James: you, you, you've got people, you've got people ready to mingle.

Chris: Yeah. Lots of open bars too, so that helps.

James: Well, Chris, The power of values alignment I think has really come through today. Like values, like with partner values, alignment with client, and even values alignment with the purchasers. Having taken like this, look back at this moment and talked about your co-founder so positively is, is there anything that's come up for you today?

Chris: It's a great, it's a great question. I think probably the, the biggest thing for me and. Uh, is just how lucky I've been. Um, you know, lucky to make that connection with David. Lucky that our values were in, in close alignment. Lucky that we, we've been able to attract the type of talent we have to our firm that shares those same values. Uh, lucky that we've been able to attract the clients that we have. And so, um, Hey, do I do I think we do a good job at what we do. I do. I think we're, I think we, we have a lot of care for our clients and a lot of care and, uh, to make sure that they get what they deserve. Um, but I also, I think like a lot of founders just recognize the role of fortuity and, um, you know, if you kind of rewind through all of that, obviously there are lots of things that could have gone a different direction. Um, and, uh, You know, we've, uh, we've certainly made bad decisions. Um, but you know, overall it's, like I said, I, I count ourselves just incredibly, incredibly fortunate. So that's, uh, today's been a good reminder of that for me.

James: Oh, that's so nice. I think just, again, just reinforce message that if you wanna build something great, it's gonna take longer than you think, but stick to your values and it'll build. It'll build over time. Like if you try and chase success, you might get a bit of growth but fall off. But actually, if you hold true to your values, especially when financially, it might be harder.

Harder than not, over time. You get the rewards 

Chris: for sure. Yeah, they, uh, I can't, I'm trying to remember where I read this. I'm gonna have to find this, but it talks about, you know, a tree in the forest. That grows underneath its mother tree, will grow much more slowly. It'll take more time for it to get the light that it needs, um, than a tree that's sitting by itself, you know, out in the middle of a field. That tree will grow a lot faster. the tree that grows a lot faster will actually be a lot weaker

tree, um, because it hasn't had time to really kind of build that strength. The wood will be softer, it'll be more, uh, susceptible to disease and pests versus the tree that grows in the forest. It grows much more slowly and obviously more deliberately.

And I think that's true for a lot of companies as well, where I. To your point, being thoughtful, being, uh, being disciplined about around your values and living accord in accordance with those, yeah, you're gonna sacrifice some opportunities to potentially speed forward, but I think ultimately you're gonna have a much, much stronger business and you'll be happier with it.

James: I think that's a really nice takeaway point, like build around your values. It might take a bit longer, you'll enjoy the journey more. You'll be happier, and ultimately they'll be a great reward.

Chris: For sure, for sure.

James: Amazing. Chris, thank you so much for today. That was brilliant.

Chris: Well, thank you James, for what you're doing for founders out there. As we talked about, it's, it's really, really important that we give those folks as much support and love and care and advice as we can. And uh, again, thanks for doing what you're doing for

'em. 

James: My pleasure.