How Do You Hold Your Co-Founder Accountable? | Peer Effect Post Bag

Anna's question sounds straightforward. It isn't. James and Freddie break down why founders only start asking this question when they already know something is off - and what to actually do about it.

One question. Three conversations hiding inside it. If you're in a co-founder relationship that's starting to creak under the weight of scale, this is the episode to listen to before the conversation you've been avoiding.

More from James:

Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Pure Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson, joined by Freddie Burley. We ask for your questions, and Freddie and I are going to tackle them together. These aren't theoretical case studies. It's the stuff keeping you up at 2 a.m. Let's get answering. So, welcome to the Pure Effect Postbag. This is where we answer founder questions. I'm James Johnson. And I'm Freddie Burley. So, Freddie, what have you been up to this week?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

What have I been up to this week? Well, I was actually completely knocked out by COVID, which feels, frankly, quite retro to get it in 2026. And also, I've never tested positive or had any of the symptoms before. And so I think it might be my first, my first COVID case, which is quite, quite exciting, but also quite brutal. So I was properly wiped out. So I'm I'm kind of no fun at the moment. That's my that's my big that's my big update from the week. Yeah, I'm I'm zero fun. I've been isolated. I'm buzzing to be out in the wild again. So that's that's my update.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Did you have any of the sort of weird symptoms that that came with it before? Like clearly had tiredness, anything else?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, I had all of the I can't taste, I can't smell, which is absolutely brutal. I love food and not being able to taste. You can kind of taste around the food, which is even weirder. I can kind of taste if it's salty or if it's slightly sweet and um and I like a temperature and all the flu stuff and just grim. It was grisly. It was really grisly. Have you had it?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Not seriously. I don't think I did I have it. I don't think I did have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I mean, maybe because I was isolating pre pre is pre-isolation.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, exactly. It's just drew myself to big isolation, so I never got it. Fair enough. But it is, it is quite brutal. Um, but this week's question um is from Anna. And she's asked, how do I hold my co-founders accountable?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Oh, Anna. Yeah. I almost hear three questions in one with this question. I suppose what I'm hearing is like, uh, can I hold my co-founders accountable? Alongside how do I hold them accountable? And almost maybe a bit of fear of like, what happens if they're not accountable? Yeah. What then? And so I maybe it's worth looking at all three. I don't know whether that sounds sensible to you, Freddie.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, that sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

So I think that first one of like, can I? I mean, clearly I think you can hold anyone accountable. I think you can hold like your peers accountable, like people you report into, you can hold them accountable, people that sort of you can hold your investors accountable. I think accountability does not sort of come like you don't have to be senior to someone to hold them accountable. Um, how they respond to it, I suppose, is something else. But I think it's a reasonable expectation as a human to be able to hold other people accountable. And I think when it comes to like the how, it's it's the same as holding someone who reports you accountable. It's kind of being clear around your expectation, checking in whether they're comfortable, what they're committing to, and then coming back to them say, Have they done it? Like I I really think it's that simple. But I do think it starts with that mindset of just giving yourself permission to hold someone else accountable. And if you're if you are very clear, then you're removing the excuses that they have around not delivering. Because often people go, Oh, I didn't realize, I didn't have enough time. I didn't like you hear the excuses a lot, but it's like, but we we had a conversation about it. It was very clear what was expected, the time frame was committed. What is now your reason for not delivering?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, and as you're sharing, it may it just makes you think in very simple terms, it's just it's expectation setting. And it requires a level of maturity in many ways to be able to be explicit about your expectations. And it's not about seniority and positioning, it's often just about how do we create alignment and how do we set ourselves up to be as successful as we can long term. And often this question for me comes up more in coaching when a team's transitioning from kind of below 20 through to kind of 25 plus, and there's this feeling of we were all peers. And amongst our co-founders, we were all real peers, and now I'm feeling more like the source, or I'm the CEO, and I actually do need to be more of a manager-style role to my co-founders or my co-founder, and they're kind of starting to report into me almost, is what it feels like. And so often that question comes up in coaching with my founders when there's a transition and there's a shift in the dynamics of like rural equals and peers to actually we're transitioning into more of a serious grown-up company, or it's starting to feel real, or it's starting to feel like our product actually works and we've got traction and now we're really growing quickly. And so the dynamic in our relationship is shifting. That's when this question comes up most for me in coaching. But for you, where when do you see this?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I I totally agree. I think it's I think it is that. I think it's either where there's a transition or it comes from realizing that actually maybe you for this next stage of the journey, some people aren't necessarily on board for it. And that's okay. I mean, I think that happens whether you're in a sort of a co-founder dynamic or like a key employee dynamic. Not everyone that got you to where you are is right for the next stage because they're like they might have the right skills, they met their life may have changed, their appetite may have changed, they may want something different. And so I think rechecking in on that and just going, like, are we all still clear on the vision? Are we all still bought into it? And are we in now in the right roles to do that next phase where the sort of the transition bit comes in? Yeah. But I do think checking in on the first two is quite powerful as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And and often I think the people start worrying about accountability when they know people are underperforming. And there's this feeling of the only way to get them to perform well is if they do what I say, or the only way to get them to perform well is if they actually like it's this kind of controlling feeling that comes in. And so you end up being or becoming more of a manager than you do an enabler or an aspiring partner. And I think underneath that is just like very explicit conversation around like what are expectations from both sides, and are you still on board with where we're going and where we're heading and what we need to be creating? And I think that can be um, it can be tough because often you're avoiding more explicit expectation setting conversations because you kind of know what the answer is already. Um, and you know there's misalignment and you don't want that misalignment to be true.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Which I think goes back to that sort of the third question that's this this one triggers for them. It's kind of like do you not think your co-founders will be held accountable? Like, are they are they not delivering? Do you feel that they're not going to deliver? Do you is there a fear that you've kind of reached a stage with them that actually there there might need to be a change? And that could be okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Totally. And sometimes you can see it in them before they can see it themselves, of like you can see the burnout in them, or you can see the misalignment, or you can see the kind of avoidance, and you're still like really leaning in and driving things ahead and you're watching them not do that. And that can be really disorientating and and quite tough amongst everything else that you're managing as a founder and building.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah. And I also think that when you're looking at that next stage, you talked about that shift from like 2025. I do think the companies do need that person to step up and be the CEO and get further ahead. Because in those early stages, you are just surviving and you are responsive and you are head down. Like there is some longer-term view, but you're you're pivoting and you're making those changes. Actually, being quite flat, everyone doing stuff works. But I think as you move into that scaling phase, someone needs to be three months, six months, twelve months ahead. Yeah. And connecting that to what you're doing today. Yeah. And that means sort of having a clear vision, having a clear plan, making sure everyone's coordinated, not breaking off into site. Like that is a very valuable role. Otherwise, the whole business is just very responsive. And so done right, I feel it can be a real gift to that business because suddenly you're like, okay, everyone has clarity on what they're working on for the next three months, which is which is an amazing gift to give your team. So maybe some of the fear around, oh, my co-founders won't be accountable, actually, they might be missing that. Like that you know, we could flip on its head and go, I'm not there to sort of hold their feet to the fire. I am there to give them the gift of like, here's what you can work on for the next three months that's super valuable, that aligns everyone else. And if that doesn't work out, at least you've removed the excuse because the clarity was there. And you'll see, then you'll see, can they perform or can they not?

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yes, a hundred percent. And then your role also becomes how do I set up the environment so that people, the right people will thrive.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

That's also quite confronting for you because it requires you to step up. So, in that equation of how do I hold my co-founders accountable, it's also how do you hold yourself accountable to grow into the leader that the company needs for the next stage of stage of growth, which in itself is can be scary. Um, and you're constantly operating at your edge and likely never done it before and in this way and in this shape and in this time. And so um, I often find it interesting whenever you're you're projecting how do I do this for other people, starting with how do I do it for myself in in almost like the most courageous way. And then what you'll see is as you embody that in yourself more, you'll see it mirrored in in the people around you and your team.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah. I think courageous is a nice word because you are stepping away from something that you're good at often. It's like, oh, I've been, I don't know, whether it's product or sales or something, like to create the space and time to be the CEO. 100%. You are gonna need to not spend time doing something else, which probably gave you control, validation, satisfaction, it's like your self-image, like so much stuff in there. And you've got to move into a new role where you're probably not as good at it, you're less experienced, you feel exposed. That is tru tough. So I think courageous is a really nice word to use here.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, there's a lot to take away in in yeah, and what you've shared and in the framing of the questions too for people. Um, and like what I hear kind of high level is like A, how do you become as explicit as possible with your expectations in your co-founder dynamic? How do you also speak to the fact that all of you are gonna need to grow as the company scales and you're gonna need to grow ahead of what's happening? And how do you also help them see the future and about where you're heading and the role that each of you are playing within that? And then also as a human being, how do you how do you stay grounded in where you are going and holding yourself to that kind of bar so that you can be courageous in in your growth as well? Um there's a lot there. What do you what are you taking away?

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I think it's like what are you holding people accountable to? I think can we can sort of sound like it's a one-way thing. It's kind of I need this from you, you do this for me. And I'm not sure that's really what it is. I think it's a mutual commitment done right, and therefore it can be a peer-to-peer thing. And I I think maybe it's having the conversation with co-founders and going, okay, how does this work for you? Like, what does positive accountability look like? What does like so it's almost like you get permission to do it explicitly?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yes. And everyone's bought into why you're doing it and how it's going to serve each of you.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And I think probably then checking back in on it regularly, particularly in that initial transition, just to check how it's going. Yeah. I think it's one thing to say, oh, one of us needs to do this. Yeah. And oh yeah, it'd be great if you did. But I think the practicality of actually doing it it will change the relationship a bit. Because it probably does it probably will start feeling more one way rather than truly peer, because really if one person is stepping up to that role, they are slightly first among equals.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah. And people's egos get involved and people get scared and like it that can make it clunkier.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah. So I think just handling the change carefully. Mind you, I still think let's say if you do move to that structure and you're the CTO or a different role, you can still hold the CEO accountable. I again I don't I don't think this is like a the CEO is the one that holds you accountable. Yeah. I think if the CEO, for example, doesn't do a doesn't deliver a clear plan, as the CTO, you'd be going, This is what we need from you.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

This is what we need from you. Yes, totally. This is missing. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

When when can we have this buy? Yeah. So I I really do see it as a as a peer even someone junior serious, like someone reporting serious, if there is if there's something that's unclear or something missing, I was saying it'd be useful for you to this is what I need from you. Yeah. Is that a reasonable expectation? And when can I expect it by? Yeah. Um, so again, I just I really think that accountability is a is a two-way thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah. And also that we all need it as humans to grow. And it also comes back to like, we're not islands and we exist and we grow best with alongside other people. Yeah. And having when you have like rooted in trust, but like strong boundaries and strong accountability, it helps everyone get better. Yeah. And so again, it's like how you frame it and how you communicate it so that people can receive it and understand it and actually like act on it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

I feel there's a lot to say this, but good good luck with it. I think it's just start having the conversation, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Well, that's it for this week. We will see you next week for another episode and happy scaling.