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Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
You’ve survived to £1m, now let’s scale to £10m+.
Peer Effect
Why You Compete With Your Co-Founder
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James and Freddie tackle a question most founders won't say out loud: feeling insecure or competitive with your co-founder. They get into what's actually driving it, the conversation that fixes it faster than any amount of self-reflection, and the point where the answer isn't a better conversation, it's a different partnership. Including the feedback ratio behind every high performing team and relationship that lasts.
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Welcome to the Pure Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson, joined by Freddie Burley. We ask for your questions, and Freddie and I are going to tackle them together. These aren't theoretical case studies, it's the stuff keeping you up at 2 a.m. Let's get answering. Welcome to the Pure Effect post bag. I'm James Johnson.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Freddie Burley. Exciting. Um, how are you? What's been going on this week?
SPEAKER_00I'm glad, glad to get through the heat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's so warm.
unknownIt's so warm.
SPEAKER_01Hopefully we'll have a nice glow today with any sweat.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But I actually I've taken this last week to a bit of a deload week, I realised, and it was kind of driven by by Jim, but kind of realized that I was just feeling tired going into sessions. I was like, I need a I need a week off my time PT and was like, oh, that's a great idea. But I sort of carried that through outside as well. And it's reminded me this the the impact. And now having had that weekend and coming back into stuff, just feel I'm I'm approaching things better and fresher and with like a new perspective. It's that sense of like you can't take the time is always a fallacy. Like taking time always pays dividends. Providing not taking time every week. Oh, it's not a D-load. It's a D-Load quarter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can I can really relate. A couple of weeks ago, I needed a bit of space and I actually ended up having a few things cancelled. And so it kind of created the space and I just didn't fill it. And it just feels I felt so much more restored and like connected and clear. And it just made the next week so much better. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Another coach once said to me, because it can be frustrated when people cancel stuff. Yeah. He was like, what they've really done is they've given you the gift of time. Totally. And that's just a really nice framing because sometimes instincts like I get frustrated, like, oh, someone's cancelled on me. And then I just go, actually, I've suddenly got half an hour, an hour, two hours back. Is that she's beautiful?
SPEAKER_01No, totally no 100%. I that's exactly what I can't remember where I heard that as well, but I it really resonated for me. And now when someone cancels, it's like it's out of your control. So it's just like, oh, what can I fill this time with now? It's like free time. Yeah. What can I do? It's like playtime. Love it.
SPEAKER_00Well, we've got a question from Beth. And the question is, I feel insecure and competitive with my co-founder, which is distracting. How do I shift this?
SPEAKER_01I think this is actually a lot more common than people talk about. I think, especially for a lot of kind of a-type, high performing, looking for ways to feel like they're progressing, and often then directing that to whether it's their because they no longer have like a boss. So like they're the boss. And so they can then direct it to their co-founders or sometimes project it on their investors or sometimes their team. And for me, I think the first thing is like it's really normal, it's very human. You're just looking for a sense of, am I doing a good job? And wanting that sense of certainty that you are doing a good job. And in previous seasons, maybe you perceive good performance relative to other people. But often when you're founding, like you've created the game and the rules and everything. And so it can be quite hard to discern when is good good enough. Um, a few things I find helpful, especially when it's directed to your co-founder, is A, like acknowledging and noticing it. It's often a signal that you're not owning your contribution. So there's this sense in that that you're projecting onto them that that that whatever they're good at, which is typically something that's complementary to you, not the same as you, is better than. And then equally being like, how is it us against the problem as opposed to us against each other? One of my uh mentors once described relationships in sort of three tiers, um, a guy called Gal Stiglitz, and he said, lowest form of relationship is conflict, um, middle form of relationship is competition, and the highest form of relationship is collaboration. And to be truly collaborative, we've got to be aware of what we bring to the table and what we don't, and aware of what the other person brings to the table and also doesn't, so that we can own both our strengths and our differences and help it be complementary and therefore collaborative and more productive. So that's that's often what I see. And then there can also be a bit of an exercise around having that conversation with your co-founder. So sometimes the vulnerable thing is to actually just be like, I'm noticing I'm feeling competitive. Um, and it's actually because I desire to know I'm going a good job. Like I desire to be contributing in a meaningful way, or for you to respect me, or for you to think that I'm, yeah, I'm succeeding, or that you're excited to be working with me. Can we have a conversation about like what our roles are respectively and what good enough means to both of us and how we measure that? And it can actually be a really bonding experience, just kind of putting your hands up and being like, this is how I'm feeling, this is how I want to feel. How can we get there together? And so again, it becomes more of like you guys against the problem as opposed to you guys against each other.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like we're saying there's almost like there's there's potentially driven by insecurity, maybe also lack of valuing what you're contributing more than driven by what your co-founder is doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But maybe there's also a lack of clarity as well. Like what does good look like collectively, but also individually?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And sometimes the answer could be you're noticing that you're working on menial tasks, or you're just in kind of execution mode and you're actually not like at your edge or being kind of out of your comfort zone. You're kind of safe and playing safe, and therefore your contribution you're noticing is like, actually, I'm I'm not stretching myself, I'm not contributing meaningfully. How can I have that conversation too? So I often just see it as like a signal for realignment, a signal for like a deeper sense of understanding yourself and how you contribute, deeper sense of clarity and and then kind of courage in having a hard conversation or a vulnerable conversation, courage to actually then re-readjust what you're spending your time and energy onto.
SPEAKER_00I suppose it can feel like, oh, I shouldn't need validation or I shouldn't need recognition, but we're human, right?
SPEAKER_01All humans do. And I think it's such a fine line between I think all humans deserve and need to feel appreciated. We're psychologically evolved to existing groups, and to existing groups, we need to know that like I'm part of the group, I contribute to the group. And so I think desiring appreciation or like a sense of validation is deeply human, but you can also give it to yourself and you can also use your like communication skills to figure out what is valuable, align on what's valuable, and then focus on that too.
SPEAKER_00Maybe also a good point to start there is sort of showing appreciation for your co-founder. Oh, it's sort of weird thing to say. Like if you're feeling like you're feeling competitive, maybe start noticing what they're doing well and verbalizing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because then maybe that might trigger them to do the same back, or even if that's just quite a nice thing to do.
SPEAKER_01Totally. There's a lot of research around giving feedback too that if your ratios are four to one, both in like successful marriages and high-performing teams, um, if you are four times as appreciative as you are either constructive feedback-wise or negative, that's generally how relationships net evolve. Um, but I totally agree. Like whatever you want to receive from your co-founder, if you can be good at modeling it yourself, often then you'll see it mirrored back at you.
SPEAKER_00I really like that four to one point. I haven't I haven't seen that research, but it's like I can I can totally intuitively also makes sense when you think about it, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting because you you trick me there is I'm not necessarily a believer in kind of the traditional shit sandwich in terms of positive feedback, negative feedback, positive feedback. Yeah. I I feel it's more the way I understood that is if you are generally noticing people doing well and appreciating them, when you do have to land a message which is constructive or negative or just harder to hear, yeah, someone's much more likely to be in a safe space to appreciate it. So we try and cheat that with the idea of kind of a shit sandwich and go good, bad, good. But actually we're just mudging the waters.
SPEAKER_01I couldn't agree more. It's like a little too late almost. You have to set the context up. And that that feeling, if someone's appreciating you, often you trust them more because you're like, oh, they've got my back, they're looking for my good, as opposed to the other feeling of like they're just looking for my faults. And if someone is only ever criticizing us, it just doesn't land well. It's like unripe soil to hear to hear more on constructive feedback.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What do you see with your clients when it comes to like noticing competition between co-founders or a sense of insecurity?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think that clarity point that you raise is a big one in terms of people not clear what their roles are, then it's kind of you get this tension around the edges, like, is this me, is this you? Do I need to like not having clear-defined objective and clear-defined roles means that you're having to have a lot of sort of conversations on the around the edge of like, can I do this? Can I not? Which most founders like to have control. And as soon as they feel that they don't, I think that creates a sense of tension anyway. Yeah. But I think when we get tired, it's much harder to put ourselves in a positive mental space anyway. So I think that self-care bit is really important. Whether you're a solo founder or co-founder, I think that plays out. So your team will experience that or your co-founder will experience that. But I do think inside of work and outside of work, approaching things with an sort of abundance mindset and appreciation. Yeah. And I was once told, like, if you can often you might feel something positive, but verbalise it. And I think that's really powerful, just sharing things as they come to you, particularly if you appreciate it and saying out loud and and giving really specific positive feedback and say, Oh, that was a good job, going, saying why it was a good job or what behaviour it was that you want to see more of is really helpful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I find the specificity of it makes it feel much more genuine because sometimes when it's just like, oh, good job, it feels so ambiguous that people aren't sure what part was a good job or the impact of said job. And it lands differently when someone's like, When you did this, this was the impact. That was great, thank you so much, or I saw this quality in you, or like something that feels real and personal. And and also I think that builds trust too, because they know you're not bullshitting or they know you're not just like for the vibes, making stuff off and being like, Great job. It's it's not really, I don't think it lands in the same way.
SPEAKER_00I I think the other thing that I've seen, which I think is worth being aware of, is like we we've talked about so far, like what you can control yourself, which I think is really important, and we've talked then about what you can do as a pair in terms of clarity, et cetera. But I do think that sometimes you are feeling insecure or competitive or underappreciated because of the behavior of your co-founder. And that is not something that is driven by you, it's actually driven by their behaviour. And I think a starting point for me, particularly this is a change, like something's changed. Going back to your point about having a conversation, I think that's a really valuable conversation to have because that might be indicative of in the same ways that you might be feeling insecure, they might be going through stuff. Yeah. I mean, we've both experienced founders. I mean it's it's a it's a very tough journey and it does have personal impacts. And like people do break up outside of work or they do develop sort of alcohol dependency or drug dependency or health crisis or health crisis or something. So I think when you start noticing a change of behaviour, I think it's worth being curious and actually finding out what's what's driving that, and it could can be from the other person.
SPEAKER_01That's such a good point. And again, coming back to what's in your control, if it's if it's a noticeable shift, uh articulating that. And I do find that simple things like when you do X, I felt why I wanted to check in and see if you're okay or what's been going on, or I've noticed a change, and just like speaking to them equally. I often think in communication, especially when it's around an area where both people are triggered. So if they're behaving in a new way and you found it triggering or you took it personally for whatever reason, coming back to that to just openly and honestly be like, This is this is how I'm feeling, what's going on, or I'm worried about you, I'm concerned. And so you can have a very open, honest, vulnerable conversation.
SPEAKER_00And and I think you can have that conversation and you're and then you get stage where you're comfortable that you've done all you can and you had the conversation, and then there's still something there in that dynamic and you're feeling insecure or it feels out of balance or something. Yeah, that may take you down the path that actually that's not the right pairing for you. Like just because you've made a co-founder commitment doesn't necessarily mean that sort of you've made the right one. Yeah. And I think it's worth acknowledging that as well, going, not bailing on early, but going, if I can't feel secure and empowered, and the best version of me is telling up this, and I feel I've done everything I can to make this work, then maybe it's not me, but maybe it's this dynamic relationship, in which case I need to exit from it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a hundred percent. And and also speaking to the person who's in the other shoe, the person who's maybe overly negative or is criticizing their co-founder a lot. Often it's because they're it's because they're feeling worried or they're feeling anxious or they're feeling like this is the best way, consciously or subconsciously, to help this person change or help them improve. And and they just, it's almost like um it's just like using a hammer on a nail in the same, same, same way and expecting different outcomes. And I think sometimes for that person noticing, okay, when I criticize them, like how effective is that strategy? Does their behavior actually change off the back of me doing this? Um, because often people just assume, like, well, I've given them the feedback, so they should change. And actually, like being adaptable and noticing that if you keep criticizing someone in a certain way over and over again, it's highly likely that the relationship will become unsustainable. So also that person taking responsibility for their behavior and being like, me being like this in this dynamic is likely to result in a negative outcome all around. So is there, and even it's so hard to manage your frustrations under all the pressure, et cetera. But but kind of taking responsibility for that and coming back to can I change how I'm approaching this or how I'm communicating this so the person can actually receive it and then net net we can get a better outcome between us.
SPEAKER_00I think my takeaway from this is it's not there's not a simple answer, like it could be you, it could be them, it could be both of you.
SPEAKER_01And best to like communicate it, communicate about it and around it, and then figure out a solution together.
SPEAKER_00Well, this has been a great episode. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.
