How To Actually Take A Holiday As A Scaling Founder

Elena's question this week: "I feel like I can't go on holiday." James and Freddie don't treat it as a work-life balance question. They treat it as a test most founders are avoiding.

They get into what a real week away actually reveals about your management team, and why booking it two months out changes whether you'll actually go through with it. Book it before you talk yourself out of it again.

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Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Pure Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson, joined by Freddie Burley. We ask for your questions, and Freddie and I are going to tackle them together. These aren't theoretical case studies, it's the stuff keeping you up at 2 a.m. Let's get answering. Welcome to Peer Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson. I'm Freddie Burley. So Freddie, what's been going on for you this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

I've been doing a lot of traveling. Um and actually shifted how I approach travel in a way.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

First class all the way.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Never look back, baby.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Left turn only. I used to use travel time as like, okay, it's perfect time to work and be quite focused of like get on get on the flight or get on the train, like get my laptop out, yeah, noise cancelling headphones on and just like kind of lock in. Reflecting on it actually wasn't that productive. And I kind of used to resent it a bit. I actually love flying. And I started experimenting with having like no expectation of working on flights, but having something I want to read and something, something meaningful I want to read, and having like my journal or my for writing. And I found actually it's been really creative reflection time. And I don't know what it is about movement or like looking out the window, being in between spaces, but I find it, it's like you're out of your typical routine. I just feel so creatively tapped in and like I have new ideas and new reflections, and I just I find it really generative. So that's been that's been interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I just went to Bristol the other week and I was, I mean, it's kind of a lot of trains sort of here and there, but I agree. Actually, I listened to podcasts about podcasts, kind of meta. It's at the moment. But it was actually really you say, like you're kind of different scenery's changing, yeah. You're kind of moving around and you're kind of because I've I've never I've never had the desire to work on planes. I've I've I think I've always seen that as time that I just can't.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yeah, fair.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

But I like what you're saying in terms of bringing it back into like some productive time or a different form, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

It's like reflection, learning time. And I'm it's like I'm much more permeable to it than sometimes just doing it, like doing the same kind of reflection or learning at home. I I always feel distracted by other things or often feel distracted. Whereas when I'm traveling, it's completely new context, completely new environment. So it's almost like I'm more permeable to new information.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I think also you know you're stuck. You're you're moving, but you're stuck, I suppose. You're like you're not getting off the plane early.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And so, or a train early, and therefore you know you've got quite a fixed time where you could listen to or watch something for an hour, two hours. I like what you're saying about like choosing once in advance what you're going to explore. Yeah. That's really nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, no, I've really enjoyed it. So that's been that's felt good. That's felt really good. Um, so this week's question is from Elena. I feel like I can't go on holiday thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

It's tying into kind of what we're talking about. It really is. I I think there are two angles that approach this, one of which is what stage are you in your business? Because I think there are certain stages of business where it's very hard to go away. Like if you're if you're in the sort of startup phase and file phase, if you're not there, stuff's probably not going to get done to the to the same extent. So, but given we're largely sort of talking to scale up founders, I I would say that if you feel that you can't go away, that's probably a reflection on either your leadership style or the team that you've built. Like really, I think as a as a sort of a scale, you should be three months ahead, in which case the next three months should sort of be taken care of by the team. In which case, if you can't take two weeks out, even a month out, I would say that's a a warning sign. I mean, stuff is going to come up, like you will miss stuff by being away for time. But so if you feel like you can't go on holiday, I would say there's probably something executionally team that it that could be explored. Or if it's a sense of the more time I spend, the more pro I make. I think maybe we're not acknowledging the importance of that the time to reflect, the time to recharge, the new thoughts you have, as we talked about earlier, like in a different environment. Like there's some real benefits, like business benefits to thinking, planning, creativity. So wait, so it is rest time, but it's productive rest time.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

I totally agree. And I think even in those early, early stages, having maybe even if you can't go on, if you don't feel like you can go on holiday yet, even taking a week where you work remotely and you work from somewhere that's like sunny, you can do some kind of whether it's like surfing or running or like something alongside the building, and also plan more strategic thinking, reflection time, clarity time, so that it can still be like you're creating and net contributing, but you are disconnecting from your typical like day-to-day routine. You're trying to invest a bit more in your health, in your body, in feeling good. So that when you come back, you're you feel recharged in and either recharged about the vision, recharged in your body. So think almost about it like a bit of a health reset.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

And like more strategic thinking, bigger picture, team reflection, just more reflection time than like execution time. And it can be really hard to unplug. And often what I find too is in that week, you'll get clear about what is and isn't working in your company by how much people rely on you. And and sometimes it's just like, especially in the weeks in the lead up, being like, I'm gonna take a week out where I am I'm non-contactable in theory. And I and I you'll be amazed by the people on your team who actually then step up because you're like, I want you to make decisions. And I know there's a difference between theory and practice, and people in your team will need you likely in that week, but at least starting to see okay, what which people will step up in the team and which people still require we we haven't set them up to to be able to be more independent. And so it can also be quite a good test.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, it's really nice. Like, what are you who are you uncovering in your team who surprises you by going, oh wow, that given a bit more space?

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yeah, they can thrive.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I think the type of holiday is also potentially important. Like there's a difference between going like for a week and doing a yoga thing and going for a walk or going tennis camp or dance retreat or something and going to Magalu for a week. Or Ibita.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I would actually find it so iconic if someone's like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go reset in Magalu for a week. Like you wild, wild creature.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So I think I think there are some like to have that space to reflect the thing, and like your brain needs to be somewhat unbroken.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

The one thing I would say though is I think if some people like a few days of total disconnection, and like whether it's dance like in a completely new environment and just really going for it, and then having a couple of days to reset, sometimes that total sense of disconnection I think can help you then re-engage or re-see things differently. But I guess all humans recharge differently. So if you recharge and magaloof, then all power to you, frankly. I want to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

But also, I think it's different like recharging and distraction. Yeah. Because I I think of back to some of my behavior from I was a fan and like doing things like extreme endurance event stuff. If that sometimes can feel like something which is helpful and healthy, but like with all things founders, it's taken to a level whereby it potentially isn't. It's more about distraction and sort of it feels like something you can control and it blocks stuff out, yeah, but actually you finish it and you are more tired than than than you were. And actually, then you're you're really pushing yourself at work and you're really pushing yourself at play. And they both feel like good, good things. I'm working really hard, I'm training really hard, but taken to the level and actually you're not giving your body any space to recover.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

And I think for most people it takes kind of pushing that to the extremes then to realize it's like putting your hand in the fire and then being like, oh, actually it hurts. But I kind of needed to test. I think a lot of people, especially founders, like, I want to test all of my limits. And I want to do it all at the same time and all as well. And I think I think it's like all power to you if you if you want to do that, and and then, but then you also you you kind of learn by doing, you learn by experimenting, and you can come back and be like, okay, what part of that was helpful and what part of that was harmful? And now I'm gonna take the wisdom of the harmful parts and and try and double down on the helpful parts. And I think part of it is like it's all part of the journey, isn't it? Yeah, um, and it makes for some epic stories.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

And also we're human, right? Like I think enjoying the journey is so important. It does it doesn't all have to be, I think being overly optimized. It's like I'm only gonna do stuff if it moves me a step closer can be a little bit sort of boring. Boring.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

So boring. And also as humans, we're like we're rich and complex creatures, and sometimes like doing all of like following all of the perfect health routine, if you're not listening to your body in the process of following that or listening to what you actually need and what you actually want, you can do everything right and still not feel good, like everything right in theory, because you're not actually paying attention to what your body is saying is good for you and not good for you. And sometimes I just think that question of like, does this net net feel like it's helping me or harming me more? And following that.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

And there's also social connection as well. So sort of making sure that you are feeling socially connected, socially recharged, and sometimes going fully into that optimized life can disconnect you from people.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Yes, yes, it's so true. And even coming full circle to like, I feel like I can't go on holiday. Sometimes I think too, you people have an idea in their head of what holiday is, and so they'll be like, oh, holiday should be I go and lie on a beach. And some people are not recharged by lying on a beach. Some people are like hate lying on a beach for all. Exactly. Some people absolutely hate it, and other people like super recharge. So it I think thinking, what do I need right now? And then what's going to give me that, not based on what other people say they need and what they do, but what actually works for you. And so getting to know yourself and what kind of holiday you want and need, so you actually get those needs met when you come back.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

That's a really nice point. Like, I I think everyone would acknowledge what holiday you need. Like for me, cultural holiday when I'm tired, it's probably not what I need. Although I appreciate I like adventures, I like activity holidays, I like doing stuff. Lying on a beach, I can do it for about half an hour, and then I'm like, this is not for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah, so fair.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

But other people, it could be lying on a beach, it could be reading on a beach for a a week, yeah, is like amazing.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah, yeah. Like honestly, for me, being on a beach, listening to podcasts and reading my book, yeah, and being in and out of the water and having some kind of hike, some delicious, like that is so recharging. And then for other people, they're like, I need to move my body for hours. I need to go on a 10-hour cycle. And and and if someone took me on holiday 10-hour cycling, you'd have to you'd have to pay me so much money to do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

I don't even know the sum.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

That would have been my idea about how I remember going to Thailand and like being running on the beach one evening. It's okay, just stop, right, just relax, enjoy the holiday. And then another day playing beach beach rugby with a coconut, yeah. Just so it was something to do. Or finding like playing beach, I just the only way you're gonna get on a beach if there's if there's something to do around it.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

So fair. So so fair.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So, what are you taking from the holiday thing?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

What am I taking away from the holiday piece? I think the first is it does depend on the stage. And then like the second piece is around there are ways to holiday and blend it. So you could be just in a different space and do some recharging activities alongside pieces of work, and that there can be benefits to also um seeing what happens in your team and using it as an opportunity to like test where is my team actually at and how independent are they, and what we were just talking about around what makes you recharge and what's the what's the purpose of your holiday. And final thing, I think I feel like I can't take you kind of, I think it's it's easier to own it. So sometimes this feeling of like, I'm desperate for a holiday and I can't take one, you then spend so much energy on like thinking about the holiday and not doing it that you might as well have just gone. The reality is is like four days or five days away is is never gonna change. There are very few circumstances in which you taking four days out of your business is literally gonna be the end of the world. And so I think sometimes it's helpful to just reset a bit and be like, it's not that deep, we're not saving lives necessarily. And if you want to recharge, you're a human being, go recharge, come back better. Um, and all's well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

I also wanted to just I wonder whether just either beginning of the year or enough in advance. If you think trying to book a holiday in three weeks' time is impossible. You have stuff in. But if you get two months out and say I'm having this holiday.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Two weeks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

It's like it's it's doable because you plan around it.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

So I think and your team already imprimed and they know it's coming, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

So I I I think just going not going if but when, and but then booking it where in advance is helpful. Nice. That's it for another week. Thanks for listening. Uh we will see you next week. As always, hit subscribe, tell other people, and uh happy scaling.