The Ultimate Dish
The Ultimate Dish
Carnegie Hall to Culinary School: How One Opera Singer is Nourishing Her Art and Her Life
In today’s episode, we chat with Maria Zouves, a Greek-American soprano, educator, director, producer, and current Escoffier student pursuing a degree in Holistic Nutrition & Wellness.
As President of the Sherrill Milnes VOICE Programs, which she co-founded with her husband, legendary baritone Sherrill Milnes, Maria has spent over 25 years nurturing artists and building new audiences for classical music. She has directed operas across the U.S. and Europe, including productions at the Estates Theatre in Prague and Opera Tampa. A celebrated performer, Maria made her Carnegie Hall debut in 1997 and is now preparing for a return to Don’t Tell Mama Cabaret Theatre in New York City to promote her upcoming classical cabaret album, Everything.
Join us as Maria shares her inspiring journey from opera to culinary school, delves into the deep connection between food and the arts, and discusses how she’s inspiring others to live with intention and purpose.
TRANSCRIPT
Kirk Bachmann: Hi everyone, my name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish. Today, I’m incredibly excited, and we are honored to have Maria Zouves, a celebrated opera singer, educator, director, and producer who is now forging an exciting new path in the culinary world.
Maria is a true culinary explorer and food strategist, passionate about community enrichment – beautiful word – better living, longevity through food, and so much more, I should say. Having spent decades incorporating food into her musical programming, she has always believed in the deep connection between cuisine and the arts.
Her journey into the culinary field became official when she earned a baking certificate while studying under the renowned Chef Sim Cass. She currently is completing her additional degree in Holistic Wellness and Nutrition from Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. That’s right.
As a sought-after lecturer and writer, Maria shares her expertise on career development, healthier living, and the power of food. She is a frequent guest at Canyon Ranch in Lenox, Massachusetts, where she is today! Her food writing is gaining attention through her Food for Life segment, an ongoing culinary feature in Tampa Bay Magazine.
Beyond the kitchen, Maria is a champion for mentorship and the arts. As President of the Sherrill Milnes VOICE Programs – this is a program she co-founded with her husband, legendary baritone Sherrill Milnes – she has spent over 25 years nurturing artists and building new audiences for classical vocal music. She has directed operas across the U.S. and Europe, including productions at the Estates Theatre in Prague and Opera Tampa.
As a Greek American soprano, she has performed leading roles internationally, made her Carnegie Hall debut in 1997, and is now preparing for a return to Don’t Tell Mama Cabaret theatre in New York City to promote her upcoming classical cabaret album, “Everything.”
Get ready for a fascinating conversation about the intersection of music, food, and well-being, and how Maria is inspiring others to embrace a more intentional way of living.
And there she is. Oh my goodness! I’m exhausted. Exhausted after that introduction. How are you?
Maria Zouves: I’m well. I’m a little overwhelmed. Did I do all that? I don’t know. It means I’ve lived a long time.
A Strategy for the Self
Kirk Bachmann: You did. You did. It’s fascinating. I wasn’t really sticking to the script because it read so well, and I wanted to make it even more exciting.
Before we start – I’m super excited – I’m going to put you on the spot, but first, remind us where you are, why you’re there, and a little bit more about where you are in Massachusetts.
Maria Zouves: Sure. I’m in the famous area of Tanglewood, which is a great music festival in the summer. This is Lenox, Mass., and I’m at Canyon Ranch, which is such a beautiful wellness center and spa and has a great culinary tradition. Chef Julian is amazing. I eat too much, and I play too much, but I’m here doing a [concert]. I just finished my concert last night. I did a cabaret concert called “Classical Cabaret,” with a great colleague of mine, David Friedman, and another, Assaf Gleizner. I’m doing a class tomorrow on strategic planning. So it’s happening tomorrow.
We kind of do what we can. It’s all based on the fact that I love cultivating the future of everything, whether it is your future, my future, legacy of music, legacy of food, of culture. Whatever it takes. I sometimes come up with all sorts of interesting ideas about how to pass the torch on, not just from me, but from the person before me. It’s that wonderful relay that we do in life.
Kirk Bachmann: And the strategic planning is geared towards what?
Maria Zouves: Well, for singers, which is what I started doing it for, it was helping them understand – and I think for culinarians, too, it’s so important. We sort of have a vague idea of what we want to do. When you talk to someone who is in school, they say, “I want to have a food truck. I want to have a restaurant. I want to be a personal chef.” Yeah, but what are the steps to get there? Have you really thought about it?
Because I worked as an arts administrator, one of the things that we were really involved with at the time I was at the performing arts center, Tampa Bay Performing Arts Center which is now the Straz Center, is the big strategic plan. Building a strategic plan in a formal way, I tweaked it to work with a creative.
I have this system that’s based on Greek. It’s the idea that we live in three areas: we live in the ego, which is the ego me. We live in the aftá which is the thing directly in front of us, like our family and our jobs. And then we live in theagora, which the agora is the marketplace, the world. How does the world perceive us? I take those three things, and I help singers build their plan. I started doing it with people here at Canyon Ranch because so many people are here to answer questions for themselves.
It’s not even about a plan, per se; it’s about a methodology to understand, “What do I want, and how do I get there?” Sometimes we don’t understand the system of doing it. We get vague, or we get too granular. I’ve had a lot of fun with that.
Kirk Bachmann: That is so brilliant. Many things are going through my mind. One, where does she find the time? Ego, family, marketplace: brilliant. I’m actually working on the strategic plan for the school.
Maria Zouves: Oh, so you know what I’m talking about.
Kirk Bachmann: So I’m learning. I’m learning here. I absolutely love that. Would it be so forward of me to ask at the beginning of our chat together. I’ve been playing some tracks in the house as I prepare for our little chat. Your voice is absolutely stunning. Beautiful.
Maria Zouves: Well thank you.
Kirk Bachmann: My daughter was trying to replicate it a little bit. I had to ask her to stop a couple of times.
Maria Zouves: The fact that she knows “Songbird” makes me happy.
Asking a Professional to Randomly Sing
Kirk Bachmann: She knows it now. She came home from gymnastics, and it was just blaring through the house because I was moving around and getting myself all pumped up to chat with you. Is it awkward? Do people ask you to do that all the time, “Can you sing something for us?”
Maria Zouves: We sort of hate it, but I will tell you right now, I don’t hate it that you asked because we tease. People will say silly things like, “Just belt out a high note at a party.”
Kirk Bachmann: I wouldn’t do that, Maria. I wouldn’t ask you to do that.
Maria Zouves: I will sing, but let me tell you – I write scripts for the shows that I do. I love doing it because you can really put pieces of music together that don’t belong with just a little bit of verbal glue. I did this dinner party theme where it was little scenarios. People were drinking at a cocktail party, and people were talking, or they were sitting at a table and they were eating. Little segues, like “Laugh-in” used to do, little joke segues. Remember that?
Kirk Bachmann: Yes, yes, yes.
Maria Zouves: Into song! One of them was what happens to all of us in opera, which is this very drunk gentleman walks up to our mezzo – it’s all in the script. This really happened, but it didn’t happen in that moment. He walks up to our mezzo, and he says, “Wow! You’re a tall drink of water. What do you do?” He’s completely drunk.
She goes, “Well, I’m an opera singer.”
He goes, “Oh my God, that’s crazy! Everybody, come here! Come here! She’s an opera singer. Just belt out a high note. Just give me a high note!”
She very calmly says, “Wait a minute. What do you do?”
He says, “I’m a gynecologist.”
She says, “I’ll tell you what: you don’t do what you do at this party, and I won’t do what I do at this party.”
I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that.
Kirk Bachmann: I don’t know. Somebody will either edit that or not. I think it’s hilarious.
Maria Zouves: It’s worth saying. The point is, you don’t do your job when you’re playing. This is part of our job. We’re having a wonderful conversation.
Kirk Bachmann: It is part of our job. I’ll even tee it up more. I mentioned to you earlier, I have a dear friend, Sylvia, who is an opera singer from Hungary. Her family’s in the business. There’s not a birthday party that isn’t elevated a little bit more when Sylvia’s part of singing “Happy Birthday.” Everyone tends to stop singing as Sylvia finishes the song. She’s done many events for us. We’ll talk more about music. I’m going to give the stage to you. I have chills, and I haven’t even asked you to sing it yet, but now I’m asking you to sing.
Maria Zouves: Now the pressure is on, right?
Over the Rainbow
Kirk Bachmann: There is a little bit of pressure. You’ve got the roses. I already sent you flowers. Here we go.
Maria Zouves: Well, I don’t know about the mic. If it cuts out, I can’t control that. One of the songs that I’ve sung my entire life before I really wanted to be an opera singer – that’s why the album “Everything” is so near and dear to my heart. Before I wanted to be an opera singer, I wanted to be the next Barbara Streisand. I have the nose for it. I have the Greek nose. I totally was in love with her music. I loved Bette Midler. I loved Judy Garland.
When I was eleven years old, I had to go to a church thing about the “Wizard of Oz,” and they had me sing Dorothy. So I sang “Over the Rainbow.” I’ve sung it my whole life.
The story goes that I concertized a lot with my husband when we were first together until he retired from the stage. I always ended with “Rainbow,” and he always ended with “Maria” from “West Side Story.”
Kirk Bachmann: Oh, chills, chills, chills. Wow.
Maria Zouves: Yeah, it was pretty sweet.
I sang it for a fundraiser in New York City because Tony Randall – now, a lot of our culinarian friends and colleagues won’t know that name. They’re too young.
Kirk Bachmann: I know the name.
Maria Zouves: We know the name. “The Odd Couple,” very famous actor. Heather was also younger than Tony, so we’ve stayed very close. I’ll see her in May, and I adore her. Tony had called to ask Sherrill and me to do this fundraiser. Sherrill and Tony were very, very good friends.
I was getting ready to end with “Over the Rainbow,” and it dawned on me: he knew Judy very well. I’m kind of crazy to be singing this in front of him because it’s her song, not my song. (I consider it my song, humbly.) So I sang it, and I thought, “He’s going to tell me the honest truth,” because that’s what Tony did.
Tony walks up to me, and he says – and I’m bracing myself because I thought, “If he doesn’t like it, I’m never going to be able to sing it again.” He looked up at me, and I saw he had a tear.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my goodness.
Maria Zouves: He said just these words. “Judy would have been proud.”
Kirk Bachmann: Wow! Wow!
Maria Zouves: So that was it. So I’m still singing it, and here it is.
Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high,
there’s a land that I’ve heard of once in a lullaby.
Is that good? Should I do more?
Kirk Bachmann: My God! Are you kidding me here? I could listen to you all day. I don’t want to ask my questions.
Maria Zouves: You are not!
Kirk Bachmann: No, I mean, that’s a beautiful song. What’s moved me here, and you’ve kind of made me emotional a little bit, Maria.
Maria Zouves: Chef, that’s amazing. Thank you.
From the Heart
Kirk Bachmann: You can really tell when someone cooks an omelet, for example, with love. That they just are pouring their energy and their – it’s how my wife cooks. She cooks from her heart, and it’s one of the reasons that it’s rare to get the same recipe from my wife twice because her mood changes. Sometimes it’s an aggressive omelet, and sometimes it’s a very loving omelet.
Maria Zouves: I love that.
Kirk Bachmann: But it’s a big difference between a robotic, technical execution of a recipe. I’ll get over this, I promise.
Maria Zouves: I’m so touched.
Kirk Bachmann: You can just tell that you’re singing from the heart. This is something you’ve [sung] many, many times. It just comes out beautifully. We’re going to have to work with Noelle to get that track – the whole track – onto the recording.
Maria Zouves: It’s in the album. “Over the Rainbow.” I ended with it, in “Everything.”
Kirk Bachmann: Maybe we just drive everyone to “Everything,” right? Snowbird or Songbird?
Maria Zouves: “Songbird” yeah.
Kirk Bachmann: “Songbird.”
Maria Zouves: Chef Shontia, her favorite is “The Funny Valentine.” I can see different places in the world where people are listening, and I always know she’s listening.
An Overwhelming Personality
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my goodness. Before I actually get the agenda of questions, where do you find the time for all of this? You’re also a perfect student, not to embarrass you.
Maria Zouves: Well, I don’t know. I try. I’m a little obsessed with it. It’s a bad deal. I keep thinking, “When I break my hundred, I can relax” because every single week I’m like, “Okay. Here we go.” I have to keep it going.
No, I’m very Type A, as you could probably already tell. And yet, watching your podcasts and getting to know the people that you’re interviewing. I love your style. It’s so brilliant. So thrilled to be part of this. I kept listening and going, “I can’t do that. I don’t do that. How do they do that? How are they doing that?” That’s amazing.
I think I’m hard on myself. I want so badly to do what the album is. I want everything! In the words of “Everything – I’d like to plan a city and play the cello and play at Monte Carlo and play Othello and move into the White House and paint it yellow.” I just want to do it all. I think that’s what it is. I’m a high-energy person.
I’m someone that really knows how to slow down, too, and I think that’s the key. I know so many people who do a lot don’t know how to stop. Part of longevity is understanding balance. I’m really obsessed with that.
Also, I am somebody who can compartmentalize. I’ve thought about your question. I do it a lot. I’m managing a lot. I have a twenty-five-year-old son, who is fantastic, and a creative also. I have a very creative and very driven husband, who has done a tremendous amount in his life. I think my only problem is that when I’m geared up in that high-energy, Tasmanian devil spiral, I can be overwhelming. I think a lot of chefs, a lot of singers, a lot of people who are …
Kirk Bachmann: Overwhelming to yourself or to others?
Maria Zouves: No, to others.
Kirk Bachmann: To others.
Maria Zouves: Sometimes it’s like, whew! And if you don’t know me! I had one of my singers, she was so sweet. Ashley Nunez. I’m going to call her out because she’s going to watch this, I’m sure.
Kirk Bachmann: Let’s go.
Maria Zouves: She’s a brilliant singer. We were just with her. She turned to me and she reminded me, “Maria, remember what I said about you?”
“What?”
She goes, “I really think that this is your universe, and we’re all just actors in your play.”
I went, “Really? Is it that bad?”
Kirk Bachmann: You know what’s a perfect example of an A personality – don’t you love that comment?
Maria Zouves: Yeah!
Kirk Bachmann: I want somebody to say that about me!
Maria Zouves: That’s a compliment! Also what we both share is that we’re educators. I have to take a step back. I have to produce, push, and then let go and allow somebody to shine because that’s my joy. If somebody else is singing, I’m joyful.
Taking It All In
Kirk Bachmann: And you do that with your children, too.
Before we get too far, I want to come back. I love the word “Everything.” I love that that’s the title. Now that I know you, it certainly matches your personality, but you said something about slowing down. One of my favorite podcasts to listen to to just better understand how to talk to guests – how to contribute when it’s necessary to contribute, how to listen when it’s important to listen – is “Armchair Expert” with Dax Shepard. It’s playful. It’s fun. It’s popular. There’s cussing – we don’t cuss. He would ask that. He would have stopped you and said, “How would you slow down?” I’m going to more respectfully ask, how do you slow down? When you’re looking in the mirror and you know that you’re pushing – you’re going a hundred miles an hour – how do you slow down? This is like therapy for me, by the way.
Maria Zouves: Love it. I think that’s really great. It’s a great question.
Honestly, I slow down in ways that make me more of a consumer than a producer. I live in the Tampa Bay area. I drive an hour and a half to Disney. We’re Disney Vacation Club members.
Kirk Bachmann: That doesn’t sound like slowing down.
Maria Zouves: We’ll just sit at the patio and look outside and do nothing. I’ll go to a lovely restaurant and meet the chef. I don’t eat processed oils, so at Disney you have to meet the chef because you have to discuss the things that you won’t eat. Usually, I get very lucky because the chef will make me curate something stunning that I love.
I will come into Canyon Ranch. I will spend time by myself. That’s new because when I was young, I grew up in a huge Greek family – my big, fat Greek family. Nia was right.
Kirk Bachmann: “You’re vegan! That’s okay. I’ll make lamb!”
Maria Zouves: I loved it. Great lines. My dad – I’m watching it with my dad, and they pan to the house, this cheesy, Parthenon-esque house, and I’m sitting with my dad, and he turns to me, and he goes, “See, Maria. That’s the house I always wanted.” I was living it in the audience.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh!
Maria Zouves: I was afraid to be alone because I was never alone. There were five girls; I have four sisters. A grandmother living in the house, and aunts and uncles, and three female cousins all living within a mile of each other. There were always voices. I slept with voices in the house. I awoke to smells in the kitchen. I was never alone. It was scary for me. I couldn’t sit in a restaurant and eat alone. I didn’t know how to do any of those things.
So now, I treasure it. Sitting out on the patio at Disney or sitting in a restaurant, or having a conversation with somebody. I went on a hike in Canyon Ranch the last time I was here. I will meet and enjoy several people, one of whom was Amy Grant. We were hiking together talking about how our husbands have both sung songs with our names in them. About singing and about being female and songwriting.
I said to myself, “I’m going to take this hike, and I’m not going to talk to anybody.” Because it’s my nature to be gregarious. “I need to be alone on this hike.” So purposely held back, and I walked up by myself. The guide that was with me, Kelly, ended up talking with me to the point where I had a bigger conversation than I ever had. I’m doing a session with him on breathing and altered states tomorrow. We had a session the next day, he and I, and we both kind of healed each other in a lot of different ways. It turned out to be the best thing ever. Why? Because I was silent, and something came to me.
Kirk Bachmann: I imagine that.
Maria Zouves: And that’s the hard part for people to understand. Sometimes, you have to stop making things, and you have to see what comes in on you and what you need to receive.
I think that the culinary world is so much like that because we put so much pressure on ourselves to get it right, to know the formulas, to understand how to use the product, to know the chemical combinations and the traditions and the temperatures. But if you stop for a minute – like you said, your wife makes omelets and it depends on her mood as to what kind of omelet you make – I think food is like that. Food experiences are like that.
It’s like chewing! We know we don’t chew enough. We don’t chew long enough for our digestion. Take a minute and chew, and you’re going to taste things in your mouth. You’re going to have flavors and aromas and experiences and textures that you wouldn’t have noticed if you just gobbled down your meal.
Kirk Bachmann: Well, they say, “Stop and smell the roses” or the tulips, to be more appropriate today. It’s important.
Before I jump into your bio, this is so much fun already. We haven’t even gotten to any questions.
Maria Zouves: I hope I’m answering some of your questions.
Kirk Bachmann: This is absolutely useless trivia, but you mentioned Amy Grant. Big fan. I think she’s still married to Vince Gill, right?
Maria Zouves: Yes.
Kirk Bachmann: We were talking to someone the other day who went to Vegas to the Sphere to see the Eagles. Guess who was playing with the Eagles? Vince Gill.
Maria Zouves: There you go.
Kirk Bachmann: Isn’t that something? Who would’ve ever thought that twenty years ago. I’ve been a big Vince Gill fan for a long, long, long time. What a small world?
Maria Zouves: I love it when artists collaborate. There’s always so much fun in that.
Creative Curiosity
Kirk Bachmann: He probably grew up loving the Eagles, and now he’s on stage with them in arguably one of the most incredible venues.
Let’s talk about you. Let’s talk a little bit more. The bio is amazing. I could have gone on and on. I just need to understand: your husband, who has this unbelievable career – that’s a whole other show. I told you at the beginning, I spent more time researching him. Performed at the White House. I think you have met at least four sitting presidents and their first ladies. With that as a backdrop, I would love for you to talk a little bit about how you’ve fashioned a colorful career that intersects this world of – I’m not going to limit it to opera. I’m going to suggest – music and wellness and the White House – which you’re going to paint yellow – against or with culinary arts. Talk about how this all comes together a little bit. You’re going to give away all your secrets here.
Maria Zouves: No. I’m happy to. I feel like we need to talk more about a lot of things. I think the world is starting to.
I’m trying to back up to your questions. The first thing I’ll say is that my husband was the most recorded opera singer of his time, fortunately, because there is a legacy of recordings of him back to Maria Callas days. I just did a benefit concert for my cathedral in Tarpon. The author, Nicholas Gage was speaking about his new book. It was a tribute to Callas. He said it well. “We think of opera as B.C. and A.C. – before Callas and after Callas because she changed what we think of.” It drives me crazy in some of these commercials, the lady with the breastplates and the horns and singing. I hate that because that’s not who we are. We’re storytellers, and opera singers are beautiful and they’re fit, and they’re wonderful.
Maria Callas changed what opera was. My husband is part of that legacy. He was a singing actor. He looked like the Marlboro Man. He was tall. He was gorgeous. He was American-looking. He sang high notes like tenors, and he was musical. He was a conductor.
That was an intimidating thing for me as a young singer. I met him as a young singer and was not put together when I met him. I was still studying and putting my voice together and discovering what my world was going to be in opera. I just sort of was with him and absorbing and taking. I stopped and received.
One of the things I started doing was meeting the most famous operatic people of all time, from Luciano Pavarotti to Joan Sutherland. The opera world Andrea Bocelli. Then I was like, “What can I do about that? Because I can’t sing right now, still working, still getting it together, still a student. But I can do something.” So I started working with young singers about questions they would want to ask a famous person. This was back before this format, before the internet. It didn’t exist.
I would go to my husband’s friends, who were major stars, and I would ask the same question of them that these young singers helped me curate. Then I wrote an article called “A Conversation with….”
My point is, I never stopped doing anything I could to be curious about the industry. When I started putting my voice together and started getting work and started singing with my husband for the little slice of time that we had, it was sort of funny for me. I would audition, and people would say things like, “I didn’t expect you to be that good!” Because it’s the “take my wife please!” You know how that goes.
Kirk Bachmann: A little bit.
Maria Zouves: For me, it was almost having to prove twice that I was capable of doing what I do in the industry. It made me a little bit tougher, and it made me a lot bolder. I had a lot more chutzpah. If those of you listening don’t know what chutzpah means, it is a Yiddish term for having a lot of guts.
I thought, “You know what? I’m just going to dig my heels in and do what I can.” I think that’s a part of my success and my failure because I put a lot of pressure on myself. Let’s face it: I just wasn’t going to be the major star that my husband was, and that’s okay. What I became was kind of an everything. I became a producer, writer, director, lecturer, mentor, career consultant, even wardrobe consultant. Singers sometimes don’t know how to dress onstage.
A Fiery Family
Kirk Bachmann: I’m going to call that very entrepreneurial or fiery. Before I share a narrative that I really love when you auditioned for the Baltimore Opera, I’d love for you to speak to growing up in a Greek home. I’m sure that you were influenced by the exquisite cooking by your mother in the family. Talk about that a little bit and some of the Greek dishes and the entertaining. How did that family spirit – and I’m assuming this right now. I’m just listening to you talk and assuming this – how did that add to your desire to be successful?
Maria Zouves: Well, my father was actually an actor. He was degreed in theater in Egypt. My parents were Egyptian Greeks. They were one hundred percent Greek from the Dodecanese, the Twelve Islands. Dad was from Symi. Mama was from Kastellorizo. They were raised in Egypt, in Alexandria. Because of the war, they all moved. There was a big Greek community in Alexandria, so my father became a Shakespearean actor in a troop with the Shakespeare translated into Greek for the Greek community. He was a really intelligent man. He was very much a theater person, very fiery personality, and a lovely, lovely, just fun person to be with. He spoke a lot of languages.
But he had to raise his children with five girls. I was born in America, but my sister was born in Egypt and then South Africa. He was practical. He became a merchant marine and he did an online class on air conditioning, and he became a machinist. He never stopped acting. He’s registered in Florida as the official Karagiozis, which is a shadow-puppet theater, official Karagiozis puppeteer. He’s passed. He’s been gone a while.
Mom was a singer. She loved to sing. She used to sing on the boats with her dad when she was young, so my parents were both performers. But my mom had a magic. Angeliki was her name. She had the magic of drawing people to her. She had big Greek eyes and a soft-spoken way about her.
She knew how to throw a party. People would want to come to the Zouves house. We’d go to Greek dances, and then it would be like, “Are we all going to Kiki’s house?” “Yes.” Everyone would show up and mom would pull out the eggs and the french fries she made that night and the meatloaf that she had done, the dolmades that she had rolled, whatever she had around. She would cook up a Greek smorgasbord, if that’s a thing. I was part of that.
She was cooking in the morning until night. She would have me sit at her table and I would roll out koulourakia, little Greek cookies. It just was always about food. There was always a pot of food on the stove. Mama used food as love, as most mothers do. My father never ate at restaurants because he would always say, “Why, when I have the best food in the whole wide world?” And he starved as a child! He starved. He was a starved, poor kid in Alexandria, Egypt. He just loved my mother’s cooking. He was appreciative, and he raved about it.
I think the combination of the two, and the fact that he was such an actor. At the parties, he would dance and sing, and they would drag me out and make me do my Cher impersonation. And perform like Sylvia does at her parties. I would always have to get up and perform. I loved it.
Kirk Bachmann: You’ve got to give us fifteen seconds of Cher. Come on. You can’t say that and not give me some Cher.
Maria Zouves: I have such respect for that woman, that artist, that human being. I have a lot of chutzpah. I would do the hair toss, and I would do the, “Gypsies, tramps and thieves.” I would do that.
Kirk Bachmann: I love it. We grew up with Sonny and Chef.
Maria Zouves: I would watch it. Carol Burnett’s show, Sonny and Cher, the Dolly Parton Show. Do you remember that?
Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, of course.
Maria Zouves: Love is like a butterfly, soft as a…Anyway. So we have to stop.
The Reward of Acceptance
Kirk Bachmann: We need like two hours.
I want to connect the dots with the most rewarding part for you. The narrative I was mentioning earlier was when you were auditioning for the Baltimore Opera, and you were told you were hired. Then you looked at the general director, and you basically quipped, “But I want your job.” I love that because it’s honest. I imagine you never applied for a job you were qualified for. You were always trying to achieve more. Same.
With that in mind, then you landed the prestigious job at Straz Center for the Performing Arts in 2007, I believe it was, served on the Vice President team. I think you were the Associate General Director of the Opera in Tampa until 2011. The accolades go on and on and on. I’m curious, again, the intersection of your career in music and the performing arts, and then we’ll get into your journey with nutrition and art.
What’s been most rewarding for you? How do you pick? What’s the podium?
Maria Zouves: Such a good question. You are asking hard questions, and I love that.
Kirk Bachmann: The script was just very general, Maria. Very general.
Maria Zouves: I think the most rewarding thing for me is that I’ve learned to accept – this sounds backwards, like I’m not answering your question. When you’re in the arts, you tend to think that fame is the equivalent of success. I think the culinary world – the more people I meet in the industry, the more I realize that while I love and respect so many people who are TV personalities in the culinary world, and I’m intimidated that you have all these people on this show, and here I am. It’s about how well you do your craft.
That’s what my shining glory is for me. What happened in my decades of being in music, I’ve not only accepted; I love and am proud of it. And [I’ve] not thought, but I would’ve. But I could’ve. But why didn’t I? It was the love affair that I had to come into with my singing. We’ll talk about that. It’s nutrition-based. Having struggled with my voice as my career was taking off – and that’s not the reason I didn’t have a huge career at the Met. There’s a lot of reasons. It’s a tapestry. But It forced me to love my voice in such a way that I had to accept it when it betrayed. That’s really hard.
Athletes talk about it a lot. Shelly talked about it with me the first time I’d met her on the phone. We were talking, and she said, “You’re an athlete.”
I said, “No, actually, I’m a singer.”
She said, “No, no. You’re an athlete. Singers are athletes. Opera singers are athletes.” There’s an equivalent when you injure yourself.
It’s a key moment for me where I said to myself, “I accept so much that I’m happy with what I’ve done that I’m really ready to move on to another discipline, and come to it with the humility – at least I try – of it’s a life’s journey.” I’m halfway through a life. I’m hoping I’m only halfway through. It’s a life’s journey that is beginning at zero.
Even though I’ve lived with food my whole life, I’m beginning at zero, which is really scary. But it’s also easier for me than it would have been if I had decided to go into – and I had no intention of going into culinary, ever. I was a visual artist, and then I became a performing artist. But I brought myself to music in a way that was way too ambitious and too much about, “I want to be rich, famous, and powerful,” which is also one of the songs that’s on my CD. Just do the work and be excellent.
I love that I came to that at this stage in my life because if I hadn’t, I think the what-ifs and regrets would have eaten me alive. You can’t live in that because you metabolize it. Your body’s cells listen. If you keep feeding that kind of negativity, it comes out in everything you do – like your omelet.
Health and Food
Kirk Bachmann: Do the work and be excellent. I absolutely love that.
You mention the word craft, and I promise I’ll move on, but such an important word. Respect the craft. My father back there in the picture, I mentioned to you, that’s all he ever really said. He’s a master pastry chef. All he ever really talked about was respecting the craft. I don’t care if you’re a carpenter or an opera singer or a chef or a lawyer or a doctor, respect that craft. I love [that]. That resonates with me.
I mentioned that we’re going to talk a little bit about your health journey and this connection between nutrition and the arts. We’ll talk a little bit about your studies right now. You’ve been very open about your struggles with health, with weight, and how it led you to focus on nutrition. I’m not surprised. You went in full-bore. If you’re comfortable, Maria, with sharing, could you please for our listeners elaborate a little bit more on this love-hate relationship with food [that] developed while being in the performing arts, which you absolutely love? There were some things that you could and couldn’t control, like reflux issues and how that could impact your singing. Again, it’s a big question. For those who are in the performing arts sector and in the spotlight, if you will, what’s your advice after all of that? This is what people are going to want to hear when it comes to nurturing a healthy relationship with food.
Sorry. That’s a lot.
Maria Zouves: Again, it’s really a complicated and wonderful question, so I’ll try to answer it without taking three hours, not just two.
It all stems on why you have food in your life. I think one of the biggest issues we have today in terms of eating unprocessed, eating well, is that food is a huge part of our socialization. We eat too late. We drink too much with it. When we communicate with a Netflix movie – and we are communicating with the screen, even if it’s passive – we use food as part of that bridge of communication. We sit with potato chips. We sit with popcorn. Whatever. I feel like it’s that relationship that we’re having with food is based on the agora, or the aftá as we said.
It’s also about body imaging. The big advice that I would give to anyone, not just in the performing arts – I think it’s too everyone – for me, I thought it was about being skinny. Now, as we know more and we’ve delved into the nutritional realm, we know that there is “sick skinny.” We know that skinny isn’t really it. It’s really about having nutrients in your body and your body being fed by the things you’re feeding it. Not just [eating] but feeding it.
What I tell people all the time, because we think of singers as being heavier. It’s not really the case. I tell singers, be healthy. Move. Sleep. Eat the rainbow. Take care of the nutrition that’s going into your body. Take care of the timing that you put the nutrition into your body. Hydrate yourself with the right things. Don’t take powders and throw them into a water bottle and think that you’re doing right by yourself. Read the label. The rest comes. We’ve already proven it in studies in science and health and wellness that when you take care of those things, the rest comes.
Yes, I had inherent peristalsis issues, meaning that the movement of my food was slower than most. I inherited it from my mom; my mom had it, too. But I kept using weight control as a means of thinking I was healthy, and that’s not what it was. I’m not going to say that I was bulimic, but sometimes I would eat to the point that I was sick. It wasn’t moving fast enough, so I would have to find a way to remove it. It sounds terrible, but I’m telling the truth. There were times when I would be physically ill, and that would add to the gas and to the acid that was coming up. I would get alkaline burns. Because the peristalsis was bad and the valve to my stomach was bad, I just kept burning my esophagus. Then, as I would get sick, I would burn it more, and then I couldn’t sing.
What I should have done – and that’s why I keep telling singers, “learn from me” – what I should have done is just paid attention to the what and when I was eating rather than weight and weight loss. That’s not the answer. We think of it as the answer, and the world wants to make it the answer. We find a nutritional thing, and we say, “This will help you lose weight. Let’s product something. Let’s market something that’s not really about what we’re talking about and market it as that, so that you’ll feel like you’re going to lose weight if you use that product.” That’s so bad. It’s such a problem.
I don’t want to be someone who disses anything that’s out there, but I do want to be someone who is an advocate for the good things that are available to us right now. I do it with my singers all the time. Love your body. If you have a curve, you have a curve. If you have a little pooch, you earned it, but love your body and be healthy. Unprocess your darn food as best you can. Everything’s processed. We know that. We’ve learned that. Look at your label, and don’t order something or don’t buy something that your body has to work hard to detoxify what you’ve put in. Just stop doing that.
Eating Up the Information
Kirk Bachmann: Really good advice. If I could just say, I appreciate the transparency. I’m going to use another quote. We’ve done a lot of work on you. Can I just tell you? We’ve done a lot of research. A lot of research. Maria, you said, I quote, “Anyone at any time can go down the road of a healthier and happier life through two things: food and art.” I love that. “My desire is to help people find a healthy relationship with food and not feel it is just about weight and dieting.” You just said that. “It’s about community.” Great word. “Great experiences we share alongside self-exploration and personal growth. Through nutrition and wellness, we find out so much about ourselves and others just like in music. And like singing, people in the culinary world are storytellers.” Can I just tell you how much I love that? “Starting conversations and creating emotions.” You, Maria, want to be a part of the conversation.
I’m going to embarrass you again. I have access to a lot, so I know that you’re in our holistic nutrition and wellness course online. I also know that you’re doing really well. I’m just going to say you’re at a hundred percent. Albert, I’m coming after you, buddy. For Albert, ninety-nine percent is really, really, really good.
For the audience, I want people to know that a class we call HW 130, it’s the first holistic nutrition class that students in this program take in the holistic nutrition program sequence. I don’t know how you did it, but it’s typically in the second term depending on whether you had transfer credits and all that. I think you probably had professor Shelly Travers Smith. She’s a registered dietitian. She teaches the course. 130 is a foundation. It’s a primer for the program. We cover topics such as how metabolisms function, the role and the differences between macro and micro nutrients, digestion, how nutrition needs can change over a person’s life span, how food choices influence health, and the outcomes of health, so on and so forth. It’s a really great class. I’m so glad that you’re in it. We’ve worked with Shelly for many years.
I’m just curious what discoveries you’ve made. How has your experience been? I’m assuming it’s been good.
Maria Zouves: Oh, it’s been amazing!
Kirk Bachmann: How do you incorporate this new knowledge or this confirmed knowledge into your mission going forward? Everything.
Maria Zouves: It’s really interesting because in our industry, you have to have a level of extraordinary confidence to get up and do what you do. Last night, I had to hold people at attention for ninety minutes with just my voice and my very talented collaborators at the keyboard. I have to tell stories in between the music, and they have to be timed and funny or poignant and punched right.
That confidence does serve, but at the same time, I don’t know so much about the culinary world. I feel this pressure to take it in. I need to learn this because if I don’t learn this, then I can’t go to this place. I’ve not been in the heat of a kitchen. I’ve not worked in a restaurant beyond waiting tables when I was in college. My uncle had the town restaurant in Buffalo, New York, and my cousins worked in it from the time they were little until now. They sold it just now. They took it over from their father.
I know a restaurant is the toughest business. It’s just so rough. Like producing an opera! I produced the Savannah VOICE Festival, 36 events in two-and-a-half weeks. Every day there is something going on, and when it’s your turn, you have to be there. When you’re producing an opera, it all has to go right: the lighting, the orchestration, the singers, the backstage, the props, everything, the set change. It’s not dissimilar to that, but if somebody doesn’t like a high note, nobody gets sick. If somebody eats the wrong food, they can [get sick]. It’s very intimidating.
I’ve been eating it up as much as I can. That class – you were talking about that class – there’s a lot of information in that class. There’s truckloads.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh yeah. It’s the foundation.
Maria Zouves: It’s just truckloads of information. One of the things that I do is I will cut and paste out of things, and I’ll put them into my own little workshop pages. I’ll keep referring to them. I’ll just use them as a basis for what I need to learn.
I will tell you a funny story about professor Shelly. The first question that she asked in the foundation, the first discussion, was about intermittent fasting, which is what really saved me. It was really the beginning of my journey to this wellness space was this idea that I don’t have to eat all day. I can give my digestion a chance. I had IBS, and I had a lot of digestive issues. I was very uncomfortable most of the time. I love food, so the intermittent fasting portion of it really helped heal my gut. A healthy gut is a healthy life.
She asked the first discussion question. I had done so much online research because we have so much research already done, and we have so many things we could access, like this podcast. – your wonderful series. The series that are out there of other wonderful people that are having these conversations. Cancer researchers like Valter Longo and just great people who have done the work for us. Go in there and listen and inform yourself, and don’t pretend you’re an expert because you’ve done that, but at least inform yourself.
The question was, “Talk about intermittent fasting between cavemen and today.” This had already been [something] I had sucked up all the information. It was right here, just like I had learned an opera. Without even have to re-track my resources, my discussion was like THIS LONG. It was supposed to be this long. It was this long, and I even cited all my resources because I remembered them.
Shelly came back and said, “Wow! You’re really amazing.”
I go, “No. You just hit my favorite subject.” I thought, Wow, she probably thinks I’m really good at this. No, I just happened to hit.
Kirk Bachmann: Serendipity.
Maria Zouves: It was perfect because it gave me some confidence going into the class. Then it got even more complicated with all of the…
Kirk Bachmann: Confidence and curiosity are super, super important. Keep that.
Maria Zouves: Oh, I love that, chef.
Kirk Bachmann: Keep that confidence. Keep that confidence.
While you’re responding, I’m constantly thinking about what I’m going to ask you to sing as we wrap up. Oh my gosh.
Maria Zouves: You just wanted a concert today!
Camp Gladiator
Kirk Bachmann: Oh, I did. I did.
I do want to come back to some of this incredible work you’re doing. You’re a multi-disciplinary professional. We’re learning that today. You’re running these voice programs – or you have run them – with your husband, and you also have several other passions that you’re pursuing. Camp Gladiator? Sketching, painting, traveling. What’s at Camp Gladiator?
Maria Zouves: I love that. It’s a program that we have in the Southeast that I call PE for adults. I have a wonderful trainer, Kristy-
Kirk Bachmann: So it’s physical! It’s literally physical.
Maria Zouves: Yeah. We meet outside at different areas. It’s a great thing. They have it online, too. You meet outside different areas of the community. A bunch of us get together with a certified coach – it’s a certified program. Then you basically have an hour of PE. You play games, but the whole time you’re doing it, you’re doing HIIT training, you’re doing endurance. You’re doing all sorts of things.
It’s really fun, but the thing about me is if you go to Camp Gladiator when it’s my time, I will feed you scones or sourdough, or something I made. I’ll get up at four or five a.m. and bake because it’s my therapy. It’s quiet time. I like to share it. My poor husband and son can’t eat that many carbs for too long, so I will take it in for them. They love it. They’re like, “Oh, what did Maria bring today?”
It’s fun. I love moving my body. I don’t consider myself athletic. We’re a little clumsy in our family. Zouves girls fall. I don’t know why.
Kirk Bachmann: You’re a fall risk.
Maria Zouves: We just fall. I’ve really made it a point. “I can’t do it? Really? I don’t think so.” I just do it. I’ve worked out my whole life. I’ve done everything I can, but I always try to make it fun. I move on to a new drug.
One of them is running. I love to run. I didn’t run until my fifties. I just didn’t think I could. I’ve done some half-marathons, and I’ve done some really fun runs.
Kirk Bachmann: You go all in. You’re not just running; you’re competitive.
Maria Zouves: I’m a little competitive, yeah.
Creating My Own Presence
Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it.
We’re coming to the top of the hour, probably past the hour, but I’m not done. I would love to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about upcoming concerts and such. This is your ability to promote “Everything.” Where can our listeners go?
Maria Zouves: It’s funny because I need to get on the grid. It’s one of the goals I have, to get on the grid as an individual because my presence is really with our voice programs. I’ve dedicated twenty-five years of my life to it. Even having operas written for me to perform in the program and doing projects like going to Prague and directing where Mozart actually premiered a work that I’m directing is because I was trying to find new talent for my program. I just have lived with it. It’s been a relationship that I’ve had forever.
“Everything” and all my dates are on theVoiceExperienceFoundation.org website.
Kirk Bachmann: Perfect.
Maria Zouves: It’s all been there. Now that I’m going into the culinary writing that I do, Food for Life, and I’ve got some other projects that I’m starting to delve into, I realize I have to have my own presence. I’m giving advice to myself: Get out there and get your own presence. This podcast is a big part of it.
Kirk Bachmann: I love it. We’ll put the links into – because we’ll be on Spotify and YouTube and on the website and all that – we’ll put all the links.
Maria Zouves: And you can find my album in all of those platforms.
Kirk Bachmann: Spotify, Apple.
Maria Zouves: Yeah, “Everything.” Even YouTube. My debut at Don’t Tell Mama’s cabaret – fabulous cabaret space in New York City on Restaurant Row. I’ll be back there in May. May 9th will be my second time there with my cabaret show. There are some really fun clips from that concert on YouTube.
Kirk Bachmann: Perfect.
That reminded me. This is probably a silly question, my being naive. Can you define in your words what a “cabaret” is?
Maria Zouves: Great questions. “Cabaret” is the movie, “Life is a Cabaret.”
Kirk Bachmann: That’s the only thing going through my mind.
Maria Zouves: It’s an intimate space. It’s a speakeasy. It’s a place where people get up and do storytelling. It’s musical storytelling, songs, and songbook. The trope is people sit at a small table with their drink and maybe a food bite, and then performers perform for them. They entertain them. It’s like a variety show. A cabaret artist, typically, are artists who are doing a solo act. They have to tell a story from the beginning of the cabaret show to the end. That storytelling, that’s the one thing that you read, the quote that I had written – that’s what all that is. Being the storyteller means that someone is listening or someone’s experiencing it. That’s what cabaret is because you’re storytelling.
Kirk Bachmann: Liza Minnelli would be proud. I love that response.
Maria Zouves: It’s her birthday, by the way, Liza Minnelli’s
Kirk Bachmann: No way.
Maria Zouves: Yeah. March 12.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh, you just had a birthday.
Maria Zouves: Yes, I did.
An Open Style of Teaching
Kirk Bachmann: Happy birthday. Happy birthday.
It’s interesting because when I was reading that, doing that research, I looked up “cabaret.” I was like, “I bet Maria would define this differently.” And you did. Storytelling. We keep coming back to that theme. I am going to ask you one more question, but I’m just blabbing now.
I’m going to keep coming back to that theme because I was talking to one of our chefs this morning, Alex Porter. He teaches a class we have here in Boulder on ground called 135. It’s restaurant operations, so it’s a lot of theory. At the end of the day, he was asking a few questions, some advice and stuff.
I just reminded him, “You’re a storyteller. You’re a storyteller.” One thing you’ve probably noticed with Shelly and others and Albert, that we’ve tried really hard over the last year at Escoffier to ask our teachers, our instructors, our professors, to try really hard to be facilitators of knowledge. It used to be, when Chef Cass was teaching you, it was, “I am speaking. You’re going to listen, and you’re going to do it the way I’ve instructed you to do it.” It’s just the way education was, not just in the culinary space, but everywhere.
Today, like I was saying earlier, most of our students have so much knowledge in this little thing, and they have a lot of knowledge. We may have some Greek students who ate beautiful food growing up, or Italian students, or German students, or Swiss students. They may know better than some of our instructors who never lived or cooked or experienced Germany, Switzerland, Italy, or Greece. It’s important that their voices are heard. We’ve done, Maria, what we call “flipping the classroom.” You may not notice it, but we’ve asked our instructors to send out information in advance – “Hey, take a look at this, think about it, and then we’ll answer your questions when you come to class,” rather than just having to listen to someone for an hour lecture.
Maria Zouves: I don’t mean to interrupt you, but with Sim Cass, that was so amazing. Chef Sim was all of the maxims and all of that life experience came out in the manner in which we were preparing the day’s bakes. We would do four or five bakes a day. It was being fed and thread into all of our activity. Then he would just gather us around. What we learned a lot from was just watching him do it in front of us, and then doing it with him. That, of course, as an online situation.
One of the things that impresses me the most about Escoffier – well, two things. One is that for the online curriculum, I think there are times I had Chef Lanute right next to me when I was trying to, and Chef Maya when I’m baking. The point is, it’s so comprehensive and so hands on and so accessible – everyone is so accessible – that I have never once thought, “Gosh, I wish this wasn’t online.”
And that, along with everyone [being] treated with such respect. Sometimes I’ll get bogged down on a question, and I’ll get into the class, and I’ll ask it, and I’ll think, “Oh, I’m wasting everybody’s time because I’m wanting to have this conversation.” The instructors never make you feel that way. In fact, I’ll apologize afterwards.
I remember I did that with Professor Shelly. “I’m so sorry I took so much time to ask about this micro-nutrient.”
She said, “No! That’s what we’re here for.”
So I’ll see my colleagues start to have conversations, and our chefs will always come right back in with “Yes! And that reminds me of this.” It becomes a learning tool and not a “Gee, I wish that colleague had not spent that much time talking about it.” No. The contrary. When somebody comes in and asks this question that doesn’t even seem related, all of a sudden it gets turned into something I’ve learned that I may not have learned before.
I think that part makes Escoffier [special]. I’m not just saying this because I’m in this space. I think it’s a pretty extraordinary curriculum.
Maria Zouves’s Ultimate Dish
Kirk Bachmann: I’m so thankful for those comments. It’s so kind. We’re always learning and always trying to improve because our students are always changing and trying to improve.
Before I let you go, the name of our little show here is The Ultimate Dish, so I’m not going to let you out of the room before we hear a little bit of “Songbird,” and you tell us what the ultimate dish is. It could be a memory. Could be anything. What is the ultimate dish in Maria’s World?
Maria Zouves: I haven’t thought about that. Okay. This is counter-intuitive to the whole conversation that I was having.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh gosh!
Maria Zouves: It is, and I don’t mean it to be. I think it has to do if I’m going to turn it into a message as an educator, I’m going to say it’s a testimony to balance. Because for me, the ultimate dish is what I did last night. I sang, and then my wonderful friend here, Samantha Talora, who is also a beautiful singer here at Canyon Ranch. She books the talent here. She took me out knowing what I wanted, which I’ve been very good, very careful here. I’ve been IF-ing [intermittent fasting,] making sure I’m in a good space vocally to sing. I don’t like to eat before I sing.
She took me out to a local place here, and I had french fries with tarragon cream and two glasses of rose.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh!
Maria Zouves: It’s not so much that french fries are the ultimate dish, but it is a very funny thing in that I wrote a french fry song. It’s about this. It’s about living your life clean and well, but then saying to yourself: Sometimes what will make you the happiest and the healthiest mentally is a french fry. I can sing some of that for you right now.
Kirk Bachmann: Can I first say that no one has ever brought french fries in as the ultimate dish. I love that. Who does not love a great french fry?
Maria Zouves: With tarragon cream. This local place makes it. It’s really good. You just pour the cream on the fry right out of the fryer, so the cream soaks in with the heat of the oil.
Kirk Bachmann: Of course it does. There’s no place else to go.
Maria Zouves: I had two, and I thought, “That’s good. I had two. I’m not going to be able to eat more, really. It’s just not speaking to me,” until the tarragon started soaking in. Then I looked down, and the plate was empty. I don’t know how that happened. It was fantastic.
My mom made the best french fries. She would do an olive oil blend, just a little bit of olive oil with it, and she would slow oil them. She wouldn’t get the temperature up too high. I didn’t know why she was doing it then. I know now. She would do the parboil. She would-
Kirk Bachmann: Flash fry them in advance. That’s what you didn’t know.
Maria Zouves: That’s what I didn’t know. She would do that. The last batch was always Daddy’s because she would char them a little bit, but he liked them really, really dark. Our french fries were gone before she could put them on the table. She would fry a batch, and we’d eat them. Then she’d fry a batch, and she’d hit our hand and tell us not to eat them, but they were always [gone.]
Kirk Bachmann: My goodness.
Maria Zouves: So, yes. I wrote this song, and I sang it last night. It starts very seriously.
I’m an avid health fanatic eating well and sharing food.
I can make you something yummy quite unprocessed and so good.
Give me rainbow-colored veggies. I’m cruciferously spry.
But when no one else is looking,
even when I’m healthy cooking,
my heart calls to something from my youth that I just can’t deny.
“I want a french fry! Give me a french fry.
Dipped in ketchup, mayo, beer cheese, I will eat them till I die.
Yes, I know that they’re not good for me, and my good gut bugs might die,
but -my Lord! – there’s something Biblical about a good french fry.
There, I sang.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my goodness! You wrote it last night. You remember the words. Maria Zouves, my Lord.
Maria Zouves: I didn’t write it last night; I performed it last night. I wrote it at one o’clock in the morning one night.
Kirk Bachmann: You actually performed that last night?
Maria Zouves: I did! It premiered here at Canyon Ranch, of all places.
Kirk Bachmann: Did they love it?
Maria Zouves: They loved it, and they all agreed it was the elephant in the room. It’s a french fry.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my God, the elephant in the room.
Maria Zouves: My whole life’s desire for the next decade, to make people eat clean by talking about french fries.
Kirk Bachmann: I just texted my wife that I wanted tarragon cream tonight on anything. My goodness! This has been so much fun. Thank you. Thank you.
Maria Zouves: I’ve had a blast. You are amazing. And you have German roots, right?
Kirk Bachmann: Absolutely.
Music in Real Life
Maria Zouves: Is there an opera you like? Do you love Mozart and “Magic Flute.” I haven’t heard that aria forever.
Kirk Bachmann: What I grew up with that I remember, my dad is actually Bohemian, so after the war the borders changed. He has very Bavarian roots. The type of music that came from that region of Germany is Egerland, so it’s a little oom-pah band-ish. That’s what always played in our house.
Maria Zouves: That’s cool.
Kirk Bachmann: My mother wasn’t as much into the music, but my father…. My mother’s from Northern Germany – very proper. A big contrast. My parents are both still alive and enjoying life and doing the best they can.
Music, for me though, came much later. I love all music. I love country music. I love those six iconic bands up on the wall. I have four children, so you kind of go through their genres as well. My younger children are more difficult to understand, their love of music.
But isn’t music a beautiful thing? There’s rarely a kitchen that you walk into that doesn’t have some music playing in the background. It’s important.
Maria Zouves: I used to build little dinner parties when I was like twelve years old. I would play Dolly Parton’s latest album, and then I would curate food that would match it. I would make everyone come to dinner, listen to the album, and eat the food. It was probably God-awful, but I already had this idea that it should go together. It should always go together.
Kirk Bachmann: Do you ride motorcycles, too?
Maria Zouves: No. No.
Kirk Bachmann: That’s the one. Like I told you earlier.
Maria Zouves: Remember, I told you, I fall.
Kirk Bachmann: You’re a fall risk. I forgot.
Maria Zouves: I try not to die. I’m trying to stay alive as best I can.
Kirk Bachmann: I hope and I pray that you do. You have so much more gifts to give to so many. Your voice is extraordinary, beautiful. Congratulations on your continued studies. If there is any chance when you graduate that you can graduate in person here in Boulder, Colorado, I’d love to welcome you to the campus. We could jump on stage. We’ll get you up on stage.
Maria Zouves: I could sing at the commencement. “I want a french fry!” No. Just kidding.
Kirk Bachmann: That would be beautiful. I have to introduce you to Sylvia. Together, you’ll have to make something beautiful. She did know who your husband was. I don’t know that many people don’t.
Maria Zouves: It’s very funny because I have people that will say, “Oh, yes, I live in the opera world.” When I first got married to Sherrill – Sherrill Milnes, strange name. It was after the Right Reverend Henry Knox Sherrill. You can tell people that really don’t know the industry. My sister said, “My sister is with Sherrill Milnes.” They said, “Oh, I know her. She’s not even a very good singer.” They don’t know her because it’s not a “her.”
Kirk Bachmann: Because he’s from the Midwest. It’s a common name years ago in the Midwest.
Maria Zouves: He’s a true farm boy, growing up with church music and that kind of thing. Absolutely.
Kirk Bachmann: Maria, it’s been an absolute pleasure. We’ll stay in touch. Keep me posted on your studies. We’ll send you all the details before we go live in a month or so with this beautiful conversation.
Maria Zouves: You’re going to play “Songbird” to play out the recording.
Kirk Bachmann: I one hundred percent am. That’s what we’ll do! So Noelle’s listening. Boom. That’s what we’re going to do. Instead of my typical music, we’re going with songbird.
Maria Zouves: Let me tell you, Chef Kirk. You’re amazing. You have the gift of making someone feel at ease. No, to make them feel at ease and the most special person in the room. That is a gift that you have to make someone feel so…
Kirk Bachmann: Thank you so much. That’s very sweet and kind of you. Absolutely. That’s the goal. This is all about Maria.
Maria Zouves: Wow. How do you solve a problem like?
Kirk Bachmann: Right. Like Maria. I’m going to watch that this weekend again.
Maria Zouves: It’s fabulous.
Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. Hey, take good care. Good luck in Massachusetts, and be safe. We’ll talk again soon.
Maria Zouves: And good luck to everyone in the culinary world.
Kirk Bachmann: Thank you so much.
Maria Sings Us Home
Maria Zouves:[recording of “Songbird”]
Songbird sings from the heart
Each word can tear you apart
I sing, you sing along
You find your life in my song
When you need the strength to carry on
You’ve got me to turn to
With the songs that I sing
And the magic they bring
They’ve helped you be strong now
My song sets you free
But who sings to me
I’m all alone now
Who sings for songbird?
Sometimes when I’m all alone
I sing my saddest song
Lonely and no one can see
This time the song is for me
I can touch your secret place inside
And still you don’t know me
With the songs that I sing
And the magic they bring
They’ve helped you be strong now
My song sets you free
But who sings to me
I’m all alone now
Where is my songbird?
Where is my songbird?
Where is my songbird?
Where is my songbird?
Who sings his song for me?
Kirk Bachmann: Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify, and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.