The Ultimate Dish
The Ultimate Dish
James Beard Winner Charlie Mitchell on Leading Saga After James Kent
In today's episode, we chat with Charlie Mitchell, executive chef of New York's two-Michelin-starred Saga and James Beard Award winner for Best Chef in New York City.
Charlie opens up about one of the most difficult transitions in fine dining: leaving Clover Hill, the intimate 20-seat Brooklyn restaurant where he made history as the first Black chef in NYC to earn a Michelin star, and taking the leap to Saga's 63rd floor after the tragic loss of his mentor, James Kent. He discusses going from managing 8 employees to leading 100, the management challenges that blindsided him, and how he's honoring Kent's legacy while making Saga his own.
Join us as Charlie explains his "safe to learn" philosophy that's redefining kitchen culture, how Sunday dinners at his grandmother's houses in Detroit still influence his approach to fine dining, and how he balances nostalgia with technique.
TRANSCRIPT
Kirk Bachmann: Hello, everyone. My name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish. Today, we’re thrilled to welcome Chef Charlie Mitchell, the Michelin-starred and James Beard Award-winning Executive Chef who leads Saga, a two-star Michelin restaurant in New York City.
At just 33 years old, Mitchell has earned remarkable accolades, including his win as Best Chef in New York City at the 2024 James Beard Awards. This marks his second year as a nominee and makes him the only New York City chef to secure a victory at that year’s awards.
Before joining Saga, Mitchell helmed Clover Hill, where he made history by earning the restaurant a Michelin star and becoming the first Black chef in New York City to achieve this honor.
In 2022, he also received the Michelin Guide New York Young Chef Award, further establishing himself as a trailblazer.
A Detroit native, Mitchell is redefining fine dining by creating an atmosphere inspired by New York’s rich artistic culture.
His experience at renowned establishments like Eleven Madison Park and Betony has shaped his deep understanding of luxury dining.
As he continues to ascend in the culinary world, Mitchell remains dedicated to fostering mentorship and promoting diversity within the hospitality industry.
So get ready for a conversation about breaking barriers, honoring mentors, and creating a kitchen culture where everyone can thrive.
And there he is! Good morning. How are you, Chef?
Charlie Mitchell: Good morning. How are you doing?
Kirk Bachmann: I’m good. I’m good. That’s quite an intro. There’s a lot in a very, very short amount of years. You’re so young and talented. I’m super excited. Can I ask real quick: New York City, you’re in the restaurant, which is the right answer – “Where are you, Charlie?” “I’m in the restaurant. Of course I am.” What’s going on in New York? I’m sorry about the Mets, but I’m happy about the Tigers.
Charlie Mitchell: Yes. New York City is always great to me. It’s always alive. I feel like New York City is getting ready for the Knicks’ season. It really sets the city on fire.
Kirk Bachmann: Are you a sports guy?
Charlie Mitchell: Yeah.
Kirk Bachmann: Got to be a little bit.
Charlie Mitchell: Yeah. Always. That’s the only thing that really – if I’m attempting to get my mind off of food, sports helps, following the narratives and whatnot.
Experiencing Boulder and a Culinary Legend
Kirk Bachmann: That’s good. I love that. I’m right there with you.
I sit in Boulder. A few weeks ago, you were in Boulder. You were with our great friend – you’re great friend – Bobby Stuckey from Frasca. It gives me chills to even say that. We love the team at Frasca. We actually named one of our learning labs here at the school after Frasca. We have a big poster of Bobby in the hallway, and they hire a lot of our students. That’s the North Star for a lot of our students. “Hey, what do you want to do when you graduate culinary school?” “Oh, I want to work at Frasca.” “Well, let’s just talk about that for a minute. Let’s get you through school first and get you a little experience.”
But how was that experience?
Charlie Mitchell: It was amazing. First and foremost, it was my first time in Colorado.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh, okay.
Charlie Mitchell: My first time seeing it. I haven’t traveled a lot throughout my life, so it was my first time seeing a mountain so large. Arriving from the airport to Boulder, I was really taken aback by how beautiful it was. I think that’s what really hit me at first.
Then, working with the Frasca team was awesome. They’re great. I’ve always been a fan of longevity when I started this career, just trying to figure out how the great ones do it for so long, so to be around somebody like Bobby. This guy is a legend. What he’s done in his career and the amount of energy he has, how close he is with his team, how he touches all of his restaurants, and how he’s the main character in his space, too. It was just incredible to be around.
Kirk Bachmann: And a huge advocate for all of us in the industry. I think one of the things I love most about the team there…. You mentioned coming down 36 and you see what we call the Flat Irons in what we call the beginning of the Rocky Mountains to the west. Boulder’s not big. 125,000 people. To have cuisine at that level, that’s one plus, but the fact that Bobby is so connected to people like you and others around the country, he brings talent and stars and experiences to the restaurant that we would never have the opportunity to engage in otherwise.
Charlie Mitchell: Right before the dinner starts, you do introductions. You speak a little bit. First of all, we had dinner the night before – and Bobby’s not going to like this story – but we had dinner the night before. They opened the tasting with a glass of Cru champagne, and [I thought] “this is my favorite.” Bobby was like, “I remember my first glass of Cru.”
I was like, “Really?”
He was like, “Yeah. It was in 1992.”
I was like, “Dude, I was born in ‘92.”
Kirk Bachmann: No way! Oh my gosh.
Charlie Mitchell: Then the second night, I was talking to the guests at the dinner. “It’s always an honor for someone like me. Frasca’s been open, I think they celebrated 20 years. I’ve only been professionally cooking for eleven years. The opportunity to be in such an institution, this place that I’ve been looking up to for all these years, is really special for me.”
Memories of Home Hospitality
Kirk Bachmann: That’s so well said. It’s interesting. This past weekend on Saturday or Sunday, they had what’s called the Boulderthon downtown not far from the restaurant. 15,000 people. First they have a full race, 26-mile marathon. They have a half-marathon. They have a 10K, they have a 5K, they have a kid’s race. I showed up with about twenty students, and I did the 5K. I did come in ahead of the kid’s race and a guy named Elvis, by the way. I felt validated.
Later in the afternoon, I sent Bobby and Peter over at Frasca some pictures. Of course, nine people from Frasca ran the race. Of course, they ran the more intense marathon. That’s what’s really special about Boulder.
But let’s talk about you, Chef. I have to start with something that’s been on my mind since I’ve been reading about your journey over the last several months. I’m from Chicago, so I totally, totally get it. You describe yourself as “a kid from Detroit.” Despite all these incredible accolades – James Beard, first Black chef in New York City to earn a Michelin star. Do you still feel like that kid from Detroit? They can’t take that away from you. How did your family, your grandma, your upbringing in Detroit shape your approach to cooking and hospitality?
Charlie Mitchell: Absolutely. You can let the psychologist get into deeper stuff about how you stay connected to your inner child, but for me – absolutely. I put emphasis on that more so because of my emotional connection I have to dining and restaurants was the original reason why I made that. Half of the reason I said that is because I’m a LeBron fan, and he goes by “the kid from Akron.” That’s the other half of that reason, going back to sports.
Kirk Bachmann: I love it.
Charlie Mitchell: For me, the fondest memories were holidays, Sunday dinners growing up in my house. I genuinely remember being a kid and being so impressed how both my grandmother’s growing up were always able to feed anybody who came over.
Kirk Bachmann: Yeah.
Charlie Mitchell: Rain, sleet, snow.
Kirk Bachmann: They always had food! They always had food. Always. Right.
Charlie Mitchell: Friends, family, neighbors, enemies. People at church they didn’t really like, they would bring food to. To me, that was always very special. To me, that’s what restaurants are. Obviously, we can’t give the food away for free, which would be lovely if you could.
Kirk Bachmann: Wouldn’t that be something?
Charlie Mitchell: To me, that’s why I love staying in restaurants. I love the idea that anybody can come here and come have our food any day of the week, and there’s always something great for you to eat. That’s the connection to me. That feeling, those memories are always special.
Also, at a young age, I was so impressed. “How does she have so much food in here?” It’s like a never-ending deep freezer. If it’s not ready, she can pull it out of the deep freezer and have it ready for you in twenty minutes.
Kirk Bachmann: Always an apron on. Always an apron on.
Charlie Mitchell: I was so impressed. It was so special to me, and it still remains that today.
Kirk Bachmann: It’s interesting. One comment, and then a question. I got chills when you talked about the fact that they’re always ready.
This day in age – no offense to my buddies – when you tell somebody, “Hey, I’m coming over,” or they invite you over, they’re second sentence is, “Hey, do you mind grabbing some pizza or burgers on the way?” Whatever happened to just being ready when company came? We used to call it “when company’s coming over. Company’s coming over.” You were just ready. It’s just the way it was.
Charlie Mitchell: Of course.
The Discipline of the Kitchen
Kirk Bachmann: I have to ask. I’ve read that Detroit helped you a little bit with “tough skin.” Same with me. My father grew up as a pastry chef. He’s 90 now, but it was the same thing. He would take me downtown when he was delivering wedding cakes in downtown Chicago, and he used to always say, “Walk proud with your shoulders back. Have confidence. Be tough, otherwise people will take away from you.” How did that help you navigate and give you perspective? Growing up in Detroit, anywhere for that matter, to have tough skin and to navigate that into the intense but beautiful world of fine dining where, like you said, you have to welcome guests with open arms from anywhere, enemies or foes, and give them an experience that they’ll never forget.
Charlie Mitchell: Detroit is Detroit. It’s a great city, a lot of culture, music, history, fashion, all that kind of stuff. Sports. But it’s a tough city. For me, the kitchen was…I really found the kitchen between 19 and 21 years old. There are so many options at that age. Coming home from college. So many options to get into fun stuff, but also bad stuff.
Kirk Bachmann: Distractions.
Charlie Mitchell: Whatever you want to call it. For me, when I found the kitchen, it was about the discipline and the structure. It kept me out of trouble. It felt safe to me. Some people felt like I didn’t have enough adversity at school, outside of school, playing sports at a young age, etc. To me, when you’re in that environment, in the streets, whatever you want to call it, in a neighborhood, you could get beat up by a kid. You could get into worse trouble. If I’m in a kitchen, none of that is happening. None of that is happening.
Kirk Bachmann: People are working. They’re focused.
Charlie Mitchell: They’re working, so no matter how much your chef is screaming at you, or maybe they push a little bit, something like that is happening, but it’s not violent. It’s not life-threatening. To me, I was really able to see that for the first time. “This is just work. They just care a lot that the consomme is cloudy. If the consomme’s not cloudy next time, I’ll be fine.”
I think some kids who have never been through tough situations in life and they don’t really build resilience, and they’ve never dealt with failure, they take it a lot more personally and not professionally. For me, it was really, really easy to take it professionally [and] not personally right out the gate. I think that made the biggest difference, and just having tough skin. Words are words, but nobody’s waiting for you outside the kitchen at the end of the night. Nobody’s doing that kind of stuff. For me, I have tough skin. You can take it. It’s just words. At the end of the day – at least with the chefs I worked for – nobody was picking on me just because they felt like it. It was always about the work. Once I realized quickly, if you do the work right, you can fly below the radar. That was the answer.
Inspiration: Iron Chef and the Guests
Kirk Bachmann: I love that. I love the fact that you used the pragmatic example of the consomme being cloudy or not. That just says a lot. Did the kindness perhaps come from your family, from your grandma, from being around food like that, welcoming?
Charlie Mitchell: My approach to hospitality? I think so. Obviously, we all know that food brings people together.
Kirk Bachmann: In a beautiful way.
Charlie Mitchell: In a beautiful way, no matter what. Sometimes growing up, sometimes funerals were some of the best cookouts you could have. I think that’s special. It’s a very intimate act to cook for someone. It needs to be met with kindness, otherwise it’s a weird thing. I think people joke about the movie “The Menu” a lot because obviously it’s a movie, but if you aren’t welcoming and kind and setting the vibe with people, why would they want to break bread with you? That’s just contradictory to this entire thing.
Kirk Bachmann: The craft.
Charlie Mitchell: I do think as a cook, when you’re a young cook, you feel like it’s you versus the food, or you versus the sous chef, so sometimes you’re not necessarily happy having to cook by making that food. That’s something that I try to preach a lot to my team. “Hey, we’re doing this for the guests. It’s not for me. It’s not for you. You have to find that thing inside of you. You’re cooking for people. You’re doing this extra step for the guests.” When you could from that place, I feel like you can really, really enjoy it a lot more.
Kirk Bachmann: I love your earlier comments about how you felt safe in the kitchen. I’ll give you a perfect example of what it was for me. I grew up in my parents’ bakery and kitchens, so there was always this assumption that you’re going to do this. But I remember when I was really young, and Mark Miller was really popular. He did Southwest cuisine in Santa Fe, a bunch of restaurants all over. I think it was a “Food & Wine” issue, and on the cover was this Southwest steak on a silver plate. There was this giant bunch of herbs: rosemary, thyme, oregano. It was all wrapped up in twine, thrown up on top of this butter dripping off of this grilled steak. I remember ripping that page off. I carried it around with me for years. I thought I was going to play center field for the Cubs. I really thought that was going to happen. I ran from this industry, until I saw that cover. It’s a true story. It really inspired me. I want to cook food like that. I did a little bit of Southwest, but it wasn’t about Southwest cuisine; it was just about cuisine. It was about, “Look at that! Look what you can create!”
Was there a moment when you were in that kitchen, looking around, and something happened – you cooked something, somebody shared something with you, and you were like, “This is it! This is where I’m going to be?”
Charlie Mitchell: You’ll actually hate my answer. My first real fluttery inspiration was Iron Chef.
Kirk Bachmann: No way! Really.
Charlie Mitchell: I was a cook. I didn’t go home and do homework; I went home and watched TV all night. I got through my backpack. “This can all wait. I’m locked in on TV.”
Kirk Bachmann: You sound like my son.
Charlie Mitchell: 106 & Park, Food Network. Really, it was “Iron Chef.” I was obsessed with being a sushi chef at the time, so I was very obsessed with the detail and the intensity of “Iron Chef.” I thought, “Yo, this is crazy.” So I got really into that. Then, my grandmother used to actually have a recipe book. I started connecting the dots. “This lady is crazy. She’s the only home cook I knew growing up that was actually writing her own recipes, looking in cookbooks, cooking for us.” I thought that was a very serious thing. That’s what really made me want to cook.
Then I looked into being a sushi chef first. Then the American in me was like, “Wait. I’ve got to wash rice for ten years? That’s not going to work. I’ve got to be 25 with a house and wife.” When you’re young, that’s how you think. I thought, “That’s not going to work.” That was my first mission.
Then when I got my first job outside of Detroit, the first cookbook I ever saw was the Eleven Madison Park cookbook. Then I was like, “What are these guys doing out there?” They introduced me to the Robuchons, Escoffiers, the Gordon Ramsays, in that kitchen. I was overwhelmed with what cooking could actually be. That was the first cookbook I ever looked at. “Wow! This is crazy.”
Kirk Bachmann: I’m looking for my copy of “Unreasonable Hospitality.” You were there when Will was there right?
Charlie Mitchell: Yep. Talent.
Significance of the Michelin Stars
Kirk Bachmann: It’s must-reading for every instructor at Escoffier. It’s a great lesson in hospitality.
Chef, can you talk to us a little bit about yourself, making history, first Black chef in New York to earn a Michelin star. I just can’t even imagine. It must be this out-of-body sort of experience. I’m sure it takes time to really absorb it all, but did you know at the time the significance of that moment and what that represented for you, your family, this industry?
Charlie Mitchell: No, absolutely not. Sometimes I wish I could say I did, but no. When I first learned about Michelin stars, I knew there had never been a Black chef to ever get three stars. So that was pretty obvious to know that there was no Black chef with three stars at the time. There is always a short list of three-star restaurants in this country and in the world. That was very obvious. It had never, ever, ever crossed my mind that no Black chef had ever gotten one star in New York City. I found out the same time everyone else found out, in the ceremony.
Kirk Bachmann: Really? Wow!
Charlie Mitchell: At the end of the ceremony – I will never forget – we were on our way to our after party, and a buddy of mine Instagrammed it. He put on Instagram on his story, and he tagged me in it. I was like, “There’s no way that that’s true!” Then I found out googling it, it’s New York City! There’s no way.
From there, even then, I didn’t think people cared that much, to be honest. Okay, cool. I’m a food nerd. Nobody really cares about Michelin stars outside of people who care about food. Then, once I saw the impact and how many people that it would inspire, even how proud my family was, I thought, “Wow, this is much bigger than me.” That’s when it really hit me.
It actually took a couple months to hit me about how much bigger it was than just myself. From there, I think it’s just really special. And lucky. You’re just lucky in that moment to be able to be that impactful for a lot of cooks that look like me. And it’s still going.
Kirk Bachmann: I’m absolutely taken aback by your humility and your genuine kindness. Congratulations on all of that success! How does your success and your humility and your style open the doors for other young cooks to try to just sample a little bit of that success? I’m on Saga’s website. Do you know how much I love the fact that you list all of your team members in the kitchen on the website? God! It says so much. How do you open the door? Is it a lot of pressure on you?
Charlie Mitchell: I don’t know if it is added pressure. I think choosing to work in fine dining, you add a lot of pressure to yourself. Choosing to be in New York City, you welcome a lot of pressure.
I think for me it’s about representation and obviously when you see something, you can believe it. A lot of people are watching me and they see something that they can actually accomplish. But to me, it’s also about being honest with them about what it takes, what got me here, and what keeps me here. That was one of the biggest pieces of advice for me was from Chef Kent. When I reached out to him, everything was hitting the fan all at once: Clover Hill, Michelin star, media stuff. People were like, “Why don’t you do TV? Why don’t you write a book.” All this kind of stuff. I was like, “Yo, I just started. This is happening, but this is really my first year.”
He was the one who told me, “Just make sure you stay in the kitchen, keep working on your craft, and the rest will continue to follow.” At that time, I just needed someone as big as him to tell me that. Because you get pulled in a lot of different directions in this career. It’s always hard to navigate what to do. That’s the same advice that I continue to pass down. If you stick to the craft, if you want to do something like this, the rest will fall in line. Yes, it’s nice to have a little spotlight to be proud of you, etc., but what’s better is when people actually come to the restaurant, and they’re like, “Okay, I see why. I love what you do. I get it.” They understand it and they taste the work and attention behind it. To me, that’s the biggest piece: to be able to see someone you can believe in and believe that you can do it, but also getting real life advice. Build your craft. Be a great cook. Be a great chef, and the rest will happen.
Safe to Learn
Kirk Bachmann: I love how you use the term “craft” a lot and “cook” a lot. Again, growing up in my dad’s kitchen, when you’re young, you’re like, “Hey, when are they going to call ME chef?” and “When am I going to get this?” “When’s my name on the door?” My father always said to me, “Just strive to be a good cook for life; everything else will take care of itself.”
One of the things that, to me, really stands out, Chef, about your leadership style is “safe to learn,” your safe-to-learn philosophy. You’ve talked about creating environments where people aren’t scared in the kitchen. It’s safe, and they’re not being chased around. Can you tell us a little bit about how that philosophy, your philosophy, differs – maybe it doesn’t differ as much any more – from traditional fine dining and the culture that some people have in their minds around kitchens?
Charlie Mitchell: My very first stage in fine dining, which I was in way over my head, was in San Francisco, Benu, I remember, I was fresh out of Detroit at the time. I’d never been in a fine dining kitchen. I really emailed them on a whim, and they were like, “Yeah, sure, you can come.” I was like, “I don’t know.” I had no idea what I was walking into. I had no idea what I was walking into. I had no idea who Corey Lee really was, where he had been at. I just thought it was a restaurant where, “I want to go here.”
It always stuck with me when I was staging there that they would always give me a task. Then, before I would run off, they would say, “Do you understand the directions I just gave you? Do you understand what you’re being asked to do?” At first, it really threw me off because a lot of the time, you’re just thrown a task and you feel like you have to figure it out. If you don’t know, you’re nervous to tell your sous chef you don’t know. You may get sent home. You may get fired, or they may give the task to someone else that may know. I never loved that feeling.
I knew that when it was my turn, that I wouldn’t [revert] back to that. It’s okay to say you don’t know. It’s okay to tell me you’ve never done this before because the more you tell me, the better I am at teaching you in the first place. Just tell me. Let’s talk about it because you’re here to learn. That’s the whole point. Every cook who comes into this restaurant says, “Chef, I’m here to learn. I’m here to learn.” “If you guys are here to learn, then why are you afraid to ask questions?” That was always contradictory to me. To me, it was always super duper important. When it was my turn, it was like, “Hey, talk to me.”
Also, I’m a young chef, so sometimes we’re learning together. I’m very transparent like that. I do know a lot, but for me to stay on my toes, I have to get myself out of my comfort zone. I’m still building my cuisine. If I’m comfortable saying, “I’m working on this new dish. This came out bad, and I hate it” in front of my cooks, I don’t care about doing stuff like that. I think it’s very important to have that.
In some kitchens I worked in, that environment was there. In some kitchens, whoever knew the most did the most and then got ahead the fastest.
Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. In the kitchen, as in life, sometimes that happens. The lesson is very good for students as well that are going to culinary school that probably put too much pressure on themselves at times as well. Ask the questions. You’re here to learn. Let’s learn together. I love that philosophy. How do you connect that to this Michelin world, this benchmark, this milestone that defines excellence in dining and still keep that supportive learning, mentorship environment? It’s tough, I imagine.
Charlie Mitchell: That’s the hard part. You’re doing two things at once. You’re trying to build a culture, teach cooks, set them up for success, get them to move on. Sometimes we have to let them bump their heads a little bit. Sometimes we have to let them fall a little bit so they learn their lesson. You also have to protect the product. Every plate counts. Every guest counts. Everyone’s a VIP. People are paying $300-$400 for their meal, after alcohol upward of $1000. So you also have to protect your product at the same time. That is walking that tightrope. Let them get 89 percent, then we’ve got to be there to fix it. Sous chef team, you’ve got to be there to make sure you do protect the product. That is the balancing act.
But I think it’s about hiring, to be honest. I take hiring very seriously. If you can hire the right cooks, oftentimes they’ll know when to sound the alarm. They know when to ask for help. They care enough to not try to skate something past you that’s not approved. I find that is where you can have a little bit of peace of mind and security and not be a crazy chef. If you feel like every cook is out to get you, you end up in a place where you don’t want to be.
Great Chefs Are Not the Same
Kirk Bachmann: I love the feedback loop. I’ll use another sports analogy. My son’s a sophomore in high school. He’s a decent baseball player. They’re playing fall ball right now. Last week, he caught a high fly. I think it was in left field. He’s got an arm, and he wants to show off a little bit. He was going to get a runner at third that was tagging up. He had it in his mind that he was going to nail the guy at home. He didn’t get him. He didn’t get him. It was just too [long] of a distance. He was being fancy with his arm strength, the guy on first went to second, and the guy on second went to third. When he came in, the coach did the right thing. “Hey, great catch. Great throw. In the future, you’ve got to think about the whole game. We got out of the inning, but this guy on second could have scored again if somebody hit a single.” That kind of mentorship can transcend the kitchens and restaurants. It’s in life.
Can we talk a little bit about Daniel Humm and Chef Kent? In leadership: how did their leadership, the vibe in the kitchen with those legends, influence your style and perhaps your approach?
Charlie Mitchell: Those two guys are very, very different.
Kirk Bachmann: Great answer. I like that.
Charlie Mitchell: Working for Daniel, it was the moment really where it’s either perfect, excellent, right, or it doesn’t exist. To see how he built a machine, this institution, this culture of that level of excellence was just incredible. For me, I was like, “Wow!” Cooking there, working there – this is bananas. It was special to me. It was super duper inspiring. You’d just show up, and how hard it was, honestly. It was inspiring, but in some ways it was discouraging because you were just, ‘How could anyone ever have a restaurant like this?” How could I ever run a place this immaculate and with the level of hospitality that we were doing in the dining room, with the level of food we were doing in the kitchen, the cleanliness, the organization, the systems. This guy is a chef. He’s not just a good cook with good ideas. I never saw him really touch a stove at the time, but he was conducting crazy, intense business. He showed me what a three Michelin star chef was about.
I never got the opportunity to actually cook under Chef James. We met more so as colleagues. I wouldn’t call us peers because he was obviously the OG. His style was a little bit more “push from behind.” He really wants to build up his team. He wanted to build up confidence in everybody. Even myself, and I didn’t work for him. He made time for anyone and everyone to connect with and make them feel like a part of his journey and contributing to what he had going on. They were two very different approaches. They both had a train that was moving full speed, but they were very different.
Eleven Madison Park just taught you. It was relentless. It was absolutely relentless being there at that time. I’m not saying it’s not challenging to be part of a kitchen. It’s definitely a demand for excellence at the same time. It’s just a little bit different.
They both influenced my style in different ways. For me, it was having to do a little bit of both in different ways. Knowing when to put my foot down and say, “This is what I believe in. I think this is right.” Channeling my inner Daniel Humm. This is right. I don’t care what anybody else thinks.
Kirk Bachmann: It’s not what we’re doing.
Charlie Mitchell: You have to believe in yourself that much. I challenged James a lot in a sense of working with the team, teamwork, collaboration, culture building, getting everybody on the same page to do something special together. To really home in on teamwork, and having this championship mentality. “Let’s do this thing together. Let’s get this championship ring together.” Not think. At times, you have to be a little bit of both to work at this level in New York City.
Cooperation and Professionalism
Kirk Bachmann: Again, using sports analogies, everything you read about Michael Jordan, there was no other way other than the way he was going to ask you to perform. And LeBron and others who have risen to the top of their sport, their craft.
For culinary students who are listening to our chat, and they’re about to enter professional kitchens, or re-enter after their education, I really think your perspective is crucial. What do you believe a young culinarian should look for – what did you look for – in a mentor? I love the way you’re able to decipher, discern, the difference between Daniel’s and James’s styles and how it impacted you. Do you have any advice for a young culinarian in how they should approach that?
Charlie Mitchell: I think it’s challenging. For me, I took the approach that I can learn from anyone either what to do or what not to do. I think, to me, where I could have been a lot better at starting off, you’ve got to learn how to listen. You’ve got to learn how to take advice. You’ve got to be open-minded to that. We really want to get with the ones that really share information. That’s important. I was always a big question-asker. You want to be willing to learn, you want to ask questions, but the ones that are really willing to give you the game, they’re not intimidated by you, they’re not afraid you’re coming for their sous chef job or afraid you’re going to take over their restaurant, or a cook that’s not afraid you’re going to take their station, those are the good eggs in my opinion. If your meat roaster will show you how they cook and give you their tips and their tricks, okay. Latch onto that person. See what other information you can get out of them. Do that from the top, down all the way to the top. Those are the ones who, to me, give the most impact to me in my career, who would just give me as much information as possible.
Understanding that in this world of cooking, we’re not actually competing with each other. There are enough guests to go around. In reality, there are enough restaurant stars to go around, at least in my opinion. I think that we should be more of a community and give each other as much help as possible.
Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. I was going to next ask how you approach training young cooks. I think you answered that. What I think I’ll ask then is: what would you want those young employees, teammates, to learn beyond cooking technique? It’s tough.
Charlie Mitchell: I think for me it’s also teaching them the value – like you referenced – working for James and working for Daniel, both of them are aligned. Professionalism is first. They both had that in common. You’ve got to show up. You’ve got to be professional. You’ve got to look good, whether you have to shave everyday at EMP or whether you have to have your beard trimmed and lined up. Showing up on time. Being prepared. I think that translates into the real world as well. I think that’s something I always continue to preach. You’ve got to get good at cooking, but you also have to get good at life and being professional. That’s going to help you get ahead. I’m hoping they take that seriously after they leave here.
I also encourage them to learn more about the restaurant business. I’m very transparent with my cooks. I think when you’re young, “Oh, caviar, truffles, and tweezers, and fluid gels,” which is great, and I love all that kind of stuff, but in my opinion it’s just not that era anymore where you can be the wizard behind the stove. If you ever want to get to the top, you’re going to have to learn a little bit of real estate. You’re going to need to learn a little bit of finance. You’re going to need to learn some leadership skills, some people skills. You’re going to have to learn all this stuff that I was not prepared for. To me, I’m just always pushing all of those things on them so one day they can actually be entrepreneurs, business owners, and be successful.
When I started at Clover Hill, my biggest issue was getting the trash picked up, and I had an oven that kept breaking. Now, I’m just trying to work on this new menu, and they won’t pick up the trash. The building keeps calling me. I don’t know how to fix it. I don’t know how to fix this oven. Food wasn’t the problem. It rarely is if you’re really locked into this. The dishes and the food are not the hardest part.
Saga
Kirk Bachmann: I love that you say that because guess what? We struggle with the trash and the equipment at the school as well, by the way.
You mentioned Clover Hill. I hope to segue into taking the big leap. Chef, if we could talk about, from what I’ve read, one of the most significant transitions in your young career, moving from Clover Hill, 20-seat Brooklyn restaurant – I can imagine it – to Saga. I don’t know if you’re on the 63rd floor, but I think you’re close.
Charlie Mitchell: I’m on the 66th floor right now.
Kirk Bachmann: Above Manhattan! Beyond the trash and the equipment, what was that like, leaving Clover Hill, a restaurant you co-founded and where you made history, to Saga? Perhaps maybe talk a little bit about James and the impact of losing him, what that had on your life?
Charlie Mitchell: That’s a big question. I’ll start with that me and James were having sushi at Noz Market. I forget his exact words, but he was like, “You have a little restaurant. It’s cute. First, you’re going to have to run a real restaurant.”
At the time, I was like, “Yo, what are you talking about? I got a Michelin star. What do you mean I’m not running a real restaurant? You’ve eaten my food. You know it’s real.”
I remember walking into here, and I’m like, “Oh, this is what he meant.”
Kirk Bachmann: It makes sense.
Charlie Mitchell: Almost a hundred employees. You’re running your main dining room menu, four PDR [private dining rooms] rooms. You also do the food for the bar, Overstory, above us, which is a World 50 Best bar. Two Michelin stars. We’re a Relais & Châteaux property. I had eight total kitchen staff, including myself, at Clover Hill. I have seven sous chefs here alone, about twenty cooks, wine director, [art] director, culinary director, reservationists, HR department. That’s just the start.
It was really a crash course. It is still sometimes a crash course, the steps of being a real chef and being a real leader, and learning how to inspire people on your day off, seven days a week. Clover Hill was five days, and in the summer, we would go down to four days. This is seven days a week. It’s a beast. Learning how to build a culture, inspire everybody, learn everybody’s name, touch base with everybody, care about everybody. At first it was like, “What did I get myself into?”
Also, into that same conversation, James talked about opening Saga. He opened Saga to be the best restaurant in the world. “You don’t put a restaurant 60 stories up in a skyscraper in New York City if you want it to be a regular, average restaurant.” I think that is still in the DNA of this place. The number one restaurant in the world is kind of arbitrary, subjective, but what does that mean to us, internally as a team here in the company. We have a list of things that were super important to him that he said to me. “Leading with respect. The food. The teamwork. The collaboration.” Just trying not to mess this place up. It’s such a special restaurant.
The transition was definitely by far the hardest thing. I don’t think I’ll ever do anything harder than running this restaurant and the way that I came into it given the circumstances. Also, the outside pressure of retaining two Michelin stars and being left for the accolades to still accrue for this restaurant.
The Flavors Will Prevail
Kirk Bachmann: Thank you for sharing that.
Chef, you’ve talked about flavor over flare. For our listeners, could you provide us with just a little bit more philosophy into that approach and, to your point, around the expectations at Saga, how do you continue to maintain that approach at Saga?
Charlie Mitchell: Again, that started with me because when I first started cooking, I was obsessed with a lot of [trends]. I think molecular gastronomy was cool at the time, and a lot of Joel Robuchon’s stuff. How many dots can you fit on a plate? How many gels can you make? Can you make things float or smoke? I was coming up in that era. I think a lot of that stuff is cool, and some chefs are really, really good at it, but as I started cooking with restaurants and I started eating a lot more, to me, I think flavors are more memorable. They connect to you, whether it is hidden points of nostalgia or something you grew up eating, or something you’ve never tasted before. I think that connects with people emotionally a lot more than the visual side of what we do in fine dining. I think the pictures are great. Social media is great, but I think how you make that person feel is going to happen through what they taste and what they experience.
Kirk Bachmann: Gosh. That’s beautiful. Yeah.
Charlie Mitchell: For me, that’s the most important thing. Obviously, we have a sandbox and we’re playing. You’re getting a Michelin star and stuff like that. Definitely, the visual side of it does matter. But throughout the menu, especially when it comes to the warm, hot dishes, we’re not going to sacrifice temperature or flavor for how many touches we can put on a plate.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh! I’m so happy to hear you say that. Our students want 35 touches with tweezers before it goes out. I’m like, “You’re missing the boat!”
Charlie Mitchell: I was at final service a couple weeks ago. I’ll call it. I was telling a cook, “Yo, hot food is a technique.” Hot food is special. Saucing table-side is cute, but it’s also making sure you have a better chance of the sauce being hot when it hits the plate. You go out to a lot of experiences, and your food is not hot. Hot food should be hot and cold food should be cold. I think there’s skill and attention to detail in that. For me, that’s how it always will be. The flavor will win over anybody. I don’t care how many Michelin stars it has; the flavors will prevail.
Having Fun with Food
Kirk Bachmann: I think Escoffier is smiling right now. I think he would love to hear you say that.
I think he also would love cornbread with gold caviar. I think he’d also love caviar with brown butter and brioche. It’s a beautiful riff on ice cream and cake. How do you balance that fine dining technique with the nostalgia that you’re presenting? Cornbread with gold caviar. Wow! Where’s that come from?
Charlie Mitchell: I will say it’s a challenge. I think it’s a part of the journey. For me, I fell in love with a lot of classic fine dining. As you cook, you start putting more and more of your personality into the food, hopefully. Also, just having fun with it. Sometimes I’ll do something because I think it’s funny. I think it’s funny to pair cornbread and caviar together. Then you have to taste good and taste beautiful and look good, but sometimes I think this is kind of hilarious. Let’s have a little fun with this bite.
I think of that course. We also have a course right now [where] we do a tempura fried fish with a little tartar sauce aioli, which to me is fun. Who doesn’t want to eat fried fish dipped in tartar sauce? We all love that.
Kirk Bachmann: It brings back memories.
Charlie Mitchell: You make it fancy. Get some Japanese fish. You get a really nice tempura recipe, and you put it on a Hering Berlin plate, and you put it 63 floors up in the sky, and all of a sudden it’s a fine dining dish. But it’s really about me thinking about fish fries going up, and missing being at home, and trying to put that on the menu. I think that is where it’s at, showing personality and having fun with it. I think you can get really caught up in the framework of what you think a three star meal is. You’re like, “It has to be this by this. It has to be this.” No, not really. For me, they’re humans. They’re going to come here, and they are also humans. If you can strike that nerve with even a Michelin inspector, you’ll get there.
How Music Sets the Mood
Kirk Bachmann: If there’s something a little familiar, it immediately relaxes the anxiety or any stress that they might have. “Oh my gosh! What is this on the menu?”
I want to talk a little bit about music. I don’t know if you can see it all. I’ve got Marco Pierre White over here. That was a certain style in the kitchen, right. We talk to a lot of thought leaders and chefs all year long. It always comes back to either motorcycles, music and food, or all three. I love reading. I’ve got Fleetwood Mac and Dave Matthews. I have Bob Seger – Detroit – right there! I’ve got Bob Seger up on the wall. Bobby has a restaurant in Denver next to Tavernetta called Sunday Vinyl. Their whole thing is that his wife selects an album every night. They play that music for the customers. It sounds like you’ve curated a 90s R&B playlist for Saga. I’m really curious how – I love this by the way – how does music influence the energy of your kitchen and your dining room? Does it catch people off guard a little bit?
Charlie Mitchell: Absolutely. I think it started in Brooklyn. For me, it was important, too. A lot of the cultural aspects. Number One, I think music, wine, and food is the perfect combination.
Kirk Bachmann: Oh gosh, yes.
Charlie Mitchell: Especially if you’re cooking at home, some music, a little bit of wine. I think it sets the mood and the tone, etc. Also, for me, Clover Hill was an open kitchen, but people, they maybe saw the Michelin star, but they see this certain kind of food. Once they heard the music, I knew they were going to [think] the connection is complete. I think, “How else can I put my personality into the dining room besides just the food and what the servers are saying?” Also, people feeling the vibe that I want to create in the space. I think that was important to me, and then it got more and more important to me. I think it’s just fun. It catches people off guard.
Again, going back to what Saga was when it was open, Chef James wanted to be a little bit abrasive. He wanted to be new and modern. There were no tablecloths. There were no big carts, no cheese carts. There were no pretentious feelings. Okay, we need to keep that going. How many fine dining restaurants can you come [to], and the music is a little bit louder than you expect? You can sing along a little bit. You catch a different kind of vibe. It doesn’t really exist in what we do. I think that makes it a special experience, a place where you can actually have fun and laugh, and you can drop your fork, and you can maybe break a wine glass at the end of the meal. You’ll be a little bit embarrassed, but you won’t feel like we’re going to put you out. We won’t ban you from the restaurant. I think some fine dining restaurants can make you feel that way a little bit. They can make you feel intimidated. Like you said, it immediately makes people let their guard down. They get in the elevator here, they catch a vibe, and they immediately feel comfortable. We know we have them to win them over from that point on.
Worker Bee to Leader
Kirk Bachmann: I’m looking at one of the photos on the website. Just the color of the walls and the lights dim and the round tables, which sort of welcome anyone to it, versus the stark 90 degrees. Of course, the beautiful views from the high rise of New York City. For students, Chef, or young culinarians who are dreaming of running something like this or being an executive chef of a major operation like this, is there a big difference between being the worker bee and being in charge? You mentioned Daniel wasn’t always cooking the food, but he was overseeing every operation, everything that was happening. Sometimes that’s a transition, to go from being a great cook to being a great, great manager of process. Are there some other skills that you would suggest that students should really try to focus on if this is their goal?
Charlie Mitchell: I would say you’ve got to respect the process, and you’ve got to be in love with the journey. That’s also a trait from Daniel himself. It’s something he spoke to me about. He was like, “You have to fall in love with the journey. If you don’t, it just gets rough.”
It’s in phases. When you’re a young cook, you need to be a worker bee. You need to get as much experience as possible. You need to learn as much about food history as possible. You need to actually know what you’re doing. You can make the sauce. What if the sauce breaks? What if it splits? Do you know what to do? Do you know why it happened? Then, eventually when you get to be a young sous chef, you’ve got to start learning leadership. You’ve got to learn those people skills and how to connect with people. I think that is where the real gold is at. [At a] small kitchen, you can learn through osmosis, just standing next to each other. You can holler. You can fix. You can touch everything, but the moment you can’t touch everything, and if you can’t communicate effectively, if you can’t inspire, and lead, and get inside of their brain a little bit, it’s not going to work out.
Some cooks – I probably shouldn’t say this – but I’ll say the sous chef is sometimes the worst position in the kitchen because you’re not cooking as much. You’re doing a little bit of paperwork, but you’re not doing all the administrative stuff. You’re kind of in this middle zone. I think before you get to that point, make sure you really feel comfortable with your cooking skills before you take that sous chef job. Once you get that sous chef job, really start to focus on your actual leadership ability and not just if you’re smarter than the cooks and you can tell them what to do. Can you actually lead this section, whether it’s just a garde manger section or your A.M. section, wherever the section is, are you actually leading these kids? If you can do that combination of both, I feel like that’s what the greats do. The greats, they’re just good at both. It’s incredible. Everybody wants to work for Daniel. They want to work for James. They want to work for Thomas Keller. They want to work for Cory Lee and Grant Achatz. I think that is special.
For me, as a young chef, I’m still trying to build that. I want people to want to work here.
Kirk Bachmann: People do want to work for Charlie Mitchell. I love that. I’m glad you did share that.
I want to be respectful of our time. We’ve got just a couple more things that I wanted to share. Chef, I really appreciate you taking the time today. I watched a great interview on YouTube over the weekend. The person who interviewed you asked a great question. They said, “Who is Charlie Mitchell?” I’d love to steal that and say, “Who’s Charlie Mitchell today?”
Charlie Mitchell: Hopefully, it’s the same answer. I still feel like I’m the kid from Detroit who just loves cooking for people. I will say, the only difference is today I’m a lot more focused on trying to use food as a language to really communicate a point of view and a perspective on hospitality and food and the world of restaurants. That’s my love, and that’s my passion.
Charlie Mitchell’s Ultimate Dish
Kirk Bachmann: I love that. That’s a great answer. I just took a picture of us. I’m going to shoot it over to Bobby and say hello.
One final question, and I love this question. Everyone’s answer is different. There’s no quiz, Chef, but the name of the podcast is The Ultimate Dish. In your mind – I’m thinking that cornbread and caviar has got to come up somewhere here! – but in your mind, what is the ultimate dish?
Charlie Mitchell: That’s hard for me because I love food too much to pick a dish. I will cheat a little bit and I will pick a meal.
Kirk Bachmann: That’s good.
Charlie Mitchell: To me, the ultimate dish is a Thanksgiving meal.
Kirk Bachmann: Really.
Charlie Mitchell: I think that’s special. Whether your family does a potluck situation or whether you have one person who cooks it all, but I think anytime you can get family and friends gathered around the same meal together and break bread and drink a little bit and maybe argue a little it – whatever you do in the family, play games, whatever – I think that’s the most special meal. I think I’m going to pick Thanksgiving dinner.
Kirk Bachmann: I think that’s a perfect answer. I’m not surprised by that answer from you. It’s wonderful.
By the way, “respect the process and fall in love with the journey.” We have a graduation this Saturday. We’ll probably have 1500 people there, many online students. I’m going to give you credit, but I’m totally going to open up with “Fall in love with the journey.” Beautiful words.
Chef, thank you so much for taking some time with us today.
Charlie Mitchell: Absolutely.
Kirk Bachmann: Continued great success. Yeah. I’ll be to New York soon, and when I am, I’m going to give you a call. I’m going to come up to the 63rd floor.
Charlie Mitchell: Please do. We would love to have you.
Kirk Bachmann: Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify, and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.