#318 - When Packaging Talks Back: Will Print Listen? ep#2

This episode is 2 of 2 and is an interview with keynote speaker Güneri Tugcu 

Following the themes of 'When Packaging Talks Back', we ask 'Will Print Listen'?

What if the most valuable thing you print isn’t colour or coverage, but credibility? We explore how connected packaging turns labels and care tags into living product identities, and why printers who embrace this shift can move from commodity supplier to trusted strategic partner.

We dive into the rise of digital product passports in fashion and beyond, where serialized QR codes and NFC bring traceability, compliance, and authentication to the front line. That task sits squarely in print’s wheelhouse—if we evolve. We talk through the real blocker (culture, not hardware), and show how hiring for curiosity and consultative skills can complement world‑class engineering. Instead of chasing the same specs as ten competitors, bring brands a clear outcome: compliance readiness, anti‑counterfeit protection, first‑party data, and consumer engagement powered by the codes you print.

Compensation models often sink good ideas, so we unpack how capital‑equipment sales incentives clash with recurring software and analytics. The answer isn’t a full rebuild. Start small with a blended pilot team—press veterans, product thinkers, and sustainability voices—tasked to run workshops, shape simple offers, and co‑sell with marketing, legal, and procurement in the room. We share practical steps to reposition as a partner: frame connected packaging as the foundation of data, trust, and long‑term brand value; measure learning speed, not just revenue; and invite diverse minds to pressure‑test solutions before they hit the line.

By the end, you’ll have a roadmap to stand out in tenders on more than price, earn a seat at higher‑level conversations, and future‑proof your business as regulations tighten and buyers demand richer product experiences. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with your team, and leave a review telling us the first pilot you’ll run.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Future Print Podcast. We have episode two of a discussion with Gunery Tukku, who uh leads RPAC uh commercial, and is as you can tell from the previous episode with Goonery, which we entitled When Packaging Talks Back. Um, he's an expert really in connected packaging and is very, very aware of the print industry, but perhaps not from um from from a connected point of view, but not necessarily from the print industry. Goo Gunnery kick welcome back. And um, as I said, the first episode was called When Packaging Talks Back, and I think the theme of this is will print listen? And and that's key, isn't it? Because we what uh just so everybody knows, we had a chat offline after we stopped recording. I was like, actually, you need to say this because this is really important, and so it this is episode two. So, Goonery, uh looking back, connective packaging, what a fantastic opportunity. What does the print industry need to do to embrace that? I guess. Get give us your viewpoint on that.

From Speeds And Inks To Strategy

Culture Change Over Tech Change

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, first of all, thanks again um for reconnecting on this. And I think you're right, and your title is perfect. Like, um, is the industry going to listen? Because what I sense, and this is not from a high point of know it all and and knowing things better than anyone else in the industry, but what you clearly sense in the conversations at great conferences like yours or you know, Drupal, and just talking to the core industry, you know, the printers, the converters, the packaging people, uh, the inkjet, inline, and all that stuff, uh, producing and distributing companies, is it's basically enabling all of the things we discussed in the previous episode and what everybody is talking about connected packaging, connected products. Now, at one point, somebody needs to add the codes to it. And if we just look at something that is really uh trending very heavily right now, which is uh the digital product passport for a fashion, we're talking about adding a serialized QR code or NFC, depending on use case and product, but somebody needs to apply a serialized QR code on a product, on a care label, um a packaging. And I think that's something where we need to move away from being faster, more reliable, using less inks, better viscosities, and all that stuff towards more thought leadership. And what we discussed, and I think what we a lot of us agree on is it changes it requires a change of culture as well, right? One is the adaptation of technology, um, connected products, connected packaging. The most important and the more relevant layer actually is change of culture. Now, um, you might have the best engineers in the world, that's great, but are they the right one? Are they the right thought leaders to convince and support brands to engage with them and talk with them about what you're actually enabling rather than serving? And I think that's something where companies also need to take a step back, look holistically at it, and maybe it requires an adaptation and change of uh hiring processes, right? Hire for culture versus higher for degrees, right? And especially here in Western Europe or in Central Europe, especially in Germany, uh, when you look at openings and companies, they're still looking for the same profiles: 25 years, four languages, five years of experience, and a master's degree in engineering, ideally, and uh the willingness to do the job for you know not really high salaries. So um it's always the same profile. You can look at immediately at 10 companies and you will find almost 10 identical openings. But what it's lacking is actually the kind of people that are visionary, kind of like evangelists that share the idea. So instead of going to the next brand and competing with 10 other inline inkjet printing packaging uh competitors, why don't you invest in the two people and knowledge to go to your brands and consult them to support them? What we're doing is enabling you for compliance, sustainability, um, trade controls, authentication. It all starts with the printed packaging, the product. And I think that's something that seems at least not very clear for many companies. They're still competing on the same messages uh like the past 10, 20 years. But I think what's needed is go on a level where you are actually consulting and supporting brands to understand that what you're doing is much more than adding a little ink on a product.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, and and the you know, and I guess that that that kind of culture's been built over many, many years and been the dominant pervading kind of way of doing it. And I guess if you're in a business that's a lot of print businesses, both technology or OEMs, but also production companies have been legacy businesses that have been around for a long time, and there's there's an inbuilt strength in that, in um, a lot of the values and inherently positive. Um, but what tends to happen, like you s seem to be hinting at, there, is that you get the same people doing the same things generation after generation, and what that builds is a little bit of a limitation, really, and it becomes an echo chamber. And uh, what you're suggesting is that print really is a pivotal part of this, yet the behaviour set doesn't quite chime with the new technology landscape that's opening up, which is connecting the consumer to directly to the print far more inherently, therefore, requires different mindset, slightly different culture, different leadership, and even an array of different people, right?

Rethinking Roles And Hiring

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Exactly. And and that's a perfectly summarized uh summary of the situation right now. When you talk to the leaderships, and I I'm privileged and blessed to to attend a lot of workshops with executive leadership people, and they're always asking the same questions when, you know, in between the breaks, when you have a coffee outside and all that stuff, like, you know, what can we do different? And I have a hard time, you know, getting my people uh succeeding and all that stuff. And it's simple. Now imagine you're a print press manufacturer, right? And you pay people on commission, which is usually the case on sales jobs, and they're supposed to go out and sell a press for$5 million, 10 million, 20 million dollars. Now you're asking them to sell a subscription service for business intelligence that goes with that marking, with that coding, printing. And obviously the subscription is maybe 10, 20,000, 50,000 uh euros a year. So the compensation model is completely unattractive for them, right? Uh they would rather go out and focus on selling the next press, even if it takes a year or two, than go out and sell the subscription service. And that's not because the people are not smart enough or they are not good in what they're doing, it's just the wrong profile for the wrong product. So you can't, with all the fairness, expect um your staff that has been doing what they have been doing for 5, 10, 20, 30 years in some cases, now become software people, business intelligence people, innovation people. That's just not going to happen. And that's also not fair to expect. You have been, you know, training and scaling them up on one particular thing because it worked for the past 50 years. Now things are evolving very quickly. Now you're competing with software companies, with SaaS solution providers, uh, with different kinds of people, different kinds of speed, right? That's also the thing. Yes, you can hire right people, but this also requires you to change the way you are maybe structured. Maybe your uh process of approval, your leadership needs to change because now you're getting people that are all about disruption innovation. You can't manage them the way you do a salesperson selling a print press. That's just not gonna work. So uh there's a saying in Germany that fish stinks at the head, and I think this is something that needs to be realized and recognized at the leadership level, and then break down to the people, um, hire the right people, include new profiles, new different thinking minds and heads and experts, and then combine the strength.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, and and and I guess somebody listening to this would be like, well, uh a business structure and models entirely focused around that. What you're asking them to do is to entirely rebuild their business model, and and I guess that may seem a little threatening maybe or or super challenging, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a complete river. You know, you could set up a a department within the business or a subdivision and start you know, start the process of of change by trial and error. And a lot of I I think people don't change partly because they're frightened of that change.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

But there are ways of doing this, aren't there, where you can learn and change at the same time and not disrupt too much.

Compensation Clashes With Subscriptions

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Exactly. And and quite frankly, that's not likely going to happen, right? If we talk about most of the big players within the packaging and industry, they're all big, traditional and and still very successful companies. So we're not asking them to completely, you know, change from black to white and from one to zeros, but you need to start somewhere. And that could be a small team that just supports those very bright, smart, experienced experts you already have. It's a combination of adding the necessary flavors, kind of like making a good dish and adding the right spices to it. It's not necessarily completely changing a menu, but instead of going out and again competing on a sales pitch with five or ten different companies for the same solution. One is better, it's faster, cheaper, more reliable, all that stuff. Yes, correct. But why not add people that actually give the customers the sense of a consultative approach, knowing, hey, these companies, these guys are actually helping me to understand it and to change because the companies will have to change. They are in a position where disruption is without an option, right? You know, DPP for fashion and car batteries right now, and then moving on to much further uh categories and industries by 2030. Also, the trend of consumers, you know, Gen Z, millennials, uh, the market is changing and the brands have to change, right? So this is the time where you can actually go out and have a different conversation than the same one where you're talking about the next euro cents and negotiate up and down to get a deal done. This is where you can build long-lasting, trusted relationships, add value to people having you and listening to you. Uh, and then your conversation is not necessarily with the same people you have been talking to for the last 20 years, procurement and tech people. Maybe now marketing joins, maybe now sustainability compliance people join. And it's not about being the one-stop shop and knowing it all, but it's just enabling you to sit at that desk, at that table, and be part of those conversations about change rather than you know, the guy who's just printing and serving, because you're just missing out um the future business case for yourself. So you're 100% right. It's not about questioning everything in disruption, but it's starting somewhere small and adding some flavors to what you're already successfully doing and then winning at the right time by being, you know, a partner rather than a servant.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, and and the key word you use there, it's serve. And I've I've always felt that traditional printing is seen as a serve, you know, that almost like a servant kind of dynamic as opposed to a partner dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Um and that shift is may sound small, but it's it the perception is huge, isn't it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

I mean, again, we all know, and you know, I've worked almost 20 years in in a packaging, print and preprint industry, right? It's all about the next one who's two cents, five cents, ten cents cheaper and all that stuff. But how long are you going to make that raise? Like, you know, at one point it's just not working anymore financially. The commercials are not working well anymore for you, and then you're losing a brand. But if you are able to sit at a table with the right stakeholders about true change, then you're valued as a partner, as a consultative, you know, um support rather than somebody who's just doing ink on paper or foil or or flex uh materials and all that stuff. So I think it's it's really about the perception you can win by just being part of the conversations rather than the one who just executes what somebody else somewhere decided.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah, and and that does require a mind shift change, but it really isn't um an impossibility, is it? Um do you feel personally? I mean, it sounds you frustrated by that a little, that the print industry is a little bit of a uh a laggard. I wouldn't go as far, I just did, but you know, sometimes a bit slow to the party.

Start Small: Build A Consultative Team

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, it's because they never had to, right? It was all about you know quality, speeds, the commercials, right? To be fair. And that's all correct. It's right. It's we're talking when we talk about CPG, it's all about cost, right? We're talking about a million shampoo bottles, 200 million, I don't know, dairy drink, uh plastic bottles, and all that stuff. So it's always about speed, quality, and cost, you know, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, more efficient, which is correct, and it's fine. But um what it really enables you is just to have a different conversation because I would bet if you talk to the salespeople and you know the experts out there, at one point everybody gets tired, you know, just negotiating about pricing and not caring about anything else. And this is a a time where with small nuances you can actually enrich the whole experience working with you as a solution provider, as a printer. Because um, we're not expecting you to become a SaaS and innovation expert. That's not the case, but having an understanding of wait a second, now you know, with these compliance regulations and all that connected experiences stuff with new generations of shoppers and buyers, we're now starting to discuss something completely different. And it's just having some sort of a passion to understand, hey, look, this is where it all starts. This is the foundation of all of it. We put the ink on the product, whether it's a care label or packaging, and that enables you to scan it and first-party data, consumer engagement, authentication, compliance, all that stuff. So I think companies need to just give or identify the right people. Let's say that way. Give them some freedom to learn, to invest time in research and get a proper sense. Because let's be honest, they all know about printing. Like you don't need to tell them about printing and all the applications. What they need to do is just have some more time to look back and understand the holistic side of it, and then have those conversations. I remember when I started with the whole connected thing, it's it was a seven slides uh presentation that I went out. And within two years, it was 196 workshops and I think six hours of connected packaging education. Because the more you dig yourself into it, the more you understand, the more you have examples that you can use to explain and make it simple. So I think part of it is either identify the right people in your company. And you know, a lot of times these companies are big and there's a big pool of talent. So again, change of mind, change of culture means also see what skills your employees might have that you're not utilizing so far. Maybe there are some really smart, disruptive, and and speedy people that can take that topic, give them the time and freedom to invest into it and learn and research and go to a few conferences like yours, workshops, and get a good sense for the topic and then let them go out and and let's say preach it to the brands to also change the perception of hey, you know, this this solution provider is not just printing. They're actually smart guys, they help you on all these topics. So it's not rocket science that we're really talking about. It's a lot of um passion that goes with this.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, and and learning and and being able to be at that level where you can have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I think it's it's it's changing the dynamic from transactional, isn't it? From a which is like you say, prices, yeah, it's a fairly uh important but equally you know, one-off conversation. Are you really building a strategic relationship there? Or somebody do it cheaper and get the business um into someone or uh an offering that is not just challenging but is is able to create value that is strategically exciting for the customer. And what you're suggesting by doing this, this is a way of of forging that that new way within within a business. Because, like you say, the one-dimensional conversation isn't enough anymore, is it? It also reminds me that the way people buy, whether it's business to business or big you know, business to consumer, is changing as well, isn't it? I think people people are far more uh we use the word pro promiscuous, willing to change, willing to leave. So you need to build that stronger binding relationship, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Exactly. I mean the the question is simple. You're you're part of an tender, right? Every three years, five years, usually, and you're competing with five or six printers if we stick to packaging. What is it that separates you apart from your price, right? Um not much, to be honest, because they all have the good prices usually, they all have uh engaged salespeople, they promise you the world. Uh one might have a better service, one might have more experience. But what really separates you from and also from a company perspective, like if I'm in in that position, I want to make that relationship as strong and close to the brands as possible. And part of that is winning trust, not just by being reliable and serving good quality. That's all great. Good pricing is also very important, but what if you can just elevate that partnership to a different level where you're an advisor rather than somebody who's just doing what I want when I push a button or give a call? So I think that also is just a new business opportunity to change and add value to who you are as a company.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yeah. And and therein lies, you may not have all the answers, but if you're open to be flexible, to try things out, to experiment, to ultimately listen and have conversations on a different level, if you can, than pure transaction. Um there's huge growth potential there, isn't there?

Move From Supplier To Partner

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Exactly. I mean, let's be honest, nobody knows it all, right? Like you've been in the industry for for a very long time, so am I. And there are people that know a lot, but nobody knows everything. I know people that are the best in class for RFID or NFC or in serialized codes or um on platforms for business intelligence, but they're not necessarily printing uh experts. So nobody expects you to be the know-it-all Wikipedia of innovation. People really just want somebody who's honest. And yes, you might have a good topic to start, explain why the things you do enable all the other more relevant, more important, future-proof things. And that's a good start. Nobody expects you to go in and then explain first-party data gathering and servers and hyperscaling solution providers. That's not what we're asking for. I think it's really just kicking off conversations and changing the perception of yourself uh again from a supplier to a partner, and that's a good start. And that doesn't take much but passion and some freedom and time, resources to investigate and learn. And honestly, just look back when you started, Marcus. The amount of conferences and workshops, trade shows were not really that high. Like it was a very close community. And now with LinkedIn, YouTube, these podcasts, and all that stuff, there's so much knowledge where you just need to listen and read. And that gives you usually enough when you're a smart person to have a conversation with any brand.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, the access to information and knowledge and know-how and is is there. I mean, you know, FutureCrifts have had over 1.5 million engagements and views and so on in the past year, and people use that information to help them form buying decisions before they reach the point that they even speak to the supplier, and that's a significant change, or even 10 years ago. So it's it's continually changing. And one of the things, rewinding a bit to what you said as well, is that the same people employing the same people generationally, it's kind of like if you are to embark on a trying something new out, it's important to have a mix of people, isn't it? A diverse, more diversity, not not just culturally, but or uh but but actually in the way they think and their backgrounds and who they are and so on.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, because it doesn't work the other way. Again, I mean you can you can have the Sparta's engineers doing the job for 30, 40, 50 years, that's all great, but it's just not fair and quite frankly, not realistic for you to expect them to turn into innovation disruption people, right? So you need to have this this balance. And and when we talk about diversity, we're not talking about you know necessarily boys and girls and and mixed genders. We're talking about having a piece of everything that just enriches your culture. Again, referencing to probably one of the best experiences I had in my work life at Amazon is if you have a room full of people from different countries, completely diverse in the way they live and identify, and no, the power of having Italian, Turkish, French, Americans, Germans, Spanish people, Italian people in a room working on the same topic, coming up with a great solution, that's unbeatable. And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about, you know, the big tech companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook. People are like, oh yeah, you know, they have unlimited funding. No, they hire for culture, they hire the right kind of people that go in a room, uh, 10 people, 10 different countries, 10 different identities, whatever you want to call it. And the outcome is just impressive because there's a complete way of different working. The German is maybe very you know accurate and detailed, while um the Spanish might be more open minded, while the American is more visionary. So if you put that all in a room and you give people the Room to actually work together and contribute in a team, the outcome is always speed and innovation and disruption. I think that's where it needs to start to be. And I've been to some printers at some recent workshops, and they some of them had like the floor, the entry hall with all the pictures from their employees, which is great. And they all look the same. There was no diversity on any of the pictures. Hundreds of people. Which is fine. The company is successful, they're doing a terrific job. That's great. But it's hard for you to expect these people to be completely different. So you need to add, let's say, color and diversity to it. People that are just questioning the status quo without having to change the company's identity. Because let's be honest, that's not going to happen as well, because companies are successful, successful for a good reason and for a long time. So as you said, it's really just adding some sparks and rainbow sparkles to it and um just a little more flavor uh that helps you to get out of the box and and and be more disruptive in the way you think versus you know doing what you do or what you have been doing for the past 50 years.

Beyond Price: Differentiating In Tenders

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, and I and I guess it's the appetite for trying something new. It doesn't have to derail the the you know the business in any way, shape, or form, but it's about trying new things. And I guess it's sort of in a farming context, if you're a farmer and you have three fields, yeah, you don't don't risk all three, but have a have a go at maybe half of one and and see how that develops and nurture it. So mindset shift, open-minded, learning-oriented, different people, but great ideas can come from that. And then we if you have a great idea, then you have the chance to move forward. And and I guess as much as anything else, uh listening to you talking about perhaps some of the defining characteristics of what we would call good print, it's precision, it's on time, it's in, you know, it's a lot about containment. So it's understandable that the culture is oriented around that, but what this requires is a an experimental, kind of playful, creative um culture that would sit perhaps a bit outside that, but it given given the opportunity, I'm sure something special could happen. I really appreciate you sharing your opinions and thoughts and insights there, Gunnary, with brave episodes, and it's been fascinating to listen to you. And I'm I'm I'm sure we'll have you back at some time in the future. Any final thoughts from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Again, uh, as somebody who who started his first first steps in printing in, you know, I don't know how many hours I spent at a press, color adjustments, fingerprinting, and all that stuff, I think honestly, printing and packaging in general is one of the most exciting industries that people oftentimes not recognize, right? And um if you can just understand that the world is changing, and it certainly is, as we can see when you watch the news and just look outside, everything is changing and nothing's gonna stay the same. We didn't even talk about AI now, right? If you add that on designs and all that stuff, so that's a whole different layer. But if you just open up for new profiles and new people that you add to enrich your culture and give them the freedom, the resources to question things, that means that they can still go to your master engineers who have been doing this for 40 years and just give them new sparks, new ideas because they think out of the box. So I think um the packaging, printing, um, especially the inline uh coding industry right now has a tremendous chance to be part of a much, much bigger solution in regards to the new status quo. And um it doesn't require much but uh but a spark to start somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Absolutely. Well, listen, thanks for sharing many of your sparks there with me. And um thanks for having me. Looking forward to having you back in the future. So thanks very much.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Anytime. Thank you very much.