#337 - Beyond the Grey Box: Why Storytelling, Trust and Human Connection Matter More Than Ever in Print

In this episode of the FuturePrint Podcast, Marcus Timson speaks with Mark Stephenson about the launch of his new venture, The Spark Organisation, and why storytelling has become one of the most powerful differentiators in the print and technology industries.

Drawing on nearly three decades of experience at Fujifilm, Mark reflects on the shift from traditional corporate communications toward more human, intuitive and emotionally resonant storytelling. In a world filled with “another grey box”, technical specifications alone are rarely enough to inspire confidence, build trust or create lasting customer relationships.

The conversation explores why people remember how brands make them feel rather than simply what they say, and how authentic storytelling can help companies stand out in increasingly competitive and uncertain markets. Marcus and Mark discuss the importance of trust in B2B sales, the growing role of video and podcasts, the challenges of getting technical experts comfortable on camera, and why over-rehearsed corporate messaging often loses its emotional impact.

They also examine how lockdown accelerated digital communities across print, the role of organisations such as IPIA, and why content should ultimately serve the audience rather than internal stakeholders.

This episode is a thoughtful and often humorous discussion about communication, creativity, vulnerability, and the growing need for the print industry to connect through stories, not just specifications.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Return

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Future Print Podcast, celebrating print technology and the people behind it.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome to the latest episode of the Future Print Podcast. I'm happy to welcome back Mark Stevenson with a different focus perhaps around the discussion. Um Mark's uh launched a new brand called the Spark Organization. That's right. And welcome to the podcast, Mark.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Thanks, Marcus. Uh it's nice to come back because I am I'm a different person than I ever was. I mean, that's that's the theory. Or maybe I'm just the same with a different label. Actually, I think it's more that I'm the same guy with a different label.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Launches The Spark Organisation

SPEAKER_01 0:45

And and and a different um organization and a different mission, albeit perhaps some of the same. But before we get into the topic of this podcast, Mark, would you give us a a short intro as to your background and and how you reached the point of launching the Spark organization? Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Okay, so 27, actually it is 27 years ago, in May um 1999, I joined Fujifilm after doing various things, some print related, some not. Um and I would say during the final six or seven years, um moved from UK to Europe, not physically, but to work for the European organization, and got the opportunity to come up with ideas and execute them. I won't say without anyone noticing, uh, because there'd be little point in doing that, but I was given a lot of autonomy to be able to create content that I thought would help our basically our sales guys, when they got in front of a customer, if the customer says, I know Fuji from and I like them, then that that was my job to prepare the ground in that way. Um, because you know there's lots of quotes, but one of them is people won't remember what you say, they'll remember how you made them feel. And taking that sort of idea, I was given the um the mandate to be able to create a lot of content online or also scripts for presentations at exhibitions and whatever else that perhaps weren't the normal corporate style, um, and really enjoyed it. So when it came time to leave Fujifilm, that's when I thought I don't want to stop doing this. I want to continue doing this kind of content, and hopefully, other companies who appreciated what I did, or you know, some people came to me and said, I wish our organization would give some of our people that kind of free reign. Uh, on that basis, I thought, well, I'll start the Spark Organization, which is a very grand title for just one person, but uh it's it's irony, and a lot of a lot of what I do is quite ironic and self-deprecatory. Is that what I think it is? Um, because I think we do take ourselves too seriously sometimes. And in the end, if I can be a warm, friendly face that makes people think I'm comfortable, I'm not being sold to in an overt way. Um, I'm not just being reeled off a list of specs and whatever else, then maybe there's some value there. So it's um it's week four. I've just raised my first invoice 0001. So um that's a landmark, and looking forward to to some more bookings.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I've got a few lined up, so it's right, right. And so rewinding then, I like the point you make about people won't remember what you say, but they remember

Trust As The Real Buying Factor

SPEAKER_01 3:40

how you feel. And key to that is people, isn't it? Because we're a technology-focused industry, and we often communicate facts and function, and the narrative somewhat is uh lost in the mix, I suppose. It's really it's about people, isn't it? It's about people and how people feel and interpret. And storytelling, therefore, is a critical component of the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Yeah, I think I think sometimes we buy from we buy what we want despite the person who's selling it, you know, because it might be unique and it's a it's a happy place to be if you've got a product offering that is totally unique, but that's rarely the case. People will look at a in the print industry, especially another grey box and say, Yeah, they're all broadly similar, aren't they? Why would I buy from one rather than the other? And that quote is often attributed to Maya Angelou. Um, but apparently she nicked it from somebody else whose name I can't remember at the moment. But um it it all sticks with me. You know, we if if somebody's got a slide with 20 bullet points on it, um it you might want it there for reference, but you can't expect to go back to people a week later and say, Do you remember that slide that said this?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Because they won't. And I think increasingly the points that you're making there resonate more and more and more because you know, in in volatile times, um greater fear for for lowering investment or not investing, or or if you do need to invest, you have to feel confident and you have to relate to the people, and and I guess uh trust is a key component as well, is it?

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Absolutely, you have to you have to trust the person that they're gonna follow through on everything they say. You rarely buy something that doesn't need some support, an awful lot of products I won't say are really still in the beta stage when they get shipped, but you can't possibly test for every possible use of something. And so when it devices go out into the field, you're going to get variables that you hadn't thought of. And early adopters should be absolutely 100% eyes open to what they're taking on, and then if they are, they need to think, well, who's going to be holding my hand while this happens? And and do I do I have a relationship or not? I had this discussion with Warren Werbitt on on his podcast, and every five or ten minutes I got a chance to get a word in edgeways. Um, but he was very skeptical of people selling equipment that they were just just out for your money. But it's the story's somewhere in between. Obviously, everyone's got to survive.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

But yeah, well, I guess I guess there's an economic point to you have a product, you want to sell it, and there are certain ways of selling it.

Content That Serves The Viewer

SPEAKER_01 6:38

But I kind of feel that with storytelling, you need to understand the what buyers are feeling and what they're looking for, and what and what problems they have and what challenges they have, right? And develop a develop a story that is authentic, yeah, uh but resonates.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

I was talking to a potential customer yesterday who wants to um communicate more about their business and their products, and I said, if I if we agree to do something together and I make a video, for example, I won't be making it to keep you happy. Even though you're paying me to make it, I'm gonna make it to make the person who's viewing it feel like it's it's got value, it's got something in there. And I think the problem is you get this situation when if you're creating content and you're getting paid for it, you think, well, the board of directors or the marketing team in this company want to see X, Y, and Z, they want to hear me say the history of the company, the breadth of the product range, and by that time, sorry, audience is gone. You know, and sometimes you just need to say right up front, if you watch this, you'll get this. This is the payoff. Now, let's tell the story.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, and I think that's an easy trap to fall into, isn't it? Going down the logical path. Yeah. Because all of those mic little decisions, like you said, pleasing the the board, pleasing the internal stakeholders, and all of those things, they're not invalid. No, they're all very logical. But I kind of think storytelling shouldn't just be logical, should it? No, no, it should be intuition.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

And I I was talking to um I've been working with Chris Jordan, uh, who we both know. And Chris is great because he's he's helping me through setting up Spark and and the sort of things I hadn't thought about. Um, and we we talk regularly. Um and you know, it he he comes up with a lot of very, very useful things to say, and and that's one of them. You know, you've you've got to have a strategy and a plan. And I said to him, up until now, I haven't had a strategy, I've just used my intuition. Um, and that's my that's the way I work. But obviously, when you when you're held accountable and you have to be, then yeah, I'm gonna have to employ that side of my brain a little bit more than just thinking, I like it, like the idea of that, I think it will work. Um, you can get away with it most of the time, but yeah, you you've got to do some some planning, you've got to have a story arc, you've got to have, you know, you know where you're going. Um, and uh in some cases I've walked into customers of Fujifilm, um, not with the chance because there's they're busy. Um, and you sometimes don't get the chance to talk to them, and you just land on their doorstep, you get your camera out, and you start to talk. And then the conversation goes in a direction you didn't know it was going to go, and then you edit later, and you take all the irrelevant stuff and you stitch it together with some some b-roll, some you know, activity in the background that's going on while people are talking. And I guess it's the same, you know, when you're doing a podcast, you start off with a plan and then you

Planning Versus Intuition In Stories

SPEAKER_03 9:56

end up going veering off in various directions.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, you can do, and it and like you say, have having a plan and a script and and um and narrative and like you say, the process of creating, you'll discover other things. So having a plan that's malleable enough to capture the the gems that come out that you didn't expect, or the serendipity, or or or actually the insights that perhaps no one has said before because we all thought we were this kind of this was our story. Exactly. The story can take on a different form in life, can't it? When you yeah, everybody's got a story.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

No matter how dull they are, it's not there may be I'm sorry, but uh I'm not making that judgment when I meet people, honest. Um someone may appear dull because they don't know how to communicate that story, they don't know how to bring it out. And you know, one of the things I find works well if I'm interviewing somebody and it's on camera, the last thing I want to do with some people is just leave them like a rabbit in the headlight, staring down the lens. I'll I'll sit next to them and we'll have a conversation. The conversate the the camera is just eavesdropping on our conversation, and we're just talking to each other. Um, and you know, that that the the being prepared to do that and put yourself in the spotlight as well can help somebody through who's who's reticent.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, and and and prepare to be feel vulnerable. But I think like you say, it's something about cameras, isn't it, that that some some people do find quite frightening. Like they can get up and speak and everything's great at an event, and there's 30, 50, 100 people there. Put a camera in front of them, and it's a different dynamic, isn't it? It's a strange thing, but it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

It is. There's a the there was a guy at Fujifilm who was a David Bowie tribute act. He called himself the thin white duke, looked a bit like him. I never actually got to see him perform, but he he toured the circuit in his spare time in the evenings at pubs and clubs doing the thin white duke, and from people who who I heard went to see him said he was fantastic. And so we were at an exhibition, we had a piece of kit I wanted to introduce, and I said to him, Dave, can you talk to us about this bit of kit? I'll get the camera. Oh, I can't do that. He said, definitely can't do that. I said, Well, you stand up in front of a crowded room and you sing, which I could never do, you sing, you you you sound like David Bowie. What's the issue? He said, It would be like singing a song and not knowing the words. That that was the barrier for him. But we did it anyway, and I got on camera with him, and after a while I couldn't shut him up. So it was just getting over that hurdle, just having a go because you know it wasn't a live situation. I said to him, Look, if if we muck anything up, we'll just stop and do it again. And that's the that's the beauty of of you know, when it's when it's not like uh a live webinar, they're they're the real challenge.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, they're webinars, they're they're hard work. There can be a sometimes it's the tech stress that's the worst thing. It's the worst thing, yeah. Yeah, and multitasking if you're hosting is quite difficult

Helping Shy Experts On Camera

SPEAKER_01 13:08

sometimes. But yeah, but yeah, it's getting people to be the best versions of themselves in a way.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah. Or or a version of themselves they didn't know was there. You know, some people can come to life when you when you talk to them and you you find out what it is that really makes them interested, really makes them excited about something.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

And then you start to pull out those stories. Yeah, and that's a key component, I think, is enthusiasm and excitement for the product. And if you're over-rehearsed, over-planned, over-logical, yeah, i it comes across fluent, but it loses that natural effervescence that actually that excites the person watching, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Do you do you really believe what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Or are you are you worst case speaking somebody else's words? Um I've never been in that situation where I've had to present somebody else's presentation, thank goodness. Um, I don't know. I don't think it would end up being that presentation if I even if I started.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

No, it would end up taking it somewhere else. It wouldn't, and that's the reassuring thing. We're so individual, aren't we? There are we all we all are behave, motivated, everything else differently. I guess with B2B storytelling, it's about the individual to some extent, but it's understanding the DNA of the business as well, bringing that to life, or the culture, and uh so it's it's it spent it takes a bit of time to get that right as well, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Yes, it it it can do, and it depends on uh and again if you're if you're working with somebody, how much time have they got to invest in developing that story? Um, and you know, in my case, are they prepared to spend a day workshopping where who we're talking to, why we're talking to them, what value we've got for for the audience? Um, and and how how do you want to be seen as a company? How do you want to be seen? Are you are you unique? Have you got any unique values? Or are we just working on that that premise of we're we're a friendly bunch, we're approachable. You know, worst case, everybody should be able to tell that story. We're a friendly bunch, we're approachable, and you can trust us. Um, because if it's just a list of capabilities, then it immediately then becomes a box-ticking exercise, and the spreadsheets come out, and then you're you know, you're in the the race to the bottom. Yeah, and nobody wants that.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

No, and I think I think the um the point you made earlier, following on in this theme, really, is that um in in a world that is highly competitive and at times difficult to distinguish between the benefit of one product against another. I really like the point you make about it storytelling actually is a differentiation technique as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's the thing again, it's that that feeling. What feeling do I get from this person? If they've got an engaging manner or there's something engaging about what they say, if it's a s if it's a story and you want to know the end, yeah. Even if you think you know what the end is, if if you're in invested enough to want to stick to the end. I I've um recently got a YouTube premium

Keeping Attention With Real Metrics

SPEAKER_03 16:36

subscription. Um I'm watching a lot more YouTube than I ever did because when the adverts aren't there, it's surprising how much more of a pleasant experience it is. And there's one guy on there with a massive following, he talks about um fitness technology like Garmin watches and things like this. And at the beginning of each one, instead of the usual trope, which is like and subscribe, he says, the only thing YouTube cares about is you watch this to the end. That is the only thing that will affect my rankings and whether you see my next video at the top of your feed or whether it never appears at all. And I thought, what a great analogy for getting your story across. You know, you want people to stay till the end. Um, and yeah, you do get these analytics back from YouTube and from LinkedIn. You know, how many people watched your video and how many seconds did they watch on average? And the um the average is surprisingly low. Is it what kind of number is it average then? Um it I mean, I I put a video up yesterday that was uh it was a print island one. Um, I think it was about eight minutes. Um, and first two hours on LinkedIn are crucial. If you get people liking and commenting in the first two hours, you've got more chance of it popping up the top. Um, and in that first two hours, I think there were, I don't know, maybe a few hundred had been ticked off as having seen it. They might just roll by. Um, but the average watch time was in the seconds, not the minutes. So, you know, it doesn't it doesn't stop everybody in their tracks. And even if they turn the sound on, I don't know when if you can measure that, I don't think you can, if they turn the sound on or not. Um, some people might look at it for a few seconds and then think, or come back to that and watch it later. You know, if it's eight minutes worth, you probably haven't got the discretionary time to just sit and watch the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah. So but e and that's sharing via YouTube, so I guess you have a more promiscuous community there that are kind of looking at various different things, but but equally, um I assume that video will be used to people that are subscribers and are keener the ones that want to the value of that metric is interesting, but equally this the video will be a fantastic follow-up technique. I didn't even know what the video or the film was, but that is a reference point, it's something to look back to. So yeah, so so I guess it's uh a funnel, isn't it, in a way.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, I've I've I've made a YouTube channel of all the work I've done over the past five or six years and put it all on a channel, the Spark organization. You can search for it. But it's not there to attract eyeballs, it's not there to make people subscribe and to monetize. There's no no I don't know anyone in the print industry who's managed to monetize a channel on YouTube. I don't think they it's got the volume. Um, but it's there as a reference. So if someone says, I'm thinking of doing a video about X or promoting this event or whatever, I can say, Oh, look on my channel, there's a video there, I'll send you a link. There's a video there where I did something similar in 2010 or whatever it might have been. So, you

Building Communities In Print

SPEAKER_03 19:54

know, it's there for a reference, and that's that's the it's sort of like a resource to help me to help me sign people up to to my services. So and what I did realise from all of those videos is it's rarely me imparting great knowledge, it's usually me talking with somebody who's got great knowledge and talking together to develop whatever the story is. Um because I my value is not um great advice how to how how you should run your business, how to make a million pounds, how to grow your company. This is the first company I've ever run. But what I what I can do is find the people who've got interesting stories and help them to tell them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Whether they want to or not. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's but I think increasingly it's um it required the the the world's changed. We we need to sort of look at how we communicate and how we can improve and enhance and reach people and inspire them in essence, and uh and uh so I think it's an exciting um you know business that you've got started there because I think it it's like you say it's designed for you because you've designed it, but equally it's uh I think a growing space, I think a growing awareness about storytelling. Um, because we had lapsed, I think, probably up to the 90s, noughties into um eve even pre-COVID to an extent of just being an industry that focuses a bit too much on facts and figures and not enough on inspiring content. So I think it's really exciting, and you've you've also been very involved over the years in um associations and you're sort of committed to that. And community is a key thing for you, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah, um, I mean, I it all started in in lockdown. I was a um a product manager. I just moved into working in Europe because we're going back. Five years, aren't we? Five or six years. Six. Yes. Um, and it was that time when nobody could go out anywhere. Um, I hadn't been visiting lots of customers. I've been working on product management and spreadsheets and forecasts and all that kind of thing. Um, but when lockdown came, obviously we couldn't go to our meetings wherever they were. A lot of people couldn't go out. They had discretionary time, and one thing was the crown pup, which I know you popped into occasionally as well, I think. Um and it was at that point we also started at Fujifilm some webinars. So we thought people can't come to see the kit, we'll show them the kit, uh, via a series of webinars. And rather than just say, here's a machine, the paper goes in here and it gets eaten up and then it comes out the other end. We told stories. So we said, okay, we've got a product we want to make. Who's going to help us make this product? If we print it here, and then we send it over to Israel to get laser die cut. And we before that we sent it to Germany to get coated. Um, what kind of products can we make? And we got all these people live into the into the webinar, and we told the journey of this palette of paper into making some postcards and an envelope, a cardboard envelope to go around them. Um, and so we started doing more of those. And of course, people then, even though you're making it for, say, a European audience, people are watching from all around the world. They're in the same situation. We have people from South, South America, South Africa, other countries at god ungodly hours for them, um, watching our content. And that's where I started to build relationships with people without the intention of ever doing it. But you just start to talk to people and they're interesting, and you say, hey, let's let's have a conversation about this and let's record it, or or whatever. Um, and at that same time, I got the opportunity to get involved in the IPIA, Independent Print Industries Association, um, became a council member, and then was um elected very grandly sounds. I was the only person who applied, elected for um being vice chair, which is a two-year tenure. Um, and so I was nobody else um who volunteered, so I got the job, um, which is uh it's an honorary position, it's not a not a paid one. Um so that two years will be up at the end of this year, then I'll be chair for two years, then I'll be president for two years because that's the cycle, and someone else will start coming in as an apprentice like I am now. Um, so my future's mapped out until I'm 70 years old. Yeah, yeah. So and so that's a great backbone towards what we what you know what I'm trying to do in picking up work along the ray as well, uh. Um, but my you know, my key commitment for the next couple of years after Christmas is going to be as chair of the IPIA. Um, and that, yeah, that's um the the momentum of the IPIA at the moment is fantastic. We've got enjoyable time.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I agree. I think they're a really uh dynamic, strong, um, committed association. Also during lockdown, they were the and still do, don't they? The Big Breakfast, which is an online networking and um always sort of adopting new the new things and so on, really sort of proactive and yeah, inspiring um organizations. So, yeah, it's great. Well done. You be the chair.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

I'm also also working with um the online print coach, Colin Sinclair McDermott. Um, I'm getting involved in his community, um, and I've been hosting some sessions in the in the print mastermind universe as well, which is another group of um of people in print. So it's um and it's uh you think you know everyone and you realize I don't even know half of them.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, I look I looked the other day um as I do but occasionally, but just just curious,

Storytelling As A Sales Capability

SPEAKER_01 26:03

I I've put print print industry in LinkedIn and I think it came up with over four or five million content. Now obviously the accuracy of that questionable, but yeah, but still, I mean it it's huge. And you we're just talking on the one hand commercial print, but you're wide format, textile, labels, packaging, packaging, industrial. It's enormous.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I realized that when I when I in the past year at Fujifilm, I joined the the the packaging team um as well as my inkjet promotional duties, um, and had to learn about labels and flexo and and that world. And it's a yeah, it's a it's a different group of people who work in a very different way. Um equally fascinating, um, and possibly more innovative than in commercial print. That's that's another topic.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah, yeah, and I certainly think the uh demands on packaging is considerable, isn't it? And um the different substrates, the difficulty put certainly for digital print over the you know, particularly if you think flexible. Yes, but I'm at an event next week, Metpack, beverage can printing is evolution tools digital in there, and and that's largely because the the sector, that specific sector, beverage cans, is is being say disrupted, but it has to some extent by you know social media influencers, new functional drink brands. So suddenly digital's perfect for that. But anyway, it's just interesting how different industries adopt at different times and growth. Any sort of final thoughts, Mark, with the whole kind of storytelling piece before we sign off?

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Um I guess the uh uh the conclusion for me is storytelling is an intuitive thing. You can't use formulas, they don't work. You know, you might if you if you write novels and you write them to a formula, then yeah, maybe maybe you can, but for me, storytelling is is about how how a story feels, what it makes you feel, um, and that is not quantifiable. And the the results you'll get from storytelling as again aren't necessarily measurable. I think maybe that was my my downfall at Fujifilm in that when you looked at a spreadsheet of who who brought in what revenue, then mine was who knows? Who knows what it is. Um, but I know that it works from the reactions I get from people, the um the people who said, I'm so glad you made that bit of content or whatever, because that really helped me to get through that door or to have that conversation or even close that deal. Um, and it's not just storytelling, it's not just talking to a camera on video, it's storytelling is when you're in front of anyone, it's an individual to a salesperson or a consultant sitting down one-to-one with uh with their customer or client or prospect. Storytelling is is got to be a key part of that, and I think we need to arm our sales teams with good storytelling tools as well. And this is another thing. I was talking to somebody who wants to improve the integrity and the professionalism of OEM salespeople, and they've got a real burning desire to bring up the standard of people who may have this, oh, you're just a photocopy of a salesman label to get them to be able to communicate more effectively and think of the customer and what they need and they're fulfilling their, you know, not just their tick list, but what they want out of a relationship. Um, that's a bigger subject. We're not gonna get into that today, but um, she's looking for somebody to partner with to be able to fund a whole educational program on that side, and I find that very interesting. Um I've not finished we're not finished talking yet, but I think that that is you know, it's one of the offshoots. There's no point in us as storytellers making people feel comfortable if the organization doesn't actually really back them up and be their partner. It's got to go right through the whole organization. So the storytelling bit is just just the beginning. There's far more to it than that.

Final Takeaways And Where To Find Spark

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Really um pleased you you've got started and sent your first invoice in the Spark organization. The website is Rough. Um The Spark.website.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Brilliant. Not the not the normal.com or dot co.uk. They're all gone. They're all gone.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

So the Spark. Fantastic. Well, listen, thanks so much for joining us, Mark. All the very best in your um new new organization. Thank you. Nice to be back telling a different story. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, you can subscribe now for more great audio content coming up. And visit futureprint.tech for the latest news, partner interviews, in depth industry research, and to catch up on content from future print events. We'll see you next time on the Future Print podcast.