Running Buddies featuring Nick Meraz

On today's show we are running with So Cal favourite ultra runner, business owner (Ostrich Running) and podcast host Nick Meraz. After establishing that fact that his weather is better than where I live, we dive into an in depth conversation that took us through a wide spectrum of topics. We talk about his personal journey of finding sobriety and mental resilience through distance running after serving in the military. We talk about his - and my -  "run scared" philosophy, which encourages athletes to find growth through discomfort and intimidating challenges. We then shift gears and get into Nicks world as an entrepreneur where he discusses the authenticity of the running community and his desire to provide better financial support for non-elite athletes. We talk professionalization of Trail and ultra running and discuss who holds the power currently and in the future in the sport of running. We finish off with our "Running Scared" question, where Nick describes the scenic but occasionally eerie trail systems of Orange County, emphasizing how patience and service to others help runners overcome physical and mental exhaustion.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

You're listening to Running Buddies brought to you by Running Scared Me. I'm Jamie Roberts, and this is a podcast we like to call a job cat. Whether it's your first 5K or your next 50 for Running Buddies find stories that are bigger than running. And we have found a great story today. We are gonna have on the show Nick Maraz, who is a runner, he is a businessman from Southern California. I I wouldn't even say, you know, encroaching on friendship with this gentleman. Um Kindred Spirits. His tagline is run scared, and uh that's very similar to what we've been doing over here with the idea of running scared, uh finding fear, finding something deep within to propel you on your running journey. So we're gonna have him on in a minute. So uh really, really uh excited to have a conversation. Um so that will be very cool. Uh what's also cool is subscribing to the podcast is free. Uh that is one reason. Second reason is uh we have a bunch of uh I think really great stuff lined up for listeners, not just the content, but uh giveaways and some really cool partnerships that we're doing. So make sure you subscribe to the podcast because that is one uh of a few different ways to hear about new things that are happening. Another way to find out information is to go to the website, which is running scaredmedia.com. And yet another way to find out information is to go to running scared media on Instagram. That's a really good place to uh find everything uh that we are doing. Um please take a listen to our other podcasts. We've got Soul Sisters and we've got uh Hybrid Horizons, which is looking at all things functional fitness. Uh uh so those are out there, those are coming on the feed episodes weekly. Let's just kind of get through this and let's just get right to the episode. It's a long one, it's a good one. Let's go to uh the OC Orange County have our conversation with Nick Mraz. On today's show, we're extremely thrilled to be running with Nick Miraz, a runner, a businessman, who with his company Ostrich Running is bringing positivity, enthusiasm, and a philosophy of run scared to the running landscape. Welcome to the show, Nick.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yes, thank you so much for having me. You actually you crushed the name. Look at that. You said the last name just like a natural, and uh I'm so excited to be part of this uh this show and uh this running scared philosophy. Yeah, man, I can't wait to get into it.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Awesome, man. Well we share that. We share that, right? Like running scared. We'll kind of get into what kind of brought us together, I think, a little bit later on. But we're we're really happy to have you and and and to learn about all the amazing things you're doing. But the the one thing we need to learn first is is where are you, man? We start with kind of like a quick hit in terms of um what you're doing, where you're running, uh, what's going on with that run. So where are you right now?

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah, let's get these rapid fire. I am uh in beautiful Southern California, Orange County, California, to be exact mission viejo, uh to take it one step further physically on a bike path. On this path will lead you all the way down to the beach if you take it all the way to the end.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Oh man, that sounds terrible.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

It's worse. It's like, why am I even here? You know, that could be doing something else, right? Than being in the sunshine with shorts and a shirt on. Uh this is heaven.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

You know, we're uh you know, we're coming to you from Canada and like we just don't have that weather, so one of my favorite things is I just like I'll just go look on a map and I'll just go look at I'll just go look at where like nice weather is and all the runners down in the southwest. And I looked at I looked at Orange County. So you're you're right next to LA County, but it looks like Orange County is pretty big. Are you like more kind of Anaheim or are you more down by the coast? Like like whereabouts are are you in that area?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, so I'm south of Anaheim, just uh inland from Laguna Beach. If I take one main road, I could run that all the way to Laguna Beach. Um, so you know, South Orange County always gets a little bit 10 degrees since we're kind of closer to the coast. You get that nice ocean breeze when you're running the trails and you look down and you see the ocean, you get a nice uh marine layer uh building up, and it's just such great views, and just uh I'm super spoiled, man. And and I came from a desert. I grew up in a desert, so I uh appreciate every single day that I wake up and I get to run in uh this beautiful scenery, beautiful weather. It's uh it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

You know, that's so that's so important that you acknowledge that because we've talked to you know professional runners and snowboarders and and especially just conversation I just had about um with one gentleman and he's like, I I understand I'm not living the life of everybody, right? Like he acknowledges that and just kind of I respect that, you know, honoring what you do, but acknowledging the fact that not everybody is you know a block down from Laguna Beach. But I'm wondering what um how long was the run today? I I know it sounds like kind of you're in the middle of it, but what were you getting after today?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yeah, so I wanted to keep this true, right? This had jaw cast, and I knew I was gonna put a run up, I was gonna do this right. Um, but I had uh a long threshold workout done today, or on the books today. So uh it was uh two times that 20 minutes threshold. Um and with the warm-up and cool down, I ended up uh knocking out a little over 10 miles, and now we're just cruising. We're cruising down this path, uh, which is in the opposite direction of where I ran the path earlier. So uh it was uh a hard workout. That's why I wanted to get it done before because you would have not heard me talk, and it would have just been a whole lot of gasping for air because I am not an elite runner.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

We yeah, no, no, no, nor am I. But we we like our we like our uh guest to be in a nice solid zone too, just so that we can hear a little bit of br a little bit of breathing in the background. Sounds like you're doing something, so there's an actual draw cast taking place, but still that you can get the answers out. But you know, I you really kind of uh painted a picture, and I you know, we uh many uh podcasts have gone to like you know the split screen video, and that's cool. But we we believe in audio, we are audio, so I I really like that that you kind of um you gave us a mental picture of what you know what you're looking at and what we're thinking about. But can you get tell us something really interesting about the space you're in? And then as an add-on, if you're down in your area, is there one spot that you just need to run? Like I understand running along the coast and the boardwalk would be at, but is there like a great trail that if someone is down in uh OC that they need to they really need to do and take their time?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, definitely. So currently I am looking at a nice bike path. I just went under the freeway, the five freeway, and uh you know there's a little creek with a lot of greenery on the left, and this this will take me all the way to the beach if I wanted to, and it's actually a really great paved bike path. Um, I normally don't run this direction, I normally run the opposite, which takes me up to um this very famous biker bar. Um and like biker bar, like sons of anarchy kind of biker bar, right? Not a whole bunch of uh triathletes at a bar, not a San Francisco biker bar, if that makes sense. Um you know, uh, and that one's called Cook's Corner, um, and that'll take you up all the way through, and that's a great view too, because you can kind of run this nice little elevation on a paved path, and it's just a beautiful view. Um for somebody who's here in Orange County, you got it all, to be honest. If you want to be a roadrun and you want to find someplace with great views for the paved course, Newport Beach, Back Bay Harbor, is incredible. Just a nice little course looped around. You're right there, you can see Newport Beach, you feel the cool air, uh kind of taste the salty air as you're running, depending on what time you uh you come in. So that's a cool spot. But the uh the trail running community out here is um kind of secretive, but it's it's really gaining popularity. Um and the course that I normally run is uh a place called Black Star Canyon, and how it was introduced to me was I was doing a race over there and it was before Arab Apia took it over, but it's called Das No Moon. And uh it's a it's a pretty crazy climb in the beginning. Um, but I was watching all these elite runners, Jake Jackson, a couple others out there, just crushing this uphill, and I was just amazed at their climbing capabilities, sustaining the pace, going up a mountain, and I knew that if I could ever figure out how to run that course, I made some significant improvements on my aerobic base, uh my health, my my ability to run. So that trail was right in my backyard, and I can run from the bottom up to the top through the mountains up there, or like the uh kind of like the ridge, and uh see the ocean on one side, the inland empire on the left side, and um I can easily get 22 miles self-supported on that and just crush the uh the downhill on the way back, and it's it's amazing. It's uh there's also a little section in there that has kind of like a historical site, and I can't recall off the top of my head, but there is uh an Indian tribe that used to reside there, and you can see remnants of you know where they used to prepare meals. Uh, there's a lot of erosion in the rocks where they would just make their cornmeal, and it's a very beautiful little spot hidden in there. Um and there's also some uh mountain lions, and it feels like it is the perfect spot to run scared for me. Literally.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Dude, that's an incredible answer, man. I'm writing down all these notes. I just want to pick up on like a couple of things. First off, the last thing you talked about, like the indigenous community there. My wife has done a lot of work, she's an educator as well. So that would be something that I'm gonna just pass on to her because just out of just interest, I think she she just wants to check that out. I want to jump over to you talked about the trail community being a little bit secretive. To me, this is like a little bit of um like a black box. In California, you think you know it's like Hollywood and the rich, you know, rich and famous, and it's a like maybe this plastic culture, but or is it this chill, is it is it the antithesis to that? Like is it this chill environment where everybody's kind of laid back? Like does that how does that manifest itself in like in the running community, in the trail running community? Like you said, secretive. Is it is is like is it like a club that you gotta know someone to get in, or is it just they you know it's secretive because it's small? Or is it is it secretive because like what really how does the I guess what I'm asking is for those that are not from California and the allure of the place, how does the running community kind of mirror just the culture in general?

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, uh great question. So definitely not secretive in the sense that it is uh gate kept. It is secretive in the sense that there's so many things you can do out here, right? If you just happen to stumble upon a trail running community, then you've like realized that oh my gosh, there's this whole world that lives here because you have mountain bikers, you have cyclists, you have runners, swimmers, baseball players, pickup game leagues, um, you have people who are avid enthusiasts of going to Disneyland every weekend, right? Crazy. Yeah, there's this culture, subcultures everywhere, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh just a whole lot. So it's not necessarily gate kept, um, like to keep it pure. It's not like localism and surfing where hey, you're not from this area, why are you taking this wave? Uh kind of thing. Because there are definitely sports where I feel like that that does happen, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

But um when you kind of explore and you find this trail running community and you tr and you find these these paths that are right in your backyard, um you start opening up the whole world of Southern California trail running, and you're welcome with open arms. People are loving to share their knowledge, loving to share different routes, different paths. I'm still I'm pretty fresh into my trail running, we'll call it career, and then this is and I'm doing air quotes right now. Uh, but uh I'm still finding new new paths, new trails. Um, and I've been running it for about five years now, and it's just amazing, man. I I think it's a a very cool uh community that's welcoming, that's all for people improving and and challenging their mind and their body. Um and there's just great courses out here. Um you and the reason why I say it's secretive is because we look to the Colorado, the Flagstaffs, the Arizonas, right? These very monstrous training grounds for elites. This is such a cool recreational, beautiful spot. Um I think Max Jolith had a little segment that he did with an Arab Apia documentary, and he he uh he talked about it there and he nailed it, right? It's just there and beautiful, and if you are a part of it, you can do some really cool things and challenge yourself to some really cool um feats that you didn't realize were you were capable of doing because it's right here in your backyard.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, you know, you you like another thing that's it's in your backyard, my backyard, and you mentioned this too in in your comments, is like this is not a groundbreaking comment in any way, but uh when I run with people, I find running uphill is such a game changer. Is it are we not training enough on ascent training, or is it is it is there not enough there? Because I run with a group, I run by myself, I sometimes run just with a with a partner, and I find that's the one that's the one area where I'm like shedding people like crazy, is just when we when we blast in some stairs or we're going on like some repeat climbs or just a long climb. Not really a question, but just more, I don't know, do you find that? Is this is that just do people not like practicing that? Is that maybe what a card is?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah, you know, there's there's a really good approach to there's there's there's two approaches, I think, and and I'm talking about this in an ultra running sense. There's two approaches to a trail run and um and an ultra marathon. Do you want to finish? Do you want to finish just barely under a cutoff? Do you want to finish at a certain time? Do you want to try and race other people, right? Those those are all different approaches to an ultra marathon, and how you approach that course uh depends on what your goals are. All of them are great goals, they all complete the same distance. One is a little bit more time on feet than the other, the other is a little bit more VO2 max lung capacity and clearing a lactic threshold, right? Uh lactic acid out of your muscles. So if you're looking to just finish, right, which is still commendable and respectable in my eyes, um, there is a run-walk method. And you walk those uphills and you save those legs, right? But at some point, if you decide to make the jump into being faster, being faster for yourself, achieving a certain goal, you're gonna eventually have to learn how to run those uphills or jog them in a certain capacity, right? Um and when you start training that, it unlocks a whole nother beast uh in your body. And it is another challenge, but when you find your way to maintain a set pace up a up a hill, up a climb, man, there's no other better feeling than being amped. And it's I found that ampedness like on that trail at Black Star Canyon because for many months, almost a year, I couldn't even make it to the top. My goal was I'm gonna run this entire way from the bottom to the top, which is which is about eight miles of a steady climb. Couple couple descents in there, but then you're climbing up again. Uh so for eight miles you're steadily climbing, right? And I always just said if I can run nonstop from the bottom to the top, I know I've improved my myself uh vastly, right? And uh after a while you just practice and you put in the work. A lot of times it sucks, but uh once you make it to the top and you start achieving your goal, it's just unlock something else that you're capable of. Um, and then downhills is a whole nother beast. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

But yeah, no, no, where I'm at, I'm just lucky enough. I live uh by the Niagara Escarpment. It's like this ridge that kind of rings around the province and it's you know five, six hundred feet, but it's it's sheer, and there's stairs and there's trails that just go up and down it, up and down it. So if you if you're ever in my neck of the woods, the Bruce Trail is a very famous one, and it's just got great, great uphills. And I'm lucky enough, I'm literally two minutes away, so I can just be training on those trails, and and it's it's really kind of steep, single track. It's fun, it's good. I just find it's it's hard for people. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

And you know what? We have no excuse, especially when it's in our backyard like that. Yeah, exactly. That's why I also run that that course. So like, yeah, I um I have no excuse being there's an Arab API race that's here, so I might as well be very good at it. It is a home course, and you kind of have to defend it with your own honor, right? Like uh, I have no reason not to be here. Um, and then there's another great uh trail. There's actually two others, Onea Park, uh, which KH Races does a 50k there, which I'm running uh in May, and then there's another trail, widing ranch, and there's a KH Races there that does widing ranch trail races. Um I think there's a couple local Orange County legends who uh recently last year posted a video of an encounter with a mountain lion on there, and I think it made the news and stuff, but uh it's a beautiful, beautiful course. You get a climb, you get speed, you get green shade, overhang, creek running, all of that right there in this like you know, 13, 20, 20 mile loop. You can easily like find enough uh paths just to make that run 20 miles, and it's uh probably in like an eight eight square mile radius uh box, but it's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, it's you have so many races out there. Like we've got you know, we've got Sulphur Springs and we've got five peaks that does races across the country, trail races, different, you know, but we don't really have like the just the number of of races that are out, like you said, in those big elite training grounds, California, just the topography kind of lends itself to that. But um, I I want to kind of just shift gears a little bit, and you know, talking to you someone who's knowledgeable, someone who's racing, someone who clearly loves running. Like, take us back to the beginning of the story. Like, why did you start to run? How did this all begin for you?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

As we go back to the beginning, right? Um, yeah, um my story in running doesn't go back that far. Um yeah, so in 2021 is when I actually picked up my first pair of running shoes and decided I was going to um run a certain distance, and that distance was the marathon distance, right? Um the reason why I needed something was at that point in my life I had uh recently uh picked up the life of sobriety. Um for many years I struggled with uh drug and alcohol abuse uh as a result of my PTSD from my military service. Um and I never really addressed it, you know, uh younger it's kind of like idolized at some point and especially where I was living at in Los Angeles in the film industry it almost caters to a lifestyle um that enables you know drug and alcohol use and um nobody really bats an eye um and I for many years I kind of suffered and it wasn't until my son was born that I knew I I kind of needed a change and I would I'd like to say that I made the change when he was born but unfortunately addiction uh doesn't work that way right I I uh for almost uh six more months eight more months after he was born I was still struggling pretty heavily um and we found out we were having a second baby very soon after so we're we have what they're called uh Irish twins right back to back and and uh I was like oh my gosh here we go this is insane we are doing this right um and I knew that I just I needed to end uh a cycle of uh alcohol and drug abuse and I didn't want my my son to see his father like kind of how I grew up too right it was just the cycle and um so I I went and I I got sober and I came to Orange County but it almost feels like you're not making any progress when you start early on in sobriety they always say a day at a time you know to get a day at a time to stack up your days but it's hard right uh to see you know any progress when you feel like you've been it's been an eternity right I must have not done you know anything in in years and like yeah it's been 10 days so you know I needed something to distract me while I did these meetings while I went through um this whole life rewire right and running to me I never liked it to be honest it was hard um but I knew that if I could get out there and do something every day that I didn't like the rest of the day would be easier um the the meetings the uh acts of service that I would do to to change my life would would become easier to handle right and it also gave me a goal that was attainable that I could actually measure progress. When you're starting out this new life of sobriety forever is hard to measure right because I'm still never not uh an alcoholic addict right I will always be in recovery so it's very difficult to measure that the end goal right if it's the finish line is always moving right always improving so I needed something and at that time I had just signed back up for school uh to go back to school I used my military benefits to allow me to go back to school because I knew I was going to need to do something especially with a kid on the way a second kid on the way um I had kind of capped out where I was in the in the film industry so that was going to be at least four years I had no end in sight for being sober I needed something that I could train to like an a physical finish line that I could cross and that marathon was that that uh actual finish line and um during that time it it was uh it was a grind man I I was struggling at a mile and a half um and then I'd made those rookie mistakes of just putting too many miles on the feet way too fast injury never like trying to figure out how to get past the wall uh of bonking figure out fueling I had nobody showing me anything I was just out there figuring this stuff all out on my own um and I still had like a lot of like self-conscious uh ideas running in my head rolling around in my head so even before I completed my first marathon which was the OC marathon I was uh worried if if I could even do it so the weekend before I actually ran the first official marathon I went to the Back Bay Harbor in Newport and ran my own marathon on my own just to make sure I could do the distance and I was like okay I did it okay I can go ahead and do it and a week later I ran another marathon which uh surprise I blew up on that marathon and uh it was the worst thing in my life and took me like five and a half hours to finish but uh I did it and uh kind of never looked back.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

I gotta say man king like that's that's an amazing story congratulations on sobriety it's not hard I I have someone close in my life that uh is still struggling and has never been able to you used a great word like kind of rewire I always say he's not been able to kind of unlock what he needs to do um in order to in order to to move forward I I'm wondering you know you really did a nice job of explaining kind of how you did it acts a service I'm sure a support group around you making choices to go back to school how has your mental approach changed not just to running but just to life I know um you know runners in the Ultra community a lot have gone through trauma some some not but some have is there something specifically with running that um really channels something at the core into something positive is it a wholesale mental change and running just ends up being the activity is really what is it with running and your mental philosophy and approach that allows you to kind of um stay sober, be productive and and continue on the running journey yeah um so those you know we see a lot of runners very popular to be a runner with trauma right especially nowadays in social media that's seems to seem to be what the algorithm favors right yeah overcoming adversity a struggle right so when you don't see those stories of those runners who they say they they don't come from trauma right well life is traumatic in general okay we're gonna find it no matter who we are and if you say you haven't had trauma yet you just run because you love it trauma will find you at some point in your life okay so we're gonna all go through something traumatic no matter what some some are just gonna do it earlier in life some are gonna have it self-inflicted some are gonna have it out of their control but we're all gonna go through it right and what running has taught me as a person who has self-inflicted my trauma some of it I have not I mean it was it was a result of my voluntary experience in the military it just happened that way right but all of this stuff has taught me something um and it's patience patience is the biggest thing right early on in recovery we have another saying that says this too shall pass right well a lot of times you're like hurry up and pass right can you hurry up and pass uh and I really haven't learned patience until I started going up in longer distances right you can only run as fast as your body's able to fast uh run um and sustain a pace right yeah I would love to have 50 miles be over in in four hours I would love to have a hundred miles be over in 12 hours but that's just not in the cards for me right so I'm one of those people who are 24 hours and longer and you're gonna have to learn some patience right and that's what running really taught me taught me with the business taught me with school taught me with my kids which I'm still working on by the way is patience right um uh but I I really uh let me pause as I go over past this yeah so it's really taught me a whole lot about that and hey look and I know these people right here good morning thank you I'll see you yeah that's the beautiful thing about running a lot right is when you see people that you uh you know yeah and uh but it's taught me patience man the the number one thing it has taught me is patience uh in life um that sometimes you just have to sit and lock in and that is the best thing that I've ever learned from running is sit and lock in and much like sobriety has taught me um like I mentioned before acts of service getting out of yourself that is the best way to get out of the pan cave when you're in an ultra marathon when you're sitting there struggling and you start feeling sorry for yourself I feel sick I feel bad you you know what you do is you you find that person out there on the course who's struggling and you go help them out and if that isn't a metaphor for sobriety in life if they go hand in hand it's crazy and some of it you just can't even plan for the uh the connection between life and running um it's just a beautiful thing to witness be a part of and experience every time I get out the door so that's really what what it's taught me your philosophy is is grounded and and your patience and your patient approach is in is important how has that led you to being a business owner starting Outridge running how has how is patience integral role in that and are you learning to be more patient with that I don't have room to grow you um yeah talk to us about about the the business in in sort of the um in the evolution of uh of everything you've been doing yeah so well we'll start from the beginning right uh what what started you know Nick to start ostrich running well I didn't know what I was gonna do covet had shifted the film industry completely you know hearing from my friends it was almost as if the universe uh paid me back in a way because if I was gonna ever go back to the film industry it was gonna be a completely different landscape from when I left it and when I left COVID hadn't happened yet right um so I went and I got an education I went I learned business I ended up going a little further getting my MBA and you know I was talking with a close friend of mine who you might hear on my podcast uh Jared Horton we call him the juice um we we've had a pretty core group of friends and we always look to each other for advice um we we bounce ideas off each other and I think uh when I was wrapping up my MBA I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do and my my friend Jarrett told me why don't you do something you're passionate about why don't you do something in running and I and I remember my first response to him was I can't stand running it's it hurts every day right but I I realized like in that response I had actually come to love running because it had taught me so much it had given me so much confidence but I I thought deeply about what my experience was like when I first got into running and it is a place that can be very intimidating very expensive you don't know who to listen to what to do and everybody's taking your money while doing it right um it's a it's a very tough industry to or sport to or hobby whatever you want to call it to uh take on um and as I learned more about business I learned more about how to run an organization that didn't just fly by night so to speak right how do I build something with meaning and intent that can outlast anything else around it and you know I wanted to be able to put something together that supported runners that supported the community and I say it often to so support the sport that changed my life and saved my life how do I give back to that right so it's slowly evolving as time goes on this is like this like living organism that is ostrich running and you know to keep the lights on I'll bring a product I try to solve a problem that I'm having because if I'm having it it's probably other people having the same problem and um yeah that's kind of where where it started um but of course you know the motto run scared is actually you know how we kind of met.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

And and in this motto of ostrich running run scared to me was always kind of like a metaphor that the fastest you're gonna ever run is when you're running for survival right the furthest that you're ever going to run is when you're running for survival. If you need to run as long as you can for persistence hunting then you you run until you know whatever you're chasing gives up but uh out of the fear of hunger right out of the fear of failure.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

And to me running scared meant putting yourself in a situation that was scary a distance a speed uh a community of people that you're you know you're not sure about but if you're putting yourself in an area that you're uncomfortable that's where growth happens and I always wanted my people and my community who has supported the brand to run scared and run in these uh these areas of life that are uncomfortable because that's where the most growth happens right um and I have a lot of visions a lot of plans for for this brand to continue to grow and support you know the community that has given me so much and it's exciting to be a part of and build yeah that's a that's a great answer I'm you know you kind of touched on a couple of things there with with with running scared is yeah exactly when we first started talking a little while ago it's we we kind of looked at it a little bit differently but it was the same kind of idea right like you know running at night being scared wanting to propel you to go faster shot a dopamine adrenaline whatever and then we wanted to we wanted to make some uh not necessarily much apparel but just media that kind of like created those immersive experiences but I think it sort of sits in the same in the same kind of vein. I you talked about kind of solving a problem I I'm wondering not only like your future goals for the company but I I'm gonna kind of like sort of um synthesize a few different things right like with with the explosion of running with or even trail running and and you just see how much how much bigger it's getting but also the influence of kind of AI and lots of digital technologies um and and almost like in some circles like in a reversion back to it and having just wanting like community runs and community groups and moving away from the virtual runs and all those kind of things like I'm wondering how do you position ostrich running in 2026? You know you don't have to tell us all your secrets in terms of what what that what what the plan is but I think it's an interesting time um especially when you see like from what I see it more overt like athlete sponsorships.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

I was listening to something where you know there is um there's crowdfunding for prize money now like at what point does a sponsor come in and just start really you know driving up the the purse value right because you're right it is expensive like as a running company how are you positioned moving forward in you know 2026 and beyond yeah so uh amazing amazing questions and I've thought about this often um in a perfect world ostrich running is this organization that has generated consistent revenue uh and we're a powerhouse running brand right in this industry I've met quite a few runners who fall in that position or in that that place where it is very expensive they're an elite level but they have no sponsorship they have nothing to make a living off of kind of taking it back to that pre-fontaine era right where what about the athletes right in a perfect world I would love to hire athletes as my employees and give them a salary to just run and help out right I look at I hate to name drop Hoka and all these these big brands but it's clearly obvious what's happening right yeah they're building these billion dollar organizations off the backs of athletes um and where are they getting uh payment for this right only one percent two percent of them are really actually making a contract and you have to work you have to run these crazy uh paces in order for it to happen but there's these influencers out there we'll uh dub them the the mid-pack runners right which I I hate doing that as well because they're still doing incredible things as well but there's a common thing that we're seeing right if you are a good storyteller you're able to get brand sponsorships and move well within this sport and this industry they are selling shoes they're selling product right but still in comparison these deals are crazy I I look at like some of these uh people I've befriended over the years uh you know being in this and I I ask them okay so you're uh you're sponsored by this company you know what do you get I get a 40% discount and I can't wear any other brand stuff so it's it's wild to me that they're building these billion dollar hundred million dollar industries off the backs of these influencers and they're giving them a discount right it's just it's crazy and I want to be able to give back to the community to everybody I would love for somebody to make a living off of mine yeah it won't be a a 10 million dollar coca contract but I'll tell you what I'll make I'll give you an annual salary to help me with you know social media and go run your races when you need to because now we live in an age of digital uh this digital age where a lot of these things can be done remotely can be done you know separated and uh on on a location for something right so that is the beauty of that the pandemic brought to us right and brought small business owners the growth of AI has allowed me to do the job of 15 people just myself therefore lowering my my cost to run the business I um I famously say I don't run ads I run miles um because I truly believe that there's no point to run ads right now it's the the whole industry has gotten filled with so much noise of UGC the moment you get somebody like I bought this and I bought that and this I'm I'm swiping away right authenticity has lost its voice in this day of AI and uh UGC content that when you finally do get something authentic it resonates and you know it's a slower growth but if I gotta run as many races and talk to as many runners out there and tell them my mission here's my product that I believe in go spread it to the world right yeah it won't be uh a hundred million dollar organization in a year but you know what it'll be something that'll be sustainable and they'll feel my authenticity that comes from the brand itself and that is the beauty of the digital world we live in now is that authenticity reigns supreme once again and it's so easy to to find it like AI um ads all this stuff you can pick it out so much easier and I understand that AI is getting better but there's something internally The spidey sense, that something always feels off about something that has been perfectly created. And when I do when I started my show, my podcast, I have a background of film, and I could make it look like a pretty set, and I could do all these things, but I got tired of seeing pretty sets. I wanted to see raw and ugly. And to me, that's part of authenticity. The mistakes, the greediness, right? That reign supreme now. And that's where I love that uh AI in the digital world is going, that it becomes easier to pick out authentic people versus the uh inauthentic individuals.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah, that's a that's a great answer, man. Like uh this is not a running podcast anymore. It's a business podcast. We're cracking it down and laying it out for the next generational. You know, you you know, you you you brought up a lot of good points. I'm making some notes there. I think the one of the things that I find you know craziest is the stratification of like the sponsorships and you know the top 1%. You're right, you know, they're making a living, but everybody else is having to do all these things for I'm not even sure how much money I uh Western states, these things they don't even have they're no prize money, right? But there's this there's this, I think this cultural piece that uh that you know um I don't want to say tribal, but it kind of like the allure of these events has these runners, these top-notch athletes, right? Amazing athletes, adventure endurance athletes, doing all these crazy things and uh you know, testing the limits for not that they need to get paid, but the amount like you should be compensated for for great work, right? That's really I think uh important. I also think to your other point, like that whole midsection, not even midsection, it's like 90%, it creates a lot of space for um you know to create communities, right? Those sub-communities, those sub sub-organizations in there where you're right, uh maybe it's not a hundred million dollar company, but maybe it's something that is sustainable and and can be you know a profitable endeavor. So I in that sense I I completely completely agree. You know, I I want to just kind of add on, right? Like maybe you kind of mentioned it, but moving forward, like where do you think where do you think the power will lie maybe in a year or two? Because right now, I think, I think you're absolutely correct, right? What some of the big companies are doing UTMB, like they are kind of really just um creating a little bit of a monopoly here, it seems. But is it is it going to be the fans, the sponsors, the athletes, the race directors? Like there's it's it's really I think an important moment in trail running or running in general. Um I wonder who emerges as the defining leader.

unknown 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Um I love that question, and I was so excited to uh get to this point, right? Um because I don't think the power will ever lie in one single individual because it's much like well it's much like the uh the experiment of government, right? Of checks and balances, right? I'm not gonna say uh not to get into anything else, but like, you know, we we want checks and balances because we don't want one one uh one portion of this industry to have complete power, right? The people creating the products or the the races have to deliver something of quality. Time will expose a money grab, an inefficient product, especially given that everything is in the public eye now. Um to you have to have an influencer who's authentically there for something, right? If your favorite influence runner starts trying to sell you life insurance, um you're gonna be like, oh, wait, what are you getting into now? Right? And you stop uh listening to their voice as an authority in that position. Um and the running brands, if they if they have um a product that is subpar, um again, that is gonna be exposed as well. Um things are always in the public eye, so you kind of need this delicate ecosystem of influencer, uh running company, and race director to almost work together, right? To have this symbiotic relationship because like we talked about before, authenticity is what will reign supreme, and it is very easy to see something inauthentic, and you may not see it right away, but over time it will show its face, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Yeah, that's a good that's a good answer. Like I I like how it's you know things are seldom exist in a binary, and I think that makes is a really, really good point. I I know that some of the conversations we've had, there's been some of the guests I've had on, you know, a call for more of um I don't want to say a professionalization, but just more like something credentialized, like a a standard circuit where there's testing and like things that like like you just said, right? Checks and balances that really kind of exist, right? Um and and just how that is a bit of like dichotomy because it runs counter to standalone races, right? That kind of have their own thing, like the grassroots kind of kind of feel and vibe. But as it as it becomes more of a circuit, I wonder how how that how that goes. But I I I think it's I think it's I think it's interesting that the things you touch on and how they kind of all need to work together for it to um to really kind of to move forward as like a whole unit.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Um and influencers are honestly like important because if all I saw was videos of Hans Troyer, and like the only way you're gonna ever make it to HOPA is if you run this pace. I'm never running an ultra marathon, there's no way, right? This kid is incredible, right? But these influencers they peel the veil back and they give you a space that you can relate to, right? We a lot of us would watch Michael Jordan growing up, but we never went to go, we knew we were never gonna play in the NBA. We knew we were there's no opportunity, right? So uh we just didn't go try out for the NBA, but like these influencers are making you feel like you have confidence to go out there and do something. So it's very important to have somebody who is a relatable person, and these elites and these professionals need those social media mid-pack leaders to bring more people into this sport because that adds more revenue. What we're falling short is on the sharing of that revenue from these big companies.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

100%. Yeah, uh 100%. I think Two With Running is um you tell my son he he thinks he is gonna be Michael Jordan, like he thinks he's going to the NBA, so you gotta talk to him. Yes. I I I think when I think when people look at runners or look at yeah, even triathletes or cyclists, they they see someone that kind of looks like them. Um someone who's not seven feet tall, someone who's not I had a friend who played pro baseball, this guy was huge. Like when you actually went beside him, like he's probably the small person in the league. Exactly, right? And and I think I think that's a reason why it's accessible in terms of like a like a mental piece. I think that's why you see a lot of people getting into ultras when they're older. It's amazing how many people that I've spoken to that like did their first ultra in their 40s. Yeah that's really different than than other sports. You know, I I find, you know, like I don't know, that's that's perhaps something that that has to play into it, but no, it's true because I was uh recently running with this uh little sprint club, this track club, uh bunch of young kids in there.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

And uh and I was talking to some of them, and I'm like, why don't you just go take over? You're you're a 222 marathon, you're a 218, you're a you're an Olympic uh qualifier marathon runner, why don't you just go destroy everybody in an ultramarathon? And it's just not exciting to them because the response to me was I'll do that when I retire. And I was like, okay, so it is the old man sport, right? And uh it is where we can kind of uh you know slow our pace down a little bit. Um, but yeah, but then you look at these people running 12-hour marathon 100 miles, and uh you know, it's just insane.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Yeah, when I looked at the Black Canyon paces, I was like, oh my god, yeah, that's nuts. Like, yeah, so anyways. Not for me, it's for me to talk to these people, not to necessarily be these people. So yeah, exactly. Uh okay, it all drives it all drives to, you know, your your mantra is running scared. We're we're running scared media, you know. Our our our thing is a little bit different over here, but still running scared. So we always drive towards the running scared question. So can you share a story, an anecdote that would classify it as your running scared moment? That could be a moment of fear, a moment where you were actually scared. I know I had a moment where I thought someone was chasing me down the street by a golf course that I was run by. What is your running scared moment, or what has been your running scared moment?

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Alright. Since you guys already got the philosophical answer of Austrian running, running scared, I'm not gonna go that route. I'm educator to running scared media's actual running scared motto, right? And it's on this Black Star Canyon trail. Um I love horror films, I love ghosts and all these things. Like I mentioned, I grew up in in New Mexico and is a very uh Navajo land, right? There's this aura about a lot that happens out there in the desert, um, you know, weird occurrences, and I love that. I love the uh I love I love that Halloween is my Christmas, let's just put it like that. So in that canyon, Black Star Canyon, um I was training for a hundred mile, and at the time I was also in my final year of my MBA program, and I had a lot of long runs scheduled, and my my courses started, went on Saturdays also, and because it was for working professionals, and they were at like 9 a.m. So if I had a four-hour trail run, I needed to get done because when I got done with class, usually there was a soccer game or a baseball game or some dad duty, right? So I would start doing a lot of my runs about three in the morning in that canyon. And if you love horror and you love to be scared, 3 a.m. is definitely that time to do it. So I was out there running, and every time I'd be out there running in that section, like clockwork, I would go through that historical area that we discussed uh with the uh the Indian artifacts, and um we I was always running in that section. This is about six miles into the run, and every single time you just get this scary, weird feeling, and I swear I can always hear people like feet hitting the dirt following me, and I'd always look behind me, and I would be so freaked out. I'm like, oh my god, let me uh well every hurry up and finish this section as as fast as I can. So um if you always looked at my splits from those runs that started at three in the morning, around the six-mile mark, you would see me hit a very fast split, and I'm not a fast runner. Uh, but every single time I would do it, it would it would just crush me. It was just the scariest thing. Um, so that was definitely one of my running scared moments that would always be that section of that trail run. So if you're a ghost oh the other thing is they do a ghost hunting uh night tour there in that same that same uh area. And I've seen a lot of weird stuff out there in the trails at three in the morning. Um, you know, random lights, very active area if you are uh person who loves that type of uh topic.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

I yeah, I just love that. I recommend anybody that's a runner like to do that. It there's something about running like I I I similar stories myself, just in our in my neighborhood, but just confronting your yourself when there's no one around and it's dark and it's just it's literally it's it's the silence is deafening. I I love that and we love horror. We started this a long time ago reviewing horror films, and that's what kind of led us to mixing running and horror, so we're definitely aligned in that area. But yeah, that would be that would be scary, you know. You're out, it's 3 a.m. Canyon, like yeah, just there's so many thoughts going through your head, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Yeah, I wanted to do uh and I may still do this, but uh have you ever uh I don't know if you're familiar with uh Knottsbury Farm or Universal Studios or Six Flags, um, the amusement parks out here.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Universal un Yeah, Universal Studios, yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Okay, so every Halloween they have like uh a Halloween portion where they put on this like crazy like haunted mazes all around the park and uh crazy movie style makeup, and it's just amazing, but like they'll hop out and scare you in the middle of the you know out of a dark area. Yeah, so I wanted to do a run scared race in a canyon where I have like crazy costumes of people just jumping out with a a chainless chainsaw, just reving it in your face at two in the morning at mile 40, and just to make sure that you felt alive and call it like a run-scared race. And uh, you know, you never know when something's around the corner to just like jump at you at two in the morning or you know, just before the sun comes up.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

I think you get a ton of people to do that. I think that would be fun. And it would be so fun. Yeah, exactly. Dude, this has been an amazing conversation. Uh I love it. Thank you for for joining us. This has actually been one of our longest conversations, but just you know, you bring a real unique insight just in terms of uh how your position is a runner, uh business owner, uh a little bit of a visionary in terms of someone taking their brands um at kind of a pivotal moment in in running, and you know, just to see where everything where everything kind of goes in um into the future, where everything kind of kind of happens. So uh for now. Yeah, thank you, dude.

SPEAKER_02 59:47

Yeah, thank you for giving me a platform to go a little deeper into the uh the idea of ostrich running. Um, you know, I don't find too many opportunities to get into that. And uh I just want to say thank you for you know having me on and you know uh this is kind of what you get when you get another podcast host, right? You get somebody who could just talk just as long as you so you're therefore that results in the longest episode. I had to make sure that I had some sort of record for running scared media, right? And if it goes for longest record, you know, put me up there on the podium and we'll see who can beat it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, we got you. Okay, so just just before we get out of here, and we're gonna put this in the uh we're gonna put this in the show notes, we're gonna blast this out. Um tell us where can we go to buy running or to to buy ostrich running gear? Um, what what's the website? Uh what's your social media tell us?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:37

So you can go to ostrichrunning.com uh and in there there's social media links to uh Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, um, to our show, uh the Ostrich Running Podcast. Um on Instagram, ostrich.running, um everything's on there. Um you know, like I always mention to everybody uh when I do the show, I uh I will respond to as many messages as I can. So if anybody ever has anything to say, a question to ask, um I'm not one to claim that I know it all, but I can give you my experience. And if you ever just want to message me, please feel free to. It is a small business, it is me running a lot of this stuff. Uh, and I love the community, I love people giving feedback. Uh any any questions, I'm I'm there for anybody. So you can reach out to me on anything and just find us there. So ostrichrunning.com and uh Instagram is uh at ostrich.running.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Cool, all right. People check that out. All right, Nick, amazing. Thanks again, and we'll make sure to uh to catch up in the future, all right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

Yes, I can't wait to do it uh uh for the next one. Thanks for having me again. No worries, talk to you.