Running Buddies featuring Michele Graglia

On today's show the conversation takes us to Italy where we have an excellent chat with ultra runner Michele Graglia. I had never met Michele before but the conversation really flowed and we ended speaking for over an hour! Michelle is an elite ultramarathoner who transitioned into the sport after a successful career as a professional model. He discusses his upbringing in the Italian Alps, explaining how his childhood connection to the mountains eventually led to leave the high-fashion industry for the world of extreme racing. 

Graglia details his victories in prestigious events like Badwater 135 and his record-setting run across the Atacama Desert, emphasizing the mental discipline and logistical precision required for such feats. The conversation explores the evolving landscape of ultrarunning, touching on the financial challenges professional athletes face as the sport grows more commercial. He also recounts a harrowing encounter with an Arctic wolf during a race in the Yukon, illustrating the profound solitude and primal nature of her adventures. Finally, Graglia shares his future aspirations, including her current training for the Tor des Géants, a notoriously difficult 220-mile mountain race.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

On today's show, we are running with Michelle Gralia, an ultra marathoner, an author, coach, former runway model, and an adventurer who has completed and won some of the baddest and most extreme races on the planet. Welcome to the show, Michelle. Jamie, it's a pleasure to be here with you today. Yeah, you know what? It's uh it is fantastic to have you on. Um you know, when when we're kind of looking to curate a roster for people that we want to speak to, yeah, we want to have like a diverse cross-section of individuals, and you certainly hit the mark on that. And you know, one of the things that uh that stood out to me was the Badwater win in 2018. I I want to kind of get into that. That's an incredible race and an incredible finish uh result that you had there. Uh so we'll we'll get into that a little bit later, but yeah, thanks for joining us. It's amazing. So um we do this in sort of two segments here, right? We do like some quick hits just to find out like where you're running, what's happening, and then we go into sort of sort of some longer form questions. So where are you today?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So I am in uh Prato Nivoso, which is a beautiful resort, like ski resort in the southern part of Piemonte in the Alps, and uh it's just a gorgeous day today, lots of snow, plenty of sun, and I'm just enjoying this uh this shakeout run after a pretty heavy session of uh ski alps, ski mountaineering earlier this morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Amazing. You know, just as you started speaking there, I I heard this like um this very light breeze of wind sort of cascade behind you in the back. It was the perfect, it it created the perfect portrait for the listeners, right? So so that's amazing. So you said us a shake out. How long are you gonna go up for today?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Um, about seven to eight miles, something uh slow pace, just to throw in an extra hour, hour and 15 minutes. Amazing. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

What is I I know you kind of um you sort of uh to give us an idea, a descriptive what what what is around you, but what is something interesting about your specific space, the place that you're in right now? If that's like a if it's a trail, what is something interesting about it?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Well, it's covered in snow. Um, we've been getting an insane amount of snow in the Alps this year, and uh it's just stunning. Um there's no I mean here, as I said before, um, as before we started the interview, it's either up or down, so there's no real flat sections, and uh it's perfect for training and for you know conditioning for mountain races.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Amazing. What if so if if this is a question we always ask, almost like if you're going to different locations, you want to find you know the best restaurant for a meal that you might want to have. If you're coming into your to the town that you're in or or the uh the surrounding area, is there a particular trail that you just need to go and run if you're into trail running, or or are they just all fantastic?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Well, it's pretty much amazing all around, but there is the one mountain here called Mondolait, which is a gorgeous rocky mountain, and uh it's about um four five 4,500 to 5,000 feet gain in about let's say three and a half miles, so it's proper mountain terrain, uh lots of vert, lots of technicality, and to me it's one of the go-to when I come up here. Of course, right now it's swamped with snow, and so when I go up, it's with skins, you know, ski backcountry skiing type of deal.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yeah, yeah. I you know, a qu a question that when I'm talking to people that are up in the mountains, I always ask them, or I always forget, but does it sort of um does is there a variation between kind of single track and then and then wide trail, or is it mostly really narrow? I I if you could kind of give the the listener an idea of when you're going up the up the slopes, right? Is it is it quite narrow or can it can it get wide in areas or is it a little extra?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

You know, yeah, it it is a mixture of both. Uh the Alpine country is you know lives and thrives of this, you know, the there's a big mountain culture up here, yeah. Whether people skiing, running, mountain biking, paragliding, hiking, whatever, these mountains are swamped with people. So you can literally choose your trail. You can go through nice, comfortable, wide, uh, what we call like you know, fire roads type of thing, or you can go through the slopes where you can hit sometimes 40, 45, sometimes even 50 grades. And or yeah, and or you can get on more technical single trails. So you can literally pick your pick your trail, pick your way up the mountain. And so it also helps when it comes down to training, because at times you can go harder on steeper, and or like I'm doing right now, choose a more, it still goes up, but it's a more windy, comfortable, let's say 10 to 15% grade where you can actually jog, and uh it can be uh a great option for you know shake out runs or pleasant hikes, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

You you mentioned it can be swamped with people. I'm wondering, is there any kind of localism with trail running in these areas in terms of people that you know are coming in from out of town, out of out of country, really, that are kind of coming in to train, or or do you find the community pretty welcoming, even though there's a huge there can be a huge influx of people?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Absolutely welcoming. I mean, here these towns thrive and live thanks to tourism, to people coming in for either skiing, snowboarding, running, whatever. And so the whole it's not just a specific community, it's not just the skiing community, it's not just the running community, the whole town, the whole community, it's the mountain community. So the the places, the restaurants, everything is, you know, very welcoming, very involving. There's a lot of camaraderie, there's a lot of support, you know, you're out on the trails, everybody kind of cheers you on, whether you're running six minute mile or sixteen minute mile. And so, you know, it's like it makes the whole experience that much more enjoyable because you know, in a way, you thrive off of that energy, you know?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Of course. You talk about community. I I want to shift gears, I want to talk about a different kind of community. I want to talk about your family and your childhood, and I want to talk about before the running and the modeling. What was what was it like growing up? Did you was it an active family? Did did your parents run? You talked about the culture being an outdoorsy culture. Is that something that you were exposed to from like very early on?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, absolutely. Um very grateful for that. I'll tell you the truth. I I was I started skiing when I was two and a half years old. I could barely walk, but I was already skiing.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Um, it's like ice hockey in Canada.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Exactly. I mean, it's like, you know, my father has always been like you, huge um skiing fan, cycling fan. So from a very young age, both my sister and I were introduced to the mountains, skiing in this in the winter, hiking in the summer. My sister actually lived in Canada for many years. She was a professional snowboarder with Salamon.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

So really, wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, both of us, we kind of got, you know, we were instilled that connection, passion, respect for the mountains from a very young age. And that of course, in many ways, influenced both our journeys in life. Because, you know, for me, you kind of poured into the the whole ultra running through a running scene, and for her, into the snowboarding scene. So, you know, as I said, I'm very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

You know, it's I know that the um your modeling experience is kind of well documented. So I want to set up a question here to take us into um you know, your your running now. I know because with mountains within, that was a that was a beautiful piece, and I had a look when I was doing some research. Like you had a very unexpected fall into the world of modeling in high fashion. Um, and then you talk about you talk about the adventure into the unknown. Like I think even just for what you're saying, but even just in those in those clips and what I was reading, it's like how you were saying it. So do you think the unexpected nature of becoming a model and throwing you into the unknown sort of parallels ultra running, the possibility of like searching for unknown through through the races and the trail races that you've done? Like I I I want to open that question up to you because sometimes there's these pivotal points in life where it can really change things and put things on an axis. So I'm wondering how much of that experience has influenced your running and your thirst for adventure.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Oh, absolutely. I mean, just like as you said, it's uh it's very much about adventure, about taking on what you don't know, you know, like kind of venturing to into the unknown for real. So I think it's always been a great part of my attitude and or philosophy in life, being drawn to taking on challenges that I'm not quite, you know, familiar with, but that I'm fascinated with and kind of taking the step, that leap of faith in a way, and seeing where that new path may lead. And I mean it that in a very uh honest and truthful way because I guess it's part of my an inherent part of my of my being, of my soul, wanting to discover new things. I think there's a there's a great sense of uh it's all driven by a great sense of curiosity. And uh that always kind of fueled, fueled that passion and fuel whichever endeavor I took on in life. I definitely always took the the road less traveled, and I always wanted to feel a sense of challenge to see where I can go, how far I can take it. And uh in a way or another, it was of course challenging. Well, in many ways, it was challenging, but at the same time, he always opened the horizon to incredible opportunities, to live incredible experiences. And so to this day, I still try to take the road less traveled.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I no, I think that's that's great. I I I hear that a lot, and and you're articulating it so well. Think about um, you know, your start in modeling. Think about your first ultra marathons that you ran. Can you parallel any any of the challenges? Are there any similarities between the two? Did you learn anything from the modeling experience that has helped you in ultra running? I know those are two sort of polar things in terms of what's happening, but you know, often often we find, you know, sort of symmetry in things that are very different. So I'm wondering if you could comment on that.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Well, I think, well, as you said, they were definitely polar opposites in terms of like even energy that comes from it. But I can say a common ground was definitely the commitment and the dedication to the craft. Because of course, modeling is a very superficial and luxurious type of world, flashy world, but industry. But uh in uh during that time, I learned or I kind of refine the art to be dedicated to the craft when it comes down to self-care, training, taking care of my body, being on top of my nutrition, being very responsible when it comes down to you know the professional side of it, being on time, being uh committed to the job, being committed to the clients, being um pretty much on top of my game. And that when I started running was a I don't want to say easy transition, but because of course the training is completely different, the approach is completely different, the mentality, all the philosophy, but the commitment to the craft is something that I poured back into it, and uh he paid, he paid off in a great way. And so, yeah, that's pretty much the one thing that I can say he helped me um to continue the journey.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah, you're outlining that kind of and and um identifying that responsibility, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, absolutely. So take us through when does um what's the inflection point, right? Like that sort of when the equilibrium changes from modeling to running. Uh when do you start to shift your focus on on ultra running and that sort of transition into that more focus, or is that focus still ongoing or that transition?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Well, that transition kind of happened in uh 2011 when I was kind of falling off the modeling uh more on a personal level than uh on an actual professional level, if it makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

No, I don't know. I just couldn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

So I I started running towards the end of 2010 and then discovered ultra running and I kind of jumped on that right away. But of course, you know, um I still had my profession, my career to kind of continue for a few more years before I was able to kind of say, okay, you know what? I'm done with this. I'm gonna turn this page, who actually close the book and open a whole new one.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Sounds like your heart wasn't in it at the end.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Oh, definitely not. I mean, I was definitely trying to escape that world for a good few years before I was actually able to close that chapter because you know, I was still living in New York, I still have bills to pay, I was still committed to my agency, my agents, my agent, and uh and uh yeah, and you know, that was what was paying the bills and allowing me to live a certain lifestyle. So, you know, when I started running back in 2011, 2012, 2013, I did not, you know, of course I was still a newbie, and it took a few years before I started creating, let's say, uh I don't want to say, I don't want to sound like, you know, uh bragging, but in a way like creating a name for myself, picking up picking up sponsors and eventually being able to live off of it. And we need to also be honest, you know, the the community, the sport was not at the same level where it is right now.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

That's a great we're talking about a great point. Yes, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, a decade and a half ago, you know, there were like very, very, very few people that were able to to have contracts and more so contracts that allow that will allow you to live off of it. Because, you know, you can get ambassadorships and get a pair of shoes here and there, but you know, those don't pay the bills, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

It's a it's a great point. I just you know what? I want to just I wanna I wanna push on just on on one thing and then I'm gonna pivot to something else. When you know you talk about um you talk about the modeling, you talk about self-care, you talk about all the responsibility that comes with that. Is there is is the self-care culture and modeling um is it is there a running culture in there or is it more of like a gym culture, like you have to go to the gym and yoga, or is there a running culture that you found? Did you find a even a community within a community in that space or or or were they separate for you?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Like you mean here or back when I was in the US?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

In New York, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Well, when I first started, it was definitely more of a gym culture for me because coming from the modeling world, you know, I was definitely more dedicated to the um shaping of the body rather than the performance of the body. So for me, for a very long time, it was a very very much a solo trip. Yeah, if you understand what I mean. It's like I started running, I did not know anybody that was running. I did not enter any communities for a very, very long time. So for me, that running journey into the community and thriving off of the community support didn't start for a few years until I moved to California. And that's when everything changed. The whole energy changed, the whole understanding of what I was doing changed because for the first time I actually met my own. You know what I mean? I was like, okay, here are people that understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, that do the same thing, that have the same perspective, that have the same philosophy. And so for me, it was like a change in gear, not just in terms of running physically, but also mentally and philosophically.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

So let's let's go there. You you moved to California, uh, you start running a little bit more frequently, you become an author in 2017.

unknown 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

I'm curious about writing of the book and getting running more sounds like getting centered and maybe even being happier. I don't want to speak for you, but it sounds like you, you know, you really have one ch one one chapter closed, another one opened again. Um did you did you always want to like did you see yourself as a writer? Did you is this something that you were just having so much fun and enjoying kind of this new this new part in your life? You wanted to share it with others. How how did the book come about?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So just like many other things in my life, it happened by chance, believe it or not. But you know, I was uh I definitely got um a good like let's say experience and I got some good results under my belt in those years. And uh it happened by chance in a way that I became friend with this very um, I don't want to say famous, but very well-known sport photographer. His name is Dino Bonelli. Um, him and I shared an uh incredible amount of traveling experiences. He actually crew for me a bad water in 2018 when I wanted, but rewinding back to 2016, he made uh like nonchalantly, he made his uh introduction with this guy called Folco Tertani. And Folco is uh one of the most uh known famous author in Italy. He's he comes from uh from a lineage of writers. His father was was a very popular war reporter which wrote some of the most amazing books in the Italian literature. When it comes down to philosophy and uh discovering of the self, he's the guy, he's the go-to. And uh I wrote I I read all his books when I was a kid, and so when that email came through and uh Dino made that introduction, I was like, you know, I couldn't believe it. And uh, you know, at the time I was living in California and uh Falco used to spend the winters over there in Malibu, so and he loved to run, so the connection was easy. He's like, you guys connect, go out for run and see what happens. And what happened is a beautiful friendship was born. And uh just like like two good friends running on the trails, sharing life stories, sharing our attitude and you know understanding and understanding of life really. He was very much, he became very fascinated about my decision and switch in life from that, let's say, glistening and you know flashing lights world of the you know modeling and deciding to take the dirt roads, dirt trails, and uh take on this for many not understandable decision of going that direction. And uh one day he was like you know what I want to write an article on your story. And that article was published a week later on the first pages of Vanity Fair which I've I I kid you not like not even 12 hours after not even two hours sorry not even two hours after that article came out I was actually in Milan at that time and I received a call from uh the the main editor of Sperling and Kupfer which is a very popular um editing company out here and uh and they were like you know what we love the story if you guys are on board we are willing to give you a contract to offer you a contract to write to know more about this story and to write a book together and so I was like you know like Charlie in the chocolate factory like I got a golden ticket and I was like I ran back to Falk and I was like we got a contract for him you know for him it was like normal but for me it was like once in a lifetime opportunity to share my story and more than anything to write a piece with this guy which I admire for pretty much all my life so that was a life changing moment for sure this is an incredible story and just you know I'm putting honestly I'm putting together the timeline of just how things are happening for you and you're not even 40 years old yet no no definitely I was actually 30 32 30 going on 33 yeah yeah oh man so once the uh once the book gets going you know how how is that you know that's clearly another challenge I've spoken to people that have written books before and they always talk about just how much I I don't want to say trade and how much more work it is than they thought it was going to be because I think they all go into it thinking it's gonna be you know this this monstrosity of a challenge but how is the writing of it for you you know the what what like the hours the time I know the editing and making sure that you know how how did you kind of navigate that so it was a incredible I tell you like it was an incredible experience um very much like a like I feel like I felt like I went to a to a shrink and I just bore myself out and I just opened myself raw I shared the good and the bad and the ugly and um Folco and I decided to do it in a very um unfiltered way. So the idea was for him and I to just sit together for weeks months and every day share a story share a pivotal time pivotal story in my life why I decided to go that way what happened in Miami what happened in New York why I decided to start running what brought me to start doing ultramarathons and of course you know um some we shared some of the most iconic races that I did at a time including the Ultra Milano Sanremo the Yukon the Badwater and um and then the the actual writing was his job so the actual piecing and editing was all in his in his uh craft and uh when the the book came out you know we had an amazing opportunity it was published in Italy initially in 2017 and um and uh it was just uh an incredible opportunity to to oh did I break out for a second it's okay it was five seconds so it's it's cool so um you know it was just an incredible opportunity to open up to you know it it it it is such a blessing to be able to share your story and in many ways inspire others uh through your understanding and I as you said you know I was still a very very much a young a young person 33 years old but those choices in many ways um shaped my life in a way that um allowed me to to live life on my terms of course but also live some of the most expert amazing experiences that I could ever even have dreamed of and so when when these stories reached people and you I still to the day I still receive messages of people saying you know you you changed my life I started running thanks to you and you know it's empowering is such a positive energy that still gives me in many ways purpose to the day and once again these are one of the the the moments and experiences in my life that I'm the most grateful for. Yeah just honestly just even speaking with you you can feel the you can hear the passion and the positivity and and you know what I mean I to me it sounds like there's a lot of resilience there as well um and I I I you know you said uh you talk about um you know inspiring for running and and I want to I want to kind of talk about the running the the book comes out and then you know by doing some research 2018 2020 uh you tackle some like just incredible events and and you do well and you you win you win um Moab uh you know uh Badwater uh crossing the Atacama the like the desert the these are these are really extreme races and I need to know well I'm curious and and the listeners are as well like what what changed for you in that time I'm gonna assume the dedication kind of ratcheted up a notch uh but but in that little period and and you still you know I mean you you were racing other races you were racing like frequently and and those three races were in like a five or six month span which is incredible what yeah what what is happening with you and your craft and the craft of running during that time I think everything kind of aligned up uh in terms of my vision the opportunities that I had at that time to dedicate myself wholeheartedly to the to the training to the craft and uh when you do that things kinda uh align you know in terms of um uh like the visualization and the manifestation I believe you know I I do yoga I I do meditate I tend to visualize and and hopefully manifest that energy and I was able in those years to come to fruit you know to make everything come to fruition and because everything was aligned everything was exactly where I needed to be I was exactly where I wanted to be and I was exactly who I wanted to be so I was surfing that wave of positive energy and I felt blessed grateful aligned and and the purpose was was just flowing you know I was flowing with the purpose of why I was doing what I was doing so everything kind of clicked and it was probably uh the best time in my life because everything was kind of effortless you know listening to you in the story like there's opportunities that's presented itself to you I I I can see that right I can see that and and the listeners will uh but there is a drive about you and these opportunities while presented you don't succeed in them in unless you're driven to succeed in them so oh what what's what's what's your motivation with with these races these huge massive races everything falls into place but what's motivating you um to me it's always been I circle back to the beginning to me it's always been about uh it's always been driven by curiosity and finding out what's possible I do these long races because I want to see where I can go how far I can take it but water of course has its own story because it it is the it is the race that inspired me from the very beginning so um it's almost like in 2018 when I won it to me it was the closing of a perfect seven year cycle that began in a very negative treacherous time depressing time in my life when I was in New York reading that book the Dean Carnazas book where he was talking about bad water and seven years later finding myself crossing that line at the Whitney Portal arms up some of my best friends around me was just the the culmination of that and the closing of that circle and the crowning of probably the biggest dream in my life um and that kind of allowed me to feed more into it because I was actually you know you can believe you can do things but then until you don't do it you know you you don't know but then when you actually reach that goal you're like oh okay I am actually capable of doing it so let's see where you know where where I can go now and if this is not the limit where is that limit so once again curiosity once again adventure once again exploration not of places but of our own potential well my own potential so that's why right there on a whim I was like I always had this crazy dream of running across these the most extreme uh environments on the planet and the first one that came to mind is the driest desert on the planet let's go to Atacama I got a team ready and less than a month and a half after winning Bedwater I was running 1000 kilometers across the Atacama Desert in eight days and a half three marathons a day.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Yeah that is it's it's wild I so we did um you know talking about uh runners that do extreme distances uh we did a piece with Mike Wardian last year and it was it was on bad water we called it inferno so we did like a 60 minute audio drama we interviewed him and and then we we sort of docudrama the whole thing it's it's really quite cool um not self-promotion there but you know it's it's so funny some of the things that he would tell us he used to uh train for bad water with like a you know like a vacuum cleaner with hot air blowing on his face he used to go for bag runs while hung over just so he could be dehydrated oh my god he he's told us he's told us some of just the the the craziest things of that race can you give me what is what is the one thing if it was the heat or if it was the the climb or if the what was the one thing about bad water that either surprised you or you were just like I oh my goodness I cannot believe this is happening.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Well I I tell you the truth I had my I ran my first bad water in 2016. Oh so you had some experience okay yeah so when I went back into it and I I I did everything wrong everything I could do wrong I did wrong in 2016. I finished 25th which is still you know I still finished yeah that's but I finished badly I finished literally crawling I was in 25th position which is okay but I knew that I could do better and so when I went back in 2018 to me it was like I know exactly what I need to do and I just need to stick to the plan and just follow you know just put a foot in front of the other and and just get to the finish line. And to me there was not one moment in that race where I had an as an ounce of fear or doubt. To me it was just like just go you know what you need to do and I was just on top of the game from the very first step to the very last. I had an amazing team that allowed me to do that because they were on top of their game as well and we actualized that vision perfectly I cannot say it was not hard but there was not a moment where I had an ounce of of doubt and it was beautiful. It was a beautiful race from the beginning to the end.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

The heat of course was was crazy you know we started and in 2018 when I won it I tell you this it was the hottest year on record so it was the hottest uh uh bad water ever we started you speak Celsius right yeah so it was it was 46 degrees at 11 p.m at night when we started 46 and we reached during the day when I went through Panamin Springs which is right in the middle of the day we reached 53.8 which is almost 54 degrees I mean it was just like hell but I did not feel anything I was just like we had an amazing cooling strategy we had uh we had like you know it was like a choral like a team effort and everything just clicked and so when I finished that what that race to me was just like we freaking did it and it's just the most glorious feeling you can have in life I promise you need blocks of ice oh my god I I went through I went through in between like drinking and and everything I went through 36 liters of water holy wow yeah that is 36 liters I can't even imagine that you know I'm in southern Ontario in Canada and we're lucky if we get to 30 Celsius and even running like it we I'm just not acclimatized to that and just the just the excuse me the difference in elevation starting at sea level and then doing the climb up to just it's it's an incredible race and the anybody that finishes it I'm impressed with the fact that you won it was uh was amazing and then to to go on to do those other races those in a lab and attacama like so close afterwards yeah you must be riding like you just said riding a wave and uh and just kind of um just kind of being at peace with your running and also the support structure you know I'm sure like if you don't have a good support structure you know you can die having good pacers having you said a cooling strategy a driver all the all these things are just it's it's so it's so important so it is a must it's a must exactly people that do these things unsupported uh is is you know it's it's it can be lethal yeah and that's what happened to I learned I learned on my skin in 2016 I went really close to to doing some stupid stuff and uh I was like okay I cannot you cannot it's such a extreme heat that you cannot confront it you cannot face it without the proper precautions and so once you understand that and you understand that it is a necessity then the right strategy makes it or breaks it you know I I that that's that's an incredible kind of recount of of that I want to circle back to something that you talked about earlier um in the interview where you talked about you know how ultra running back in you know 2011 1213 was not what it was today trail running ultra running in your opinion and I'm gonna a follow up on this but what what is it today?

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Well it it definitely has evolved and uh it definitely has evolved in a in an incredible way exponentially and um um it it I I can tell you like it's both good and bad for me of course it's good interesting because you know there there's pros and cons. The pros of course are the fact that it is becoming uh more of a we cannot say mass sport but definitely more popular and when a sport becomes more popular there are more interests there are more there's more attention there's more sponsors there's more excitement there's more support there's more there's more everything uh which builds the infrastructure builds the community builds the race builds the support even for the runners as we said before back in 2011 when I started there were probably a handful of ultra runners in the whole world that were actually sponsored and professional like literally professional not ambassadors not you know I'm a pro but then you know I get $500 a year you know what I mean it's like yeah that's not being a pro. That's just like getting some dimes here and there from the sponsors. Now there are athletes that actually make a good living some that are actually making very good money and a lot of runners that are actually able to live off of it. Maybe not in a very you know luxurious way but the moment that you wake up and you can commit to your craft 247 that's already a blessing. So um and that builds the the sport in a way that the and you can see it in the in the race times in the records being broken that builds the potential um because people are fully committed to it. You know when you need to work a nine to five and you need to carve the time for training you only dedicated up to a certain amount of hours per week but when you are fully committed to it you can train properly you can recover properly you do all the things the right way so uh inevitably the sport evolves um the the cons the things that I don't necessarily like is the fact that um when I first started in the sport I was fascinated by this sense of uh underground feeling of doing something crazy doing something you know out of the box something like that most people wouldn't even understand people don't even didn't even know about these things I mean I like myself at I only discovered the spore at the end of 2010 so we're talking about you know just over 15 years ago and uh and that at the very beginning is what fueled my my my curiosity and my desire to enter this spore and see what it was about so there has been an evolution also in terms of motivation for me because of course you know at the beginning it was like oh who knows if I can actually run a 50 miler or a hundred miler and then you know now pretty much everybody does it you know what I mean I I I know exactly what you mean I I started running when I was uh I'm in my early 40s I I started running when I was in my sort of late teens early 20s and I remember I remember hearing about like my I always ran races right 10Ks 15k and hearing about ultras was like it it seemed like this mythical sort of event you know uh you know run through the Amazon for two days

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Or something like that. They had that race, right? Like so it was definitely not part of like the common vernacular, the mainstream vernacular of running, right? Yeah. And as and as I've um as I've ran more, and then you know, I started my podcast a long time ago, and we do some other things and talking to runners, you just see like the explosion of of the sport and just and the attention and the money that's being generated by a lot of the companies. So there's a lot of different ways that I can that I can go, but I think your position kind of um in an in an interesting way that you could that you could comment on this. Yeah, you know, there's um I saw some, you know, the Black Canyon Ultras, right? Like a lot of money, a lot of sponsored athletes, and like you said, sponsored athletes are are making more money now. Um, you know, what are the sponsors going to want to see? Race results, or do they want to see more adventures? But then I saw that they were crowdfunding for prize money, or something like Western States and has no prize money, or I was looking at, you know, look look at what UTMV has become and what it is becoming, right? And in the first place, you know, you think about the money that's being generated, is that trickling down to just a small, small, you know, um cachet of runners, or is it being disseminated a little bit more a little bit more widely, right? Um where do you think where do where do you think the power lies now and in the future? The race directors, the sponsors, the companies, the the athletes themselves. Who is going to sort of um shape or drive the narrative going forward with trail running, let's say, in the next three to five years?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Uh well, there are definitely some race directors that are thriving, um without making names, but definitely some being able to create that base and community and thrive. Um, but of course the power is all in the hands of the sponsors because even today, as you said, as we said, um more athletes are able to live off of the passion and being dedicated to the craft. And, you know, it's not just a few. Uh some are making more than others, but you know, when it comes down to the actual contracts, I know for a fact that even some of the very best, you know, they're not making bank, if you understand what I mean, you know, and and you know, we're not, of course, we cannot compare ultra-running contracts, we're running contracts to NBA or you know, NFL or whatever. But, you know, when you are a pro and you know, speaking numbers and you're making 50 grand a year, you know, yeah, you're a pro, but you know, in the US, you're kind of scratching the, you know, you're scratching for living. That's the truth. Unfortunately, the cost of living in the US when you're making 50 grand a year and you're traveling and you're training three, four, five hours a day or more, and all of your life is involved in, you know, recovery, nutrition, taking care of your body, massages, therapies, whatever, you know, you're probably lucky if you break even at the end of the day. And so, you know, that's why you see such a, you know, I'm not talking, of course, about Killian or Jim Wandsley or people like this, but but the majority of all the people that come in and out of the community or coming out of the of the main scene, let's say this, um, there's a fast turnover because, you know, the dedication is not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

So if it's not fueled by the passion, you know, you're like, yeah, I'm training 25, 30 hours a week, and then at the end of the day, at the end of the year, I have zero dollars in my savings. Wait a minute. I probably better get a job at McDonald's and probably make more money than that, you know, and just run for fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah, it's it's funny now. Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Now I'm making it, yeah, I'm making an exaggeration, you know, it's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. It's like it's not worth the the effort, it's not worth the the struggle because in many ways it is a very detrimental type of uh sport. You know, you are pushing your body to limits that just about 10, 15 years ago were unimaginable unimaginable. And so, you know, when you go and you push that limit a year or two or three, and then at the end of the day you're left with nothing, you know, that a lot of people comes down to okay, what am I doing with my life and where am I gonna see myself in five years' time? Because, you know, you need to be to think about the fact that not only it is hard, but you know, it's something not only it's hard right now, but it's not sustainable in the long run. You know, you're not gonna be able to be um on top of your game and competitive for five, ten, fifteen, or twenty years. And so, you know, when the game is done, what are you left with? Coaching online? Good luck with that. You know, yeah, you know what, honestly. I mean, I'm being honest here, you know, I'm being honest because I've been I've been in it.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yeah, it no, the your your honesty just rings through, and you're saying a lot of things that I've I've been thinking about, and when I start to piece together all the conversations I have with athletes, right? You you get to this point where you know the athletes you mentioned are that's the 0.001% of the runners, and they have excuse me, they've been doing it for a long time and have diversified how they can make money. It's not just through running, you know? So then everybody, and then if there is more sponsorship and there is more money funneling down, that carrot exists there that maybe wasn't there before. It creates this, it creates this funneling effect of all these athletes. You're right, they're pushing themselves more. This competition. I I'm afraid in some of the conversation I've had, the camaraderie will always be there, but perhaps you get less of it as everybody tries to get that sponsorship and and sort of run you know run up the ladder.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And everybody's fighting for that carrot.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

For sure. And and many, you know, you have to uh you you have to love what you're doing. And I know there's other races like the you know, seven marathons on seven continents in seven days that liked it, and there's the Barclay marathons, but you know, these people are like you said, you know, working jobs and doing this, right? To be a professional, to be paid for, and to be compensated well is still that elusive piece that only a few have been able to, even though the sport, you know, it continually grows horizontally. So I can, you know, I find it to be fascinating. My own opinion is that um getting eyeballs on on internet screw, you know, internet TV, like TVs, phones to watch the sport is something that is enough that needs to be cracked um to watch somebody run for 10, 12 hours. How do you how do you repurpose, repackage that so that someone can can enjoy that?

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Kind of exciting, of course.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Well, exactly. Something that I'm sure I'm not the only person that's thought about, but um, okay, I could talk to you all day, but I I can't likewise. Yeah, no, no, this is this is fantastic, Michelle. I literally could talk to you all day, but um I want to I want to bring it down to something maybe not exciting, but well, I think it is exciting, but we have a running scared media question, right? So running scared is I think the idea of the unknown, the fear, everything that kind of propels us to want to do something that is out of our comfort zone. So I want I'm I'm curious in all your in all your um experiences in life and running, what is your running scared moment? Is there a time when you've been genuinely scared, fearful? A time when you know anxiety is has overridden and you weren't sure you were gonna be able to go through it, make it, a point where you were lost in the middle of the night in the desert. Is there something that you can point to is really a moment that you had to dig down deep to get through?

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Um there are countless uh coming that can start, they can spend from uh hallucinations that fell scarely real and uh felt like running away from packs of wolves in my first hundred mile or two, um not knowing where to find shelter, being charged by a wild pack of horses crossing the Gobi Desert. But the most uh the most um I don't want to call it scary, but the most uh uh intense moment that I lived so far that I can think of is the encounter with a pack of wolves. Uh well it was actually one-on-one, but there were others close by. I had a one-on-one encounter with uh an Arctic wolf when I ran the Yukon.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Um in the middle of the well, can't say in the middle of the night because it was like a 20 22 hours of darkness up there in the winter, but you know, in the hours of the night, I I was running alone for already over 15 hours, and um I, you know, just feeling the cracks of the snow and looking at the whole world in the beam of light coming from the front, you know, from the headlamp. I see these two shadows running through right in front of me, and then this third one comes through and he actually stops dead right in front of me, and there's this gigantic uh Arctic wolf. The eyes were like they were like yellow from the headlamp, just looking at me, and I just stopped in my tracks. The sled that I was carrying hits me in my heels, and there's this moment that, you know, just like I would say seconds that in a moment felt like an eternity, and we just looked at each other. I, you know, I was like, I have a little Swiss knife in my pack, but I'm like, what am I gonna do with the giant wolf in front of me? So I just said, I just stood there. I raised my hands, not in a threatening way, but in a in almost like in a in a respectful and not threatening way. Um, and I just spoke to it. I just spoke to it in a very calm and uh respect. I keep saying respectful because it was such a profound experience in that moment with my what I would call my spirit animal. And I was just like, I am not here to interfere. I am just here, you know, you just go on on your on your way and I just continue on my path. And it almost looked like the wolf understood me. And it just, without saying anything, he just kept running. And uh the next 5k, I think I broke the world record, but I just started, I was about 130, 140k into the race, but I think that 20k on the snow carrying the sled, I ran it sub 20 minutes for sure. Oh my god, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Were you alone?

SPEAKER_00 55:43

What's that?

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Were you were you alone?

SPEAKER_00 55:46

I was alone already uh for probably a good uh 12, 13, 14 hours because I you know it's a type of race where you are self-supported, so there was no checkpoints, and after about 20, 25k into the race, I just found myself alone in the front, and so from that point on, I did not see anybody until the 20th hour when I finished the race in Brayburn, where was the finish line? So in the middle of that, uh on that stretch, that encounter was just like so powerful, can say scary, but definitely profound.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

You may not say scary, but I I will. Oh no, no, yeah. That that is it could have gone wrong for sure. Yeah, that's an incre that's an incredible story. I was out with a walk in a uh you know on a trail system with my kids last week, and we came across like seven or eight deer out of nowhere, and it scared the shit out of me. So imagine a wolf. Oh my goodness. It makes me think of the movie The Grey with Liam Neeson, right? Where's the channel? And that's okay, I get it. That's a Hollywood film. I completely understand. But you know, I've not been up to the Yukon, but I've been up in uh I'm in Ontario, right? It goes it goes up to the Arctic Circle, right, Churchill, and I've been up pretty far north doing some tree planting, and I had a similar encounter with a bear, but I I know what you mean where um you have an encounter with an animal and really it's it's monumental because there's nothing around. Like I can, you know what I mean? When I had this, there was nobody around, there was nothing around, and you're having this encounter, and there's it's just it's just you and it, and and that is and that is all. But I'm glad.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

And that puts you that strips you naked. Oh, absolutely. You're like, okay, there's nowhere I can hide. No, it's you and I.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Oh, that's that's a great way to it's very primal.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Very, very good.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Yeah, no, of course. That's a it's a great way to kind of finish the conversation. I just um I gotta thank you for your time today. I normally we take 30, 40 minutes, but it's been over like over an hour, so I really appreciate it. Um, I'm curious. You you've got uh wow, like um an incredible catalog, right? I think of a musician that's had these great albums, you know. You're like this person that's had really some interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting things that have happened in life and and so um uh in tune with them and and how that informs you going forward. What is what is next for you? Like what is what is a future goal? What's what what are you doing in the next couple of years?

SPEAKER_00 58:27

So I give you like a little uh pre to that, which is well very briefly, because I know we've been going long, but it's okay. Um I actually uh since 2021, 2022, I I had a lot of uh transitions and challenges and changes in my life that kind of disrupt me to and kind of broke me down on a personal, mental, and emotional level. That's why I really wasn't able to get any results or commit to anything uh in these past few years. At the end of 2024, following this, kind of feeling like I was scratching the bottom of the barrel, I close all my contracts. And in 2025, I actually kind of took a sabbatical. I decided not to run. And uh um I was like, I need to kind of reset to recenter, recharge, and see what's next. And uh at the end of the summer, it's almost like the spark was ignited again, and I decided to get back on the saddle. Uh I am fully, I'm back in training, fully, fully committed. And the only reason I'm back in training is because um I have almost like a unfinished business with one specific race, and that race is the Tour de Jean, uh which is the hardest ultra trail in the world. It's about a 220-mile with 80,000 feet of climbing, 29,000 meters. So we're talking about 350k race uh in the heart of the Alps, starting and finishing Kurmayer at the end of the summer. So it's about two weeks after UTMB. Okay, and uh uh my only focus. I am of course gonna do some races here and there over the summer, but over the spring and summer, but that's my ultimate goal. Is it and then I and then we'll see what happens after that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Okay, okay. That's it. No, that's a great goal. Are you looking to are you looking just to finish it or do you looking to try and win it?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Um let's just say I'm going there to do my best. Okay, yeah, and we'll see what happens. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Okay, so an incredible story. And you have been just uh before we get out of here, you've been gracious enough. We're gonna do a little bit of a draw or a giveaway for uh for your book for one of the listeners. So I really appreciate that. That's um that's fantastic. So thank you. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

It's it's been such a pleasure, and I feel like the conversation just flowed when you know when you connect and speak the same language.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Amazing, Michelle. Thank you so much. Listen from everybody at Running Scared Media. Um, amazing. Good luck. Uh, we always keep in contact with the people that we have onto the show if it's a message here, if it's just like a quick little, you know, good luck for uh for the race that's upcoming, but all the best in the training and we'll uh we'll reach out to you and check in in a little while, okay? So have a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Thank you so much. All the best to everyone.