Running Buddies featuring Jacob Puzey pt. 2

The conversation continues....

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I you know no, that makes complete sense to me. Some of my earliest running that I did was on a treadmill just because like I wanted it's I'm going back a long way, but I wanted to kind of get in shape and we had a treadmill and my you know uh had someone very close to me pass away and then our family was trying to get healthier and make some, you know, we were smokers, and then we changed that and we got to put a treadmill in the house and everything really changed, but that's what I had to run with. And I it makes complete sense to me because I would just go in there and like I would just switch off and just be able to just run. And I'd look at it and be like 75 minutes and you know, I found it easy. So I I listen, 50 miles is 50 miles, no matter what it is.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah, but if you get it done faster than like why why prolong it, you know? Like the only reason in my mind, the only reason to prolong 50 miles is if you're in a beautiful place and you want to soak it all in. Yeah, that's that's also kind of why I gravitated towards like trail ultras when I was teaching was I was teaching and coaching. So I think during cross country season, I was on the I was on the road every single weekend, if not twice a week, like on a school bus for you know six to ten hours a day um to go to these meets. And so like my only time to to run or race or was on on the weekends. So I jump into these ultras like at the day after a track beat or a cross country meet, and uh and and I could go and do these through hikes, essentially, like that that some people would do as a backpacking trip for like three to five days, and I could knock it out on a Sunday and then be back to work on Monday. And and it was supported. And so that's that's kind of why I started doing ultras, wasn't so much even for the competitive side of things. It was like, this is sweet. I live in a beautiful place.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I'd I'd like to use my fitness to take me to explore some of these places, but I don't have time to do it. I don't have, I can't take a week. Like I actually didn't even run Boston until after I retired from teaching because I couldn't take a personal day to, I couldn't miss the Monday to fly there and then fly back all the way across the country. Yeah. And so like I had to wait until I wasn't teaching anymore to be able to run the Boston Marathon.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So there's a great I think you put you posted it a while ago, or I saw it online. It's a I I don't know if you're dead tired or if you're just enjoying the surroundings, but a picture of you lying in a in a in a puddle with your brother. I think it's the Black Canyons or or it's I I or maybe Western states, or maybe you're qualifying for or trying to quality for Western. I don't know. But it's just like it's really good. Like the scenery in the background, it's it makes you know, it made me think of like when you're talking about you know getting out. And I I think that's a really good point is you know what it is addictive, a lot of the ultra running and the trail running, but you're just out in such beautiful spaces. Like I we'll get into it later. I'm I'm running some events, some of your events this year, but I I've added some other ones and I just have kind of packed my calendar just to get out in nature. But anyways, the your puddle that you lied in, yeah. I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, so that was a black canyon. That was the second year of the event. It was the first year it was a golden ticket race. Yeah, and um there was a group of us that went out really hard, but uh um I'd been living in Arizona in Flagstaff at the time, going to grad school there at Northern Arizona University. And uh, so I dropped down to run Black Canyon, and I actually like led the first 55k, like PR'd because it's like a net downhill for 50K and was like, all right, here we go. And then I just blacked out as I was cresting a hill. Um and uh bear hugged a Somoral cactus and then like came into the main eight station where everyone drops, and it was like, well, like both my bones are still like nothing's sticking out of my body. I'm covered in blood, and I've got pine or I've got uh uh cacti uh needles all over me, but I'm still like in one piece. So I got to that eight station, my brother was there with his family, and I just looked at him and he was in flip-flops. I was like, hey man, uh I was still in second place at the time, even after blacking out. And I was like, Will you just will you just walk with me for a little bit and like help get me get some food and in? And so we basically just got to do I've run I've run the Black Danyon 100k twice, and I've basically done the same thing twice, where my brother has like dragged me to the finish, um, like you know, just barely able to walk. But I've gone for it, and you know, that those were the few times that I I went for it and tried to win a ticket, and that's what I felt would work to my advantage. But uh it was just hard to train in the snow in Flagstaff and then drop down to the desert. And it was a really hot day. It was probably, I mean, it was over 90 that day Fahrenheit, so you know, over 30 degrees. Uh so it was it was a hot day, and I just blew up. But he he patiently, you know, just walked with me and crumpled up chips in a ziploc bag and like fed me like a mama bird. Just made sure he was just like pouring it in my my mouth. So yeah, we had a good time. And and that was his idea. He was like, dude, you need to lay down and there's like no water out here, but there's this little puddle you need to cool off because you're you're just covered with salt and stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

That's a great story. Sorry. That was gonna be that would have been a running scared story, but um like that's a while ago. I think you know, the runners I speak to, you have a unique perspective. Like, can you comment on just how you like you think about that experience and think about how long ago that was and to what it is now? You know, you hear a lot about trail running exploding, ultras just becoming so popular. How how have you seen that? Like, do you see that as like a a natural progression, or has there been one kind of inciting incident that has has made it become so popular? Because I I'll be honest with you, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when I was running, ultras were like this mythical thing that like you would you run 300k through the Amazon, like it was just so niche and and just off on the periphery, and now it feels so mainstream. So how how have you kind of seen that? Um kind of like a like a high level. How have you seen that that change and what do you think is behind it?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Um, I think a big piece is social media. And I mean, if I if I'm being honest, like for better or worse, I uh I hit the lottery. I wasn't good in high school, like I relatively speaking. I uh I I grew up in Oregon. I never qualified for the Oregon State track meet or cross-country or one time qualified for the cross-country state championship, got 26th place in grade 12. Um uh with like a 16 something 5k on grass, you know, like so it wasn't like I was super slow, but like 10 of the best guys in the country were also ahead of me. And so that wasn't gonna happen. I was I was young, I was very underdeveloped. Um so slow in high school, slow in college, uh, relatively speaking, like in terms of what my competition was doing. Yeah, I honestly didn't even think I'd be able to run post-collegiate lead, aside from just doing it for fun, because that's all anyone I'd ever known had done, including people who ran in university. And so it's like, okay, well, you know, I'm gonna move on with my life, and this will just be part of like my lifestyle. And uh all of a sudden I like I I'd run a couple of marathons and I'd run fairly well. And and then there were all of a sudden opportunities to like, I think Brooks was probably the first in the game of like the grassroots like influencer programs. So I gotta deal with Brooks, I gotta deal with power bar, like that's how old I am. Um and uh and so like very early on, I got to be part of these like influencer teams. Yeah. And uh and they actually supported us quite well and um in terms of gear, but even payment. But then after a few years, they started saying, uh not how close are you to the Olympic trials qualifying time, or what are your goals, or it was like, how many eyes are you in front of? So it didn't matter if I like I was the I was actually getting slower on the roads, but they were like, hey, you've got this race series. You can be in front of this many eyes if you're wearing our product. We'll give you this amount to be uh to sponsor your races, or hey, you but actually the biggest question was how many followers do you have on this thing called Facebook and Twitter and YouTube? And I was like, What? I live in a like a one-horse town. I don't, I don't interact with anyone outside of my town, you know, other than when I bring my kids to cross-country meets. And so I had to create uh those accounts and start building a following. So it was really kind of a perfect storm for me. And that's that's individually. Um as a sport, I think it's the same thing. That's that's essentially what's happened is enough people have gotten GoPros and now the drones and all the other stuff that they that they run with. And so it's becoming more ubiquitous. And then from what I've seen, even in the last like five, six years, a lot of people learned that being outdoors was was actually quite nice. Like during the pandemic, when you were forced to be inside, and I would say argue even more so in Canada. Like those 14-day quarantines were not nice, like that was hell, and and that's not a knock on the government or whatever. And it just that was not a healthy time for anyone. No, and and so I think um, I mean, it's honestly partially why I moved from where I lived in Canmore during that time. And it was like everyone from Calgary was coming to Canmore, and it's like, I can't even go out on the trails now without being like these negative altercations with people swinging hockey sticks for getting too close to them just for going on a run on trails. And so it's like, all right, I gotta get away from people. This is madness. And uh, but I do think during that time, from from what I'm hearing from park managers and and even a lot of the venues where we once hosted events, we're not allowed to host events in a lot of places anymore because park use and visitors uh numbers went up so high so much during the pandemic and they haven't gone down. So I mean, that's a net positive for for society, but it also crowds out start lines and makes races sell out a lot faster, too.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Oh, that's a that's a really good point. And you kind of just took me where I wanted to go with the race direction. But I think, you know, even some of the things we we're a little bit more than a podcast here, it's you know, not to get into it, but it it's it's really just distilled down to any conversations that I'm having with anybody, it's like, what's the audience size? You know what I mean? Like honestly, and and we don't need to say any names or it, but that's really what it comes down to is that what is the audience size? So in that sense, um, I think sometimes you know that they've got a bottom line that they've got a report to, and I and I get it, but it it it it kind of crowds out like you talked about like Brooks and Powerbar, like that grassroots kind of um you know, upswell of of kind of organic growth, right? Sometimes feels like I have a friend who's in uh band management, you know, there's just less and less space for that organic um belief, like uh development, right? Uh of the athlete. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. I'm just saying of uh development of the athlete or development of the business or development of the race series or development of whatever it wants to be. And I I that's not that's not localized to trail running. That's just that's just everything in kind of like the business environment that we um that that we work in but or live in now. So it can be it can be interesting. But sorry, you were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Oh, I was just gonna say, like, even even with like online coaching, like I I worked for one of the first and probably most successful online coaches out there, Greg McMillan. That's part of how I was able to move to Flagstaff, was he offered me like a a salaried position to just coach a certain number of people that all came to him because he had this platform. And so I learned how to do it at scale. And uh, but I would I I couldn't do it now. Like so many people are expecting way much more for way and pay way less because the alternative is they can do it for free on some AI app or do it for a very small subscription. And it's like my I do think I have like credentials and I and I could provide feedback, but but it's not valued anymore because it's so ubiquitous. And pretty much anyone who runs and wants to have a little side gig has a little coaching business on the side.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

It's very it's very saturated, you know? Oh yeah, like it's all it's all you see. I actually had a I had a really good conversation with Michelle Gralia and and he was talking uh about that, you know what I mean? He comes from a different space in Italy and he was doing other things, but um just all the uh the upswell of coaching and and just like you know trying to trying to get a little piece. I don't want to speak for him, but well, it's on the podcast if you want to listen to it. But um but but that's interesting. So okay, I'm gonna shift over into uh into uh race direction. And you know, you run five peaks and you have this going since 1998. Correct me if I'm wrong. You've had so you know, you've been it's you know, I'm I'm piecing together a narrative of you've been able, like you said, you the lottery ticket, you've been able to get on the ground floor in a lot of these a lot of these uh spaces, a lot of these things that you've done. So uh race direction now, you know, you talked about a lot of people rediscovering after the pandemic um you know nature and how nice it is and the crowding in the national parks. And I, you know, I I was listening to a race director, uh Centurion, does um uh UK races. Anyways, we're talking about the economics of race direction. I think you know, for our audience, we'll well, even though it's global, um we're talking about in Canada here. So what like currently right now, it's 2026, coming into the summer, what are the economics of race direction now? Is this, you know, with the popularity of people getting into running and people getting into trail running? Are we finding that there are more and more people coming to these events? Or is it sort of what you said now everyone just has a camera and you're just getting a whole bunch of likes and an audience size from a very vast array of people, not necessarily the runners you want to bring? Like um, if you know if you kind of see where I'm going with the question, is are we seeing that that that uh increase of you know becoming more popular? Is that turning into you having bigger events, selling out more, being able to add ons, you know, doing lots more business? How does that look now?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Yeah, um I I guess from a macro level, I would say yes, the sport is growing um in popularity and also in in terms of the number of events. I think people do events and they they run the numbers that are not visible and they're like, wow, if I can do, if I can charge X amount and bring X number of people, that's gonna be like that's gonna be a pretty good margin. And so I honestly I think a lot of people think that there's there's a there's profit to be made in the space. And I think there is for a handful of people. And I uh sadly, I think it's it's similar to how a lot of the rest of things work uh economically, where those that are at the top will continue to grow because they have the means, they have the capital to invest to grow. Um, but at the same time, it is gonna kind of push out the little man or the mom and pop or like the local uh run, especially if it's if it's just intended to be like a community building thing. It's not it's not meant to be someone's job or retirement plan, or but if it's like a charity run or whatever, I think those ones aren't being as impacted, but they they still are. But I do think uh I would say that the the event space is super crowded. The area that you're in is the most saturated part of North America in terms of races um in all of North America. So Toronto, Chicago have more races per capita and per weekend than any other well, any other place in North America. And so we we actually have seen number that used to be our largest participation area in Canada, in large part because of the population base. And then what's happened is yes, it's a very vast area, so there have been other races that have popped up more, I wouldn't even say regionally, but in the suburbs uh that pulls from from our other events. And that um, and that's not I'm not complaining, that's that's just part of the deal. That's what's what we sign up for when we agree to be part of a free market. But um, yeah, it does complicate things um because the reality is the costs of everything have increased as well, too. And in order to make um events even viable, there is like that break-even price. And and so you have to have a certain number of participants just to cover the hard costs of the venue fee, the toilets, the medical, the uh, you know, just just some of those costs that some of them are based on a per person or per participant basis, but some of them are just flat fees. And so there is like a a threshold that you have to reach just in order to cover the the basic costs of hosting an event and the insurance, the liability insurance, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So all the yeah, no, no, no. It it's it it makes a lot of sense. I I was doing a quick little search and I was looking at the Ontario race calendar, and like I could not believe the number of events, but not only the number of kind of singular events, like I did a trailer race in in Guelph, you know, a few years ago. It was a one-off, but now there are um, you know, not not to name, but we you know, we got a Western States qualifier that's just you know down the street from where I live basically. And there's another race, there's another kind of race series that's put like 12 races and and like 40% of those races in that one conservation area. And it's funny, like I I used to run there, or I still run there all the time, and I noticed, especially the last few years, how they're flagged off. Like you talked about crowding on the trails. I'm like, what are these people doing here? This used to be like a very quiet space to go and run. So, you know, you're saying it. I I'm seeing it. Like Southern Ontario has eight, nine, ten million people here, okay? But uh we have the escarpment, we have all these beautiful conservation areas. Um, but there's just like a ton of races that are that people can go and and the price points are are not are not like low, you know. Oh, yeah. Sorry, go on.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Well, I I what I was gonna say is we I was actually meeting with my Ontario race directors this morning, and we were talking about the venue fees and medical fees. But like we we try to produce the same type of event, the same type of environment, the same type of feeling. Obviously, we can't change the topography, but like it's the same vibe. But our hard costs, it it costs at least $10,000 more to put on a race in Ontario. Our our intro to trail running events, just the venue fees alone costs venue fees in medical $10,000 to $12,000, just off the top, like just before you get started. Um my goodness, yeah. And and some of our venues in other parts of Canada don't cost like they're they're hundreds of dollars. I the the cost of everything, like everyone's in a shortfall after the pandemic, and all the provinces are finding ways to tax people. And I like I said, we we we're beneficiaries, so I can't complain, but like the the permits have have increased in Alberta and BC, but but by far the most expensive venues in Canada are in the GTA. But that the if you're talking about the Bruce Trail or the um some of these other areas, it the part of the reason may be that they just don't charge as much. And so so you can you can put on the same type of event and and save eight to ten thousand bucks or you know, even five thousand bucks, and then it's like, oh cool, we actually have a budget to to market the next event and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

So yeah, I I actually live on the Bruce Trail. I'm just I can go out in my backyard, and yeah, that's that's where I apply my trade on the radio. Yeah, no, I love it. It's like technical single track, it's awesome. But okay, so five peaks, your philosophy. You've you've decided not to go um like ultra. You're you're not going 50 milers. I'm I'm running a couple of your grits, and the one I'm running in June 6th is coming in at 18k, and then you've got another one for 22, but you also have a kid's fun run, which I'm bringing the family out actually, to to both of them, which is which is going to be fantastic. And then you've got a I think you've got a 5k, you've got an enduro. So what's the logic and the thinking behind that that kind of that sweet space where you're offering like that five to ten and the kids fun run, but you're you're get you're given something a little bit more, but you're not you're not in the ultra space. What's the thinking behind that, the strategy?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Um when Five Peaks started, there really was no one else in that space. There were a handful of other trail half marathons, marathons, and ultra marathons in Canada, but there really wasn't an intro to trail running. And so if you actually look around, a lot of the a lot of the race directors for ultra race. Is now started trail running doing five peaks races. Gary Robbins started trail running doing five peaks races. He he was a course manager for five peaks before he became the core, like the race director for Coast Mountain. And um and uh our former race director in Ontario, Eric Darcy, he started trail running, five peaks became the race director, and he's now putting on um a 200 miler on the roof trail. Um so like and uh um and the Caledonian crusher or whatever it's called. Um and uh so yeah, there are like but that's something that I'm that I'm proud of that like we have we've identified a need or a space or a niche that no one else at least was doing. And so it is a a place for my kids to go and enjoy running, but also uh in a safe, like non-competitive, like nothing cutthroat about it. Um, but just we're going out and having a good time and we're gonna get to be with good people and um and the emphasis isn't gonna be on you know gold, silver, or or bronze. The the emphasis is on, well, look at all these people that are smiling and pushing themselves and doing things they maybe wouldn't be able to do if they just tried to do it on their own, or or they wouldn't do it, they wouldn't train to do it if they didn't have that thing to out there on the horizon to train for. And so um it really is meant to be like an intro to trail running. We have hiking groups where people can go and do our sport or enduro courses and start an hour early, not to get home and start mowing the lawn earlier, but so you can actually finish when the runners are finishing. But but it's it's intended so that people who may not feel safe even in their own urban trails by themselves, they have a group to hike with and they have eight stations on course and they have people cheering them and and they can get a memento to remember it by that was my next question.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Just you know, take us through the five peaks experience, but I think you did a nice job of doing that, right? Like community culture, uh uh you know, the the intro to trail running. Um have you ever thought about having one of your events give something a little bit more? Like if it is an intro, maybe the last event of the sea. I'm just just thinking about ideas here, but of maybe some some things that you've considered, maybe the last event um go a little bit longer, or have you kind of settled into this nice little sweet spot that you've got?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, I um I mean five peaks has has evolved, has grown, has shrunk, has has uh has overspent, has overbuilt, and and we we're currently, I think, in a really good space where we have 20 series events across the country. So five five series events in each region. Most of those events offer two kids' races and at least two distances, uh a 5k to 8k, and then like a 10 to 15k. And then, and so part of why we introduced the grit, we actually introduced that during the pandemic because we we we converted everything to virtual and just tried to keep people moving because some provinces didn't allow us to gather for two years. So it's like, all right, well, at a minimum, most provinces are allowing people to go into a retail shop. We're gonna still print bibs, you can still go into the shop, still pick up swag, you can get a bib number, you can still track it. And so we actually created a grit distance, which became kind of that 21k-ish. Um, and and that's also a space that really not many uh event series offer. Like I'm back on the West Coast, uh Gary's races, the Coast Gary and Jeff's races, Coast Mountain, uh usually start at like 23 or a little bit higher. So it's like it gives people even training for an ultra or a marathon, a distance to do as like a a supported long run or a long hard threshold or something like that. Um but then we do we do have about five kind of outlier events. We we have a um we have the the powder face mountain half marathon and marathon, which is in like the foothills of the Rockies. Um and it's in like yeah, it's between Calgary and and Canmore or Banff, just along Trans Canada off there a bit in Brad Creek. Um we also have um the stoked ultra, the soap scramble, soap climb, and trail stoke.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

That looks great. The stoked ultra looks awesome.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah, yeah. And so I would say those are our more aspirational events, and then we actually have plans in the works. We were gonna launch it this year. Um, but it's gonna be a looped 25k and 50k at one of our existing events, but in a place where it's a picturesque venue, but it also has that ability to just keep it simple, not go into anything rugged that's too scary. Um, and and and really that's that's just that's where I feel comfortable. Like I've um my parents actually grew up, or not grew up, my parents met or fell in love like on a desert survival trip. My dad used to direct survival trips uh for a university, and he needed some people and he invited my mom, I think, because he knew that if he could, if she could see him in the the one thing he was good at, which was like surviving, he could kind of you know impress her, and so he did, and she she she accepted the job, and uh and that's where they they fell in love or whatever. So I I grew up um in the backcountry and learning how to do stuff in the mountains. But as part of that, I've also I've literally been holding my friends' hands while they'd coded because they've been stung by something or they've fallen off of something. And uh I don't really want to do that. If I can avoid it, it's like if other people, if other race directors want to take on that kind of risk and and uh and I I'm gonna say it, I tempt death like it or fate. Like I just don't want to do it. So I I like to do things that I feel like I I feel very confident that I can, to the extent possible I can control the environment and and make it safe. But at the same time, like I know I'm my best self when I get a good night's sleep. And so even like when you asked about races that I do and stuff like that, I don't, I will never do another race that requires me to start in the dark or end in the dark. I I mean maybe never say never, but I I don't like not getting sleep. I I don't I'm not a pleasant person when I don't get sleep. And and even as a race director, I I want to make sure that I can show up and and have the energy that I need to have for the racers and for my team of volunteers. And and so like I I feel like 50K, maybe 80k is about the max for me as a race director. But that doesn't mean that other people with different skills and different uh comfort levels can't do other things and and more power to them. Like I'm grateful that those people are there because they've created incredible experiences for me. They're just not experiences that they're not responsibilities I want to take on for myself. Um and yeah, I mean I I've I've got scars in the nether parts of my body for you know falling on rocks and uh having sticks stick through my body. And I just don't want to uh expose people to that to do that on my watch, at least. And I and I'm a lot more hesitant to do that kind of stuff now that I am older and have kids, and I have more reason to live than to die right now. So I'm not I'm not looking for reasons to to challenge um like to tempt fate in that respect.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

So no, I I I know what you're saying, um, you know, kind of like sleeping in your own bed and not having to deal with, especially as a race director, like the medical, but also like the mountain rescue. I know listening to some podcasts where they talk about urea and the the long events or bad water and having to deal with all those like extreme, extreme events, extreme heat, they're dangerous. Um this is yeah, this is honestly, this is this is what I was kind of drawn to five peaks, um, and why I'm so excited to try them is that I just think it's it's a nice sweet spot. Like I I did the ATB um uh the around the bay 15k. And I actually did quite yeah, I did quite well. Actually, I finished 72nd out of 1500 people. Yeah, that's a huge race. Right. You know what? That's not the 30k, but like I'm not some elite athlete, but you know, I I've I've ran for a while and I got a bit better. But then the June 6th is the 18, and then I want to finish off my race season, or at least the summer one with the September one. Um at I don't know if it's Crawford Lake, which it's one of them, and it's 22k, which is perfect, which I'm I'm excited about. But I wanted to get I want to ask you one last thing. So I've I finished I finished the A T B I and I understand it's April. So I go through and I and I'm very excited. I I ran with a bunch of a bunch of friends and I get my medal, and then it's like that's it. Is there an opportunity for like would people stick around for entertainment afterwards, or is that just another cost or um that's that's not gonna be sustainable? Like, is that a is that a realistic value add? I'm not saying there needs to be a band playing, but I know some will do food, but I literally like and it's a huge race. Like there's 1500 in the 15k, there's like 4,000 that run the 30. It's a huge race, right? Older than Boston. And I found that it was just kind of finishes and there's nothing there.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah. So this is something that I've observed. And again, I studied anthropology, so this is not a criticism, but it is a difference that I've that I've recognized just between Canada and the US.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Um, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Um in Canada, I I I would say people are accustomed to s to paying less and expecting more. And I'm not like that's that just I've been raised, I've race directed in both countries and I've run races around the world. That's interesting. And um, and from my experience, both on the customer service side of things, but also just when people comment on on cost and value and things like that, I think people are expecting you to almost get more value than what they pay for. And again, this isn't me trying to like break it down into a pie graph and say, you're actually getting more than what you paid for, but but in most cases, that's what I aim for with Pi Peaks. And even when I do that, I still I still have people asking, well, is this included? Or let's like we we even for like our you know, our kids' races are 7K, our 14k, or 21k, our our post-race food is usually better than any big city marathons I've done in terms of like the what's at the finish line. And still we have people, you know, who've literally their kids ran a free race, and the kids are going back for like thirds and fourths, my kids included. So I don't know, just like uh your kid just ate 10 bucks worth of food and got a ribbon that cost us a buck, you know? So it's like that was like 11 buck loss on a free kids race per kid, which again, I'm not I'm not complaining. It's a it they're meant to kind of be like a lost leader and more of just uh make it a family event and make it a family event, exactly, and make it safe and fun for kids. And so I'm not complaining there, but the number of like I I sometimes have to look at parents and just be like, look, man, I get it. Like being a parent's expensive, kids' stuff is expensive, but it's like if your kids signed up for hockey or dance, yeah, an LTS. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's like, why is there this expectation that like not only do you get this free event, but you get all this other stuff? Um, with trail races in the US, and I think it maybe goes back to the question that you're asking about the events and the businesses that are growing in the US, like there's an inside joke, like that Ara Vipa and Jamil Curry are like taking over the world. And it's the truth. Like he is buying up every single race company uh in America. Uh and he's brilliant. Like, you know, he's uh he's an accountant by trade, his brother's a uh computer programmer. They do a lot in-house and they found ways to like rather than paying someone else to create their medals, create their t-shirts, create post-race pizza, they create a business and pay that business for the post-race pizza for all these other things. But then they actually they charge for a slice of pizza at the end. You run a hundred bucks or you run a hundred miler that you pay 400 US for? So let's say roughly 600 Canadian or 550 Canadian, you're still gonna pay like 10 bucks for a piece of pizza and 10 bucks for a beer. And and that's the norm. Like you're just like, yep, you're gonna do that. And and his races sell out and no one bats an eye.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Uh why why is that though? Why is that though? Because if if somebody, if I just finish the ATB, like is that more of a sort of like uh the power of the community, the the or the power of capitalism, or just the fact that you just you just spent yourself and you're just like take my money, it doesn't even matter anymore.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

I I think it I think psychologically it's two things. And again, I'm not a psychologist, but um in my experience, when I've when I've even offered like free orientation runs or um free film screenings, you'll get like you'll have a Facebook event and it says it's sold out and stuff like that, and then five people show up and you've got capacity for 50. And so I honestly think sometimes it's when people feel like they have skin in the game, like they've actually put money in, there's a transaction that occurs. It's like, okay, I need to go get my money's worth. But I think the difference is I think races, old school races used to kind of be like a they they were they were pretty low-key and not any, you know, they didn't have any live streaming or any of that, but they there was still usually like a decent meal, or you get handed beer at the end of an ultra or whatever, and and now and maybe have like a post-race chili or something like that. But but I think part of it is it is an additional cost, and sometimes you end up leaving with like you certainly don't want to end up with too little food, but and I have no problem donating our leftover food and stuff like that. But sometimes we're leaving with hundreds of dollars worth of food, and then we and then we change what we do, if not more, um, or giving it away, which again I'm fine doing at to the local uh food bank or sending it home with parents who have kids that want to put them in their lunches or whatever. Like what kid doesn't want to pickle in their lunch, you know? Um and so, you know, I think sometimes we're able to do that, but um so I think I think the dollar amount actually is helpful with knowing that like what to plan for, because a lot of people like it's hit or miss who's gonna show up and eat the chili, who's gonna show up and eat five bowls of chili, and who's gonna show up and not eat any chili because they have an allergy to it, or you know, and so I think to a certain extent it can, it really can be a a very big expense. The event that we used to put on in rebel or that we do put it on in rebel suck, it used to be like an even bougier experience, and we'd eat at the lodge and these catered meals. Our cost was almost $50 per per meal, and it was a buffet, but it was like, you know, and then some people wouldn't even show up, but we still have to pay for it. And it's pretty hard to tell people, hey, this race costs this much because $150 out of this or $250 when it was a five-day race in the national park goes directly to like it's not our cost, it's it's the cost that's passed on to us to offer these meals. And so I I think it does have to be, in my experience, the only way to actually like predict it and to cover the cost is to actually make sure people know that that whether it's a meal, whether it's a band, um that that stuff gets to be out of control and it's and it's actually possible to like impossible to like take it away and lose the there's a rave after no, but for real, like um like I've heard of races where like Lulu was once a sponsor or whatever, and they offered shirts for everyone, and they still do that for some races, but like people paid this, you know, to get this amazing experience, and then all of a sudden they lost Lulu as a as a sponsor, and people are like, Well, I don't want to do it anymore. It's like you're still getting you're still getting a shirt, it's just your shirt isn't worth or it hasn't retail for 10 times more than what you pay for the race, you know. Like it's still a cool race, though. And so sometimes people really do do it for the stuff or the and but but uh in my experience, a lot of people push back when when you start charging for those things, and it's like I don't think you understand. Like a sponsor didn't give us these shirts, we're still paying, usually we're paying cost or or wholesale or even sometimes for nutrition, like uh, and that's yeah, like a lot of times a nutrition brand will be like, hey, we'll provide all the product, we'll even throw in some cash for marketing, and then after you announce a sponsorship, you say it's gonna be on course, then they pull back and they're like, actually, never mind, can you pay 40% retail for us to have those gels on course? And it's like, serious, no, like that wasn't the deal. And so it does it, it does cost um, it costs us money. And so, as much as I've been the guy that's like stock up at every eight station so that I have so that I have gels to train with for the next couple years um as a race director, I'm like, huh. Unless this is like a huge race that that this brand sees as like a major investment, these race directors are likely paying for this, which means this is increasing the cost for me but everyone else, and and it's cutting down on the not just the profit, but the viability of this event going forward. Like it's it's gonna increase the price if we keep if we keep taking more than we need at the races.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

We're honestly we're just gonna have to do a part two on this interview because uh, you know, I I really appreciate uh the time, but also just the time you've been in the space because the perspective that you're bringing, and I've learned a lot over the last years of kind of tweaked and you know, bobbed and weaved with the podcast and just other things that we're doing, but it's really interesting, especially getting the the race director uh perspective, but also the runner perspective and like you know, the the you have a family perspective, and then you've seen the American and Canadian perspective, right? Like it's it's really interesting. Um I want to finish off, and I I wasn't kidding, I actually want to bring you back for a part two because there's a whole other stream of questioning that I want to get into, but like it's official. This is the longest pod we've had, longest conversation, which is which is amazing. I uh the time has just flown by. Um I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I appreciate your patience. Um I'm glad we're ending it because I just got to a hill that I I almost never run up. So I'm I'm walking up the hill now to get back to my house.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

I uh okay, so it's the perfect time. Just give me the um give me the close-up. Uh what's uh what's the future? What's the future for for yourself? What's the future for Five Peaks in the next three to five years? Uh are you looking to build? Are you in a comfortable space? Um kind of take us home with that question.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Um I think we're we're looking to try and just uh by build, like build from where we're at, like grow where we were planted. I don't think we're looking to expand in terms of new regions or too many more events. Like I said, we were gonna launch an event last year that I hope to announce before we open registration next year, but probably only one more event, and it will be more of an aspirational uh intro to ultra is kind of what it'll be. It'll follow in the same vein as as what most five feaks are. And uh and and yeah, it would be kind of like what Havelina is, you know, it's just a looped horse. And I I love that stuff. Some people hate it, but a thousand people across the world love it enough that they go there and you know drop their 550.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Uh you're right, they're so expensive.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yes, yes. So and if we can create that kind of environment in Canada, I like I I'm from the Southwest, I love the desert, but man, you can't beat some of the green spaces in Canada. Like, this is I I've run all over the world, I've raced in Patagonia, I've been part of race organizations around the world. I don't think there's a prettier country anywhere in the world. And I feel so grateful to live here and to be able to share these spaces with with people, with my family, with my friends, with my neighbors, and and basically with inviting people into what I think is just a beautiful community. I guess I guess when you asked me a while ago if I still practice religion, like this is the closest thing to to religion that I have. And it's I'm not trying to say it's a cult or anything. I don't want to offend anyone, but like I've I feel a closer connection to to other people and to the divine when I'm in nature with other good people trying to work towards a common goal. And that's if I can provide that for people, like man, I I live a very blessed life, and I feel very grateful that I get to do that. And that's I gotta call my dog back from the deer.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

That's a perfect way to end it. Um, Jacob, this has been amazing. Jacob Poozy, Five Peaks. Listen, I am running June 6th, Crawford Lake, Ontario. I'm running Albion Hill, September 5th. I cannot wait. Fivepeaks.com, check it out. Uh they're gonna be amazing. I'm gonna be posting about this and and really bringing my family to it, exactly what you talked about. I am stoked uh to to do the races and to dive into the five peaks, and hopefully uh we get a chance to to maybe meet in person, uh, not in Ontario, but uh actually we have some. We have some some people from the podcast from our company here that's going to be up at your June 6th camera race. So um they're they're they're bringing their whole family, they've got their whole crew coming up, which is good. It's gonna be amazing. So they're really excited. Thank you for doing this. Uh this has been an amazing conversation. Have a great day, and we'll stay in touch. All right, thank you. Thanks for getting me out for a run.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Otherwise, I just said behind my my laptop. And the kids will come home from school and I'd be like, man, I didn't even get a run in yet. So thank you. Try it.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

You know, we'll help where we can. Later. All right, take care. Yep.