Running Buddies featuring Kyle Broxterman

On todays show we are...climbing with Kyle Broxterman! In this unique format listeners get to experience a live climb with Kyle as he free solo's a rock face in Nevada's Calico Basin. Kyle walks us through and explains the various climbing disciplines, including bouldering, sport climbing, and traditional climbing, while offering insights into his personal philosophy on calculated risk and mental focus. He recounts a traumatic injury that reshaped his approach to safety and discusses his efforts to highlight the stories of everyday athletes through his own media projects. We dive into the spiritual and adventurous aspects of the sport, contrasting pure performance with the deep connections formed through outdoor exploration. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:27

You're listening to Running Buddies brought to you by Running Scared Media or wherever Step has a story. I'm Jamie Roberts, and this is the podcast we like to call a Jobcast. Whether it's your first time out or you're a season pro, Running Buddies find stories that are bigger than running. And today is a story that is much bigger than running in the sense that it's not a runner, it's a climber. We are having our first mountain climber on the show. Very excited. I'll get to that in a second, but uh you know it's been a while since uh since we've been on here. But first and foremost, first thing you need to do is subscribe to the podcast. It is free, it is easy to do, and it's gonna make sure that you get running buddies, that you get hybrid horizons, and so there's all the great shows uh coming to you from the Running Scared Media Network. Very excited about that. Um also a couple of like really great things that are happening. We have a new, completely refurbished and redone website, go to running scaredmedia.com, and and you'll see uh the the work that we've been doing. I think it's reflective of all the all the different uh changes that we've made and the direction that we're moving in as uh a group, so really excited about that. A lot of people were working behind the scenes to kind of get that happening. Uh, so we got the uh running scaredmedia.com website going on. We've got our email flyer newsletter uh about to about to drop, which is gonna be amazing. All these deals and uh discounts curated on one flyer. Go to runningscaredmedia.com and you can get access to it right there. You can sign up for it, let us do all the work, let us do all the heavy lifting, let us do all that uh hard stuff, and then you can just sort of benefit from having all these great brands and all these great discounts uh just coming right to your inbox. Okay, so it's gonna be there for you. Uh it's gonna be fantastic. I also want to take a second and just talk about the run that I did with with Five Peaks at Crawford Lake, and I posted a bunch about this on social media, and you know, it was like a lot harder than I thought, gonna be honest. I feel like we uh, you know, at least for me, was getting used to to running on road and and feeling really good, especially after my around the bay, uh, where I had a really good time for the 15k and I felt really strong. In fact, when I crossed the finish line, I was tired, but I felt like I could have been going a little bit longer. And uh and then I did the trail race at uh at Crawford Lake, and the community there has been amazing, and uh Jacob, the national uh director, you know, he's been supportive, and then Lisa there, the RD, has been amazing, and just the whole vibe, and my family came out and my kids ran the 3K, the timed event, they did great. But I gotta be honest, it was a big wake-up call to be on trail for I think it was on for an hour and forty-three minutes, uh just like it was a shade under 20k for the trail race. And I knew it was gonna be harder. I knew it was gonna be more challenging. But on that third loop, I was really tired. And it just wasn't something that I expected. It's it's new. I'm pushing my running in in a new way, in a new, in a new direction, just because I want to push myself and I want to see what I can accomplish. And I think a couple of things that I a couple things that I learned is I'm gonna have to prep better uh in terms of getting my miles up for the race because the road and trail is just different. I knew that, but now I know that. I'm also gonna need to look at my nutrition and look at my look at my fueling uh in terms of what I'm having before I go to the race and and what I'm having during the race. And what I had before the race is I had some on-trail nutrition, like those high-energy protein bars, um, 20 grams of protein, you know, they're really good. It's a solid option. It's like an oat-based um oat-based recipe. Uh, you know, and and I had um like three quarters of one before, and I I felt like it was it was good. I'm gonna supplement that and I think have a little bit more going forward. Uh, but they did a really they did a really good job. I think it's gonna be for me during the race and having to fuel. And I know people are out there going, what you didn't fuel, like you need to do that. And I just wasn't sure like I had some water, but having some kind of um electrolyte gel midway through, I think, is gonna give me that uh, you know, that energy boost to kind of keep going because I finished the race and I and I still did pretty well, but I didn't feel strong. And I and I want to feel a little bit stronger as that race uh goes on, as as again, you know, on that third loop there. So um I'll be looking for uh to kind of refine my my fueling strategy because I've got a big race in September. Um and it's that I think that's like a 23k um trail race as well with Five Peaks. So Five Peaks has got awesome trail races, definitely go check them out, fivepeaks.com. Absolutely amazing. Go to our website, you get a discount when you go to sign up for one of those runs. But they're they're just so well run, so well organized. They're really great, fun events. Um so yeah, that's what I'm doing. I think I might pop in a run before I do that as a little bit of like a warm-up and a training. Um, but uh, but yeah, kind of that's that's where I'm at. Lots of things happening with running scare media, lots of things happening with my own running. Uh, but uh I think I want to shift gears and and this a special episode because it is a first climber, and I think that's really exciting. And um, you know, I'll introduce him in a minute. Well, I'll introduce him right now. It's Kyle Brockstroman, and he's coming to us from Las Vegas, so Nevada. It's and you know, we're actually gonna have well, we did this as a video podcast, so we have a bunch of clips where you can actually see where he's at at Calico Basin. It was completely new for me to interview in this way, but we've you know, you listen to the interview because we've got some surprises along the way. Um really entertaining and really informative if you are interested in that space. Um but he's just a really interesting guy with a story to tell, so that's what we do here. We tell stories. So sit back, relax if you're driving, if you're going for a run, if you're sitting out in your backyard and it's a nice day, and you're just sort of putting on a podcast to listen. Um just hit play and away we go. So on today's show, we are climbing with our first climber. Welcome to the show, Kyle Broxerman. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Kyle. Amazing that you can make time uh, you know, to spend with us today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

I'm doing well. Thank you so much for uh reaching out and inviting me. Uh yeah, I'm uh I'm stoked to be here.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

So, you know, just as we start, you know, we we do this, um, we do our conversation in two different segments here. The first segment is just to kind of give a sense of where you're at, what you're doing, you know, what the goal is, what the fitness goal is. So can you give us an idea? Actually, just tell us, where are you? Where are you climbing today?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Uh yeah, so I am sitting um about a couple feet, a couple hundred, maybe like 150 feet up uh on a rock kind of edge, um, looking down at an area called Calico Basin. Um it's about you know 20 minutes from my house, which um I'm very grateful for. I have access to some of the world's best climbing out here. And uh one of the unique things about Calico Basin is that it's this little quaint community with really expensive houses. Um every time I look down at the valley floor, I I see my future because uh if I were to ever like own a house, like this is where I'd want it. Um and yeah, it's just uh it's surrounded by just man, um, just a beautiful assortment of white, red, and pink sandstone rocks that I I spend my life climbing.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yeah, if you you know the the Southwest has that allure, it's just um it's it's such a rugged landscape and it's it's absolutely beautiful. I actually had a a friend that just got back from a golf trip of all things and was down in in Nevada and down in Utah, and just absolutely beautiful. I I have a question. Um if you and and there's probably so many places to climb if you come down into your area, but is there one, or maybe you're in, maybe you're out there right now, but is there one area that you would need to come down and check out if you were a climber? Let's say you had you know a couple of days to spend in the region, is there one spot that would really is just is just kind of magical and you kind of need to be there?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah, uh so I mean this is it. I'm here. Um if you have a if you have a limited amount of time in Vegas and you're looking to explore kind of like what Red Rock Canyon has to offer, this is the place to start. Um the access is just so amazing. I mean, five minutes off the road and you're in the sandstone wilderness. Um, you know, you have a running audience, and so actually there's this trail out here called Craft Mountain Loop. Um I believe it's about a 5k around the entire mountain. Um it's a great, great running loop. Um you can choose to go, you know, um out left and around or out right and around. Um, and you either choose to go up a really steep hill to start or come down that hill at the end. Um and it offers just like gravel, gravel wash running, boulder hopping, um like a maybe class one scrambling. Um quite an adventure for someone who might just be sticking to to trails or or road running. So definitely uh highlight this area for sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

You know what, you you see like um like lots of climbing down in in the southwest, and there's other areas in in the country where there's mountainous regions. I I just have like a quick question. I I just was thinking this as you were talking about it. Is it is it basically just as um that there's no trees and and everything is accessible as opposed to like let's say climbing in Appalachia or is there something that I'm not getting there in terms of why everybody climbs in in that one reason? Is it just because it's um I guess the topography and the landscape just lends itself to accessibility?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

I think accessibility is one thing, and two, I just think it's quantity. I think there is so much rock out in Nevada, California, Oregon. I would say especially California and like this area of Nevada, anywhere around the Eastern Sierra, I mean, the amount of rock is just like unfathomable. There's more rock than anybody could climb in a lifetime, even here just outside of Vegas. And so it's like not and and the access to that quantity is in Vegas at least. I mean, you've got a 20-minute drive to an amount of climbing that one could not climb in their lifetime.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

I've I've done a little bit of surfing in my day. What's the etiquette? What's the code on on the on the rock in terms of who gets first? Like, is it just first there, first up? Do you do you let more experienced climbers bypass? Is it is there is there localism on rock? I'm I'm curious about that.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Uh it really depends on the discipline of climbing that you're going after. So there's bouldering, sport climbing, and multi-pitch trad climbing. Um each lends to its own, I guess, form of ethics. Um I lend more towards the multi-pitched trad climbing side. Um that is kind of like 95% of my climbing.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Um let's see. So sport climbing, you know, you're all at a crag, you're all standing around the base of a single cliff band, and everybody's trying different routes. Some people will camp on a single route for a long time and be, you know, quote unquote what it's called projecting, which means trying over and over again the same route until you get it done. Um, sometimes it takes weeks, sometimes that takes months, sometimes it takes three, three climbs in a single day. You know, it just depends on the route. Uh, trad climbing, you know, multi-pitch trag climbing, it's very much a first come, first serve. So you know, you usually hike anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour to get to the base. And then once you're at the base, whoever's there first has priority. Um, but I've had multiple situations where I get there, sometimes I sprint past people on the trail to get to the base first. Um that's that's pretty exciting. And then, you know, the pressure there is if you do pass somebody on the trail and get on the route, you better be fast on the route too. Because if you pass somebody on the trail, get on route, and then slow down and log jam the route, it's pretty bad ethics. I have had some people like get to the base just after me, and then there's a conversation to be had. Um, you know, if the if the route if the party behind you is expressing that they'd like to move quickly, um, they'll usually bring it up. And so you start talking style, and you're like, okay, well, how are you climbing it? Are you site linking pitches? Are you simulclimbing? Have you climbed this route before? You're trying to gauge their comfortability and their experience. Um, and hopefully you can have like an honest conversation about what makes the most sense to keep the less the least amount of traffic and the flow going on the route. And so most of the times, if someone brings that up and is talking about passing you, um they they mean business and you just let them go. And every time I've done that, they just like disappear off into the horizon and I never see them again. It's interesting. And I I've been that person before too. I've been someone who's been like, look, uh, we're moving quick, you guys kind of look like you might not be. Can you please let us pass? And uh I'd say in the multi-pitched trad climbing world, people are extremely friendly and and understanding about that.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

And and just for the listeners, you know, we have an adventure audience, um uh, you know, snowboarders, a lot of runners. Just can you tell us, because it because it's your discipline, um how would you characterize trad climbing? Characterize? Yeah, what what what is trad climbing? That's that's how you that that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Trad climbing. So bouldering, I'll just I'll describe all three disciplines so each has context to the other. Um bouldering is what you think it is. So there's a boulder on the ground, it can be anywhere from 10 to 30 to 50 feet sometimes, and you climb it without ropes to the top. Um, and you usually uh put crash pads underneath, and so if you fall, you land on mats instead of breaking your ankles. Uh, usually you have a spotter, um, and usually it's a combination of a small amount of extremely hard moves. And so bouldering is like the the performance side of climbing, like pure performance. There's no adventure, there's no um route finding, it's just can I try really hard for a short amount of time on this rock? Can I have perfect movement execution? Then you have sport climbing where you start to climb higher cliff bands, and that's where people have put bolts in the wall before you. They've established a route and you're clipping those bolts on the way up. Um extremely safe. Bolts don't pull. As long as you know how to lead climb, sport climbing is extremely safe. Um you have triad climbing. Trad climbing is where you're going up a route that's been done before, but sometimes there's no hardware at all. There's no trace of someone ever having climbed it before because what we do is we bring gear, it's called clean gear, and so you are able to pull it out of the wall after you use it, and so you don't leave anything behind. And uh that lends towards a different kind of movement, so you do a lot of less face climbing and you do more crack climbing and corner climbing. Um, and so you know, I'm placing what are called cams and nuts in the wall as protection. And I guess the one kind of, I guess you could say, sketchy thing about trag climbing is that those protections can pull out of the wall. They can fail. And so that's why we we say that we build safety systems and we always have multiple pieces of protection in between us and injury or death.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

That's interesting. When I was doing my research for the episode, I was I was just going through like copious amounts of your video. And so when you put those you put those bolts in and those those nuts, you're taking those out. Is that what you're saying? As you're climbing up, so you're not leaving like that bolted trail.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Correct. So you climb in a party of two when you're multi-pitch climbing. So you both start at the base, one person takes one end of the rope, and then another person takes the other end of the rope. And then um yours your belayer, your person who's protecting you and basically managing the amount of slack in the system between you and him or her. Um you the leader is the person who's going up first, climbs up to the top and gets to a point that is the top of what is called the pitch, or the length of climbing you would do in one section. Um you're placing gear along the way and clipping the rope to it to protect you if you fall. And then when you get to the top, you either use an an established anchor that might be like two bolts, or you build your own anchor out of the gear that you brought. You fix the rope from above so that the belayer can climb up safely, being fixed from above, and you are now managing the slack from the top. And then since they're secured from above, they're able to pull out all the protection that I placed to protect me on the way up. And so that just that system repeats over and over and over again until you get to the top.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

You know, that's interesting. That um that must be that partnership must be very important in terms of who you were, in terms of the trust, the tr the trust factor, in terms of the skill factor. Like you're basically entrusting your life to uh the the person you're working with and and vice versa. Um I want to get into that a little bit later on, but but just you know what I mean, uh I want to segue back just real quick. So what do you what are you doing today? You got something a little bit special for us? You kind of mentioned you're gonna be doing something as through our talk, maybe you're doing it right now. So what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 18:26

So I haven't started yet. I was waiting for your uh your go-ahead. Um but I am standing at the base of a route called Physical Graffiti. Um it's a 255-foot 5'6. Um so people who aren't familiar with climbing grades, they range from 5'2 to 515. And that is basically just represents the difficulty of movement that is required to successfully climb the route. Um you probably heard, your your audience has probably heard what scrambling is, right? Yes. Okay, so scrambling, there's different classes. There's third class, fourth class, and fifth class. Umce you get past fifth class, that becomes climbing. And that becomes so fifth class, right? The next step above fifth class is five point one. Then it's five point two, then it's five point three, all the way up to five fifteen. And so that's where that transition happens from hiking to scrambling to climbing. And so I'm gonna be on a five-six today. Um yeah, I've climbed it many times before. And uh yeah, I'm gonna be doing it without ropes today.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And it's safe, and we're I mean, uh safe. Uh yeah, safe is in I've climbed this so many times that uh the chances of me falling are zero. And you know, I'm gonna climb smooth and slow and thoughtful and talk to you the whole time, and the holds are huge, and I have zero concerns about anything happening. Um and it's also, I guess, like risk management, right? Like it's a sunny day, there's no chance of wind, there's no chance of rain. Um, this is a trade route, so this is a route that is climbed, gosh, thousands of times a season, and so there's no loose rock on it. Um and it's something I've done before. Um, I'm not climbing something new. Um, but I mean I think that that's the allure of free soloing, right? It's like you're choosing to do something that has real consequence. Um and that's something I really like in my in my life. Like I ride a street bike to work, I split lanes, I choose, I calculate risk in my life. Um, and it makes me feel alive. Not in the sense that I'm defying death and risking my life, but the fact that I can navigate that that way of life and exist in that space still feeling calm and safe and in control. Um, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

And that's a perfect segue. Um Kyle, take me back to take me back to the beginning of the story. Um, you know, childhood, your your kind of your your trait profile um in terms of certainly informing your your life outlook now. Did you have this as a child? Is this something that was instilled with you from your parents? Adventure, calculated risk. How did you know was how did this all come about? What was it what was it like for you at the beginning um growing up?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Um let's see. I started climbing, so if I am uh a little slower to speak, then that's why. But let's see, as a child, I picked up sports pretty early. Um my parents put me in like every sport you can imagine soccer, baseball, football, lacrosse, like everything. And part of it was exposure, right? Like what is this kid do? At and I think one of the things that I showed a proclivity for uh really early on is just running. I was a really good runner. Um and so when I was in middle school my parents put me in track and field, and uh my main events were uh they were the 800, the mile, and the two mile. And I stuck with that all the way through high school. I uh kind of ran competitively in high school, I guess if you could say that, um, and uh really loved the 5K and uh did let's see I got state championships. I ran a 1538 5k for my like peak debut. My fastest mile time is 439. Oh wow and so yeah, I like got really good at running, but then after that I just got tired of it. Um I just beat myself down in the athletic competition and I just got like it just it lost its allure for me, and so I switched to like mud runs, triathlons, um, like tough motors, Spartan races, those kinds of things. And I placed well in my age group in a couple of them. Um and then I got into like regular lifting, um, hypertrophy work. I just as you can imagine as an endurance athlete, I was pretty pretty thin, and I'm like 6'2, so I had a pretty thin build and I was ready to kind of fix that. And so I like went to the gym, got muscles, and then I found climbing around the same time as CrossFit, and both of those worlds have kind of blended uh ever since, and I've been climbing for about 12 years now. Um, but so that's my background in fitness, my background in risk management, I guess. I don't know. Um I've always been someone who tests their boundaries, whether for good or bad. It's gotten me into some trouble with the law. Um I just like to know what's possible. I like to see what the edge feels like, tastes like, what it is. And sometimes that edge pushes back on me and I have to recalibrate, you know, where my edge lies. But I think I'll always find that edge and dance with it.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Um was that go ahead. Was that intrinsic from from early on? Did you just feel that from within? Like, you know, so often um, you know, you like there's like in different industries, there's like the you know, the 10% of innovators in any space, right? That that are doing exactly what you're talking about. They're pushing the edge, they're trying to take things as far. And many, many times it's just intrinsic. Like they're just that's how they're wired. It sounds like you were like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So I had a funny story when I was a kid. I think I was maybe one or something like that, and I wasn't allowed to touch the records. And you were my parent. What's that?

SPEAKER_03 25:08

No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

It's just funny. It's good. You remember it at one, it's great. Well, I mean, this is a story that's been repeated to me, so uh I was one, not allowed to touch the records, but I see that my mom is breastfeeding my newborn brother, and so I'm like, she can't, she can't get up, because then the baby will cry. And so I thought I saw an opportunity to touch the records without any consequences. And so I just like tick my finger, I look at my mom directly in the eyes, and I slowly move my finger closer and closer to the records. My mom keeps telling me, don't touch them, you know what's gonna happen. And I take my calculated risk and I touch them anyway. I just touch them with one finger, and my mom gets up, pulls my brother off the breast, the baby starts screaming, she walks me over to time out, and then I sit there and I take my punishment. Uh, and just quietly take my punishment, but I think the it's just a clear representation of like who I am and who I was. Um I'm always there to test the boundaries and see what the what they really are.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

When I was, you know what, it's like uh I get my wife into the podcast whenever I whenever I can. She's got the exact same story that uh my father-in-law tells me when she, you know, she was like she was told not to do something and then she took her finger. I can't it was like a TV or something, and then like just moved it right like a millimeter from I'm Canadian, so I'll talk in uh metric, um a millimeter from the TV and just like stared at her right in the eye. Just like, you know, you can't do anything. You told me not to touch it, I'm not gonna touch it. But uh, you know, so like okay, so so you start and and so like your athletic and and a runner, an incredible running time, by the way, is my I wish I could do that or have done that. But then I mean it's been two decades since then. So who who who introduces you to climbing? Is it a natural progression? And it's interesting you talked about the the synthesis between like intersectionality between crossfit and climbing world. I kind of want to touch on that in a in a minute, but how do you get going in in the climbing? Is there a mentor? Do you go to a club? Do you go to a class? Did somebody how did that get going?

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, so I started climbing at a bouldering gym um in Carlsbad, California. I just uh I think I saw it and I was just like that looks cool, let me try it out. I go in and I immediately got hooked by the movement. I just love the movement. You're swinging around on these plastic holds, doing this this thing that just seems so ridiculous. It just felt like playing, you know what I mean? Um and I love that word. Um I think that I don't think we play enough as adults. Um and I think that climbing really uh really allows that to happen for me. I just I mean right now I'm just I'm standing like I don't know probably 80 feet off the ground right now. I'm just playing. I'm playing on rocks, you know? It's just uh it's magical. Um and so yeah, I like I started bouldering, and then I had a friend who I a co-worker and she was a climber too, and she's like, you need to go check out Mesa Rim, which is a different gym in uh Incinitas. And once I walked into that gym, my life changed. I mean, you know, a bouldering gym is like 15-foot walls, really small, kind of like a garage. And this gym was this gym was a mega gym, like 65-foot lead walls. You could climb with ropes. There were classes, there was yoga classes, like people were whipping in the gym. It was just oh man, it was mind-blowing. And that's when I really got the bug for climbing. And I like I took a lead course, I taught myself how to climb on ropes. Um, I just dedicated myself to climb at the gym and get you know up to that 5'10 level, and then I uh immediately started taking it outside. I uh I have an outdoor background. My parents like took me to Joshua Tree a bunch as kids. I would scramble around on rocks, and so I had that natural affinity for the outdoors and for moving on rock already, and I just like knew immediately, I was like, okay, I need to take the skill and take it outside. And so I uh I kind of was my own mentor in a way. I would just find people that was willing and ballsy enough to come out with me. Um, I had like for trag climbing specifically when like using the gear, um, I had one mentor show me how to place gear, how to build an anchor uh for one day, and then I kind of just took that skill set and ran with it. Um, for better or worse, I'm not suggesting that that is a a way you should approach climbing because I'm lucky to be here, to be honest. A lot of close calls, a lot of just like unknowingly pushing that boundary and not realizing what consequences lie on the other side. Um and uh yeah, so that I mean that's how I got into climbing.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Okay, this this might seem like a nebulous question, but I I want to insert it in here. You know, you talked about you go to the gym and then you switch gyms and then you know you take a course and then you kind of get out on on, you know, get out onto the rock, out into the to the real world climbing. Is there a point where, or maybe there's multiple points, where you really have to, I don't want to say take a risk, but to to increase and to improve at climbing, you have to really kind of get up to the edge, like take a much more like I guess what I'm trying to say is that can it always be safe in your progression, or does do you have to, in order to progress through the sport, do you have to kind of get close to that edge sometimes? Great question.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

And uh the short answer is no, you do not have to take risk to poor to progress as a climber. This is something that I thought was true in the beginning of my climbing. And I think risk is, I mean, unfortunately, I'm kind of playing into this here by free soloing on a podcast, but risk is glorified. Um it just is, unfortunately, it sells. It's to me, free soloing is the easiest translation for people to understand what climbing is that don't climb, because the risk is just so blatantly obvious. It's like, wow, that person is so high, if he falls, he dies. And so it's just like transmuting climbing to people who don't climb, free solo is the shortest gap. However, it makes us look crazy, it makes us look like we're risk-taking crazy people, and you know, you know, Alex Honnold is uh guilty of this for sure, but it doesn't have to be that way. Um, climbing can be really boring, uh, at least from a viewing perspective. Um, and so no, to answer your question, no, it does not require risk. Um, you can you can take baby steps and expose yourself to climbing slowly and smartly. Um and I think the the biggest thing is there's two kinds of risks. There's perceived risks and then there's real risks. And I think the biggest skill you can learn as you're developing as a climber is differentiating the difference between the two. We have a lot of perceived risk in our minds when we start climbing, and a lot of that risk isn't real. But at the same time, the opposite can happen. Sometimes we aren't even aware of the risk that we're in, and that's the most dangerous part, and that's where I was. I in the beginning didn't realize the real risks that I was putting myself in by climbing the way that I did, and I got lucky and I had an accident that really taught me the real consequences, but yeah, I I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

No, no, it absolutely does. It's really interesting about perceived risk and real risk. And I would just think with something, and and I want to kind of get it into it with my next question, but just something is technical and some something is process oriented, right? Like you just you must have so much knowledge that you need to filter through, right? In terms of when you're when you're when you're moving through and and calculating risk. But I I think this is a this is a nice kind of um segue into kind of like a macro question here. Okay. So uh I know like you do a little bit of photography and some automotive, um, and uh with your climbing and your 12 years of climbing, uh how did you how did you build your process out for deciding trad and and the types of gear you use, the training, the types of rock that you're going to attempt. Like how did how you I guess how did you develop your style? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Um so, real quick before I answer that question, I'll just give you and everybody else an update on where I'm at. I'm at. I'm about 100 feet up. Um this route is is divvied up into two pitches. So pitch one is halfway and then the other pitch is the other half. And I'm sitting here looking at um the chains that people use to anchor themselves in about halfway up the route. And I'm about to kind of continue up the uh rest of the climb here. Amazing. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Yeah, no, I just want to screw you, what's the temperature?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

What's the it's like 70s? The sun's getting pretty hot though.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

And then once are you okay, this may be a very silly question, but I have to ask it now just because we're, you know, you you are um are you kind of at the midway point of your own. Essentially, yes. Okay, so how are you gonna get back down?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Uh it's a walk-off.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Oh, it is. That's okay. So it's a climbing walk. Correct, yes. And that's how a lot of tried climbs are. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was I just I was I was thinking about that. But um, yeah, like how did you um you're an interesting guy. How did you develop your style for climbing?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Um style. So style is an interesting word. I guess I heard style defined as the like this the way we choose to execute performance in climbing. And for me, it's mostly about discipline. Like the discipline of climbing, of trad climbing. I like trad climbing more than I do sport climbing. I just love the adventure. Um I like to to break down climbing into like four words that mean something to you, and for me those words in order of importance are adventure, partnerships, spirituality, and performance. And so for me, the reason why I climb is for the adventure. I just love I love the adventure. I love going to new places. Um It's just uh It's just magical. Um and then the partnerships. The partnerships. You like you said before, you must really trust somebody with your life, and that's so true. Um there is so much to be required out of a partner, especially for long days, hard routes. And I've had some really been fortunate enough to have some amazing, amazing partnerships in my life that have just really shaped who I am and who I am as a climber. And then spirituality. Um I'm not particularly religious, but I am spiritual. I know that's pretty cliche to say these days, but I feel most connected to a higher power in myself when I'm outdoors. When I'm trying hard, when I'm pushing myself outdoors, when I'm exploring new areas, when I'm testing the edges of like what I'm capable of. And that's what climbing gives to me. Performance is a byproduct for me of those other three pillars. I like to try hard. I like to try things that challenge me, but that's not why I climb. I don't search for the what am I, what is the limit of my human capability as a climber? That is not something that that motivates me.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

I honestly I love that you have a mantra like that, you know, like as I'm a I'm an educator and and we sort of like exist on those pillars and everybody has their own style of of teaching and like that honestly that resonates with me. And especially the spirituality part, you know, that's the reason why I like to get out as as well, not climbing, but running or whatever it is that I'm doing is being on the land. You know, that's a natural thing to to do as humans, right? And that's a natural, and that's just a natural place for us to be. So that that makes complete sense to me. And like you have a very yeah, man, you have a very clear reason for doing it, right? Um, which I think is which I think is amazing. So okay, so I asked you a question, or I'm gonna ask a question about um the flight plan. Okay. So I know um, you know, cave diver, well, there's basically a flight plan, you know, for for those listening, it's sort of like setting up a plan before you go in, uh, especially if there's gonna be like technical things that could exist. Uh, you know, I was talking to um big face snowboarder a couple months ago about you know what like how they're gonna look at it. And and interestingly enough, he was telling me sometimes it could take like three to four days looking at something, coming back to it, looking at it from a different angle. What is your like take us through your flight plan? Especially, and let's position this if you're gonna do something that you have not done before, um, take us through that process. Are you how long are you looking at it? Are you looking at maps? Are you looking at maybe data that's been um tracked before? You know, do you are you looking for a specific weather condition? Take us through that process.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

So it really depends on the objective. Um the more, like the higher you are into the mountains and the more variables you're introducing to your objective, i.e. wind, weather, storms, lightning, rockfall, snow melt, avalanches, those are the hazards that require a lot of preparation. Um I don't particularly climb objectives with lots of what's called objective hazard. Um and so for me, it's a little bit more simple. Um, do I have good weather? Is it gonna be sunny? I'd say out here in Red Rock, the biggest thing to pay attention to is the wind. You don't want to be up on a rock face when it's really, really windy. It's just, I mean, you can do it, it's just not very fun. Um and then in terms of the route, like approaching a route that I've never done before, you know, the funny thing about climbing is there's this, there's this style. It's called on-site, and it's exactly what it sounds like. It's upon sight. So can you climb a route with very minimal information and execute the moves correctly the first time without falling? That is what's called on-site climbing. And to me, that is the purest expression of the of the sport. Can you show up to a challenge and perform exactly what it requires of you first go? Um, I love that. And so I would say what defines on-site, like how much information can you have, is a little up for debate. Uh, for me, I don't really like to read uh descriptions online, like, but I will look at a map. I will look at like how many pitches, where are the anchors, so I don't get lost. Um but it when it and also what kind of gear do I need to bring to to climb safely. And there's information about every route online uh on a mountain on a app excuse me, on an app called Mountain Project. Um, it'll show you as much information about the route as possible. There's app there's descriptions, there's comments of people who have done it before. So I mean you can get it lost in the weeds there and digest as much information about the route as possible. But I try to just approach it from what gear do I need, what kind of rope do I need, how what gear do I need to climb it safely, and then how do I get down, and then a general sense of like where the route goes. Um but other than that, I do like to try to approach climbs with the least amount of information possible so that I have that that pure adventure, raw experience of figuring everything out on the fly rather than feeling like it's uh familiar terrain by preparation.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

That's so fascinating. I I I just wouldn't wouldn't think you would have answered it that way, but like I it makes sense, especially from where you're you know from from where you're coming. I would you even um would you pop into like a if it was something new and something maybe you were pushing yourself, would you pop into a local you know climbing group and and maybe you know get some kind of anecdotal information from them or or not even that? Just sort of sort of do your own thing, follow your own your own process and plan?

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Um I'm more of a follow-your-own process and plan. I think that a lot of the resources are online if you are looking for them. And then if you are going, like if you're a top elite performing climber and you're going after a climb that's like very rarely being done, you would go talk to the person who's done it before and be like, hey, what do I need to know about this? You know, how do I not die on this route, essentially? And that would be that would be the amount of information I'd be looking for.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

So, you know, you mentioned um earlier in the interview that you had some close calls, right? And then you you had an accident. Um question about that. Uh you know, you had a you had a bad fall and you had uh broken bones. So I I I just I need to ask it because it's a is a question that I that I do ask a lot of um a lot of guests that come on that have had a situation like that. Like, what what did you learn from from that and how did you change your activity and how did you change your climbing post injury?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah, so the funny thing about this story is that um I was in the middle of careers trying to figure out where I wanted to go with my life, and um at the time my Instagram was like just starting to feel like it had some traction, and I was like, I love climbing, maybe I can just do this. And so I was like, I need to become a better climber, and out of ignorance and stoke, I thought that that just meant climbing harder grades, and I didn't even know what climbing harder grades meant. I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna get prepared and I'm gonna learn better systems and I'm gonna learn how to protect harder climbs. I just was like, I'm gonna go after harder climbs, and so I just picked a random hard climb trad line and I just got in over my head. But the weird thing was is that a week before the accident, I was climbing this route and I got myself into a pickle and I got really scared. Um really scared. I have GoPro footage of it I could share with you. Um like off-route above a piece of like a nut that I placed that I didn't trust. I for some reason climbed past it, and I was just like, I was about to fall, you know, like it was coming. And I was climbing with my girlfriend, my now fiance, and I remember going like I'm gonna fall, babe. And uh I let go and I fell, I screamed, I was so scared, I thought I was gonna die, but then that nut that I placed held. And uh something weird happened that day. The the fear that I had about the gear pulling, about me dying, like me getting injured, it all went away. I was just like, oh, that fear is misplaced. Gear's good. I can trust this stuff. I should just be able to fall whenever I want. That's what I that's the lesson I took from that. And so I walked into the accident day with that mentality, and so I get up above this tiny nut. I mean, this thing is rated for static placement rather than dynamic. Um, and I just you know got to a hard section, and instead of panicking, I just looked down at my piece and I was like, okay, I'm gonna fall. And I just choose chose to let go of the wall on purpose. No fear, no concern for my safety because I thought I was safe. And then that nut broke. Um the system shock loaded that first piece. I fell probably like you know, six feet to that piece. Um, the nut stayed in the wall, but the metal wire that I was clipped to broke, like completely broke, and then the two subsequent pieces below failed. Um, I landed standing like a pencil from about 30 feet up onto a rock. Um, miraculously didn't break anything but my ankles. My right calcaneous bone basically turned to dust. My surgeon said that I had about 300 separate pieces in that little section where your heel is. And then I also broke my talus bone on my left foot. Um, wheelchair for three months. Um Yeah, it was rough, pretty dark. Um, but you know, it was um it was the start of a lot of really good things. Um it was a really harsh lesson. Like I said in the beginning of this podcast, I'm one who pushes his boundaries, and that was a that was a boundary that pushed back. Um and the lesson was that climbing is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing, quite honestly. And uh yeah, I uh I jumped back on the horse. I started climbing back in the gym before I even got out of my boot. Um, and then immediately just kind of like threw myself at the problem of trusting gear. I went out to a crag and built some specific systems to test my gear with a backup, and I was reinforced that the gear was good and that I could trust it, and I just started taking the sharp end again, but I just started back from the bottom. Like I was, you know, pushing into the 11s at the time of my accident, 5'11s, and I went back to 5'7 and I started climbing 5'7s, and I rebuilt that pyramid of performance um with this new mentality of climbing is dangerous, I need to make sure that my gear is good, and I need to understand that the risk that I'm in. And uh I don't know, I think it's been about four years since my accident, and now I'm in the 512s. Um I'm uh you know, climbing things that I thought were impossible before, and this is all post-accident. Um and the accident also birthed the podcast that I run, so um, a lot of good things came from that. Um it's been a blessing hidden in the disguise as uh as a traumatic injury. Do you do you get scared? Do you still get scared? Are you still there? Yeah, I'm here.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Okay, cool, cool, cool. Um scared. I do not like being scared. Um to me in climbing, if you're scared, you're doing something wrong. Um I love feeling in control. I like feeling, you know, even if I think I might come off, I'm still taking that calculated risk. And I I think that I'm safe if I do fall. I no longer ever put myself in a situation where my chances of coming off the rock are high, and the consequences for coming off the rock are also high. For me, I only push myself when I know the consequences are next to nothing. Um and yeah, and so I I mitigate the risk, I mitigate my experience to make sure I never get scared. Because to me, when you're scared, you don't perform well. You don't have a calm heart rate, you don't have calm breathing, you come out of that flow state, you come out of that focus needed to perform at such a high level. Um, and I don't like that experience at all. And so I would I would categorize, I wouldn't say I'm ever fearful or scared, but I do get nervous. I think that before like a big objective where there's lots of unknowns and I'm not sure like how I'm gonna perform or how I'm gonna mitigate the risk or you know what I'm gonna do. You know, there's all those unknown factors that lead to anxiety or nervousness. But once I start climbing and I start moving on rock, that all usually goes away and I just snap right into a flow state pretty quick.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Pull the camera back a little bit, right? And just kind of look at climbing now. Do you think, you know, and you mess you mentioned something, you know, about a Hunneld and the TV specials, and I see I see so much footage of like climbing Everest now, and I know that's completely different than what you do, but like this generation of people getting into climbing, you know, is it to be bigger, is it to be faster, is it to be higher, is it to be, you know, the climbing version of FKTs, or or do you think it it will shift or move into more of like a storyteller's perspective? And that you know, I I think you see a lot of that in trail running now, where uh even um uh even in snowboarding, right? Where it's not just necessarily dropping in on like the highest uh face you possibly can. It's just telling it's more expedition style and storytelling. I'm curious where you s where you think it is. It's three parts where you where you where it is, where you think it might be going, and then maybe how do you see yourself in that in that space?

SPEAKER_01 50:30

So I think I think to uh a second part or third, fourth part to that is where it was. I think climbing was very much about performance, but how hard can we push the sport? What kind of grade can we climb? How how high can we push the grade? And I think that's been the focal point for climbing for a really long time. And I think what's happening now is just like in the other sports, I think that there's so many people entering the outdoor space, including climbing, yeah, that you know, there's something for everybody. And that's what's so beautiful about climbing in the outdoors is there's not one way to do it. You know, it's like someone who has more proclivity for storytelling is going to see climbing through that lens. Um, a big push in climbing right now is endurance. How many pitches, how much feet of climbing can I climb in a single day? It's like, you know, nose in a day, the triple crown, the quad, like these big endurance objectives are what's kind of the new rage, at least being pushed in the media. Um, and so I don't know, I think it's just a natural evolution of the sport. I think as more people come in, you have a more wide variety of kinds of people and the things that they like to do, and they're gonna bring that own artistic expression into the medium of climbing that we all experience. Um for me, I'm a weird blend. Um it's always gonna be about the adventure for me. Yeah. Um, I want to see what I'm capable of. I'm not necessarily here to push the sport. Um, that's not my goal. Um I guess I fit more into the storytelling realm. I like, you know, from earlier on when I first started climbing, I I had this mantra or this vision in mind is I want to share my climbing experiences with the world. Um and that's you know, funny enough, that's kind of what I do with my Instagram. I put a GoPro on my head and I film myself climbing. I'm not talking, I'm not doing some sort of Instagram skit, I'm not, it's not I'm not teaching you anything, I'm not scripting anything, it's just me climbing. And I've done it for so long that I found a very stylistic way of editing the footage so that it's pleasurable to watch. Um and that has kind of been my my uh gift to the community is just letting people experience climbs, like the the climbs, as if it were them. Um, and so I think I'm gonna continue more of that. And also I'd love like I'm a filmmaker by trade. I I live behind a camera, I work in marketing, and so I think I'd like to blend all these skills together: the podcast, interviews, cinematography. I would love to create some sort of documentary about climbing one day.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

I think yours would be amazing. I'm not just saying that because I because I have you on here, because all the things that you mentioned are is what's you know drawn me to want to have you on the show. Um, but also one of the things I've noticed, and it it was a recent video, but I was like transfixed watching it. You were on no no seriously, you were you were on uh you were climbing, and then you were talking about safety, and then you were talking about ropes that were um that could rub against like uh an edge, and then you put tape down it. Like just dude, little simple things like that that it was like, oh, I'm like, wow, this is like A, nice to watch, B, it's like you know, beautiful topography, and it's like I learned something. And I think that that is what you know that's another layer uh into engage with with like the content, and just and you know, actually I have a friend who's a snowboarder does the same kind of thing, just like with some tips with whack, you know, just all these little things that you can that you can do and just sort of slide into the to the content, which I think is which I think is really nice, just layers it up. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Yeah, I think the the one thing I love is that it's real. It's like I didn't plan that. It wasn't scripted. Yeah. Like that was just raw, real risk mitigation.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Yeah. So so two uh two just uh maybe easier ones, right? Because I've asked you a lot about like just getting into the weeds on on the mental side of it, because that's really what I'm interested in and what we're interested here at at running scared. But just what is what is your favorite climb spot and what's the climb you're most proud of to date?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

I love Red Rock Canyon. Um, this is my backyard. I love climbing. There's so many different mediums of rock, but the three main ones are granite, limestone, and sandstone. It's basically what the rock is made of. And I love sandstone. There is something about it. Um, I'm a desert dweller, I love the desert, and so climbing on sandstone is just like home to me. Um, and I love the kind of climbing movement that it lends to. Um, I would say secondary, I love granite climbing. Um, and then least favorite would be limestone. But favorite climb, most proud of. Let's see. Um I just did the nose on Al Cap. That's a pretty big one.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Um, I'm sure people are familiar with that. It's uh a 3,000-foot rock face in Yosemite, the thing you see when you drive in. Yeah. I climbed up the face of that over four days. And then I'll be going back in October to do it in a single day, in a single push. Um, so that'll be like probably my crowning jewel as a climber at that point. Up to this day now, other than the nose, I would say there's a route called Rainbow Wall out here, the original route on Rainbow Wall. It's a thousand-foot climb that has three pitches of 512. And I'd say that is my kind of like proudest achievement as a climber up to this point.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

Amazing. I'm, you know, just um just for context, right? When you just came back from climbing the nose there four days, that kind of, you know, it's a climb, I almost look at it as like an expedition. How what is um like what's the prep like? How long do you have to prepare? I know you talked about how you like to just you're not overly prepare when you go to things. You'll look at maps and you'll have, you know, what do I need for the right gear? What do I need for the right um things that you're bringing in? But you said four days. Are you kind of like, you know, you had that planned out kind of months in advance? Do you're doing some preparatory climbs to get to that point? Like something that big. What for context? How long were you thinking about doing that? How long did you take to kind of prepare from start to beginning? Everything involved.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

I'm a bad person to ask this question. Because I I leaned heavily on my partner who had done it before. Okay, okay. He had all the logistics figured out, he had already done it once, so he knew how much water we needed, he knew how to pack the haul bag. Yeah, stuff like that. He knew the systems, he knew all of that stuff, and so I got the cheat code, and I didn't have to learn any of that on my own. And so, you know, I I have a pretty busy life career-wise. I was out shooting a documentary in the Virgin Islands, I came back, had a huge production week for my marketing job, and then I went straight to the nose. And so I didn't really have a lot of time to prepare or even be in and the mental space to do it. And so it was very much like a pull the roots out of the ground, drive to Yosemite, and didn't do this objective. And uh I did a bunch of online research before. Um, there's a lot of online video resources about aid climbing and big wall systems, and that was the biggest thing for me. Like I know how to climb, but the the systems, the rope management, the gear I was gonna use, the hauling techniques, like those were the things I needed to be familiar with. And so I at least you know took some time and digested that information on the fly and then got to uh got to LCAP and then the first day, it was like a half day, I used as a prep day, and we did the first four pitches where I took the um I took the lead and I practiced my systems, I practiced hauling, and I I just picked it up super quick. I think it took me one pitch to to dial everything in and we were moving super smooth. So um I'm a quick learner. Uh I I took that gamble um and and not being as prepared as I probably should have, but um, it worked out.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

Can we get an update on where you are on the on the climb today?

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Yeah, so I haven't taken my sweet time, but I am literally one, two, three at the top.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Yeah, cue the applause. I am now standing, I am now standing on the summit. And I'm sure the footage is beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

Like, what are you looking at right now?

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Um, so I'm walking up a little bit of like a third class ramp to get to the actual like walk-off, um, so I can sit down and have a good view. And I am looking at, gosh, I mean, just a higher view of what we started with. Yeah, I'm probably another 300 feet off the ground. I can see the entire strip now. I can see Craft Mountain. Just a vast desert landscape of mountains and different colored rock and limestone, wispy clouds in the sky. That's quite that's quite beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

I love that you're I love that you're painting a picture for us. Like often we, you know, when I'm talking to people, it's things that they've done, and you know, I want to get into their mental space, but think about your pillars, right? Spiritualism, is that what you're thinking about right now? Are you are you going through okay? I could have done that a little bit differently, or are are you doing like a self-reflection and appraisal of what you just did, even though you've done it a million times? What do you um I've never free soloed it before? Yeah, so how how how do you would you rate yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Um I mean it went super smooth. I was super confident and casual. I'd say there were two sections that kind of stole my focus from the conversation for maybe like 10-15 seconds, but other than that, I was really connected and flowing, and it was really cool to be able to share that flow state with you in conversation as well as climbing. Um, so definitely something I've never done before, but it was a pleasurable experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

Yeah, thank you. It's amazing. It's funny. You were able to converse the entire time. Like you talk about breathing, you talk about heart rate. Like you to me, your heart rate didn't seem like it was going outside of a zone two, maybe zone three. Like you were very smooth in the answers that you were providing, right? It's not and not at one time did you feel did did you sound out of breath.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

So maybe that nor would I have uh chosen an objective that would have even pushed me in the slightest realm for this kind of thing, you know. Yeah. Today is about that about the conversation, and um, I feel grateful enough to feel comfortable enough on this rock with my body and this kind of grade that it almost just feels like a hike, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

So, you know, you've given us quite a bit of time and an amazing experience this morning. So, like it's thank you so much. I just I really just have one last qu question. I know you talked about um wanting to do maybe a documentary. Um what is next for for you? Is it uh continuing to do the same thing? Is it uh what what is what does the future hold for you in climbing, in adventure, endurance, just in your own journey? Because this really sounds like what I'm taking from this is like you are on a journey, and uh what is the next stop on that journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Uh I'd say the big thing for me is um pivoting to full-time full-time climbing content production. Oh I'm uh I'm I'm reaching out to a bunch of brands soon and basically trying to find sponsors for the show, the podcast that I run, the climbing majority. If anybody's interested in listening to that show, it's basically I steer the lens away from pros and into the everyday climber. Um, and so there's so many of us now, and there's so many crushers and people contributing to the sport in ways that would just go completely unnoticed, and I spend the time to find these people who don't have social media profiles or just don't get the traditional big highlight-honald media attention. Um, and I give them I give them the microphone. Um, so that's what I do. I've been doing it for about four years. So I'm looking for sponsors for both the Instagram channel that I run, Brox Rocks, and the climbing majority. Um I have been working with one for about six months now, and so it's kind of been like my case study, and so I'm looking to expand that uh that service and hopefully get to a point where I can quit my marketing job and switch to full-time content production and uh kind of lean into that and see where that goes. And I think that once I have the free time to dedicate more time to climbing and and content production in the climbing space, that'll be where I have the opportunity to start creating like climbing specific films and and just kind of fully leaning into that pathway.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:28

That's great. The podcast is great, the channel is amazing. I think you're close. So please. Thank you. Everybody listen, listen to the listen to the podcast. Um, you know, follow Kyle. Just I love that you're giving people a platform that normally wouldn't. And um that that's just you just do not see that all the time. So I think that's uh that's amazing. Um from everybody here at Running Scared Media, thank you for joining us. This has been amazing. I've learned so much. I could really I could take another 60 minutes of your time, but I'm gonna honor I can I can't, you know what, just it's very interesting and and your perspective on it is interesting and you're very knowledgeable uh in terms of and very clear-minded about what you're after and what you're what you're doing and your purpose, which uh sometimes is not always evident. But um thank you so much for joining us and uh and we hope to speak to you soon.